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Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
stile86 #945676 03/12/18 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stile86

This issue demonstrates quite forcefully an important fighting fact - never leap at your opponent, always wait for them to leap. Micro Lad leaps at Vi but she is ready for him and decks him. Radiation Roy leaps at Ayla who is surprised but uses a judo type move with a bit help from her weightloss powers to toss him. Mon-El leaps at Ol-Vir in an aggravated rage and at first has the upper hand but Ol-Vir quickly turns the table on him. In two cases it is the legionnaire who is ready and waiting while in the third Mon-El is letting his emotional frustration and fear of racial backlash overpower his judgement. I am not surprised that Ol-Vir gets the upper hand and Jo shows up as the better combatant.


Good catch, stile86. laugh

It never occurred to me to check the Interlac for meanings. It's nice to know Keith was still having fun. At least there's no "I killed Fred Hembeck."


Quote
Thoth's point about confusion over the two parties searching for Ayla resonates with my memories. After reading several black-and-white reprints in my youth, i restarted collecting and reading Legion with V4. The "anti-jumping on point" worked for me as I was intrigued enough to research the background and buy up all V3 and later v2. My memory says that I did find it confusing but still good enough to make me want to read more.


I recall being confused over this, as well. Paul and/or Keith were writing an different level than most comics writers did--not everything is spelled out, and you have to read carefully to figure out what's going on. Normally, I like that sort of writing which respects the reader's intelligence, but it's something I grew to like later. At the time, it left me scratching my head.


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Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
Fat Cramer #945678 03/12/18 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cramer
The longest bit of story was the fight against Ol-Vir. It was the least interesting to me, but it did show what a threat a Daxamite could be off-planet - and devoted to a cause. Nevertheless, I would have expected Lar to get the better of Ol-Vir, given his bigger size/muscles and experience - but the kid was needed by a higher calling, the LSV storyline. The other villains got scooped up like a bonus; Ol-Vir was the prize.


Considering things like MiracleMan and other evil Supermen, Ol-Vir had a lot of destructive/ anti-life potential. Not only against the Legion of heroes, but against the villains too. Some of it would have been interesting in exactly the way Superboy Prime wasn’t in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The opening-page mandala looks rather ugly, unlike usual mandala designs. It's also rather decrepit. Although it contains Legionnaire symbols, it must be old, possibly adapted by the LSV - or perhaps their evil intentions are incapable of making beautiful things.


Considering the foreshadowing that Levitz does, an earlier scene on Orando, where the Orakles reveal the centuries old mural might have been a nice touch. Probably at the time where Jacques appeared to the assembled there. Jeckie sees it as a sign, but the Oracles reveal they already knew about the ties she would have with the Legion. Something else else like that. Or Sculptor Lad. One of the two.

Originally Posted by Cramer
LSV Assemble! Mekt is putting the team together and it looks like it's going to be bigger and badder than ever. We don't know where their castle base is yet, but there have been hints that it's on Orando, since the same vortex snapped up Pharoxx several issues ago.


This story would be my introduction to nearly all of these villains, so I had a lot of interest in them. Some of which didn’t reflect how capable they were in previous stories.

Originally Posted by Cramer
I was rather stumped as to why Micro Lad is already free. He was put in a sens tank; presumably Imsk operates an eye for an eye justice system. It doesn't seem like much of a punishment for kidnapping and possibly treason, but I guess his character was wanted for the story - so, like Ol-Vir, Levitz sprung him from prison.


Perhaps either part of a bargain. You can suffer like your victims for a reduced term, or that the SP were caught putting him in a sens-tank and had to release him. The mind altering that we’ve seen in earlier stories doesn’t seem to work on these guys.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The cover doesn't really relate to the stories within, but it does suggest the Legion is breaking into new territory with this Baxter publication.

I think that’s exactly it. The Legion version of Black Canary’s introduction and new costume.


Originally Posted by HWW
I’ve been trying to think of something to say about this issue, and I really don’t have much. Despite the expanded storytelling offered by the new format and the freedom from newsstand constraints in the art, it reads like a typical revenge story. Some liberties are taken—Jo fails to save a security officer (a first!)—but the main action and subplots offer nothing terribly new. If anything, it feels like a decompressed beginning to an epic storyline, but the Great Darkness Saga benefited precisely because it was more compressed. This issue is all buildup.


Interesting look at the pacing. I quite liked the build up throughout the issue. With each scene (apart from Gim) interlinking previous subplot with the LSV one, it didn’t feel as though it was build up for the sake of it, but rather progression on each plot.

Originally Posted by HWW
The fact that this scene is set in a medieval castle went over my head the first I time I read the story—a villain’s got to be somewhere, so why not a castle?


I doubt I knew too much about Orando when I first read this. I thought the castle would have been more strongly linked with the oath. That it was a place where such contracts were drawn…in blood.

Originally Posted by HWW
There are some nice touches, though, such as Nura using her power to anticipate the robot’s moves, and an all-new, all-aggressive Violet being called in to show Mirco Lad what she thinks of his role in her kidnapping and sens-tank experience months ago. But these scenes stop short of providing a cathartic release for Vi and the reader because Micro Lad has to be rescued by a vortex! The LSV aren’t picky on who they recruit.


Micro Lad would have been a villain that I would have read fairly early on, so having him as the first villain provided a link to newer readers. I think the other most recetn option would have been to have The Prophet sign up to the LSV. So a good choice with Micro Lad.

I was also a little disappointed that Micro Lad was taken from Vi’s grasp. I agree it did prevent some closure. I guess we could have had him being picked up from jail afterwards, along with a few others. But I can’t argue with having it done as shown, form a pacing & space point of view.

Originally Posted by HWW
Then we catch up with Mon-El and the others on Daxam. It’s a nice scene that reminds us of how much damage Lar’s people caused when they were enslaved during the Great Darkness. They are now regarded with suspicion and fear, much like Durlans. This is another plot line that, in hindsight, I wish could have been developed further. In the preboot, it was never addressed why more Daxamites weren’t running around the galaxy, making use of the powers granted to them by yellow suns. Now that Mon’s people have seen that they can indeed be powerful elsewhere, it’s a wonder that only the zealot Ol-Vir decided to take advantage of that opportunity.


Were the Daxamites isolationist even back in the Adventure days? The real reason is probably the Superman Office. Can’t be having …um… legions of Daxamites running around with access to Time Bubbles. Probably just as well considering post Crisis and the Superman v4 tantrums. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
Ol-Vir is becoming my favorite new Legion villain: the snotty kid everyone wants to punch in the face. However, this snotty kid has all of Mon’s powers and a zealous devotion to his dark god. He’s become radicalized, in modern parlance—and this makes him extremely dangerous and unsettling; there is simply no reasoning with someone who is willing to murder for his god. Ol-Vir’s age makes him even more unsettling; when a kid commits murder—as we’ve seen all too often in recent times—it upends all of our expectations of order in the universe.


nod

Originally Posted by HWW
There are other scenes—Ayla is confronted and captured by Radiation Roy (though the demonstration of his power made me think Sun Emperor was nearby), a private investigator hired by Timber Wolf discovers Ayla’s whereabouts (but not her capture), and Gim learns his mother has resigned as president. All build-up, and some more successful than others. I was surprised Brin had hired a PI. I guess this is his way of showing he still cares, maybe.


If only the PI had hung around a minute longer. We could have had an interesting Brin subplot as he tries to get the Legion to rescue her, but can’t say why he knows something has happened. Or perhaps Brin is the one to replace the character who doesn’t make it out the other side of the story.


Originally Posted by Stile
(Seems like a good place to jump back in.)


And a big welcome back!

The opening scene always struck me as quite grim, with the old setting, the very serious tone, even the use of shading over the others present. I think it works quite well.

The carving does appear old, doesn't it? My first impression on seeing it was some magical ritual from some ancient race that had somehow foretold the Legion's existence.

nod

I was just thinking about such a scene in reply to HWW’s post. We’ve a thread showing the model making hobbies that the LSV have, so I guess ageing the mural isn’t beyond their capabilities. smile

Originally Posted by Stile
Always fun matching the symbols to the legionnaires, and nice touch having the reservists in the middle. Did anyone spot any continuity gaffs with membership?

I always do this, and this reread was no different. smile The Giffen/Levitz push for the logos and icon driven mission monitor boards, not only made it easier for later teams, but made it easier for this reader to get to know the cast.


Originally Posted by Stile
I never knew Ventura's casinos (at least this one) were built over lava pits.


That was a bit of a surprise. Lava pits doesn’t really gel with the idea of a pleasure planet, although getting energy won’t be hard. Next they’ll be building casinos in the desert…ah.. never mind. smile

Originally Posted by Stile
Umm is Nura's power really this reliable in terms of short term prediction? If so then she is only ever beaten when she is not concentrating. I know they used this approach in the Threeboot but I hadn't remembered it being used here.


This is probably it at it’s most effective, but I’m sure it’s been coming for a while. I think Omen/Prophet might have had a hint, and there were a few before then (I’d need to check) that showed that her powers were more than passing out. Which is just as her first appearance had it too, I think.

Originally Posted by Stile
I'm not quite sure what was so wrong with Computo's timing? Asking if everything is ok as they leave perhaps? I never noticed before the little "C2" on the Computo orb. I guess Brainy is following in the Brainiac 1/2/3/4/5 pattern with his creation.


I’m glad you’re reading the Interlac. I’ve been far too lazy on it. If they had kept the Computo numberings, it would only have been a matter of time before each could have been given their own personality tweak.. leading to The Mad Majordomo story. smile

Originally Posted by Stile
This issue demonstrates quite forcefully an important fighting fact - never leap at your opponent, always wait for them to leap. Micro Lad leaps at Vi but she is ready for him and decks him. Radiation Roy leaps at Ayla who is surprised but uses a judo type move with a bit help from her weightloss powers to toss him. Mon-El leaps at Ol-Vir in an aggravated rage and at first has the upper hand but Ol-Vir quickly turns the table on him. In two cases it is the legionnaire who is ready and waiting while in the third Mon-El is letting his emotional frustration and fear of racial backlash overpower his judgement. I am not surprised that Ol-Vir gets the upper hand and Jo shows up as the better combatant.


I have friends who do a verity of combat classes. Have they read Legion #1? They have not, making them unprepared.


Originally Posted by Stile
It seems the Daily Planet is still around (I think we have seen it on the skyline before) and Gim likes to read it. Apparently the Legionnaires are such big news that the Daily Planet Headlines even report that Gim owes Dirk 10 grams(?).

That would really hack off a later Superman editorial office. Gim & Dirk in narcotics scandal? Was Gim really undercover in a recent story to cover up his crimes?!


Originally Posted by Stile
I thought Ayla's part worked well and even though she was defeated showed the strength that will be emphasised in later issues.


Yeah, Ayla can sometimes be seen as a light weight (sorry) on the team. Levitz and Giffen would start to really change this with a lot more to come there. This scene was a good showing, although it was a short fight that she lost.

Originally Posted by Stile
The only irritant to me was the ongoing writer confusion over idenitcal/fraternal twins on Winath. The text blurb emphasises that IDENTICAL twin births are the rule. The Ranzz family are the exception with all the siblings being "singles" genetically. Even Garth and Ayla are only fraternal twins, brother and sister who happened to have the same birthday. I am sure that their being raised together as twins would have provided much of the same sort of acculturation as identical twins born to other families on the same planet, but I wonder if there was always a bit of ongoing stigma attached to the whole family, not just Mekt, which may account for Garth's occasional outbursts. Ayla is, frankly, surprisingly well rounded (that's personality wise, having nothing to do with physical curves so artistically drawn by Giffen).


That’s an interesting look at the Ranzz’s. It does make you wonder what background led to be joyriding out to Korbal. As curvy as Giffen makes Ayla, I keep remembering that she impersonated Garth. But she could have been a late bloomer, I guess.


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Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
Fat Cramer #945708 03/13/18 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth
Micro Lad would have been a villain that I would have read fairly early on, so having him as the first villain provided a link to newer readers. I think the other most recetn option would have been to have The Prophet sign up to the LSV. So a good choice with Micro Lad.


Well, the LSV does get Ol-Vir, so they don't really need Micro Lad as a new addition, except as someone to be Violet's foe. I suppose there is some value in having members who are "opposite numbers" of Legionnaires.

Quote
Were the Daxamites isolationist even back in the Adventure days? The real reason is probably the Superman Office. Can’t be having …um… legions of Daxamites running around with access to Time Bubbles. Probably just as well considering post Crisis and the Superman v4 tantrums. smile


In the preboot, it was never explained why Daxamites (or Braalians or Titanians, for that matter) weren't running around, using and abusing their powers in the galaxy. In one Adventure lettercol, a fan suggested that Legionnaires from different worlds might have different traits--Element Lad's Trommite lungs might make him immune to certain gasses, for example. The editorial response was that Legion writers had enough to contend with in keeping 20+ characters and their powers straight, so no one wanted to develop other such cultural or racial aspects. I'm sure that's why Daxam was overlooked, in addition, probably, to preferences of the Superman office. However, it makes me appreciate the reboot even more, as it gave a plausible reason for Daxamites not being present elsewhere: their xenophobia.

Quote
As curvy as Giffen makes Ayla, I keep remembering that she impersonated Garth. But she could have been a late bloomer, I guess.


Well, there was also Profem and whatever its masculine version might have been. smile


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Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
He Who Wanders #945710 03/13/18 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth
Were the Daxamites isolationist even back in the Adventure days? The real reason is probably the Superman Office. Can’t be having …um… legions of Daxamites running around with access to Time Bubbles. Probably just as well considering post Crisis and the Superman v4 tantrums. smile


Originally Posted by HWW
In the preboot, it was never explained why Daxamites (or Braalians or Titanians, for that matter) weren't running around, using and abusing their powers in the galaxy. In one Adventure lettercol, a fan suggested that Legionnaires from different worlds might have different traits--Element Lad's Trommite lungs might make him immune to certain gasses, for example. The editorial response was that Legion writers had enough to contend with in keeping 20+ characters and their powers straight, so no one wanted to develop other such cultural or racial aspects. I'm sure that's why Daxam was overlooked, in addition, probably, to preferences of the Superman office. However, it makes me appreciate the reboot even more, as it gave a plausible reason for Daxamites not being present elsewhere: their xenophobia.


Interesting to hear about the lettercol. Thanks.

My memory says the first time it was touched on was during the Valor series. He went home for a visit to find lots of his fellow Daxamites dead or dying, blaming it on a plague from a visiting alien. Valor realised it was lead in his crashed spaceship but wasn't believed so dealt with it himself. Meanwhile Daxam turned somewhat isolationist as a result.

Frankly lead being such a common substance any Daxamite leaving the planet takes their life into their hands. It's hard to imagine not encountering lead, especially on any developed world. They would pretty much need to wear transsuits or the equivalent continually which would likely not stand up to much super derring do. One has to wonder how many of the Daxamites Darkseid sent on a rampage had ongoing health problems after their return, especially considering Element Lad's atmospheric trap for them. Ol-Vir has just been lucky so far - or perhaps mild lead poisoning has contributed to his mental derangement?

Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
Fat Cramer #945760 03/14/18 08:52 PM
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Good points, stile86. Thanks for sharing the Valor information.

I'd forgotten about the weakness to lead. I wonder if Levitz did, too, as it wasn't addressed in the Great Darkness Saga. Certainly somebody must have figured out that lead weapons might take out a whole army of Daxamites! Perhaps Darkseid in his omnipotence made them immune to lead, though I don't think that was stated.

The idea of lingering health problems for Daxamites would parallel the health issues faced by many Japanese after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's also an interesting notion that lead poisoning might have contributed to Ol-Vir's madness, although I prefer him to be "merely" a radicalized young man who found a purpose in serving his dark god. There are, unfortunately, a lot of parallels with that concept in the real world, as well. frown


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Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
Fat Cramer #945821 03/16/18 10:53 AM
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What replaces lead in the Daxamite periodic table? I'm curious to see if there will be any further references to the Daxamites' Darkseid-fueled departure from their planet. Is the anti-lead serum available to all of them? What do diplomats do? THe transsuit option makes sense. Their customs & immigration must have to screen for anything with lead in it, although presumably they can withstand exposure to a small quantity. The comparison to Japanese survivors of the nuclear blasts is a good one; perhaps that's why Daxam becomes a center of medical research that we'll see later in the series.

Also very interesting comment on the Ranzz twins not being identical. It never crossed my mind before. Most images we see of Winathians do show identical twins. I figure it's just a shortcut for the artist to draw two identical people, but now there's a whole (potential) story behind it.

Lots of good material (as usual!) in the comments above, but I just got power back after three days and am playing catch-up.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
He Who Wanders #945856 03/16/18 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
I'd forgotten about the weakness to lead. I wonder if Levitz did, too, as it wasn't addressed in the Great Darkness Saga. Certainly somebody must have figured out that lead weapons might take out a whole army of Daxamites! Perhaps Darkseid in his omnipotence made them immune to lead, though I don't think that was stated.


There was a scene in #294, where Jan steps from the shadows to change the atmosphere on Daxam to contain more lead. "One part lead per thousand will activate their intense vulnerability," said Querl. Perhaps one of the reasons the Legion stayed around on Daxam as a subplot was to remove all the lead that Jan had put into the atmosphere.



"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-reading the Legion: Archives Volume 19
Fat Cramer #945874 03/17/18 03:58 PM
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Thanks for the correction, thoth.


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