Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

It goes back to something I said earlier in this thread: in my opinion, Banshee should have been the older guy who's seen it all, while Wolverine should have been younger. Instead, we ended up with two older guys in the team. Ah, well, at least Banshee exited the team in a classy way.

It's certainly possible that he offered that suggestion. However, the roundtable seemed pretty open and candid and that possibility for her as an alternate fate wasn't mentioned.



I don't think that just because Stern suggested Jean's fate shouldn't cast aspersions on his character. It's clear that your views are colored by what you feel was misogynistic treatment of Jean, but that doesn't mean Stern or anyone else had misogynistic leanings. I know Shooter gets that rep for what he did to Carol Danvers and to Janet Van Dyne. He may very well deserve that rep, especially for Carol. But some people found, and still find, the portrayal of spousal abuse with Hank and Jan to have been a brave and topical story to portray in a comic in its time. But Stern's overall record shows he believes in writing strong women, I feel.



You know, despite their stated original intent, Phoenix definitely comes off as something to be feared, even in her first appearance. I mean, there's more than one way to interpret her transformation in that issue, but her first words, "Hear me, X-Men! No longer am I the woman you knew! I am FIRE! And life incarnate! Now and forever----I AM PHOENIX!", can certainly come off as ominous. It certainly seems to portend the events as we know them to happen more than just the X-Men having their most powerful member to date.

I mean, there are a lot of "what ifs", but I find it hard to backtrack before 137 and wonder if she'd stopped herself from destroying the D'Bari or if she'd "only" destroyed a sun in an uninhabited system. I'm not trying to undermine your point of view, but it seems such a moot point compared to what exactly the nature of the Dark Phoenix was and lamenting how the story itself was undermined when Marvel brought her back.

I suppose one could argue that the resurrection undid any perceived misogyny about women with ultimate power and the feeling that they would have to die by effectively absolving her of any culpability whatsoever and undoing her self-inflicted suicide. Yay feminism?

I'm sorry. This isn't meant as an attack on you, Fickles. It isn't really about misogyny or feminism either. It's ultimately about my frustrations with Marvel and DC and how they manage to repeatedly undo their own great stories for the sake of maintaining their precious IP.

Lardy, I think the reason the Promethean punishment wasn't mentioned by the roundtable was because everyone involved either knew they'd risk their jobs by making Shooter look bad, or, in Shooter's own case, he was covering his ass; in addition to his reputation as a misogynist, he also has a reputation as someone who plays fast and loose with the facts.

Stern is probably not a misogynist, I agree, but it is dishearteaning to me that he saw no better option than her death.

Regarding your final point, I dislike the retcon-slash-resurrection as much as you do, and for the same reasons as the ones you've given. I do wish Jean hadn't died in the first place, but given that she did, I'd rather she have stayed dead in the core Marvel Universe reality. I don't think bringing her back proved anything positive or was beneficial in any way. Having said that, I am interested in exploring how things might have turned out if she hadn't been killed at all, which is why I started that alternate timeline thread in the Bits forum.

Uncanny X-Men 138

You know, this story certainly had its moments, but it could have been much better than the "story so far" clip show that it actually was. Framed around Jean's funeral, it was an excuse for Claremont and Byrne to take a breather and not actually have to create much.

I'm sure it didn't help that this probably wasn't what they had in mind for 138 following up on their original ending to 137. Or maybe it was pretty much? The Masterworks addition includes the drawn first page to what the issue was going to be. Byrne depicts Jean serenely kneeling beside a pond and dipping her fingers into it as Scott smiles in the background, holding her slippers. Maybe as he presides over her recovery, he reflects on the X-Men's history but with a more upbeat bent? Hard to say.

I suppose what I would have really wanted here was Scott reminiscing squarely on his and Jean's life together. I know the narration gives it that bent, but why not depict just the definitive events between them, plus some moments we'd never seen before? I think this is exactly what Claremont would have done later in his run when he had even more clout and confidence in his storytelling ability, but as is, a story called "Elegy" doesn't really serve its titular purpose very well.

But there are some moments worth seeing here. I particularly liked seeing Scott and Mr. Grey attempt to console one another. I also applauded how Scott refused to go back into his shell and cast away everything Jean had taught him about living life. He needed to leave the X-Men for a while, but it wasn't to shut himself off from living. And Kitty's arrival at the end is just so beautifully symbolic of death and rebirth, of life going on. Knowing what's ahead for the X-men with her as a member and for her as a character, it's easy to feel uplifted at the end. Honestly, I would have rather seen a whole issue of the X-Men dealing with Jean's death, punctuated with these moments, than the clip show we got.

All of these thoughts you had about Cyclops were pretty much right on. Once upon a time, he was a great, passionate and compassionate character and a great hero to be admired. I miss that character. Looking back (or ahead), I think it all fell apart for him when Marvel decided to bring Jean back and have him leave his wife and son in response. All of the ret-conning, time-warping of Nathan/Cable and villain-izing of Madelyne Pryor couldn't undo that damage. From there, it just snowballed over the decades to the point he's at now.

I'll enjoy, though, continuing this re-read and seeing again what a great, admirable hero he used to be.


Bizarre Adventures 27 (Phoenix story)

This Marvel Masterworks did buyers like me a nice favor and includes this rare story that was published in the short-lived Bizarre Adventures magazine. I never owned this and indeed never knew it existed before I saw its inclusion in Uncanny X-Men Masterworks Volume 5. So this was a bit of a treat.

Note: The same Bizarre Adventures included solo Iceman and Nightcrawler stories, but those weren't included in the Masterworks. Both of those were written by Jo Duffy (the latter co-written with Bob Layton)with art by George Perez on the Iceman story and Dave Cockrum on the Nightcrawler story. Both sound like stories I wish had been reprinted here and that I might track down some day.

But the story at hand focuses on Sarah Grey visiting her sister's grave and reminiscing about how an outing with her sister turned into a shared adventure as both fall captive to the Atlantean villain Attuma.

John Buscema is the artist on the story, which is, appropriately, written by Claremont. Buscema's art, presented her in black and white as it was in the magazine, is really beautiful. It has kind of an ethereal, airbrushed quality to its appearance and isn't merely an uncolored strip. I like how this works for the story as a flashback to a deceased character. His work is very beautiful here and a visual treat. However, his Jean doesn't really bring the character's definitive look in my opinion. Without color and seeing her occasionally in costume, you'd never know it was Jean. I'd recognize Byrne's Jean anywhere, for example.

The story itself is pretty unusual and has somewhat of an uncomfortable vibe. You see, Attuma's intent here is to make Jean and Sarah his "wives". So essentially, the intent here is for the villain to rape our leads and produce powerful offspring. This is what Attuma states. Presumably, since Sarah is not powered, she's to be just a bonus sex slave. In fact when Jean is able to get free and attack Attuma and his cronies, he states that he will put Jean's head on a stake so that she may witness Attuma and Sarah consummate their marriage. Yeah, pretty dark, but the intent of the magazine was to tell stories without the Comics Code. It's a little hard to get that uncomfortable out of my head as I read the story, but it certainly helps that none of those acts actually happens in the story.

So casting the darker edge of the story, it's a tale of a "normal" sister dealing with her sister being something she can't relate to and even fears. As subtext, that's a larger truth that many of us can relate to as a theme, even if we can't relate to super powers. And it's a pretty interesting idea to feature a character in Sarah that we've really only seen in passing before. She experiences and is a frightened participant in a high stakes scenario that her sister has encountered many of before.

And we get to see Jean save her sister in a way that hints at the extent of her power that we came to see before her story was over. And Sarah gets to save her right back. But Sarah is left in fear that maybe her children will be mutants who face the kind of dangers that Jean constantly deals with. Then, Jean wipes Sarah's memory of the adventure to soothe her sister's troubled mind, recalling what Jean did to Kitty's dad and perhaps not showing good judgment in exercising the ability.

But when Jean died, Sarah reveals that the memory block also lifted. She finds that she is less fearful for her children in the wake of her sister's heroic sacrifice.

I could have done without the sex slave implications, but overall I'd say this is a much better "elegy" to the character of Jean Grey in its own way than issue 138 was supposed to be.

Uncanny X-Men #139-140

The main thrust of these issues is the tying up of the Alpha Flight loose end, which leads to Wolverine and Nightcrawler going to Canada and unexpectedly teaming up with half of Alpha Flight against Wendigo.

But, in my opinion, the best scenes in these issues are the subplot about Ororo and Kitty's blossoming surrogate mother/daughter relationship, and Ororo's jealousy towards Kitty's friendly dance teacher, Stevie Hunter. Wonderfully executed by Claremont & Byrne, this is a reaffirmation of their talents for quiet little interpersonal moments.

The main story doesn't come off quite as well, I think. While it is pretty cool that the creators chose to tie up a second loose end regarding Wolverine's very first appearance, in the pages of the Hulk's solo book, and while the battle against the Wendigo is well done and there are good character bits, it all feels a bit routine to me. Also, when Snowbird turns savage and has to be talked down by Wolverine, it's already starting to feel rather cliched. It's also kind of a shame that we only see half of Alpha Flight, while the other half are off guest-starring in an issue of Machine Man which I haven't read. Perhaps the Canadian government's dissolving of Alpha Flight at the end was Claremont & Byrne's way of protecting these characters from other creators who wouldn't understand them quite as well. Alpha Flight, as far as I know, didn't show up again until the first issue of their own Byrne-driven series, nearly three years later. As I said before in this thread, I loved the first issue of Alpha Flight, but felt it was all downhill from there (though I think Fabian Nicieza was getting the book on track before he was removed from it after just a little over one year.)

Uncanny X-Men #139-140

In the post Dark Phoenix era, we have John Byrne winding down his run with Claremont as he gears up for his big Fantastic Four masterpiece but not before getting in a few more excellent stories. I actually like this little story quite a bit and its for the same things that Fanfie praises, which are the personal moments that focus purely on character and the relationships between the various X-Men. Meanwhile, while the Wendigo story is somewhat routine, it looks amazingly lush and beautiful as done by Byrne, Austen and Wein--full of action, dynamism and color.

The opening sequence is one of those "classic X-Men sequences" that helped make danger room scenes so classic. We see the "new" X-Men after Cyclops has left with Angel rejoining and Kitty Pryde now on the team. The change in the roster came at the exact best time possible: in the Proteus Saga, right before things went tits up in Dark Phoenix, the X-Men had coalesced into a formidable unit. Now, with Angel being rusty and not knowing his teammates, and Kitty being brand new, the team is forced to figure out a way to mesh together again. It also provides a further reason for Professor X to be there. This evolution is further shown by Storm assuming the role of leader (which we see more of in the next story arc) and Wolverine changing his costume.

The main story, featuring half of Alpha Flight and Wendigo, is something the fans were going nuts to see. Not only did they want more Alpha Flght, they wanted (for whatever reason, since it wouldn't be on my "must see list") Wolverline versus Wendigo Round 2. So the creators give it to them, and tie up the loose end of Wolverine's status in Canada. That is an appropriate subplot to resolve since there is a clear "everything is different now" feel to the series in the wake of Jean's death, and the series is moving on to other things. What I love about this whole sequence is the way Logan and Nightcrawler interact with each other and with Vindicator, Snowbird and Shaman. As mentioned before, Shaman and Snowbird are my two favorites in Alpha Flight and this story is basically why. We also get to see Wolverine joking around with Heather Hudson, which comes off as genuine and playful--adding a nice element to Logan's already complex personality. At stories end, Wolverine clarifies his views on killing, perhaps to silence the letters page once and for all about his being a murderer.

I like the Wolverine talking down Snowbird scene because of the way it mirrors the earlier Scott / Jean scene in Dark Phoenix. More importantly, Wolverine acknowledges the similarity himself in story--suggesting that seeing Scott do that with Jean changed something within him; now he's recognizing some of the ways Scott was right about things that perhaps he missed before. It’s a sublte way to show how Wolverine has been changed by Dark Phoenix, and also shows his growth by what he’s learned from Scott.

The best scene in the entire 2-parter, IMO, is the end of #139 with Nightcrawler looking at the sunset. This is one of my favorite scenes in X-Men history. It is incredibly heartfelt and is something anyone who has ever lost someone can relate to. Claremont deserves the credit for this, as he must have seen the beautiful sunset that Byrne had drawn and then found the perfect words to express Nightcrawler’s grief. For me, Nightcrawler has perhaps the best three scenes out of the entire run of #100-200. One was the conversation with Scott in #109; now this one; and my absolute favorite one is still to come.

The others all get nice character moments here in their own way. Storm and Colossus exhibit some gallows humor in the opening sequence which is totally out of character for them. Yet that is incredibly realistic and humanizes them so much. Humor is the best coping mechanism people can utilize when they’re sad or scared or don’t know how to feel. Later, we see a nice scene where Peter is removing a tree stump and he talks of his love of Mother Nature and farming, which is really an offshoot of his homesickness subplot but in a way to get away from the possibilitiy of his leaving. This sense of creating things will eventually evolve into his creating art, a part of his characer I love.

Like Fanfie, the Kitty / Ororo scenes are among my favorites here. They are chalk full of character from start to finish. Both characters are endearing and interesting, and the chemistry they share is like wildfire—from here on out, the Kitty / Storm relationship remains a high point of the series. And just as storm was showcasing some gallows humor earlier, she’s now showcasing some feelings of jealously, which again serve to make her more human. The scene is helped by Stevie Hunter being such an interesting, complex character. Kitty refers to her backstory offhandidly but is shows she’s another complex, multi-layered character.

Kitty is revealed to be a genius, making me fall even more in love with her. I like that she has an extra curicular activity in dancing—its’ something more teen heroes should have. Yet another great addition to Kitty’s story.

Meanwhile, as a clear example of all his few appearances as an X-Man during this era, Angel comes off as a bit of an enigma. Claremont clearly didn’t have a feel for the character; he’s not unlikable, but there isn’t really anything there to be excited about other than his awesome depiction by the art team. Other than his being rusty, we get the clear sense that he and Logan don’t like each other, and that is one facet that I like quite a bit. That is bound to happen with any group, and the two mutually disliking one another serves the franchise well in the long run, setting up some great scenes down the road, one in particular in the X-Tinction Agenda crossover. They’re much like Scott and Logan, except without Warren ever earning Logan’s respect as a leader, because the situation never demanded it.

After the epic Proteus Saga and the epic Dark Phoenix Saga, this story is a nice change of pace by focusing entirely on character. Although Byrne was winding down his run, it also set up the next phase of the X-Men nicely.

Meanwhile, as is shown by other posts, the X-Men were making appearances in various other places as well around now.

As I said, I don't have and have never read Annual #4. I've always sought after it because of how important it is for Amanda Sefton, whom I like quite a bit. But also because I'm curious about how Kurt's girlfriend is revealed to be his step-sister. Say whaaaat? Not the best plot twist.

All I've ever known about the Bizarre Adventures story is that it exists, so its great to hear your review, Lardy! It actually sounds like an interesting story since we get to see Jean's sister and Jean have an adventure together. As many know, Jean's sister was once considered as a replacement for Jean in X-Factor when Claremont learned about what Byrne, Layton and others were going to do. It's a shame some idiot writer eventually killed her.

Also during this time was Marvel Team-Up #100, which is a great Fantastic Four / Spider-Man / X-Men story that introduces Karma. It's by Claremont, Byrne and Austen and is pretty damn fantastic. I can't remember if it came a little later or around now.

Uncanny X-Men #141-142

John Byrne clearly has one more epic story in him before he departs, as Claremont and he present yet another legendary story in X-Men lore (and comic book lore) with Days of Future Past. It’s amazing how revered this story has become over the decades. When I was first getting into the X-Men in the early 90’s (during the era the cartoon did a version of it too), it was already spoken about in hushed tones as a masterpiece. Now, after Marvel has milked the concept of alternative dystopia futures for 30 years, it’s basically like the Old Testament.

Forgetting all the band stories to come over the decades, its easy to see why people went apeshit bananas. The story if yet another fantastic epic from start to finish, and is loaded with so many things that its almost overwhelming. On top of high quality art and masterful penmanship, the plot / montage of what’s actually happening is just incredible.

In the post Dark Phoenix era, the X-Men would again re-focus on mutants, the dangers mutants face, bigotry and fear. These elements were the most important part of the first 15 issues or so of the series but they occasionally slid into the background. Hereafter, with this story, they become paramount once again; the series remains permanently focused on mutants as a metaphor.

The “Future” we see is so chalk-full of easter eggs that you can’t help but list them in your head as you’re reading: Magneto as a wheelchair bound X-Man; Franklin; Kitty & Peter together; etc. And then of course Rachel. It’s never said in this story but its obvious that Rachel is Scott and Jean’s daughter (to me at least). I’ve become a fan of Rachel over the years though it took a little prodding along by some thankfully good stories.

Better than the actual future is that we get a timeline of how it got to that point. You know the series was a critical and sales hit by how much Marvel milked all these things in the 80’s. We get “1984: Do you know what your children are?”. That is so brilliant a phrase that Marvel used it as an add in 1984 in their comics. The Mutant Control Act of 1988 suddenly became like a ticking timebomb weighing down on the series as the decade slowly progressed. (Of course, it’s amazing that the future takes place in 2013.) This story, and the possible future ahead, lent a very serious weight on the series moving forward.

The future X-Men come off as interesting characters but I’m not really a fan of “possible future” stories or even “alternative reality” stories in general. There are just too many bad stories I’ve read that have those. One thing for sure is Wolverine has yet another fantastic sequence where he’s “the man”; but even better, the scene where the Sentinel kills him is iconic. That death is harsh and happens quickly, possibly to show “he isn’t that much THE MAN”.

Beyond the future, we also get a fantastic story in the present, as the new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants is introduced. They are all interesting in their own way, though Mystique clearly steals the show. She is one of the best characters in the entire X-Men franchise, and this is shown right from the beginning. The Raven Darkholme identity and her Pentagon connections make her more dangerous than anyone but the reader knows and further sets up future plots. We even get the Nightcrawler connection hints from the onset, though that plot point remains dangling for longer than the average age of most X-fans.

BTW, I also like the Blob because he’s such an asshole. He’s just clearly a big piece of shit. Sometimes that’s needed in a villain!

Senator Kelly is more fully introduced as the larger political and governmental problems come into focus. These problems, which are not so easily solved, also give Professor X another thing to do in the series.

The X-Men themselves all come across well. After the character / plot focus in the prior story and the first half of this one, #142 presents a real slugfest that allows each member to shine. Storm comes across as a very capable leader, even if she’s a little unused to it. Kitty, while not really involved in the slugfest, has an excellent scene in the beginning of the entire story, so she also gets some nice screen time.

The ending of the story is also great as it’s complex: the X-Men are victorious yet the future X-Men all die. Destiny predicts things might also be terrible for mutants if Senator Kelly lives, and then we see subsequently see Kelly & Shaw and the start of Project Wideawake, which will linger over series for years to come. And then, in the final panel, we get the by now infamous Henry Peter Gyrich–probably the most hated man in comics—who transitions from the Avengers series to the X-Men series. That must have been a shock for readers of Avengers, which by now I believe Byrne was drawing too for a brief run, after Gyrich was essentially phased out.

Cobie, you've definitely given me some food for thought about the second Alpha Flight appearance, although I still wish we'd gotten the whole team.

I'll comment on Days of Future Past later this week, after I finally re-read it.

IIRC, Marvel Team-Up 100 was drawn not by John Byrne but by Frank Miller. I usually don't like him, but I could tolerate him in this story, maybe because Claremont's script was so good.

Cobie, I got the impression earlier that you meant to respond to my posts on 135-137 & Phoenix: The Untold Story that began here (and continued in the following post) but didn't at the time because you didn't want to do so on your phone. If I'm correct, I'm reminding you before we get to far removed from Dark Phoenix.

Fanfie, you're so right about Frank Miller, which I forgot about. And funny enough, I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread. He does a really great job in the story too--it's still in his very early Marvel style that he had on Daredevil.

Lardy, I posted a few further thoughts on Fanfie's thread in Bits yesterday, but I'll go a little further: essentially, I think you're absolutely right. I've never read the untold story but your description is fascinating. I can easily see how the earlier scenes might have been lighter with more whimsical thoughts; I think changing those thoughts to reflect the more serious ending to come was definitely the right decision, as it lent the entire issue some gravity from start to finish.

As is usually the case in life, what really matters is the finished product. That is the final message you're saying. So its always fascinating to see some editing and changing going on. With a monkey wrench thrown into the process, Byrne and Claremont had to make some hard decisions fast. It reminds me of the brilliant decisions made by TMK when edicts came from up on high. Sometimes when you're under the gun and don't have time to second guess yourself, you're at your most inspired.

I have to say I'm surprised the story doesn't quite hold up for you though as it once did. A lot of that certainly is about you as a person--you read the story when you were younger and it holds a certain place in your heart. I have many stories like that myself. I read it when I was 19 years old and probably had already read 10,000 comic books or something. So I still think its a masterpiece.

Our discussion around Dark Phoenix alone has made the entire reread worth doing. It says a lot that a story published in 1980 (a year before I was born, by the way) has us this enthralled.

#141-142

As bad as things are in the world of the 21st century X-Men, there’s even worse over the horizon. The last survivors of the group launch a desperate mission. But it’s not launched to save themselves. Even on the edge of extinction. Even after the untold daily horrors they have suffered. The X-Men seek to prevent global devastation and save everyone, including their persecutors.

They selflessly plan, knowing that they will cease to exist if they succeed or will certainly be killed if they fail.

It doesn’t get much more heroic than the X-Men in issues 141 and 142.

I’m always impressed at the way Claremont holds back in his telling of the story. There’s no introductory wall of text providing the back story. There’s no huge opening battle between the Marvel heroes and the Sentinels. There’s a worn out woman picking her way through the wreckage of a city, where she is accosted by the thugs left behind when everyone else left.
Within those three opening pages, readers know that this is New York, that Kate Pryde (only recently introduced as a 13/14 year old) is the worn out captive of the Sentinels, that there is a mission and that Logan is free.

The changes of this world are shown in heart rending clarity by simply following Pryde back to the internment camp. In the trams, that are horse drawn due to America’s isolation, we see clothing marked depending on genes. We see the angry, hateful faces of the other passengers. And we see the seated, pointing child, singling the standing Pryde out, a clear sign that future generations may be even worse.

Claremont is not showing us a dark mirror of our world as Pryde walks towards the camp gates and towards the “intentionally humiliating” security examination that awaits.
In the run down streets we have seen economic collapse and loss of individual freedoms. On the trams we have seen discrimination and persecution. Through the camp gates, passing the graveyard, we see the loss of hope and the systematic elimination of anyone who does not follow the robotic drum beat of this society.

But putting the comic down and looking out at the world. There’s not a country without a past or present littered with such incidents and atrocities. There’s not a country where it can be guaranteed that such things could not easily happen again. There’s no added darkness in this mirror.

All of this before large scale, high tension fight scenes across two times against deadly foes with the fate of humanities future far from guaranteed.

I guess that the biggest response I was looking from you (and from Fickles and any other interested parties) is: What do you think is the true nature of/explanation for Jean's existence as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix as presented by Claremont and Byrne in these original stories?

To me, it's a debate well worth having. Was she Jean unlocking her power to its ultimate potential and not being able to handle it? Was she a victim possessed/influenced by a cosmic entity and therefore not responsible (or at least mostly not responsible) for her actions? Or was she never Jean in the first place (as Marvel ultimately decided)? Or was there something other theory that's workable based on the original material?

Again, the major reason it didn't quite live up for me on the re-read is because I'd always believed the first explanation because that's how I remembered it. It was disappointing to see references to a "Phoenix entity" in the original story and to see how Claremont and Byrne in fact sowed the seeds for what I always felt previously was a bastardization of a classic. Basically, it was a much better ret-con because of those references, and I hate that it is.

All other quibbles I have with the story pale in comparison, even the things I wished had happened, such as more "screen time" for Dark Phoenix and thinking there should have been more escalation before she destroyed D'Bari.

So Cobie, I ask you and everyone else before we get too far removed--what do y'all think?

Uncanny X-Men Annual 4

While it's not a particularly remarkable story (and I concur with Fickles that most of Claremont's X-Men Annuals are pretty *meh* overall), I wouldn't say by any stretch that this one's terrible or a hard skip.

For one thing, I do like John Jr.'s artwork here. it's interesting to see his older style again, which is more of a classic style and reminiscent of his dad's work. And while it is correct that the later Jr. would definitely have made this vision of Hell more macabre and generally weirder than what we got here, it's still rendered competently and with some flair. The overall vision is more of desolation than of horror, and I can see how that can be thematically effective. Plus, well, this was a Code-approved book at a time when the Comics Code still had some weight.

I certainly would have preferred more than a cursory look into Nightcrawler's background, but we do get some good tidbits, particularly the tragedy involving Kurt's stepbrother. It seemed there was more to this story and Kurt's life with Margali and Amanda that could have been fascinating to read about. I don't know if we ever learned a whole lot more to my recollection.

For the record, I don't find Kurt's romantic relationship with his stepsister to be creepy, for whatever reason. I can certainly see how it would be, but there are certainly precedents in fiction over various media.

It succeeds, as Annual 3 did, in doing one of the things that I think annuals should do: tell an engaging, self-contained story. (The other option being to tell the climax of a big storyline.) It's not essential reading, but it's worth a look.


Uncanny X-Men 139-140

You know, the big eye-opener of re-reading this story was being reminded of Angel's brief tenure among our merry band of mutants during Cyclops's absence. I had completely forgotten he'd ever been a member during this era! Even to the point that his floating head was included among the other familiar faces in the corner box! I guess you can easily argue that his stay was brief and not exactly filled with huge moments for him, but it's pretty funny I'd forgotten, considering I really had kind of an affinity for the character during my teens. So, to know I'd forgotten about this.......well, old dude feels OLD!

Otherwise, not a lot stands out from this story, other than things that have already mentioned, like the bits with Ororo, Kitty and Stevie Hunter. For the most part, it was *just* par for the course, "par" meaning that Claremont and Byrne delivered another two issues of solid storytelling that makes most of today's comics look like total dreck in comparison!

As always, it's an absolute pleasure to see Byrne draw Alpha Flight, albeit only three members. Other than the explanation of the other three appearing in Machine Man, I'd wager that Sasquatch was kept out to make Wendigo much more of a threat. But I sure would have loved to see ol' Walter Langkowski tussle with such a similar analogue! (I'm sure they probably did later at some point, but probably not with Byrne drawing it. ) But no one draws any Alphan like Byrne, imo, so it's nice to see Mac, Shaman and Snowbird, at least. And of course, we get Heather for the first time as a bonus, plus more details of Logan's past with her and Mac.

Speaking of Logan, we finally get him in the costume Byrne designed for him. (I love the non-explanation when Nightcrawler asks! "Why not?" indeed! ) It occurs so late in Byrne's run that we, unfortunately, won't get to see Byrne draw him in it much. But I personally prefer it as the more subdued colors seem to suit the character better. After this re-read, however, the gap between my preferences has narrowed a good bit. I'd still choose the Byrne redesign, but I now "like" the yellow/blue/black where I used to hate it.

The new costume is significant in that it's the only new costume that Byrne designed for any of the leads during his tenure. He really didn't even tweak any of the other costumes (not counting the Dark Phoenix change for what I see as an obvious reason). I respect that a lot because it showed Byrne respected and recognized the greatness of Cockrum's designs. The one costume Byrne did change was not a Cockrum-created character. Though Cockrum's Wolverine was itself an improvement/tweak on what Herb Trimpe did in creating the character, it means something to me that Byrne left Cockrum's designs alone. I mean, what hot artist these days doesn't do numerous costume changes on a team book just to put his stamp on the book and the characters. Byrne's restraint on this during his run was classy, and the one change he made served the character well, imo.

I think it's interesting that the cliffhanger with the Blob (who interestingly, isn't referred to by anything but his real name in the teaser) just scratches the surface of the awesome epic that it leads into. No indication as to who will lead the new Brotherhood or just what a cutting edge and significant story we are about to behold! Can't wait!

I like Wolvie's brown costume too, so much that I hated the yellow one ... I was introduced to the brown first ... I could actually see someone besides Logan wearing the garish costume ... like Daken but not Logan's personality.

I think 'Ro needed a new costume before she went all the way the other direction to punk Storm, she need a transition look even though Byrne drew her beautifully.

Nightcrawlers and Colossuses costumes were timeless. (if a bit impracticle with those shoulder wings)


I totally agree that Byrne and Claremont pack in the story! it is the subtelty, the looks on the characters faces during the quiet panels that tell the behind the scenes stories.

They don't beat you over the head with a 2 by 4 that has rusty nails sticking out of it.

Well...to be perfectly honest, I either missed or "bleeped out" the references to a Phoenix entity in previous reads, but if we do give them validity, I think would leave us with the same scenario as Green Lantern: Rebirth several years ago. If someone commits mass murder while possessed by an evil (in the case of Parallax) or amoral (in the case of Phoenix) cosmic entity, does that absolve them? I say "yes" in both cases, but I'll admit it's a shaky "yes" which is heavily influenced by my affection for both Hal Jordan and Jean Grey, and I choose to ignore the naysayers even as I concede that their arguments do have some value. Then, too, "Emerald Twilight" was a humongous turd, while "The Dark Phoenix Saga" was superbly executed.

I always thought, and always will think that Jean didn't die, but her great omega level potential reached out to the cosmic entity Phoenix, they then became some sort of hybrid ... as the expression of the Phoenix reflected itself as Jean or in Jean ways but soon ate her all up and took over.

I actually think the Dark expression and corruption of the Phoenix (not only the corruption of Jean Grey) was due to Mastermind messing with them.

I don't think she or the Phoenix or the mixture they were would necessarily have gone mad without Mastermind.

It really wasn't just the "Dark Phoenix Saga" issues but the years (?) leading up to the saga. To a certain (lesser) extent the Raven Trigon story as well! Her face changed slowly over time!

ahhh so good.

This thread appears to have stalled. What happened? Lardy wanted to discuss the Dark Phoenix Saga a bit longer, Peebs and I obliged, and then...crickets. Are you guys okay?

I've honestly been just so busy with work that I haven't had a chance to post. I have a reply to Lardy in my head, and I've read the next two issues, so I just need a little time when I'm on a PC (usually at work).

I don't like to post long responses from my phone as they did to get screwed up (and I hate typing with two thumbs).

I'd say please keep going guys. No need to wait for me or anyone. I'll be responding when I get a moment. Work has just been nonstop go-go- go for the last few days and I'm mentally frazzled when I get home.

I've read 141-142 but just haven't had the time to write a post about it because, like Cobie, I've been a bit swamped. I see you haven't written up those issues either, Fickles. No reason to put that off on my account if you're ready for it. I certainly didn't mean to hold everything else up because of my desire to further explore the DPS. I certainly never meant to bog things down.

All that said, I'm beginning to rethink my stance on taking a break. I'm not burned out, exactly, but I've found myself wanting to read other stuff lately--from my ever-growing stack of "new" comics to a random bird I just got up my butt to read (not re-read) the original Celestial Madonna Saga. Someone posting artwork from it on the Dave Cockrum Art Appreciation FB page set me off and reminded me that I had had the trade for about a decade and had never read it. In a way, this X-Men re-read has sent me into a '70s nostalgia frenzy!

In any case I'm not now dead-set on taking a break, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case anyone else has had second thoughts.....

For me, the way I’ve always read this before I even knew about retcons and such, was that the Phoenix was a distinct separate entity that possessed Jean. However, rather than “the Phoenix acting as Jean”, I interpreted it as “Jean acting on her own after being corrupted by the Phoenix”. Therefore, it was still Jean who was thinking Jean-thoughts and doing Jean-things; but it was a Jean who had been turned towards this path against her will.

The basis for this, I’m sure, comes from the Lord of the Rings, which I’ve loved since I was about 11 years old and read many times, and Dungeons & Dragons, which had similar malevolent entities that could do this like the Hand of Venca. That probably served as the basis for my looking the story in this way.

As you say, from the very get-go, the Phoenix is treated as a very distinct entity. In the Dark Phoenix Saga, specifically when she battles the X-Men on Earth and in those final moments where the entity regains power in #137, there feels like a clear distinction between “normal Jean” and “Phoenix Jean”.

Yet, to say that the Jean of issues #101-137 is a totally different person / thing just is *too* far-fetched to me. That doesn’t quite ring true either.

For me, these issues feature Jean Grey, as corrupted by the Phoenix. But she’s still Jean. She would never have murdered all those beings if she had never been possessed by Phoenix, yes. But the Phoenix didn’t control her every move—rather, it influenced a darkness within her which allowed her own “dark side” to control her ever move.

The lack of a cut & dry explanation makes it more complex. Is Jean responsible? One might argue no, because like Hal Jordan she was possessed. But a case could be made—and I’m not the one to make it as I don’t really believe it—that she still should be somewhat guilty since she did these things and there was something terrible inside her that was unleashed.

I read ahead to two more issues, which I want to get in. This includes Byrne’s final issue in the run and the Cyclops spotlight fill-in before Dave Cockrum begins his second run on the series.

Uncanny X-Men #143

#143 is a small, one-off story yet it is no less a classic than the Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past or the Proteus Saga. It is one the quintessential issues of the entire Byrne / Claremont run and continues to stand out all these decades later as an example of excellence. That there should tell you how I feel about the issue, but being the wordy sunovabitch I am, I’ll go on.

The newest X-Man, Kitty Pryde is featured in a solo story here, with the story focusing almost entirely on her from start to finish (at least 97% of the issue). And if readers weren’t already in love with Kitty by now, they would leave this issue feeling that way. We get the classic “baptism of fire” for the rookie who is up against a much greater threat story, but this one is probably the gold standard in comics. With powers that are not the most aggressive and with no experience, Kitty is forced to use her wits to beat the N’Garai creature and in doing so shows a ton of ingenuity and courage. Every single panel reflects this, showcasing the deepest depths of her character and IMO, presents a clear case on what it means to be a hero (super or otherwise). With thought bubbles providing the play by play—making me long for them even more—Kitty battles her own fear, self-doubt and anxiety, overcoming it all one panel at a time.

It’s brilliant. And it’s made even more brilliant by this issue being basically a tour de force of plotting and montage. With only one character front & center with a personality-less monster, Claremont and Byrne take time to flex their plot muscles by providing wonderful pacing, plot structure and panel layouts. The end result is non-stop action, tension and cleverness every step of the way.

The opening sequence of time passing from the first battle with the N’Garai in #96 to now is just pure layout brilliance by Byrne.

The plot structure of having Prof X teaching Kitty how to do the ignition procedure on the Blackbird and then it coming back to save her in the end is just scripting brilliant by Claremont.

What a wonderful way to end Byrne’s run.

The issue also has a few other nice moments. The X-Men flying in Kitty’s parents to visit is a very nice touch. The first hints of the Peter / Kitty romance are shown in a fashion that makes you crave more. Cyclops has a quick scene that clues the reader into his not truly being gone from the cast, and it also introduces a favorite of mine, Lee Forrester. Always aware of the seasons in X-Men, Claremont showcases the 3rd New X-Men Christmas.

It’s amazing that by now, there was a steady build-up of animosity between Byrne and Claremont. Ego, I’m sure, had a lot to do with it. Byrne was simply ready to take on full duties of writing and penciling where he controlled the writing completely, including the scripts. There are various instances on the internet which show Byrne drawing something and then Claremont changing the dialogue so it wasn’t what Byrne intended. He’s said it wasn’t any one thing, or even #137 (which wasn’t Claremont’s fault) that did it, just a build-up over time. That’s too bad, but in reality, all good things must come to an end. It’s the fact that they ended which helps solidify how special they are.

And this was pretty damn special. It’s hard to find 10 other series in comics history on par with Byrne & Claremont on X-Men, IMO. Both creators would continue to do some pretty amazing things: Byrne would go on to his incredible Fantastic Four run, which I believe is the only other truly great run on that title besides Kirby & Lee. And Claremont had a LOT more great stories in him with the X-Men which he would showcase for many years to come.

It’s amazing this run was only about 3 years worth of stories, as it had such an immense impact. It was awesome to reread them again.

Uncanny X-Men #144

Between Byrne’s final issue and the start of Cockrum’s second run we get a fill-in issue in #144 which puts the spotlight on the missing Cyclops. This is clearly a fill-in story, and the lack of Byrne art can be a little jarring. Yet, for a fill-in, I think its actually quite good and deserving of some nice praise.

What we get is a great character piece for Scott Summers, which helps redefine him and reintroduce him to the cast in the post-Dark Phoenix era. He is shown to be the multi-layered character he’s grown into, and he gets to showcase all of his skills and heroism here.

The artwork is by Brent Anderson, who does a good job. Brent would be important to the X-Men in small ways over the years, but his biggest contribution of course is “God Loves, Man Kills”, which is a truly brilliant X-Men story.

In a bit of irony, Brent’s longtime partner on Astro City, Kurt Busiek, had a letter printed in the prior issue. Within the letter, he declares he’s quitting reading the X-Men in light of Dark Phoenix because things had grown too dark and depressing. IMO, he doesn’t come off looking too good. As the years went on, he matured a bit in his approach. Though I wonder how he feels now. (Wasn’t he somehow involved in resurrecting Jean? Bah! If so, I demand we hold his trial on Legion World).

The story involves Man-Thing and D’Spayre, two Claremont favorites as I pointed out earlier in the thread. I like Man-Thing but I can only take the character in small doses and with a greater story behind him. This story works though because these characters are secondary to the focus on Scott. Rather than spend pages and pages on non-sensical magic battles, we instead get an awesome focus on Scott’s past: his child hood sequence falling out of the plane and the beautiful moment on the mesa with Jean being the two big ones.

My girl Lee Forrester is showcased as well. The issue does a pretty good job introducing her but I can’t quite remember why I love her so much (it’s not here). I really like her being a fishing boat Captain, drinking entire pots of coffee, and going grabbing beer with the guys. There’s something very attractive about her.

Meanwhile, the X-Men are also seen back at home. In one scene Kitty gets upset when Nightcrawler and Wolverline tease her a bit. I actually found this scene kind of hilarious! It reminded me of the ball-breaking my fellow hockey players would give each other, or even my siblings. Of course, Kitty doesn’t find it all that funny at the moment. Over time, that would change.

One thing I didn’t like was the way Prof X asks Angel for money. This has always been annoying to me. Up until now, Angel has lingered in the background, and this is the only real subplot he’s gotten so far. It’s as if Claremont couldn’t think of anything else so he focused on the fact that Warren is wealthy—as if, that’s all he’s good for. I’ve never cared for those kind of plots.

The statement of Ownership shows that the paid circulation around this time was about 200,000, which is about double where it was at #100. That means it’s now emerged as one of the bigger sellers in comics though not quite on the high level of Spider-Man and the Hulk in the 70’s, which were upwards to about 300,000. Still, one could assume its been a steady climb throughout the celebrated Byrne run which won numerous awards. Hereafter, sales will continue to explode for a long, steady while.