Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Your opinions on Legion romances

What are your thoughts on the various Legion romantic relationships?
Just what has been shown on panel, please, even if it was one-sided. No headcanons.

The only one that every continuity simply can't miss is of course Saturn Girl / Lightning Lad... that's like doing Fantastic Four without Reed/Susan, it just doesn't work.
I've liked their ups and downs in every incarnation, though the Threeboot didn't have the time to do anything interesting.

My favorite relationships are Mon-El/Shadow Lass and Cosmic Boy/Night Girl. They felt the most real... a lot less soap opera stuff than the other couples, which was really refreshing! I'm glad that most other relationships weren't like that (it would be pretty boring if every character had a normal and healthy relationship), but things were refreshingly simple.
Closely followed by Bouncing Boy/Duo Damsel, which we didn't see as much but they always seemed like a great couple.

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, things could be TOO rocky between Light Lass and Timber Wolf, but it could get very entertaining. Violet was arguably a better match for Light Lass, we didn't see nearly enough of them.

I found Ultra Boy/Phantom Girl very boring pre-Crisis, but the reboot version is my favorite for that era since Mon-El/Shadow Lass and Cosmic Boy/Night Girl were not a thing.

Brainiac 5 is my favorite Legionnaire but I never really cared that much for his mostly one sided relationship with Supergirl/Andromeda... I just didn't find their interactions that interesting. Oddly enough I think the best one could've been with Dream Girl in the threeboot if only there was more time to develop them, their verbal sparring was immensely entertaining.

Wildfire is my second favorite; this might be a controversial opinion but I never cared for his relationship with Dawnstare. Mostly because I didn't like how she treated him most of the time, it could get pretty ridiculous sometimes.

In terms of crushes, Duo Damsel/Superboy was probably the one treated the most realistically... she wasn't madly in love, she just got over it, and I don't think he ever even noticed. And Blok/White Witch was just adorable.

Element Lad/Shvaughn was very good, especially in the Baxter era. It's not one of the best superhero/civilians only because he's in a team with so many members that we don't spend a lot of time with them.


I think we can all agree Violet/Duplicate Boy was the worst one and that nobody has ever been more boring on this topic than Superboy. Did he ever show interest in ANYONE, even for just a panel? And no Insect Queen doesn't count :-)


I don't have much to say about Star Boy/Dream Girl, Colossal Boy/Violet and way too many others (I'm sure I'm forgetting at least one of the important ones), but I'm curious to know which ones are your favorites and which ones you never cared for.

I would like to see Shrinking Violet get back together with Duplicate Boy. I rather liked that not all Legion relationships involved the core group.

One of my favourite will always be Karate Kid and Princess Projectra. That was the one that felt "real" to me anyway. And I agree with you about Cosmic Boy and Night Girl.

Apparition and Ultra Boy in the Reboot, for sure. Also loved how Jo, despite being able to get anyone he wanted (i mean, come oooon, look at him) was so in love with Tinya he didn't even try while she was intangible. Wasn't too happy with the wrenches DnA threw in, not having them talk things out and all.

Garth and Imra... felt real. In the Reboot I mean. Garth being inept, Imra trying TOO hard to separate romance from work... Garth's impromptu proposal just before Legion of the Damned, is still one of my fave scenes ever.

I knew that I was forgetting to include a relationship that I really should've mentioned. Yes, that was one of the best ones, the only hiccup being the reason for Karate Kid needing to go back to the past in order to prove himself... that was kind of random.

Another vote for Postboot Apparition & Ultra Boy, though I concur with Ibby that DnA did them no favors (and I'm actually a fan of a lot of other DnA stuff, especially their early storylines.)

Tinya/ Jo: They are inseparable since Tinya stood by him when he was declared an outlaw and expelled. They've always seemed really into each other, and a self contained unit that would survive anything in the legion and beyond its end.

Imra/ Garth: A lot was made of them being willing to sacrifice their lives for each other. Imra supported Garth when he went through issues as leader. The couple everyone thought would get together, as long as one of them wasn't dead. There can be a little bit of distortion as people remember the best of lost, loved ones. With the Proty subplot, the Garth that returned from the dead, was everything the others considered heroic.

Ayla/ Brin: Like Tinya/Jo, Ayla stood by Brin. Unlike Jo, Brin is an emotionally stunted who annoys everyone about being alone, in every team situation going. Fortunately, Ayla dumped him after the GDS, and moved onto better things.

Vi/Ord: A long distance relationship that Vi could claim to have, without any sort of real emotional commitment. Ord looked far more likely to be playing the field away from his partner, but the circumstance may have suited him for exactly the same reasons.

Ayla/Vi: Vi's approach to her life, following her time in the sens tank, resulted in Ayla exploring new avenues in hers, emerging as a mission leader, her flirtation with Pol Krinn etc. T&M Bierbaum's dialogue in v4 made this one of my favourites as their level of commitment to each other came through.

Chuck/ Lu: One of the more mature romances as Lu gives up her love for the unattainable Kal. Chuck's has any number of qualities that come through in the Adventure era. While the story suggests that he gets the girl of his dreams, Lu has done incredibly well out of the match.

Nura/ Thom: Their sex life is great, but other than that, Thom is a bit dull for her and her lifestyle. How many times do you hear complaints that someone's partner isn't what they expected them to be. Thom's long since lost his original powers. He forgives her most things, but the make ups end when he feels compelled to leave the team.

Rokk/ Lydda: She's a hero groupie, but ends up doing most of the heavy lifting for the relationship. In part it's due to Rokk's war experience but mainly because there's actually not much depth beneath his still waters run deep personality that others think they see.

Tasmia/ Lar: Another example where one partner does some heavy lifting where required, in this case getting Lar through the trauma of the failing lead serum, and (as per 5YG) personality problems. Their love for each other is deep. While not spoken of, at its beginning, Tasmia chose to go after Lar after not getting far with Brainy. She proactively looked for her partner on the team.

Drake/ Dawnstar: Drake pretty much stalked Dawny at the Academy and is over protective towards her, eve butting in on her spiritual quest. But, as the Legion's first response team, they spend a lot of time in each other's company. They get on well together, while either of them can run their colleagues up the wrong way. There's also a subplot of one of them running hot while the other is cold through life quests and possession of humanoid forms.

Kara/Querl: This one looked be developing nicely in the Levitz era, before Kara had to leave. With Laurel/ Querl, TMK showed us what a relationship between the two over a longer period would have been like. Two personalities that are both very smart, but not alike, allowing for deeper connections to be made.

Garth & Imra had the most developed and mature relationship, in all the versions. It did feel real, with its ups and downs, but them always sticking together. I didn't like the Imra and Rokk as a couple, mainly because I was so used to Imra-Garth - and I really didn't like the triangle of the reboot. (Imra-Rokk in Superboy's Legion was okay, but had more of a summer romance feeling to it.) Jo and Tinya didn't have enough conflict in the original version and too much in the post-boot/DnA stories.

Chuck and Lu were so girl/boy next door, it was sweet even if it was kinda boring.

Brainy and Dream Girl was charming and funny and tragic until Jim Shooter made it supernaturally weird. Brainy and Supergirl wasn't that much of a relationship because of the time difference, but it had so much potential because of that. Brainy/Andromeda in the Legionnaires series didn't have the same feel as the other, with Supergirl always returning to the 20th century and Brainy knowing she would die.

One that never became a relationship was Tenzil and Violet - that one classic era story where he took her out dancing and the theme picked up in the Legionnaires series with him secretly in love with her - they might have made a good couple, like she was the only one he could be serious with.

Some of the others were interesting for their quirks - Shady's all-too-often clinginess with Mon-el, the Shvaughn/Sean/Jan mess, Gim & Yera and the deception. Wildfire and Dawnstar just got to be tiresome; I liked her doomed fling with Jhodan, though.

For the most part, I like all the canon couples on the original Legion.

Kara and Querl are probably always going to be my favorite Legion couple. I'm a sucker for tragic romance, so the time travel aspect, Querl being unable to interfere with her death, and Kara's commitmentphobia all combined to make something that really held my interest. And the fact that he's the only one of her love interests to continually stick around after 60 years says something. While I liked the SW6 version of Laurel with Querl, I want his 5YL version to stay 500 feet away from her. She was better off with Rond.

Ayla and Vi are also extremely important to me, as they were one of the first wlw couples I saw in media. Their development from friends to partners was extremely well done and felt really natural to me.

I strongly dislike Duplicate Boy and I even more strongly dislike his relationship with Violet. He has the personality of a soggy napkin and Salu is better off without him. I like Gim and Yera for what they became, but I was and continue to be uncomfortable with how their relationship started.

Drake & Dawny exhaust me with the constant back and forth. I think I just get tired of Drake yelling after her while she seems like she could care less.

PZH-wise, XS and Magno were pretty cute, and I wish they had gotten more development. I'll also join the crowd in echoing that Jo and Tinya in this era were very good, aside from the random marriage problems towards the end.

In Threeboot, I was intrigued by Nura and Querl, until Shooter came along and just... Ruined it. Everything interesting about Nura was stripped away when he took over and I don't even want to touch that terrible issue where she was attacked.

And despite their hurdles in that continuity, Garth and Imra are the one classic couple that not even Threeboot could separate. They really are the Legion couple.

The absolute worst ever was Shady/Earth Man. What the heck was Levitz thinking with that? At least the hints were that things were being righted at the very end of v7.

The Wildfire/Dawnstar one bugged me. He started out hitting on her when she was in the academy and he was a teacher. He was a hot head and she just seemed aloof for the most part. There was a scene later on when he didn?t need a suit but his touch left burn marks on her. Yuck

I like Wildfire and Dawny, but yeah when he was giving her radiation burns and she was all NO THIS IS VERY OKAY ACTUALLY that was quite skeevy....it's also weird that Dawny is vulnerable to radiation burns to begin with considering she flies around in space constantly with no problems. If she actually was written with the powers she must have to compliment her speed and her ability to survive in a vacuum she'd be so much more effective but that's a rant for another time lol

I think my fave Legion couples are:
Brainy & Kara (also I don't actually like Brainy & Laurel Gand together, but I did like them as exes in the 5YL Legion)
Cos & Lydda
Ayla & Vi
old school Jan & Shvaughn
Chuck & Lu (and I agree with thoth that Lu actually did way better out of that match than writers generally acknowledge)
Shady & Mon-El

I kind of expect Garth & Imra as well as Tinya & Jo to be together forever, but I think that's just because of how I see them rather than me having any particular investment in their relationships....it weirded me out every time they played up Imra & Cos because it's just so strange to consider Imra and Garth NOT being with each other.

Shady and Earth-Man I had bleached from my brain.....I don't know wtf Levitz was thinking putting an unrepentant nazi on the team or thinking it was at all believable that any of the old-school Legionnaires would even have a one-night stand with him let alone a relationship, gross!

And I too think Vi and Tenzil would have been a good match up, and it probably would have kept him on the active roster longer as well. I know Comics Archeology said no headcanons but I do headcanon that Vi and Ayla both have an especially good and mostly platonic relationship with Tenzil because he was nice to Vi when she was young and needed someone who actually encouraged her self-worth. I could imagine them being flirty drunks with one another occasionally but I think they'd just all genuinely be really close friends.

I really thought they were a cute couple! and both so good-natured too!




ugh agree, I had to convince myself Shady was being mentally manipulated... all the Tasmias I have ever known had strong principles, so for Shady to do that...

One thing I liked was how utterly different many of the relationships were. It was much like getting together with a dozen old friends and their spouses / partners, and thinking that some of them complement each other really well, and some of them just make no sense, but work anyway, and some are just messy drama you can't look away from.

There was something for everyone, and even if there were relationships that I felt were squiffy or questionable or 'boring,' it was no different than the real world, with all sorts of reasons two people might end up together.

The Legion couplings I care the most about are:

Pre-Crisis/Retroboot Garth and Imra
Pre-Crisis/Retroboot Ayla and Vi

Garth and Imra due to their devotion for one another to almost comical levels. These two absolutely will not allow each other to die, especially if one's trying to sacrifice themself for the other. Even before they actually became a couple, I loved Imra's willingness to sacrifice herself for the Legion even at the cost of everyone thinking she was a power-hungry bitch and yet Garth still threw himself forward and died in her place knowing what she really planned. Beyond that it was the sense of respect that grew between them and the idea of Imra being the more masculine figure while Garth is the more feminine one. In the sense Imra resumed active duty as a Legionnaire while Garth chose to support her from home by looking after their children.

I genuinely grew to hate what Geoff Johns tried to do to these two, by saying Garth was always a brash hothead and Imra "saw the best in everyone" as a way to justify Garth turning abusive while Imra just took his behavior. Even if it could be justified as them both being traumatized from being on the run and getting separated from their kids, I was glad Levitz used the shock of Titan's destruction to snap them back to their actual selves.

I know I frequently joke about Ayla and Vi as being "the original space lesbians," and I apologize for the bi erasure that comes from those jokes. I do think the two have a strong vibe akin to Sailors Uranus and Neptune from Sailor Moon, even if they've shown attraction to men. What draws me to them is the sense of awakening that developed around Ayla and Vi as their dissatisfaction with their male relationships grew alongside the development of their strength. Both women had gone through horrible ordeals and both had been failed by the men in their lives. To me, it didn't feel as lazy as "Oh, the only two queer ladies in the Legion hook up." It felt like they were drawn to one another because they were going through similar ordeals and helped each other figure out hidden details about themselves.

It's losing these relationships as two of the main reasons why I genuinely hate the current Legion so much. I wanted more of those two pairings from these specific versions of the characters. It wasn't fair that after all this time, Ayla and Vi were brought back and could finally have their romantic feelings openly acknowledged by the narrative only for them to be wiped away and replaced with... whatever the Hell is going in Bendis's Legion. I wanted to see their love continue to grow as they did in a world where it didn't have to hide behind subtext.

Well said, Sarcasm Kid!

I keep forgetting Garth and Imra are pretty unique in that sense (in comics), with Garth being the supportive spouse and Imra as the one who is naturally a core part of the team.

...and I 100% agree about Ayla and Vi as well - it just seems a really natural transition in retrospect, and their 5YL relationship was probably the strongest one of the series without seeming at all gimmicky.

Sarky touches on it specifically with Garth and Imra, but I've always been pleased and bemused sometimes by how together the Legion ladies are, and how much the writing has kind of thrown a monkey-wrench at gender and relationship tropes. Ironbutt Imra is the one who can't stay retired and keeps diving back into action. Garth has a breakdown and seems to be 'the emotional one.' Drake is 'the clingy one' and Dawny sometimes comes across as emotionally unavailable. Shady is the brash confident one, Mon is the PTSD abuse-survivor who stays one step behind and let's their spouse stand in front and serve as their emotional shield at times. Jo is a bit of a mess, and Tinya's the one who has it together. Luornu has got the tragic backstory (with the loss of her selves), and she's the grizzled veteran, while Chuck sometimes comes off as unsure of himself and in a more cliche-d relationship, she'd be the action hero with the dark past and he'd be the uncertain waif that got rescued and discovers their confidence in the second act. And Brin and Ayla, obviously, practically a hurt/comfort fic gone to a much healthier conclusion as the caregiver says, '**** it' and dumps his needy ass.

And there's more stereotypical relationships, as well. It's not all rowing against the current. It's just some fun subversion of outmoded types and (sexist) tropes.

About the only time it irks is when a story beat gets retread. In later years, Rokk seemed to be turning into Garth, the one who breaks down and can't handle the stress, while Lydda remained the cool-as-cucumbers anchor, taking on the Imra role, and I felt like I had already read this exact beat...

Another thing I couldn't stand was when Johns turned Rokk into the suffering "I have to give up love" type of character while Lydda was delegated to the thing he "could not" have. I'm always gonna remember that one panel in L3W where Rokk's talking about all he had to sacrifice to become Legion leader again, and Lydda's standing in the background looking like someone ripped out her heart. God I hate that.

...

And later, Garth & Imra tried to get them back together at a disco - ugh - but I never liked Rokk much. That scene just confirmed my bad opinion of him. The best part of that relationship was her moving on and working as an Academy instructor. At the very end of the series, Rokk's with Garth and Imra, no Lydda in sight. I hope she told him, fun dancing with you, don't call me, good night.

We all know, deep down, there are only two people who can handle Rokk Krinn in a relationship

Projectra and Karate Kid, always was my favorite Legion couple.... The princess and the warrior.
Saturn Girl and Lightining Lad , is in second place... The heart of the Legion.
Phantom Girl and Ultra Boy.... but I'm the only one who loved Spider Girl and Ultra Boy couple, too... Very intense with the sacrifice of Sussa.
Shadow Lass and Mon-El. A classic.
Supergirl and Brainiac 5. The impossible love.
Cosmic Boy and Night Girl. A very real love.
White Witch and Timber Wolf, in the final run of the original series...
Special mention to Duo Damsel and Superboy crush...and the not confirmed romance Invisible Kid & Chemical King.


In the reboot : Cosmic Boy and Kid Quantum, nice twist.

In the 3boot : Projectra and Timber Wolf, a great beautiful couple.

I liked the idea of Jo and Sussa - I don't know if I'm misremembering but I seem to recall she ended up being a bit too 'emotional girlfriend' which is ehhh....before the stupid new superhero codenames at the end of the series though, when she kept him on his toes and gave him something to do other than sit around moping about Tinya was fun.

In relationship terms it was kind of the next logical step from the role Kono filled, but they very wisely avoided a creepy vibe by letting a character other than very young Kono fill that position.

And it kind of gave her a low key redemption without any of that "the love of a man made her right" business, like you got the impression that she wasn't changing to snag Jo but more that being around good people just encouraged her to follow her better impulses. Which does kinda make you wonder what might have happened if the Legion weren't so much of the time utter assholes to rejects at the try-outs, but that's another topic altogether I guess

I fondly remember the scene where Sussa encourages Jo to go find time-lost Tinya. And someone (Ayla I think, or Vi) told her: I used to think you were selfish, but you're not.

Really upped Sussa in my eyes, and made her a niche fave.

Speaking of characters who were unfortunately paired with Earth-Man in the retroboot...

Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh

I know! She would have to have a certain degree of invulnerability but for some reason she could fly around suns and through spaceships yet still get wounded by an arrow shot from a bow. While I didn?t care for them as a couple I will say they weren?t bad together in Legion Lost if I remember.

I liked Jo and Sussa too. She flirted and had a crush on him but where they ever really a couple beyond that? It was nice seeing Spider Girl reform and become a hero. Was a little sad seeing that wiped away with the reboots.

I fanwank that whatever force helps propel her in flight, particularly in space (it sure as hell isn't wing-flapping that moves her near lightspeed in vacuum!) also reinforces her body against acceleration forces/etc. so that, contrary to expectations, she gets more and more 'invulnerable' the faster she flies, as whatever force she's using for propulsion is also protecting her from the effects of that acceleration.

But yeah, she's never really made a ton of sense, powers wise, nor been portrayed particularly consistently (since I don't think the writers had any sort of specific rationale for how her powers worked, and sort of made it up as they went along).

Really enjoyed :

Mon-EL / Shadow Lass - Original/5YL
Ultra Boy/Tinya 5YL - Reboot
Element lad and Shvaughn - Original
Karate Kid and Projectra - original
Brainiac 5 and Dream Girl - Threeboot

Like:

Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad - pretty much all versions
White Witch and Blok - original
Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy
Ayla and Vi - original and retroboot
B5 and Laurel Gand
Cosmic Boy and Night Girl
Dream Girl and Star Boy
Colossal Boy and Gigi Cusimano

Neutral:

Dawnstar and Wildfire
Colossal Boy and Chameleon Girl
Invisible Kid and Gazelle
Shady and Earth Man
Lightning Lass and Timberwolf
Timberwolf and Projectra

What I thought were Interesting potentials:

Reboot -

Saturn Girl and Ultra Boy
Chameleon Boy and Lightning Lass
Chameleon Boy and Sensor
Ferro and Inferno
Ferro and Shrinking Violet

Threeboot -

Atom Girl and Timberwolf
Atom Girl and Wildfire

When I grew up in the '70s, it was just a given that some Legionnaires were couples and not much was made of it. It wasn't until the Levtiz era in the '80s that things got interesting with Ayla breaking up with Brin and Nura taking Thom for granted. The relationships had been very static to that point.

Favorites? Garth and Imra were a given. As a Mon-El fan, I liked his relationship with Shady, though, again, things didn't really become interesting until she emerged as a stronger character in the '80s. Her marriage to him while he was dying speaks a lot about her culture, her strength, and her devotion to him.

The Jo and Tinya relationship was comfortable and safe, and I appreciated the fact that they were part of a clique with Mon and Shady. Still, I went through the five stages of grief for Jo when she was killed off before 5YL. It was like having the rug of stability ripped out from under me.

Val and Jeckie were, as Emerald Empress noted above, a wonderful warrior and princess archetype. I didn't care for either character separately, but together they conveyed a sense that each contributed something meaningful to the relationship.

Much effort was spent to develop Drake and Dawny as a couple who could never be, and while both were difficult personalities, I got the feeling they could have brought the best out of each other. Unfortunately, the pathos went on too long and brought out the worst of them--Drake's clinginess and Dawny's indifference.

I don't have much to say about the rest. Chuck and Lu got married and lived happily ever after, as all good people did in those days (at least Hollywood said so). I never quite understood what Nura saw in Thom, and, by the Levitz era, neither did she. We didn't see enough of Ord for me to get a sense of his relationship with Vi (though their eventual breakup was classic). Lydda, too, was off center stage and only there when Rokk needed a date. Brin and Ayla were just sort of there. Brainy and Kara were over by the time I started reading the Legion. (However, the story of him building a Supergirl robot in his sleep is both sweet and creepy. Creepy romances run throughout the Legion's history.)

There hasn t been much development of romances in the Bendisboot. Mon breaking up with Phantom Girl, Shady and Rokk sort of a couple. The blossoming Imra-Jon romance was better than I would have expected. It's hard to imagine Imra with anyone but Garth after all these years, but this felt authentic in a sweet, teenage crush kind of way. (Assuming we neglect Imra's mind manipulation tendencies.)

Get ready for a list:
Mon-EL x Shadow Lass in the original time line.
Ultra Boy and Tinya in both the original and reboot, I feel if the reboot had more time they would have tried to fix there relationship.
Element lad x Shvaughn Erin in the original, they were my absolute favourite couple in the 80's Legion.
Karate Kid and Projectra - original
Brainiac 5 and Kara in literally every timeline except reboot and threeboot, considering I grew up with Legion as bedtime stories I am almost positive these two were my first ever ship, and I still love them so much.
Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy were also adorable
Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad's love story was just amazing in both the original and reboot to me, I love them.
I was constantly rooting for Cosmic Boy and Night Girl to get together, and when they finally did I found it so satisfying.
Ayla and Vi in the original may have been subtle, but they were great.
Dream Girl and Star Boy in both the original and reboot were also great.
Colossal Boy and Gigi Cusimano was cute and at the time I thought they would be more of a thing but I must admit I was much more satisfied by Gigi and Sun Boy, and Colossal Boy and Yera.
Dawnstar and Wildfire were ok, but only later on because Wildfire was way more of a jerk in the beginning.
Lightning Lass and Timberwolf were great in the 70's and early 80's but when it ended I think that was a good conclusion because I think both character really grew after they separated.
Chameleon Boy and Princess Elwinda was brief, but one of my absolute favorite Legion relationships of all time and it ended so sadly.
Chameleon and Spark in the reboot.
Cosmic Boy and Kid Quantum in the reboot was great
And finally Lyle and Brainy in the reboot, it might have only been a brief kiss but I love them so so much.

Edit: I also hated all Earth Man relationships, it made me want to puke.

Here's my opinion on Dawny/Wildfire

Wildfire's whole thing is he doesn't really care about his lack of a physical body, and if a physical relationship was really important than both of them would make an effort to use equipment like a strap-on to satisfy Dawny's needs. Orgasm occurs in the mind and I refuse to believe by the 31st Century they don't have options.

No Wildfire's whole thing is he's afraid if he enters into an actual, committed relationship without all the "WE CAN NEVER TOUCH" crap than Dawny's gonna realize she really is too good for him and dump him once and for all. But the constant angst and tragedy of it all keeps them both in a cycle of break-up and reunion so even if Dawny DOES leave she comes back.

That is a good interpretation! I know the real world reason Drake has never done anything permanent about his situation is status quo, but looking at it in universe....I think there is something really wrong with him beneath the surface. I mean his origin story involves the miracle machine, dude didn't immediately think to use it to give himself a human body?

I think my list is very much defined by the relationships as depicted by Levitz

Imra/Garth - I even remembered them from when I randomly picked up a Legion comic as a young child in the 70s
Lar/Shady
Ayla/Vi
Thom/Nura
Tinya/Jo
Dawnstar/Wildfire

The only one that is off the Levitz reservation is Rokk/Jazmin, which is the only real relationship that made any positive kind of impact on me from the DnA era, after they messed with everything else, but I need to reread that stretch to see if my memory is correct on that.

I will say that I wasn't really a fan of the Tinya/Jo romance during the Peyer/McCraw run, but it grew on me by the time the timeline ended.
Disappointed that no one other than Levitz did anything with Ayla/Vi.

I don't remember the miracle machine being involved in his origin, just an accident with anti-matter, a containment suit from a professor, and a hell of a lot of luck.

I'm pretty sure he has in mind the story where he joins the team as Wildfire rather than the actual origin. He uses the Miracle Machine in that issue to defeat the Molecule Master.

I don't see Wildfire's concerns over not having a physical body as primarily being a matter of whether he can bring Dawny to orgasm. There's a lot more to physical intimacy than simply getting the other person off. Holding a glove is a lot different than holding the other person's hand, and lying with your arms around a containment suit is just not the same as putting your head on the chest of a loved one and hearing their heartbeat. It's as much about having no lips with which to kiss her as anything else.

Sorry, I should have been more clear...but yeah, that is the story I was thinking about. I always kind of think of that as his more fleshed out origin story because it's more the start of Wildfire as the Legionnaire we know.

I agree about the intimacy thing too. I mean even taking actual physical contact out of it altogether he doesn't have a face anymore so he can't communicate visually outside of body language, he can't ever taste food or smell anything again - the limitations of comics mean we don't know how his voice sounds but I can't imagine he's capable of the kind of subtle variations of tone and stuff like that he would have been capable of in a human body (my headcanon is that's why he's alway so in your face about everything, because unless he's being over the top when he expresses himself it's probably difficult for people to gauge whether he's being sarcastic, angry, hurt, etc).

I kinda wish they'd actually touched on this stuff in the comics instead of having his regrets revolve around "not being man enough" for Dawnstar all the time because it'd make him a lot more sympathetic. The only story I can think of where you really got a sense of how much he's lost was that dream dimension thing with Jacques where he didn't want to leave the fantasy that made him feel human again.

^^Good points.

Ah I get what you mean about the miracle machine and you are right. he could theoretically have given himself a new body by using it.

You make some excellent points about what life must be like for him having no face, no physical contact with anything or anyone except through the layers of the suit. That would drive anyone to extremes and I guess it is to Drake's credit that he is as in control of himself as he is.

The whole storyline feels like we sort of got the dumbed down version. They have telepathic earplugs, for one, and I am *sure* they have more sophisticated means in which the two could get together in some virtual / telepathic 'space' for some sexy adult time if that was truly important to either of them.

And yet, Drake has no glands, no hormones, no body chemistry.

He shouldn't have any real sexual desire of his own so much as a frustrated longing to be able to provide that for Dawny and feeling that it's unfair that *she* is denied that, by choosing to be with him (which would make him and his manpain 100% more sympathetic to me, if that were presented that way in the comics, instead of that lame scene where he falls into an alternate dimension where he can form a body and immediately surrounds himself with a literal harem of hotties and tells Invisible Jacques he's staying here and never going back!).

The writing has come off at times as *Drake* is needy (and horny), and it seems not just like a disservice to Drake, but a little bit unrealistic (and even sexist, to, as always, make the man the one who has sexual needs and the woman just some aloof object of his affection who doesn't seem to have any needs or desires or sexual agency of her own). It's like, hey, let's write a couple, and only *one* of them gets to have thought bubbles. Guess which one we consider a person, and which one is a plot object?

That's a really good point, Set. I had never thought of Drake having no hormones, etc., and, therefore, he should have no sexual desire.

We take a lot for granted in comics. Just what does it mean to be "human"? To be "male"? I think Drake tapped into a lot of frustrated teen angst--wanting to be with someone but, for various reasons (culture, age, etc.), not being able to. He was a lot like the Thing in this regard--monstrous in form but still having a man's feelings.

Viewed in this context, the harem scene makes a lot of sense to me. It was Drake being human and male and realizing how much he needed to be both.

A similar case could be made for Rogue in the X-Men. She wants to love, but she can't touch someone without draining their energy.

There is evidence of people having phantom pains and other sensations after having lost a limb. I imagine that the writers must have had this in mind for Wildfire.

Yeah, I don't think we ever got a full exploration of just how weird his disembodiment must be. It's mentioned that he no longer eats. presumably he doesn't need to sleep... and yet he still has memories of what it's like to have a body.

I think in an earlier discussion, I mentioned a wish for Drake to meet other beings who weren't bound by physical bodies as we are. Perhaps as his memories of human experiences faded, he'd be less angsty and learn to approach existence as they did.

I guess you could argue (and I think someone did) that being surrounded by "normal" beings would make forgetting impossible for him, though. Even if he no longer had the same feelings towards Dawnstar. Which would mean at some point he might feel compelled to leave the team (and her) for his own personal growth and sanity.

Celeste McCauley was actually in a similar situation by the end of 5YL, having been converted to GL energy. I always thought it would've been interesting to see more of them together.

I hadn't thought of the parallel with Celeste. Good point. But then we never did get the chance to really dive in to her characterisation after her transformation.

While the gland issue makes some sense, societal and cultural upbringings also make a difference in what is considered attractive. As a heterosexual male I know that what arouses me is not what would have been considered sexy in some past western cultures like the 18th century or the 15th century. To take just one example much depiction of women in the past showed the ideal to be "well-padded" by our standards. When food and healthy nourishment are scarcer the idea of a well fed woman is sexier than a thin one, which contrast significantly with our current abundant society. There are also some differences in male depiction though less obvious. The ideal of a fit, well-muscled, physically healthy man which is rarer in our consumptive society is different than a time when most men worked long hours physically and the learned "noble" idea was seen as more aspiring. (If I am coming across as sexist or homophobic, I apologise. Not my intention.)

My point is that even without the hormones Drake would have been culturally used to what he considered attractive in his mind, as well as having a number of years with the hormones to reinforce that. I suspect that the portrayal of him still being attracted to Dawnstar is normal and sensible. (Not quite the words I wanted but you get the idea.)

I only know Celeste through her Heroes History page and the tiny handful of 5YL issues that I own. But she seems cool. Certainly I found her more interesting than I found any other GL.