Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

Just to give a flip side:

Fred Van Lente, Greg Pak, Jeff Parker.

Those three guys are doing such good work at Marvel, that everything they do these days is BETTER than what Keith Giffen and Paul Dini are doing. I stand by that 100%.

Morrison is one of my favorites but I admit most of his recent DC stuff isn't thrilling me. Not like it was when All-Star Superman and Batman were coming out a few years ago.

Rucka obviously left DC because he can't stand them anymore.

One of DC's best writers besides Geoff (who has his major faults just like BMB does--I find anyone who says Geoff is clearly better to cleary be jaded), is Pete Tomasi.

But, in the pursuit of giving specifics, I feel like I'm maybe splitting hairs. But hey, that's what the Roundtable is for, right?

In a way my argument can be boiled down to BMB vs. Geoff Johns! If a reader has a clear preference between the two writers, then that almost makes the choice between DC and Marvel clear since each writer is obviously the major influence in creative direction at his respective company.

I'd say at this point that BMB's influence is the more pervasive of the two at this point, however, since he has been both a star and entrenched at his company for a longer period of time than Geoff has at DC. Even then, BMB's influence doesn't really stretch very much into, say, the X-titles or the cosmic titles very much. But every event has steamrolled from his Avengers family and peaked with the recent Dark Reign in such a way as to make his storyline fingers be felt more and more. Books like Captain America and Daredevil were among those that mostly had a certain autonomy about them for a long time but eventually fell under the lengthening BMB shadow.

And BMB's shadow can be very dark! As dark as some of Geoff's stories have been at times, they pale in comparison with what Bendis has directly wrought with his vivisection of the Avengers, starting with Disassembled. He took a venerable franchise and decided to tear it down and remake it in his own image.

Bendis has always had a preference for darker, edgier stories, and he really ran with it in his emergence into the Avengers. That style worked very well with his work on Daredevil, Alias and his creator-owned Powers. I contend it never felt right on Avengers and his spin-offs of it. I have doubts that he can pull off a virtual 180 from that approach in the so-called "Heroic Age" upcoming. (This despite the fact that I think his more upbeat and traditional work on Ultimate Spidey has always been terrific.)

Geoff, on the other hand, has always had as his trademark the ability to dissect and restore what it is we like about the characters he takes on while also making them seem fresh at the same time. His work on the Green Lantern franchise doing this is obviously second to none, but he also worked wonders on JSA for a long time, gave Booster Gold a shot in the arm, told some great Superman stories and has done some remarkable work on the Flash franchise that is now entering a second run featuring Barry Allen.

So where Bendis darkens...Geoff lightens up? I don't know if it's that simple. It's not like my comics have to be optimistic and upbeat all the time, but ultimately I think our mainstream superhero icons are supposed to be a lot more about hope than fear (to use a corny GL spectrum analogy). And Geoff's titles certainly seem a lot more heroic than Bendis's.

Clearly, I prefer Geoff Johns' approach more than BMB's. I'm not a Bendis hater by any means, having enjoyed his Daredevil, Ultimate Spidey, Alias and the earlier Powers issues. But anything I've read by him at Marvel in the Avengers titles has been abyssmal. And it's those storylines that infect the other titles I would ordinarily like to such a degree that I feel I have to drop them.

There's PLENTY wrong at DC, I agree. But ultimately, I'm enjoying or looking forward to a LOT more of DC's titles than Marvel's. And Bendis v. Johns kinda sums up my core issue with the creative part of my dissatisfaction, at least.

I've said my piece and will let others comment but to continue the conversation in a related direction, one could make the arguement that your definition of the Marvel/DC difference in regards to Geoff and Bendis has always been this way.

DC traditionally had shiny superheroes that were "brighter". And Marvel has traditionally had flawed superheroes laden with tragedy. This was the case in the Silver Age when Marvel defined itself as a company and being distinctly different from DC.

Still, I don't quite agree that the DCU is "lighter". Geoff's stories add a level of violence to them that most Marvel comics don't come close to. Its one of the complaints brought up against Geoff a lot and its true his comics are uber-violent.

I don't think Bendis has more say at Marvel than Geoff does at DC. Bendis is just a writer. Geoff is like a co-EIC now; he also has spareheaded almost all of the major crossovers of the last few years: Infinite Crisis, Sinesto Corps War, Blackest Night; and he was 1/4 of 52. If anything, I think Geoff has more say than Bendis.

Personally, I think Geoff is a shining light at DC and wish he could have more veto-power over many of the editors.

I also think Bendis is doing some tremendous material. I'm an old school Avengers fan too but frankly--its time other old school Avengers fans let it go. Bendis writing Disassembled was one of the best things to happen to the franchise in years. I'm thrilled Bendis has so much control at Marvel and hope it continues. Daredevil, Spider-Woman, Ultimate Spidey and Alias have all been excellent. And his New Avengers--which admittingly has had its ups and downs--has largely been pretty good. Certainly much better than Chuck Austen, Geoff Johns, and most of Busiek's run--the entire decade preceding him.

That definitely occurred to me, and I meant to include it somewhere in the last post. Marvel's long been a lot grittier in its approach than DC has. Kurt Busiek kinda highlighted that in his Avengers/JLA series rather well, I thought. But the grittiness was usually in certain titles and less so in others.

The Avengers line was one of the more "upbeat" franchises at Marvel throughout most of its history, as opposed to, say, X-Men. In my mind Bendis has been trying to bring some of that X-Men grit over to the Avengers franchise to increase it's popularity. Admittedly, that approach has worked to achieve the desired sales goal, but at what price? I gave up on the X-books a long time ago for the same reason, so now I can't turn to the Avengers anymore for some 'comfort food'?

Oh, Geoff definitely has more than his share of violence in his stories. But even so, it doesn't somehow seem to pervade the mood of the pieces he does, for the most part. It's difficult to explain. I mean, you see the Hawk's die horribly in BN #1, but in #8 you get a beautifully moving scene that kinda wipes it away and cleans the palette. Yes, this is the same man who gave us the villainous Superboy Prime (and Infinite Crisis pretty much sucked), but so much of the work has been uplifting of the characters and franchises he touches that it's that stuff that tends to stay with me more.

And, well, Bendis has been on point with all of Marvel's big crossovers as much as Geoff, so I don't see that argument at all. Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Seige are all his storylines. And though he didn't write Civil War, I'm sure he was at least helping to pull the strings given how closely his franchise tied into it.

Geoff is now literally an executive with DC, but htat's only as of a few months ago. Unfortunately, it looks like his position has more to do with helping develop the movies and what-not if I understand correctly. Certainly, someone needs to step up and clean up the mess that the Titans, JSA and others have devolved into.

The greatest thing that could ever happen to DC is if Geoff never needed to sleep again. Then he could keep writing all his current titles plus Teen Titans and JSA and some others.

Generally Geoff-DC titles are the best the Company has. Its when lesser writers try to channel what Geoff is doing that there is an epic fail.

One complaint I have though recently for Geoff's stuff is it feels like none of his titles can stand on their own. They're all too inter-connected with one another with constant tie-ins and guest stars. That stuff can be cool when done judiciously, but these days it feels like nothing can stand on its own two feet with using other characters as a crunch. I know that's not the case but I need to see it again.

Piping in to say, you guys are making brilliant observations and I'm enjoying the heck out of it. I think Geoff came into DC with a small cadre of like-minded individuals like Gail Simone and Phil Jiminez (where IS he lately??) that knew how to please fanboys because they WERE such big DC fans. Can't really comment on BMB as I don't read his stuff.

Lash, I think me and Cobie are a little afraid of this conversation boiling down to Lardy/Cobie point/counterpoint, but I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'd be curious to hear what more you can say about DC's "like-minded individuals" and what exactly it is you think they bring to the table, though, if you'd care to. Whether or not you have any BMB perspective, I think you could add a lot to that side of the issue. Please do!

Yeah, I especially want to hear what DC and Marvel writers Lash and others are enjoying besides Geoff and Bendis.

Gail: Bringing in Nightwind and Infectious Lass at the tail-end of the reboot era, a pure fangirl move that I loved her for. Knowing how to take a character everyone had given up on-- Catman-- and making him a star? She did this. See also: Geoff Johns.

Phil: His plot for Team Titans (I've seen this on the web) involved bringing Duela Dent firmly back into continuity. Along with Devin Grayson, this was finally accomplished in JLA/Titans. 100% pure fanboyism. HIs run on Womder Woman introduced Wonder Boy-- 200% pure fanboyism here.

Geoff Johns is, however, the undisputed King of this talent-- he KNOWS, as Cobie states above, how to make the characters we already know and love relevant again, and also-- much in his favor-- does so without completely destroying what has come in the time since (Teen Titans, Hawkman, JSA, Booster Gold etc etc etc).

There may me more examples of this from other creators at DC since but these are the ones I have/had primary contact with.

THE DEVIL'S DUE DEPT:

John Byrne, of all people, also had a major hand in restoring JSA to greatness-- he re-inserted the Golden-age Womder Woman (as Hippolyta) back into continuity.

This was one of the very few things he's done that I haven't hated since the 80s. I believe Johns and co. took this example and ran with it when they came into power.

My take on other DC writers:

I think bringing in Tony Bedard is a large feather in DC's cap. With him coming on GLC, just wait, he's gonna slowly balloon up to Geoff-size proportions. He's long been an underrated writer, but he's finally gonna get his due!

Bringing Paul Cornell in from Marvel is a potentially big, big move for DC as well as he moves in on Action Comics as well. Marvel never seemed to know what to do with him, but I think he will get his due at DC.

Tomasi's a big talent, for sure. He needs something more high profile and out of Geoff's sandbox to properly get the attention he deserves. I know he's got a new Guy Gardner book coming up, but I'd like to see him more outside his comfort zone but more on the radar than The Mighty was.

JMS has obviously done a bang-up job on B&B. Now to see how he will do with two high profile books added to his plate. I'm really excited about him writing Superman and may actually give his WW a try, both based largely on how refreshed his work has been on B&B.

Giffen's stuff on Doom Patrol is getting better and better all the time. While Magog may very well be a flop, DP is showing he's got what it takes. If he can find other projects that are as inspired, his creativity is potentially limitless.

I'm hot and cold with Grant Morrison, but there's no doubt the man has more imagination in his left pinky than most other writers have in their lifetimes!

Dan Jurgens has kind of an old-school writing style, but it ages pretty well. I'm thrilled he will be doing a follow-up mini to his excellent Booster Gold work and hope we'll get plenty more after that.

Gail Simone has made me a huge fan with her work on Secret Six. I'm definitely getting Birds of Prey! I can tell Gail likes her books to be a little more on the fringes of the DC universe, but I wish she'd take a crack at at least one of DC's flailing titles. (I bet she could do something with Titans) She's probably DC's freshest voice at this point.

Those are the best off the top of my head. Otherwise: J.T. Krul has some potential and could make the leap, given the right project. Winick--he's gotta go! I'm hearing good things (surprisingly) about Tony Daniel as a writer/artist. Paul Dini--none of his comics work has really grabbed me, surprisingly. James Robinson has shown the occasional sign of his earlier talent, but has mostly disappointed.

Thanks for bringing up Giffen, Lardi-- I adore the man and his skills, but I'm very much in the camp of belief that he does his best work with co-writers (JL, LSH, Ambush Bug, Heckler).

DOOM PATROL may just be the title to disprove this theory.... it has continually gottem better and better. I bet Keith is held in VERY high regard by Geoff, Gail and their group.

I agree that Bedard is a seriously under-rated writer. I've said it a million times but his Negation series by Crossgen was just about one of the best sci-fi comic books I've EVER read. Where he excels is he can take a group of characters and create this sense of tension between them (even if they're all allies) that makes the forward motion of the plot seem so seemless. He also writes "weird situations" really well and how people react to them.

I'm of course a huge Gail fan and buy all her titles.

Yes, DP is suprisingly good for that very reason (meaning his not having a co-writer)!

Other honorable mentions at DC are Sterling Gates of Supergirl and Bryan Q. Miller of Batgirl. Both have done sterling work on those titles. It remains to be seen how good they'll be outside those titles.

And of course Paul Levitz's impending return has me just the teensiest bit excited--especially considering what property he's returning to!

I haven't read a whole lot of GrayPal, but they certainly have quite the following on their various projects.

Hey! That's a whole lotta good writers not named Geoff Johns, huh?

Agree about Keith on DP. My comments on that thread go into detail about why I think he's doing such a good job there.

Graypal do a great job on Jonah Hex but there other works these days are not doing it for me at all.

Warlord--which is basically like a creator-owned title--is very well done by Mike Grell.

Tony Daniel is not working for me at all on Batman.

I've thought Dan Jurgens has done a really great job on Booster Gold and both his writing and artwork have reclaimed their place of greatness because of it. I think Booster under Jurgens has been better than Booster under Geoff.

I don't think Warlord occurred to me because it's not really a DCU book as it shares little-to-no continuity with the rest. I think it's technically in the DCU (given a Green Arrow cross-over many moons ago), but I definitely wantit to stay insulated where it is. That book has far exceeded my expectations and gets better all the time. I never collected Warlord in the past, but I'm glad I took a chance on this incarnation. It's truly excellent! (Gotta pick up that Showcase Warlord collection...)

GrayPal's POWER GIRL has been pretty much fluff, but enjoyable fluff for me.

One cannot discount their run on HAWKMAN, though, which was SO much better than even Geoff's run on same previously... With this run, I'd put them in the "Geoff/Gail/Phil" fanboy-pleasing camp (revitalization of villains, restoration of long-unseen 3rd tier faves like Golden Eagle)...

Marvelwise, HEROES FOR HIRE was on its way to Giffen/DeMatties/Maguire greatness before DC snagged GrayPal up exclusively.

I haven't read a bit of Daniel's run on Batman (though I read his crappy Battle for the Cowl), but it's consistently getting decent reviews on CBR, a site that gives me very reliable reviews typically.

I don't know if it was better than Geoff's run, but it certainly built very well on it. Dan's art remains very pleasing to the eye, and he can tell a very satisfying tale that shows the old school approach is still relevant. Definitely looking forward to Time Masters!

I'm more of a character-follower than a writer-follower so other than the big names (Morrison, Johns, Simone, Mllash, etc) I don't really remember which writers have written which books I've read.

I also have never read a Marvel comic so I can't speak to the talents of Bendis and co. over there.

Regarding DC writers...

Geoff Johns - as much as I love his work most of the time, CK's suggestion of him skipping sleep and writing every book at DC gives me nightmares! I like variety in my books and Johns has a very samey formula to all the stories he tells, and as enjoyable as that formula often is, it can get kinda boring if you read a bunch of his books in a row.

Grant Morrison - can do (almost) no wrong for me at the moment. I'm a late-comer to his fandom but his run of Seven Soldiers - All-Star Superman - Batman (3 of my favourite storylines of the past decade!) has rocketed him to the top of my writers list. Something else else I never would have expected 15 years ago when I was barely tolerating him on JLA.

JMS - All I've ever read by him are his incredible few issues of Brave & Bold and he's already a writer I'll follow. Very much looking forward to his Superman.

Gail Simone - Too 'hit and miss' for me. I like some of her stuff and think she has some great ideas but her writing often bugs me. I thought Villains United was by far the worst of those Infinite Crisis minis and because of that I've avoided her Secret Six, despite its generally good reviews.

... Too tired to go into the rest in detail but I do think DC has some good up-and-comers. I thought that Prometheus Faces of Evil (or whatever) one-shot was well-written (though I don't remember who wrote it). JT Krul seems to be getting some good reports from around the place though I haven't read anything by him yet I don't think.

If you're still looking to drop those Marvel books you're not enjoying Lard Lad maybe you could tell us what books you're currently buying and we can recommend some for you? Vertigo seems to be firing on all cylinders at the mo so I'm sure you'd find some stuff you like there.

For me, while there was an initial fanboyish appeal to Johns's writing, I found myself bored with his work rather quickly. So much of his stuff basically just consists in making things superficially resemble the way the were X number of years ago [usually late Bronze Age], but with two big differences: 1) the incredibly casual extreme violence tossed in (much of it directed against teenagers/old people); 2) the fact that his storylines in different titles tend to be so inter-connected (as Cobie suggests) that it's difficult to follow them unless you've been reading half DC's titles for the past ten years. The violence would actually be less jarring if the overall mood were grittier, but it seems really out of place with the "retro" feel he seems to be going for so much of the time.

What really bugs me, though, is that while he seems to be really good at playing with continuity, with re-arranging and connecting the pieces, there's a decided lack of genuine inventiveness in his work. So while he's often described as restoring much of DC to its pre-Crisis roots, in a way his stuff is very much the antithesis of the Silver/Bronze Age, which were all about constantly introducing new concepts and new ideas. In this regard, Morrison seems to me much more the heir of the Silver Age than Johns is.

I, on the other hand, have very little good to say about DC's writers, and none of it about their current work.

Geoff Johns will always have a special place in my heart for Green Lantern: Rebirth, the first 25 issues of the GL ongoing, and GLC: Recharge (the last one co-written with Dave Gibbons.) However...I'm still not convinced that Johns was able to keep up the quality of JSA without David Goyer co-writing, Teen Titans lost steam after Mike McKone stopped drawing it (which makes me wonder just how much McKone really contributed), his Superman/LSH run was ham-fisted, and his Flash run is one of the most overrated in the history of DC Comics. What really galls me about Johns is the schizophrenic tone of his writing, alternately sentimental and sensationalistic. The one issue of Blackest Night that I read (the first) was all the worst about Johns in a nutshell, and I haven't read anything of his since.

Gail Simone I already criticized in The Anywhere Machine's "Things You Are Supposed To Like But Really Hate" thread, but it bears repeating -- for all the good things that can be said about her as a person, it doesn't change my opinion that her writing is corny, smug, overly self-conscious and dripping with what passes for irony, and she also portrayed Dinah and Barbara as reverse sexists.

Grant Morrison is the most egregious example of The Cult of Personality since John Byrne from 1981 on, passing off mediocre work as something special thanks to his P.T. Barnum/David Bowie/Madonna-like talent for self-promotion.

Tony Bedard did stellar work for Marvel on Exiles, IMO outdoing the work of all Exiles writers that came before or after him. But what I've read of his DC-exclusive work has been a string of false starts and letdowns (I still haven't washed off the stink of the six issues of R.E.B.E.L.S. that I wasted good money on.)

GrayPal are IMO overrated. I've really wanted to like their work in the past, but never have. I adored the first two issues of Power Girl, but after that their brains seemed to turn to custard.

As for JMS, I've been burned by too much of his sucky work for Marvel (and not just the editorially-mandated stuff -- I thought his Thor was abominable, and he seems to have had pretty much free rein on that) to give him anything more than a wait-til-the-trades-come-into-the-library chance.

^^^ I love your strong opinions DD! I agree with a lot of them but one thing I wonder about is the Grant Morrison/Cult of Personality thing. Maybe this is because I'm a late-comer to his whole 'thing' but it seems to me more like his fans do all the talking/praising/promoting while he sits back and just works. In marked contrast to someone like Mark Millar who takes self-promotion (and self-importance) to aggravatingly painful levels.

P.S. I think you'll like JMS' Brave & Bold run when you get it out from the library. It is so good and so far removed from the death and destruction Didio era of DC Comics that it's a wonder he lets it get published.

B&tB is a huge bright spot in the DCU right now. One issue stories that explore characters motivations and personalities.

Geoff Johns- it's noticeable when he gets stretched too thin. I liked BLACKEST NIGHT, but now see it as a way to get to BRIGHTEST DAY, which shows lots of promise. (Aliveman? I'd buy it for Boston Brand, but with the Hawks, Aquaman and Mera and Osiris, I'm quitle looking forward to it.) I'm kind of mad at him because of Tempest and Damage, though.

GrayPal- Loved, loved, loved their Hawkman run. I wish they'd get the title back, along with a team book. Maybe Teen Titans? I didn't care for the initial POWER GIRL series at all, but liked the last half-dozen or so issues quite a bit.

JMS- Have you heard how he's beginning his WONDER WOMAN run? Paradise Island will have been recently 'destroyed'. Yawn. I liked Simone's WW run more than just about anyone here and wanted more, but I was open to JMS after enjoying his THOR run and the BRAVE and BOLD issues I've read. That openness has now decreased to 'I'll try it but I don't really want to'.

Bedard- Cobie's right... his run on NEGATION was great and makes me think that 5 years or so down the road, I'd like to see him on LSH. I have other issues with the whole REBELS/dot Legion concept, but I've liked more than disliked his current run.

Simone- Secret Six is great, and I am also looking forward to BIRDS OF PREY, but I'll miss her on WW. Isn't there some other project she's been hinting about, or was BOP it? Hawk and Dove as additions to that title's cast doesn't thrill me the way Flamebird and Black Orchid would've... oh, well.

I totally agree with you EDE that Grant Morrison is 100% more Silver Age than Geoff Johns is. No question. Johns is much more late 70s Bronze Age than he is Silver Age to me.

Morrison is all about the "big ideas" which as you mention was a very Silver Age thing.

While Johns' strengths (and weaknesses a lot too) lie in his use of characterisations and character-interaction - a very Bronze Age thing.

I don't agree with you that Johns is completely lacking in inventiveness though. He's nowhere near the creative genius Morisson is and sure, he recycles A LOT but I think his work on Green Lantern over the last few years has been extremely inventive. All the new coloured Corps and their associated characters feel completely 'new' and 'fresh' to me and most important of all - like they are here to stay, like these are all permanent new characters to the Green Lantern story, not just flash-in-the-pans.