Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow So Shooter WAS in fact fired from legion (Interview)

It seems that Shooter was INDEED fired form Legion and re-hired back when Rich Johnston announced it in his column.

Here's a very interesting interview about Shooter's misadventures with DC and Didio.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18623

Clearly, in the eyes of DC's management, petty interpersonal politics matter more than the quality of their product.

I don't think Mr. Shooter comes across looking good himself.

I've thought the covers were really good... particularly starting this month...

I guess Shooter really is tough to work with... Mort was really hard on him, too, back in the day...

I still wish we could see more SnM after # 50.

He's always been nice to me...

Jim Shooter's never had a reputation for being easy to work with in the first place, and I can understand his bitterness.

At the #47 thread, I mentioned that I don't think the things Shooter said in the article were all that bad. Yeah, many of us are Manapul fans (Fanapuls?)
so it's hard to hear Shooter criticize him, but put yourself in Shooter's position. He's seen scads of artists over the years, of all qualities. He's seen countless production issues. I think he's qualified to say what he's said.

However, he seems to be the first to call himself a complainer. That's not good. I'm surprised they cancel a beloved series just to get rid of the writer. That just doesn't seem true somehow.

I'm not so sure "Super Lad" would have been a great idea. IMHO, Superboy/man Prime was always a crummy character (especially now as a ruthless villain) and just waters down the integrity of the Superman mythos. Extra "Supers" might help sell a few more issues, but in the long run, the Legion would probably suffer script-wise (more than it already has) from a mandated psuedo Superboy.

I'm a little disappointed that Geoff Johns felt the need to off Rond Vidar in Lo3W in favor of a super - Daxamite Sodam Yat? Rond seemed to be the more interesting character with a more interesting history to work upon. With the amazing plethora of characters in the Legion, a dominating Super doesn't have to be necessary.

I thought the same thing. It's not so much he's rude or arrogant or insulting, just unprofessional. But to each his own...

Well, we only have Mr. Shooter's version in this interview. I'm sure Dan Didio would tell a different version.

I agree.

I have mixed feelings about the interview. In some ways, I appreciate Shooter's candor. It provides a revealing insider's glimpse of what may have gone wrong. If I were doing research on the Legion, I might find this information valuable.

On the other hand, his criticisms of his collaborator and the company he worked for come off as self-serving and insensitive. I have no idea how Francis might feel about these comments, but I wouldn't appreciate my weaknesses (real or imagined) being discussed publicly by a collaborator. Shooter comes off as condescending by suggesting that Francis may become one of the greats someday if he fixes the things that Shooter feels are wrong with his art.

Likewise, his suggestion that the company cancelled the series out of spite aimed toward him comes off as petty and arrogant. Shooter may be right (who knows?), but it sounds as if he should be telling these thoughts to a friend (or therapist) instead of a reporter.

Having read it, after reading the response to it, I'm rather surprised by how many *nice* things he has to say about Francis, praising his hard work and his being 'incapable of drawing a dull scene.' He's critical, but, unlike his references to Didio, he actually seems to *like* Francis and think he's headed for great things.

Gosh, am I glad to not see 'Super Lad.'

If they'd somehow found a way to bring in Conner Kent or Laurel Kent as a pre-existing 'House of El' character, or even do something sneaky like bring in a new Sensor Girl who actually *was* a super-senses only Krypto-spawn, I'd be fine with that, because I *like* those pre-established characters, but to just slap an S on some new character and expect the Superfans to roll over and splash out money is disrespectful, IMO.

And now, I kinda get the heavy, heavy use of Ultra Boy. I'll bet biscuits to quatloo that some of those kickass Ultra Boy action scenes were originally written as 'let's establish SuperLad as a kickass new character!' scenes...

I don't know. I think somebody like Shooter who has been in the industry for many decades has the right to say his honest opinion about a relatively new artist. It's not condescending everytime an experienced professional tells somebody young a way to improve his work. This man has lead the Legion, later Marvel Comics, later Valiant to incredible heigths. Maybe his criticism could have been done in a more private way - but when this criticism is intermingled with the accolade of saying FJM can become one of the greats - then I guess this public criticism is not all that bad...

I don't know. I think somebody like Shooter who has been in the industry for many decades has the right to say his honest opinion about a relatively new artist. It's not condescending everytime an experienced professional tells somebody young a way to improve his work. This man has lead the Legion, later Marvel Comics, later Valiant to incredible heigths. Maybe his criticism could have been done in a more private way - but when this criticism is intermingled with the accolade of saying FJM can become one of the greats - then I guess this public criticism is not all that bad... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but you say that directly to the artist or writer. When you say it in an interview, you make the artist or writer look bad.

At first, reading his comments on FJM, I thought it was insulting. But as I read them more, he was commenting on the work and what he thought would improve the art. That comes from being in the business, from being an editor. His actual words were rather diplomatic and constructive.

That he said them in the interview seemed odd to me.

In isolation the comments seem very harsh and uncaring but coupled with the post Francis (hey, at what point do we get to use first names?) made that showed us the dialogue between him and Shooter in constructing a scene, the comments come to me as very open. I don't see any arrogance, or lack of appreciation for FJM, just as someone wrote, lack of tact, of understanding of the interpretation of the public words by those without intimate knowledge of the relationship between the two artists.

I don't know that I would want my boss being so open even if that openness stated I had the potential to be one of the greats but then, I never will. Manipul's interpretation is the only important one I suppose.

Well he was brought in to improve the book and give the fans a treat for the 50th anni...the sales went down and the fan base didn't exactly unify over the run...I'd say DC gave him more than enough opportunity to fix the book, 13 months is a long time. Plus, DC already has had a point hammered home of what they can do to improve sales.

To say this is entirely DC being unfair with Shooter is not true IMO...other than the fact that they didn't give him a chance to write the Legion that he helped to create in the first place...that's the only thing they did that was unfair to him....but they do that to almost everyone.

While there may be lower selling boooks that DC isn't cancelling, those books tend to have fan bases extremely happy with the book they are getting, plus I've heard they do well in trades and alternative markets...and that is most certainly not the case with the Legion. There are a great number of very vocal fans that are extremely unhappy with this run....unlike say, the group of fans that read Jonah Hex. There's also the fact that some of the lower selling books DC is continuing are attempts to bring back genres that have lost favor with the modern audience, or attract new readers.

With the Legion there is a far better selling alternative available, that seems to be attracting new readers, and generally has the approval of a large segment of fans.

Going back to JS's comments on "Super Lad". This follows broadly what happened in the animated series with Superman X and followed on from Supergirl's tenure in the book. The Con discussions about a Superman/Legion title were driven by DiDio so it is clearly his view that the Legion need an S.

Did Super Lad get dropped because of royalty issues as Shooter interpreted or is it more likely that given the decision to cancel, the introduction of an S character would have been pointless.

It does make me feel a little uneasy about the 'redeem Prime' plot in Lo3W. Is Prime the replacement for Super Lad?

I still think the cancellation is more to do with the outcome of Lo3W than Shooter. That Lo3W is running so late makes the situation look rediculous from the outside but presumably DC weren't aware of the delays when scheduling #50 as the last Shooter issue.

That whole 'Super Lad' thing makes me wonder what a nightmare it must be to work in that environment.

"Write me a treatment for a year and a half or so."

Write, write, write. Plonk.

"Wow! That's a whole lotta stuff. Did I ask for all this stuff? Anyway, rewrite it to center around a new character that we're tentatively calling To Be Announced Lad or Not-Super-Boy."

Rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Plonk.

"Oh, you're done? Crud, I forgot to mention, get rid of any reference to Not-Super-Boy, the Siegel estate's lawyers are all up in my grill about my obviously baiting them by saying 'Superboy' all the time. Also write out Karate Casualty and Triplicate Corpse, 'cause, uh, we're gonna send them to a big, big party, where they will live happily ever after. Really."

click, click, BANG!

I guess that since Francis has posted here, it makes him "one of us."

Yes, I don't believe Shooter meant any harm in his comments, but the issue of tact is a big one. Tact is merely the skill of avoiding giving offense in delicate situations, and few things are more delicate to an artist or writer (or any other creative individual) than public appraisal of his or her work. When such appraisal comes from someone of Shooter's stature or reputation in the industry, it can be magnified for better or worse.

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18656

In a follow-up story, Shooter has clarified that his comments on Francis sounded harsher than he meant them to, although he didn't precisely retract those comments.

Better stay away from 'Action' and it's current storyline!
There's super Kandorians everywhere!
I wonder if the development in Action is what changed DC's desire for a Legion Super Lad?

And I've always been kind of fond of the 'diluted' Superman world. I just don't believe that less if always more.

I like big guns around because the villians are so huge and many and organized and etc..
If you're going to keep the bad guys small powered or singletons or whatever, a Matter Eater Lad might be okay but a New Gods/Darkseid attack needs everything the heroes can throw!

And I agree with Set, BANG.

Maybe DC should treat the Legion especially like a Vertigo book or an Elseworld Forever thing.
Then, the writers could use whomever they want and not try to blend with the rest of DC.

Poor Shooter and fjm!
This seems like a mess all the way around.

So, in the "never satisfied" category, this time I'll say that Shooter is being too harsh on hisself.

I learn so much about the legion members with the little off-hand comments made by Shooter's characters or as many here have noted, their dorms, their thought balloons...

I will miss not knowing what this story was meant to be but I've enjoyed the story immensely. I have reread each Shooter issue at least three times to see the little clues and characterisations, something I've not done in a long long time. In a few issues he has done what he's done better than any other creator IMO, introduced new characters with staying power.

I think Shooter and Waid are both guilty of dragging things out too long, making things that should have been done in an issue or two go on for issues and issues and issues. I do wonder if it's all about making it fit into collections. I do wonder if TPTB made things go the way they did, interfering with the writers' intentions.

Meanwhile, the art has been very good.

Farewell Threeboot!

It wouldn't surprise me if a Dev-Em shows up in the "New Krypton" story, or if he got shunted into the future as the future Power Boy.

I think that Shooter did a good job of working with what he acquired from Waid. Though for me, Waid's threeboot characters always felt like poor imitations of the originals.

I found the artwork to be good, but much preferred Francis’ pencils to the finished product.

I wonder if super lad was going to be a redeemed Superboy Prime.

Whether Shooter's issues are about him or Francis or DC or some other poor fellow, it's clear that the characters of the Legion of Super-Heroes aren't worth a mention.

That's nice to see. Francis has a classy reaction to some tactless commentary, and, upon reflection, Shooter admits that he put his foot in his mouth, which anyone familiar with the man's history would admit seems to be it's natural environment.

If only *we* could have reacted with as much class as Francis in the first place.

We, the unruly mob of Legion fans, demand bread and circuses from DC.

Shooter seems to be playing the victim, too. "I can't say hello without someone asking why I made such a rude comment." Well, he didn't say "hello" to Manapul, he said "if he ever gets the grok of what he's supposed to be doing, he may be one of the greats."

That's a tad different. Earlier I said that Shooter is qualified to makes the statements he makes, but the fact that he whines about the unfair reception of his words actually rather bugs me. Stand by them or don't say them!

Dean,

Just curious. As an artist, what would your response have been if you had been the target of Shooter's comments?

Publicly, I'd thank Jim Shooter for the compliments as well as the criticism, but inside, I'd be very upset that he was unhappy with the visual storytelling on his return to the Legion.

I'd want to contact him and get a couple good examples of what he meant, page by page. At least I could take those lessons with me to the next project.

Thanks for asking, Glen!

We will probably never know the real reason JS has left the book, or why it is being cancelled. Maybe that was the long-term plan and, regardless of Shooter coming on board towards the end or not would have made no difference, who knows?
Yes Francis is an awesome artist and did a great job, but Barry Kitson was equally great and was a highlight for me on this book.
My only negative point during Jim's run on the series is that he had within his means the power to "fix" some glaring problems with a few dangling plots... those being the Dream girl botch job and the Jeckie's going crazy story line. Uh-uh fellows, it just ain't workin' for us fans! Those resolutions would gained our support back to some degree.
I had hoped that Jim would use some of his time on the book to fix these problems (and redeem Princess Projectra since I think he was responsible for her spiralling downward to begin with).
Waid gave us a kick-ass Nura, then turns around and kills her. Uhhhhh.... no comment. And what the heck did you do to Cosmic Boy dude?? He never should have left, no matter what the "long term plan" was. We the fans need our 3 founders in tact, on a monthly basis.
Now let's go back to Shooter. He gets his hands on one of his earliest creations with the chance to make her a great heroine again (in the Sensor Girl mold), but chooses instead to make her a villian??!?
He also had an opportunity to fix the relationships within the group (ie: give Garth and Imra their true bond back, put Tinya and Jo together, make Brin and Ayla discover each other, etc. This set to tone of the book off for me right from the beginning). Then maybe we fans would start to get excited about this book again, and start to warm up to what we have come to love from 50 years of beloved history with this book, THE RELATIONSHIPS.

I'm sorry to say but I am glad that this book is being cancelled because, for me, it never really was my Legion. More like an experiment gone waaaaaaaay bad!
In my opinion BOTH writers had a hand in souring the milk for the past 47+ issues. Let's hope some lessons were learned and that future creators of the book have better luck. I think its cancellation actually adds to the excitement of the 50th anniversary, to see it finally gone and buried (although I never thought I'd ever hear myself say that out loud).

future king, I agree with you. I pretty much said the same thing.

Future King & Sketch Lad: add me to the list who agree totally

You know, the Legion has survived periods without one (or more) of the founders before. I'm not saying if those were good choices or not; I actually don't know.
I know and feel some of that... but this is a new universe, and it shouldn't just replicate old stories and situations. This Legion wasn't started with the intention of evolving it toward a Silver-Age-like version (at least, as far as we know) and I'd be disappointed in a writer trying to turn it around into that. It's not broken; it doesn't need to be "fixed". You have to remember that the old stories still exist, so a new version has to distinguish itself.

Actually, I am disappointed in Jim Shooter for doing just that. His stories don't really seem specific to the threeboot; they're just the Legion he wants to write. He only picks up on plot threads he likes and ignores the rest.

And I was more waiting for Ayla to find Vi, but somehow I could feel that that wasn't the way this boot was going.

Given the time snippets of time they spent together (in their undies, no less), I was kind of squinting around the edges to see if there was gonna be any Ayla / Tinya action.

I've noticed also that Tinya seems to wander in and out of various Legionnaires quarters quite freely. I know, that sort of freedom is her superpower, but I do wonder sometimes how many of the Legionnaires *welcome* her just popping in whenever she wants. (Clearly Jan doesn't mind, but her just phasing into Projectra's room unannounced seemed a little risky, given how short-tempered she is, and that she and Brin sometimes have snuggle-time...)

Hey with Ayla it was a pajama party ok? As for popping in and out and Projectra having cuddle time with Brin, she didn't put the rubberband on the door handle, so I knew it was ok.

Oopsie Ooops!

So I am back from 20 days away and I have to stick to what Shooter says:

1) He praised FJM a lot, in my opinion. Shooter has been EIC of probably Marvel's second best period. He knows storytellers and he gave his honest opinion on FJM next steps to excel. I find that fascinating and, being an artist, I'd be much happier than those "I've been blown away" crap that doesn't help and actually doesn't mean anything.
2) DC Editorial is once again to blame for Legion's demise. It wasn't the editor, the artist or the writer. It was pure DiDio crap and his flow-of-the-month style of managing properties.

I'll stand by Jim Shooter's words, first of all, because his track record is WAY ABOVE Geoff Johns, Dan DiDio and whoever is the newest flavor of the month. I'll miss this excellent rendition of the Legion, who didn't want to be a reboot Legion or a third-rate X-Men under Shooter/Manapul.

I'll stand by Jim Shooter's words, first of all, because his track record is WAY ABOVE Geoff Johns, Dan DiDio and whoever is the newest flavor of the month. I'll miss this excellent rendition of the Legion, who didn't want to be a reboot Legion or a third-rate X-Men under Shooter/Manapul.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Hi Ricardo, Shooter took over a series that was already a bad idea at the time he came on. I just don't think he "fixed" the series the way a lot of us thought he might, legendary writer though he may be.
I am enjoying Geoff Johns' writing of the Legion much more at this point in the game.

I believe if Shooter got his way on this with his large epic with little or no DC inteference it would have been AMAZING! The guy is a genius. I really sad we didn't see that.

Francis is an amazing artist. In a way it's kind of unfair to pair him with Shooter. The man is such a perfectionist I think a veteran penciller would have worked out better.

It's a catch 22. Use the up and coming dynamic artist or the not so exciting veteran that can execute what Shooter wants better? A veteran with thick skin that can deal with a Shooter.

And there's the part where the editor-in-chief needs to be on the ball. Shooter wrote the entire story, it sounds like, and had already worked the visuals out in his head *before he had worked with the artist.*

It's supposed to be collaborative, and, when working with an artist with a certain strength, the writer should be mapping out scenes to play to that strength. It's not supposed to be, 'I decided what you'll be doing. Start drawing, monkey-boy.'

I think Shooter's got so much experience in the field that he needs to be paired up with someone who will get in his face and add more of his own aesthetic to the mix, and not just get handed a sheaf of notes of *exactly* what he's supposed to do like a homework assignment from the man who is supposed to be his creative partner.

That's an Editor-in-Chief call, to pair up creative teams that can work well together, and who are well-matched. This was a failure right at the top, IMO.

[And this is hardly a Shooter-specific ailment, the whole writer-dictating-scene thing. I weep for the dudes who have to draw for Bendis. 'Oh, rapture and glee! Another nine-panel page of people sitting around a table talking about the Scarlet Witch! How can I contain the raw seething energy that will leap off of this page?']

Shooter has always worked with full scripts with a lot of visual forethinking. he used to give Curt Swan layouts and character designs on Adventure. Many many comic writers work that way. in fact it used to be the "DC way" of working versus the "Marvel way" of plots/drawing/then dialogue the art.

To be honest, none of his issues really bowled me over. I don't know if it was the writing, the art, the characters, or what is was, exactly. In fact, I can't honestly look back over the last year and tell you even remotely what happened in the last 10 or 12 issues. Nothing stuck in my head.

I think there was more hype than substance with his return, but then I'm also the guy who doesn't think Grant Morrison is all he's cracked up to be

I'm currently feverishly in hate with #47. I just got it today. To me, it's just page after page of reasons why it is not Manapul's weak story telling skills that caused the fate of this series.

I have to agree with Spellbinder... it's like I kept waiting for something to happen, say over the coarse of Shooter's first 2 - 3 issues, but alas nothing "wowed" me. And this sort of flatness continued another 8 issues until the present. (and the stories are still flat)
I'm the type of Legion fan that if I'm not moved to go back a re-read a story (sometimes more than once or twice) then that comic goes in the pile and just stays there forever. For me this is what happened with every Shooter issue, except maybe a few issues where I picked up the book again just to marvel and FJM's awesome pencils!

What I learned today: grokked.

I seem to be in the minority as one who agrees with Shooter that FJM drew very pretty pictures but is still learning how to tell the story through his art. There is nothing that either said that would suggest that Shooter did not make his critisims known to FJM prior to this interview. In fact doesn't it make sense that he would, given Shooter experience vis a vis FJM's?

Admittedly,I have never gotten how office politics work so I probably agree with Shooter that those how complain seeking to improve the product are generally treated alot harsher than those who go along to get along (and usually complain when "the boss" isn't around). Understand, I manage a very large workforce (but don't call me, Chief) and I gravitate towards the "complainers" more so than the "syncophants" but I do recognize that again I'm in the minority there, too. I'm sure that my managers would like to fire me but I have a record of productivity. I do recognize that if that productivity falls below certain levels, retirement will come a lot sooner than planned. So reduced productivity, in this case book sells, opens the door for management action. Unfortunately, thats how it goes. Everybody is expendable if they are no longer usefull. However usefull is defined.

Its sad to see the LSH continue to be mishandled by DC but hope springs eternal. Maybe the next time They will be more patient and nourishing or maybe next time Mark Waid will be brought back in as Designator ReBooter to "work his magic again"...yeesh.

I agree 100% Set. DC wanted a hot young artist yet Shooter from his interview needed Dave Gibbons. It's like when you see a veteran salty coach coaching a young talented exciting team.