Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

So I've already read GS 1 and X-Men 94. The eagle-eyed among you will see that a certain cameo in GS 1 inspired a spin-off thread in the LSH forum!

I don't really know what to say or add about GS 1. I've read it so many times over the years that I really didn't have any revelations this time (other than the cameo, which I think was my first notice).

It does strike me, however, that Krakoa itself was a concept that bore more exploring as depicted. There've been some minor subsequent revisitations (including a Brubaker retcon I didn't care for), but its fate left little room for further exploration. It was clearly created as a significant threat for the new team to form to defeat, but it could have been something more, for sure.

I'll talk about 94 and 95 after I read the conclusion. Perhaps, I'll add some more thoughts about GS 1 as well....

I have to say I was very underwhelmed with the idea of Krakoa. It's a throwback to Timely/Marvel monster comics of the '50s.

Giant-Sized X-Men #1 and X-Men #94-95

Although I could nitpick over the dubious science and the plotting weaknesses in these issues, the sheer raw energy of both the writing and, especially, Cockrum's art allows them to transcend those flaws in that uniquely Bronze Age way.

What's most interesting to me in re-reading these issues is how different some of the characters are from the way they will turn out over subsequent issues. First, there's Storm, who, IIRC, Wein intended to turn out to actually be a goddess. She's always been a character I've had very mixed feelings about the way Claremont developed her in the long run -- I'll get into the specifics as they come up. Then there's Wolverine, who Wein intended to be barely out of adolescence; I would much have preferred that, and for Banshee to be the seen-it-all older guy. Not that I agree with all of Wein's original plans -- Nightcrawler was supposed to be bitter and tormented, until Cockrum adopted him as his own good-humored swashbuckling alter ego; of that I heartily approve.

I guess the reason I'm talking more about what could have been than what is is because these issues, fun as they are, barely scratch the surface when all is said and done.

It's definitely interesting to see these characters in their earliest appearances and contrast this to how we know they will develop over time under Claremont's pen. You can see where they might have gone anywhere else because there is very little defined about their personalities in GS 1 with not much added in 94 and 95 to develop them more deeply....with one exception: Thunderbird.

It's fitting that Thunderbird gets the most development, such as it is, of the newcomers in those opening three issues since these would prove to be his only appearances ever. We see him assert his individuality consistently and his reluctance to be a follower. His persistence in calling Cyke "One-Eye", even at the latter's insistence to cease and desist, is the most obvious example of course.

So we see his bullheadedness, his temper and his simultaneous pride and shame in his heritage in a series of throwaway lines and incidents until we are led to 95's shocking ending, which is arguably one of the most unusual deaths of a comic book hero to this day. Thunderbird pursues Count Nefaria as the villain is making his getaway in a fighter jet. He refuses to dismount from the jet and continues tearing at it, basically causing it to explode and ensuring his own death.

The times I've read this story in the past, this sequence and John Proudstar's decision-making at the end have baffled me. I've waffled between chalking it up to the creators manufacturing the situation to suit the ends of having a shocking early death occur in the line-up or basically reading it as the character having a death wish .

But this time I read every scene Thunderbird figured into very carefully and have finally, I think, come to the interpretation that was desired. Proudstar's actions are borne of his desire to act as he felt a true Apache warrior should--to relentlessly pursue the enemy and vanquish him and not let him get away to do harm in the future. It's all there to be gleaned from his first scenes in GS 1 onward. Yes, the goal was clearly to shock the readers with the death of a member of this new batch of X-Men, but the foundation for the particular manner of his death was pretty solid.

Yes, the storytelling could have been subtler and less stereotypical in the characterization, but the seeds were planted from the beginning. It's nice, though, that we didn't have a character or caption encapsulate the reason he died in a simple, pat way. The reader is allowed to digest the senseless, sudden death without being told exactly how to feel. That shows respect for the reader and heralds this book as something that will be special and groundbreaking in the years to come.

In this day and age of continual temporary comic book deaths, this one is especially rare as it is one of the few that has (so far, knock on wood) been allowed to stand. Yes, a brother will be introduced in a few years, but the tragedy and senselessness of this second adventure of the new X-Men will be undiminished.

One caveat with the execution of this shocker, though: If you're really trying to sell that any of these new X-Men might be the one to die, then why have Thunderbird's face glaringly missing from the cover box showing all the stars of the book? If I'm a kid buying this off the shelf and the blurb professes that one of the X-Men will die, I'm easily betting on the one guy whose face isn't in the box, right? DUH! Play fair with your reader and leave some doubt, 'kay?

Another thing--and this isn't inherent in the story itself but in later events--if you're going to have a significant dramatic death like this and make it stand, couldn't you have the bad guy he died pursuing not survive the explosion either? To me, Nefaria's not any kind of indispensable villain in Marvel annals, so this could've been his swan song as well. I suppose his continued survival adds even more pathos to Thunderbird's tragedy, but I thought it would've been more fitting to retire Nefaria with Proudstar.

A lot of 'what ifs' still. What if Proudstar hadn't been killed off and became as iconic and well-developed as his fellow members of the Uncanny cast? What if they'd decided to kill off one of the others instead?

I've heard before that Claremont wanted to kill Wolverine off early on--though I don't think he meant instead of Thunderbird, but later? Anyone know if Claremont ever had a certain point in mind or if it was just his desire at some early point before he started liking the character? Can you imagine an alternate history without Logan as a Marvel superstar? While we would have missed out on some undeniably iconic and great stories, we would have been spared the characters eventual over-saturation and consequential dilution!

So that's my Thunderbird post. R.I.P. John Proudstar: I salute what you were and what you might have been! Tomorrow, a few more thoughts on these stories before I move on to the next few......

Great post, Lardy. A fitting tribute to John Proudstar.

I agree with you that Nefaria should have stayed dead. It's no secret that I think Jim Shooter's Nefaria Avengers story, and Shooter's Avengers run overall, are way overrated.

I think the most likely place for Wolverine to have died would have been the first battle against the Imperial Guard. Tellingly, John Byrne came aboard right after this and adopted Wolverine as his pet character. For whatever reason, Claremont may have given Wolverine a stay of execution which then never happened because Byrne, for better or worse, turned Wolverine into a fan-favorite. Myself, I think Wolverine was pretty cool during the Claremont/Byrne era, but when he got all pseudo-philosophical and his backstory got all convoluted, and the overexposure happened, I grew to dislike him intensely.

Thunderbird has been blessed with a quiet afterlife. He was killed before he could develop fans to complain (and he debutted before respect threads on the Internet). The brother plot device used in New Mutants was obvious, but it saved a resurrection for the sake of maintaining a copyright. James grew from a virtual clone into his own character. That is ultimately John's legacy.



If one of Claremont's more recent X-Men books is any indication, John might have become super-powerful. He wrote a mini-series a few years back about dead X-characters. The Thunderbird might have been a cosmic entity instead of the Phoenix.

There's no doubt in my mind that Marvel's milked the character dry. I've come to really loathe the character because of his overexposure. His presence in all those Avengers and X-Men books is completely ridiculous. Wolvie should never have been made an Avenger, period.

On the other hand, it's good to re-read these stories where the character was fresh, relevant and would shine in the years to come. It'll be interesting to see how that will line up with my current feelings about him.



Unfortunately, nothing I've read with James Proudstar in it has impressed me. From his use in New Mutants/X-Force to his starring role in some of the Brubaker issues, James comes off as little more than a Wolverine wannabe. Admittedly, I haven't read most of the character's appearances, but I haven't seen anything to show that he lives up to the potential I saw in his older brother.

My recollection of the early Wolverine is of a nasty little psychopath with a hair-trigger temper who threatens to attack even his own team mates. Angel was absolutely right to quit.

I don't remember anything memorable about James Proudstar. That would have been his early New Mutants appearances, a cameo here and there in cross overs as part of some ridiculous, secret violent X-Men team.

One problem I have with the line-up culling as depicted in 94 is that it was so clearly creator-dictated. There is no real justification as presented for the originals to leave. Particularly, it makes no sense for Jean to leave Scott. I can see that with what we know of Scott that it makes sense for him to stay, though.

It's particularly unfortunate for Havoc and Polaris/Lorna, who only really joined at the time of the X-Men's cancellation. It just doesn't make sense at all for them to leave. Basically, this decision relegates them to scattered guest appearances for well over a decade. All of the originals find homes in the interim when the franchise really blows up in the late '80s, but not these two.

But, yeah, Sunfire leaving makes perfect sense. I'm not really sure why he changed his mind and came after the others in GS 1, actually. Shiro's always been an abrasive character from what I've seen. Still, as much sense as it makes, you got to wonder why he was included in the first place and what might have been had he stayed and been developed under Claremont's pen.

On an odd note, though, I couldn't help but notice how awkwardly Cockrum drew the furry Beast in his cameo appearances on the splash of GS 1 and when he contacted the X-Men in 94. He just didn't look right. I wonder if he'll have more opportunities to draw furry hank in his run and whether the depiction will improve.

For that matter, why were the Avengers couldn't "handle" the Nefaria situation right then. Was the threat of nuclear Armageddon below their notice?!? A more in-depth reasoning might have been nice under the circumstances. Otherwise, why mention the Avengers at all?

I noticed that Claremont had Logan say "bub" right away in 94. I have to assume that was Claremont's doing as he didn't say it in in GS1. Dunno offhand if it was use in the Hulk appearance, but I'm thinking not. No mention yet of him having any powers beyond his claws, really. Not sure how much was established in Hulk. But no appearances yet without his mask on.

Nightcrawler does a blind teleport into the mountain with no angst. Clearly, Claremont hasn't yet decided on the limits to Kurt's power. With no visual confirmation of the innards, this would later be a risky 'port that could cause him to materialize in solid space.

Colossus is "Peter" in all of his appearances so far, not "Piotr". He also seems to have a bit of an early crush on Ororo. IIRC, this is pursued slightly further before settling into more of a brother/sister dynamic.

94-95 was just a really great story, one the likes of which we just don't see any more. A great, memorable way for the new X-Men to kick off their epic, classic run!

I don't have my X-Men collection available, but I've been enjoying the comments. I'll pipe in with thoughts and memories as I can.

Thank you, Cobie, for that insightful summation of the first few issues. I wasn't aware of all the behind-the-scenes events as Marvel that resulted in Wein withdrawing and Claremont taking over, etc. I enjoy learning this kind of stuff.

I recall reading--in the original Marvel Comics Index series, I believe--that Claremont contributed to GS X-Men # 1, though he is uncredited. Anyone know for sure, and if so, what he did? Dialogue? Plot? Lunch errands?

My first exposure to the new X-Men was issue # 95. I didn't get to read reprints of GS 1 and 94 until years later. The opening scene--of the new X-Men falling to their deaths--really caught my eye. A similar scene occurred in an earlier X-Men issue, and it was fun watching the heroes save themselves and each other. Same here. We learn Nightcrawler can't teleport while in motion (a limitation later writers would ignore) and must be carried by someone who flies. Colossus just dives right into the ground and is standing in the crater, waving, as the others land. Personality clashes abound even while they are falling! What a wonderful way of introducing the characters.

I remember little else about the story, other than Thunderbird's death. This was quite a shocker at the time because it could so easily have been avoided. Sean and Charles begged him to jump off the plane, but he refused. His pride was his undoing. The shocked reactions of the others--particularly Charles, who was telepathic communication with Proudstar when he died--really made this comic book death stand out.

I loved Sean Cassidy as the older guy who'd seen it all. As the series developed, he was someone for Charles to talk to--he even called Xavier by his first name instead of Professor--and the issue in which the X-Men visited Sean's castle in Ireland remains a fond memory. In 95, Sean is clearly in shock as he returns to the others following Thunderbird's death. At the age of 12, I was unused to super-heroes acting so real in the face of death. Most just shrugged it off like Clint Eastwood. At first, I thought Banshee was kind of weak for reacting that way. Time and real life have shown me differently.

As for Wolvie, my first stand-out memory of him is how he hacks away at the N'Gari demon in 96 and then immediately regrets losing control. He says something like, "Ten years of practice . . . ten years of praying . . . and I hacked away at him like he was nothing--and I enjoyed it!" A very complex character so far.

At a time when I should have been outgrowing comics--or so my parents expected--the All-New, All-Different X-Men gave me a reason to continue!

I'll say one thing, Huey--you have a DAMN good memory! Particularly that Wolvie quote--it's practically verbatim!

These are good insights, and I appreciate the contributions of such as yourself, Thothkins and Em, even if you can't re-read along with us. It's clearly an era that many have fond memories of. I anticipate this being one of the more lively re-read projects.

How long did you follow the X-Men, Huey?

Claremont did take the blonde girl in GS X-Men #1 and developed her into a complex (and to me somewhat convoluted) character. That at least shows he was aware of what was going on in the title. I think he might have been disappointed at the gender ratio he was handed, as most of the characters he introduced were female.

Since you mentioned the N'Garai, where exactly are they from? I know that Cthlon created them a long time ago in the Marvel Universe, but am unsure as to whether or not they live in Limbo. They are everywhere in the Marvel Heroes online game so I want to know.

Em, here's their Wikipedia article. It shows they had a LOT more than the two appearances I was aware of!

Thanks! It's amazing what you can remember--and how selective memory can be.



I thought X-Men was the greatest thing in comics, and, by extension, on the planet, until shortly after # 150. Then changes in artists, story lines that went nowhere, and endless spin-offs diluted the franchise. I hung on until # 191--I remember that as the breaking point (the Kulan Gath storyline?). Though I checked back a few times after--including the anniversary issues, 193 and 200--the series had become a shadow of its former self.

Yeah, I hung in a lot longer than you did, but the dilution of the franchise into increasing spin-offs started the slow, lingering death of the X-Men for me.

Meanwhile, issue 96, featuring the N'Garai's first appearance, is less impressive for the rather generic, out of nowhere antagonist than it is for the world and character building that Claremont injects in and around the threat. Certainly, the teases with Lang and the looming Sentinel threat are more intriguing than the immediate action.

But as Huey points out, Wolverine gets some significant moments. In addition to the confrontation with Kierrok and that revealing piece of dialogue, earlier in the same story, he nearly kills Kurt for mocking him during a routine Danger Room exercise. Oddly enough, Logan's actions are barely reprimanded at all. Odder still, later in the same issue, Wolvie's rampage against Kierrok is fueled by Kierrok zapping Nightcrawler. Wolvie declares Nightcrawler's "Wolverine's buddy" as he charges in hacking and slashing.

It's a bit of seemingly uneven writing. But maybe Claremont was already painting the depths of Wolverine's conflicted nature. If so, you can certainly see why Logan needed the help that Xavier and the X-Men could provide.

But you also get the intro of Moira MacTaggart, as a housekeeper of all things (but with plenty of hints that there's more to her), the immediate attraction between her and Sean (more on his side) and some of the first deep characterization of Storm as her claustrophobia is hinted at.

And Michael Rossi....I could swear he appears later as a recurring supporting character (one of the two who gets turned into an indian during the NM "Demon Bear" saga?), but I'm probably confusing him with someone else as his survival seems unlikely here.

Another very good issue, but more for all the great foundations being laid for the future (including the classic Kitty Pryde solo Christmas story nearly 50 issues hence that revisits the N'Garai) more than for the big battle advertised on the cover.

In addition to Wolverine's comment, my other standout memory of X-Men 96 is the beginning, with Cyclops wandering in the woods, anguished over Thunderbird's death. (Proudstar's face is even "carved" into a rock!) I was still fairly new to the Marvel universe, so the continuity from one issue to the next was still novel to me. Even more unusual was that the opening scene had nothing to do with a super-villain or saving the world, but with one character's private grief.

In some ways, Marvel went overboard with this type of pathos as every character from Spider-Man to Thor had reason to feel sorry for himself. But for Cyclops, the team leader, the grief of losing a member seemed genuine.

Villains like the N'Gari and Eric the Red (in the next issue) didn't matter all that much. The interactions between these diverse and complex personalities who, nevertheless, became a family was what made the X-Men so appealing.

He Who, Claremont's contribution to GSXM #1 was to help Wein figure out a way for the X-Men to defeat Krakoa.

Thanks, Fanfie. Is this from an interview somewhere?

Lardy, Michael Rossi wasn't the one who got race-changed by Claremont in New Mutants -- that was Tom Corsi.

You're welcome, He Who. It was from an interview Claremont did sometime in the 80s. There were several interviews with X-Men creators printed into a volume called The X-Men Companion...at least I think that's the title. There may have also been a second volume.

I see how I got confused. There's a certain similarity to their names. Michael Rossi, Tom Corsi, Tom Fatsi.....

Tom Fatsi was race changed?!?

Good one, guys.

Tom Corsi, Sharon Friedlander, and various other humans interacting with the X-folk, or even working at the mansion, like Moira McTaggart and Stevie Hunter, are something I miss from that generation, as it seemed that Xavier was actually trying to 'live the dream' of mutants and humans co-existing. I later years, humans working alongside the mutants, or even dating them (like Amanda Sefton, Trish Tilby, Candy Southern or Charlotte Jones) tended to get ditched in favor of yet more mutants.

Like the inclusion of 'NPCs' like R.J. Brande, Chief Zendrak, Dr. Gym'll, etc. in the Legion, or Alicia Masters, Wyatt Wingfoot, etc. in Fantastic Four, I think the inclusion of people who aren't members of the various teams or super-groups makes for a much stronger setting, and gives a better sense of what (and who) the heroes are fighting for than having them interacting with people who are never seen again.

.

These earlier issues were sometimes hit or miss for me. I remember one with leprechauns haunting Sean Cassidy's ancestral castle that made me cringe...