Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

I don't mind characters growing up naturally. DICK TRACY started out as a bachelor; he adopted an oprhan long before he got married and had kids of his own. "Life" went on!

Gwen Stacy, on the other hand... this "SHOCKING MOMENT-- FROM WHICH NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!!!!" stuff, is a load of C***!!!

And I just thought of something... you know how in recent decades, that some fans have complained about certain "artists" who think they're "writers"? One of my favorite artists was responsible for that mess!!! DAMN you, John Romita!!!



Okay, to be honest... I LOVED MJ, and hated Gwen Stacy. But after Stan pushed the Pete & Gwen relationship against all odds and all common sense, it was really a case of people getting "cold feet" and not wanting to progress to the next logical, natural development. Or, according to Romita, it was a case of just trying to "shake things up" while simultaneously "paying tribute" to his hero-- Milton Caniff-- who'd once killed off Steve Canyon's girlfriend in the papers, which caused readers to talk about it for months-- or years-- after. Good grief...

I know, this is decades behind us... but that one event seems to have-- ahem-- "inspired" dozens of later writers to keep trying to out-do each other in the "SHOCKING EVENT!!!" category.

In current Avengers news, I browsed through Mighty Avengers # 2 at my local comic shop yesterday, and it continues to be in the so-bad-it's-funny category. The team spends the whole story standing around, sporadically getting blasted by She-Ultron. To break up the monotony, we get more flashbacks to the formation of the team, but these only serve as further proof of how clueless Bendis is about these characters. Moving on to Avengers: Initiative, the extensive previews posted at Newsarama are so bad, they have almost convinced me to not even bother browsing through it any more. The upcoming appearance of Dani Moonstar is the only thing that prevents me from simply turning my back on that book.

And that's precisely why I never have a problem with a non-traditional Avengers lineup, and in fact prefer it to a more traditional lineup.

Interesting point, because it relates to a certain pet peeve of my own. The key word is "crutch". Now, I'll admit I'm biased because I personally didn't like Hank as a cross between Dr. Who and Snapper Carr. The appeal to me of costumed superheroes is that they allow the characters to express their truest selves, at the risk of being humiliated or attacked yet gritting their teeth and expressing themselves anyway. So a Hank who decides to turn back on his truest self doesn't work for me at all. Another example is She-Hulk. To me, the real She-Hulk is the one who is big and green 24 hours a day. I've read posts about her current self, who goes back and forth between mousy lawyer Jennifer and big ball-buster She-Hulk, being described on another forum as "Jennifer no longer using She-Hulk as a crutch." I don't see it that way at all. I see it as She-Hulk (and Hank) giving in to the pressures of society, and I don't like that.

And, on a simpler level, Hank as Giant-Man and always-big-and-green She-Hulk are the verisons of these characters that go back to my personal favorite era in comics, a little bit on both sides of 1993. On that level, my opinion is purely subjective.

And that's precisely why I never have a problem with a non-traditional Avengers lineup, and in fact prefer it to a more traditional lineup.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with non-tradional lineups, either. Though I prefer some combination of "my" five Avengers (Thor, IM, Cap, Vizh, Wanda) to be present, I also regard new recruits as a necessity. Some of the best storylines in Avengers history have involved The Swordsman, Mantis, Beast, Wonder Man, and others.

The appeal to me of costumed superheroes is that they allow the characters to express their truest selves [...]. So a Hank who decides to turn back on his truest self doesn't work for me at all.

The whole point of the Stern and Englehart story lines was that being Dr. Pym was Hank's true self.

That was the impression that I'd gotten from it as well. That the reason why he was never comfortable in the 'skins' of Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath or Yellowjacket is that these were assumed identities and not truly 'him.' None of the other founding Avengers seemed as dissatisfied with their identities, so it was a sign of actual character growth for him to realize that no rotating series of masks was going to fix the problem. If anything, the masks *were* the problem.

He had 'Stark syndrome' before even Stark.

[By 'Stark syndrome,' I mean a tendency to put on the mask to avoid seeing that other face, which Stark has taken to the logical, if psychotically dissociative, next stage of completely denying responsibility for anything he has ever done wrong, lying to himself, his fellow Avengers and the rest of the world about who was responsible for rampages like the Armor Wars, which was the first time he has been responsible for killing a fellow super-hero (and assaulted a bunch of others), but, sadly, not the last.]

In my opinion, Dr. Pym was just as much of a mask as Yellowjacket and Ant-Man, and Giant-Man is Hank's true self. I think the concept of the costumed superhero is analogous to real-lfie people who dress unconventionally, and/or wear their hair unconventionally, and/or practice alternative lifestyles. For a lot of people, this is a passing phase before the get older and start acting and looking "normal." But there's also a lot of people who try to be "normal" because they're so insecure and they worry so much about what other people think of them -- in many cases, they become depressed and suicidal. I think Hank was completely fooling himself by thinking he should just be Dr. Pym -- that was a cop-out which I believe would have led him to becoming depressed and suicidal a second time. Becoming Giant-Man again saved his life, and from there he spent a few years confident and angst-free. If the writers who followed Harras had respected continuity and left well enough alone, he'd probably still be confident and angst-free.

"But there's also a lot of people who try to be "normal" because they're so insecure and they worry so much about what other people think of them -- in many cases, they become depressed and suicidal. I think if Hank had stayed Dr. Pym longer, he would have gotten depressed and suicidal -- which he already went through just before he became Dr. Pym. I think he was completely fooling himself by thinking he should just be Dr. Pym -- that was the easy way out. Becoming Giant-Man again saved his life, and from there he spent a few years confident and angst-free. If the writers who followed Harras had respected continuity and left well enough alone, he'd probably still be confident and angst-free."

As I mentioned earlier, Pym DID become depressed and in fact DID try to commit suicide-- during the Englehart run of WCA!! It came as a shock to me reading it, because it just seemed to come out of nowhere. Here, Roger Stern was trying to convince us that he'd gotten himself back together-- Steve Englehart was apparently taking it to the next level-- and then-- where did THIS come from??? He was "saved", in part, by Firestar (if memory serves), who'd "gotten religion".

I'm really wishing I'd read the bulk of Harras' run now...


I think it's safe to "blame" Gerry Conway and Jim Shooter for all this in the long run. Conway drove Englehart so crazy in such a short time he quit Marvel and actually planned to quit comics altogether-- and I know from personal experience how ONE person can screw you and your career up like that. Then Shooter pulled his number of Pym-- TWICE-- and the 2nd time, he was in charge, so who was gonna stop him?

This makes me wonder what Englehart might've done if he HADN'T left Marvel (and THE AVENGERS) when he did, way back in the 70's.

Firebird/Espirita, not Firestar.

"Firebird/Espirita, not Firestar."

Well, I was close!

I think the concept of the costumed superhero is analogous to real-lfie people who dress unconventionally, and/or wear their hair unconventionally, and/or practice alternative lifestyles.

I agree with this analogy, and believe it fits most super-heroes (Spider-Man, for example). But there are people who "conform to non-conformity" merely because they are trying to fit in with someone they perceive to be more powerful or attractive. Some children, for example, dress rebelliously not to express themselves, but to fit in with other kids who dress that way and are perceived as strong or cool.

Consider, also, girls who suffer from annorexia or bullimia because they want to look thin, like models.

During Stern's trial of Yellowjacket arc, Hank explains to a psychiatrist that one of the reasons he became Giant-Man was to impress Jan, whose flirtatious comments about Thor made Hank feel insecure. Stern brilliantly used a minor and long-forgotten aspect of Jan's personality to show how it must have felt to her boyfriend, at the time, to be compared, literally, to a god.

I think of Hank's transition from Yellow Jacket to plain ol' Dr. Pym a natural transition, but like Stealth, I also think that his switch back to Giant-Man was as natural a transition as any for the character.

What it did was not place Hank squarely back in 'angst-ridden adventurer super-hero', but show him in the light of a man who has the intelligence and wits to help out, powers that could be helpful, and the courage and bravery to use them despite a long-standing preference to *not* use them for many years/months. When he became Giant-Man once more, in an effort to save the team of Avengers when all else had failed, he didn't do so out of any insecurities or because he wanted to be adulated, but because he knew he had the experience and the means, and that deep down, Hank is a super-hero in the Marvel Universe, and in one of the truest senses a 'Silver Age Super-Hero' aka Scienctist/Explorer/Adventurer.

I also think that he was deluduing himself for years by thinking that being plain 'ol Dr. Pym was what he truly wanted. Now, I do think Stern's story was excellent and achieved the idea that Hank could put behind him his troubles with Jan, his feelings of insecurity and his inability to create a real identity for himself. After becoming 'Hank Pym' again, after dismissing his countless identities, there was something still lacking from this, and that was the idea that deep down he's a hero, and he has the powers and the know-how to make a difference. It was only during Harras' run that he was presented with a 'do or die' opportunity and he seized the moment and did what was right and for the first time in ages felt an aspect of himself that he hadn't felt in a long time, and was complete again.

By the end of Harras' run, Hank was Giant-Man. He should never have become Ant-Man or Yellow Jacket again (the latter laid to rest by Stern years earlier). And plain ol' Dr. Pym, while being the dominant part of Hank's personality, was lacking something that Giant-Man made up for. (Also, Giant Man basically = Goliath, so I see little difference there. If anything, I wish he was Goliath now as a tribute to Bill Foster, who longtime fans should know was one of Hank's best friends).

Harras did a great job thereafter showing Hank as the scientist Avenger he was meant to be, without dwelling on any of his personnal problems that have become beyond redundant at this point, showing that he had grown and moved on from them and was now complete. Its too bad we never got to see what was in store next for *that* Hank, since I believe Busiek's entire run with Hank was a means to somehow get him back in the Yellow Jacket costume. If anything, there should just have been a new Yellow Jacket to satisfy anyone who wanted to see that costume back in action.

I guess what I'm saying is that sure, Hank grew past all those identities during Stern's story and naturally moved on as Dr. Pym. But there was something missing, because he couldn't simply forget about all his experiences and couldn't deny that he had the means to make a difference out there. So by returning as Giant-Man in that story, he was able to find the final piece of himself that was missing.

I kinda liked the Rita DeMar (?) Yellowjacket. The notion of Hank Pym creating and casting off super-hero persona, which then get picked up by others (like Scott Lang), was kinda neat.

Unfortunately, every single super-hero that Pym has created has died. Black Goliath. Clint Barton - Goliath. Rita - Yellowjacket. Lang - Ant-Man. Jocasta. Atlas has the ionic energy thing bringing him back to life, but he's died at least twice. It's like the curse of Pym...

And Atlas is currently in a bad way - he's currently stuck giant-sized-and-depowered in Germany (depowered meaning he doesn't have the strength to move, speak or crap. That catheter's going to be a doozy...).

You know, for most of the Busiek run, certain things kept frustrating me-- but I tended to brush them aside because, compared to 90% of what Marvel was doing around then, it was pretty damn good. By comparison! The longer his run went on, though... AI YI YI!!!

I think I'd have to agree with most of what's been said here about Hank Pym. The one exception, for me, is that Stern should have NEVER had Hank & Jan go their separate ways. I guess I'm just from a different generation, but 2 people who'd been together as long as they had and been as much in love as they were should have been able to work things out. The fact that they got back together eventually just proves it. It just keeps looking to me like one writer determined to do whatever they wanted, character history be damned, and other, later writers, determined to "fix" what other writers screwed over.

It's not that I don't appreciate the "fixes". Without them, many longtime series would be in even worse shape today than they are. It's just that most of these "fixes" should never have been "necessary"!

I loved Rita. I mentioned in this thread a while ago that I was planning to do a series of fanfics which would have taken place in an alternate timeline which diverged at the point where Stern's run ended. Rita would have been one of the stars. I had an origin story for her and everything (I don't know if she ever had an origin story in Guardians of the Galaxy, since I wasn't into that book, but even if she did, my stories took place outside of Earth-616 anyway.) I had plans for Rita to become the latest ex-villain to join the Avengers, for Wasp to forgive her and become her friend, for She-Hulk to also become her friend, for Rita to start a relationship with Scott Lang and become a mother figure to Cassie Lang, and for a Masters of Evil storyarc where the Masters, now led by Moonstone, try to blackmail Rita into betraying the Avengers.

I may still write those stories. Time will tell.

What it did was not place Hank squarely back in 'angst-ridden adventurer super-hero', but show him in the light of a man who has the intelligence and wits to help out, powers that could be helpful, and the courage and bravery to use them despite a long-standing preference to *not* use them for many years/months.

I just want to say that this is nicely argued, well supported, and highly convincing, Cobie.

I haven't read (or don't remember reading) the stories in question, so I haven't formed an opinion on them. But I can accept that Hank would become Giant-Man once more if he thought doing so would serve the greater good. (I'm not sure if this means he would continue being GM permanently, but that's a different issue.)

Did anyone read the recent BEYOND miniseries? It featured a Hank Pym that was definitely still an adventurer, though an unmasked, uncostumed one. He used the 'pym particle' powers of shrinking/enlarging objects (including the whole cast at one point, I think) rather than focusing on 'personal' size changing. To me, this seemed much more like Hank Pym than anything Marvel's published in years.

Anyway, I thought it was a fun rendition of Hank-- much more so than anything featuring the character in that Yellowjacket costume (why other Marvel characters don't run for the hills as soon as they see that black and yellow number is beyond me...) Seriously, I wish some character or other would make this observation. Currently, there are too many hating on him, though.

I always thought it'd be a cool storyline for Hank to mentor a small team comprised of an Ant-man, a Giant-man and a Yellowjacket-- each with personality conflicts similar to ones Hank has experienced. This would depend upon him being relatively stable for a period of time before the story's opening, however. That doesn't look likely to occur for some time, given the current regime's attitude towards the character.

(why other Marvel characters don't run for the hills as soon as they see that black and yellow number is beyond me...)

While re-reading the Stern issues, it occurred to me that Hank should have run whenever he saw that costume. The shoulder doohickeys were so high, he couldn't possibly have seen over them. Who would want to go into battle with their vision obstructed like a horse with blinders? Perhaps Hank had suicidal tendencies even then.

Any idea who designed the Yellowjacket costume? John Romita? John Buscema? Roy Thomas? (I seriously doubt it was Jack Kirby... heh heh.)

Thanks HWW! I've got to say that I'm honestly thrilled that so many people like Hank, and the majority of us all want to see good things for him. I feel like even if there's some small disagreement, its more like we're almost all on the same side of the coin.

The other side being Jim Shooter, Brian Bendis, etc.

The Hank issue and the well-spoken arguements (particulurly the respectable nature of them so far) is one of the reasons I check this thread so regularly!

As for the costume, I feel like it was Jr. Sr. for some reason. But I can't remember where I read that now.

I agree 100%. That was Hank! Nice to see you again buddy. It's been over a decade!

"As for the costume, I feel like it was Jr. Sr. for some reason. But I can't remember where I read that now."

You mean J.R. Sr., right? Or, as I like to just call him... "JOHN ROMITA". (the "real" one)

Seems like in the early 60's Kirby was designing every new character that came along-- unless Steve Ditko was doing them. But after Romita came onboard at the start of 1966, he began doing more and more and more for Stan. I guess that's what happens when you're working IN the office all the time-- it's just too easy for the editor to pull you aside and ask "Could you do THIS?" I read Romita felt it would be easier to focus and get more work done if he wasn't doing it at home. The flip side of that was, his run on ASM was REPEATEDLY interrupted by other projects. (In a way, it's similar to what happened with John Buscema on THE AVENGERS-- Stan kept yanking him away for other projects as well. Did Stan have a problem focusing??)

When I think of Romita costumes, I'm afraid the ones that keep sticking in my mind-- and not in a good way-- are all those "open shirt" things he did in the early 70's. Seems every character-- including the WOMEN!!! --were showing more and more skin. For the women, none of those outfits looked as good as the one he was no doubt inspired by... Vampirella's. (Costume designed by Trina Robbins, if memory serves!)

There's a funny thing that happened much later where Jack Kirby once did a cover (or pin-up) of The Avengers, included both Giant-Man and Yellowjacket in the line-up, apparently because he didn't know they were supposed to be the same guy!

Speaking of Hank's costumes, anyone know who designed the yellow/blue one? I always liked that one...

I'd guess it might have been Jack Kirby, if only because Jack drew several covers with Goliath featured prominently on them at the time.

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=20047&zoom=4

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=20186&zoom=4

Some random Avengers-related thoughts:

1A. Writers I would like to see on Avengers: Alan Grant, Dave Gibbons, Tony Bedard, Roger Stern, Peter David, Fabian Nicieza, Mark Waid, Mike Carey, Gail Simone

1B. Writers I don’t ever want to see on Avengers: Joe Casey, Ed Brubaker, Judd Winick, Greg Rucka, Keith Giffen, J. Michael Straczyniski, Dan Jurgens

2. Until re-reading the Busiek era for this thread, I’d never before admitted to myself just how much I dislike that era. I’m seriously considering putting the Busiek issues in my collection up for sale.

3. In my opinion, She-Ultron is the latest proof that Bendis is a misogynist.

4. One particular criticism of the Harras era that angers me is the claim that alternate-universe counterparts are like something out of the X-Men. The concept of alternate-universe counterparts didn’t originate in Claremont’s X-Men, as these people seem to think. They originated in JLA during the Silver Age. One development I would have loved to see in the Avengers is the discovery of an alternate universe where the planet has not been devastated and where the Avengers of both worlds befriend each other and have a team-up every year, in the same spirit as the JLA/JSA team-ups, which happened every year from the early 1960s to the early 1980s.

5. One particular scene that I hate from the first Shooter era is from the “attacked by the Ant-Man” issue where the Scarlet Witch panics when the ants are crawling all over her. Englehart’s Scarlet Witch would have calmly hexed away the ants with a flick of her wrist.