Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Batman, Detective Comics and All-Star Batman

Anybody have any guesses about the teaser image Tony Daniels did for Battle for the Cowl?

DC announced their plans for the Bat-books starting in June. Nightwing, Robin, and BOP are officially done. No artist info, but here's some on the writers.

Detective Comics - (f.Batwoman) w.Greg Rucka
Batman - w.Judd Winnick
Batman and Robin - presumably Morrison's book
Red Robin - no info
Batgirl - (not featuring Cassandra Cain)
Batman: The Streets of Gotham - w.Paul Dini
Gotham City Sirens (f.Catwoman, Ivy, Harley) w.Paul Dini

whoa, thanks cj. i... i think i'll need to print that out. i feel like i'll need a dousing rod to figure out which one i want. i haven't figured out if i like or dislike judd winnick @___@!

Some updated info after perusing the newsites:

Red Robin will be written by Chris Yost- that Marvel mutant guy. Ramon Bachs will be handling the art. The character will be globe trotting on a hunt for Bruce Wayne. It's got a 12 issue story lined up right now, then Yost says it will have to "reinvent itself."

Still no info on the Batgirl book. But Dan Didio has said that there will be a place for all the 90's replacement heroes - Kyle Rayner, Connor Hawke, and Cassandra Cain were all named specificially. And with Babs featured in a story called "The Cure," well I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

It is, with Frank Quietly (re-uniting the X-Men/WE3/All-Star Superman team). If Previews are any indications it looks like:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Dick is Batman and Damien is Robin.</span></span>

Which kind of spoils where Battle for the Cowl is going.

Okay, starting to make way into some Bat-titles of last 6 weeks so I'll review:

Batman - by Judd Winnick. Horrible. Crap. Terrible. Burn it. Wow, this was the kicker of the "Dick as Batman" that made me want to puke.

Red Robin - cancelled after #1, and I own every Tim Drake appearance ever. Hate the new status quo.

Detective Comics - whoa. Stop the presses. This recieved praise from certain LW posters I know to be handsome little devils with good taste so I was hoping it would impress me--and it did. BIG TIME. First off, the art by J.H. Williams III is nothing short of spectacular. Its fall down off your chair good. And Rucka does a great job getting us right into it--this is no rookie superhero; Batwoman is sophmore (much more interesting) or even a little more experienced. Rucka introduces her father as a supporting character and within three pages is able to convey quite a bit; the relationship there is fascinating and one I'm really looking forward to seeing more of. A military father, who cares about his daughter deeply, knows about her superhero identity and helps her, obviously is supportive of her being a lesbian and generally appears to be a decent guy. In a comic book? I applaud Rucka for showing some in depth characterization from the get-go. Glad to see it.

Question Back-up in Detective - I love the Vic Sage Question and its hard not seeing him around. But I loved 52 and I've loved Montoya since I first saw her on the Animated series in the 90's, so I'm willing to run with it. So far, pretty good. Pretty standard plot full of brutality and a need for vengeance/justice, but it fits well in the history of the Question. The Question's first appearances are stories I just read last summer--they are all superb by the way, Steve Ditko at his finest--and it seems Rucka is willing to follow Ditko and O'Neil's willingness to show you stories that are not easy to see. I'm glad the back-up is there and it works well with Batwoman.

Streets of Gotham - despite Detective being so good, I am not picking this up. I'm so anti the new status quo (because I'm putting money on a dead Dick Grayson by 2012) that I can't bring myself to buy any new titles. Sorry Manhunter.

Gotham Sirens (or something like that) - ditto, but the comic book guy gave me a free copy of #2 because I buy so many, so I'll check it out and come back with a review.

1 out of 6 (or 5)... a sad state of affairs for the Bat family. I only got the initial issues of Batman and Detective. Didn't think Batman was so awful, but can't stand whiny arrogant Damien. Where's the Joker when you actually need him for a job?

Batwoman is pretty strong - beautiful art. The Question story wasn't as powerful, so far, but I've always liked the character and hope Montoya will continue to develop. (I still miss Vic Sage, but he had years to build up his character. Maybe he and Bruce Wayne will connect in some other life...)

It's interesting that both women have older men helping them out, Dad for Kate and Rodor for Renee. Like the old song goes, It's so nice to have a man around the house.

Edit: Nevermind, I see you posted about B&R on the "Batman & Robin" thread.

And you're surprised...?

So far, I haven't read enough of the new wave of Batman to make a judgement, but Detective and B&R are early favorites. Red Robin, I didn't pick up after flipping thru it. Art was terrible. Everything else I've picked up at least two issues of but haven't read both issues yet of all. I may also buy the new Batgirl for a couple issues at least if they stand up to the eyeball test. I'll definitely pass on Azrael, though.

I'll submit a report card after I've got enough info to process them. However, I do want to point out that Cobalt's reviews seem heavily biased by his dislike of Damien and Dick in their respective roles. I, for one, am open to the possibilities here. It's actually a little weird, seeing how Cobalt was so high on Grant & Dini's Batman work just a year ago--does your disagreement with the changes just kill any merits to their writing for you, CK?

I feel Cobalt makes a lot of assumptions about where Dick's story's going and unfairly compares this to "Prodigal". The general concepts behind the two are miles apart given the circumstances. As for Damien, what's the point of having a new Robin if he's exactly like the other ones? Yeah, he's basically an ass from the get-go, but this certainly leaves a lot of room for growth and storytelling. How it will be executing remains to be soon, but it has a lot of potential. Maybe the argument is that there was nothing wrong with the old Robin, but this has clearly been on the way since Damien was introduced two years ago.

My early impressions are:

Batman is the one to skip--not just because of Winick, but beacause after that, there's a revolving door of iffy-to-mediocre writers to come.

Red Robin's skippable, too, because of the iffy direction and crappy art.

Streets of Gotham has Paul Dini, so if it's a little shaky at the start, it'll probably get a lot better (and the art is solid). And the Manhunter backup is already clicking on all cylinders!

Gotham City Sirens may be worth a trial, of a few months at least, despite another shaky start. Dini's writing Harley and Ivy, so if Dini can stabilize and establish, it could be fun and kinda reinvent Birds of Prey.

Batman & Robin and Detective Comics are already absolute musts. Grant is telling clear stories that suit Batman well, channeling All-Star Superman Grant instead of trippy incoherent Final Crisis Grant. And Detective...J.H. Williams III is just one of the very best artists in comics, bar none! Rucka's writing just let's Williams do his thing to tell the story without making it needlessly complicated. Terrific stuff!!!

I'll give you my thoughts on the status quo and then that should funnel into a response your question, Lardy.

Honestly, a lot of it stems from major dissapoint I've felt about DC these last few years. It has been one series of marketing ploys and editorially driven tendencies headed by Dan Didio that has left me feeling very cold towards the company as a whole. I think DC has crossed a line these last few years making them much worse than Marvel--even worse than the Marvel of 1992. Obviously, there are still several DC comic I am liking right now (see my various reviews in various threads), but the feeling is there overall.

No where is this more apparent than what is going on in Batman. It all feels like a big marketing ploy to me, and its one that has been done before. There is nothing new or original about Dick Grayson taking over the mantel as Batman. It was done both well and poorly in 'imaginery stories' throughout the 50's & 60's, and then it was done very well in the 90's with Prodigal. I'm just very unenthusiastic about seeing it again.

Does this all spin out of Grant's longterm story? It probably does but that doesn't help make me like anymore. I was the biggest supporter of Grant's run on Batman up until the change in status quo, and I still think his writing is good for the most part in Batman & Robin, but the new set-up is too distracting for me to enjoy it.

As for Damien, I find him as annoying as any other character I've ever seen in comic books. There is a reason Bat-fans had Jason Todd killed in the 80's and its exactly the same reason we don't like Damien. He's annoying. I see what you're saying, that his will be a long road to overcome and that might be interesting to see--just not to me.

The most glaring thing about the new status quo is that I already know how it ends. Bruce resumes his role as Batman. Bruce Wayne will ultimately outlive me and all of us, and he'll always be Batman. So where does that leave Dick? That's what I'm worried about.

Dick was perfect as Nightwing prior to this. They could have simply had him take Bruce's spot in the JLA for a time and that would have been fine too. But once he's Batman, the idea of him reverting back to Nightwing will feel like a demotion. And I don't trust this new kill-happy DC; rather than demoting him, they'd kill him off in a spectucular and heroic death scene that would remind Bruce of his struggle against crime and injustice. And that story, if it came to pass, will simply just suck. I hope I'm wrong. Either way, Dick being turned back into Nightwing has the potential to be awful, and I'm been burnt by DC too many times these last few years. The notion of Dick one day taking over as Batman is one all comic book readers are familiar with and one I like. I just don't want to ever see it, because Bruce Wayne will always be Batman in the end, like Clark Kent will always be Superman. Anything that changes along the way will ultimately be changed back so it almost feels like it doesn't count.

That all being said, I did read another title, Gotham Sirens, which I mentioned my CBS gave me a copy of. Its actually really good, with Dini doing a good job and the art being really awesome. I like Selina, Ivy and Harley but am not sure how into the series I'll be with those three as the stars. I may pick up another issue, or hunt for #1, but I may not. Depends how I feel when I get to the store.

Oh, and if DC does kill Dick Grayson, be prepared for Reboot, myself and others all giving you "I told you so's" and implying you are all accomplices

My retort is this: why is it okay to use this marketing ploy with Captain America and NOT okay to use with Batman? I mean, we're essentially looking at virtually identical scenarios here, aren't we? Maybe, in Cap's case, it's mostly contained in one title, but otherwise---?

In DC's defense we haven't really had a "death of Batman" in-continuity story before (other than what was done with the Earth-2 version. Knightfall wasn't exactly a death story, and here, courtesy of the last page of Final Crisis, we are at least shown up front that Bruce is still alive. There's really no pretense here, but it could be cool to see what Dick does in a longer term story than "Prodigal", especially with a new Robin to mentor.

Like him or not, since I first saw Damien, I knew Grant would make him a new Robin. At least they didn't kill off Tim to give him that role.

You know...if anything Damien's in the most danger of not living through all this. I mean, can you really see Bruce returning and pairing with his own biological son as Robin? Just not seeing it!

But if you ARE right, puh-leeze, Dick's "death" will only last a year or two max!

I'm counting on Damien dying...its the silver lining to the whole thing

I always appreciate and enjoy your analysis but this time I disagree. We DON'T know how the story will end for the important character details we care about. What WILL happen to Dick? What IS Damien's ultimate fate? (Personally, I think Bruce will be reborn in Damien's body and Damien's soul will take over R'as Al Ghul's body and become the new R'as.) Second, I think if you LIKE Dick Grayson as a character, you have to admit the potential fun of watching him trying to be Batman. That doesn't mean actual DC creative and editorial staff will do a good job with it. Although I would argue that Grant's storytelling has been near pitch-perfect so far in B&R. I even liked the Widdick-scripted scene between Dick, Alfred and the Justice League. The interractions between Dick and Alfred are just...awesome in B&R. They are reminding us of what is good and essential and interesting about these characters in the first place. And that is always a good thing. Normally, I hate prick characters, but I'm enjoying Damien because we expect him to be a jerk. It's therefore interesting on those occasions where he is not a jerk and/or gets his backside handed to him. If he's still a jerk 3 years from now, I'll lose interest, but for now, it's fine. I'm reminded of how Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan made Luke Skywalker a whiny, impatient jerk in Empire Strikes Back. It made him a more interesting character since we got to see him overcome it.

I completely agree that, any valid and interesting story points aside, DC has made this more marketing ploy that legitimate story. I would still bet on Morrison making it a legitimate story in the end. But the multiple books, many contradictory and of mediocre quality, says marketing ploy. That's why I'm only reading B&R and Detective, which is the most interesting and gorgeous comic of the year.

Well, hopefully you guys will be proved right. As you can tell by earlier in the thread, I love Batman and I love Morrison so I don't want to see the title suck.

But if message boards taught me anything these last 10 years, its that when something annoys you to such a degree, you must not only say how much you dislike it, you must go out of your way to destroy it

I'd rather see Damien grow up into a well-tempered hero than killed off. Or even a bit of a rascally, borderline bad guy, like Catwoman.

As for killing Dick Grayson by 2012... I bet they don't. Of course they could always revive him, but I'm hoping that the dead heroes thing is wearing thin, and the comics industry is going to have to find another trick with which to jerk us around.

And, yeah, way too many Bat books of little interest.

I'm loving the Bat-books right now!

And by "Bat-books" I mean Detective and Batman & Robin, the only two I buy.

People would love DC a whole lot more if they only bought the good books, like I do.

A big point in this direction's favor is that though Dick may not be Nightwing anymore, he's still Dick here. They're not trying to make him just like Bruce; they're writing this fully respecting that there's a different, well-defined character under the cowl with a rich personality very distinctive from Bruce Wayne. Yes, there was nothing wrong with him being Nightwing, but no one's trying to strip Dick of what makes him the character we know.

Another way to look at this is that Nightwing's comic had pretty much been crap since Chuck Dixon left, both from my own experience and from what I've heard since I dropped the title. Apparently, Tomasi was bringing it around towards the end, but this was after years of very forgettable runs started by that hack Devin Grayson. I'd certainly soured on the title and the character and may never have jumped back on board regardless of what creator came on board (short of a Geoff Johns-type announcement).

Rather than this being a lead-in to DC killing him off, I think it'll be a lead-in to a new era of interest and creative enrgy infused in the character after he takes off the cowl, whether it's a return to Nightwing or whatever. It'll be a chance for him to take his place next to Hal Jordan and other recent successful character revivals.

I think that's where DC is going with this, honestly, and if so, I support the effort. I personally think Dick has been stuck in a rut for a while, and this may just be the shot in the arm he needs. He's just been bouncing around in a kind of purgatory between a mediocre-to-lousy solo title and umpteen Titans or Outsiders revivals. Maybe he'll emerge from this stronger than ever with a new higher profile and that rut fading in his rearview mirror. A big part of that, I believe, should be to finally end his involvement with the Titans.

Time for him to grow up and leave the kid stuff behind, I say. I'd be just as mad if he reverts back to the same old crappy treadmill he's been on as I would if DC killed him.

I'm enjoying Batwoman in Detective. That may not be a good thing because what I like lately never seems to be commercially successful. I would love to see this version of Batwoman sell. The visuals are really interesting.

The Batwoman part is good, great even. This is the first time I've picked up a Batman book since Hush.

My issue is with the Question part. Slow, slow, slow. A whole page dedicated to watching the Question walk down a hallway, sheesh. Shame too. The premise of the story seemed good, though the question aspect a bit silly.

Dropped it off my list. Can't pay $4 for a $2.50 book.

Quite a trick, secreting a poisoned razor blade in one's mouth while still being able to speak (and cough) without impediment.

Other than that little belief-dissuspender, I'm enjoying the adventures of Batwoman.

(Poor Dick: first, he gets the number of covens in Gotham wrong; second, he's apparently clueless when it comes to the difference between genuine red hair and a red wig. Didn't all his canoodling with Barbara Gordon teach him anything?)

Kate and Maggie Sawyer chatting and dancing in tuxes at a society event in Detective #856. We've come a long way, Baby. The artwork continues to be amazing. Bette is an interesting addition. Looks like Kate's father is in serious trouble.

It's nice that Williams was able to make Bette LOOK like she came from the West Coast by giving her a tan. Of course, that might mean Flamebird might succumb to her new arch enemy, the dreaded Melamaniac.

So anyone not a fan of Jason Todd's return might want to read the current arc in Batman & Robin. I know I'm excited for the next issue. Tan's artwork is very different than Quietly's, and their stories reflect that in their tone. I don't know if it's Grant tailoring the story for each artist, but the energy, the mood, the story become something different with each artist.

The other Batman book is starting to finally come out from under the shadow of Battle for the Cowl. Currently it's still finding it's feet, but there's some fun stories with interesting leads and ideas. It doesn't have the distinct feel that Grant has brought to his book. I'm just waiting for the right creative team to bring it all together.