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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
He Who Wanders #859191 07/11/15 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders

Given how fast technology changes today, this is oddly prophetic.


I'm just bitter because of the walking money I sent into the Legion Communicator Barrette crowdfunder. It said it was from Naltor. I didn't realise it was Dream Boy behind it rather than Nura. Bah!


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #859875 07/14/15 03:47 PM
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SUPERBOY 191

In his introduction to the Archive, Cockrum notes that this is the first of his Legion stories where he did his own inks, Anderson having become too tied up with work of his own. Cockrum adds that because he was constantly second-guessing his own inking, the amount of white-out that he used on this one single short story became an in-joke among Legion fandom.

And although the second-guessing shows in the inconsistency of the linework, I still believe this to be not only the first fully satisfying Cockrum/Bates collaboration, but also the best Legion story since the late-period Adventure era. Unlike "Murder the Leader" or Bridwell's "Brotherly Hate", this story actually benefits from the lower page count, with solid structure and tight pacing and good use of a small cast, my girl Shadow Lass getting one of her few moments of glory during the Bronze Age.

It's all the more impressive to me because neither the protagonist, Sun Boy, nor the antagonist, Dr. Zaxton Regulus, are favorites of mine. However, most of Sun Boy's worst behavior was during the Levitz and TMK eras, many years from this story, and in addition, I'm coming to like Dirk better the more I write him in the Every-Boot stories. But as for Regulus, despite his cool science-fictiony moniker and his wonderful orange-popsicle-colored armor (slightly tweaked here by Cockrum to such good effect that it would become the definitive version of the armor) he's never ascended to the heights of a real love-to-hate villain to me (not long ago, Legion World's own Harbinger cleared it all up for me when she pointed out quite rightly that Regulus' obsessive blame towards and hatred of Sun Boy is more than a bit creepy.) In the end, though, I think "Attack of the Sun-Scavenger" is good enough to be more than just another Dirk vs. Regulus story.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #859905 07/14/15 05:12 PM
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The artwork does shine (pun not intended), Cockrum's insecurities notwithstanding. This is an action story, and there are a number of stand-out shots of the characters fighting each other. I, too, like Regulus's redesigned costume ("orange-popsicle-colored," heh).

The story is competent but not very memorable. Whereas "Murder the Leader" had a definite character arc and showed that Mon had changed by the end of the story, nothing like that happens for Dirk. He remains the same throughout, and we don't learn much about him--except that he collects sculpture, a hobby I don't recall ever being mentioned again.

There's nothing wrong with a by-the-books action story. But it would be nice to feel that the events depicted in the story were worthwhile: the world has been saved, the hero has learned something about himself, etc. It can be a subtle change, not necessarily an earth-shaking one. But there should be something different at the end of the story. Nothing like that happens here. A villain is defeated, but that's routine.

However, the story does have considerable strengths. It recaps Dirk's origin for new readers. (Curiously, Zarl Hendricks has been edited out of this version.) It also shows the Legion acting more as a team than the previous story did, with Shady, Garth, and Cos all getting some action in.

And, of course, there's the gorgeous Cockrum art, which develops the futuristic look of the Legion's world with an alien sculpture that truly does look alien and impressive shots of the new Legion cruiser. There are also subtle touches such as Bouncing Boy holding his belly after (we presume) consuming a huge feast and Timber Wolf's hair and eyebrows, which hint at his impending feral transformation.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #859908 07/14/15 05:22 PM
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Good point about the lack of a character arc, He Who. That honestly had never occurred to me before, I guess because on every read including this one, I was so taken with the story's considerable surface pleasures.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #859918 07/14/15 06:29 PM
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Superboy 191

Sun Boy is 11?! No, he’s 17-18 and we’ve just had a pointless glimpse of future lingo. We get Necro crystals instead of funeral wreaths later.

When Shady tells him “Wait’ll you see the present we have for you!” Dirk is thinking it’ll be a blonde in a cake. Instead, he gets Regulus in a sculpture. What a disappointment. I’m surprised that every time Dirk invited someone up to see his sculptures, he was actually telling the truth.

The dialogue creaks like heat stress on the Legion’s birthday table during their encounter with the doctor. The battle ends in a rather clichéd way too. This cliché would later be personified in Devlin O’Ryan.

The story shifts with Regulus dying as a result of his attack. Dirk pulls his old order barking routine to ensure that he alone carries out the doctor’s last wishes. Cosmic Boy says he understands, and makes a mental note to contact Dirk’s therapist as soon as he’s gone.

It’s just as well that Regulus’ plan is so obvious. Had he actually have been dead, Shady (called Shadow here) and Garth would have burnt to a crisp in the Arion star. A star it turns out was created by Regulus. That sounds like he has tremendous genius, until you realise he probably swiped it from RJ.

Regulus’ reason for being near the star and for attacking the Legion is pretty flimsy. It’s one step up from a random attack for the sake of it.

Why try to get back to the star under his own power, when you can encase yourself in a sculture and wait until Sun Boy’s birthday?

The art saves the story again. The use of Shadow Lass’ powers and the battle at the star are particularly memorable.

We get another look at the Sun Boy/ Regulus conflict. I can’t recall if there was supposed to be another assistant with Dirk that distracted Regulus, or if it was a 5YG addition. Despite his complete lack of attention to health and safety regulation, I always felt some sympathy with him. He’s clearly under a lot of pressure, and it’s the distraction at a critical stage that causes the accident. Regulus didn’t intend for it to happen, but it ruined him. I’ve always imagined Dirk (with or without friend) ignoring a warning sign outside the lab as they enter with their equipment. Perhaps with better man management Dirk’s father could have avoided Regulus getting into that position. But perhaps that lack is a Morgna family trait.

Although he becomes a fall back stock villain who has little success, he does provide the book with a villain who has a personal grudge against one member. There’s Lightning Lord, but Dirk and Regulus have no family ties, and the hatred is less complicated.






"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
thoth lad #859926 07/14/15 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad

I can’t recall if there was supposed to be another assistant with Dirk that distracted Regulus, or if it was a 5YG addition.



The second assistant, Zarl Hendricks, is shown in the original origin story in Adventure 348. Zarl was killed in the blast, which made Regulus responsible for much more than an experiment gone wrong.

I like your idea that Dirk and Zarl had barged into a place where they shouldn't have been. This would mean Regulus was a scapegoat for Morgna's shoddy management and safety protocols. All the more reason to hate Dirk.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860031 07/15/15 03:20 PM
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I think it's a combination of both parties, which adds some extra complexity to both origins.

Regulus was always on the brink of proving himself, only to always be let down by his own personality. Since regulus also means a petty sovereign, a lot of his personality is in his name. Putting a man like that into any company where he’s not the boss, would be an endless source of malicious thoughts for him. Anything, no matter how minor, not going his way would be a slight. The more he tries to prove himself as the best, the more those personality flaws would become evident. That leads to short cuts. He’s too self-absorbed to worry about the health and safety of others. Especially at the moment of yet another possible triumph, where he will show everyone that he’s a genius.

It's not that Dirk isn't smart, it's just that he's there more because of his father than his own merits or personality would dictate. Perhaps he's a little careless, but he's young. No doubt he tries to do the best thing, but there's also little doubt his ego is stroked by being the boss' kid. Perhaps that results in the occasional lapse. Like walking in on an experiment.

The result is one death and the destruction of a lab. There's no doubt Morgna senior would try to protect his son regardless. Perhaps this is valid, in that Regulus should have taken more precautions. But there's always going to be some cloud over Dirk for his part in it and for his family’s influence over the company where it happened. An example of how much influence could be seen in Morgna senior's 5YG depiction.

Regulus feels that his career has been ruined. Once again he feels that he’s had glory snatched from him. While he’ll always have had some excuse, this time he has something a little more tangible. He blames Dirk. A kid who will walk into taking over a company. A kid who’s confidence seems to make everything come so easily to him. Everything Regulus always strives for but never seems to get. Dirk is a very convenient way for Regulus to displace all those years of never getting his own way by blaming Dirk for ruining that last, great experiment.

Regulus never got past that. A guy who could create artificial suns (or at least pinch Brande's work and use it) never realised how free he should have become as a super villain. He was free of having to slave for people he couldn't stand. He could have left all those shackles behind him, and embraced any number of avenues of villainy. But he couldn’t get past the pettiness in his name and always returned for vengeance.

It's not as though Dirk worked out as a great leader. There was the mutiny where he showed the influences of both Regulus and his father. The pettiness of his nemesis and the entitlement that he took from Morgna snr. There was his time as 5yg leader. He seemed to show a lack of inspirational fire that didn’t help keep the group together and a lack of skills to get the team off Earth or to defeat their opponents. That lack of fire could be found in someone who perhaps received an easy path from a parent, and found things difficult to deal with when they didn’t come easily. Perhaps Dirk didn’t quite outgrow Regulus’ judgement of him or outrun that cloud following the accident.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860032 07/15/15 03:41 PM
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I love your thoughts, thoth. smile You've nailed Regulus and Dirk.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860033 07/15/15 03:58 PM
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Very nice of you to say so HWW. Thanks.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860114 07/16/15 10:19 AM
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Superboy #191

This story is another step in right direction as Cary Bates gives Dave something more to work with. It still isn’t anything brilliant though, with the gorgeous art once again holding up a fairly weak story. But it’s getting there inch by inch.

Cockrum is on fire here: his action is awesome, his figures are bold and exciting. Dr. Regulus never looked this good before or after, and the page layouts are well thought out. Page 6, with some panels not having borders and page 7, depicting a cosmic setting of sun and stars, are glorious.

The plot is again a straight forward action story utilizing a classic LSH villain. But once again it relies on a "twist" you'd commonly see in a jerry Siegel Superboy story from the late 50's that just doesn't ring true, and makes the characters look like idiots. As I’ve said before, I liked those kind of twists a decade earlier. By now the art and atheistic has changed and Bates needs to change with it. It's not a bad story, and he's getting better, but there's no doubt Dave is making these stories special.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860128 07/16/15 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Page 6, with some panels not having borders and page 7, depicting a cosmic setting of sun and stars, are glorious.


Agreed 100%.

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Dr. Regulus never looked this good before or after


I think he looked at least equally as good when Greg LaRocque drew him in Baxter Legion #15.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860137 07/16/15 01:06 PM
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Now that you've posted it, I have to definitely agree. I also think there is more than a little Cockrum influence in LaRocque's art there, and I like it. I could read a LaRocque story all day long and its too bad he doesn't have any ongoing comics these days.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860139 07/16/15 01:11 PM
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Also, I have to say I love all the commentary on this story and the insight to Dirk and Regulus. Dirk was never among my favorites though he was the star of my favorite LSH story (Mutiny of the Legionnaires); that all kind of changed in recent times when we did a reread of the Adventure Era. I really just love his depiction there, and that is really enhanced by the tragedy of Mutiny. His role in the Legion is forever changed after that, as his screen time is decreased--it's almost inferred that he always had confidence problems after that and never was willing to rise to the level of being a leader among his peers again.

This could easily tie into his womanizing ways in Levitz's era as many womanizers I've known over the years clearly have major confidence and self-esteem issues they are trying to over-compensate for. This could be how Dirk's problems psychologically presented themselves.

While I'm a big fan of TMK, I would really have loved to see Dirk overcome these issues in the longterm. Where he would set aside his juvenile need for sexual conquest and instead apply that drive to being a great leader of the Legion again, coming full circle as a better, stronger Legionnaire.

(And I've always thought he could do it with the help of a great friend like Salu, who I've also always felt was secretly one of his best friends since they joined around the same time).

Sun Boy is a fascinating character in Legion lore and its a shame that after 1989 he has continually gotten shorted.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860179 07/16/15 09:01 PM
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I love the commentary on Dirk and Regulus, too. It's fascinating to see different interpretations of these characters.

You know, my perceptions of Sun Boy were very different from some others'. I grew up on the Bates/Cockrum and Grell periods, and Sun Boy was just the guy who could radiate heat and light. There was no hint of womanizing or any other defect in his character. I think that's why I liked him so much: He had an awesome power and an awesome costume, and not much personality. (As a kid, I was less interested in such things. smile ) The one time he revealed any personality trait was in Superboy 208, when he confessed that he felt uncomfortable being left in charge while Mon-El was away. I felt uncomfortable being a leader, too, so I identified with him all the more.

Yet Sun Boy was clearly prominent--a star of the Legion, so to speak. In the Legion Handbook, several of the covers depicted therein feature him prominently. His origin story is repeated verbatim from his dialogue in Adv. 348. Clearly, Sun Boy was special.

By the time his womanizing behavior had started to develop, he was already firmly entrenched into my pantheon of favorite Legionnaires. Comics being what they were at the time--sanitized depictions of human behavior--I saw his actions as more playful than anything else, like an eternal adolescent who simply hadn't grown up. It's fascinating to see how this perception of Dirk fits into thoth's analysis above.

5YL certainly took a much darker look at Dirk's behavior and the ramifications thereof, but it all made sense. By then, I'd watched enough real friends and relatives go down dark paths not to accept it, as heartbreaking as it was. I think this is one of the strengths of the Legion: Though many different writers were involved over the decades, there was enough integrity in the characters that some writers (like TMK) were able to connect the dots and take things in an unexpected but thoroughly logical direction.

They also gave us plenty of dots to connect ourselves.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #860230 07/17/15 04:55 AM
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These comments opened my view of this story. I never liked the Regulus stories (apart from the idea of radioactive gold) but have a new perspective on them based on the above comments.

It's hard to sort out my original feelings about Sun Boy after all these years of stories giving him a dark side, but there's some yearning that he could have remained the golden boy of the Baxter era, capable, a womanizer but not a cad, unspoiled by a wealthy upbringing, a strong scientist and maturing into a balanced man.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #861073 07/21/15 08:01 AM
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SUPERBOY 193

Cockrum considered this story to be his artistic turning point. As he explained it, in between Superboy 191 and 193, he had gotten a job from Marvel inking a few issues of Avengers, two of which were pencilled by John Buscema. According to Cockrum, Buscema's pencils inspired his own layouts and choreography to new heights. I've always loved that anecdote, because Big John Buscema is my favorite comic book artist of all time. It's also worth noting that Cockrum's signature inking style established itself here, with its bold, smooth lines. And, finally, of course, this is the first story where Cockrum began giving the Legionnaires new looks; here, the lucky recipients of makeovers are Chameleon Boy, Shrinking Violet, Karate Kid, and Duo Damsel. Contrary to what some people believe, Cockrum did not try to give Matter-Eater Lad a new costume, because he liked the old one -- what happened was that the colorist mistakenly made it red instead of green.

By now, I'm sure you've noticed I haven't said much about the story. That's because, unlike the art, I think the script is a step back. It appears to me like Bates and Boltinoff couldn't quite decide whether to write down to their intended audience of kids, or to respect the kids' intelligence the way that the best stories of the Weisinger era had done. So we get what I consider a rather half-assed anti-war story, with the rulers of two sides of a planet reduced to acting like brawling schoolboys (having said that, the story would sadly seem to predict the immature public behavior of heads of state and politicians in the early 21st Century.) As for spotlighted Legionnaire Duo Damsel, I think she looks lovely thanks to Cockrum, but comes off pretty badly overall, first walking into a trap set by one of the kings, and then failing to stop a remote control detonator from hitting the ground (but rest assured that no bombs go off, thanks to Chameleon Boy's competence and speediness.)

Dodgy scripts or not, by this time the Legion feature's popularity was on the rise thanks to Cockrum, who was at this point on the verge of starting to contribute much more than just the art, and things would get much better starting with the next story. Hint: Wildfire


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #861184 07/21/15 07:50 PM
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Good review, Fanfie. I think you're on target with the art's strengths and the story's weaknesses.

Bates had a knack for coming up with clever but sound-alike titles: "The Curse of the Blood Crystals," "The War of the Wraith-Mates," and, here, "The War Between the Nights and the Days." These titles suggest 1950s sci fi movies, and I can't help wondering if that's where he drew his inspiration from, and if that's why some of these stories seem so retro. I also can't help wondering if he (or Boltinoff) came up with the story title first and then wrote the story around it. If so, that would explain why there isn't much to offer here, except another gimmick.

The gimmick this time is Duo Damsel's new costume. Unlike the previous costume changes, this one actually serves the needs of the plot, albeit in a flimsy manner. Being able to split into an orange and a purple costume allows her passage into each of the warring kingdoms. Apparently, the kings are so gullible that they will allow any strange looking alien who happens to wear the right color to approach them and not even check her for weapons.

I don't mind the heavy-handed antiwar rhetoric, though. I liken this story to "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" from the original Star Trek series. "Battlefield" was so obvious in its antiwar sentiment--the two warring aliens are black on one side of their faces and white on the other, but on opposite sides--yet it left an enormous impression on ten-year-old me. It showed the utter stupidity that hatred can cause, and how the differences we use as excuses for war (racial, religious, political, etc.) can look small and petty to outsiders. It also showed that once society starts down that path of hatred and aggression, it is hard to stop before it leads to total destruction.

In that context, I can enjoy the child-like simplicity of "The War Between the Nights and the Days." The horrific moment when King Lillt and King Jonn realize the latter's kingdom may very well have been destroyed seems genuine. I can buy it that these two child-like kings never expected their war to go that far. (In this respect, the story reminds me of another classic ST episode, "A Taste of Armageddon.") The tale ends on a hopeful, if naive, note of restored humanity. If only real political leaders could change their minds so quickly.

I hadn't thought about it before, but you're right: Lu doesn't come off well in this story. Luckily she had a male Legionnaire along to save the day. wink



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #861200 07/21/15 08:28 PM
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Thank you for the kind words, He Who. Thanks, too, for providing the context in which even a rather hokey allegory can work for a child as long as it's sincere. It appears that the Star Trek reruns of the early-mid 70s left as vivid an impression on you as the Transformers and GoBots cartoons of the mid-80s left on me. Have you ever considered doing a Star Trek retro review thread in the Anywhere Machine?

Oh, and regarding that last quip about Luornu needing a male Legionnaire to save the day, I can laugh heartily about it. The 70s were one weird, contradictory time for gender roles. lol


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Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 1 (COMPLETED)

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
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A Star Trek retro review has a certain appeal. I'd have to watch the episodes again and then find time to write the reviews. crazy


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #861252 07/22/15 08:24 AM
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Maybe you could postpone it until the Legion Re-Read reaches the Gerry Conway era.


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Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 1 (COMPLETED)

Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 2 (WORK IN PROGRESS)

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #862049 07/27/15 03:15 PM
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Just a reminder that, even though I'll be reviewing SUPERBOY 195 tomorrow night, it's never too late to chime in with your thoughts on SUPERBOY 193.


Read LEGIONS OF 7 WORLDS in the Bits forum:

Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 1 (COMPLETED)

Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 2 (WORK IN PROGRESS)

"Don't look for role models, girls, BE the role model."

- Legion World member HARBINGER
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #862098 07/27/15 08:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 484
in hiding
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in hiding
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Posts: 484
I think the whole orange/purple thing was a huge mistake. Lu is one of those characters who is most effective if the bad guys don't know what her abilities are, especially on an espionage mission (see Adventure 359-360).




First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. The rest is history.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #862101 07/27/15 08:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,347
Trap Timer
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Posts: 40,347
Agreed completely. It was cool for one story, but past the one-time gimmick, it didn't really work.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #862124 07/27/15 08:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
Yes, I feel the same way. Edmond Hamilton was so right when he said that she was difficult to write.


Read LEGIONS OF 7 WORLDS in the Bits forum:

Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 1 (COMPLETED)

Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 2 (WORK IN PROGRESS)

"Don't look for role models, girls, BE the role model."

- Legion World member HARBINGER
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #862130 07/27/15 08:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 83,579
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 83,579
Like the quote on the LW front page says smile

In the Reboot there was a time when Triad had to snoop around the Winathian government's records wing during a party honoring Spark. Spark was in costume. Out of necessity, Lu was not. One body stayed at the party while te other two snooped. She still got caught, but not because anyone recognized her as Triad.

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