Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Before Watchmen

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dc-announces-before-watchmen-120201.html

DC has announced Before Watchmen. 7 mini series with a continuing backup in all of the books. Plus an Epilogue issue at the end of the whole thing.

While there are going to be various opinions on whether or not these should even be produced...they are coming, and I for one am actually looking forward to the event. It really takes nothing away from the original work...if it actually sucks, ignore it. If it's really good, it adds to the overall story.

Alan Moore needs to understand that he wrote this as a work for hire, that had the possibility of reverting rights to him and Dave Gibbons of it was out of print for a certain amount of time...from what I understand.

Too bad for him that he wrote one of the better stories of all time, and it has been in print ever since. It's the price of doing business. He based the original story in the Charlton characters, and only changed it when DC decided that they wanted to do something else with them.

I'm on board for this whole thing, and am looking forward to this event. For whatever reason, I think it looks pretty good, and there is some great talent involved.


I'm going to comment on each of the series below. There is a little order to my choices for best being first, and then going down in interest...but I am looking forward to all of them.

(6 issues) – Writer/Artist: Darwyn Cooke

I'd but this book no matter what it was about. Darwyn writing and drawing a period piece such as this with no real rules to follow is a guarantee to be a good fun read, and be totally beautiful to behold.

I think with him being involved, it gives the whole thing a bit more of a positive spin. He says in one article I read that he initially did not want to be involved, but then an idea hit him that he could get behind...that says a lot for me about this project.




(4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artists: Andy and Joe Kubert

This is the second book that I am really looking forward to. I like the Nite Owl character, and while Straczynski can sometimes be hit or miss, I think this is a great arena for him. Plus the Kuberts on art...WIN!

(4 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: Lee Bermejo

Azzarello writing Rorschach?!?!?! I cannot think really of a better writer. Lee Bermejo, artist of the Joker Graphic Novel...this looks to be good, and could easily bounce to #2 on my favorites list.




(6 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: J.G. Jones

Okay...they got him to write 2 of the baddest characters in the series. This looks great as well, plus J.G. Jones on art makes this another winner.

(4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artist: Adam Hughes

I can see Straczynski doing a good job with this...and at the very least, it s going to look absolutely gorgeous.




(4 issues) – Writer: Darwyn Cooke. Artist: Amanda Conner

Cooke + Conner = Another great book. This should probably be higher on my list and probably will as it comes closer.




(6 issues) – Writer: Len Wein. Artist: Jae Lee

Gotta say, not too sure on this one...I liked Len's stuff way back when...not sure what he has done recently though. Jae Lee will give this a good look no matter what though.




back-up written by Len Wein and illustrated by John Higgins

The book that will be in all of the books. This might be interesting, it has worked with such books as the original Rune story from the Ultraverse. It could be too disjointed though being only a couple pages an issue though. I know that John Higgins did one of the War Story books with Garth Ennis, so that means I like him.

I'm buying these just to piss Moore off. So nyahhhh.

I gotta say...that in and of itself is a reason.

Beat me to the punch starting this thread, Dev! Here are my thoughts:

On one hand, I agree with Alan Moore that these prequels are cash-grabs and curiously-timed ones at that. I mean, Watchmen popularity probably peaked in the late '80s and '90s and had interest re-swirl around it a few years ago when the movie came out. Why not around the time the movie came out? Why not any time between the original release and the year the movie came out? Why NOW?!?!

Plus, well, Watchmen itself is positively LOADED with all the backstory we really need if you think about it. I'd say half or more of the thing is backstory already and the other half (maybe less than half?) is what's going on in the present! Do we really need to know any more than we are already given? Sure, there are a few things left to the imagination, but is that a bad thing?!? I don't think so. Watchmen is pretty much perfect and complete on its own, so prequels (or sequels) feel damned unnecessary.

I mean, remember how 'well' Dark Knight Strikes Again made for a sequel to its classic forbear? )

So what am I going to do? My plan is to get only one of these in floppies, Minutemen, because it's the one that DARWYN-fucking-COOKE!!! is both writing and drawing and I just can't resist that guy's stuff. As for the rest, I'll keep my eyes open for reviews and recommendations and either cave and add one or two of these to the pull or trade-wait on them. No way is DC gonna get me to buy all 34 floppies though--that's GUARANT-damn-TEED!

I hope everyone who is a Watchmen fan will chime in on this thread about where they stand on the controversy of this thing!!!!

Not sure how well the Dark Knight Strikes Again comparison holds up though Lardy.

That was a cash grab by the same creator, who totally f'ed over his loyal fans with a piece of shite. I got it for a buck a pop, and I want my 3 bucks back.

There is a ton of backstory in Watchmen, but there is a whole lot that is not there. Depending on when these books are actually set, there are whole careers left to explore. The backstory in the original was what was needed to make the original what it was.

Which of course leads into the argument of why even do this then. The real answer is...money. Pure and simple. Well that, and id Cooke says he had a revelation of a story to tell...that's enough for me to get every issue of Minutemen at least...and probably The Silk Spectre. The others, well, several have teams that totally intrigue me, and well...that leaves one series I'd say I'm a little shaky on.

My thoughts have pretty much already been posted. This is totally not needed from a storytelling perspective. Watchmen is a complete work of art - it stands on it's own. DC owns the rights and it was inevitable that they were eventually going to cash in. They're bringing in top tier talent, so some will be tempting to pick up. Minute Men has my interest the most. But there's just no way I'm going to shell out the bucks for all of them. It would totally bust my comic book budget.

I'd say it holds up in comparison as an example of a perfectly-good standalone classic that we thought we wanted more of but now wish we never did. DKR and Watchmen are always mentioned as high-water marks in comics literature, so it's hard not to compare when the latter gets a continuation of sorts, as well.

So if we got enough backstory in the original to make it feel complete, why give us more?

That's the obvious goal for DC, but even with that in mind, I question the logic. This could potentially be a bust for them. Like I said, the window for this to have created the most possible income for DC has probably already passed. And if enough people feel put off by the contoversy and perceived disrespect to the original, it could potentiall be a disaster! I personally think it will do pretty well, but the potential for it not to is there.

I love back and forths with you Lardy. So much fun to look at all sides of things.

The thing is, this whole argument can be used for any character or story. Why should anyone other than Ian Fleming written about James Bond? Why should there be and Dune books without Frank Herbert? Should anyone have written about Spider-Man after Stan Lee stopped? Should The New Gods have stopped when Jack Kirby left DC?

The argument can be made either way for any of them...I can see both sides of the Watchmen thing. But, for once, I'm just jumping in to have a bit of fun with something. I love the original story, but think that the talent involved with this can pull off something really good.

Here's a good Bleeding Cool article (actually a repost of an article from December--BC broke this story long before it was made "official" by DC) on the ethics of this whole thing. Interestingly enough, it appears Paul Levitz stood in the way of this thing while he was publisher at DC, feeling that any prequels or otherwise would diminish the original.

Never let it be said that I shy away from these things!

But to rebutt that last thing, Watchmen is unique from most things in that it was designed as a story with a complete beginning, middle and end and in an era that was just prior to one that birthed more and more creators having rights, including some rights for work-for-hire (mostly royalties). The Silver Age and before (and most of the Bronze), your choices were pretty much work-for-hire or own your own work in small press and struggle to make ends meet. Guys like Alan Moore brought comics wider recognition as a valid art form and made it more and more clear that it was the creators, not the characters, that made the stories classics.

Like him or hate him, comics creators owe a lot to Alan Moore and other guys like him who made better treatment for them possible.

What would JMS do if someone did something with Babylon 5 without his permission or involvement? CBR has JMS's response. If his response from Moore's perspective is accurate, it seems that DC went out of its way to treat Moore more than fairly with this. Apparently Moore had the chance to own the rights if he participated!

The Hobbit was complete, why the hell did he write Lord of the Rings? Bilbo's story was whole and satisfactory, what did it have to gain by bringing in a nephew that we never heard of?

I'm sure after the Star Wars prequels, people are reasonably reticent to spend money on Before Watchmen, and that's fine and reasonable, but the whole "unnecessary" label to me just makes no sense. The original Watchmen was unnecessary too. Superman is and was unnecessary. The new 52 sure as hell was unnecessary. The entire industry is unnecessary.

But hey, Clone Wars seems to be doing okay for Lucas. And after all those Batman animated series, I'm still glad they made Brave and the Bold.

I mean, I know you mean "unnecessary to the original story", but is any issue of Superman necessary to those that came before? And who says anyone's trying to add to that particular story arc in the Watchmen's timeline anyway?

Yeah, I guess the word just bugs me in this context.

A more logical question might be "Why do prequels, because you know where the story has to go?" Well that of course is a problem, but the bigger problem is that most of the Watchmen were dead at the end of the original, so it's hard to use the characters people want to read about later in that particular timeline.

At least in a world where death means something and isn't reversed, which is one thing I think drew people to Watchmen.

It's probably better to just ask what they think they'll achieve, and whether it's likely they'll manage that.

Why give us more? Well certainly some people want more, and obviously they hope enough people do that they'll make some money.

Now my favorite part of the whole Tolkien oeuvre is the Silmarillion, so I don't have a problem with prequels and "historical" pieces. Though I also understand I never would have cared about the Silmarillion if I hadn't known LoTR first.

Oh, forgot I had a question.

The Watchmen were originally the Charlton heroes, but wasn't the Comedian the exception?

And looking at the cover posted above, I can't believe it never occurred to me before that he's a version of the Joker, trying very hard to be a hero.

I'm pretty much 100% with Lardy and Jerry on this. On one hand, I really see no point from a larger creative standpoint, but on the other hand, I have too much love and respect for one or two of the creators not to pick it up (and likely be blown away by it).

I find the argument that "DC owns the characters and will make money with them" to be inherently true. However, the same argument applies to "insurance companies can deny your claims if they do not fit exactly within the policy wording" and "oil companies can raise gas prices to whatever they want if the market is going that way". So sure, corporations make money. Doesn't mean its morally good. At the end of the day, this isn't something I feel all that emotional about, its just if we're going to go there, let's be 100% honest about it.

Where I stand in terms of the morals of the whole thing is there is no need for sequels and prequels to Watchmen, as it is a masterpiece that stands entirely on its own. This is akin to Phantom Menace more than anything, except the creator involved is getting squeezd. Clearly Moore regrets ever signing any contract with DC, and this is exactly why. It's no wonder modern creators don't create new concepts for the major corporations Warner Bros. and Disney (oops, I mean DC and Marvel); why would you? They'll just consume it like a Roman army sacking a major city, and you'll have to sit by and watch.

Moving on to the books themselves and what I will or will not be getting. Like Lardy and Jerry there is no way DC is getting me to pick up all of these. My general outlook is: I won't even bother trying it unless it looks like something I absolutely can't live without. There are very few of these in the industry in general, but here there is at least one, possibly two.

I love Darwyn Cooke and he is my favorite comic book creator, so I'll definitely be getting Minute Men. I also like Amanda Conner quite a bit, and Cooke is writing her title, so probably I'll get at least the first issue of Silk Spectre.

While I recognize Azzerello and JMS have done some great stuff, both IMO tend to do just as many bad comic books as they do good ones. Since I have a bad taste in my mouth about the whole project in general, I'll probably skip all of their comics from the onset since I don't trust either writer to deliver. Lastly, while I'm a big of Len Wein and Jae Lee, it's just not enough to overcome my feelings for the project.

A few more of my opinions on Watchmen:

Yes, it was based on the Charlton heroes at first but at the end of the day, Moore did not use those characters. He did somethign entirely different. I co-own and have read all of the Charlton heroes stories before Watchmen was published, I can say with 100% accuracy that there is almost nothing at all similar between them and Watchmen beyond an aethestic 'look'. The Watchmen characters are entirely different. Sure, there is a handful of similar 'looks', like Rorschach and the Question have a trenchcoat and fedora hat, but their personalities are totally different. Obviously, Moore would have taken any characters from anywhere and applied his own stamp on them.

I will admit, however, a major point. If not for DC Comics or a similar corporate entity, Moore could have probably gotten this done elsewhere but it would not have gotten the exposure Watchmen did and therefore, might not have been successful. DC didn't contribute all that much creatively, but they certainly did utilizing their distribution, marketing and corporate partnership platform. It's impossible to say how much that helped. But clearly, Watchmen was a hit from Day #1; it very easily could have been an obscure 80's OGN that was only given its recognition 15-20 years after it was published. Hell, most people still have never read Maus or A Contract with God.

From what I vaguely recall, Moore wanted to use the Charlton characters, meaning these personalities (roughly) would have been what "became" of them, mixed I suppose with a little bit of "this is what they were all along but we didn't see it", and of course some plain old reinterpretation.

Once they determined the Charlton characters wouldn't be used, I'm sure he departed even more from the previously published characters.

Since then, some of the originals have taken bits from Watchmen. The Question became a conspiracy theorist (at least in JL animated) and Captain Atom turned all silver.

Answering my own question from earlier, Wikipedia says the Comedian was based on Peacemaker.

Ah, that makes sense on the Comedian. Interesting.

I know Hooded Justice of the Minute Men is based on an old Quality Comics (or another company) character. I think one or two others might be based on non-Charlton characters as well.

And no character's listed as being inspired by Judomaster.

I thought Ozzy was loosely based on Judomaster.

Most material I've read says he's based on Peter Cannon- Thunderbolt, and he's certainly got that same "using the full potential of body and mind" thing going.

Weird...I never thought of Peter Cannon -Thubnderbolt. I just always thought he was modeled after Judomaster.

The others are pretty straightforward.