Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

A few random comments:



Actually, it goes all the way back to issue # 2, when the Hulk quit.



Agreed. Based your and Fanfie's comments, it seems that Harras didn't want Cap around. If this is true, then the lineup may have been intended to be innovative if none of the Big Three were regular players. The presence of Cap (mandated by TPTB or otherwise) and Alt+Thor negated that aspect.

Perhaps the notion that this lineup was intended to be innovative was drawn from parallels with # 16, in which a true membership shakeup occurred. All of the remaining original Avengers--Giant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man and Thor--left, leaving Cap to front a new team consisting of Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. To replace Marvel's Big Guns with second-stringers (all of whom had been villains before) was truly revolutionary and the kind of thing Marvel could get away with at the time since it was still a small company and a distant second in popularity to juggernaut DC. Innovation becomes much harder when a company is the leader in its industry and there's a tendency to play it safe.

If Cap and Alt+Thor had been gracefully allowed to go their separate ways, we would have been left with only the Vision as one of the team's mainstays (though Hercules had arguably been a mainstay for quite some time). Perhaps that was the intent--to break with the past--even though it didn't work out that way.

Brilliant comparison between the Harras Avengers and TMK, by the way.



I'm not sure that TMK "torpedoed" the Legion concept. Rather, they tried to salvage it by moving it in a new direction. And, to some extent, I think they succeeded by showing the possibilities in which Legion's universe could grow.

If anything sank the Legion as a concept, it was Crisis and the removal of Superboy.

I was thinking more of the wholesale line up changes for my post. Just like the innovative one you cite with Pietro, Wanda and Clint - and the group size too.




With the Avengers, any incoming writer after #375 could simply replace Dane & Sersi with a couple of "big gun" members or do a traditional shuffle and no one would be able to tell.

Following Giffen's destruction of the Earth and the age jump of the entire cast, it's a little harder to get the genie back into the bottle.

The TMK Legion took the book further in a different direction. Unfortunately, it meant that if it didn't work out, it was harder to get back to the normal status quo that books like so much.

That's really what I meant by "torpedoed." More in the result of the changes and the size of them rather than anything to do with their aims for the run.

Fickles had picked up on my comment on diluting concepts such as Erin. I was alluding to Giffen simply wanting her dead ( in a plot driven way). That would have prevented everything that happened and would have made for a better opening arc.

Thanks for the clarification, Thoth.

No probs. I'm about done with the run. I'd only pulled up to #375 out of storage (or #374 as I had to get the "special" issues to do reviews). I'm sure I don't have all/many of the issues up to the Busiek/ Perez relaunch.

Well, as I've said before, 375 is THE place to stop.

Not that I won't enjoy reviewing 379 after He Who reviews 378.

And, here 'tis . . .

Avengers 378 (September 1994)
“Echoes of History”

So, we’ve finally made it to the last issue of Avengers Volume I that I ever bought. My first reaction is . . . man, that’s a mighty buff looking Vision on the cover! Do you suppose he’s been working out with Hercules?

Bob Harras returns with a new storyline involving a Shi’ar castaway and his ancient enemy. Stewart Johnson subs on pencils, but with faithful Tom Palmer handling the inks, it hard to notice much difference between Johnson’s art style and Epting’s. In some ways, I prefer Johnson’s as it boldly and clearly tells the story without some of Epting’s weaknesses (exaggerated gritting teeth for example, although the image of Pietro on Page 23 appears to show Johnson aping Image’s style of dramatic teeth and locks).

The story itself is passably fair. It sets up the new antagonist and contains a few surprises, such as Deatchry and Admiral Alabar’s differing accounts of Shi’ar history. Not for the first time in his run has Harras tapped into Star Trek-style science fiction themes, and they work pretty well here, although the Avengers once again appear to be afterthoughts in a larger story that does not concern them.

The Vision and his three guests—Deathcry, Magdalene, and Swordsman—arrive at an island off of Scotland, where they find the Avengers’ tracking station wrecked (in Star Trek terms, this would be a Federation outpost) and dampening field in place that prevents them from contacting the rest of the team back in Manhattan. Deathcry is shot (but quickly recovers) by one of the locals, who conveniently dies before giving the team much useful information (someone say, “He’s dead, Vizh!”). However, Deathcry notices a wrecked alien ship nearby, and it turns out to have a survivor—Admiral T’Kyll Alabar (a distant cousin of T’Kyll Amockingbird, perhaps?), a Shi’ar legend who was sent into suspended animation 1200 years ago keep in check the ship’s other occupant, a warlord with the unimaginative title of the Butcher.

This by-the-books plotting is redeemed somewhat by T’Kyll’s account of why he was sent into space, which differs from the more heroic account Deathcry has been taught. I always appreciate it when we learn more about our heroes—presidents, generals, or random celebrities—than the narrative we’ve been forced to swallow since we were children. It’s not that I revel in tawdry tales (though sometimes I do), but humanizing such figures makes them more real and their great deeds more attainable. Also, such knowledge helps dispel our notions that the Good Guys Always Win and We Are the Good Guys. A more realistic view of history can keep people from having a distorted, rosy view of themselves and their culture.

So, I can sympathize with Deathcry’s reluctance to accept the admiral’s version of events; it would be like Jesus Christ coming back and telling a faithful believer that all those miracles he performed were pretty much First Century PR. (I’m not saying they were, but you get the idea.)

However, even this plotline feels like it belongs in another book. Deathcry is a very new addition to the Avengers, and we haven’t got to know her well yet, except for her snarky attitude, so this attempt to make us care about her comes across as a little forced. (In Star Trek terms, she and Alabar would be the guest stars of the week.)

Meanwhile, one of the other locals sees what’s going on and abandons his post to inform the Butcher, who has enthralled his remote community. We know the Butcher is the bad guy because after thanking the local for informing him, he executes the local for abandoning his post. Locals. You just can’t find good slaves who can be two places at once.

The Butcher and his race, we are told, emit a pheromone that instantly causes others to want to serve them. When the Butcher confronts the Vision and the rest with an army of locals, he makes short work of enslaving the Swordsman and Magdalene (who are in this story for no other reason) and capturing the Vision. Only Alabar and a reluctant Deathcry escape to plot their next move.

As I said, this is pretty much by-the-numbers plotting: not bad, but not exceptional either.

We also get a two-page interlude of the other Avengers back at their restored mansion. The only thing of note here is that Pietro attempts to reconcile with Crystal but is rebuffed—she “needs more time,” she says, while planning a memorial service for the Black Knight and Sersi (who, after all, aren’t dead—just living in another dimension). There is so much going on in this scene that does not reflect favorably on Crystal. If Harras has accomplished nothing else, he’s made me care about Pietro for the first time ever.

So, that’s it. It wasn’t a horrible story, and certainly this story alone didn’t cause me to drop the Avengers back in 1994. I think I dropped the book for several reasons, including having moved to a new city to attend graduate school and not being able to afford comics for awhile. Even when I could afford them again, I did not return to the Avengers. It wasn’t that this run was so terribly bad (though it’s far from one of my favorites), but that I realized the stories really weren’t going anywhere, that the necessity to publish a new issue every month (or more than once a month) resulted in a lot of dreck between nuggets of gold, and that the gold itself was really gold plate—resembling something genuine that had been done better, or at least seemed fresher, in an earlier era.

Coincidentally, Avengers 378 was cover-dated September 1994, the 31st anniversary of the book. It was also the month I turned 31, and one month shy of the 21st anniversary of Avengers 116, the first issue I ever bought. Perhaps it was just time to move on.

Nicely done review, He Who. I mostly agree with you on the pros and cons of this particular issue, except for Johnson being better than Epting; I think Johnson's layout and storytelling are less exciting than Epting's.

And thanks for undertaking this project in the first place, especially considering your busy schedule. As I said before, you and Thoth have helped me to understand better why this run is so polarizing, and in the end I actually came out loving it more than ever.

I'll review 379 sometime tomorrow, and that'll put a bow on the wrap up.

Then we can all go back to discussing Hickman's Avengers [sarcasm] YAY [/sarcasm]

Epting's layouts during 372-375 were phenomenal. I can't recall any other instances of his page designs standing out (though I'm sure there were other instances). I speculate that in the Proctor story, both he and Harras had time to brainstorm, outline, write, and revise--the basic process of all writing--hence the fill-ins which preceded the arc. Their earlier efforts seemed more rushed.

By the way, in terms of being emotionally attached to the Avengers stories we first encountered (which Fanfie and I both are to a degree), I came across this review of Avengers 116. It's a very negative review--and I agree with most of it. I still love the comic to pieces, but, in terms of story telling, it certainly is flawed.

Thanks for sharing that, He Who. I think we can all do with the occasional challenge to the things we treasure.

By the way, if you browse "Steve's" site, you'll see lots of reviews of other comics, including the Avengers and the Legion. It's a fun site. I just spent a couple of delightful hours jumping around it.

AVENGERS 379

In which:

- Deathcry learns the full extent of T'Kyll Alabar's less-than-honorable deeds during the Shi'ar-Mephistoid War (including the mass murder of an abbey of innocent female Mephistoids.)

- The Kree Renegades from Avengers 364-366 return, and turn out to be the ones who caused T'Kyll's ship to crash-land and freed the Mephistoid known as the Butcher.

- Underhanded strategy from T'Kyll frees the Vision, at the cost of T'Kyll's life. Deathcry uses Magdalene's staff to destroy the Butcher in return.

- The Kree Renegades retreat, planning to use the information they have learned to foment rebellion amongst their people against their Shi'ar rulers.

- At the end, Deathcry, all her illusions about the glory of the Shi'ar empire shattered, broods alone atop a hill.

If a reader enjoyed the previous Harras-written issues of the Avengers, she or he will probably enjoy this one, too. It sets up a promising plot thread (which, unfortunately, was never followed up on) while explaining the origins of the conflict between the Shi'ar and the Mephistoids, the race that Hepzibah, the would-be assassin from 350-51, comes from, a nice tying together of things in my opinion.

This issue suffers from subpar art which deteriorates which each successive page until Johnson/Palmer gives way to a different art team who were obviously rushed.

I consider this issue to be the last half-decent Harras Avengers issue. I don't know the specific ways and wherefores as to the steep decline in Harras' writing from 380 on, although I am aware that working conditions at Marvel in general were hellish from late 1994 through mid-1997, and Avengers went down the drain along with the rest of the company's line.

In my mind, Avengers has never recovered. I haven't fully enjoyed an issue of the book since 375, more than 20 years ago. The moral grey areas and rich exploration of relationships between flawed characters under the Harras/Epting team gave way to, in order of succession:

1. Rudderless confusion (the remainder of the Harras run plus the short-lived contributions of Ben Raab and Mark Waid at the end of Volume 1)

2. Crass hackwork (the 13-issue Volume 2, with various creators supervised initially by Rob Liefeld and then Jim Lee.)

3. Toothless nostalgia (the Busiek run that made up the bulk of Volume 3)

4. More rudderless confusion (the short Johns and Austen runs)

5. Crass sensationalism mixed with icky nostalgia (Bendis)

6. And, finally, coldly mechanical overplotting (Hickman, whose run concludes in May 2015)

Whatever the flaws of the Harras/Epting run, it is my opinion that all the runs which followed pale besides theirs. I think the first half of the 90s was the last time that creators at Marvel had enough breathing room to do their jobs well. Marvel has, over the last two decades,become stiflingly corporate and market-driven, promoting the illusion of change more shamelessly than ever. I'm not optimistic about the Avengers under whoever Hickman's successor turns out to be. I don't think there will ever be another run I enjoy as much as the Harras/Epting run, and I'm gradually learning to accept that.

At least we have the Marvel movies to enjoy.

Thanks for wrapping up the reviews, Fanfie.

It sounds like 379 may have been more interesting than I thought, if only for the revelations regarding Alabar's past. It's a shame he died. He sounds like a very interesting, nuanced, and flawed character who should have been explored more.

I notice that the Avengers themselves are absent from your commentary. Am I to take it that they didn't do much this issue either?

It's nice to learn where Hepzibah was from.

I never read the Liefeld/Lee run, though I recall the art looking horribly bad (it's Liefeld, after all). I picked up the first 19 issues of Busiek/Perez--"toothless nostalgia" is an apt description. By the time Ultron came around, I realized I'd read it all before.

In summation of Harras/Epting: When I began these reviews, I remembered very little of their run, and now I know why: While there were some gold nuggets, as I mentioned above, there was also an awful lot of dreck (mostly in the form of fill-ins) that tried my patience from month to month. I was also undergoing several major life changes that caused me to re-evaluate the habit of collecting comics, which I had indulged in for more than 20 years.

There comes a point where a habit becomes an addiction, and an addiction is never positive, no matter how I chose to believe otherwise. I think I reached the point of addiction long before Harras/Epting, and that may be why it took so long to drop the title. Plus, I was a stickler for numbers in those days, and wanted to pass the Avengers' 30th anniversary and my own 20th as a reader. There was always hope that things would get better.

Still, even though Harras/Epting was generally not my cup of Darjeeling, I'm glad I undertook this re-read. There were a lot of excellent ideas, including Sersi/Black Knight and Crystal's evolution. There were also some wonderful science fiction themes, as embodied by the Brethren and Alabar. If these ideas could have been better organized and tightened--eliminating the dreck and drawn-out story telling--I might have remembered the run fondly.

I agree that T'ykll should have survived. One important detail I neglected to mention in my review is that he admits to his misdeeds in front of the Butcher, then hands the Butcher a weapon and asks the Butcher to either kill him or forgive him. Of course, the Butcher takes the first option. So even if T'ykll's legend concealed a sordid reality, in the end he did have a sense of honor. This could have been explored further in the storyline that Harras was obviously planning but never got to tell.

So...modern Avengers.

Another Secret Wars on the horizon. [sarcasm]YAY![/sarcasm]

One Avenger killed another Avenger in the most recent issue. It's hard for me to care, because everybody comes back from the dead these days, but it's still annoying because I love the character who got killed.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/01...s-another-avenger-as-secret-wars-begins/

I now officially hate you, Hickman.

I've long since bailed on all Avengers titles, which are crap right now--very much like the X-titles of the latter half of the last decade.

But if its any consolation, knowing Hickman's annoying habits, this character will be back alive before his run ends, under the guise of a masterplan coming to fruition. No less annoying though.

Thanks, Cobie.

bad time for me to be looking to read the start of Hickman's Avengers run

LOL

New article in which writer Jay Faerber recommends the Harras/Epting/Palmer era in question. Not all that much article...more showing of sample pages.

Thanks, Lardy.

It's basically an abbreviated version of an "Under the Influence" entry in an issue of Faerber's Dynamo 5 (#19 to be exact, if anyone wants to read the whole thing.) But I'm always happy to see the run get attention.

Well, if nothing else, it's the second time in the last few months that an article on that era has appeared in my FB news feed. If it keeps getting attention, maybe we'll get that Omnibus some day. And if it's published, I promised to check it out!

That would be so great!

And thanks for being open to trying it, Lardy.

You must not remember, but I already told you I'd try it during the midst of these discussions--IF it's ever collected that is!

I do remember. I just felt like thanking you again.