Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Waid Talks LSH at Newsarama

First of a two-part interview at:
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=5c4fbab73bf6be4189b516ab73406664&threadid=45372

Challenge: can anyone identify this clue in issue #10?

NRAMA: That said, to date, there hasn’t been much talk of how the Legion formed, as it was fully functional with the first issue, and even had groupies. Will this be something you’re telling later?

MW: There’s an enormous clue in issue ten, but so far, I don’t think anyone’s picked up on it. Barry and I know the team’s origin; we’re just trying to figure out the best time and place to tell it--probably before our second year is through.

Cells in the clubhouse?

Trom,

It's been a few days, but the only thing I can remember are the cryptic comments about the former use of the Legion HQ. Seems like it was a detention center of some sort. So here is my speculation:

The Legion founders were already rebellious non-conformist malcontents who were confined in the in the juvenile hall .. of space!, and somehow the inmates literally ended up in charge of the asylum. Because the founders are well-connected (at least Saturn Girl is), the rebellious kids were allowed to get away with this and turn juve into LSH HQ.

I fits. They could have been jailed themselves for troublemaking, or they broke somebody out of jail. If the latter, my guess would be RJ Brande.

Seems to make sense. The SP was portrayed as much more hard-line towards them than the UP council. They seem to even have some sort of UP sanction.

The jailhouse story sounds like the best bet. I just hope there was a quarkasaur involved.

Sounds like there is no more R.J. Brande, at least not part of the origin. Of course, these writers lie like thieves...

yeah, i've read it. Interesting interview. I can't wait to read what Waid has to say in the next part.

i'm searching my issue but i can't find what is this big clue.

Where's the real Brainiac when you need him, right??

Darn those writers and their vaugeness.

The Legion was formed from the Whirled Brains Fan Club. Trust me on this one!

Nah, it was the Best Brains Fan Club, in the not-too-distant future.

Former juvenile prisoners? Hmmm?

Man what really irks is Waid continues to praise Levitz and how much the Levitz Legion sold. Why doesn't seem more like the Levitz Legion then? He says this is a brand new Legion with a little from all Legions. No. It's the Adventure Legion...the Adventure lineup, the Adventure HQ, and the Adventure ages. Let me tell you something 14 to 17 year old kids don't know squat. You want a real youth revolution get a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds...they will conquer a counrty. bah!

Part Two of the interview is up:
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Legion/Waid_LegionII.htm

MAJOR spoilers for issue #11, and a full-size picture of the cover.

Tromium beat me to the post... doh...

Oh well that roll call page is jarring. I'm still not convinced either way.

Guesses on the identities of these Legionnaires?

Insanity Princess Projectra

Switching sides: I'll go with Jan and his amoral view of change as a constant.

Romance: I hope its Brainy and newly un-deceased Nura.

I'll give the most obvious guesses, not because I think that's what's going to happen, but just to clear the decks:

Insane: Brainiac 5
Switches Sides: Invisible Kid
Romance: Projectra and Brin

But let's try this:

Insane: Star Boy
Switches Sides: Element Lad
Romance: Brainiac 5 and Dream Girl

I hope that they don't kill anyone right away. I'm so tired of death in comics right now.

Besides, if they killed a character right now, would you be affected because: a) you have come to care so much about the character in the last 10 issues; or b) because you cared about the character pre-boot (or pre-pre-boot) and mourn the loss of a character who didn't survive the first year of the re-launch?

That's what I hated so much about the death of Gim Allon in the last Legion series. They never gave us a chance to care one way or the other about the character before they killed him off. It was done strictly for the shock value.

If you want to shock me nowadays, you have to do so by providing consistently good stories and art

My guesses:

Goes insane - Chameleon or Ultra Boy (powers run amok)
Switches sides - Karate Kid
Tenuous spark of romance - Projectra and Brin


I was NOT surprised to hear Waid admit he wasn't exceptionally fond of Triplicate Girl. Whether intentional or not, it shows through in her characterization. Based on what he said, who do you think are his other, less-loved Legionnaires?

Shrinking Violet
Bouncing Boy
Matter-Eater Lad

Three of four guess each, with most likely to least.

Insane: Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, Ultra Boy, Phantom Girl (won't be Brainiac since that's been done to death already)

Switches sides: Sun Boy, Ultra Boy, Element Lad, Chameleon

Romance: Brainy & Nura, Val & Tinya, Ayla & flavor of the month. (I'm counting Jekki & Brin as a couple, already)

Maybe, but I was referring specifically to this statement:

"I’ve deliberately brought to the fore some characters - like Triplicate Girl - who I’ve not considered very much over the years because it’s forced me to think more deeply about them."

So, I'm guessing Dream Girl, Star Boy and Karate Kid. Coincidentally, none of these three gained entry to the Legion during his 1994-95 postboot run. He's also said in the past he's not a Timber Wolf fan, but Barry is.

Wasn't it Waid who killed off Gim Allon in the last incarnation of Legion? If so, we seem to be seeing quite a bit of him this time around.

Stern & Peyer killed Gim but, yup, Waid mentions Gim as another character he hasn't paid that much attention to in the past, and his postboot depiction of Leviathan was hardly flattering.

Waid killed Kid Quantum and Apparition during his previous tenure.

KC Carlson mandated Kid Q's death (but Waid said he enjoyed writing it). Tinya, I believe, was never meant to stay dead, though I do recall him calling her a "snooty cheerleader" or something like that.

I hardly think he ever cared much for Laurel Gand, who replaced his beloved Supergirl.

Insane: Dream Girl (temporarily loss of precog drives her batty)

Switches Sides: Imra (Are you all assuming this means from LSH to Terra Firma? I think it means from Brainy to Cos or Brainy to Cos. If it is to Terra Firma, then I'd say Brin)

Romance: Projectra & Jan (already hinted at by Barry & Mark very early on) or Light Lass and Star Boy

Insane: Invisible Kid (I think he's been pushed too far.)

Switches Sides: ? (one of Terra Firma to the LSH, the one who was reminiscent of Mentalla)

Romance: Reep and Star Boy (just to be different )

What's the red stuff at the bottom of Dream Girl's roll call tag? Interlac?

Arguably insane - Brin, because he's been worked over by Lemnos

Switch sides - Cham, who really is poisonously bitter

Romance - 1st choice, Brainy & Nura; 2nd, Karate Kid and Phantom Girl

The quote says that it is "another" Legionnaire that will switch sides, so I don't think it's a member of Terror Firma.

I've been thinking Cham as well, at least partially for the alien thing.

I like the Brin-as-insane idea as well.

And I really hope it's Brainy and Nura for the romance.

The way I read it (and I may be wrong), is that Waid means two more Legionnaires will find romance in addition to the ones we've already seen. In other words, Brainy & Dreamy and Brin & Jeckie might not count.

The pairings might reveal some...so far we haven't seen any interaction b/t Tinya and Joe and their together (I actually like them apart right now).

I don't know that Brainy and Nura have found romance yet. They were tantilizingly close in issue 10 though..... DAH she can't be dead... you realize I've never felt this strongly about a comic book death or plot element before. Curse you Mark Waid...

I also notice that Ayla was sitting on Micro Lad's chest during the meeting. So in 10 issues has she already pitched to the entire lineup and are we now back to the top of the order again?

I love each of the characters and would have fun writing them all. Too bad I don't have the job.

I'm still holding out hope for Nura.

I'm also going to speculate that the switching sides is a ruse as much as Sun Boy's quitting was.

Am I the only one to notice SENTIENT CLOUD BOY, whose appearance was foretold by Mark Waid 16 months ago?

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Legion/LSH11_11.jpg

Whoa! You are right!

What? Cosmic Boy brings a team to a key world and doesn't inform them that it is the heart of the public service beforehand? I'm stunned.

Insane: Projectra

Switch sides: Ultra Boy

Romance: Micro Lad & Element Lad

Oh no they found the machine of how adults control all underagers. That's one of the silliest pages I've ever seen.

That's it! Sentient Cloud Being switches sides, stops guarding the Public Service and joins the Legion.

Nightcrawler's suggestion that the side switching is a ruse makes sense - maybe Brin has pretended to join Lemnos' group. Can we really have a legionnaire go bad?

I thought this was brilliant, and in all my years of Legion board posting, I've never seen this reason for the fall of the Legion...at least not explained this clearly.

"People keep thinking that, but it's not true. Superboy wasn't even in the group anymore, and hadn't been for years. The fact that he was retconned out of existence shouldn't have had any bearing on future stories. The absence of Superboy was irrelevant because Superboy was already absent. Was it really that essential to say that Superboy inspired the Legion? If it was, why isn't it at the core of this series? Because it's not, that's why.

What really happened was that in 1984 both the Legion and the New Teen Titans went hardcover/softcover for one year, and that meant that in 1985 you could no longer buy an all-new Legion comic on the newstands. People who didn't have access to comic book stores bought subscriptions; people who had access to comic book stores bought it there. Sales of the newsstand reprints tanked and both Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes and Tales of the Teen Titans were eventually cancelled, meaning that both the Legion and the Titans were no longer available on the newsstand in any capacity. This is back when newsstands were the primary source of new comic purchases, before comic books stores dominated the industry. Meanwhile, the X-Men has always been available wherever comic books are sold. If the X-Men had been taken off the newsstands in the mid-Eighties, I don't think it would be the juggernaut that it still is today."

I still think the reboots had something to do with it, because Teen Titans has been able to return to former glories at least twice. But it's hard to argue with all three titles collapsing at the same time.

Comic book fans keep thinking that everyone else thinks like them and that the reason why a given book (or books in general) don't sell is because of what's inside it. For the majority of people, it's always been about distribution and price. DC's three best-selling books in the early Eighties were 1) New Teen Titans, 2) Legion of Super-Heroes, and 3) Batman and the Outsiders. They were all taken off of the newsstands and replaced with reprints, and look what happened to all of them. It was like handing Marvel the ball at the one yard line and saying, "Go ahead, have one on us." It doesn't matter what the product is if people can't find it or afford it.

Also, why exactly didn't I quite understand the Public Service? I've got 2 degrees from a very good school, I teach for a living, and somehow I never figured out that the Legion was rebelling for a good damn reason? I don't want to be spoonfed--I love being dropped into a situation and having to figure it out, but I think Waid needs to spend a little more time explaining what the hell is going on in a little more detail, or at least a little more clearly. He's going to lose/is losing a lot of readers who are quitting because they're scratching their heads more than enjoying a ripping yarn.

Well that's corporate marketing in a conglomerate for you . The decision was probably forced on DC by someone at Warner who had lots of experience in book marketing.

The whole point of comics is wanting to know what happens next, and reading a comic that first came out a year ago just doesn't turn that crank. Of course the was probably lost on the Warner Books guy who suggested this. Not quite as bad as New Coke (because all those guys sold was sugar water, they should have known better) but close.

Did Warner own DC back when the books went to direct market?

I'm proof positive of that argument though. I read LSH and TT, but there was no comic shop within reasonable distance back then, so when they stopped publishing the reprints I was left out. At least until I discovered subscriptions a few years later.

As for people not realising the Legion was rebelling against the Public Service, was it mentioned at all outside of the preview? Maybe it won't be so confusing for people starting with the trade.

DC was about as autonomous from Warner Brothers as they could get back then. I know that people have this perception that because DC is important to them it was important to Warners, but honesty, the people at Warner Brothers could have cared less about DC Comics. I doubt if many of the executives there knew that they owned it. The decision was entirely that of Jenette Kahn and Dick Giordano, who misread the situation. To this day, DC is not part of Warner Brothers' publishing division, but an asset which they own, and the comics are considered loss leaders which keep the characters in the public eye.

The reboots did play a role, but it all began with the hardcover/softcover experiment. In my original post at Newsarama I didn't even mention the fact that the direct sales versions of the Titans and the Legion cost more than their newsstand brethern and that in under half a year both books had new artists. After having been hyped mainly based on the creative teams, many fans felt like they had fallen for a bait and switch (especially subscribers who were on the hook for a full year's worth of issues), and to make matters worse, during the second year of publication (the first year where new issues were only produced for the direct sales market) each book was on its third regular artist. Many people felt like they were paying more and getting less in return and sales slumped as a result, but DC kept making money on the arrangement due to the higher cover price and the non-returnable nature of the books. They didn't realize that if more people start dropping a book than start buying it, you're going to be in trouble before you know it. That's when the audience shrinkage really started to begin.

The reboot of Superman didn't help matters any, but sales before and after the Legion dealt with that event were more or less the same. By comparison, a lot less people were buying the Legion of Super-Heroes after the hardcover/softcover year than before it. By the end of Paul Levitz's run, Legion sales had undergone steady attrition from year to year mainly due to the direct-sales only nature of the title, but the people at DC couldn't figure out why there weren't as many people buying the Legion anymore. That was when the finger started pointing inward at continuity instead of external factors like availability, price, and whether or not whoever was drawing the book was a deciding sales factor. Let's face it: in the minds of many people, both the Legion and the Titans became pretty mediocre books around 1985. When books get worse, people aren't willing to pay the usual price for them, let alone more than they were a couple of years ago.

The next big hit to Legion sales occurred during the Five Years Later era. Ironically, the book was now back on the newsstands but still cost more than the average comic book. The people behind it honestly believed that the Legion would now be easier to follow and would not only keep the existing audience but draw in new readers as well. They were wrong on both counts: justified or not, older readers fled in droves and newer readers didn't pick it up in significant numbers to offset the losses. To make matters worse, the Superboy Edict (which required all mention of Superboy, even the El family name, to be removed from the book) essentially rubbed in people's faces the fact that this was no longer the Legion which they had grown up with, and many fans who were willing to stick it out and give the relaunch a try found themselves leaving the book. Instead of just never mentioning Superboy's name again since he was dead and no longer a part of ongoing storylines, TMK tackled the problem head on, assuming that a majority, not minority, or readers would not be satisfied unless the issue was addressed. Given that sales were smaller to begin with in comparison to the last time the Legion got a new number one, there wasn't as much room to manouver and the series took another massive hit in the sales department.

Sales continued to decline until the series was deemed unsalvagable. Rather than restore the original continuity in an attempt to win back lapsed fans, the decision was made to start over entirely from scratch and the Legion was rebooted in 1994. Sales actually enjoyed a brief spike upward, but the decline soon began again and eventually resulted in the book being cancelled in 2000. By this point, Legion sales were reportedly at 13,000 units a month. By comparison, at the time of the hardcover/softcover experiment, sales were reportedly in the 170,000-200,000 range for the newsstand book, let alone the direct sales version.

The Legion was relaunched again in 2001 and it attempted the same thing which every Legion relaunch does: to appeal to new readers and to bring back older ones. A little over two years later, it too was cancelled in favor of another reboot.

Which brings us up to today. The current Legion series has star power going for it with Mark Waid and Barry Kitson, but it too is seeing a drop in sales month after month after the initial period of interest which traditionally accompanies every Legion relaunch/reboot. The thinking is still that the Legion's salvation is in newer readers who would otherwise be frightened away by the Legion's reputation, but if sales continue to decline over the next few years (especially if the creative team changes), it'll be interesting to see what DC's plan will be then. There will never be a period in which DC gives up on the Legion of Super-Heroes entirely - it's far too valuable a trademark for that - so thoughts of permanent cancellation are premature. Still, whether or not the Legion will break out of the cycle or relaunch/reboot-declining sales remains to be seen.

Not to ignore Glen Cardigan's very thought-provoking post, but returning to the idea that Legion HQ might be a prison as well as a clue to the team's origin, I think it would be wickedly funny if WaK depicted the three founding members - before they formed the Legion proper - as teenaged "agents of chaos" who went by the codenames Lightning Lord, Cosmic King and Saturn Queen.

is it just me or is the idea of them escaping from a prison a bit L.E.G.I.O.N.esque?

It's a great idea if WAK follow it up really, just think - regardless of what is done with Superboy/no Superboy in the 20thC DCU, in this 'Boot as they are basing them on a 20th century interstellar group. Would that be a good way of avoiding awkward continuity problems in future?

Erk... does that mean Nura is the new Stealth? Assuming she lives, of course.)

Can Flying Foxlike-Creature Boy be far behind?

Um, what's up with my post? Why's the entire post in the quote box, when clearly my message ("Can Flying Foxlike-Creature Boy be far behind?") is outside of the [/qb] and [/quote]? (Not to mention my sig and the stuff at the bottom...)

Its a fault in the UBB code. Caused the IMG tags to be removed from the HTML of the image. I fixed it up for you Stu.

It says "DECEASED".

unless someone whose power can bring Dream Girl back to life.

"It's the technology ADULTS use to control underagers throughout the COSMOS."

C'mon guys...I'm a big Legion fan...but if Waid is gonna continue this silliness...i have to say I must drop the title. I know the guy may have based his whole run on the underagers thing but I've seen across the message boards when he lays it on thick with underager talk...readers don't care for it. Worst dialogue I've read in quite a while. Makes me sad. I'm collecting cause of Kitson's art but I just can't swallow this underager stuff.

And I agree with Glen's post totally about direct market...but I must admit DC has not impressed me with their attempts to revive the Legion franchise.

Jorg,

Of course we only have Cos's word that this machine controls underagers. That may simply be his underage perception of a situation he fails to understand. The machine may be nothing more or less than a glorified server. People may fear it in the same way some people in the here and now fear the internet, and the lack of privacy it can create. Also as it is possible for people to track you on line, via banking records and cctv in city centers, maybe this lack of "freedom" is seeing an echo in the legion comics.

Faraway Lad, love the micro.

Yeah I'm sure Waid has a good reason (i hope). In the end I hope that we learn the Legion are all paranoid like most teens.

Oh, he's probably lurking somewhere. Am I misremembering, or wasn't FFCB identified a avatar of Steve Wacker?

The adults-controlling-underagers stuff doesn't bother me too much because, historically, that's precisely what adults have always done - or attempted to do - to one degree or another throughout the course of human civilization. The main difference here is they're employing not only legal, social and political instruments, but high technology as well.

What *does* bother me about this scene is that Cos seems inordinately protective of the Public Service tech. If Brainy were in charge of the mission, he'd probably order the team to tear it to shreds, Sentient Cloud Boy be damned.

I think there's some reason they need the Public Service technology in order to fulfil whatever their mission is.

The LSH did this years before L.E.G.I.O.N. Remember Nardo's Super-Stalag?

Honestly, anything not directly tied to "Infinite Crisis" is getting secondary citizenship status. As much as I wouldn't want Legion to be mired in that, if this series were set up as a direct result of that event, it certainly would've garnered more interest.

maybe. but lots of fans seems to have a set idea of what kinds of books they want to read. for example, how many people who read day of vengance, will now read Fables(both by Wilingham)? probably not many. same thing for Legion. if the restart with Waid and Kitson didn't bring them in,then I doubt an IC tie in would bring that many in. or it would only work short-term.

now if only they could figure out a way to make Wolverine a LSH member. the numbers would go through the roof.

Well atleast Jan's logo is glowing on that preview page. Kudos for that.

I rather them not be tied up in IC anyways just don't think it was the smartest way to reboot the Legion. On the other hand the editorial job involving IC and quality...are through the roof. People still wondering why Garth is from Trom.

Rereading the text in the preview page...looks like Cos is agreeing public service is good? Heh, maybe Waid is on to something after all. Bored teenagers get into trouble.

Are we absolutely sure that Dream Girl is dead? Couldn't it have been Chameleon, impersonating her, say sneaking back from his squad's mission unseen?

Then again, it looks like she's a goner...sob...that's a cryin' shame too...I thought she was really intriguing in this incarnation of the Legion.

Gosh...#11's just soooo far away right now. Has it ever been mentioned that this Dream Girl is named Nura? I can;t remember at the moment but there's a very slim chance that this Dream Girl is not the Dreamy we now in previous incarnations.

If she really is dead, then I'm belatedly stunned. I really didn;t see that coming...

She was identified as "Nura" in issue #2.

Sorry.

After going through all of the clues and looking at the upcoming covers, here are my predictions:

Insanity - Brainiac 5 (as shown in issue #11)

Switching Sides - Triplicate Girl (She's been spying for Lemnos the whole time. I also think she'll turn out to be the unidentified girl on the cover of #12. I think the clues to this were planted back in #3.)

Romance - Dunno yet, unless it's Brainy and Dreamy. But, since Waid seems to indicate people not listed above, I'll guess Light Lass and Star Boy.

My newest pet theory is that Shikari is the Legionnaire who switches sides. Whether that's from Lemnos side to the Legionniares or if she's shown to have defected to Lemnos' side, I'm not certain.

I also firmly believe that she's depicted on the cover to #12 as others have speculated.

this is another thread that I keep coming back to, everytime I read the tittle it gets me thinking and my views change from day to day :rolleyes:

Insanity looks like Brainy's destination to me, he's careering on the edge isn't he? So maybe cos will go mad over grief at his father's death - he could over intellectulalise and be Solomn and morose with the odd flare up and we'd see it as his normal character so maybe the next step is Mettle re-visited, a good way forward me-thinks. it would never last but would be fun to watch!

Traitor theory #3 (one of these has to be right):

Brainiac 5 agrees to help Lemnos in some way in exchange for Lemnos using his powers to restore Dream Girl's damaged mind.

Another good one! We should run through the list of Legionnaires and find a justification for each of them to turn traitor.

Romance: Could that have been a reference to the back-up story featuring LL and SG?

I'm starting to think Brainy was the "arguably insane" one.

Still not sure about the whole "switching sides", though.

Traitor theories:
It's Cos. He decides that Lemnos is right, but sides with him to only to curb Lemnos' bloodlust and marshal Lemnos' troops more towards being Legionnaires.

It's Micro Lad. He decides joining Lemnos will be a new adventure and really doesn't care all too much about "little people" killing each other.

It's Triad. Turns out she was Lemnos' girlfriend but got accidentally left behind on Cargg after they trashed it. She returns to him when she regains her memories.

It's Timber Wolf. Bitter over the breakup with Jeckie, he helped Lemnos destroy her world and helped try to set them up by acting as bait.

Could it just be one of Triplicate Girl's bodies that is the traitor? Thus explaining why there's only two on the upcoming cover.

Yes, I also vote for TG as the traitor. After all, there are a lot of bodies where these three came from, and she can be easily replaced...

Triplicate Girl vs Triplicate Girl? Would she recognize the selves she left behind on Cargg if she just saw them (visually) without merging back together? Perhaps some of her selves have teamed up with Lemnos without her knowledge. What a civil war that would be!

I like! It certainly does tie in with her world being devastated AND her memory loss... and even why her other selves shun her? After Lu left' Lemnos comes back, restores her memory/or otherwise recruits her... and three LSH Lus thus become security risks?

They do more than shun, they refuse to integrate with her. This would make sense since she (Legionnaire Lu) would then KNOW what the others had done.