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Me too! I was born when Ferro Lad died, What about you?

One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:

As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.

There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.

That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?

Just one of the many ways things might turn out.

I'm with Kent on this one.

But at the end of the day, the first issue of John's Action story was very enjoyable to read IMO. If he keeps up the level of quality that I've come to expect from him, that's all that matters.

I'm not quite sure what else could be done to make someone who doesn't see this as the 'original Legion' actually change their minds. Which is fine. As each year has gone by for every character in comics, things have been tweaked in such a way that the continuity will never be 100% strait anymore. Batman from the 1950's equally Batman today is a long jump for many fans to make too. That's probably more of a good quality for comic books in general than a bad one.

Assuming that people who feel this is the "original" Legion want stories exactly like the ones published in the 60s, 70s or 80s, both in art style and storytelling, then I'm sure they'll be disappointed because it's 2007 now.

I haven't seen anyone who clamors for the old Legion and likes the one in Action say anything that would corroborate such an assumption.

An example would be the change in costumes. Some people like them, others don't. Some people would have liked to see the Legionnaires wear those "classic" costumes a little longer, others don't care about what costume a character they love wears. If people who consider it the "original" Legion wanted an exact copy "preserved in formaldehyde" of every last detail of the old Legion, they'd be screeching in rage about the change in costumes. But they don't.

There are those who don't care whether it's the original Legion or not as long as it's a good Legion but they are in another "category", so to speak, so the assumption they'll be disappointed doesn't apply to them.

It's people who *don't* think it's the original Legion anyway and hate it, who are very vocal about things like the costumes or old characterization or every little detail that doesn't conform to their image of what the original Legion was like. They are the ones who want the "preserved in formaldehyde" Legion, not the ones who accept it as either the original - and like it - or as a very close and very good version of the original. And like it.

I'd like to make clear that I don't feel you are one of those who would only accept this Legion as the original only in the "formaldehyde version", Matthew. You are doing a very good and precise, scholarly analysis of continuity matters etc which I believe is very valuable (and fun to read}, regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with you.

That's not quite what I was saying. I don't think there are too many old-school Legion fans out there who can't handle any kind of change at all. Some, maybe, but not many.

What I was thinking about more was that there was a possibility that the specific new direction Johns takes this Legion in would be one that feels like a violation of what the Legion's all about to such fans. As in, they can handle change okay, but don't like this change.

For instance: Johns has a reputation for injecting his comic books with unnecessary gore. What if, and I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, there's a scene featuring the bloody decapitation of Bouncing Boy? (That's probably a bad example; it'd probably put everybody off the book.)

One thing I haven't said is what I personally think of the changes Johns and Meltzer have made.
I like Night Girl as a Legionnaire; took them long enough. I like Wildfire's new look in Action but don't like Dawny's; to me, Dawnstar should be in her original costume forever. Things like the flight rings and the nature of Dreamy's powers don't bother me a bit, and I like the Legion's role as the champions of diversity, but I think the Wildfire = Red Tornado thing is a vortex of stupid that will consume everything in its path.

I think the reason this debate has taken on such a life of its own is that the idea of bringing back the Preboot Legion (especially the Levitz Legion) is one that really resonates with those of us who were fans when those stories were published.

I can fully see the desire to have as authentic a restoration as possible, but I do not see how it is possible (at a minimum, given Superboy legalities); at some point, you have to contradict something that came before (even if it's only End of an Era or Legion on the Run). So if you start conceding some ground (and if you don't, I cannot see how one could ever be satisfied with any restoration) for legal issues, for adaptation into current continuity, or for what one's departure point(s) from the original timelie is/are, then a few changes for creative purposes do not seem so bad.

I also concede that what we have seen so far does not currently seem 100 percent self-consistent (let alone with Preboot), but my own expectations about any super-hero comic allow room for a certain amount of fluctuation. Even each era of Preboot had its hare of minor (and major) adjustments.

While I have previously been critical of the use of two standards, one for Johns and one for Threeboot, I can accept that any attempt to recreate Preboot could automatically raise expectations higher than the bar Threeboot has set (but accepting that in turn would discredit any greater or equivalent claim to "original" status that Threeboot supporters sometimes allege).

How original does "original" have to be? Is how a story hyped more important than the story itself?

All I have asked is that the Johns version be accepted (or not) on its own merits (potentially beyond Johns' own story, if other creators also use them), and we let the story play out before being dismissive, before jumping to conclusions about its longterm viability (or the desirability thereof).

I have long been an advocate that the supporters of each and every era/aspect of LSH that has attracted fans be accorded due respect. I do not see the repeated dismissal of people who are appreciating the Johns Legion as only being "nostalgic" for something "dishonest" as any sort of reciprocal acceptance.

I can only speak for myself on this one.

I have never said, about Johns's Legion, "I want the original Legion back and this is an inferior substitute." My stance is more, "Here is another version of the Legion. They're calling it the original Legion, but I don't think that scans. Still, let's see what they've got."

(Which is not to say I don't want the original Legion back. I do want them back. Also the reboot Legion! Also, if they're being considered separate, the 5YL Legion.

And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")

It doesn't have to be original at all. Who's forcing it to be original? (Here's where language trips us up. Of course we want it to be 'original', as in, an original story. But we don't necessarily need it to be 'original', as in, the original Legion.)

DC can write the Legion however they want, write the stories however they want. If they're good I'll like them. If they want to use the actual original Legion, that's great. If they want to use a different Legion, that's great too. More power to them.

Just don't do one and tell me you're doing the other. I get ticked off if I think someone is trying to snow me.

"And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")"

Well, then you had better be prepared to do about 50 years worth of research to make sure you get EVERY LAST THING right to make sure you don't contradict anything.

Nah. The important thing is to make sure you start at the same point the previous run ended, for that continuity. Then you just do new stuff and refer to the past as little as you can get away with. That's been one problem with the Legion in recent years: too much emphasis on the past and not enough on just telling good new stories.

That's a great point. The changes to Superboy from the original to pocket-universe Superboy didn't make most of us think the post-crisis Legion was different even though it was.

Heh, I agree with you. It's the same with Crisis. They think they covered all their bases and then..."oh, yeah...that".

Since Supes had a foggy memory maybe the Legion sent Cham back on a Espionage mission to the 20th century to erase various memories.

I don't see it as the second coming. BUT so far it appears it's a Legion I will be more interested in and hopefully enjoy than any other legion work in the last 15 years?

It's a Legion I like. It has elements of a Legion I want. Is it the "original"? No. Do I apologize for liking it? No. And just because I have a different opinion I won't apologize. Is it nostalgic? I guess but I see more in it than just nostalgia.

I mean the current Legion is nostalgic of the Adventure Legion? Or ZH Legion?


btw, for those that are excited about this Legion...the next issue comes out this week right?!

This entire debate reminds me of Neil Gaiman's wonderful passage in the Sandman issue "The Hunt" when the granddaughter takes her grandfather to task for continuity errors in the bedtime story he is telling her. And then he comes back with this: "Don't trust the storyteller. Only trust the story." (Of course, the next time she interrupts him, he says "Listen, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. I love you but if you interrupt me again so help me I'll tear out your throat with my teeth." And she meekly says "Sorry, Grandpa." I love Sandman.)

The point is that continuity for DC comics exists to be broken. If it serves the story, great. If not, then feggedaboudit. And we know this. We live in a DCU where the heroes have forgotten completely about the Zero Hour Legion assisting in The Final Night. Even though The Final Night totally happened, because Parallax gave his life to save Earth and then he became the Spectre and then in "Emerald Rebirth" or what-the-frak-ever the title was became Hal Jordan, Green Lantern Stud again. And this all happened, because didn't Geoff Johns write it? It must be true!!! I mean, isn't that... what happened??

Where the Flash family have completely forgotten that an XS ever existed. Where Superman's Time and Time Again storyline obviously never happened.

I know, I know... Infinite Crisis restarted everything again and all the continuities were fixed, Superboy-Prime's behind bars, the 52 worlds are all out there and if there's a continuity you can dream about, just wish for it and it's on one of those 52 worlds. Blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah.

Let's look back through time. This is a DCU where, upon (the first) Crisis ending, Wonder Woman was reset. She was never an original member of the JLA. She came to man's world for the very first time post-Crisis. Except for the fact that Donna Troy was a member of the Teen Titans for years before these events, and made constant mention to WW and Hippolyta and Hera and whatnot.

Kara Zor-El had a funeral in the middle of Crisis on Infinite Earths and EVERYBODY was there and EVERYBODY remembered it and EVERYBODY cried and was very sad. Except nobody remembered it when Matrix came to Earth and took on Supergirl's form and then merged with Linda Danvers and then became an earth-bound angel and then Kara Zor-El came to earth for the FIRST time, except for the fact that she didn't, because there was a funeral, and at the end of Crisis, Superman mourned Kara, and it totally happened, because Harbinger recorded it all (complete with pretty George Perez pics) and Harbinger showed up as a major player in Millenium a couple years later. And if you can't trust Harbinger, who can you trust?

Of course, Zero Hour fixed all of this. Except it didn't, because Superboy-Prime, Superman-1, Alexander Luthor, and Lois Lane-1 were all hanging out in the wings. It's like a continuity poker game. "I'll see your Zero Hour and raise it one Earth-1 Power Girl! Dang it, I can't beat that hand." Zero Hour folds. Power Girl singlehandedly defeats the Zero Hour Legion for all time without even raising a finger. (It's true, if you think about it.)

And now the 52 universes come along with the promise to make it all somehow better. "If you can dream it, it's there!" Ooh, sparkly! Except for the fact that it's all smoke and mirrors, people. The DC universe exists in a completely delirious state of unreality.

There are all these trappings of Crisis(es) and Superboy-Primes and Khufus and Earth-1s and Power Girls and Psycho-Pirates and Infinite Earths that give fans stuff to chew on, but it is all complete and total illusion, no more substantial than one of Projectra's illusions. Oh, um, sorry... Lighting Saga Sensor Girl's illusions.

In future posts, I will endeavor to explain why this state of affairs is actually okay, though, and why this entire debate is, while diverting, ultimately no more substantial than the, um, "continuity" which is at its core. And finally, why the LSH is a special problem for the DCU as it exists and what sort of solution set may be applicable.

My apologies for the run-on sentences. I was trying to comment on the laughable state of DC's "continuity" with some laughable grammar.

Kid Prime's DC Point #1. Nothing really exists in the DCU.

I think on an intellectual level, you can always find some elements that will spoil your fun. For me, the return of the "kind of classic" Legion is an emotional matter: To see these characters interact in the current DCU after 14 years of "other" Legions I could not get that fond of is a true delight.

To see the new cover of Action #862 with the Subs gives me a huge thrill. And every inconsistency to the classic Legion - even the strange missing of Chemical King himself - I can blame on Crisis, Zero Hour or whatever continuity bashing there was.

So I love it on an emotional level and just explain the problems away. Not a scientific approach, but I can totally enjoy the story that way.

By the way: The way of storytelling changes over the ages. Hardly anybody would like to read Adventure type stories nowadays, Bates or especially Conway would be attacked for their simplistic writing. So what we should expect is a Levitz-style writing with a modern twist (and changes to the original continuity will be added if only to add some spice to it all - like it or not...)

I think Johns can do it - he did great on the JSA already...

To be completely honest, my cynicism regarding the Johns Legion probably has as much to do with jadedness over the whole post-IC/post-52/post-whatever DCU as anything else.

Part of the appeal of the Legion for me in most versions has always been its relative isolation from the rest of the DCU. So even though I could've cared less about the rest of the post-Zero Hour DCU, I could still read and enjoy the post-Zero Hour Legion because their storyline was pretty much independent (and it's probably no coincidence that I stopped reading them during the whole "Team 20" arc).

What Johns has given us is a Legion that's very much integrated into the whole "Crisis on Every Other Tuesday" state of affairs in the mainstream DCU. Honestly, I have very little interest in the Legion as explorers of the current multiverse, where Star Boy hung out in the Kingdom Come universe for awhile before coming to New Earth and joining the New Earth JSA*, so on and so forth. For people who like the more "integrated universe" approach to comics generally, this is probably going to bother them much less.

Generally, I don't have nearly as much faith in Johns as many of you seem to. He and Waid seem to come from very much the same school of writing (and one that I don't particularly care for), which is why it seems a bit strange that so many people seem to want to pit them against one another. Honestly, I was pretty surprised that so many people who have been critical of Waid's run on the Legion seemed to embrace the Lightning Saga storyline, when it seemed to suffer from many of the same flaws that have made the threeboot seem so lackluster for so long.

*Nota bene: I could care less about the JSA as a training camp for New Earth legacy heroes or whatever as well. The JSA belongs on Earth-2 and closely tied to WW2, dammit!

Word. My first true WTF moment in Legion fandom was when Laurel Kent turned out to be a Manhunter robot that had someone glitched out and triggered 1000 years too late.

So. Freaking. LAME!

99% of my enthusiasm came from the visuals. These characters *looked* right. And in some cases, such as Wildfire and Dream Girl, were acting like the Legion I remembered as well.

There were differences, such as Val being alive, and mysteries, such as the rift between Dawnstar and Wildfire (which even Wildfire seemed to question), but they just piqued my interest in seeing more of this Legion. After all, I never expected the writers to pick up after Baxter issue 39 or whatever and just start over. I'm quite comfortable with things having happened since I last saw them, things which will be explained over time (such as Val's assertion that his friends 'saved him' somehow, an event we haven't seen *yet,* but has been established as having happened sometime between our last visit and this latest appearance).

Will things be perfect? No. Comet the Super-Horse may well have been retconned out of Legion continuity. Universo may be Imra's cousin. Chemical King may have not joined the team, *yet.*

I loved the WW2-set JSA stories (and the Invaders ones from that other company), but that era is over, and I'm fine with the name continuing on with legacy heroes. If anything, it's a sign of the ultimate victory of the original JSA, that their descendents are around to take up the fight.

Something else else from a couple of pages ago that I really should have responded to at the time:

You're right. That was a great moment*.

For Superman.

* As was, "They were my friends." (Also Superman.)

I ended the last post with "Kid Prime's DC point #1: Nothing exists in the DCU." I now realize that I was in error. There are two things that will always exist in the DCU as long as there is a DCU. (Possibly three.)

Jor-El sends his only son to Earth to escape a dying planet Krypton.

Bruce Wayne witnesses the brutal murder of his parents at age 8 in a dark alley.

(There is the possibility that Wonder Woman leaving Paradise Island could be considered a third ineffable item in the DCU makeup, but we'll leave that alone, as it really has no bearing on this conversation.)

I posit that the "realness" of anything else in the DCU is in direct relation to its amount of distance from either of these two events.

There will always be a Joker. There will always be a Lex Luthor. Even as they change over the years (Joker goes from being the Clown Prince of Crime to a truly murderous and insane criminal, Lex Luthor goes from being an evil scientist to being a corporate magnate) their essence and their reality, as opposed to the relative insubstantiability of, say, Sovereign Seven or Amethyst, remains intact throughout the years. I do admit that the relative weakness of Superman's rogues gallery as compared to Batman's villains somewhat weakens my position, but the very fact that Toyman is still around after 50 years does say something.

Anyway, now to my point. Superman (or Superboy) gives the Legion of Super Heroes stronger DC Universe reality. He does not give them meaning or necessarily even give them worth as far as good storytelling or emotional impact, but as far as their viability within the DCU over the years, it is their close orbit around one of the DCU's twin points of true reality which gives them life.

And why not? One of the most compelling things about the Legion is the fact that it was Superman's time with them in his younger days which truly helped to forge himself into the hero he would become. It is a truly powerful mythology, and it gives the Legion a huge part of their grandeur. To think that today, Superman is unparalleled as a hero, but 1000 years in the future, he was only a single member of a club whose members each in their own way were every bit as heroic as he... that's a POWERFUL legend there, and that is a large part of what the Legion is about.

However one feels about Johns's ability as a writer (or hack,) re-linking Superman with the Legion of Super Heroes in the way that he has done ("We were Legion.") is quite possibly the strongest thing that has been done with the group and the strongest Legion-related moment yet in this new century. So Matthew, I have to respectfully disagree with you. That moment with Superman was big for him, but it was absolutely huge for the Legion as well. Not because the Legion needs Superman for great storytelling or to be a great team, but insofar as their level of "DCU reality," the closer they are to Superman, the more real they are.

Now this creates a paradox in that I do believe the LSH is and should be completely or mostly separate from the DCU other than their relationship to its number one icon, but that's a good topic for another time.

Kid Prime's DC point #2: The closer to Batman or Superman you are, the more real you are. This means Lightning Saga -> renewing ties between Superman and LSH = good thing. This also means (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view) that the Lightning Saga is more "real" than the Threeboot Legion simply by virtue of its orbit around Supes.

That's some really good thinking right there. Nicely done.

I still say, though: it may have been a great moment for the Legion, but it couldn't have been a great Legion moment, because the Legion wasn't there.

After all, just because it's DC's standard that reality emanates from Superman and Batman, that doesn't mean that Legion fans have to be primarily fans of Superman. If you get what I'm trying to say.

KP, thank you for bringing a fresh level of clarity to the table.

Matthew, I am not going to argue at length the semantics over the "We were Legion" moment, but I obviously agree with KP. And the Legion was there in flashback, as I recall -- and it was a comic book - no one was there, and there was no "there" there. Lines on a page to which we interpret meaning.

EDE, I'm not familiar enough with Johns' other works to rank him in the overall scheme of things, but in certain ways your Waid comparison seems fair.

I gave Waid a chance, based upon previous projects I liked (KC, 90s Flash, off the top of my head), and based upon Barry's assurances here on LW. I truly hoped that a well thought out, well written, well drawn Threeboot would be a success and reinvigorate LSH and fandom. Of the above, only Kitson's art was consistently good. I am aprpreciating the fill-in run, and I hope to enjoy the Shooter run.

I did not knock Waid for the sake of knocking; I expressed disappointment based on his track record as it became apparent the post-#3 slump was becoming the norm.

I do not believe Johns is the perfect writer, nor have I been 100 percent thrilled with everything he's done that I've read. I am simply not rushing to judgement, just as I did not with Waid. The less than satisfying ending to L-Saga was a strike against him, but he has shown more than enough likeable aspects to continue to give the benefit of the doubt.

Heaven forefend! These days, more like Monstress with PMS.

Forgive me if this has been posted before, I found 5 preview images of Action #859 courtesy of vdox2 over at CBR,(apparently he found them over at a Italian messageboard.)

http://comicus.forumfree.org/index.php?&showtopic=44351&st=0&#entry1427408

Thanks Mon-El!

Spider Girl is from Earth. I'll have to dig out my Who's Who.

She was from Taltar originally, if that's what you were going to look up.

Thanks Mon-El. Those pages are very exciting.

Spider-Girl received her powers from Taltar but is she from there? I guess not?