Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

That's a fair criticism, Deb. As much as I heap praise on it, I'll freely admit SMT isn't necessarily for everyone. Also, as good as I felt it was from the outset, SMT got even better after Steven Seagle came aboard as co-writer and still excelled and continued building after Wagner left the series altogether. I'll be intrigued to see whether my re-read confirms this assessment. I paused after the third arc because I'm missing part 1 of the fourth (where Seagle comes aboard). Having satisfied myself that I can't find that issue, I anticipate starting with part 2 of "The Vamp" as early as this evening, loathe as I am to have it incomplete.

I'd be curious as to whether you have any more "terrifyingly on-topic" comments to share about SMT, Deb!

Arc 4 of Sandman Mystery Theatre is "The Brute"

Wow. This arc hits on a lot of topics. Boxing (sanctioned and unsanctioned.) Homelessness, child abuse, attempted rape and rape. The rape that is not shown is horrific in nature.

The mystery of the Brutes identity is not really a secret, and is pretty easy to figure out. The reasons for the Brutes situation is.

This arc is hard to read at times, but worth it in the end. You want for one of the characters to rise above his situation and get out...to no avail. Events force him down a road that leads to destruction and death.

Wesley and Dian move their relationship forward again throughout the story amongst everything happening to them. Both again proving to be ahead of their contemporaries in their thoughts and actions.

While Sketchy at points, I found the art to be above the last arc. I still miss Guy Davis on the art chores at this point. I guess Lardy and I look at certain artistic flairs differently...which is the joy of art itself. The one complaint I do have is that Wes and Dian are "different" looking from both the previous arcs. I get that each artist brings different things to the table, but a little more consistency between the artists as to the appearance of the main characters over the first 12 issues would have been appreciated. Ah well...at least Guy Davis is back next arc, as well as the addition of Steven Seagle to help Matt Wagner out.

Also wanted to mention that I have most (if not all) of the first issues of each arc signed by Wagner, Davis (when he was the artist) and Seagle. It was great to be able to meet each of these guys over the years and talk with them about the book.

I think my earlier post referring to R.G. Taylor's art in "The Brute" as inferior may have been a little harsh. I do personally like Watkiss's work better than Taylor's, but the latter did a pretty solid job, all things considered. But we both agree that neither holds a candle to Guy Davis. (I read "The Vamp" last night, and he--and the story--only get better!)

"The Brute" contains one of the most horrifying moments I've ever read in comics. It's a moment that Dev refers to above very obliquely. All we see is the aftermath, but it's just an incredibly painful and searing moment. And reading it as a father now, it is only more painful than it was reading it years before my first child is born. I don't know if there's ever been a moment depicted in comics that has ever affected me more.

The moment in question is very powerful but not done in poor taste. It's the suggestion, the aftermath, the affect on the helpless child victim and the powerlessness and despair that her father feels when he realizes what has happened. The child's attempt to understand what has happened to her is beyond heartbreaking.

It's not a sequence that is easy at all to read, but I think it is a sequence in comics or other mediums that is needed in a way that I can't easily explain. It may be a moment that someone reading the series for the first time might just cause them to put the book down forever. It's just that devastating. But I feel it was an important moment for comics as a medium, even if you never hear it mentioned.

"The Brute" is a story centered around child abuse and the terrible effects of it. It's also about parenting and the tremendous, incalculable responsibility that comes with it. And it's also about choices.

Damn fine arc.

I have not reread this book in a few years, and I remember starting this arc not remembering where it went. As I read the first issue, I was hoping that it wasn't what I thought I remembered.

When they met the homeless guy, my mind hoped that it would be different than I remembered. That the ending was different than hat I remembered.

Looking back, I think that this arc helped cement my pure unadulterated venom that I have for people that abuse children. I had always been very adamant of my opinion of child abusers...but this really cemented it.

I was pretty sure that "The Brute" was where this moment came before I started reading it. Like you, I hoped I was wrong, even as I was reading. Even as we met the young lady and even as we met the eventual offender, who seemed like such an affable character leading up to the moment. Such a powerful punch to the gut and one that stays with you after you put it down.

Pondering comparable moments, I think what happens to Abby Arcane in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run (ironically enough, considering Fickles' current re-read project) at the hands of her vile uncle Anton in Matt Cable's body I the closest thing I can think of. But this is definitely even worse and turns the stomach even more.

Ah...Guy Davis returns. Steven Seagle pops in to help Matt Wagner write. The results...phenomenal. Sure, any artist could be doing his/her thing here, but there's something about Guy's artwork for me on SMT that just clicks.

"The Vamp"

Probably the most straightforward mystery for the reader. I don't think I had any problem figuring out who the Vamp was, even the first time around. The question is...why? Who is helping her kill these Frat boys? The answer is not that wurprising, and can give one a bit of sympathy for the Vamp and why she is doing what she is doing. It's a fine line, but it is there.

A couple other things...Detective Burke returns in force with this arc. I do not remember him showing up in the last two arcs at all...although I may have just not recognized him. Anyway, here's a character thatdoes not like the Sandman doing his vigilante thing, so much so that he seems like he would arrest him after he saves his life during the climax of the story. Glad he is back, as he gives a nice counter balance to the vigilante/police co-operation that seems to go on in a lot of comics. Sure there have been other cops that don't appreciate the vigilante hero, but Burke is a fun character to not like.

Dian continues to prove herself Wes' equal. She investigates the Vamp case while Wes and the police conduct their own investigations. Wes seems to stay one step ahead of the police, but Dian seems to be on his heels even more so than her father and the police.

Also, Dian seems to be getting closer to figuring out what Was does in his "spare" time. At least they hook up in a fashion and cement their moving towards being a couple.

"The Vamp", I think, is the best arc to this point. And that's saying something since I had to start with Part 2 on this re-read! Starting there, I didn't feel lost. The story seemed to fill me in on what I really needed to know to that point. I'm sure part of this was that, on some level, I remembered the broad strokes of the story from my original read, but I still feel it did the job.

As I remembered, everything seems to pop that much more with the arrival of Seagle as co-writer. I'm reluctant to give him too much of the credit, but regardless, the clarity, the purpose and the story beats just seem to flow together even better wit this arc.

Doesn't hurt at all that Guy Davis is finally back and better than ever! And with his return, the coloring just seems to also go up a notch and make Guy's art stand out all the better. The color is still appropriately subdued for the story but is slightly brighter...just enough to draw you in a little bit more to all of the detail in Guy's work.

And, Dev, Burke never really went away in the intervening arcs. He certainly wasn't drawn as well and distinctively as under Guy's pencil, but his appearances in "Face" and "Brute" started the running gag of Burke being gassed by the Sandman and igniting Burke's hatred of the vigilante in the process.

Burke really shines here, even as he does some things that show what a bastard he can be. Here, we see Burke do real detective work that, for once, gets him a step ahead of Wesley's investigation in the final part.

Burke is a filthy machismo type with more than a little misogyny in his makeup, some of which comes through here as he's faced with a female antagonist. But he's a character you both love to hate and hate to love, and he's every bit as much a breakout character as Dian in a different way. I suspect it's Seagle's arrival that really underlines the expansion of Burke's role in the series.

But there's a lot going on in this story and the multiple themes it explores. Appropriately, they're all female-centric: feminism, misogyny, lesbianism and generally the steep climb women had (and still do, to an extent) toward equality. I don't think the script throws any of this in your face but lets you draw your own conclusions. It helps that Dian is once again the narrator in this arc, and her foibles, struggles and observations not only advance the themes but continue the character's personal journey of discovery.

It's such a superior arc and one that really begins to help set the stage for the series' identity over the rest of its run. It helps immensely that Guy Davis is here on two-thirds (I believe)of the arcs from this point-on. And Seagle really becomes integral to the series until the end as well. From here on out, SMT becomes a well-oiled machine that never ceases to amaze, touch and surprise you all the way until the (lamented) end.

One thing I forgot to mention is the fact that Wesley is still shown as being fallible. He isn't perfect and gets hurt because of it. This is a nice change from reading stories that the heroes either never get hurt, or get beaten to a pulp. He makes a mistake, but does not get taken out of the story. He gets through it, in pain. Even into the next arc (which I started) he is still dealing with the effects of what happened.

Yep. I remembered that this had happened to Wesley at some point but couldn't remember exactly where. I'm assuming/hoping he got more medical attention off-panel than what we saw!

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised! A quick look at the upcoming issues to see when the next guest-artist fills in shows that Guy Davis will draw every issue thru #32. That's 20 straight issues/5 arcs with him at the drawing board (though one of the arcs lists him only on "layouts" with Vince Locke doing the heavy-lifting)!

[Montgomery Burns]EX-cellent![/Montgomery Burns]

Looking over the series, my initial thought about Guy doing 2 out of every 3 arcs is essentially correct. The arc with Locke is unusual for him staying on to do layouts. Otherwise he has a guest artist spelling him for that third arc regularly. (He breaks with this to draw the final ten issues, the final arc of which is 2 issues--the only story in the series to break the 4-part structure.) Some good guests to come, though, including Michael Lark eventually!

Also, Matt Wagner stays aboard as co-writer MUCH longer than I remembered--all the way up to issue 56, leaving just 14 issues without his participation!

I'm curious, Dev, as to when you intend to read the Annual and Sandman Midnight Theatre, the "crossover" with Gaiman's Morpheus. I figure with both I'll read them around the time they were published, basically fitting them in between whatever was the latest arc they were published during and the next arc, unless there's some more perfect place they fit in the timeline. Hard to remember if there was.

I might even read Midnight after the final issue and see if it works as a kind of "coda" to SMT in a way. Depends on if the chronologies of the respective one-shots are loose or specific.

Thoughts on this matter, Dev?

I read 5 or 6 of the trades 3 years ago and I remember (possibly) 2 things:

1. The exact thing in "The Brute" that you and Dev discuss

2. A man is looking for somebody's current address. A woman calls a utility company and does a "did my husband call with our new address" con. Was that Wesley and Dian in SMT?

Don't remember the second thing offhand, Deb. Maybe Dev does? If not, we'll let you know if that's from SMT. Does sound vaguely familiar...

Deb, care to share your thoughts on that moment from "The Brute". Did you think it was well-done, overly crude or something else?

Looked up the chronology project layout of issues...cause that's how I roll.

They have the series and those issues broken down as:

1 - 12,
Annual 1,
13 - 36,
Sandman Midnight Theatre,
37 - 70

Not sure how hard and fast the positioning of those two are though.

There are also the 2 Vertigo Winters Edgeissues that have Wesley stories as well. Not sure, but I think that I have these...still in storage somewhere.

So, I guess we can do the Annual at any point now. Seems like next is as good a place as any. Also wanted to mention that I will be putting my own postscript arc from Starmnan when we finish this exercise. Seems fitting, as I think James Robinson handled Wesley very well at the time.

...and regarding the phone call thing TD mentions. It does sound like something that happened here, probably a bit later in the series, once they are kinda working together more on cases. It seems to me that this is exactly the sort of thing Dian would do to Wes eve before he could react.

As an aside, I remember vividly talking to Guy about the four part structure to the series and how I thought it would be cool to have it broken up once in a while. anywhere from 2 - 6 issue arcs. he said they were looking into doing just that. It was later in the run, so I think that they ran out of time before they could do any more than just the one 2 issue arc.

That's interesting since, looking at the new releases on the back page, the Annual had yet to be released, as of the beginning of "The Scorpion" (began with #17). All I remember is that the annual was standalone and featured several artists--and, oh yeah, it was AWESOME!



Don't remember those stories at all. May not even have them.



Hm? Was that the arc that tied into "The Mist" and the obvious connection with Robinson's use of the character in Starman? Or do you mean something else? I was also thinking of the initial arc of JSA....

I'm sure most of you will notice I edited the title to reflect what we're now discussing, something I plan to continue in order to draw more folks in. I think this is the solution to the earlier thought about whether or not spin-off threads would be necessary.

This brings up a caveat that I've had with some of the arcs to this point. Some of the conclusions have felt a little too rushed and crammed with much that maybe a little of the quieter moments were left out. I would've liked to see what happened with some of the other sorority sisters in the aftermath of "The Vamp" for instance. We'll see if they perfect the four act structure more as they go further. I suspect they will, but it can expose the problems of sticking with such a rigid structure.

I think I was surprised that they actually did it -- had a crime committed (off camera) against a child, no nick-of-time save. A child we "know". Within the story's timeline, not a flashback. I'm a little fuzzy on the end of the story, but I don't remember any miracle -- in fact, I think things continued downhill. (No need for recap.)

No, no miracles. It was all fairly Shakespearean in the end, actually. But there was a glimmer of hope left.

It's in issues 20 - 23 of Starman, and I think it was the "pseudo crossover" with SMT around the same time as the Mist storyline.

The opening JSA arc would be good as well.

Sorry, Fanfic Lady, I've been completely jammed up lately and haven't been able to comment on the Swamp Thing stuff (and there's a lot I want to say). Hopefully work eased up soon and I can get back to it.

That's okay, Dave, when it's meant to happen it'll happen.

Okay, grabbed some other SMT related things. Found my Sandman Midnight special. Also found Winters Edge #1...don't have the secnd one. Gonna have to find that one day. Also grabbed the first arc form JSA.

Also came across the Vertigo Jonah Hax minis. Landsdale and Truman. Those are next on the agenda after SMT.

I'm gonna finish "The Scorpion" tonight but might not start the next arc 'til the end of the week. On the Archives re-read thread, I promised a "Universo Project" re-read to compare to the great similar Universo 2-parter Jim Shooter wrote in Adventure 359-360. That, plus a busy work week, will occupy my time, most likely. Hope you don't get TOO far ahead, Dev!