Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives #2

Very cool Pofobo to see that we picked up on the same notion of Jo's inclusion. You're point about Thom is very well taken!

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I see Archive #2 as having two major goals: the establishment of the Subs as a critical part of early Legion lore, and secondly, to finalize and refine the Legion roster. This story, as you've laid out above, sets into motion the two final stories in this archive which are the last steps to be taken. The second to last follows this story up by establishing Ultra Boy as having the classic powerset (plus origin, love interest, personality, etc.) that we know him having. And the last story, in addition to changing Lightning Lass to Light Lass, also establishes once and for all, Star Boy's role in the Legion, including his new powers (as well as his romantic interest, etc.). I'm in total agreement with you as this story being a big turning point in those steps.

Also, Star Boy was not among the Legionnaires in Superman Annual #4, I believe.

I haven't re-read the issue yet, but I will note that Ultra Boy already had at least heat vision in addition to the ability to see through things, per the Kranyak story. I suspect if he hadn't been given the upgrade in this issue, he would have instead been given a whole bunch of different vision powers, ala Visi-Lad.

Given that they are already having to figure out ways to write out Superboy, Mon-El, and Supergirl when their powers would spoil the story, I can kind of see them not wanting to put in another character with their powerset, without giving them some sort of limitation.

I think the next mention is in the Baxter "Legionnaires-lost-post-LSV-War" story. About v3 #7 or #8?

Totally missed the importance of having Ultra Boy included with Superboy and Mon-el. I'm so used to his present-day power status. It shows that some thought went into these stories, despite their plot holes and silliness.

The threat of history's greatest villains is somewhat undone by current knowledge or adult perspective. Nero? My first thought was that Caligula would have been a better choice, but they didn't want kids knowing too much about Caligula's perversions. Dillinger? How bad was he? Hitler, okay. I was surprised that old commie Stalin didn't make the list, but I guess he had been on our side in WWII. It would be interesting to speculate who might be chosen today. Pol Pot comes to mind.

Nice how Superboy, ever the gentleman, pleads for Saturn Girl to be left alone, since she's just a girl.

Legionnaires in a time bubble encountering allied fighter planes - maybe the Legionnaires were the Foo Fighters that pilots saw.

Another lost world - this one travelling through the solar system like Nibiru. Pofobo's right - the statues could look like Lex Luthor. Combine that with dangerous weapons and there's the untold story of Luthor's attack planetoid that he built with Lesla Lar.

There could also have been something done with remnants of the villain's personalities remaining in Jo, Lar and Kal.

Alaktor had an interesting idea, but he's a pretty wimpy, naive villain.

Adv. 314

"The Super-Villains of All Ages" reads as if it were dreamed up by one of the Legion's young readers: Pit the Legion against three real-life villains! And who might kids regard as the worst bad guys in history? Hitler, Nero, and Dillinger, of course!

(Well, maybe kids wouldn't pick those three, but you've got to teach them something about history, right? I suspect Dillinger was included because a gangster is a lot cooler than a Nazi or a Roman emperor.)

The idea actually has a lot of merit: who wouldn't want to see our fictional heroes take on real-life villains? The possibilities are endless: Jesse James, Benedict Arnold, Pontius Pilate, Jack the Ripper . . . I almost wish more such figures had been recruited by Alaktor--then we could have had a real battle royal on our hands.

(An updated version of this story would no doubt include Osama bin Laden and who else? Timothy McVeigh? Saddam Hussein?)

Part 1 does a decent job of setting up this story, but then, as Cobie notes, the story falls apart in the second half. Part 1 introduces us to the Legion's defenses and then shows Alaktor systematically evading those defenses and stealing a time bubble. He's shown to be clever and dangerous. However, time travel seems to have made him and everyone else in this story stupid. It's not clear how Hitler, Nero, and Dillinger are supposed to help Alaktor become master of the universe. I guess he could have relied on the expertise of the former two in statecraft and conquering enemies, while Dillinger could, what?, rob banks to fund Alaktor's operation?

In the end, it doesn't matter what Alaktor's plan was since he gets double crossed. Lesson, boys and girls: Don't trust bad guys! (Why would someone as smart as Alaktor not figure this out?)

Logic has to be bent into pretzels, squeezed, and ultimately ripped apart to make this story work. One issue ago, Superboy and Mon-El were mighty enough to prevent two planets from colliding; here they and Ultra Boy are all needed to protect Lost World from poachers.

For me, the worst part is that everyone does exactly what the plot requires them to do, so there are no surprises. Even the manner in which the three villains are defeated relies on them behaving in predictable ways: Each wants to be sole dictator, so they immediately double cross each other. (One of the most blatant lies that comics of this nature tried to teach kids is that "bad guys" are always stupid and predictable--it's almost as if the Comics Code sought to brainwash kids into seeing the world in such binary terms.)

After reading this story, I felt nothing. There was no one I rooted for, no one I cared for. Even though the stakes are high, this is a perfunctory story that failed to create an emotional connection for this reader.

But there are a few bright spots: Saturn Girl ends up saving the day (in spite of Superboy asking Alaktor to spare her because she's a girl), and it's good to see more of the Legionnaires involved. We've got Superboy, Mon-El, Ultra Boy, Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Sun Boy, Chameleon Boy, Invisible Kid, and Shrinking Violet each taking an active role. And Bouncing Boy pops in and out of the story, though he doesn't do anything. Maybe he keeps sneaking off to bounce with those aliens he met last ish.

Whenever I think of the high points or the low points of the Legion's Adventure run, this story rarely comes to mind in either category. It's just sort of there.

Ultra Boy's weakness to radiation is referenced several times in Adventure Comics, including #358, 360, and 363.

Adventure #314

--Sheesh! Can you imagine how annoying those security defenses have to be on a day to day basis? How many times do you think Bouncing Boy had to step on the wrong tile before they decided to simplify things?

--Poor Ron Karr! I wonder what Chuck is thinking in that panel where he's being rejected?

--Alaktor's shirt looks awful heavy alongside his bare legs!

--Lost World is such a typically Hamiltonian concept!

--Okay, I'm not sure the point of guarding the Lost World just until it gets out of our solar system. What if it wanders over into Zyzan space or something next?

--There's definitely a bizarre disconnect between the end of Part I, where the Legionnaires find out the identity of the three villains, and the beginning of Part II, where they don't seem to know them. It really seems like they just changed it to have a scene matching the cover.

--Plus, how exactly does Ultra Boy's vision not see through the masks? Isn't the whole point of him that he can, unlike Superboy, see through lead?

--Note that though Superboy "recognizes these men from history", Dillinger and Hitler are both his contemporaries from the 1930s!

--So, basically, Alaktor's whole scheme is just a fancy way to overcome the guards on Lost World? Couldn't he have just hired some of his own thugs in the 30th century and stuck their minds in the guards? Or taken over Superboy or Mon-El's minds himself?

--I always get a kick of "I'll rename Earth 'New Germany'!" line!

--One of the best bits of this issue is the use of Invisible Kid, Chameleon Boy, and Shrinking Violet to sneak onto Lost World. Even though it is unsuccessful, it's pretty much the first use of something like the Legion Espionage Squad that I've noticed.

--Here we get the first mention that Mon-El needs to renew his lead serum every 48 hrs.

--Saturn Girl saves the day!

--I wonder if that's the same cosmic cloud the bouncing animals world was hidden in last issue?

This story definitely has some massive plot problems, but it's also a pretty memorable idea for a story. Pitting the Legionnaires against the greatest criminals of history will kind of be revisited with the Unkillables (who are the lookalike descendants of history's greatest assassins). Definitely not one of the high points of this Archive, but it has its moments.

Given that Weisinger apparently got plot ideas by polling kids in his neighborhood, that may very well be where this story came from!

On Ultra Boy's powers, he mentions his super-speed at one point in the story, so it seems like he's already been upgraded as of this story.

Re: Luthor statues, I suppose one could postulate that this was actually Lexor, the world on which Luthor is celebrated as a hero!

"Omigosh! That kid looks like was run over by a Jovian space cruiser. I wonder it that hurts."



The Legionnaires don't know about the Zyzans. Pity none of the Subs were on hand to raise that concern.

But, yeah, there's an enormous lack of concern about Lost World falling into the wrong hands once it leaves our solar system.



I suspect the cover, like many of the Silver Age, was designed first and the story built around it.

(Aside: I'm currently proofing my book and surprised and dismayed by how many bonehead errors still need correcting--this after having re-written and edited the thing several times. This process has given me a new respect for professional comic book writers who have to come up with something new and engaging every month! This does not excuse all the problems in stories such as this, but writing your own book does provides new insight on how problems in logic, characterization and power consistency happen.)

One alternate thing that might have been done with this story would've been to keep Superboy, Ultra Boy, and Mon-El conscious while in the bodies of the three villains. It might've been interesting, if incredibly disconcerting, to see Superboy-as-Hitler save the day!

I think that, however much the CCA guys liked Weisinger, the sight of Hitler saving the day *may just* have been a bit of a red flag!

It wouldn't surprise me if that's actually why the heroes-in-villains are kept unconscious throughout the story.

However, I still think you could have an awesome cover of the Legion coming to Hitler's aid against Superboy! Plus there's a groovy moral about how even in Hitler's body, Kal-El is still able to win against Supernazi!

I'm starting to suspect his may be a sequel to the story from one of the unpublished issues of More Fun Comics!

Yes! I suspect you're right and it occurred a little later in the Silver Age--complete with a Neal Adams "realistic" cover!

Exactly! I proofed and re-proofed both my books countless times and maintaining some semblance of logic and consistency were my greatest difficulties!

The Legionnaires' Super-Contest

More reptilian alien looters. Looters and invaders. Are there any good reptilians in the Legionverse? Perhaps the good ones were all wiped out, leaving only remnants of lost civilizations.

The Legionnaires throw their weight around and the Subs comply, submitting to a contest to give one of them a chance to win Legion membership.

On the cover page, all the Subs except Lydda are setting themselves up for failure. She's intent on gaining access to Cosmic Boy more than winning a place with the Legion.

The Subs are given difficult challenges and do a great job of solving the problems. By the use of their power and their positive attitude, they should have qualified for Legion membership. Yet it's Stone Boy, who tries but gives up easily, who wins based on his self-sacrificing approach. They also serve who only stand and wait?

Throughout, the Subs are a class act, especially with the final decision of Stone Boy to stay with his team. When Stone Boy rejected the Legion (so gallantly!), it's odd that they didn't offer a place to one of the other Subs (or have a face-off between Lydda and Brek), although that would have made the story too long.

Sun Woman, another interesting villain, at least visually. She and Sun Boy should have gotten together later for some illicit fun times. Or, untold story, she idolized Dirk like Lydda worshipped Rokk, but Dirk rejected her, so she went all mechanical tyrant, using sun power for evil.

I can't help but wish Teeds were here for all this great Lydda/Beehive action. (The tribesmen shown during Fire Lad's test had some pretty voluminous hair as well.)

Adventure #315

The third Subs story is the first one I ever read, and it made me a fan of Stone Boy for life (not knowing he’d been shown to be so useless in prior stories!). It’s also the continued natural progression of the Subs story, as the Legion naturally learns of their existence, gives them the validation they’ve wanted and then even offers them membership. Stone Boy’s declination shows that they have now found something they have more in common than their shared belief in the Legion: their shared belief in themselves. This is essentially the penultimate chapter in the saga of the Subs when looked at from a literary view IMO, with the final chapter being their subsequent appearance, in which they at long last save the day completely, including the Legion.

The opening splash depicts Night Girl in a possible contender for “prettiest depiction of a character” in the entire Silver Age!

The regular cast of “Leads” returns in Dirk, Imra, Brainy, Chuck, Superboy, now Garth, with quasi-leads Cos & Cham returning.

Yet another reference to Thar! Another piece of the puzzle in the now long-running puzzle of Polar Boy, Olen & Jan Jor, and the history of Thar(r) in the Legion.

“Ring World” looks delicious, especially with a nice cup of coffee.

The law enforcement convention has its own version of a state trooper in the second row—the dude wearing his sunglasses inside, of course.

The recap of the Subs are exact panel duplicates of their first appearance. Did they cut and paste? I didn’t think that was common practice then but I guess I was wrong? Imra forgot poor Stone Boy!

Brainy shows up to explain the mentor selection process. He’s as generally affable as all the other Legionnaires but considering we know his subsequent 45 year history, its hard not to read into his words a bit of the cold, calculating Brainy we know and love.

I’ve gotta say: I’d sure be pretty frustrated at the thought of someone getting Superboy and me getting Bouncing Boy as my mentor! I need to reread Adv #301.

The Legionnaires in general are really supportive. Sun Boy takes on an older brother type role with Polar Boy that I like.

Sun Woman is yet another classic “Forte Walk-on Female” that is incredibly glamorous, yet we never see her again! Dean Lee had a lot of fun discussing her on LW and providing some additional drawings of her. I like to think this is Beauty Blaze’s mother. (And I also like to think reboot Inferno = Beauty Blaze). BTW, there’s a wee bit of an increase in difficulty level between starting a full on revolution and overthrowing a planetary tyrant and unfreezing two scientists!! Her idea to throw giant coals into the fire to blot out the sun is kind of cool. In South America they often burn tires that way during revolutions. Maybe they got the idea from Lydda?

Okay, I admit I was wrong. I note Chuck is really supportive of Fire Lad throughout his mission; meanwhile Garth basically says “good luck, kid” and splits on Chlorophyll Kid, likely to keep brooding about being dead.

Poor Stone Boy fails…but proves his heroism in a different way!

I love how Superboy and Sun Boy are ribbing each other about who will win the test. That bravado / ball-breaking reminds me of when I played hockey as a teenager.

And so Stone Boy becomes the first of a small group of heroes to actually turn down Legion membership. I think this is a nice little story, and like every Subs story is one of the better ones of the early LSH. I also think it’s one of John Forte’s best efforts yet, with a variety of characters appearing and a vast array of landscapes.

This issue's Superboy story is also notable for two reasons. The first is Colossal Boy makes a guest appearance to save the day for Superboy, continuing that by-now tradition! It's interesting that Gim, whose profile was certainly not that high, gets a chance to do this. Though since any time a "giant" hero would be needed, it would be Gim.

This also marks a change for the Superboy stories in general. Hereafter, the Superboy stories all become reprints, and thus in a sense "true back ups". They're pulled out of order from the entire 1950's, probably determined by whether their page count synced up with the lead story. There would also be some instances, such as next issue, where the LSH story got "full length novel" treatment.

As an extension of that, this is really the last time Superboy has the Adventure cover, though with a few notable exceptions (one I have a theory on, but that's for later.

The reprints were the first wave of Mort feeling a bit overworked but not wanting to give up control on any of his titles.

A rather distinguished group, the League of Legion Rejectors. Who are/will be the others? Do they get together for an annual dinner and drink away their regrets, or celebrate?

An interesting question! Dev Em is the other member of this illustrious group that stands out to me. I don't see Stone Boy and he having a lot to talk about though.

Adv. 315

This issue continues Hamilton's love affair with the Subs, whom I think he was happier writing than the regular Legion. This story is more focused and much better developed than other recent yarns, and it gives us not one but five protagonists to root for.

Yes, it seems somewhat cold and self-serving for the Legionnaires to put the Subs through a contest so only one of their loyal members can join the Big Team, but this is actually a very real world, practical decision. Few employers would want to train five less-than-adequate employees at once, and the Legion isn't in the business of being "fair" to applicants. They want to find the best person for the team, period.

I also think it's believable how the contests are very different and challenge each of the Subs in unique ways. Who's to say that the lives of two scientists are worth less than freeing a world from tyranny? Or that giving a primitive culture fire is less of an achievement than protecting people from a beast? What counts is that each of the Subs displayed ingenuity, resourcefulness, and heroism in achieving their tasks.

And, of course, it's "the least of these"--Stone Boy--who wins the contest and then proves to be the biggest hero of all by turning down Legion membership. I read about this story long before I actually read it, so its ending doesn't have the same emotional impact it might have had. I also think Hamilton could have done a better job of playing up Stone Boy's feelings of worthlessness. Even when Saturn Girl forgets who he is (nice touch), Dag takes it all in stride. But in turning the Legion down, he asserts that friendship is more valuable than success. That's a lesson all kids (and most adults) need to learn.

This is one of the best stories so far: nicely paced, imaginative, good sense of tension building, and a great sense of emotional attachment. No matter who we root for to win the contest, we know that four other characters we care about will lose.

I have to admit I've never been a huge fan of the Subs and, when I finally got to read Adv. 306, 311, and 315, I was disappointed that the heroes I wanted to read about--the Legionnaires--are so marginalized. They become supporting characters in their own series! But the benefit of getting to read these stories again all these years later is that I get to move past my preconceived notions and see what's truly there: heroes who have to struggle to get what they want, who put service to others ahead of their own wants and needs, and who come out ahead even when they lose.

The Legionnaires look like chumps by comparison.

Adventure #315

This is really a first-rate story, and maybe the best so far of Archive #2!

--Love the universe monitor, despite the silly theme planets on it! Though "Tree World" with all of it cities built on the tops of trees is a pretty cool idea!

--Love the Legionnaires attending a "galactic law enforcement convention". We'll see this a few more times in the Adventure era, as I recall!

--I suspect the "using glass to make poison gas" is a reference to something, but the only thing google is coming up with is phosgene, which is apparently used both in making poison gas and in glass-making.

--The subs capture the looters, though poor Stone Boy doesn't manage to do anything. Er... that's okay, dude! You've been pretty vital in the last two Subs adventures!

--I've got a thread on the human guinea pigs somewhere, who totally should've shown up repeatedly! Possibly in a team-up with Jimmy Olsen!

--I'm not sure why Night Girl needs to be put in the dungeon if she's taught the Vannarans to us the "smoke blots out the sun trick". But Sun Woman is nice and diabolical! I also bet she's one of Dirk's ex-girlfriends!

--Chlorophyll Kid gets pretty much the lamest task, and really the one that's the least challenge for his powers.

--So, I'm really curious how Bouncing Boy would've completed Fire Lad's task if he hadn't! Anyway, Fire Lad helps the asteroid natives to develop fossil fuels! I bet they would've preferred he bring them a weather control device while he was at it!

--And Stone Boy once again proves what an incredible hero he really is! And he's rewarded with Legion membership for his self-sacrifice! It might've been fun if he stayed with the Legion for awhile before deciding to return to the Subs.

Anyway, definitely an awesome story!

So, if the "Sun Woman is an ex girlfriend of Dirk's" theory is taken with the "Sun Woman is really the mother of Beauty Blaze" theory, then perhaps there is a theory for "Beauty Blaze is Dirk's illegitimate daughter!"

Also, I wonder if those asteroid natives went on to worship a fire-based deity centered on Fire Lad?

I also agree with this potentially being the strongest story in Archive #2.

Another random fun thing about this issue:

The lettercol includes a letter from some fellow named "E. Nelson Bridwell"! He helps solve some potential continuity errors from the Return of Lightning Lad story!