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I thought that Legion fans generally accepted all versions on their own merits, regardless of which version was their favorite one.
It doesn't seem to be so and I find it mind-boggling too. One fan in another forum hated DC for "its shameless catering to Legion geezers" just because an older version of the Legion is resurrected, more or less. I really can't relate to that at all. I don't want to sound judgmental but I can't help but wonder how genuine some fans are or/and how honest in their opinions.
Feeling threatened because there are readers who want ONE MORE Legion book is just plain..uhh..silly. Denying other peoples' "right" to want a legion version they like, using buzzwords/phrases like "geezers", "nostalgia", "it's just the costumes they want" etc is like an insult to older fans' intelligence, not to mention disappointing...

Please excuse the rant. It's just that...well...
..you know. The Legion has always been about acceptance and i can't help but wonder whether some fans are able to *see* that integral part of a comic book they are so passionate about. It's a sentimental approach but I don't think it's less valuable than a cold, pragmatic, critical approach or a "wow, kewl" thing. I believe that we basically read comics for the "sense of wonder" they give us, and it's based on a feeling/sentiment/emotion.

How can it "threaten" something that's has been practically dead for almost 2 decades? It doesn't seem very logical.
It'd be far more accurate to say the 3boot Legion "threatened" the Reboot since it replaced it, or that the classic Legion appearing in Action "threatens" the 3boot because of the possibility it'll replace it (I hope it won't and we'll have two or three Legion books).
If one wasn't a fan of the 3boot (I like it in general and read it semi-religiously every month) one could even go so far as declare that the 3boot is the one version that "threatens" the Legion, original or not, because it's so far removed as a universe from all other Legion versions.
My point, Tromium, is that a criterion, a standard or a maxim, can and should be used fairly in all cases, otherwise the person who uses it in an argument loses all objectivity and his rationale falls flat.

The difference is that the threeboot isn't being sold to us under the pretense that it *is* the original Legion, which I think is what a lot of people are annoyed at. Many of us who are first and foremost fans of the Silver Age/pre-Crisis Legion/DCU are willing to appreciate alternative versions on their own merits, but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't, on the eve of the Legion anniversary, especially when they just reintroduced a mechanism (alternate earths) which could very easily have allowed us to have the genuine Earth-1 Superman and Earth-1 Legion back without *any* needless changes to their continuity to conform with "New Earth" or whatever, is something that I find kind of offensive as a pre-Crisis fan. Of course, it's fairly typical of DC's overall approach to comics these days, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

There are also a lot of people - classic Legion fans - who are not annoyed by it at all and either enjoy a good story with the classic Legion, or are happy to see the "original" back. Those who feel it's the original have as much right to be happy about it as those who are annoyed by the use of the word "original" have the right to be annoyed. And the debate goes on which is also good.

I'm not sure about fans who just don't care about the old Legion, but I feel we're making a mountain out of molehill regarding the use of the word "original".
Personally, I'd have been much happier if DC had used the word "classic" Legion instead of "original" and yes, after all is said and done I believe it's matter of different definitions of the term "original" as applied to a work of fiction.

The nostalgia-fans don't bother me. The people who've put thought into their preference for this Legion over any other don't bother me. The intrigued new readers don't bother me. Anybody who has liked what they have seen and want to see more, doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the people who get righteous about it.

I'd say issue #2. Invisible Kid, Brainy and Violet taking down Elysion. The Colu issue was good. There may be more that aren't coming to mind at the moment.

Name one.

Johns's Legion doesn't have a track record yet. We've only caught glimpses of them, really.

If DC wants me to be enthusiastic about Johns's Legion, they can do at least one of two things:

1. Stop calling them the original Legion.
2. Put them in a good story where they're not just supporting characters.

Until that happens (and I hope it does happen!), I accept them as a valid version of the Legion... but I can't give them credit for having a long and/or proud history, because they don't have one of either kind.

EDE just beat me to the response, but I'll reiterate. The Multiverse is big enough they *could* have come back from the (practically) dead with all their history -- except for the Johnsboot preventing it from happening. Aye, there's the rub.

Oh, but I do have objective standards and criteria for determining such things, and they are very fair and emprically sound, imo. I'm an amateur local historian to whom the word "original" has special significance. So, let's say I have copies of original church records I discovered in some dusty, moldy archive proving John C. Smith, born 21 September 1739 in Pleasantville OH was a Quaker farmer who was trampled to death by oxen in 1781, when some bigwig historian with two Ph.D.s wrote a 280 page dissertation insisting he was the Episcopalian blacksmith who shoed George Washington's horse at Yorktown in 1783. I won't relent until that bigwig historian admits in print in a recognized scholarly journal that he was wrong and publishes the real story of John C. Smith -- however "mountain out of molehill" trivial it might seem to the vast majority of people -- simply because it's the historical truth.

Same with the original Legion -- and it doesn't matter one bit that it's a work of fiction -- it has its own a historical truth. I have all the documents (old Legion comic book stories written before Crisis) I need in evidence that the Johnsboot isn't the original Legion, and DC's pronouncements to the contrary won't make me surrender my stance. Their ownership of the property has no bearing on the argument. If it did, their commercial interests would be a point against them.

In addition to empirical proofs, I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.

So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?

I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.

I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...

So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill

It is exactly an academic discussion. But that's okay, as that's one of the levels on which I appreciate the Legion.

I'm fully prepared to enjoy this version of the Legion, and I hope I eventually get to see them in a story of their own. I'm not prepared to say that they're something they're not.

This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.

There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.

I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.

The way I look at it is this.

There are so many different kinds of ways in which this Legion diverges from the original Legion that, while I could look past most (if not all) of them in isolation, all together they produce a situation where I sometimes have a hard time imagining how anyone can mistake them for the original Legion.

I think most of us can agree that it is not exactly the Pre-Crisis Legion,But for me its the closest thing in nearly twenty years,One of the most important things about the Legion to me is its long history that was lost due to Crisis on Infinite Earths and Byrnes Superman reboot,And if Johns can restore a some of that history and bring back most of the personalities and relationships of those characters he will have accomplished something that has not been seen in the last twenty years of reboots restoring the Legion's continuity instead of destroying it and starting over.

Give me time, I'm sure I could make up a list showing just how many divergences there are between Shooter's Legion and Levitz's Legion.

Kent you hit the nail on the head with me with the Star Wars/Fifth Element comparison!

Johns has gone the mythic/powerful (and yes nostalgic) route with this one. The threeboot (& ZH) for me were the Fifth Element. Mind you I liked the film but I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Though Shooter getting his hands on the latest Legion has all kinds of possibilites and I don't want them nostalgic or mythic to tell the truth. Two different Legion and two different styles.

hmm, well, I had hoped to avoid the "academic" criticism when I inserted this unabashedly subjective sentiment in my last post:
Maybe his characters resonate with fans who began reading in 1974 or 1984, I dunno, but for me they resonate only with Geoff Johns trademarked high-gloss superficiality. Take Dream Girl's stupid "joke" about Hitler vs Brainiac 5 in the Lightning Saga, for example. And this clever little quip from Action #858:

"Aw, take that magnet out of your butt and let him come with us, Rokk. Look at him, he needs a laugh."

That iconic? Mythic? Resonant? Nah, I challenge anyone here to come up with a more painfully bad line in the past 15 years of Legion comic books.

May the ghosts of Otto Binder and Mort Weisinger rise from their tombs and blow cigar smoke in GJ's face. That is my curse.

Well IF it was in Interlac it would've been great! As for your challenge?

"Eat it grandpa!"

The problem with "original" is that THAT Superboy isn't around and probably never will be. Superman has changed so much, etc.

Also what about Dev-Em? He's running around the 21st century as a Phantom Zone villain? Does this Legion not have their good ole Dev-Em?

Anyways, the next issue comes out THIS Wednesday! Yay!

Tromium said I don't need any proof because basically I don't care if it's the original Legion or not. Dubbing it the *original* or a *reboot* has not the slightest influnece on whether I'll like it or not or whether I'll feel it's the Legion that I love.
The only "proof" I can give you that the Legion in Action is as close to the original as possible today, is the one you also gave me:
"I'm a fan of the Legion since 1968, have read practically every story that has been published in the past 49 years -more than once - and I definitely would know the characters I grew up with and they would resonate with me. The Legion in Action IS that Legion."

But!

Do you see that neither your "proof" nor mine is actually proof of anything? It's completely subjective and also a logical fallacy called "ad verecundiam" or "appeal to authority" (not to mention another fallacy that's "appeal to emotion"). In this case both you and I used ourselves as authorities because of how long we've been reading the Legion.
It doesn't work like that, Tromium. Not if we want to be objective - and openminded - about it.

As for empirical proof that the Legion in Action is not a "continuation" of the classic Legion, I believe you'll agree that there's very little of it yet. Concluding that it IS or it is NOT the original Legion from the available material at this point, is simply not possible. One can hypothesize about it, one can form theories on available evidence, but there's no actual conclusive "proof" either way.
I also believe you'll agree that scholastic analysis on a work of fiction is slightly more subjective by nature and somewhat less "precise" than actual history. The same terms can be used in a different context and a narrow, formulaic use of a term like "original", as you seem to suggest, is not always conducive to objectivity.

Oh, I don't know; I think we've compiled some pretty good supporting evidence.

From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years?
That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary.
I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.

Yes. Which is part of my point. I *shouldn't* be able to gather that much material from just those few appearances. The fact that I can is itself an indicator of how freely Johns and Meltzer have adapted the material.

No, you know what? At the start of 'The Lightning Saga' I was convinced that they *were* the original Legion, down to the last detail. I was trying to figure out just *where* in the Levitz run the story could be fit into continuity. Just a couple of issues later, I had changed my mind completely. You don't have to believe me about all this, of course.

When I say 'we' I mean anybody who was paying attention to details like that, regardless of what conclusions they came to about them. If you read the Lightning Saga and paid attention, you're probably part of 'we'.

How many are there? I can think of only three, all explainable.

Wildfire/Red Tornado, Night Girl a member, Karate Kid being alive.

Here's what I can think of. I'll separate them into categories to make it easier for us to consider them.

1. Stuff That Happened Offstage Between Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Lightning Saga (this category is included mostly for completeness)
- Karate Kid's retroactive survival
- Night Girl's possible Legion membership
- was Star Boy readmitted to the Legion after killing Kenz Nuhor?
- apparently Sun Boy's missing?
- it seems that Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy rejoined the Legion at some point

2. Previously Unrevealed Details About Legionnaires (also included mostly for completeness)
- Projectra has two hearts
- Dream Girl's power is related to 'the Dreaming' from Sandman
- Star Boy's mental illness
- Dawnstar possibly attracted to women (this should maybe go in Category 1)

3. Details Which Contradict Previously Known Information
- flight rings made of nth metal
- Wildfire being somehow the same person as Red Tornado

4. Smallville Continuity Problems
- to the best of our knowledge, Superboy not as active a hero now as he was in original continuity
- current Luthor never Superboy's arch-enemy and therefore not a Legion adversary

5. Legal Stuff We Just Have To Cut DC a Break On
- he used to be called 'Superboy'

6. Legion Membership Problems
- no Supergirl
- if Polar Boy and the Sensor Girl costume have statues in the Fortress of Solitude, why not Tellus, Quislet and Magnetic Kid?
- no Tyroc statue in Fortress
- no Chemical King statue in Fortress; Chemical King not represented in group shot in Action #858

7. Big Picture
- distance of decades between Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 and now provides natural discontinuity between eras
- original Legion continuity led seamlessly into post-Crisis era, and somewhat less seamlessly into 5YL and Glorithverse era; at least some of that material is obviously 'original Legion' storytelling, but is not included in this new continuity

8. Thematic Stuff
- Johns, through the premise of the Action arc and Red Tornado's description in JSA #5, is casting this Legion specifically as the champions of unity and diversity against xenophobia. While the original Legion was certainly in favour of unity and diversity, and against xenophobia, this was not, historically, a prominent part of what they were all about. It's a better description of the reboot Legion.
- the transition to the post-Crisis and Glorithverse eras were full of familiar details to try to preserve, as much as possible, the history of the Legion, and to indicate that DC intended them to be continuations of the original Legion. The Lightning Saga was full of unfamiliar details, which did not suggest such an intention; rather, they left the impression that this was something new.

Did I forget anything?

As I said, a lot of those things all by themselves would not lead me to conclude that this isn't the original Legion. But if you pile them all together, and consider how little screen time this Legion has had to accumulate all these points... I have to conclude that they're something new.

Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years.
A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:

1. Explainable "off panel"
2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books.
3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.

I could give you examples of all of the above but I'm sure you already know them.

Even major retcons like Karate Kid alive could have occurred at some future point from where this Legion "diverges" from the original continuity. It's not like character "resurrection" is rare in comics, is it?

If there is one major "bump" that suggests this Legion may not be the "classic" one is Supergirl's role in both Legions. That won't be explained easily.
The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse.
This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.

You'll notice that I didn't use DC's claims that it IS the original Legion but only evidence from the comics themselves.
Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it. If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.

I think our posts crossed so I'll let my post above be the answer to this. Basically, some of my evidence is the kind you describe and some is not.
I think Glorithverse is a good comparison. However:
1. the Glorithverse stories got there first, and
2. the Glorithverse stories were published pretty much immediately consecutively the post-Crisis stories (not quite the same point)

If we were arguing the validity of Johns's Legion, that would be one thing. But we're not. I gladly concede its validity. I only dispute its status as 'original Legion' or not 'original Legion', a much more narrow and strictly technical point.

It's not unimportant; it just doesn't answer the points I raise.

No. These are not matters of opinion; these are matters of facts as established in published material. The definition of the word 'original' is not subject to a popularity contest.

Now this I agree with. If you like Johns's Legion, why should you care whether I say it's original or not? I think it's a point worth making, but those are my priorities, not yours.

Seriously, it's a very sensible approach: anyone who says to me, "Matthew, I don't care if it's the original Legion or not; I like it and I want to enjoy the comics," has my full and unqualified support. After all, what's it matter if it's the original Legion or not? Story's the same either way. It's only people like me who are really into mapping the details out who care about this.

Oh, and also the people who think that if it's not the original Legion then it isn't any good. They care too. But probably nobody like that really exists.

A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above. Which is fine for them. But, I fear they will all be extremely disappointed once this Action-Arc is over and we get even more evidence of just how different it is to the "original."

The rest of us, knowing that it's different going in, will be able to handle it better.

Please add to #6 -
- no Jimmy Olsen as a member
- doubtful that Pete Ross (since no "Superboy") or Lana Lang as members

I'll also add that Karate Kid's original time-trip now seems to not exist as well. Any trip the Legion took to the 20th century especially those involving/helping Superman (which are numerous) seems gone. The original JLA/JSA/LSH team-up, Brave and the Bold and DCCP appearances are wiped out as well.