Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

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Minerva scenes to come shortly.

Ta Muchly.

You're very welcome.

The first Minerva scene:

The second Minerva scene:

Avengers #347

A clutching feeling of dread, a instant of horror and that's the end of Quasar. Marvel's Green Lantern equivalent gets removed on the first page (assuming ill defined cosmic powers don't save him).

Having read many more DC titles than Marvel, the impact of the Kree's destruction means less to me than it otherwise would had I been a regular reader. However, I'm aware of the length of history they have in the Marvel Universe, and also their status in this story.

I'm wondering if the utter devastation in the opening pages was part of the Supreme Squiggletop's plan. We see panels including Minerva & Deathbird, linking us with a light touch to the last issue, even as the blast wave sweeps its way across their empire.

We've seen waves of white anti matter death a few times down the years. This one is a little different in that all the worlds affected have a connection. It's the fall of an empire, not random universes to prove someone's power. there's more of a Weapon of Mass Destruction feel to this than a Weapon of Plot Point.

A survivor appears at the bottom of page 4. So, the bomb may not be as final as I thought. And to confirm this, Quasar turns up alive a couple of pages later. I have to say that this really sucks the impact out of the opening page. They really did just mean "blown away."

Quasar finds floating Avengers and Deathbird also appears alive. Nega Bombs are clearly lethal to nearly all life, can devastate cities but not planets, and are precise enough to leave central characters unscathed (I'm fairly sure the Avengers will get better). Jeez, even Vision and Wonder Man survive having been right on top of it. There's an explanation, but it's a bit of a fudge. There's a lot of costumed survival considering the blast on that first page, robbing some of the tension. The cliff hangers leading up to all of this last gasp survival must have been interesting, but it's a litle mch to accept all together.

Sersi's solution to save the Avengers reminded me of the Progenitor's methods to save himself and the Legion Lost in the DnA run.

Even on a devastated, near lifeless, planet, Herc still manages to find someone to punch him into the ground. This is Atlas and Minerva making it out alive too.

I'm wondering why Supreme Tentacletop had to boast about his plan to push the evolution of his own race forward by wiping it out. It's an impressive payoff from the last issue. But he's surely ruined any chance of leading it if everyone knows about it? Perhaps he'll be some twisted messiah to the survivors.

Minerva also seems to have known all along. Even as she gloats about the coming race, she is emotionally attached enough to Atlas to share his death. It was a future she had panned to share with him; to create a genetic legacy of their own. Such a creep last issue, but a strong final moment from Atlas. Faced with the truth behind his actions, he could take no revenge of his own. Yet he could not continue to live under such an empire.

Also from a previous issue is Dane's brand of vengeance. And here we are. The pay off from our all those earlier issues, containing disagreements between Cap and the others from Rage to Dane to Sersi over the purpose of the Avengers. Harris isn't making this easy for either side. Cap's principles have to withstand being at the centre of genocide. The others with uncertainty over their actions and the sentience of their immediate foe.

The team splits down the middle. It's no surprise to see our sword and sorcery based characters - Black Knight, Thor and Herc on the killing side along with the ex-munitions dealer and the Eternal. The Vision should remember his decision the next time people are looking to shut him down.

On the other side, the surprise is Crystal. She quite happily got Lockjaw to teleport the Brethren to their deaths issues ago. I'm also reminded of Wanda's later actions and of Genosha. But in this time, the tragedy almost too much and it's nice to see someone react in this way.

There are some good exchanges before the teams part ways, Wanda to Simon based on their history. Alt-Thor to Wendell strikes home as Quasar really is more powers than personality. Alt-Thor is correct to point out that lack of depth. Herc sums that team's feelings up nicely to Cap.

Points to Harras for making the Supreme Intelligence a machine/organic hybrid, presenting a real dilemma to the Avenging Avengers. More points for having Alt-Thor change his mind. Particularly after his conversation with Quasar.

It does look as though the Intelligence foresaw his own defeat if an arc of light is anything to go by. He certainly teased the humans into the final act too.

The exchange between Iron Man and Cap was short and summed up the split between the teams very nicely. Iron Man didn't make his choice lightly. He knew what he felt he had to do and intelligently weighed up his options. The last thing he needed was a moral lecture from Cap, and it's captured in a panel. Cap does get his say once the Shi'ar have come to claim the spoils of Empire. His position is equally valid.

As the Shi'ar hand out dominion through nepotism, I'm reminded of Atlas' actions and wonder which character in the book had the capability for nobility & restraint after all.

It will be interesting to see how the actions in this issue are handled in issues to come. There are a number of possibilities beyond the will kill/won't kill camps. We see a split in the West Coast camp between Simon and Clint immediately. Considering Cap's thoughts in previous issues, it would seem as though his days as an Avenger are numbered. But what of the moral standing of those he could be leaving behind?

Manipulating galactic conflict in a bid to wipe out your own side for genetic advancement is a pretty impressive master plan. It's got a lot more going for it than the usual absorbing more and more power to be the mightiest or some other tedious endless battle.

Only last issue, I commented that it's hard to build in subplots into giant crossovers. This issue certainly flies in the face of that. We get the culmination of Cap's issues since the start of the run. We also see Sersi and Dane's stances from previous issues finally executed (>cough<). There are a number of small, short exchanges that promise more too.

It's a pyrrhic victory for the heroes. The man leading the team against genocide is willing to walk away, leaving justice to the Sh'iar who were heavily involved in causing it. Half his colleagues are only too willing to perpetuate the violence, killing without any due process. The victorious leader may regret the devastation, but her side is willing to hand out control to her psychotic sister over any of the survivors.

The only winner is the main villain. Possibly the strongest moral position is that of the villain Atlas.

Yet the Sh'iar will celebrate their victory and the Avengers will be hailed as heroes. It's an uncomfortable ending.

It has a lot more depth than a band of triumphant heroes returning to an adoring public or worse still, to more status quo sustaining adventures.

I'm very pleased with your review, Thoth. You really seem to understand what Harras was going for in this issue.



Sad to say, TPTB at Marvel got cold feet and pretty much swept the whole thing under the carpet. An epilogue in Cap's solo book sees him and Quasar both leave the team, and Cap solo writer Mark Gruenwald apparently decided that all Cap really needed to feel all better was a pep talk from a surprisingly upbeat Clint, and a perfunctory apology from Tony. By the time they finally tried to capitalize on the reprecussions two years later with the West Coast Avengers becoming Force Works, it was too little too late.

So, in the long term, it was a wet firecracker, but as a stand-alone issue, I think it's brilliant.

I enjoyed quite a bit of the early Civil War story, which made it all the more annoying when it walked right off a cliff.




I'd forgotten about Dark Scarlet Witch.

I enjoyed Byrne's Avengers West Coast for the most part. But I think a lot of that was due to me having little previous attachment to the characters. I can see fans of Wanda, Vision or Tigra for example being less than pleased, to put it mildly.

Yes. Mark Millar is definitely the man for whom the phrase "All mouth, no trousers" was invented.

I read only the first few issues of Civil War, and I was borrowing them from a friend, so I'll have to pass on the re-read.

However, I did think the philosophical differences between the characters was handled quite well. The writer may have had more room to develop those differences than Harras had here.

I found thoth's review quite interesting. He saw a lot more merit in 347 than I did.

There's a fine line between Ultra-Vision and delusion

So, now I have to figure out which one of us is deluded?

Delusion only happens to people as they get older. Oh, Happy Birthday by the way

Delusion . . . or wisdom?

Avengers 348 (June 1992)
“Familial Connections”

Summary
Watching a hologram of his former relationship with Wanda fails to rekindle the Vision’s human feelings. However, he is approached by Laura Liption, whose late husband Alex served as the brain template for the Vision. Laura reveals that Alex’s father, Prof. Miles Lipton, is dying of cancer and his last wish is to see his son again.

With prompting from Crystal, the Vision visits Prof. Lipton, who has created a machine that he believes will override the Vision’s personality and allow Alex’s to return for a short time. The Vision initially declines to participate but finally consents with urging from Crystal, who tells him it won’t hurt to try to help these people.

The procedure appears to have failed until Vision starts acting like Alex. The Vision then comforts Prof. Lipton until the latter dies and shares a brief intimate moment with Laura before his own personality returns.

Crystal believes the Vision was faking the personality override, but the Vision refuses to confirm or deny her hypothesis. Unseen by her, a single tear descends his synthetic face.

In subplotland, Dane and Hercules encounter a woman who is a dead ringer for recent villain Magdalene. Marissa Darrow is soon simply dead after an encounter with the real Magdalene and Proctor. Meanwhile, Dane acknowledges that he has feelings for Crystal, and Carol Danvers recuperates at Avengers Mansion.

Thoughts
This “quiet” story is an interlude between major story arcs and half fill-in since it was drawn by Kirk Jarvinen (who creates some rather ugly characters and flat compositions) instead of Epting.

It’s not a very important story in the overall scheme of things, but I admire what it attempted to do. We get to see a side of Vision we don’t normally see, as he tries to help “normal” people. That’s better than hanging around the mansion and watching porno flicks of himself and Wanda.

I don’t remember the Alex Lipton angle from previous stories, so this part felt episodic and disconnected from the ongoing storylines; however, if we accept that the brain patterns of this normal person were used to program the Vision (as opposed to the super-heroic Wonder Man’s) following his reassembly, the rest of the story makes sense. Laura’s visit and request would be like someone visiting the recipient of an heart transplant.

The Vision, of course, does not have the emotional connection to respond properly—so, thank Harras for Crystal, who is well utilized in the story. She represents the humanity Vision has lost and which he seeks to rekindle. Crystal is also a stand-in for the reader, an observer who watches and interprets events. She comes across as the good-natured friend everyone would like to have.

Prof. Lipton’s request is touching, as is his reunion with “Alex.” The Vision looks endearingly charming as he smiles, jokes, and hugs the old man.

The strength of this story is that it is not truly a super-hero story—Vizh and Crystal don’t even use their powers—but it is a story that explores the humanity of heroes and what it means to be human: helping others, showing kindness and compassion to those who have suffered a tremendous loss. If that is, in fact, what Vizh did in this story, then he’s closer to regaining his humanity than he thought.

Just the same, I wish there had been a more decisive ending. The fact that Crystal doesn’t see the tear means Vision can go back to pretending he’s lost his humanity—but why would he want to? Since the story begins with him trying to regain his feelings for Wanda, the fact that he appears to deny this transformation at the end seems strange and anticlimactic.

However, I do appreciate this “quiet” interlude and what it portends for the future of our favorite synthezoid.

As far as subplots go, the Marissa/Magdalene scenes do what they are meant to do: remind us of the storyline left in suspension by Operation: Galactic Storm and to deepen the mystery of our new villains. Herc, however, still comes across as an impulsive jerk in these scenes, and Dane isn’t much better. (He’s just going to tell a random woman on the street that he and his buddy are Avengers? I know they don’t have secret identities, but still.)

Harras seems to be trying to build a buddy relationship—a bromance, to use the modern term—between Dane and Herc, a la the Beast and Wonder Man. But the latter two’s contrasting personalities made their friendship work; I’m not sure what Dane and Herc have in common or not at this point.

In other news, we learn that Cap has taken a leave of absence . Considering his central role on the team for the last 40-odd issues, at least, it feels like a cheat not to show his departure in the Avengers’ own book. Instead, we’re treated to a non sequitur involving Carol Danvers, whose only role in the story is to remind us that she, like the Vision, lost her emotional connections to her past.

This sort of cross-pollination of characters and story lines once created a sense of verisimilitude in the Marvel Universe. On re-read, it’s simply annoying to have characters pop in for no reason while major events that affect the Avengers are mentioned off-hand.

So, as far as “fill-ins” go, 348 is the best yet. It takes some interesting chances with the storyline and explores different sides of the Vision and Crystal.

This is a great issue for me, even without Epting, as Harras begins to fully start the Vision down his path throughout this run (and in context, at a time when for the last few years, it felt like he'd been "ruined").

Good commentary on the different points HWW. Like you, over the years I tend to reread series like you're doing now, without the external events and sister titles, so while continuity nods at the time might have felt nice, they are more bothersome than anything else now. I'll be glad when you get to the point where you've got a nice solid run of issues without that.

Hopefully Harras' continued usage of Crystal is helping you warm up to her (and it seems like it is). She's already emerging at this point at a focal point for the Avengers, and Harras clearly has a strong handle on her personality.

I think if Epting had drawn 348, it would have been a perfect issue.

I hadn't yet read West Coast Avengers at the time I read this story, but Harras got me to care about Professor Lipton and Laura.

He also, in my opinion, did a nice job of establishing Marissa Darrow with a few bold strokes: we see that she's strong and assertive, and from her style of clothing and long black hair we might infer that she's a witch. Which would dovetail nicely with my theory that Magdalene is an alternate-timeline daughter of Wonder Man and Scarlet Witch.

As for why Vision would backslide: baby steps.

Oh, and we'll see another side of Hercules next issue.

Crystal is starting to emerge as the most likeable Avenger we've had in a long time.

I've re-read 349 and 350 now and while I'll have more to say about them later, I want to say that do like how Crystal comes across in both stories. In 349, she hangs back and watches the boys have fun, just like a mother (!), but also shows how powerful and competent she is as a hero. In 350, she has less to do except serve as the object of Dane's unrequited love. But given how sweet and attractive and professional she is, it's easy to see why anyone would fall in love with her.

I'm so glad that Crystal's growing on you, He Who.

Back in the day, I felt like Crystal and Sersi represented the two extremes of my personality. Being in my late teens at the time, the Sersi side would win out more often than not, but in the long run, the Crystal side inspired me to try to be kinder to others without being a doormat.

That's an interesting insight, Fanfie.

Given what Sersi does to Dane in 350, I wonder how far you took this side of your personality.

I would say if any two characters represented extremes in my personality, it was probably Lightning Lad and Mon-El. Mon-El was what I wanted to be like: strong, confident, a leader. LL was how I usually felt: saddled with bad luck, a somewhat immature personality, and an "evil" brother.

LOL

Rest assured I didn't take it that far, He Who. I was too busy discovering superhero comics and attending to my studies to have much of a social life.

Thanks for sharing your own similar story. If any Legionnaires represented the two extremes of my personality, they'd have to be Shadow Lass (aloof, but with passions churning underneath) and Lightning Lass (outgoing and willing to go to any extreme). And I just got to thinking, here's probably a "Which Legionnaire(s) do you most relate to?" thread somewhere on Legion World, but if not, I think it'd be awesome to start one.

Avengers 348

Crystal, in trying to reconcile her differences with Pietro a few issues ago, seems obviously drawn to a being who cannot express any emotion at all. It's obvious enough that the Black Knight warns the Vision about it. This seems a bit desperate on Crystal's part. If this is the minimum she needs to have feelings, the others should keep their kitchen appliances away from her, in case she elopes with one of them.

As if the hologram of one wife, and the attentions of someone else's wasn't enough for the anti-lothario, a third "almost" wife is waiting out in the foyer, reading through the Vision's personal details.

Fickles has already mentioned that there was no real follow up to any of the issues presented last issue. There's a whimper of a dying storyline here. We get a brief conversation in a bar, where Dane is distracted by something else (could it be a crush?) and Herc's summation is basically that they'll just get on with it. Which oddly enough suits his personality. Lots of lost opportunities for drama though.

Herc is also distracted by someone he mistakes as a villain from a few issues ago. Herc doesn't looked convinced, so may well turn the group from the Avengers into the Stalkers before too long.

The Vision gets life lessons from Crystal, and I'm wondering just how many personalities have been part of him down the years. He's a personality cloud for everyone else. When he was mind wiped, there must have been a part of him grateful for a blank slate.

Despite having no emotional attachment, the Vision seems only too eager to please all the time, and goes along with losing his non-personality for a time. I've no familiarity with the characters here, so I'm like the vision in going through the motions a bit.

Ah, they did turn out to be stalkers. Icky. Not only that, but they're too late to save the false Magdalene from the real one. There was a scene in Excalibur with a very similar setup and outcome.

Following granting an old man his last wish, the Vision pretends to go back to his old self mid-kiss. No fond farewell with the knowledge that he would change back afterwards. Instead, he allowed the other party to know he had changed back half way through. When she would have rather been left alone too.

It would seem as though the Vision is indeed faking things. This means he's playing with the feelings of everyone else. What can they do if mind wiping doesn't work? Crystal seems touched, and not only in the head, by her mechanical man being capable of turning on and off his emotions. I suppose at least Vision doesn't come with a jerk mode, putting him ahead of Pietro.

On the subplot front there's a few things going on, in a quiet interlude issue, with the characters showing us who they care for. Vision becomes emotional, and may well pine after Wanda. Crystal fancies Vision. Dane fancies Crystal or someone. Herc fancies a beer and some perving.

But The Vision is play acting and, while it is supposed to be touching, it invalidates all of his responses throughout. So, the issue undercuts the relationships it's trying to builds.

Hey, if a writer is going to steal from another writer's work, then they should steal from the best.

This idea that the Vision has no emotional attachments is bothersome to me, even though he claims he has none. If he is indeed devoid of emotions, why would he be a hero or stay with the Avengers? I suppose one might argue that it is the "logical" course, but even Spock had his buried emotional side.

Your comment that the Vision's play acting invalidates his responses and undercuts his relationships gave me pause. If Vizh is indeed play acting, you have a good point. But perhaps Crystal only thought he was play acting. What do you make of his tear on the final page?

Exactly HWW. The tear is a nod to the reader of what was going on. Crystal doesn't see it and may never be sure. The tear shows Crystal's summation of events is correct. The Vision is pretending to be the way he is. His responses to the others on everything are filtered to let them only see an emotionally detached android. I can think of a number of reasons why he would feel the need to do this. But that he's doing it at all, makes him very suspect. It bears watching if there's any further developments with Crystal.



I was trying to express this with my "Despite having no emotional attachment, the Vision seems only too eager to please all the time" line. There is absolutely no reason why someone with no attachments, loyalties or emotion response would stay or go or do anything over anything else. He stays and goes like a Plot Puppy. Unless there are things going on under the hood. Which brings us back towards the first point.

Your explanation clarifies some of my own thoughts, thoth. Ironically, in 351, Vision admits to a group of Avengers and Starjammers that he had experienced an emotional outburst earlier in the story--yet the incident he's referring to may have simply been a measure to defuse a potentially volatile situation.

There are contradictions in Vizh's behavior. As you note, he seems to be serving as a "plot puppy" (great term), fetching whatever object the writer needs at that particular point in the story.