Legion World Forums LEGION OUTPOST Bits o' Legionnaire Business An alternate X-Men timeline

This is something that's been going through my head recently, thanks to the ongoing X-Men re-read in the Gymll's forum. What if Dark Phoenix did NOT commit murder? How would the subsequent stories have been different? What I'm going to do for the time being is summaries of the imaginary Uncanny X-Men issues, a few at a time. If there's enough good feedback, I'll start doing vignettes focusing on specific alternate-timeline events.

UNCANNY X-MEN 135: Transformed into Dark Phoenix, Jean Grey defeats her former teammates, the X-Men, in battle and flies off into outer space, specifically Shi'ar Empire territory. Oracle, the Shi'ar Imperial Guard's super-telepath (and Saturn Girl analog) detects Dark Phoenix's approach, and the entire Imperial Guard flies in a battle cruiser towards a possible face-off. The Imperial Guard stops Phoenix from consuming a star and engages her in battle, but even Gladiator (the Superman analog) is out-matched, until Oracle's psi-powers get through to what's left of Jean Grey within Dark Phoenix. Horrified by what she has become, Jean turns and heads back for Earth. The X-Men, still recovering from their battle, are contacted by Shi'ar Empress Lilandra, Professor Xavier's lover, and warned that Phoenix is returning to Earth. But then days pass and Phoenix never seems to arrive. The X-Men's Cerebro computer fails to detect Phoenix anywhere on Earth and, frustrated, Lilandra sends the Imperial Guard to Earth, where their superior alien technology finally tracks down Phoenix -- hiding out with her parents and sister in the suburbs. The Imperial Guard rashly attack her, and she seemingly once again becomes Dark Phoenix.

136: As the Imperial Guard stick out on Earth like a sore thumb, it takes little time for the X-Men and the Avengers to arrive at the scene of the battle. The Avengers protect the innocent civilians while the X-Men try to stop the fighting. In the end, the combined powers of Oracle and Professor X stop Phoenix, but they've done too thorough a job -- Jean has completely retreated into herself, and will seemingly live out the rest of her life this way.

137: Oracle and Professor X combine their powers once more, in order to send Cyclops, Jean's one true love, into her mind so that he can talk her back into consciousness. We revisit Cyclops' and Jean's entire lives up to this point, and, finally, Jean is saved. The Imperial Guard leave Earth, but warn the X-Men that they'll be watching Jean, should she ever lose control again. Meanwhile, the destruction in the suburbs, along with the scene at the Hellfire Club a few issues ago, has inflamed anti-mutant sentiment, and Mystique's new Brotherhood of Mutants is poised to deliver a show of force by assassinating mutant-fearing politician Robert Kelly. TO BE CONTINUED

I seem to remember there being articles concerning what would have happened had Jean not died. Something else else about being trapped on Magneto's island with Scott and refusing Magneto's offer to regain her power.

The exact wording I remember, which filled me with annoyance at whoever said it was (paraphrasing, 'cause this was many years ago) 'The intention was that she would lose her powers and become Scott's wife, about as important to the story as the left rear wheel of the Blackbird. Sometime around issue 200, Magneto would kill her, which would really up his importance, as he'd finally killed one of them.'

About the only thing I'd want to tweak if she survived was that she A) lose her powers and yet remain a vitally important part of the group, a non-mutant, living Xavier's dream of mutants and humans co-existing (along with other non-mutant characters, like Moira McTaggart), or B) keep her powers at a less cosmic 'planet-eating' level, and remain the X-Men's 'heavy hitter.'

But, given the options of her either being depowered and mostly ignored, before being ganked by Magneto to fluff his importance, or being killed and then resurrected for that crappy X-Factor run, I think I'd rather she have died in a heroic sacrifice, and *stayed dead.*

Yes, that was indeed the original plan for Uncanny X-Men 150.

I have other ideas.

I choose B. And I have other plans for Magneto. Not that Jean won't be tempted, but who will be behind it? Stay tuned.

138-139: In an act of desperation, Rachel Summers, Jean and Scott's teenage daughter from the grim post-apocalyptic future, projects her own consciousness across time and into her mother's body, where she convinces the X-Men that they must stop the Brotherhood's assassination plan. The X-Men succeed.

Oh, Jean instead of Kitty in that 'Days of Future Past' role is inspired. Very cool!

I like this. Rachel's genetic and Phoenix links make this a nice change. It's simpler in a good way.

Going from my memory cell, but was the reason Kitty was chosen because her past self hadn't gone through the defensive training from Xavier yet?

Thanks a lot, guys. Much appreciated.

Thothkins, I haven't quite gotten to Days of Future Past in the re-read yet, but when I do I'll have the answer to your question.

I really have to check into that thread. I could copy and paste the above question for a start

That would be great. To paraphrase the familiar saying, the more people post in the re-read thread, the merrier.

Fanfie, I'm enjoying you posting these. I was going to post further in the Re-Reads thread but I realize my comments are more appropriate here. Mainly, I was going to say I have a hard time imagining what would have happened had Dark Phoenix turned out differently...mainly because it didn't. For me, the story that was published is the story and the history, and sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around a "what if...?" alternative.

Neil Gaiman once said in an interview, one of the tragedies of writing is that as you move forward, every time you make a decision, you're killing thousands of other potential ideas because the story is now progressing past where those ideas could be implemented. It's an interesting way to look at things. As they move forward, a lot of potential is lost, while other new potential stories open up.

Which is to say, while *I* don't really think in terms of 'what if...?', I find it kind of fun that you're doing so. So I'm interested to see what you come up with!

Certainly, Round 2 with the Hellfire Club will take a whole new feel. Emma surely will want revenge...so perhaps its Jean, not Storm who she switches bodies with? There's a lot to play with here.

Thanks, Cobie. It means a lot to me that you're enjoying this in spite of your skepticism towards "What If?" scenarios.

I am currently working on how Emma might carry out her revenge in this timeline, but first...

140-142: Magneto teams with the villainous Inhuman Maximus in an attempt to conquer Attilan and turn it into a haven for mutants and Inhumans alike. I'd use the concept introduced by DnA a few years ago that Attilan can turn into a giant flying fortress. Of course, the partnership doesn't work out, and the plan becomes undone, thanks to the efforts of the X-Men, the Inhuman Royal Family, and Quicksilver.

I'm enjoying reading your ideas for an alternate X-Men timeline, Fanfie! I'm also enjoying reading the discussions that naturally follow.




I like option B But A is a good alternative too, especially compared to the "original plan". I agree with Set, better for her to have died a hero than be depowered than eventually killed by Magneto to make him seem more threatening.

Thanks, Ibby. I agree that option A is almost as good an alternative as option B, but what tips it for me is the idea of the team's heavy-hitter being a woman -- that's too awesome for words.

Magneto and Maximux teaming up seems kind of brilliant.

Magneto's 'Savage Land Mutates' having something to do with the Kree technology left behind in the Savage Land (which Inhumans would be best able to make use of, being Kree-descended, at least to some degree) could add the Savage World as a background for the inevitable confrontation between Mags & 'Mad Max' and our X-peeps.

If Jean is indeed poised to become a 'heavy hitter,' Maximus' psychic powers and technology also offer a valid reason why Jean's telepathy won't rule the day (as telepathic attacks and mind control tend to be anti-climactic in the hands of good guys, as they just point and foes fall over or switch sides...), but instead require her to do the heavy lifting with her telekinetic powers, which is far more visually dynamic and impressive.

If the various Inhumans who side with Maximus are expelled and end up taking refuge in the Savage Land, that could create an interesting secondary Inhuman society on Earth. Falcona, in particular, seems likely to end up being more powerful than expected, as her Terrigenetic ability to control birds of prey could extend (or be enhanced) to affect the closest prehistoric relatives to birds of prey, the various 'raptor' class dinosaurs, including velociraptors and T-rexes! (Others like Aireo, Stallior, Timberius, Seeker and Leonus would also make for a visually exciting team to go alongside Magneto's Brotherhood / Savage Land Mutate allies, creating an overwhelming battle scene similar to that of the X-Men vs. Imperial Guard on the Blue Area of the Moon.)

Thank you, Set. I love all your suggestions, especially the one about Falcona controlling dinosaurs.

143-145: The Hellfire Club strikes back, minus Emma Frost, who is still recovering from her injuries at the hands of Phoenix and pursuing her own revenge agenda. This time, the Hellfire Club's secret weapon is their new Black Queen, the black witch Selene. (I know this is much earlier than Selene appeared in mainstream continuity, but I feel I don't necessarily have to play by all the rules with this alternate timeline.) The Hellfire Club is defeated thanks to reinforcements in the form of Polaris, Havok, Banshee, Madrox, and Iceman. In the epilogue, Banshee meets Siryn, the daughter he never knew he had until now.

146-148: The X-Men re-team with Alpha Flight when the Enchantress and the Executioner lure Thor into an ambush by the Great Beasts of the Canadian North.

149-150: Phoenix is tempted by ultimate power once again, thanks to the manipulations of the Shi'ar renegade Deathbird, who wants her as her weapon against her sister, the Empress Lilandra. The X-Men's new friend, Carol Danvers, who has faced Deathbird before, helps them win the day.

Love the appearance of old X-Men and allies as reinforcements, and the introduction of Siryn. Carol! Polaris! Madrox! Alpha Flight! These are looking good, Fanfie!

Deathbird, in her brief appearance during Jim Lee's run (allied with Bishop?) really intrigued me. She seemed pretty one-dimensional back in the old Ms. Marvel comic, but she really got some depth, and her tied into the Phoenix-force / X-Men / Lilandra situation sounds awesome.

Also, big fan of the Great Beasts. I always wanted a younger evil mystic sort, like the Young Masters 'Enchantress,' Sylvie, to cast spells that tapped into the power of the Great Beasts 'Maze of Somon,' 'Flames of Tolomaq,' etc. or various other baddies, like D'Spayr, Nightmare, Cthon, Zarathos, Surtr, Set, etc. Other than Dr. Strange, other Marvel magic-users seem to just point and shoot, and not invoke any of the uber-cool mystical / cosmic entities crawling around the Marvel universe.

Thanks, guys.

Deathbird allied with Bishop was towards the end of the Scott Lobdell/Joe Madureira run. Deathbird during the Jim Lee era was, in my opinion, undermined by Lila Cheney's unfunny quip, "Here we are, two babes with big guns."

Ah, good old Lila Cheney. An entire Dyson Sphere, lying around abandoned for her to use as a getaway pad. Yeesh. An interior surface area 550 million times that of Earth? I wonder how many bathrooms it has?

One. That's why everyone left for the Porta-a-John Planetoid.

Now, having said that, I'll probably still have Lila Cheney in this timeline, if only so we can have Guido Carosella in this timeline. I love the big lug.

151: Lilandra publicly executes Deathbird for treason. Charles is horrified and begins to reconsider their relationship. Meanwhile, Storm begins taking an interest in the occult and takes on a witch named Barbara Beswicke as her new mentor, while Logan receives a letter than unsettles him, and Nightcrawler finishes tracing his roots, discovering that Margali Szardos is his mother and Mystique is his FATHER! (The latter is actually not a million miles from Claremont's original plans. He wanted Mystique to be the father and Destiny to be the mother.)

152-154: Scott and Jean discuss marriage. Russia sends all of its own superheroes on a mission to retrieve Colossus. Wolverine turns out to have a now-adolescent half-Canadian/half-Japanese son who is following in his dubious footsteps.

155-158: Emma Frost hires the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants to destroy the X-Men. The plan is for Mystique to pose alternately as Jean, Scott, and Logan, and undermine the precarious dynamics of this relationship triangle, then when the X-Men's team spirit is frayed, the villains will all strike at once. The plan almost works, except for Mystique being unable to kill her son, Nightcrawler.

159-160: Barbara Beswicke turns out to be Umar in disguise, working for her brother Dormammu, who desires the hand of Storm. Kitty and Storm's love for each other saves the day.

Is the son Daken or someone younger readers like myself would not know about?

It's Daken. I've long found him an intriguing concept, and it all crystallized for me when Peebs recently said in the Re-Reads thread that Daken would look better in the yellow spandex than Dear Old Dad. That made perfect sense to me.

Oh, that's a neat twist on the Alpha Flight / Wolverine storyline, and a fun way to put Darkstar, Vanguard, Ursa Major, etc. on the X-radar!

Thank you, Set.

161-167: The Kree capture the X-Men's friend Carol Danvers and, under the supervision of Dr. Minerva, brainwash her and turn her into Binary, intending to use her as the linchpin of their quintuple team of heavy-hitters, the Fatal Force, in a war against the Shi'ar and their Imperial Guard. The X-Men, in trying to save Carol, are caught in the crossfire, but ultimately prevail, with a little help from the Starjammers, whose leader, Corsair, reveals to Scott that he is his father. Scott is not pleased. Carol, still possessing the full Binary power-set, joins the Starjammers.

CROSSFIRE: 168-175

Cyclops - Dealing with the revelation that Corsair is his father, getting cold feet about marriage.
Phoenix - Wants desperately to marry and settle down.
Wolverine - Dealing with the revelation that he has a delinquent teenage bastard son.
Storm - Still shaken from her manipulations by Dormammu and Umar.
Nightcrawler - Struggling to maintain his religious faith in the wake of his recent experiences.
Colossus - Unsure of his place in the world.
Shadowcat - Learning to stand on her own. Falling in love with Colossus.
Professor X - Heartbroken over Lilandra’s newfound ruthlessness.

The X-Men are attacked by the newest incarnation of the Brotherhood of Mutants, now consisting of Magneto, Pyro, Blob, Unus, Avalanche, and Rogue (Mystique and Destiny were ousted after Mystique’s loss of nerve during the last battle, and Rogue took the male members’ side against her adoptive mothers.) But the two opposing teams must work together after Emma Frost uses time-travel tech to bring forth a team of paramilitary mutant rebels from an alternate future who live only to terrorize humanity: the Mutant Liberation Front -- Cable (an alternate-future son of Phoenix and Wolverine), Powerhouse (Franklin Richards), Dazzler, Domino, Deadpool, Bishop, and Psylocke.

In the aftermath, the X-Men disperse, with Cyclops and Phoenix quitting the team to marry and settle down, Nightcrawler and Colossus joining Moira on Muir Isle, Storm returning to Africa, and Wolverine, Shadowcat and Professor X left to form a new team; the Brotherhood splits in half, with Magneto, Rogue, and Unus desiring redemption, while Pyro, Blob, and Avalanche decide to remain outlaws; Emma Frost is outed as a mutant and arrested for crimes against humanity, while the MLF are stuck in this timeline and left floundering without a leader (Wolverine killed Cable).

When Scott and Jean marry, all their former teammates are reunited one last time.

LONG LIVE ROCK AND ROLL: 176-182

Rogue joins the X-Men, as does Unus’ 19-year old daughter Carmella, who takes on the codename Armor. The X-Men’s ranks are filled out by Madrox the Multiple Man and Banshee II (formerly Siryn), who leave Muir Island for Westchester, and a brand new recruit, Cannonball.

In the new team’s first adventure, a concert by Madrox’s favorite rock star, Lila Cheney, turns into a dimension-hopping adventure when Lila turns out to be a mutant on the run from inter-dimensional police. Although Madrox lusts for Lila, it’s Cannonball who she develops an attraction to, but Cannonball turns her down; Lila’s bodyguard Guido takes pity on Madrox and they form the beginnings of a friendship, which leads to Guido convincing Lila to let Madrox join her road crew. The X-Men are left short one member.

CONTINUED...

Interesting lineup. Hi and bye, Madrox. I love SIryn joining the team, and Armor is interesting.

Thanks, Ibby. Yeah, I've always liked Unuscione and felt disappointed that she got shunted off to the sidelines while a younger mutant with the same powerset as her got all the attention. Calling her Armor was my way of rectifying this.

Siryn's a favorite of mine, and Madrox will reappear eventually.

Ooh, Unuscione! One of my all time favorites mutants-I'll-never-see-again!

Along with Frenzy (who has gotten a decent run, actually), Sabra and Scaleface.

These days with Marvel, you never know who may or may not show up. That said, with Unuscione's powerset already taken by Armor, I'm not holding my breath.

I can sort of understand why Mike Carey chose to focus on Frenzy instead of Unuscione, as Frenzy has much more offensive powers.

Sabra continues to await a writer who really cares about her. I was surprised and disappointed that Peter David, of all people, used her so indifferently in Hulk back in the early 90s.

It does bug me when that 'we can only have one mutant with power X' mindset takes hold.

We've had an array of force field ladies, from Skids to Cecelia Reyes to Unuscione to Armor, and I liked Cecelia and Unuscione more than the other two. Sue Richards could open a school entirely for abandoned force-field-characters! (And Radius, from one of the failed Alpha Flight relaunches, also purportedly a child of Unus the Untouchable, could be the token mutant force-field dude.)

Same with time travel gals, from Ilyanna and Rachel (who *could* time travel, but rarely did), to Sway to Kiden Nixon to Tempo to Lacuna to this new Tempus character. (And I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting one...)

And, of course, precognitives or astral projectors or healers. Preview vanishes mysteriously and Blindfold steps in and takes her place, same with Scanner and Trance, or Elixir and Triage.

Meanwhile, staples of psi fiction like clairvoyance or anti-psi/psi-nulls seem to be overlooked, over telepath/telekinetic number 61293.

I hear you, Set. There's room for everybody.

I have no interest in Radius, though. Carmella should be an only child IMO.

And I love Blindfold, I think she's Joss Whedon's greatest contribution to the X-mythos.

Finally ready to bring some closure to "Phase One" of this thread.

I can now admit that almost all my ideas for padding out issues 183 through 199 were either too derivative of X-Men canon, or just plain blah. Hence the thread stalling for almost 4 years.

But from the very start, I wanted 200 to be a big event worthy of an anniversary issue (and, let's face it, the canon issue 200, Magneto's trial, was pretty lame, with crap-tacular art by John Romita, Jr adding insult to injury.)

So...we've established that Jean & Scott decided to get married and assimilate into human society, about two dozen issues (chronologically a little less than one year) ago.

200 would dramatically intercut Jean's complicated delivery of baby Rachel with the death of Magneto, railroaded by the Hellfire Club into returning to villainy, so as to liberate Emma Frost, whose trial verdict has already been bought and paid for by the evil human politicians. During the battle, Xavier is publicly outed like Emma was, and he must go into hiding. This will leave *Wolverine* in charge of the X-Men, a role he's very reluctant to take on as it would require him to finally become mature and responsible. Even more ominously, the time-lost MLF mutants have rallied behind a new leader -- *Daken.* AND they have a mole in the X-Men (not Carmella, that'd be too obvious.)

If Set or Ibby or Thoth or Harbi or anyone else wants to take over this timeline from here on, they're more than welcome to.

Meanwhile, I've been playing around with the notion of seeing what I might have done if I'd been in Chris Claremont's place, way back when Len Wein decided he was too busy to stay on UXM after writing Giant-Size #1.

I don't know when I'll get to it (among other things, I also have to move my Tasmia-As-Darkseid's-Lieutenant thread forward ASAP.) But hopefully sooner rather than later.

Stay tuned.

My only AU thought on the X folk lately has been what the Marvel Universe would be like if Wanda had blamed Magneto for the grief she'd gone through in her life and said 'No More Magneto!' and made him disappear. Her power had been previously established as being retroactive, which means he'd never have been Magneto, and most likely died as a child, during the Holocaust. Wanda herself, and Pietro, and Lorna, would cease to exist, which would lead to all sorts of changes.

Who would be the Brotherhood without them? Unus, Mastermind, Toad and who? Sabertooth? Vanisher? Mesmero? One of the Resistants / Mutant Force mutants? Mystique?

Who would make up 'Cap's Kooky Quartet?' Cap and Hawkeye, obviously, but perhaps two other mutants, or even a couple of Inhumans (like Crystal and Triton) instead? Maybe some future Avengers like the Black Widow and Black Knight or Falcon could join early.

How would Vision develop as a character without the humanizing relationship with Wanda? Would he eventually go bad and become the threat he was created to be?

How would the Young Avengers look without Billy and Tommy as members? Teddy, in particular, might be a very different person without Billy by his side.

That's all very intriguing, Set...but I'd rather see you putting your creative energies into writing a DCU Crime Syndicate fic.

Man, I wish I had time to put in the effort to continue this because I love what you've done with it so far Ann and it has definitely sparked some ideas!

I feel like Banshee, Siryn, Black Tom and Juggernaut's relationships never really get much spotlight in the comics so it'd be fun to look at that...Jamie Madrox becoming more of a core character opens up a lot of possibilities, getting the New Mutants involved in different ways and doing more with the Morlocks...there's a whole lot of potential to work with in different ways than Claremont had happen

Thank you for the kind words, Raz!

Perhaps you might possibly schedule some time later this year?

I will see what I can do...I am hoping I can get my own webcomic off the ground soonish so I'm a bit preoccupied with that at the moment, but the idea is very tempting!

I reckon it would be fun writing something with such a different setting and style to the Legion, and I was honestly way more of a Marvel zombie growing up so if I can get some long-term ideas percolating I might just throw my hat in the ring!

Cool!

I'm a one-time Marvel Zombie myself! And from reading some of your posts, I get the impression we're both fans of more-or-less the same era of Marvel, circa '88-'93? I call it "The Gilded Age." Someday, I hope to write an essay for the Gy'mll's forum explaining what exactly I mean by that.

Best of luck with the webcomic!

There was a time when Chris Claremont was going to lift Alan Moore’s run on Captain Britain and use it as the main plot for the Uncanny X-Men for a few years.

It would have involved the rise of another James Jaspers along with the rising anti-mutant hysteria and end up with the team going through the siege perilous.

After Moore took issue with not getting paid for reprints of some of his earlier work, the plot shelved with Claremont reworking it.

As published, it involved Magneto taking Xavier’s place, the fight against the Hellfire Club and Nimrod, the Mutant Massacre, the new line up and the start of Excalibur.

There’s a CBR legends article with a further link out there for more details. While it’s covered in some detail, I’ve toyed with doing it issue by issue.

One thing is whether to combine it with what was going on in Moore’s stories, so you’d be seeing a parallel plot in X-Men. Or to adapt what Claremont’s plans would have been and go from there.

Interestingly, Moore jettisoned an early plot point that linked his story into a wider Marvel one. It might be interesting to see how that would have worked out too.

Apart from some Avengers franchise adventures, the Marvel RPG campaign we run when I was younger was the MX series, detailing the takeover of the Sentinels. That corresponds to the Days of Future Past and runs through Claremont’s plot of ant-mutant hysteria above.

Claremont and Davis were really the only Marvel writers for ages who treated Captain Britain as a flawed but 3-dimensional character so it would have been cool to see the X-Men interact more with Marvel's UK stuff!

And Ann, yes - New Mutants, original West Coast Avengers and that era Avengers are my jam

Ah, the X-Men of the John Romita Junior era!

Nimrod looked like a giant piece of that chalky candy that they make Valentine hearts out of. In a word, stupid.

The Mutant Massacre had a disturbing scene where Colossus kills one of the Marauders, or whatever that lot was call and it *never got any follow up.*

Yuk.

On a brighter note...

New Mutants had a lot of stuff that I really loved -- the Sienkiewicz era, the Asgardian Wars, the Alan Davis-drawn Annual where they battle Mojo (and given the horrendous fates of several former Disney and Nickelodeon TV stars, more relevant today than ever.) I even like a lot of the Weezie Simonson NM run, especially the Inferno tie-ins (though I wish they'd been drawn by someone better than Bret Blevins,) and the issue soon after that with John Byrne as guest artist, where Magneto walks out on the kids once and for all (I've never liked any writer's efforts to turn him into a full-fledged hero -- I think he has too much to answer for.)

And, Thoth, I say *go for it.* I've seen you do so much cool alternate stuff with the DCU, I'd love to see what you'd do with the MU.

Bret Blevins is definitely an acquired taste....I don't know how true it is, but I remember hearing the only reason they killed Cypher off was that Blevins found him boring to draw as he didn't have a visual power - which, if true, is disappointing because I think what made Doug such an interesting character was precisely that his power wasn't flashy or violent and he was such a normal kid in a strange world. But anyway *shrugs*

um in other news, my inner fanboy may have gotten the better of me; I sat down this weekend just gone and did an issue breakdown right up to #250 hahaha...if Thoth or anybody else hasn't gotten first dibs yet, I'd be happy to give this a shot! I would be writing it in story format like my Legion fic, with each instalment being the next issue number. If you're happy to hand the reins over, I'll start writing #183 this week!

Hey, these alternate stories are great, and as i dont really know much of the Xmens history you could claim they are canon and I'd believe you my ex husband was a huge fan but i havent read anything of their adventures since we split - my one strong memory was being bored of Wolverine, thinking there were too many telepaths and wishing Storm would relax.

Sorry i dont have time or the knowledge to contribute but if you don't mind am very happy to continue reading and enjoying what you write. Looking forward to seeing what comes next.

More, more, more

C

What bugged me about Cypher wasn't Cyper at all, it was this his power, *and* Dani's power, *and* Shan's power, and various other characters powers (like astral projector's Trance and Scanner, or the Morlock Dreamer), was that all of their powers put together were a tiny subset of the abilities that came with the bargain basement 'mutant telepath' package, which was handed out *like candy* among the X-Peeps. Even if one didn't start out a telepath, like Jean Grey, apparently the Professor could just *teach* you to be able to;

1) send thoughts and read minds, actual *telepathy*
2) mind control people (Karma's whole power), sometimes even entire crowds or angry mobs of people (as Xavier would occasionally do, as when he shut a small town down while recruiting Nightcrawler)
3) make them see things that aren't there (Mastermind and Mirage's whole powers)
4) make them not see things that are there
5) translate all languages (Cypher's whole power)
6) astral project (Scanner and Trance's whole power)
7) teach anyone any skill or language instantly
8) absorb any skill or language instantly from someone else (Prodigy's whole power)
9) alter or delete or create new memories (the Morlock Dreamer's whole power)
10) possibly emotion control (Empath's whole power)
11) mental blasts / psychic screams that incapacitate others
12) psychic shields that that they can somehow project onto other people

Yeesh. Just once I wanted to see a starter 'telepath' who could read minds and send their thoughts, with a range about the same as someone can shout out loud. No extra free super-powers. He actually has to work for a living!

That's actually a bug I have with the X-Men in general. Their powers grow and grow. When was the last time Storm bothered to *control the weather?* All she does is fly and chuck lightning, and any idiot with a blaster and a jet-pack can contribute *that* to the fight. Makes me want to see a weather controller who *can't* chuck lightning or fly, and actually *has* to control weather.

Raz, you have more than my blessing to use this thread for your take on the X-Men -- you also have my gratitude and my encouragement!

Thoth, you can still post your take on the X-Men alongside Raz's. After I make this post, I'm going to retitle this thread to reflect its new status.

Harbi, thanks for the kind words. And I agree with you on Wolverine and Storm.

Set, yeah, I have to wonder just what Claremont was smoking during the latter part of his X-Men run. It truly spiraled from the sublime to the ridiculous, but especially in terms of migraine-inducingly vague powersets.

If they'd just stuck with Professor X and Jean (and I guess later, Rachel) being the only psis both powerful and well-trained enough to encompass all of the specific psi-talents it wouldn't bother me, but yeah with power creep it does get to the point where you've made it impossible to challenge your own characters. By the same token I much prefer a Wolverine who takes time to heal from injuries and can still be killed, an Iceman who isn't functionally immortal with the ability to summon an army of ice golems, a Storm who can't take on the Silver Surfer, etc etc...

In the odd moment, I've been peeking back at some of these issues.

If I read "abody" being "fit to burst" as they're using "the ultimate expression of their powers" again, I'm going to bamf.

Chris Claremont: Secretly a mutant with the code name Cut and Paste Man.

His editor should really have been gently telling Claremont that while it's nice to have favourite phrases, having every member of the cast say them probably isn't the best way of making them distinctive characters.

Oh, so many recycled lines!

"Welcome to the X-Men [random person], I hope you survive the experience!"

"Thanks, I think."

"The focused totality of my telepathic powers."

"Ah'm nearly invulnerable when ah'm blastin.'"

"and I wouldn't have it any other way!"

Ugh.

Still, it's sometimes fun to play with, such as when I made a Dream Girl/Psylocke mashup who wears a silver ninja-kini and uses a purple psionic whip she calls her 'Cassandra Coil, the focused totality of her precognitive powers' to overwhelm those struck with a senses-shattering barrage of visions of alternate futures.

We could give that sort of 'focused totality' thing to all sorts of mutants. Doug Ramsey smacking people with his Babel Strike, the focused totality of his omnilingual powers (rendering them aphasic and incapable of understanding or speaking clearly). Xian Coy Manh flinging her 'Ki Needles, the focused totality of her mind control abilities' at someone causing them to lose all control of their own body and mind, and collapse bonelessly to convulse on the ground (the quick and dirty version of mind control, requiring no concentration on her part, as she merely disrupts one's own control, without requiring the focus and distraction of imposing her own, making it better suited to a fast paced fight with lots of stuff going on).

hahaha I actually love the Claremontisms

For all that he has his particular phrases he likes to reuse (and the body horror/embracing the secret darkness within tropes that got way out of control later on), I think there aren't many mainstream comic writers who were so good at giving their characters a well-rounded background and personality. Nobody has ever been able to make Storm, Mystique or Spiral sound like themselves since he left Marvel (just off the top of my head)....and I think through most of his first run on the team he was good at giving his characters real flaws that actually impacted them as well; Wolverine as the impossible-to-kill battle god was something that only came along after Claremont left; there were times when a lot of characters came close to killing him who wouldn't stand a chance nowadays.

I think he was always generally pretty good at utilising the larger sandbox of the Marvel Universe as well...Spider-Man, Misty Knight, the Fantastic Four etc never felt like they were second-rate when they worked with the X-Men and when it made sense character-wise they were actually better at some things. A lot of writers aren't that good at letting their pet characters come second place even when it makes sense.

They can get on your wick when doing a reread of a lot of them. I couldn't wait for them to shut up sometimes.


I think that the body horror extends itself thematically through the core of the book. Claremont seems to be frequently keen to transform the team and concept, never mind the individual characters.

Base of Operations: The school fades away to an island base; deep space for many issues; San Francisco; Morlock tunnels and Australian outback with frequent trips to Muir Island. I read that Harras had wanted to get back to it being a school with Prof X. That was a very long time ago for Claremont stories. He'd gone out of his way to show the characters develop beyond that setting. Besides which, apart from a good spell at the mansion, earlier in his run, the original version of it managed to get cancelled.

Personnel: It changed with increasing frequency. Initially it was the likes of Angel returning, or Scott. But the additions of Rachel, Kitty, ROgue and MagnetoBut there was an overhaul at the time he was looking use Moore's story, and Psylocke, Havok, Dazzler and Longshot joined in short order. Then it was the Muir Island X-Men, then a shifting set of teams beyond.

Purpose: Xavier's dream of mutants and humans living together looks daft when you're behind the wall of an all mutants school. It's simply reinforcing the stereotype that somehow mutants aren't human. They became defenders of the Earth on a few occasions and then proactive agents of justice in their "Moore"/Australian days.




I don't really know anything about Claremont. I did read a quote suggesting that if he had ever written a character, he thought it was his to play with. I also read Claremont saying that he was happy to return cast members to their books, if they were wanted, and belonged there. The example being Misty Knight and Coleen Wing. I've no idea if there was another book being published with them, when Claremont was using them in X-Men. I get the impression he enjoyed using the ideas he had for characters he'd previously written, and in brining them into his X-Verse. I'm not sure that he saw huge distinctions between them if he could tell his story. A lot of plots combined both sets of characters anyway. Wing and Summers for example. Seems fine to me. I don't recall anyone being damaged and it's up to editorial to keep that side of things straight. I did read he rather pinched and broke Longshot though.




There are hints that Claremont had a *lot* of background information on the cast that rarely made it onto the page. On one hand it added depth to them, but could also lead to some fragmented storytelling. Beyond the usual planting of plot seeds, there's a lot of stories that go nowhere, have a disjointed arc or look to have been abandoned at various stages.

On a more positive note, a lot of those character issues, also dealt with transformative subjects, mirroring what was going on everywhere else in the book.

Wolverine: A man struggling between serious psychopathic issues and trying to control this through an idealised form of Bushido.
Rogue: Multiple personalities increasingly at odds within the same body.
Magneto: Transformed from stock villain into someone who has to reassess his actions and shape the dream of a former foe.
Nightcrawler: The romantic one who looks different. Convictions in a religion whose devil images look like he does. His is a moral transformation/ test.
Colossus: Ideological transformations were handled less than deftly early on.
Storm: Her form, function and powers change with the weather. Child thief; wind rider; storm goddess; dark storm; sorceress; vampire; unarmed combat champion...
Havok: Tries to contain a huge power and loses his life in pieces; his partner; his freedom from choice; killing and then sacrificing what was left in Dallas.
Dazzler: The one who saw nothing wrong with living a normal life with dreams. The backlash from that left her having to disguise herself, and live those dreams vicariously. Dazzler's actions helped to transform the wider society. Just not in the way she hoped.
Rachel: Looking to transform the timeline, only to find herself perhaps in the wrong one.

BUMP

Hey, all,

It took a few more years, but I'm ready to pick up where I left off, with Magneto dying at the same time that Rachel Summers is being born. I'm also going to fill in the gap between 182 and 200.

Stay tuned.

Looking forward to reading more.

Thanks for the encouragement, Thoth.

I've decided I'm going to fill in the gap before I move forward past 200.

Here's where we left off:

And here's where the roll call stands right now:

Wolverine (team leader)
Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde)
Rogue
Banshee 2 (Theresa Rourke Cassidy, daughter of Banshee 1, Sean Cassidy)
Cannonball (Sam Guthrie)
Armor (Carmella Unuscione, daughter of Unus the Untouchable)

LION HEARTLESS: 183-189

The X-Men combine business with pleasure by visiting their allies on Muir Isle (where Moira introduces them to her ward, a shy girl named Rahne Sinclair) while simultaneously working at rounding up the scattered members of the Mutant Liberation Front. This leads to a clash on the streets of London with none other than Captain Britain, whose sister Betsy Braddock is destined to become the MLF member Psylocke at some point in the future. When the smoke clears, Theresa stands revealed as the MLF mole, Rahne turns out to be a werewolf, and Betsy has killed her own future self.

So the X-Men now are Professor X, Wolvie, Kitty, Rogue, Unus's daughter, Siryn and Cannonball? That is a really interesting dynamic, I dig it!

Emma being outed as a villain so early in the piece is early as well, that changes a lot moving forward!

Thank you, Raz.

Regarding Emma, I neglected to mention before that she was outed through the efforts of Val Cooper and closeted mutant Raven "Mystique" Darkholme.

I reread the thread. I'd been thinking of the Moore plots a while ago, and had reread the issues while dusting off the notes.

So, Im a lot more familiar with the shifts in plot you've done here. It certainly adds to the enjoyment, and the work you've put in.

The line up is interesting. In rereads, the team had fewer core members thanId thought. You've shown the same thing. With such rich backgrounds, it's all too easy for many of them to find paths away from the team.

Kitty's early time with the team had her connected to Storm. But this changed to Wolverine as she found her own way, and her relationship with Colossus blossomed and faded. In this younger team, reminding me of New Mutants/ original students, that Kitty/ Wolvie one is more central. Good to see Theresa used more fully, as she really should have been.

Looking forward to more.

Thank you kindly, Thoth.

Regarding Theresa, I thought that certain parts of her background, being raised by supervillains, would make her the most logical choice to be the mole. And we haven't seen the last of her, there's still the question of whether the X-Men should keep her in their custody instead of turning her over to the authorities. Also, her father is devastated by what she has become.

Issue 190 will be a light-hearted, romantic change of pace, as Sam finally musters the courage to ask Rogue out on a date. It's coming along so well, I'm tempted to actually write it out as a full-length story.

Daughter of morally iffy secret agent and Factor 3 dupe, raised by villains.
Daughter of a villain who was a member of the brotherhood.
Adoptive daughter of a villainess who was a key part of the brotherhood.
I think Sam started off as the pawn of villains too.

Poor Kitty is left looking to reluctant leader Wolvie. I wonder what the Prof thinks of his latest team, so far removed from the original students.