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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Cobalt Kid #801380 02/12/14 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
My reaction to Colleen giving Cyke a key was the same as Lardy’s. It’s amazing how serious that got!


What he's trying to says is: This means that Scott Summers and Colleen Wing TOTALLY did it!!! nod lol


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801383 02/12/14 02:47 PM
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Uncanny X-Men 123-124

It's interesting that Cobie mentions that Byrne's headshots replaced Cockrum's around this time. It reminds me to finally mention that, to this point, Byrne has drawn very few of the covers, leaving most of them to Cockrum. Ironically, Cockrum didn't draw many of the covers during his own run. I find it actually disappointing that Byrne didn't do most of these, not even the ones with Alpha Flight in them. Byrne is obviously a great cover artist, so it's a shame he didn't cover a good portion of his early run of one of his seminal works. (123, btw, features Terry Austin by himself on the cover.)

Y'know, reading Spidey's appearance here and remembering Claremont's MTU stories fondly, I think it's kind of a shame that Claremont didn't do more of a run on Spider-man. He definitely has a feel for how to write the character and could have been legendary there, as well, if given the chance.

The scenes of the X-Men being captured are all interesting and well done. And we get to see the tail end of Logan meeting up with Mariko before he's captured off-panel. I wish we could've seen more of their dinner together!

This was really just a fun story that gives all of the X-Men moments to shine and highlight their characters. In a way it's like an extended Danger Room scenario.

The big exception was the unique tactic Arcade used on Colossus to turn him against the others. Not very much is shown of how this was done; we just have to take it as a matter of fact. It's kind of a Bronze Age shortcut, but it's well set up by the recent character development Peter's gotten.

Interesting to see Banshee captured along with the rest of them. I think one of the biggest points Claremont and Byrne were trying to make with his inclusion is that Sean's power loss wasn't improving any time soon. Many readers were probably expecting his power to return here and help him save himself. To his credit, he's able to hang in there long enough before Logan steps in to save him. But this should've shown readers that Banshee's retirement is inevitable.

I liked two scenes the most towards the end: the one where Cyke resuscitates Storm from drowning and the one where Storm and Cyke talk Peter down from his brainwashed state. The latter just nails down that these X-Men are a family. Peter, who misses his real family so much, is roused by the realization that he has another family as well. It's a pretty touching moment.

Overall, a fun 2-parter that's nicely self-contained before all of the heavy stuff that is to come.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801384 02/12/14 02:48 PM
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nod Pretty much!

Well, it's basically implied the Hellfire Club is all about sex anyway, so there's no doubt Jean got it on with Jason. Hell, I wonder if she had an orgy with the rest of them.

As for Alpha Flight, I don't think I've ever read a single issue of it! We own like the first 120 or something. Eventually it got so bad that my dad cancelled it in the early 90's. But we hung in there for a long time.

Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801385 02/12/14 02:54 PM
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I'm surprised because you seemed pretty in to the Pak/Van Lente launch a few years ago. Since that was as much about reviving the original Byrne characters as anything, I thought you must have been into the original series. I would definitely recommend the first 28 Byrne-created issues! nod


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801390 02/12/14 03:45 PM
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Since we’re on a little bit of a roll here, I’ll post one more and then take a break to let Fanfie eventually catch up. But as I had a little time last night, I went ahead and read the entire Proteus story since once you begin it, it is so damn good that you MUST read the whole thing.

Uncanny X-Men 125 – 128: the Proteus Saga

As I state above, the Proteus Saga isn’t just good: it’s plain fantastic. This is a GREAT story! Everything that came before had been pretty damn excellent now Claremont & Byrne & Austen take things to a whole new level. In fact, I would say that the only reason people don’t go bananas about the Proteus Saga is that what follows immediately after is the Hellfire Club and the Dark Phoenix Saga, which is even better! But just because the greatest X-Men story of them all is to follow shouldn’t take away from how excellent this story is.

What we have is a four part story where each individual issue serves a unique purpose from an action / montage perspective, all the while bringing together an overarching plot that is chalk full of character. You have an antagonist in Proteus whose super-powers are incredibly abstract and powerful, yet he’s kept close to reality by having an excellent, human backstory with Moira and Joe McTaggert. So we get the best of both worlds and the creators pull them both off perfectly: the action is uber-intense and the story is human and compelling.

Moira’s secret is at last revealed and she comes off very well here. At times she’s in distress and at other times she’s the master of her own destiny. Most importantly, she’s a complex character that is multi-layered and runs the full gamut of emotions in the story. I also think the clear implication was that Joe raped Moira—in a classic case of spousal rape—to produce the baby. That’s how I read it. It makes things much more heavy.

Jean also is paramount to the story in a variety of ways as readers get reacquainted with her. In the letter’s page in #124, the editor proclaims “new readers who have been wondering all the fuss is about: get ready to meet the Phoenix!”. Clearly they were building to this. Yet, while worries of Jean’s powers and Jean kicking ass are paramount to the story, the reunion leaves the readers feeling a bit uncomfortable. There is no beautiful reunion with Scott and that must have been jarring. But I think in the long run it makes what is to come in Dark Phoenix, including their really romantic and beautiful moment on mesa, so much more powerful. Jean’s seduction by Wyngarde is in full effect throughout and its incredible how scary it is—the sequence where they hunt down “the greatest game” and Jean joyfully prepares to kill the poor man is horrifying. It’s well done, and never once detracts from the main plot. These are some bold choices by Claremont and Byrne, by forgoing the easy soap opera reunion and keeping things complex.

The extended cast is a lot of fun as well. While the X-Men never once lose its leading men status, we get to see Havok, Polaris, Moira and to a lesser extent Madrox play a part. With Jean back, it feels awesome to see so many mutants running around together.

Once again, even without powers, Banshee shines in every scene he’s in. His exit doesn’t really come until the next issue, but it’s clear by the happy ending that he “must” exit the team; it just makes total sense from every storytelling perspective. But it isn’t overly said or melancholy, it just fits.

To me, even beyond the up front Proteus plot, this story is really about being the culmination of the 6 main X-Men coalescing as both a family unit and a fighting squad. This has been happening ever since the second battle with Magneto (and truly since Giant Sized #1), but it all comes together here. With Sean’s exit, that only underscores things, as they no longer need his ongoing dose of maturity and status as a peacekeeper. Cyclops is clearly the leader here, and a damn good one. The sequence with he and Wolverine brings together one of the final elements needed to get to this point: Cyke shows a clear concern over Logan, and Logan admits in front of everyone that he was wrong about Scott, who now has his respect, friendship and promise to fall in line. That is the single best scene of the entire story—including Storm and Nightcrawler sticking up for Logan.

Colossus also plays a big part in this, and it ties into the subplot Lardy brought up so nicely: here, he at long last emerges as the one to save the day, and he does so with style. There is a clear confidence at play here, from his defeat of Proteus to his holding Moira tightly to let her mourn her child. He feels very much like a leading man full of heroism and quiet empathy. His evolution to this point mirrors the growing resolution between Logan and Scott.

Cyclops says that the new X-Men will never be like the originals, who functioned as a well oil machine and then adds “maybe that’s not even a desirable goal anymore”. And in a nutshell, Claremont defines what the All-New X-Men are about. They are not the originals and more a collection of intense individuals, but nonetheless, they are no less a team—or a family—than the original 5.

It’s noteworthy that both Jean and Professor X stand outside this, though. When Professor X returns, there will be a definite tension and he will have a hard time understanding that. In fact, whenever both Cyclops and Professor X are both part of the X-Men hereafter, it will always feel awkward. Because Cyclops doesn’t need the Prof anymore. Professor X is best served now by training younger mutants like Kitty (whose appearance provides the Professor a reason to stay in the series) and then the New Mutants.

Even on top of all of this, which is heady stuff, there is still a ton of other things going on. We get a great interlude with Magneto that at first feels out of left field but shows that Magneto is quietly becoming a part of the recurring cast even if he’s not always on-panel. His scene showcases him once again as a complex, multi-layered man. We also see his wife Magda for the first time. It’s amazing that this scene won’t be followed up on for 20 issues, at which point he’ll truly evolve beyond the trappings of a comic book super-villain (and change how comic book villains in general are perceived). We also learn Wolverine had an adamantium skeleton; until now we just knew he had unbreakable bones. Each story continues to give us little tidbits of Logan’s mysterious and interesting past. There is also the heavy theme of taking a life, especially in the sequence where Moira prepares to kill her son but Cyclops stops her. Personally, I agree with Moira. Ultimately in the long term, so would Claremont. I think he had no easy answers himself at this point but eventually, the X-Men’s experiences would cause him to make up his mind.

Until this point there had been a lot of fantastic stories; now we had a masterpiece. What’s amazing is it only gets even better from here.


Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801443 02/13/14 09:41 PM
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Uncanny X-Men Annual 3

Being that Cobie's never read this one, I'm going to keep it pretty much spoiler-free, aside from some small details.

First of all, this annual is very much a standalone tale and doesn't expand any on the ongoing plotlines of the home book. There's a caption that explains that the story takes place between 124 & 125, but there're no allusions to the adventure in Murderworld or anything. The only other X-Men-specific editor's note, other than the (unnecessary) one explaining when the story took place, is one noting which issue Banshee lost his powers. There are other editor's notes for the flashback sequences to previous stories featuring the story's antagonist. (More on him in a bit.)

I like very much that this annual is so self-contained. In my opinion an annual should ideally either be a self-contained done-in-one or the culmination/grand finale of a great storyline begun in the home comic. This is clearly the former and works as a great primer for the X-uninitiated to learn more about this strange cult hit. The extended Danger Room sequence Claremont opens with is just a dandy way to learn about these characters' powers and how their particular dynamic.

Claremont stated in his intro to this edition of Marvel Masterworks that a big reason for his choice of antagonist for this story was to maybe coax some Avengers fans over to try his title. (It's funny, in hindsight, to be reminded of the X-Men's relative lesser level of success to the latter.) So Claremont chose to use 2 or 3-time Avenger foe Arkon in this tale. Arkon returns to Earth from his home dimension seeking Thor for mysterious reasons. In a kind of hilarious encounter with Jarvis, Arkon learns Thor isn't available. But it seems there's a Plan B which leads him to the X-Mansion.

Very notable about this annual is that the penciller was none other than the great George Perez! I mean, how spoiled are we X-Fans? Cockrum, Byrne and now George frickin' Perez?!?! In the intro, Claremont stated that this was his one and only collaboration with Perez. Perez's pencils (inked by Terry Austin!) are quite beautiful and as detailed as you'd expect. However, I prefer his work from New Teen Titans-on, as I feel his style became more unique, distinctive and pointed than it was here and on his early FF and Avengers runs. But it's still great and a real treat to see. He nails all of the X-Men for sure. I can't help but think, though, that his Arkon would have been more memorable in his later style. (Memory flash: Arkon appeared during his much later Avengers run w/Busiek! Must compare and contrast later!)

So in the end, we have a very nice story, if not a particularly essential or terribly memorable one. It's also pretty distinctive from any produced during the new X-Men's run to this point. Though it's somewhat more cosmic, it doesn't feel like a re-do of, say, the Shi'ar epic. There are elements that remind slightly of that story and the recent Savage Land adventure, but it's unique enough to impress.

Interestingly enough, there will be a sequel encounter with Arkon in Annual 5!


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801522 02/15/14 11:11 AM
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MUTHERF$%^!

I'VE NEVER READ THIS!!!!!! how? why? where? ... I missed ... what?

... hold on ... I might have to have a nervous break down .... ala james Wyngarde ... see you in a few hundred issues.

George Perez and Terry Austin!


Last edited by Power Boy; 02/15/14 11:16 AM.
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801601 02/16/14 09:06 AM
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Before I post my next review, I thought I'd ask when we should take our first break? At the end of Proteus? At the end of Dark Phoenix? At the end of the Claremont/Byrne era? The last of those options seems the most attractive to me personally.

Uncanny X-Men 121-128 and Annual 3

Yes, I read past my usual five issues a week, because as Cobie said, once you start reading the Proteus Saga, you just can't stop.

But first, Alpha Flight. This is a terrfic story, and these are wonderful characters with great potential, and here's my own two cents on their first solo series: I loved the first issue, which was relatively light-hearted, but thought it went all downhill in the second issue when Marrina disembowels Puck. For a guy who claims that comics should be fun, Byrne can get oppressively dark a lot of the time.

Except for the annual, which I'll get to shortly, I'm not the biggest fan of the issues sandwiched between Alpha Flight and Proteus. 122 has its moments, but the ghetto sequence, despite an enjoyable cameo from Misty Knight and Luke Cage, falls short for me. It's one of those moments I mentioned earlier, when Storm seems awfully naive to me, considering she grew up fast on the streets of Cairo. Then again, many people who are forced to grow up fast do retain an inner child's longing for the times before they had to grow up fast. As for Arcade, I thought he worked great in MTU, but I don't think he's quite the caliber of villain for the X-Men in its prime, and Colossus' brainwashing into the Proletarian seems rushed and a bit "on the nose".

The annual, though, is wonderful. Perez and Austin mesh beautifully, and Arkon is always a favorite of mine.

And, finally, Proteus. Just when it looked like Claremont and Byrne were faltering, we get their best story yet. Far beyond the easter eggs of Colossus' great climactic moment, of seeing Havok, Polaris, and Madrox in action, and of a de-powered Banshee more than rising to the challenge, we get some backstory for Moira (and it's sad to think that, where Claremont & Byrne say a lot with a few well-written lines and some effective facial expressions, a modern creative team would probably do a gratuitously graphic flashback to the unpleasant events of the past.) Proteus, as irredeemably horrible as he is, is also a genuinely tragic character who never had a chance. Claremont & Byrne raise some very tough questions, but without being at all heavy-handed about it.

Regarding the Magneto scene, I wonder sometimes if Claremont & Byrne might have meant to pick up on that thread while they were still together, but couldn't come to a compromise of their differing views on the character -- after all, Byrne was one of the prime architects behind Magneto's return to villainy in the early 90s.

I also want to mention something that I've kept forgetting to say: the X-Men editor from the Magneto saga through the early part of Dark Phoenix is Roger Stern, and though he has always said that he didn't enjoy being an editor, he was sure good at it.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801605 02/16/14 10:07 AM
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Fanfie, great comments! I also prefer waiting until the last Claremont / Byrne story before we take our first break. The quality is so high at this point post-Proteus, I'm super excited to read the rest.

Good point about Roger Stern as well--it's important that he was editor during this era, since he was indeed damn good at it. It's clear that Stern is the kind of person who pours every bit of effort into everything he does.

The X-Men, for the most part, were always been blessed with great editors. After Stern came Weezie and Ann Nocenti, and both left a strong mark on the series.

It's actually right around the start of Dark Phoenix that Stern and Byrne extended their business relationship to a partnership with their brief run on Captain America, which is what got Roger started as one of Marvel's go-to writers. It's actually quite good, btw, especially the issue that follows up on Steve Ditko's "Just a Guy Named Joe" from the silver age.

You guys who we're collecting off the racks in the coming years were so spoiled by Marvel: Claremont & company X-Men, Byrne FF, Stern Spider-Man and Avengers, Frank Miller Daredevil, and then soon Simonson Thor, DeMatteis / Zeck Cap and Layton / Michellenie on Iron Man for round 2. Not to mention so many other great things. Truly the last "great age" of superhero comics.

Last edited by Cobalt Kid; 02/16/14 10:07 AM.
Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801620 02/16/14 02:57 PM
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Thanks, Cobie.

Yeah, Stern and Byrne make a great creative team. Their JLA: That Was Then This Is Now from a few years ago is one of the few recent things from DC that I've enjoyed.

While I love the mutant books under Ann Nocenti's editorship, I'm actually rather ambivalent about Weezie Simonson's stint as mutant books editor -- I think she indulged Claremont's darker sensibilities too much; Nocenti seemed to have a better sense of where to draw the line. I'll get into all of that in more depth once the re-read reaches those eras.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801831 02/20/14 03:31 PM
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I agree that we should read thru 143, the end of Claremont/Byrne, before taking our first break. I hope, though, that the break won't be very long! nod

Uncanny X-Men 125-128

Lots of good points about the Proteus Saga, many of which mirror or enhance my own, but I'd like to highlight a few things:

I was stunned and transfixed by Wolverine's show of weakness in the face of Proteus' attack. I had totally forgotten about this! I found it very remarkable and further indicative of why I used to love the character. There's a lot unsaid (and un-narrated) as to why Logan reacted the way he did, but it really speaks volumes about his character. He'd come to rely so strongly on his senses and his self awareness that having those things taken away from him and subverted would truly bring a character like him, who had pretty much nothing else, to a dark place. I liked seeing Wolverine vulnerable and genuinely freaked out. He's really become a caricature of himself over the decades, all machismo and stoicism. It's nice to be reminded of how three-dimensional and fully realized the character used to be.

Proteus's powers really come off ill-defined and vague. I know much the same can be said of similarly extremely powerful villains, but trying to understand his powers took me out of the story at times. Apparently, for example, he could create living creatures (bees) that apparently continued existing from then on, he could turn the horizontal to the vertical and could manipulate matter fluidly. But he was limited by his burning out bodies and was vulnerable to metal. Why couldn't he manipulate his own body to stave off burning out or use his powers in any number of ways to travel without having to steal cars? And how could he affect Wolverine who had an adamantium skeleton? I dunno. It's a glaring weakness to the story, but all the great drama and interaction between the characters made it fairly easy to overlook. But age clearly brought more questions to the story than young adult-me ever had.

I, too, inferred what must have happened between Joe and Moira MacTaggert and how that produced Proteus. I'll echo the observances of how tastefully and not heavy-handed this was handled. Modern comics would, no doubt, "go there". But here it was all between the lines, and I miss that more subtle approach. Part of me would have preferred some sort of catharsis between mother and son (and even between Moira and Joe) before the end, but, as in life, there is often no cathartic closure. (I know this from personal experience.) But at least Moira has Sean for comfort.

So despite some flaws, this is a great highlight of a great era in comics, with even greater heights to come very soon. And, more and more, I miss narrative captions and thought bubbles soooooo much!


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801837 02/20/14 06:08 PM
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143 it is, then. I hope the break won't be long, either.

Good point about Wolverine's vulnerability, Lardy. What also made an impression on me was how Cyclops snapped him out of it, finally gaining his respect. So many good character scenes in this story.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801882 02/21/14 02:15 PM
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I actually also really hope it isn't a long break. Honestly, I could go with no break at all. I'm having a ton of fun as the series picks up steam.

Some great points Lardy about the Wolvie / Cyke moment. I mentioned in my post, I also liked how Nightcrawler and Storm immediately sprang to Wolverine's defense as well. Meanwhile, Jean quietly supported Scott and understood what he was doing. It's a fantastic scene for Logan, and an equally good scene for Scott, yet also an all around good scene for everyone else. That's what happens when you have a creative team in total control of the characters who understand them implicitly.

You're main point is well taken, too. Wolverine (and so many others, even Batman a lot of the time) has become a parody of himself. He once was multi-layered and could show a broad spectrum of emotion and character. It's so enjoyable to read *that* Wolverine again.

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Lard Lad #801883 02/21/14 02:58 PM
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Uncanny X-Men #129 - 131
As so we begin the march to Dark Phoenix! The issues #129 - 137 all really encompass that larger storyline, which is a kind of Hellfire Club shift into Dark Phoenix story, but I usually like to break it up into three parts: the introductory Hellfire / Dazzler / Kitty story 3-parter, then the 3-part Hellfire Club proper story and then finally the Dark Phoenix story itself. So that's how I'll review them.

That being said, when one considers the steady march from 129 to the final panel of Dark Phoenix, it's amazing at how well the story steadily progresses and every step of the way the tension gets ramped up more and more. The Hellfire Club is introduced as a highly dangerous organization; later we are shown that full blast rather than being told that. And then finally when you think things couldn't get any more disbursing or dangerous--tragedy really strikes. It's totally compelling and even after reading this many times before (as recently as 2 years ago), I found myself totally wrapped up in it all again.

This first part is all about transitions as we get a few major changes: Sean officially exits for good, as does Moira, Alex and Lorna. Jamie is offered a spot on the team and declines, which is one of those things I always found fascinating. From there, we get a reunion with Professor X, and that's where things get interesting. At first he's caring and emotional, but soon after (as I hinted in my last review) the reunion isn't quite so rosy. He wants to go back to the old style of training and that simply won't work with the fully matured and changed team that emerged from the Proteus Saga. The clash with Logan is especially well done, and then he lashes out at Scott far too harshly. I can't help but get angry at Professor X here which is of course the point. While Jean and Scott are the clear stars from here on out, Professor X plays an odd yet realistic roll in his relationships with both characters throughout Dark Phoenix as he also struggles with how much things have changed between them all.

We see Jean & Scott reconcile with Scott explaining his grief. The real romantic moment is in the next 3 part arc, but I find this scene to also be romantic and compelling. Their romance is not an easy one and that makes it realistic. Yet as complex as it is, it's clear these two characters do love each other deeply and that love will firmly plant the X-Men on relatable ground throughout all the cosmic tragedy to come.

The Hellfire Club is introduced here but they remain somewhat ominous throughout the opening arc. The exception is Emma Frost who is introduced firmly and what stands out beyond the repeated usage of telepathy is how damn *sexy* she is. Both Claremont and Byrne would famously sex things up in many series they worked on so its hard to tell where this is coming from (and probably from both). Everyone knows the Hellfire Club is inspired by the Avengers television show and one episode in particular, but it’s the way Claremont and Byrne use them here--sexiness and all--that ends up influencing the entire next 30 years of comic book villains (and just about everyone else).

What's scary is there are really clubs like this. I just ate lunch in the Princeton Club in NYC on Monday. Only Princeton and Columbia grads and their guests can eat there. Talk all around the club was basically the same: conservative viewpoints on how to fix the world.

While the Hellfire Club is front and center, for me the best part of this entire story is the introduction of Dazzler and Kitty Pryde. Who am I kidding? It's really Kitty that does it. Kitty Pryde: one of the most fantastic new characters of the entire 1980's, and she shines from the very first panel she appears in. When I first discovered her at age 17 or so, I couldn't help but fall in love with her. Only later did I find out it was a case of "yeah, you and every one else". The letter's pages basically go bananas over Kitty from her very first appearance onwards and Claremont comments immediately that John and he are thrilled she's a hit and she'll be showing back up ASAP. But how could you not fall in love with Kitty? She's the ultimate POV-character, she's a little naïve and generally good, and most importantly she's intelligent, courageous and clever. Her parents are divorcing which causes you to immediately empathize with her, and she's just discovering her powers, allowing for the old adage of "discovering powers" being a metaphor for "discovering sexuality" work to its full advantage. She's a fully formed fantastic character from day one, and I immediately want to know everything that ever happens to her hereafter.

BTW, the way she's dressed reminds me of the movie Dazed and Confused, which also takes place in 1979.

We also get Dazzler too, although her introduction is nowhere near as great as Kitty's. Dazzler is interesting but she's never been my favorite character--I think I like the idea of Dazzler more than the character herself and would never buy anything for her alone, as it would have to have a killer creative team and hook to go with it. It doesn't help that by 1979 disco is already dead and totally uncool, and then in addition to that she never really seemed to *want* to be a superhero all that much. Still it's amazing she had a series for as long as she did.

I love that Kitty and Ororo are fast friends, as their relationship to me is one of the best parts of the X-Men in the post Dark Phoenix era. In the scene where that is developing, I love how in the background Logan is looking a Hustler in the middle of the day and showing it off to a shocked Colossus. It's one of the funniest moments of the entire era.

Nightcrawler also has a huge moment in this arc even though it’s a little underplayed: he ditches the image inducer! That's huge for him, and a major step in the X-Men, as the series continues to move back towards the idea of mutants being a hated minority. We also see, subsequently, that Kitty is scared of him which is tragic. But as time goes on in the early post-DP issues, we'll see her getting over that, which is of course the point. It's all incredibly well done.

As the first part comes to an end we get a great action sequence with the X-Men victorious, and then Dazzler and Kitty exit stage left, while the story continues. Meanwhile, Jason has continued to seduce Jean, which has taken a turn towards the even more sinister and scary. Jean's assault on Emma shows something has gone terribly wrong, and even more alarming, she uses her powers on Kitty's dad.

Just three issues and so much to love...and the real story has yet to even begin!

Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801886 02/21/14 08:18 PM
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You know, if everybody hopes the break will be short, is one even necessary? I mentioned the possibility of one upfront, hoping to prevent the burn-out that occurred with the Legion Archives project. But so far, everyone (and admittedly, it's a smaller group of participants here) seems to be dialed in.

I'm up for continuing without a break. Cobie is, also. What about you, Fickles? If you're game, we can soldier on further. (But if you really want the break, please don't feel like you're under pressure to conform. Speak/post freely. nod )


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801918 02/22/14 11:02 AM
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I'm totally in favor of soldiering on without a break. And, of course, if anyone eventually reaches a point where they want to stop for a while, that's fine with me, too.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801923 02/22/14 05:27 PM
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Alright--it's settled! We keep our asses movin'! grin nod


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #801951 02/23/14 12:31 AM
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Uncanny X-Men 129-131

As Cobie says, a really excellent mini-arc within what would become the larger "Dark Phoenix" saga. I think Cobie nailed all of the salient points, but I'll go a step further....

I think that this is where the new X-men under Claremont really comes into its own once and for all. This is not to imply that the run prior to these issues is anything less than classic, but here, in these issues, is where it starts paving new ground.

I mentioned in earlier reviews that there were frequent love letters to the Thomas/Adams run through the Savage Land arc. Well, looking back at everything from issue 94-on, Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne repeatedly reused familiar threats that had been seen before. In fact, very few original antagonists were created. The major foes the X-Men faced were Nefaria, the Sentinels, the Juggernaut, Magneto, Sauron, Garokk, Moses Magnum, Arkon and Arcade--all of whom had previously appeared. Sprinkled in there were some new characters like the N'Garai, Black Tom and Farouk, but only Black Tom appeared in more than one issue and was partnered with Juggernaut. It is notable, however, that the Imperial Guard and Alpha Flight were original and debuted in the run. These were antagonists for the X-Men, but they were not really villains.

And of course, there was Proteus, which in hindsight was a harbinger that Claremont and Byrne were ready to blaze their own path. It was a good start, but in the end he was a one-off threat (the poor decision to bring him back by later creative teams notwithstanding) and one simply designed to tell a particular story. But he was different than what had come before and portended more than just great storytelling with familiar threats.

Enter: the Hellfire Club! Counting among their number 2 major characters to the longterm mythos in Emma Frost and Sebastian Shaw, Claremont and Byrne finally added a formidable new enemy to the rogues gallery that was different from anything the franchise (and Marvel in the big picture) had produced prior to their introduction. This is the new X-Men breaking free of their forebears once and for all and the comic exceeding and defying expectations! This is where legends truly began to be made and what made the X-Men the biggest selling franchise in comics.

Yep, Claremont and Byrne used Mastermind, a pre-existing character, into the group. However, this was practically an obscure, little-seen character who was used in an ingeniously effective manner. Plus, Wyngarde would only be a part of the Hellfire Club for a handful of issues and was never a full member of the Inner Circle. As crucial as he was to their introduction, the Hellfire Club had such legs that he wasn't missed in later stories.

Aside from their first big new villain, we are also introduced to a young lady who would become the first new member to join since GS 1: Kitty Pryde! In hindsight it's unbelievable how patient Claremont and company were to hold back and focus on developing the new cast for so many years without adding new members. Outside of the Fantastic Four, can you think of any super team to not add new members over such a long period of time?

To me, introducing Kitty (eventually the first new X-Man since the relaunch) in the same issue that the Hellfire Club (the first major new villains since the relaunch) is just so huge that it can't be overstated. I'll go out and say that 129 is the most important issue of the run to date since GS 1. In some ways it's just as important as 137...and arguably may be even more important. Debate amongst ya-selves! grin

Aside: Interestingly, the Masterworks volume that ends with 131 includes a character design by Byrne of Kitty Pryde. The notes Byrne writes make it read as a pitch from him to Claremont. If I'm reading this right, then Byrne created her character and convinced Claremont to bring her into the book. He draws her in the black and yellow version of the original X-Men costume that she would sport for some time. But his notes also contain Byrne's idea for her as being part of a younger 2nd team, rather than a proper X-Man. Too bad they never used that idea, eh? wink


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #802057 02/24/14 01:11 PM
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Uncanny X-Men #129-131

And so Claremont & Byrne's magnum opus finally takes off. I agree with Lardy that Kitty Pryde's importance cannot be overestimated and I agree with Cobie that she's impossible not to love. I should mention that, as Kitty evolved, Claremont says he drew more and more inspiration from Louise Simonson's daughter, who was about Kitty's age at the time. And that's crucial about Kitty -- she comes across as a real 13 and a half year old girl, full of the same enthusiasms and insecurities that every girl has gone through at that age. Kitty was the most relatable character to fangirls like me since the pre-retcon Patsy Walker.

Then there's Emma Frost. I must confess I had forgotten what a vicious sadist she is in her earliest appearance. She's certainly come a long way since then...kinda sorta.

And, finally, Dazzler. Meaning no disrespect to her many fans here on Legion World, I have to admit that I can't stand her. In her first appearance she comes off as a self-centered poser, a whitebread girl trying to be funky and failing (she uses a Jimmy J.J. Walker catchphrase, for crying out loud.) In her own series , I thought she was really whiny, in Beauty and the Beast even Ann Nocenti couldn't make her sympathetic to me, and when she joined the X-Men she became more annoying than ever. I think the only reason she lasted so long is that she was always seen by Jim Shooter as a potential gold mine -- it can't be a coincidence that she faded into the background after Shooter was fired.

I should also mention that, in between Roger Stern and Louise Simonson's editing stints on X-Men, there was a brief stint by Jim Salicrup -- the same guy who edited Avengers during some of that book's most shameful moments (the rape of Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket's violent outburst towards the Wasp, Moondragon's rape of Thor); the same guy whose ineptitude caused Stern & Byrne to walk off Captain America after less than ten issues; the same guy who turned Spider-Man into a Todd McFarlane vanity project; and, finally, the same guy who may or may not have been responsible for Jean Grey killing herself. I'll get to that last point in more detail when we get to the issues in question.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #802065 02/24/14 02:34 PM
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You know, I know all of those things about Salicrup but I've never had someone lay them all out like that before. Certainly sounds like he was one of those notorious editors that Marvel and DC always have that does more damage than good when he takes over a series. Really unfortunate. Luckily he didn't do too much damage with X-Men.

Lardy, I agree about this is where the creators really begin paving new ground for the series after doing a little of that with Proteus. Great point.

And I never knew that about Kitty basically being a fully-formed idea that Byrne was pitching to Claremont. It's exactly the kind of impact Byrne was making in Marvel at this time in general that has always been referred to by other creators, editors and colleagues. Once Claremont took her on, it's clear he developed a fast understanding and love of the character.

Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #802066 02/24/14 02:50 PM
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And we might as well keep things moving…

Uncanny X-Men #132-135

The next three issues bring the X-Men into the Hellfire Club proper storyline in which we get to see the full villainy and vicsciousness of the Hellfire Club in all of its glory. And boy do we ever—each of the three issues are jam-packed and I immediately can’t wait to see more of the Hellfire Club, which I suspect was similarly felt by fans reading it off the racks. That must be because for comic book superheroes, the Hellfire Club is simply a whole different animal than anything else superheroes has fought before. It’s been oft-copied since by various creators and companies (to where almost every franchise has its own version these days) but it was incredibly ground-breaking at the time. We’ve touched on a lot of the elements, but its worth again stating how powerful the personality of Sebastian Shaw is, and how interesting Harry Leland and Donald Pierce are as well, especially Leland revealing his powers are the same as Star Boy (the only other person I can remember who shares those powers) and Pierce is a cyborg. The last bit with Pierce is further interesting when he reveals he’s a mutant hating bigot, which will set him apart and allow for him to have a much more interesting future than just another Hellfire Club member.

Jason Wyngarde—and I almost wrote Mastermind, but like Lardy says, he’s much more than that now—is equally as interesting. His total dominance of Jean is infuriating but he always remains a very human enemy. He immediately begins considering how to usurp Shaw, and that ultimately leads to the undoing of the entire plot.

But backing up a bit, what makes the story work, as previously stated, is that while Jean is tranformed into the Black Queen and ultimately at the end of this “arc” into Dark Phoenix, the story is grounded in the romance between Scott and Jean. Despite Jason’s seduction, this story contains the single most romantic moment Scott and Jean ever had up until this point in their history, atop of the Mesa in New Mexico. When she holds back Scott’s eye beams telekinetcially so she can look into his eyes, it underscores how well she truly knows him, by hitting on a point that the readers know about Scott, which is the tragedy he’s always been burdened with. It’s a beautiful moment.

Which makes her seduction all the more infuriating and then makes me cheer for Wyngarde to get his comeuppance all the more when it happens. Byrne does a great job showing Wyngarde’s decent into madness by focusing closely on his eyes.

This story is also one of the single most important in regards to the rise of Wolverine in the eyes of fandom. The final panel of Wolverine in the sewers is legendary (and was awaesomely spoofed in Atomic Robo a few years ago), and his subsequent brutal ass-kicking of the Hellfire guards as he carves them into pieces is enthralling. Again—this hadn’t been done before much in comics. This moment pretty much made Wolverine the star he became, and we’d get numerous other bits to try and recapture this magic (many of which would also succeed, like Wolverine’s issue in the Brood Saga). One of my favorite moments is when Cyclops asks Wolverine “Where’s Leland?” and he simply replies “Don’t ask”. It’s classic Wolverine before it became classic (and before it became so copied it was no longer effectual).

Byrne’s love of the original X-Men shines through again by including the Angel and Beast as much as he can. I can’t help but feel this is always his influence, which is exempflied by how often he had Angel and Iceman show up all over the Marvel Universe. We also see Candy Southern, who had been around for over a decade, show up. What’s notable is she is SMOKING HOT. I mean, WHOA! It’s cool they were an item so long in comics without anything screwing that up…until she was casually killed off in the early issues of X-Factor.

Candy’s hottness is just one of many ‘sexy’ things going on in this story line. Jean’s gown is obviously a later inspriation for Marc Silvestri’s Goblin Queen costume for Madelyne Prior, which may have just single handedly turend me from a boy into a man when I was 11 years old.

Beyond all the up front plot elements there’s always so much else going on. We get the introduction of Senator Robert Kelly, a very important character to come, and also set the stages for anti-mutant hysteria becoming highly important to the series again with the X-Men trashing the Hellfire Club party. All the various members shine in the big battle with the Hellfire Club but despite the X-Men winning, the real damage is done and the march to Dark Phoenix explodes.

Again, hard to say great things here that haven’t been said already. It’s a masterpiece of a story and this is a meaty part of it.

Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Cobalt Kid #802068 02/24/14 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
You know, I know all of those things about Salicrup but I've never had someone lay them all out like that before. Certainly sounds like he was one of those notorious editors that Marvel and DC always have that does more damage than good when he takes over a series. Really unfortunate. Luckily he didn't do too much damage with X-Men.


I'm not so sure he didn't do major damage to the X-Men. As much as I love this saga, I have major issues with some things about it, and, after doing a lot of research, I think Salicrup is squarely to blame. I can't really go further without spoiling events that happen in the next three issues, so I guess I'll wait til we get to them.

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
And I never knew that about Kitty basically being a fully-formed idea that Byrne was pitching to Claremont. It's exactly the kind of impact Byrne was making in Marvel at this time in general that has always been referred to by other creators, editors and colleagues. Once Claremont took her on, it's clear he developed a fast understanding and love of the character.


In the short-term, yes. In the long term, she might have been as damaged by Claremont as Storm and Psylocke eventually were, if she hadn't been moved over to Excalibur. Again, I'm getting way too far ahead of myself, but I felt it worth mentioning.


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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #802083 02/24/14 09:24 PM
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Uncanny X-Men 132-134

(Based on your last review, Cobie, I think this may have been the range you read as well....and not thru 135 as stated.)

And so we get to the second third of the larger Dark Phoenix Saga storyline in which the X-Men take a proactive stance and decide to infiltrate the Hellfire Club mansion during one of its big soirees, rather than be sitting ducks for the HF's next attack. I like the idea for this, especially doing so immediately on the heels of the previous trilogy of issues and their being attacked. Of course, things go sideways very quickly as they are discovered immediately and Wyngarde unleashes the Black Queen as his trump card.

Nostalgia abounded for me in the opening chapter with two bygone elements that came with the return of Angel: the aforementioned Candy Southern and his Arizona home, the Aerie. Just further evidence of how the X-Men were much less insular back in the day. I particularly recall Candy still being with Warren and the Aerie being Defenders HQ during the "New Defenders" era that closed out the long-running Defenders title, which featured Angel, Beast and Ice Man as its nucleus.

But I especially enjoyed how that remote location allowed for that great scene between Scott and Jean on the butte in the middle of nowhere and for the flashback to it that we see in the following issue. I remember being a teenager and thinking it was a very intimate scene and still feel about the same way. I like how it's so sexy without being at all gratuitous. As such, it's easily more memorable than 99% of such scenes that show and tell more since then. We know that Jean and Scott totally had sex up there, but it's only ever implied. I like, though, that in the flashback scene where the establishment of the psychic rapport is shown, Scott and Jean are only shown from around the shoulders up, and there's not a thread of clothing evident from what little we see. And what she did to temporarily cure Scott's eyes was just an amazing moment. I've forgotten or half-remembered a lot of things from the era, but those scenes on the butte, I'll never forget.

As Cobie mentions, the scenes that showcase Wolverine are simply iconic. So much of what Claremont and Byrne were doing with the character were so groundbreaking. What's more impressive to me is that after all these years and all the jadedness toward the character I've built up since, I still find these scenes awesome and love how they reminded me of what used to be so special about the character. It also doesn't hurt at all that I think Byrne draws one of the very best Wolverines that any artist has ever depicted! The mannerisms, that sly, devilish smile and so much more--honestly, I can think of few others who do a better job, if any. Byrne's Wolverine and how much I'm enamored of it are some of the genuine surprises for me to rediscover in this re-read so far. No lie! I'm already starting to miss Byrne knowing there are very few stories left (but what GREAT stories still remain!).....

When Wolverine was apparently shot, I fully expected him to rise and reference his healing factor, but he was apparently really fearful of being killed by the blast and managed to dodge it. Given what we later learned of his healing factor, it's a safe bet that Claremont hadn't yet conceived of the ability at least to the extent that we came to know it. Wolverine's life being endangered by gunfire seems laughable these days. I kind of miss his more vulnerable days (as more than a gimmick, at least, as is the case with what I've heard of him recently losing his healing factor).

Jean as the Black Queen is pretty vicious! At no point not more so than when she abuses Storm, whom she visualizes as a slave.

This reminds me of the artistic choice in 134 on the second page where Byrne shows Peter, Scott, Ororo and Kurt in the same poses in three successive panels as they actually are, then as they normally look and finally as Jean sees them in her delusion. I love little touches like that. Byrne did something similar in the aftermath of the battle in Chicago when he segues from the finished battle to their regrouping at Kitty's house. I meant to mention that for after I read it, but Byrne delighted me again and reminded me of it. Here, though, it's a close shot, when it was a wide shot in the previous example, so Byrne isn't merely repeating himself.

One thing I'd forgotten was that Emma Frost was absent/missing/presumed dead during this portion of the arc. Apparently, even Shaw and the others hadn't been informed of her survival at this point. But her absence allows for us to see more of Shaw, Leland and Pierce. It's interesting that the Inner Circle's one non-mutant member is terribly bigoted toward mutants.

I suppose it would have been interesting to see how/if the X-Men would have prevailed if Jean hadn't overcome Wyngarde's brainwashing. This coincided with Wolverine's arrival, so we'll never know if Wolverine's rescue would have been successful. Presumably, he would've been outmatched, especially if Jean remained under the influence.

So a series of dominoes falls as Wyngarde goes too far, attempting to kill Scott on the psychic plane. In her rage she takes revenge on Wyngarde and loosens her self-imposed restraints on her power. And we are left with an ominous cliffhanger. Jean is suddenly in red and suddenly turns on her fellow X-Men as they flee the scene of the Hellfire Club....and Dark Phoenix is born! To be continued, indeed!




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Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Lard Lad #802095 02/25/14 10:07 AM
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^ You are indeed correct sir, I meant 132-134, so that must have been a typo.

Fanfie, I'm interested in your comments regarding Kitty as we move forward. I think I can kind of see where you're going with it. In a way, Nightcrawler and Shadowcat moving to Excalibur was the best thing that could happen in terms of preserving "the innate fun" of both characters since the main X-titles--like so much else in comic books in the late 80's--grew increasingly dark for all involved.

Lardy, great comment on Byrne's artistic choices with the panel structures. When I reread, I noticed both instances too and was blown away by them, so when you mentioned them I immediately knew what you were talking about. It all just reminds me of what a major influence Byrne was. He's certainly a contender for single most important and best creator of the entire 1980's. Perhaps far down the road we can reread his Fantastic Four run too.

And I also have to echo your comments on Wolverine. Reading the Wolverine that made people love him is just so damn enjoyable. All of that nonsense is still so far off, and its nice to just sit back and watch a truly great character continue to grow.

Re: Re-Reads (Now discussing: Claremont's X-Men!)
Cobalt Kid #802115 02/25/14 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Lardy, great comment on Byrne's artistic choices with the panel structures. When I reread, I noticed both instances too and was blown away by them, so when you mentioned them I immediately knew what you were talking about. It all just reminds me of what a major influence Byrne was. He's certainly a contender for single most important and best creator of the entire 1980's.


Oh, he most definitely is! Hard to argue with all the significant things he did that decade.

How do you feel about his depiction of Wolverine? Do you feel similarly to me or are there a lot of artists above Byrne with Wolverine in your mind?


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