Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

I can see where you're coming from, Cobie, but I've always chosen to look at the Stan/Jack relationship the way it has been described by Jack's friend and one-time assistant Mark Evanier: For the first few years it was a genuine collaboration, and then they had a falling-out over the Silver Surfer because they couldn't agree on how he should have been characterized as a solo character; that was why Jack stopped contributing new characters and the final two years or so of Jack's work for Marvel were comparatively lackluster. I've never believed the Stan-bashers who claim he contributed nothing, because, rather controversially, I am of the opinion that Jack's "one-man-band" work of the 1970s really needed both a firm outside editor and an articulate outside scripter. I do completely agree that Stan's early 1970s writing was generally weak -- although that racial tension storyline he did with John Romita Senior in Captain America was quite powerful IMO (he isn't credited on the final installment, though) -- and that burnout and a busy schedule were mainly to blame.



Well said, Cobie. And it's a pity that by the time they finally tried doing the FF without Reed & Sue, in the late 1980s, it was so badly done.

Speaking of re-reads, there's a blog I frequent that is about to embark on a massive Marvel re-read, and I thought some of you might possibly be interested in joining in the fun:

http://www.comicbookherald.com/last...b-reading-the-entire-marvel-u-in-a-year/

My ID at this blog is RJA.

*Dusting and clearing cobwebs*

*Cough, cough*

Wow, this thread hasn't been active at all so far this year!

Long story short, the Pre-Byrne FF ran out of steam not long after I stopped posting about it, and I had to drop out of the re-read at that blog early on for personal reasons. They're up to the mid-1970s now, and I feel it's too late for me to catch up.

So I was wondering if anyone would be interested in doing a re-read of some old favourites? Lardy, I noticed in your Pile of Trades thread that you've got the Byrne FF Omnibus. It so happens I've been thinking of borrowing the Byrne FF Visionaries trades from the library and re-evaluating that run. Would you like to do a Byrne FF re-read together, Lardy? I don't mind waiting til it's the ideal time for you.

I'd be up for that, as long as we don't have to read really big chunks at a time and maybe not be committed to reading the whole run straight-thru in the project--don't wanna get 'Byrned Out', so to speak!

me some Byrne FF!

Yay!

Thanks, Lardy!

And I totally agree on the conditions you set. "Byrned Out," LOL

Just let me know a few days in advance whenever you're ready to start, so I can order the library copies of the trades.

As you know, I'm a big Byrne fan, probably the most unabashed on these boards, so I guess I've been saving those Byrne Omnibuses for a special occasion! Shall we shoot for about April 20th to begin?

And Cobie or anyone else reading this is welcome to join in/comment/kibitz, as well!

Topic Title = Changed!

BTW, Ficques, I'm really happy/surprised that you chose to revisit this run, especially since I know that you hold Simonson's (admittedly awesome) FF run above all others!

April 20th sounds perfect!

Thanks, Lardy!

This is so exciting!

The reasons I've decided to revisit Byrne's FF run are partly because of something Cobie once said: That the reason he prefers Byrne FF to Simonson FF is that, in his opinion, Byrne captured the "feel" or the "essence" of the main characters better than Simonson did; and partly because most of what I managed to read of the post-Kirby, pre-Byrne FF was so underwhelming, that maybe I had sold Byrne short on what he was able to achieve.

I think, for me, it's that FF is (arguably) Byrne's seminal work, while it's hard for me to think of anything other than Thor as Simonson's. That may be unfair to both creators, but I think it's common thought on the matter.

I also think Byrne really worked the central dynamics of the team extremely well (even after the Thing left) while telling awesome stories, while Simonson told awesome stories but wasn't as on-point with the dynamic. That's not an insult. It's just a B+/A- compared to an A+ in that regard, something most non-Lee/Kirby creators have managed only a "C" in the best cases, imo, before or since.

Plus, there's sustainability. Byrne's much longer run vs. Simonson's substantial but still much shorter run.

Fair enough on all counts.

Simonson's FF is, in my opinion, what Morrison's JLA aspired, but ultimately failed, to be. Characterization did take a backseat in both cases, but I think Simonson did a far better job than Morrison of compensating with spectacle; and I think even if Morrison had had a better artist than Howard Porter (whose pre-JLA work on The Ray and Underworld Unleashed ran rings around his later work IMO), he still wouldn't have managed the oomph that comes so naturally to Simonson.

Man, I love Simonson. In fact, thinking about it my Pile has featured more among its pages of certain artists than any other: Grell, Byrne, Perez and Simonson. All undeniably classic artists and easily among my all-time favorites. In fact, I just obtained Walt's Star Slammers collection today to add to the Pile!

And, as I said, Walt still did pretty damned well with the dynamics and characterization. My memories of his run are somewhat dim, but I remember it always felt like an FF comic, so that's a high compliment, considering the dreck that has characterized most runs before since and between Byrne and Simonson. Plus, Walt's issue 352 (I think that's the one, looking at the cover online) may be the best single issue of the FF ever!

FF 352 is absolutely amazing, I agree. Certainly the greatest Reed vs Doom battle of all time.

Most definitely! I was pissed when I heard that it later got ret-conned out... (Don't know who did the ret-conning or how it was done.)

Also, re: Byrne, I wish he'd not left mid-storyline and had played out whatever plans he'd had (though I do think the final storyline was pretty nifty and was completed well by Stern and Ordway). I seriously doubt he'd planned to leave before FF 300. But I can't blame him for doing so for the opportunity to redefine Superman. Plus, something like landing the cover of Time Magazine was pretty much unheard-of for any comic I can think of up 'til that time.

He always said FF's the one book he'd go back to. I get that Byrne's not a particularly pleasant man, but Quesada should have given him and the fans a chance to see if we could go home again, especially given all the other creative failures on the book. I'd rather have seen that than so many so-called dream reunions we've seen with other creators and characters instead.

Re: Byrne on Superman, as I recall, one of the most enjoyable issues of Byrne's FF run is the one with Gladiator, which is basically a dry run for his work on Superman. When Gladiator got an entry in OHOTMU, it was quite appropriately penciled by Curt Swan.

Re: Byrne returning to FF, if Peter David and Fabian Nicieza can make returns-of-sorts to their defining Marvel works, I don't see why Byrne couldn't. I'm sure that the Marvel brain trust knows damn well that whenever they get around to bringing back the FF, it has to be done with fanfare.

Byrne's all but retired now, so I doubt it. I think all he's doing now are some Star Trek stories for IDW in which he's only using TOS stills to create new stories. I'm sure he could be lured out of retirement to do at least a one-shot, but while Quesada's in charge, I think it'll never happen. Quesada cancelled Byrne's last excellent Big 2 series (X-Men: The Hidden Years) just because he doesn't care for him (all behind a convenient excuse about it being different from the rest of the mutant line).

Yeah, it was obviously a dream project for him, even without the fame and fortune he got from it. I feel he admired Swan as well. The two did Superman: The Earth Stealers together.

I know a lot of people here hate Byrne for the damage his Superman revisions did to the LSH, but he did do a lot of nice work rebuilding and reimagining the Superman mythos. The work itself was very good and lead to even better things to come working from the foundation he left.

I had little interest in Pre Crisis Superman, but picked up around two years worth of post Crisis. I enjoyed them, and I'd be surprised if I didn't enjoy them now.

Since then, I've gone on to enjoy a number of much earlier Superman stories. But I don't think in consecutive issues, the way I did with Byrne.

Alpha Flight was another favourite, greedily bought in back issue stalls whenever I saw them.

Alpha Flight was my first-ever exposure to Byrne, so it will always remain a personal fave. Some X-men cameos on issue 1 hooked a friend, he showed me and the rest was history!

I'm actually the opposite. I love pre-Crisis Supes and LOATHE the majority of changes Byrne made to the franchise, especially the reversal of the Kal/Clark dynamic, but that's a discussion for another thread.

To each their own. I'm fully aware that Byrne's Superman revisions have a large share of detractors. Especially here among Legion fans.

Hey, Fick--will we start the re-read with issue 232...the official start of his run? Or will we be backtracking to his previous work with the FF, mostly with other writers, like the Omnibus does?

I would favour starting with #232. There's some nice stuff before it (Marvel Two-In-One #50 is particularly delightful), but it's mostly of academic interest.

I should mention that there was a late-1970s FF run of about two dozen issues, written first by Len Wein and then by Marv Wolfman, and drawn first by George Perez and then John Byrne, that's not bad at all, in my opinion (IIRC, the numbers are roughly #185-#213.) Of course, the eye-candy factor is a considerable one; it was nice seeing both Perez and Byrne inked by Joe Sinnott before he went into his self-admitted "just knocking out those inks" phase that lasted most of the 1980s. To be fair, he did do some nice work after he went into semi-retirement.

Yeah, the Omnibus includes 2-in-1 50, Team-Up 61-62 and FF 209-218 & 220-21. It's perfectly fair to leave those out of the project proper since they are not completely part of his official run and overall vision. I'll probably read those prior to the start date, though, and maybe offer a review as a sort of prelude.

That sounds great. A re-reads project of this magnitude deserves a prelude.