Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Giffen talks some Legion in his newest column

Besides being a great read, he drops some stuff on Legion... And Didio:
7) Sorry, Geoff, but I still think doppelganger characters should be disposed of. I mean, how many Hawkmen do we need? And don't get me started on the plethora of Flashes.

14) Just because you don't know what to do with a character is no reason to kill the character...

15) ... unless it's Karate Kid.

17) Maybe we should stop with all the cohesive universe stuff and just spend a year or two telling good stories. Let the fans work out whatever continuity there is to be worked out. They're so much better at it than we are.

21) Here's a horrifying thought, retell "Watchmen" using the Charlton characters. The horrifying part is, I'd bet money that something along those lines has already been floated past the powers that be at DC.

22) Okay... It was me. I'm a whore. Sue me.

41) Is "Kingdom Come" the new Adult Legion, being a theoretical future riff that's being shoehorned into current continuity? Is this wise?

47) For all of you Didio haters out there, you'd be surprised how many pros sign on at DC specifically because of him.

54) Tidbits from meetings I wish I could have sat in on:

"No, really, his name is Comet and he's a super horse."

"We can call him Matter-Eater Lad."

"Batmobile, Spidermobile. The kids'll love it!"

"... and then Mephisto makes it all go away."

"Alaska. She's the governor. I think it's a perfect fit."

71) When DC first offered me "Reign In Hell," I thought it was going to be about DiDio.

72) Oddly enough, Streaky is also the nickname my wife has given to my boxers.

73) Legion of Super-Heroes? Yeah, I'd take another run at it.


Gotta love this guy... And hell yeah for another run at LSH!!! In fact, it would be great if he did something with Bedard on dotLEGION...

I don't think I want Giffen back on the Legion. Not that I don't like his previous Legion stuff or that I don't think he's good. I'm just not a big believer in bringing people back.

I definitely don't want Mr. Giffen back on the Legion. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but it takes years to repair his zany antics.

I'd love to see Giffen back on Legion. Better him than Waid any day!

But I doubt it would happen.

I'd pay 3.99 for that Legion comic. Seriously, however abrasive the guy might be, he's involved in at least 7 of my top 10 Legion moments of all time. I enjoy his column when it appears.

I am a fan of Giffen's early work on the Legion. His clean lines (back then) were perfectly suited for the futuristic look that one would expect from the Legion's era.
Once he started experimenting with blacker/bolder lines and all those shadows on faces, etc he really lost it for me.
If he went back to his original style then maybe he would work out, but seriously that's never going to happen.
I will say this again... Barry Kitson was a breath of fresh air, and his work, IMHO, was some of the Legion's finest on any of the past versions.

what! i'd love giffen+legion again! just seeing him write the little snippets for the dc/wildstorm mashups showed that he can still do them. i REALLY like midnighter! totally modern, mature, and fun to read!

and we'll be getting that short story from him sometime, right?

Not to my knowledge. There's a short story by Levitz drawn by Jim Lee awaiting publication next year. Giffen *wants* to do another Legion story with Levitz but as far as we know, it's not a done deal.

Seeing that DC wants us all to forget all about the TMK continuity, and his last two Legion writing efforts (the one-shot with DnA and Dream War) didn't light any fires under Legion fandom, I supect any future forays into the Legion will be restricted to drawing it. Co-plotting at most. I won't ever again purchase anything with Giffen's name on the credits page, though. I think he's a real loser.

You just made my mouth water. I would love to see a Giffen-Lee story. As for the Giffen-Levitz story? I would love that. Now mind you I'm not asking for them to jump back on the book but it would be nice for a 3 or 4 issue arc.

I'd prefer to see a Giffen mini/one-shot/limited project outside of any continuity (and I agree with him about "continuity"). His Wildstorm/Dc X-over bit didn't do much for me (did they ever finish that? I gave up after #2 or #3 and never even noticed it on the stands after that).

Ambush Bug / Matter-Eater Lad team-up!

I know at least 20 posters who'd buy ten copies. Hell, I'd buy 40 copies and donate them to libraries and hospitals!

Giffen back on Legion??? No, no, no, a thousand times no!!! He does too much damage everytime he goes near it! I hope Dido doesn't fall for all that ass kissing and keeps him far far away!

oh snap, i was thinking of levitz. they're very conflated in my mind. have you read any of his more recent work though?!

yes that finished! i read it all, though i stopped buying it at 2 because i was a little turned off by something but then people were talking about it (maybe on a podcast) and i gave it another chance, i'm really glad i did! i'm waiting on the trade now. it's actually really funny and cool towards the end!! so i recc giving it another chance. crossovers usually make me puke on principle alone but i ended up liking it. well... i can only recommend it if you know a bit about the wildstorm universe because otherwise its probably not that interesting. but querl was cool and authority were cool <3

Dreamwar is actually a pretty solid book, better than most crossover books I've read (it's way better than all DC/Marvel team-ups, at least for making a cohesive reason for battle).
And as for LegionFan233, As far as I know, Giffen was one of the responsible guys for a certain story called Great Darkness Saga. Hardly a damage to the Legion foundation. And - obviously for me - he gave us 5 Years Later, which was never as destructive as the reboot or Legion on the Run.

Here Here! I vote nay also. Sorry, KG. An keep those Bierbaums away too.

Says the guy...that truly is hilarious...he or Paul Levitz played a role in killing every Legion character killed in the book up till about 1993...it's easier to list the ones they didn't kill...

Supergirl, Invisible Kid, and Ferro Lad. Those are the only ones they didn't kill between the Legions founding and 1993. All the otehrs...killed by mssrs Levitz and Giffen acting together or separately.

And in the case of Giffen...he was stopped from killing even more of them....

Hat Trick
Shvaughn...

Among others.

Levitz and Giffen combined and separately killed probably close to 20 long standing or important Legion characters.


They've got no ground to call anyone else about killing...as they pretty much ushered the trend into the industry in the early 80's...and Paul Levitz still subscribes to the theory that characters need to be killed to have an emotional impact...which to me just proves his limitations as a writer.

Ironically enough, his greatest story(and Mr. Giffens as well most likely), they did not kill a single major character...too bad they lost sight of that.


I'm not sure which one killed more...Levitz or Giffen, but I just know Giffen would have killed the most if he hadn't been stopped....and he didn't stop at characters either...he killed Earths and moons.

How long did those two have impact on the book compared to others?

Far more than Tom McCraw, Tom Peyer or Edmond Hamilton - as much as fans of ADV-era Legion might argue. Legion became a hot property with Levitz, no question about it. It doesn't mean it had its great moments before that (Shooter's run, for instance). But it didn't even had its own title before that. Legion was a sub-product of Superboy.
As for the killing, Ferro Lad started it. Or even worse: Lightning Lad started it - WAAAAAAAAY before Levitz.

I love Levitz and Giffen, and all of their runs. But saying they had 'a far bigger impact' than Edmond Hamilton? That's pushing it. There might not even be a Legion or any sci-fi superheroes without Hamilton and Otto Binder.

There wouldn't have been a Captain Future without Hamilton, and thus, my whole childhood would have been a poorer time... but well, Hamiltons Legion merits? Have to look em up...

I'm pretty sure Shooter has been a part of more Legion stories than Giffen...Shooter's killed one character in about 80 something issues he's written in 40 years....and it was a character he created. Although he is about to kill another one.

Still Shooter has created just about all of the memorable Legion Villains outside of the Time Trapper, and more than his share of memorable Legionaires...


Conversely, Giffen has been a part of about the same number of Legion stories and his kill count reads:

Blok
Sunboy
Mon-El(later resurrected)
Rond Vidar
Chameleon Boy
Karate Kid 3 times
Princess Projectra
Laurel Gand
2 of Duo Damsel's bodies(resurrected one of them)

And I didn't even name any Villains...

And he's created I think maybe 5 memorable Legion characters...in spite of one of the longest associations with the team.


Levitz is similar although not quite as bad as Giffen...but he still killed way more than he created, and way more than any other creator aside from Giffen, per story written or total. IMo his kill specialty was Villains, the really good Villains..and he tended to kill them permanently...and like Giffen, he created probably less than all but a handful of creators that ever worked on the book....inspite of the longest tenure on the book.

He killed way more than he created...unlike Shooter, Siegel, Hamilton...and even Mark Waid and Gerry Conway.


Sorry...I don't really want to see either of these guys on the Legion that just got brought back...

Maybe an elseworlds where they can kill all the characters they haven't killed yet

Ultraboy's never been killed yet right? Maybe they can take him out once...


...maybe Giffen can blow up the Solar System and then the Universe of the Elseworlds Legion he is writing, since that's about all he didn't blow up yet...then he can kill Karate Kid 14-15 more times, since a segment of Legion fans actually seem willing to pay money to see that...they could make it a maxi-series where he kills Val every issue for a year. They could charge 3.99 per issue for it...because creativity of that caliber is worth 4 bucks an issue...and a good time can be had by all that way.

Either that or they should have to write the Legions they left others to write...

I can understand the reservations about having the old team come back to a regular legion book. I would love some fresh blood that doesn't destroy everything too.

Maybe an option could be a mini series. Marvel has done a few Iron Man projects with David Micheline and Bob Layton. For old time fans of the series when it was under their direction, it was like finding lost issues.

Maybe we don't need to go completely back, but rather just pop in for a visit.

No...no...hell no...uh uh...NO...Nada...not in this lifetime...not in any of hawkman and hawkgirl's lifetimes...no no....nope...NO KEITH GRIFFEN ON A REAL LEGION BOOK EVER AGAIN...

he enjoys killing KK too much...and can we also remember he had a hand in Una being eaten by RATS!!!! NO...KG on a legion title ever...again. Love what he did with the legion in the past...but no not on another book again...no.

What Keith Giffen did good:

1980s art/plot contributions
Plot for 5YL

What Keith Giffen did bad:

Artwork on Magic Wars and 5YL
Killing KK three times
Retconning Luornu as Triad for no reason
Killing 'Una'
Kid Quantum
Garth/Proty
Shvaugn/Sean
Destroying Earth in a pique with DC
The trial of Polar Boy
The Subs Special

Is there somewhere on line where the entire column can be read?

Count me in on the pro-Giffen side. The "TMK" era is what drew me into the Legion, and it's pretty clear from reading the stuff that followed his departure that his ideas were the main component of what I liked.

Funny, the bad part is my good part. Bad part of Keith Giffen was leaving the book, actually, to some not-so-good fill-ins.

what i liked of the bad part...

killing of Una
Kid Quantum (since it was in the 'new' history post Mon-EL punch...hey his was the first recon punch eat that superboy-prime...it was in a new timeline of sorts so it was true in this legion history and not the original...same with proty-garth...could say the same for Shvaugn/Sean...but at the same time HATED THAT CHANGE).
Destroying Earth...not so bad

And Am I the only one who wished he drew Legion #50 with the time trapper's "death" to have been more like his Pencil work in the Great Darkness Saga?????? It would have been a more memorial story with greater impact I think. Esp that last image of the Time trapper's robe blowing in the wind on that rock spike.

Fandom still divided after so many years... in some parts it's even the same discussion than ten years ago on Legion-List. Those were the days, eh Ricardo?

But I guess some things never change. I'll never be a Reboot lover as well, even though I intend to someday reread it... when I'm done with all the other stuff I intend to read and reread like JSA, L.E.G.I.O.N., Love & Rockets, Fables......

As far as Giffen goes, I liked most of his stuff pre- and post-5YL. I also liked his art on 5YL, which is strange cause I'm normally a fan of classic "beautiful" art like George Perez is doing... but I liked Giffen and Pearson. The only things I did not like were the "over-the-top" elements which were Profem, Garth = Proty and the idea of making the Clones the real Legion... glad that we did not have to live though that last one...