That's at least what Rich Johnston seems to suggest in the latest LITG column, when he speaks of the bristol comic convention.

"Jim Shooter's non-attendance was due to being dropped off "Legion" by DC."

has anyone heard something about this?

Link to reference.

I hope not!

Gotta say, i hope he isn't gone. This isn't the legion i wanted to read about, but if its all i am gonna get, its a damn site better than what came before.

Be nice if we got some Villians in the book, though.

This is what I was afraid of. With all the Final Crisis stuff you don't get JIM SHOOTER to write a swan song for a low selling series.

No you COMMIT to JIM SHOOTER and treat him like a god. I love Geoff John's Action Legion as much as the next guy but if they knew they were going to scratch the current Legion...they shouldn't have offered to Jim. They should've offered the Action Legion to him once Final Crisis was done.

I would be totally disappointed if Shooter is out

I'm hoping this is a bad rumor, but have a sinking feeling that it isn't. Whatever happened to class?

let's ask Manapul!
Fraaaaaaaaaanciiiiiis??!!!
is this true?

editorial must have finally decided that Johns' direction/Legion was the way to go, and Shooter, understandably so, was pissed and bailed. didn't DC always say that this WaK legion was the legion for this Earth? they decided to listen to the sales and the blogs and go for Johns' take. why should Shooter stay with a sinking ship that Waid comandeered into the iceberg?

Whichever way, it sucks. We come full circle in 50 years, back to being a supporting act in Action. I really hope DC lives up to its promise of letting Shooter do at least a year before giving the series the ax. But if the LitG rumor is true, it sounds like that may not be the case.

I call it karma for all the bad things Shooter has done.

Karma ain't all it's cracked up to be. Shooter is no saint, for sure. I've reached a point in my life where I've made enough mistakes that I hope those to who I've been unkind will let it pass, and try to do the same for others. Shooter participating in the Legion's 50th anniversary year has nothing to do with old Marvel politics, and everything to do with honoring the innocent exuberance of a 13 year old boy who got his dream job, and contributed many classic elements to this thing we know as the Legion. Come on, Stealth, he did create that badass villian for the ages, Emerald Empress, who you have a bit of fondness for. Can you give him just a little bit of love?

I really hope that this isn't true, but, given the luck the Legion franchise has, it probably is...

Shooter has single-handedly saved the threeboot Legion and made them feel like Legionnaires again, and whoever came up with the Action Legion has failed to do so, IMO, devolving into schmaltzy nostalgia and feel-good buzz-words and catch-phrases rather than presenting actual characters.

I could give a rat's butt about what Shooter has done in the past. He's doing good work *here.*

If Shooter goes and that Action version of a 20 year dead Legion is superimposed I'm going to quit the book - the Powers That Be have no interest in what I imagine the majority of readers want (quality workmanship, new ideas, the unexpected) just in pleasing the loud minority that are never happy with anything but their own 'golden age'. Blecch, stagnation within a creative medium should be hangable offence IMO!

04/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #28 — 31,525
04/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #29 — 30,906
05/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #30 — 30,767
06/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #31 — 30,385
07/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #32 — 29,826
08/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #33 — 29,315
09/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #34 — 28,294
10/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #35 — 27,370
11/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #36 — 26,814
12/2007: Legion of SH #37 — 45,803
01/2008: Legion of SH #38 — 33,045
02/2008: Legion of SH #39 — 31,123
03/2008: Legion of SH #40 — 30,377

Well, there wouldn't be many living writers at DC were that true...

Well, what a crap way to start off Tuesday.

But I have no doubts that it is true.

One would hope that DC at least informed Shooter his run (and in fact the 3boot itself) was just until LSH of 3 Worlds ended, but that may have not been so.

That the ACTION arc (which I *loved*, make no mistake) co-incided with Shooter's return is unfortunate.

I'm not looking forward to the Legionnaires Slaughterfest that is sure to come with Lo3W.

Got a favourite Shooter story to share?

Got a favourite Shooter penned comic?

I really enjoy the energy he's brought to the series. And seeing Invisible Kid in action has been the best part.

hey sorry guys I'm sure you know I can't comment on things like this either way. It is a rumour column so lets take it from there with a grain of salt.

oh and those numbers are a bit skewed, I've been told that we at least doubled the sales from the previous month which takes us to about 60 K I believe.

Thanks for providing a calming influence before we all drove ourselves nuts, Francis. Have we told you lately that your art kicks nass?

Well, we'll see. I hope it's not true because i've found that Shooter's Legion, while not quite my cup of tea, is far superior to Waid's.

At the same time, I much prefer the silver age Legion. Well, we'll know soon enough... but Rich Johnston generally checks his sources very well... Mind you, there was no trafic light indication on this

it makes sense to offer it to Shooter. by putting a top name on it, you hope to stop the bleeding and con people into thinking the book won't get dropped. don't forget, DC ran solicitations for a Flash comic that they knew wouldn't be coming out!they knew the Rogues would kill Flash, but let people think the book was continuing.

why would they treat this book and it's fans any differently?

and, if this is true, it shouldn't be a big surprise. during all the interviews about 3 worlds, and the Action Legion, has Shooter been shown to have any input? none, that I can find. it's been a Johns production first, last, and always.

I didn't like everything about Waid's writing, but as a new fan I thought he did a good job. the real blame lies with DC. think about it this way, what if this Legion was featured in the Action story? that would have helped to raise the profile of the book. the minute, they allowed Johns to say that the Action Legion was from Superman's past, this book was a dead man walking.

don't you think that was a fatal flaw?

also, here's a post from late last year. not entirely accurate, but it hits close to home.

http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004885;p=1#000000

DC should drop Didio -- on his big, fat head.

And if it so happens Shooter's run is cut short because of editorial interference/incomptetence, the disgust and loss of confidence generated would surely have a negative impact on the Johnsboot Legion as well. No one would win.

What I don't get is, what stories are you going to tell about the Johns Legion? They're all grown up! An occasional "Adult Legion" story with Superman is great, and I'm all for it, but the point of the Legion is that they are kids!

maybe they help Starman in his quest for the perfect sloppy joe.

What a poetic way to say the truth

I really like what Shooters doing, even though it seems he's doing it too late... Waids balloon just never took off...

Even though I would really prefer the Legion of old to fully return (now that we have been given a juicy taste), I would be a little sad to see this finally evolving third version to disappear again.

But in the end, the question is why it had to be done at all in the beginning - the reboot of the reboot, will it be a tiny sidenote in Legion history ten years from now?

I can really understand Shooter is p***ed of...

If this is true, the saddest thing about it is how unsurprising it is. It's so typical of DC's treatment of the Legion.

If anyone alive today deserved the chance to take the Legion and rebuild it from scratch in any way he wanted, it's Jim Shooter. If his return to the Legion turns out to be a mere lame duck run on a doomed threeboot continuity, only to be replaced by Johns's "New Earth" retconned pseudo-original Legion, I think every fan of the genuine original Legion should be pissed off as well.

As a fan of the 'original Legion,' I don't care for the Action Legion at all. I bought the comics, and was amused to see that Imra had cut off all of her hair and that Brainy had turned into an overly emotional moron, but it's not the Legion I grew up with, not by a long shot.

The Waid Legion wasn't either, but, thanks to Shooter, it's finally getting that feel again.

Just in the nick of too late, apparently.

that would actually please me a great deal. perhaps something happened when i used my mind powers on dan didio at ECCC over the weekend. if this happens, i take full credit for this, is what i'm saying. but wasn't his term supposed to not be infinite anyways? wasn't it ahhh.. 16 issues or something anyways? do they mean "after his 16 issues" or "dropped right now"?

for people concerned about this legion dying forever, from what i understood from the newsarama interviews geoff johns did on legion of threeworlds, it would end with the legion being a compression of all three into one to form a new one.

in other words, we might get querl from one legion, cos* from another, saturn girl from the third. at least that how i understood what he was saying!

*btw, another thing that makes me cry about shooter's writing is his dropping of things from the previous storyline. like.. i dunno, finding cosmic boy.

as long as manapul's still on it i'm happy!

but i don't think it's true, as much as i wish it was.

Well if this rumor is true and it does mean the end of the 3Boot book, and they keep it running until the Legion of 3 Worlds mini is done, then that would put the last issue at about issue 50. If that is the case I do hope that Shooter sticks around to finish the book out.

When I made the post, I had convinced myself I was being irreverent, but in the light of day I can see it was the wrong thing to say at the wrong time, and that I was being petty because the Shvaughn fake-out of the most recent issue really pissed me off. Also because I think Shooter Mk. 3 got off to a great start, but for the last few issue, nothing's been engaging me other than the Projectra scenes. And also, one of the side-trips in the Lardy's Roundtable thread reminded me how much I hate the Cosmic Boy-hits-Light Lass scene from Shooter Mk. 2.

I would never deny Shooter the kudos he deserves for his host of important contributions to the Legion mythos during the Adventure Era. Jerry already mentioned Emerald Empress; there's also the rest of the Fatal Five, Shadow Lass, Projectra, Mordru, the Khunds, etc. At the same time, I think that Mort Weisinger deserves as much credit for that as Shooter does, and that, like many prodigies, Shooter never equalled his earliest work (partly because, for most of his adult career, he's had no one to answer to but himself, which only underlines the importance of Weisinger's guidance. Should Shooter's current editor, Mike Marts, shoulder some of the blame for Shooter Mk. 3 being unsatisfying? I sure think so.)

In short, I kicked Shooter while he was down instead of finding a better way to express myself. I hope this post goes a way towards correcting that.

Well I hope it's not true as fjm said.

Shooter is the only guy that's come close to writing an ejoyable Post Crisis Legion IMO...he's doing it.


I don't really understand why Shooter would be offended at DC brining the Pre Crisis Version...because Shooter is a huge part of the reason that version is so popular. I think Shooter understands the Legion so I don't see him gtting offended about this.


Here's the deal...the Lightning Saga started before Shooter was even on the book...it's not like they switched in mid stream...the original Legion was back before Shooter was.


As I mentioned elsehwere...a similar line of thinking to what Johns is doing was first done by Shooter back in SLOSH #223.


I don't see this as DC changing strategy on Shooter...he knew the LS Legion had appeared, he knew their anniversiary was coming...


All that said...I do want to know why he missed that con and was extremely disappointed he didn't make the con.


I hope Shooter is back with the Legion for a while...I don't care which version it is. His version is always good IMO.

Shooter's not creatively overprotective...if he was he'd have sued DC for all the characters he created for them as a minor...like the Parasite and Mordru.

Shooter has always had a corporate mentality and been success driven over creativity driven...this does not mean he's not a creative writer, he's an extremely creative writer when he focuses on that, but at the same time I don't really see him being offended at DC being interested in a version that sells...

I think that is exactly the type of decision that Shooter would understand in fact. He's been on that side of the ball...

Shooter tends to get defensive over corporate control...not creative control...I don't see this as being something he wouldn't get...I hope it isn't.

And I personally think Didio and Johns are probably both Shooter fans...Didio is definitely a fan of that Silver Age era and Johns was probably into Marvel when Shooter was EIC.


Anyway...I've also read Shooter's comments on the Legion...I think he's one of us that feels Superboy is important to the Legion, based on what I have read from him.


I just don't see DC wanting to publish the Action Legion as being something that

A. He wasn't aware of.
B. Would make him angry.


I hope it isn't...

I think you are mistaken. In no interview Johns has implied there will be one amalgam of Legions. What is clear from his interviews is that the 3 versions are from different worlds. So, I doubt very much that the fate of the LSH is not tied to Final Crisis big time, as Johns' last interview has pointed out very clearly. If one of each survives, we can always get a different one from one of the other 40-something worlds available. Why not LSH from Kingdom Come?
In fact, most people were in shock when Giffen mentioned the "hat trick" during his run. Editorial vetoed that then.

I also don't think Shooter has dropped Cos plot. He has mentioned in a couple of issues that Cos is indeed missing. And I am pretty sure his disappearance has got to do with Time Trapper and Final Crisis: L3W.

Oh, and Action Legion IS NOT THE ORIGINAL LEGION. That would be TMK's Legion.

No the Original Legion Died when John Byrne's Man of Steel came out,AND THE LAST PERSON TO WRITE THE ORIGINAL LEGION WAS PAUL LEVITZ.

Paul Levitz quote after reading the 4 or 5 years that had been done after his run--in a weekend,That would be TMK's Legion (I don't think I've had a more painful weekend that I didn't spend in a Hospital)

Well, if that is the case, you are wrong. Byrne's MOS happened when LSH v4 was already on issue 3. Technically, that makes v4 still the last version of Legion. And as any reader can notice, v4 had a retcon, but not a reboot.
As for your last sensence, I really couldn't understand it. Sorry.

gee, it would be really nice if LSH had an editor that cared enough to make a clarifying statement. if nothing else it might bring the book(s) some attention and sales.

Pre-Crisis Legion = Original Legion, When Kal-El was removed from the Legion it was no longer the ORIGINAL LEGION.

And Levitz was saying TMK's so called version of the Legion made him Sick.

So I am still right: up until LSH v4 3...
I've never seen such quote from Levitz. It seems in fact very far fetched from his gentle character. However, his opinions wouldn't change the fact that the 5-Year-Gap is still within the old chronology.

It does. Very nice post. We wouldn't be Legion World without some irrerevance and our strong opinions. You are right that Weisinger's role shouldn't be overlooked (and, unfortunately, often is). The Shvaughn cover switch upset me too.

Don't we have some threads on the Cosmic Boy slap somewhere?
I was a kid when it was published, and sadly, didn't bat an eye at it or realize how disturbing it was until years later. Do you think that Grell's artwork made it made it appear more graphic and brutal than Shooter imagined it? Not that that excuses it, but I've come to assign as much responsibilty to Grell for the insensetivity as Shooter.

ah, knowing how detailed dc's scripts are, i would say that this is shooter's responsibility. also, it's not like the writer doesn't see the pages before they're handed off to an inker, the writer ALWAYS looks at pages before they're done to make sure there's no confusion (i can tell you cute stories with translation problems with overseas/english-as-a-second-language artists). also, it goes by an editor as well.

so, having worked as an editor, i would really assign responsibility to the editor and the writer... but as an artist, i personally feel it's an artist's job to speak up when something is inappropriate. If the artist doesn't want to talk to the writer directly, they can talk to the editor and then there's more people to talk to if that doesn't work out. it's just like any job where there's something shady going on.

now... THAT said, sometimes i think even an INKER or a COLORIST is at fault for the presentation of a scene! particularly breast depiction seems to change somewhere between a penciller and the finished product.

anyways... i blame shooter and the editor because i dislike him and I'm 5.

since when? i think that during most of the "original legion" run, they were all grown-ups.
i think that the point of the legion is that they send a message of peace and tolerance.

i'd be sad too to see shooter end his run on the legion. but what i really want to see is an action comics legion ongoing, no matter who writes it!

As long as there is a recognizable Legion, I will likely read it.

My preference:

A Johnny DC Legion

A DCU Legion (Lightning Saga legion if some non-overly-insulting continuity can be constructed)

A Wildstorm Legion (preferably the Threeboot Legion -- Bedard/Calero vision, but more likely the Legion that's currently in Dreamwar)

oh -- and a cartoon and more Happy Meal toys . . . and a real flight ring and a puppy

I feel like I've been through this before--like three times!

I'm not surprised by anything DC does anymore other than being pleasantly surprised when I pick up quality work.

Unfortunately, Cobie, that quality work is getting scarce at the Big Two. Hype and promotion in the media don't make for good reading although it does make for good sales.

Hiya Ricardo, welcome to the board. Nice to see you again (it is you, isn't it? From way back on LSH List?)

My opinion about a possible Amagamation: I never thought much of Giffens Hat Trick idea. I believe it to be one of the few bad ideas of the TMK era, which I still love and was thrilled about again rereading it recently.

I believe that an Amagamation Legion would alienate all the Legion fans - Classic lovers, Reboot lovers, Threeboot lovers. TMK has vanished to an Elseworld long ago anyway (greatest Elseworld ever, isn't this something?)

So it would give Legion fans something everybody would probably hate for all different reasons. This can't be the way. If it actually IS the plan, I consider this the definite end of the Legion. The book would probably not survive this.

Until, of course, they would start a Fourboot in 2012 or so...

That's what I expect. Superboy-Prime will butcher 2/3rds of the Legions of Three Worlds and we'll get some bastard collage of unrelated characters who've never even heard of each other.

So we'll get the thrill of watching 40 or so Legionnaires be decapitated, punched through or cut in half by 'heat vision,' every single one of them *someone's* favorite character (or interpretation of a character) and only people who pretty much loathe the Legion and everything it's ever stood for will enjoy watching a version of *Superboy* kill off his childhood friends, who, in some distant fantasy continuity, helped him discover what it meant to be a hero.

[sarc] Woo. I can hardly wait. [/sarc]

Hope for the best, plan for the worst, realize it's somewhere in the middle.

I believe Mr. Shooter has the ability to write for ANY version or amalgamation of the Legion, and I hope he stays on and takes the challenge of writing more interesting tales of the Legion no matter what the Lo3W series brings.

I'd like the current creative team to spend at least 3 years on the title, or more if they like.

I can't add much to what Veryvery said, except that I think the editor (I think it was Murray Boltinoff) was the one who made the final judgement call. Ideally, he could have and should have told Shooter and Grell to re-write and re-draw the scene without the offensive content. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

Actually....you're wrong. No version anything of the Legion was on issue #3 when the Man Of Steel came out.


The Man of Steel came out in 1986...the first issue of version V4 Didn't come out until 1989, 3 years later.


And V4 wasn't tied into anything, especially after they retconned Superboy out...little details like, oh, the original appearance of the team, never happened...and other little details like, oh, the original appearance of Mordru couldn't have happened either...not to mention things like the complete and total alteration of Brainiac 5's entire life as a Legionaire.


No...V4 is at best, concerning the original, a mutiltated, gutted version of original Legion set in a completely dystopian future(as opposed to the Utopian of the original Legion), on a completely different Earth, in a completely different Universe.


The original Legion was on Earth 1 and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's time line.


V4 was on Earth only, the Post Crisis Earth, and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's timeline.


Different DC Universe. Different Earth....it's right there in LSH V3 #37(which was some 28 issues before V4 #3) when the Legion meet the Post Crisis Superman and are established as being a part of his Earth, his timeline.

The orginal Legion, they met and knew the Superman of Earth 1, not as Superboy, but as Superman as well...the V4 Legion never met the Superman of Earth 1.


I mean saying it the V4 was the original Legion would mean the original Legion was the first Post Crisis book published by DC...publishd some 25 years before the actual Crisis...

LOL, the original Legion had Krypto...I don't see him as being a big tying point to the Post Crisis Earth.


I'd say removing the central character of the books first 20 years, was pretty massive...

I know most fans of later Legions don't agree...they also can't figure out why the fans don't embrace those Legions like they did previously...it's pretty easy to see why for me.


It's not because of Cosmic Boy's characterization is different...trust me, most people don't really notice that, nor do they care.


What he was saying was that when Paul Levitz finally got around to reading the 5YG Legion, which was some 5 years after it was first published, he said it was the worst weekend of his life spent outside of a hospital.

He says it in the Legion Compantion, and he reiterated it a few weeks ago at the New York Comicon...

And he was sitting right next to Keith Giffen when he said it...


Which then prompted an explantion from Keith Giffen...

He basically said he didn't intend to permanently destroy the Legion's future by tuning it into a dark dystopian future that was completely unrecognizable from the future of the original Legion, he said it was only meant to be temporary.

In other interviews he has said he was doing the best he could, as did the Bierbaums, of working around DC's editorial policy concerning Superman at that time. Which was a huge problem considering they had a great deal of stories they wanted to tell but couldn't since they couldn't even reference Superman.


In short, the only rationale for calling the V4 the original is because at the time, DC said so. Because there's no logical tie you can come up with by reading that version of the Legion. The books lack of appeal with a new or old audience equalling the old...hammers this point home.

It's simply lays claim to being the original, because I guess DC said it was.


DC isn't saying that anymore, now they're saying the Action Legion is. The difference is, the Action Legion does have similiarities, well, it at least has the essential similarity, of being part of the Superman Family, and is pretty recognizable as the original.


For instance Dawnstar...didn't take me 30 issues to realize that was her(and the creators didn't need to tell me it was her), I simply looked at her and recognized it as being her. Completely different from my experience in V4 where only liks 2 people(and I'm not one of them) recognized Dawnstar before the creators had to directly explain in story that she was Bounty.


Sorry, but V4 was not the original Legion, and if it was, it was only because DC said so. And they aren't saying that anymore, they haven't been saying it for a long time, like since the first time they had to reboot it.


DC says a lot of things...in this case, they said it was the original...and the fans of the original said otherwise when they didn't support it.

They said Mon-El was now Superboy and the casual fans said otehrwise when they didn't recognize Mon-El from Adam...and his series was cancelled after 20 issues.


Saying something is doesn't make it so...and that's definitely true with V4 and it's claims of being the original Legion. Ultimately, that decision will be made by the fans(both old and new), and their interest, or lack of it...

I see this entire thread gets into typical Legion-fan turf: bash any version of Legion that isn't the poster's favorite.

The only "original" Legion was Adventure #247; every Legion that has appeared since has had differences. Levitz was a beloved era (including by me), but was no more or less "original" than any other.

It is a shame that Shooter's talent would be squandered, if the rumor is true. Even those of us not 100% thrilled with all of his issues thus far might hopefully agree upon that.

Unilateral declarations of dropping the book do not impress me, frankly. Bravo, you've drawn lines in the sand. The Legion has made it through far worse periods than this. I fail to see how demonizing Johns makes anything remotely better.

I didn't bash it...I merely stated the truth.


And I feel the point I am making is essential for all Legion fans for one simple reason...


All of us, I believe, all of us, hate the continual massive retcons and reboots to this book. I am not talking about minor ones. I am talking about gutting huge swaths of it's history...which has been done basically 4 times now since 1986, the first one was done out of a stupid editorial policy...all the others were done for commercial reasons.


I see this debate go on and on between Legion fans...how to keep the book from being rebooted, how to make it better...and most of it is stuff DC has been doing for the past 20 years that failed to attract a new audience on the level DC sought.

As a long time fan, I know why DC keeps rebooting this book, becuase they once had a ravenous fan base that impacted the companies decision making with their commercial buying power. They once had a book that was consistently one of DC's elite sellers from the Silver Age all the way up until 1986.


This book hasn't lost favor because of bad writing...

They have had gifted writers attempt to do this book...

Mark Waid
Gail Simone
Keith Giffen
Roger Stern
DnA..

Those guys are not hacks...they are like a whos who k=list of hot writers over the past 2 decades of comics...yet they have all hit the wall.

I feel pointing out that huge demarkation point between the Pre Crisis Legion and the Post Crisis Legion, all the Post Crisis Legions is essential to the books continued publication...and that is something I want.

And I have been silent for most of the past 25 years. I've given every Legion a chance, I've bought them all more or less regularly...but now I see the one that IMO will achieve DC's goals...it just so happens to be my personal favorite..and I will fight to keep DC(and hardocre Legion fans and creators) from making the same mistake they made originally...and that's underestimating the importance of Superman to this title's ability to be an elite(and thus less frequently rebooted) seller.


Some way more major than others...and the failure to realize this is what has lead to the books bidecadal rebootings for the better part of 2 decades.

It aint the writing.


I agree...I hope DC didn't just Shooter as some sort of fodder...I don't think they did that though...you can accuse Didio of many things, but not being a fan of oldschool writers isn't one of them...he's definitely a fan of them.

People shouldn't have to buy a book they don't want to read...and I say this as a guy who has bought all the versions of the Legion. And you can be a true Legion fan without embracing all Legions...if you don't like it you shouldn't have to read it, there should be no loaylty there if the things that made you loyal are no longer there.

I personally understand that everyone does have their favorite...more power to them, my issue is ending the bidecadal reboots, and that's not going to happen until they get a version that sells at the level they want it too...and that's not going to happen until DC either gets Alan Moore(or perhaps Jim Shooter himself) to write the book...or figures out what was so conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place.

It's not a matter of caring. They don't seem to respond to rumors as a matter of course.

It might be nice if they did, but DC isn't responsible if people drive themselves bat-**** crazy over one line in a rumor column.

You assume that what was "conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place" is actually going to sell well in today's market. And I see no reason to think it would.

What does sell these days is events. And what will make the Legion sell is when they can convince Joe Blow DC fan that buying the latest issue of the Legion will be necessary to follow the events of the latest, greatest company-wide crossover, and that if they don't follow the Legion they won't be there for the vast changes that will ripple throughout the entire DC Universe. And since that seems to be exactly where DC has decided the Legion needs to go, they probably will be successful in making it a big seller again.

Which makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of DC as corporate, money-making entity. But has so little to do with what this Legion fan wants from a Legion title that it isn't even funny.

This is not exactly an answer to Superboy, but more of my interpretation - take it as you like it.

I don't see how the LSH can be considered as "over" Post-Crisis for Superman being ret-conned out of LSH's continuity. Most of what came before was still acknowledged. Characters were still the same. Chronology was still in place. And, in spite of Superman's definitive importance on the creation of LSH, for me, he was never the essence of LSH. The idea that characters matured (meaning: time passes) has always been much more important to the concept of LSH than Superman in terms of storytelling.

That's why for me TKM's is still the very same LSH (with continuity problems? You bet, but not more so than X-Men) - most of the stories in the past were still valid (considering Mon-El substituted for Superboy/Superman). You found it hard to recognize Bounty as Dawnstar? This has probably more to Keith's intricate art than to storytelling. Call Ty Templeton for easier artist comprehension...

TKM's didn't change the characters, IMHO. It changed the whole environment of the book. And this was brilliant - because it brought the whole history of LSH to its maximum test. It may have polarized (which is what good comics do), but as for how people still give TMK's run its passionate following, it is hardly a "everybody hates" deal (like, uh, Tom McCraw's).

Reboot is ignoring EVERYTHING. This was what Zero Hour did. Not only that, everything was different. Gone were history, characters, concept... Ditto for Waid/Kitson's reboot. Theoretically, the idea of youth against adults makes some sense, but the way it was presented sounded absolutely simplistic and formulaic. I imagine that the 31st Century would be even more "gray-ish" than today. But not with Waid: everything was black and white.

That's the strenght of Jim Shooter's current run: he gave up on that, focusing more on the political dealings of the Legion and UP. Now I can see some sides (not simply ALL youth against ALL adults), some alliances. Characters started showing difficulties in handling leadership (isn't it obvious? So far, every Legionnaire was a natural born leader!)...

Just my 0.02. And, no, TMK's was still part of the original LSH run. Well, even Legion On The Run was part of it (unfortunately). The whole ship went down on Zero Hour.

Ricardo, Superboy and anyone else interested in discussing this post-Crisis reboot interpretation in depth, please consider stopping by the Roundtable--where, beginning with this post , we're currently debating this very subject as inspired by the train of thought began here! Looks like a very lively subject, indeed!

I know it sold well the last time it was available, and it didn't get retconned because it stopped selling.

I've seen absolutely no evidence to indicate I might be wrong either...I have seen multiple versions of the Legion sans Superman not sell well though...and I don't think it was because of the writing.

And the sales performance of the Action Legion does seem to indicate I might be right. It sold well...

I think Superman is what makes the Legion unique...after all, he's not been a member of many teams, and the Legion was his first. I think he is a sales boost in Team Books...I think this is pretty well proven in the Justice League...


IT's a simple matter of the Legion's future world becoming more inviting and familiar with a well known character being a part of it. I think that is a cross generational appeal...and I think it will improve the books chances of success.


If you think about it...most successful teams do have a marquee character that is instantly recognizable, and the Legion really does not without Superman.

I realize trying to convice a Legion diehard of that is an impossible task...but I do think it's the truth.

I think if you just trot the Legion out there by itself...it's a typical Superteam...and one without the benefit of well known characters or even a Universe to operate in.

It's different for people that don't know the Legion than it is for people that do, and it's not the people that know the Legion that are the problem, it's the one's that don't....that's what I think.


DC's been trying to make it a big seller again for a long time...but it's just another team, and not a particularly inviting one for new readers.

Well everyone wants something different...but like I said, you aren't the problem, I'm not the problem...DC has us already...we're the 17-30k monthlyh that buy just about anything with the name Legion on it...DC doesn't have to worry about us...and in fact worrying about us, catering to us...is what has made the book inaccesible to new readers, for the most part.


Again...on this board, looking around you'd think the #1 character in all of comicdom that should be given his own solo series is Brainiac 5...but it just wouldn't go over that way with people that aren't reading the Legion.

That's what I think...DC has done a bunch of Post Crisis Legion, they've tried different things...but in one way they've all been similar, and that similarity is why we sit here fans of an oft rebooted and confusing title with a fragmented and frustrated fan base.

Assuming that the rumor is true (which it very well may not be) there is another posibility. If Shooter left it could be for personal reasons, not necesarily because of sales, sexuality, plots, or other comic related issues. People leave jobs for many other reasons other than just their work. It is also possible there were other issues in office not necessarily Legion related.

Even if this is true (Shooter leaving) why does it mean the end of the comic? Why does it mean they HAVE to start a new one? It doesn't! A new writer could come on and take over the curent title even if it is temporary until they find a solid writer they want that stays.

I wouldn't automatically assume the worst of anyone in this situation. Other than a rumor posted elsewhere on the net, there are no facts that I have seen. I suggest we enjoy the comic for what it is and each of us can choose what we will do based on what really happens when we find out.

Phantom Girl is right.

If the rumor is true, it could just be everyone's favorite "creative differences". And it wouldn't be the first time Shooter would be associated to those words.

Lardy- I'll be sure to join that discussion.


Ricardo - Just sayin', the MOS Mini came out 3 years before V4. IIRC The Pocket Universe Story came crossed over with Superman V2 #8 at the time Legion V3 #37 came out...so that means the MOS came out @ Legion V3 #28 was being published...add in the remaining 34 issues of the V3 Legion, the 3 month gap between the final issue of V3 and V4#1, and you are talking a period of well over 3 years.


For me it's like this...if you have a vase and the vase is shattered with some of the pieces lost forever, and you glue the remaining pieces together with a couple of replacement pieces thrown in...

Is it still the original?

If the Mona Lisa is lost and DaVinci paints an exact duplicate of it with the exception that the Mona Lisa herself is now a blonde...or has a mustache, is it the original?


And FWIW....to my recollection, the first time I ever heard the term reboot used to describe any comic continuity was by Tom and Mary Bierbaum describing their Legion work. IIRC, they said they didn't want to do a full reboot of the Legion...they said it around the time they were writing the Legion. In fact it might even be in one of the lettercols of V4.

Anyway....just to do my part to get this back on track(sorry guys)..


Like I said earlier...the Lightning Saga Legion was coming out before Shooter was back on the book.


Not to mention the fact that the publisher of DC is both a Shooter friend as well as a fan...a huge fan of Jim Shooter the Legion writer...probably the Fan most excited about Shooter's return to the Legion was Paul Levitz himself...and he's mentioned recently how much he's enjoying reading Shooter's Legion.

Jim Shooter's Legion for all we know is the reason Paul Levitz is even in comics...and they have a friendship going back 3 decades...


I dont' see Paul Levitz allowing Jim Shooter to be treated that way...it's one thing to not give him work with the company because of potential chemistry issues...it's entirely another to give him work and then unceremoniously rip it away from him.

Paul Levitz is generally well liked and has avoided controversy for most of his DC career...this would be a huge departure from the low-key way he's done things historically.



It's tricky...LITG was the column where his return was first rumored...and now it's saying his ouster is rumored...so LITG saying this does carry a fair amouunt of credibility...

At the same time...it doesn't add up, becuase Johns was doing his Legion thing before Shooter was even back...


Now if you guys want to say that Johns Legion is the reason Mark Waid and Barry Kitson bailed on the book...I could see a lot of legitimate reasons to speculate there...

Maybe Shooter was sick and tired of listening to Geoff Johns saying his reboot is the original Legion, and decided not to keep quiet about it.

Or maybe he got a look at LO3W and busted a gut.

to paraphrase a famous line: Executives do not have permanent friends or enemies. Merely permanent interests.

As far as I know, Waid quit because Kitson got exclusive with Marvel and he didn't want to continue without his co-plotter.

i have come to know a person (who can't keep a secret to save his life)who knows whats going on with dc and the legion who has dropped the bombshell of big news on me

then told me i cant tell a soul...i and i wont cause i like hanging out with him and his wife

you can always PM one of us.

Waid or Kitson had said very early in the threeboot run that they anticipated working on the book for only two or three years.

Mark Waid\'s take on Rich Johnston Perhaps over the top, but not indefensible.

id like to really i would, thats why i haven't posted in over a week..i was trying to think of away around what i prommsied, but my source rocks and i promised.

and him and his wife promised to do something with me in 2 weeks, if i want to do that fun thing, what i tell could end that so i have to keep my mouth shut.

by the way some in here is right about something

Is it any good, at least?

But... wait. You are from NJ... That's Keith Giffen's lair... hummmm.

to some it can be good, to others its going to blow

no i live in ny now

it is someone who has worked on the legion

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people?

Hmmm, you are probably right..but Barry did leave around the time of the LS Legion IIRC. True they did say they'd only be on the book about 3 years though. Anyway Barry is a poster on these boards, not to mention a complete and total gentleman, so I won't cast doubt on why he said he left...at the same time, if Barry had other reasons like creative issues, he'd probably never mention them publicly. At least that's the impression I get...he's a complete and total pro.

So I am completely speculating here...

But here's the deal though...

Mark Waid was a part of every rebooted version of the Legion...and his frustrations with DC's editorial policy concerning Superman and the Legion have been pretty well documented in interviws...as have his favorite Legion stories and characters...


Mark Waid has more or less had the post crisis bullseyes of Legion Fan anger smack dab on his forhead for 20 years....as he's been one of the guys asked every time to carry out DC's Post Crisis editorial mandate...

In short, Mark Waid never got to write his Legion, the one he grew up reading...he was instead given the task of creating a new or radically altered one...one not necessarily of his own creative desires and free vision...and he has gotten the brunt of the fan backlash, much more deservedly aimed at DC Brass, because of it.

Mark Waid is a Legion Fan...an oldschool diehard Legion Fan, he's also an oldschool diehard Superman Fan...and he never got the opportunity to write the Legion that Superman was a part of.


You know what he cites as his favorite Legion story? Adventure Comics #369-370...the introduction of Mordru...which just so happened to be a time travel story back to smallville involving Pete Ross and even the Insect Queen.

Mark Waid has said elements that story can be seen in everything he has ever written...yet he never got to write a story remotely resembling that one with the Legion.


Lo and behold, in waltzes John and boom...he gets the Legion where Superman is allowed to be mentioned.


You don't think that would be an enormous amount of salt in the literary wounds of Mark Waid?


I do...it would be to me. I'd be pulling my hair out over it.


Maybe he was just tired of doing the book and didn't really care much...but this guy was an extreme Legion Fan who knew the book inside and out...who was chosen to put together the Legion Indexes and did so with a painstaking attention to detail. It just seems odd that he never got to write the Legion he grew up reading, and yet he's probably written more Legion stories than all but about 2 Legion creators.

Superboy is back (you have been away for some time, haven't you?), Ricardo is back (well not on this board but in Legion fandom), Shooter is back, the old discussions are running again...

... Legion fandom how I like it! And this is just the beginning, I guess we cannot imagine how heated the discussion will become when Legion of 3 Worlds is hitting the stands...

I don't know, Superboy, but it seems a bit too much. Mark Waid was the first editor of TMKs (after Karen Berger). So he knew what would be coming up. Also, Mark Waid is one of the guys with more power in the DC Universe. I highly doubt he quit for not doing whatever he wanted on the book (hey, he had Supergirl for a while).

Barry left for Marvel to work on Spider-Man, hardly an offer he would turn down AND with Waid. So I wouldn't see LSH editorial as a problem. Sales dropped more abruptly after they quit, but things were always comfortable while they ran the show. Hey, they even got to have a lettercol for a while!

didnt they kill super boy cause they lost the rights to his name?

remember before they hinted that they were going to add superboy at the end of 15?

and then there was the mess with super girl

You are talking about more recent stuff. At that time, the only reason LSH had to lose Superboy was because he had never existed under Byrne's chronology.

To be frank, this has never bothered me. I think Zero Hour was much more damaging to the entire DC Universe than any Mike Carlin decision. Not to mention one of the worst stories ever told.

I have to confess that a strong feeling of despair has descended on me the last few days as a result of this topic. I'm not blaming, just sharing. Say what you want about the 3boot, flawed, misdirected, whatever, Waid and especially Barry put a lot into it, and it had a lot of charm and promise at the beginning, that Shooter (and Bedard, too) have recovered quite nicely after 2 years of 52, Supergirl, and the Dominators. (BTW, I love the Dominators, but after TMK and the 3Boot, we need a 5-year cooling-off period. Make it 10 years.) I really enjoyed the Action/Legion story, but as I've said before, those Legionnaires are all grown up (and have repugnant fashion sense). I don't want to read an ONGOING adult Legion series. Regular guest appearances with Superman are fine, but a grown-up Legion is a finished Legion. On a deeper level, I love the original Legion, but their story got finished. Poorly, yes, but it did finish. I keep catching glimpses of the Johns Legion as reanimated zombies with pretty skin and ugly clothes on top.

The source of my despair, I think, is that there is no recoverable solution to all of this that looks like anything other than a Frankenstein's monster. The 3boot is not particularly popular or successful, and has no connection to Superman. Same for the 2boot. The 1boot has been reanimated, but mainly FOR Superman. And, I just want to read LEGION stories, with recognizable characters that I love. I DON'T want to read re-hashes of stories from the 1960s. I want new stories about my beloved characters. I want to be surprised, delighted, scared, and horrified. I want the boundless promise of a bright future inhabited by these wonderful characters, not the eternal recurrence of apocalyptic spasmns that has defined the Legion since 1989. I don't know that my love for the Legion will surive a Johns blood bath. I don't know that I can tolerate DC jerking around Shooter or Manapul. I'm just tired, and despairing. I like and respect much of Johns's work, but the body count is too much when it comes to the Legion.

I look at the reboots and see rehashed stories,heroes and villians,and I liked them better the first go around.

I watched the Legion grow up and loved it,that with their rich 30 years of history and characters made the story telling possibilities unlimited,With COIE all that material got took away and what came after to me was Generic Versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes.

From the moment the Pocket Universe Superboy was introduced the Legion seemed less like the Legion,And then with 5 years later while it had some of the Original Legion left in it,It turned out to be the final nail in what little was left of the Original Legion's coffin.

I feel your pain, guys! Reading that there's a good chance Shooter's been derailed sent me on an emo-spiral in which I may finally be about to have enough of all the effing around that's constantly being done with my favorite comics characters.

In particular, the poster Superboy's post to this thread here helped me put my finger on my frustration. Ever since Superboy was retconned as a Pocket Universe doppleganger, as Lone Wolf states, it's just been one thing after another. And if Shooter's being yanked already before even having a chance to finish his first big arc, it's just too much.

We've been talking heavily about this starting here in "Lardy's Roundtable" if you guys are interested in checking it out and putting in your two cents. It's been quite cathartic, I'd say.

Is Jim Shooter leaving? I don't know but I hope not. Ditto for FJM.

But clearly DC have decided rightly or wrongly to put out a story that will re-reboot de-boot amalgamate or whatever.

As a Shooter and Levitz fan of old, the original Legion is the one I watched grow up from raw kids to young adults. Keith Giffen tried to take that further but the retconning completely destroyed his effort - and not all of it was forced by changes in the DCU, remember the arbitrary renaming of Triplicate Girl to Triad. The first reboot was an attempt to get the Legionnaires spin-off without the baggage and the 3boot anti adults just sucked.

We need a Legion that is true to its roots and is well written and well drawn. Whatever comes out of Lo3W, the right writer and artist can take it forward. the wrong writer/artist and I fear the Legion won't make 52.

The current Legion creative team would succeed as I'm sure Johns and Perez would. Let's just hope in two years time this isn't a 'bring back the Legion' website.

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My guess is this may be a troll. Hopefully, I am wrong and just jaded from too many trolls on other message boards. If not a troll, I apologize.

More on the same story in LITG this week

"Yeah, so what happened with that Jim-Shooter-off-Legion thing? Industry gossip has the move down to the "Legion Of Three Worlds" series that trampled on what Shooter saw as his plans for his series. And, so, vamoose."

Well, that just bites donkey bits.

Okay, if Geoff is gonna be doing the Legion after 3wd's and still on GL and JSA, okay. I'm not happy that Shooter is gone, because i think he was just starting to find his groove and the book was headed up.

I was actually looking forward to it each month for the first time in several years. That isn't a shot at Waid or Kitson, i love Barry's art and have had the pleasure of telling him online before. Waid has been hit or miss for me, his latest on Flash a miss and the stuff here, while well imagined, just didn't have that legion flare.

But Shooter?! Lets face it, folks, he is one of the reasons this book exists,and he did it as a kid. His writing has matured greatly, and his storytelling skills.

I am sad to see him go if it is true.

I have been enjoying Shooter's run more and more with each issue. What he and Manapul have accomplished on this book has been highly entertaining and the most I've enjoyed Legion since "Legion Lost." Jim Shooter is one of my favorite writers and will be really disappointed to see him go.

Lying in the gutters is sustaining their gossip from last week, blaming it on L3W (not surprisingly). I mean, there was nobody from LSH on the L3W panel on the recent NYComicCon.

Is there any confirmation that Shooter is off LSH? All we have is the rumors swirling after he pulled out of the Bristol Comic Expo. I thought Shooter was pretty notorious for not attending conventions. (In fact, it is not uncommon for cons to advertise appearances by major figures even though they are not 100% certain they will be appearing. That's why all cons have disclaimers that appearances are not guaranteed.)

But if Shooter was being moved to a L3W book following the mini, I can understand his leaving. Why waste the next several months developing characters and plots -- a salvage job if ever there was one -- when they are all going to get reconned anyway? It sucks because I am really enjoying the development of the characters. I know a lot of readers find Shooter's stories moving too slowly, but have always enjoyed the focus on the character interactions and developments in LSH, and I think Waid really failed to develop any interesting characters.

Well, I find interesting that Rich Johnston con tinued to build up on the rumour this week. it certainly means it wasn't denied the first time around.

Seven pages and it's still an unconfirmed rumor? I wish they'd just straighten all of this out. It sure looks like DC is going to f*** all of this up AGAIN, just in time for the 50th anniversary. I'll definitely get L3W, but I may be at the end of my rope if there is another retcon--unless it's a retcon that gives me back preZero Hour Legion. But then it's sure to be cancelled soon after, because that will alienate more fans than it makes happy.

I am pretty sure that Legion will be back exactly at the time before the first Crisis (that's how Geoff's mind seems to work) and, for that reason, Shooter is out (since he had not a say in this story). My guess. All the rest will be considered "alternate timeline" or something.

Guys,

DC Comics is a business. They'll do whatever they think makes them the most money. FYI, sales on the book now are about where they were when DnA were on the title, and they weren't happy with those numbers then. Why would they be happy with those numbers now?

exactly the same as before the first crisis? or Geoff Johns' pickin' anna choosin'?
so... Supergirl/Brainy romance? Wildfire in Red Tornado body or not? Karate Kid dead? the Legionnaires are in their 20's? Did Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad have Graym and Validus yet? Were Tyroc and Chemical King and Quislet and Tellus members? Fortress Lad was the first Legion Clubhouse? hmmm...

Because these numbers are still better than most of the rest of DC titles which have dropped sensibly more?

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My guess is this may be a troll. Hopefully, I am wrong and just jaded from too many trolls on other message boards. If not a troll, I apologize. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i promises that im not a troll, all i cant tell you is that some ppl are right about a few things
and that the news is going to make some ppl very happy, and others very mad...i was not happy when i herd the news

Hopefully "whatever" doesn't include railroading a legendary Legion creator, riding roughshod over his 50th annivesary plans, and possibly allowing some of his ideas to be hijacked for LO3W -- because that scenario most definitely would *not* be a wise business decision in the best interests of the franchise.

This is the Legion's most special year. Sales should not be a dominant factor in allowing Shooter to complete his self-contained 16 issues. It would cost DC much more in damage control and loss of face if he's dropped or quits than it would to publish the story whole for posterity.

Any which way you look at it, these rumors reek of behind-the-scenes editorial conflict and incompetence, mismanagement of creative assets and bad faith dealing. If that's how DC has to make its money, it's already sunk.

Well, as far as I know, Mike Marts is a newbie on LSH in all terms. That's what it sounded like in his Newsarama interview. And I found it very odd he mentioned Shooter more as a pass-by than focusing on his importance.

By "editorial conflict and incompetence", and "bad faith dealing", I wasn't referring to Marts. A train wreck of this size would have to be the work of Danny Dearest. If not his personal handiwork, his responsibility to prevent.

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My guess is this may be a troll. Hopefully, I am wrong and just jaded from too many trolls on other message boards. If not a troll, I apologize. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i promises that im not a troll, all i cant tell you is that some ppl are right about a few things
and that the news is going to make some ppl very happy, and others very mad...i was not happy when i herd the news</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, whatever decision is made, they can't please everyone because Legion has been so messed up in the past 15 years there's no way they can please both the older fans and the newer ones.

To be fair, there's apparently been some people un happy at DC that Shooter was offered the job in the first place. He might be a legendary Legion writer (and quite a legend in his own right), but he's made a lot of enemies in his carreer. Which is why "creative differences" wouldn't seem too surprising to me.

I also believe that the only reasonable return to "para-classic Legion" would have to do something with CoiE - probably taking everything before as canon (unfortunately, they will leave some things out that don't fit into their plans) and picking out some stuff from afterwards which is then added to the canon, like Sensor Girl for example.

This will alienate many AR fans and new fans alike. To me, it's way better than Archie Legion and Threeboot combined, even though I have to sacrifice my beloved 5YL to the Elsworld cosmos. But that's just my opinion: Better a para-classic Legion in full bloom than another all-new one or (shudder!!!) an amalgam version...

AS pity to see Shooter screwed, though...

Definitely agree on the Shooter Screw.. shouldn't be done to any decent creator (although I still hope it's just a rumor)...

From the point of view of the Company/Producer it was maybe a artistic/creative masterpiece but (foreseeable) a marketing mistake to get Shooter on the Legion.

Shooter is by now one of the "old daddies" with a chequered history in comics. A boon for old fans, but not really actively attractive for new readers... = dwindling, at best stable sales figures

On the other hand, at the same time put on hotshot Geoff Johns on the project, give it back its original tie with one of the most profiteable icons in your product line... = instant success.

Sooo - was Shooter set for failure from the beginning? Before fjm pencilled the first page?

Actually, I don't wanna know...makes me sad

And for the record - I don't think the Action Legion will/would have a long lasting success.
The Johns Formula would necessarily run out of new stories to tell.

I firmly believe that Shooter/Manapul - given enough time - might have pulled / may pull the Legion through to (modest) success

Is Cary Bates the new writer????

I totally agree with I-Man about the Shooter/Manapul team creating some great stories, given time.

The problem is with the constant retcons, reboots, do-overs, etc. DC needs to draw a starting line in the sand, then permit a creative team to go from there for at least a few years. Starting over takes at least that long just to get momentum up, and since it's been tried enough times already, and failed every time, it's obviously not the way to go.

I've never been a big fan of Waid's reboot, but it's here. Mr. Shooter has done a good job picking up the pieces and going forward. In a year's time I'm confident he would get the title to a point where it's HIS Legion and entertaining stories will flow naturally. Given the chance, of course.

PS - Where did "Is Cary Bates the new writer?" come from?

why?

I think because Cary Bates is writing again for Marvel.

I don't know, if Shooter is off the Legion (big IF) than it is reasonable to assume that is because the 3boot is going away and that Johns' Legion will be taking over.

In a way I'm conflicted over this and will probably have to wait until Lo3W is finished before I can tell if I'm happy or not.

Happy that Shooter might get screwed over: No
Happy that current arc probably won't get wrapped up: No
Happy that original legion is returning: Yes
Happy over some of the changes Johns has made: No

I'm starting to warm up to the 3boot and I'm really looking forward to some exciting stories. I feel that the Johns Legion will spend far more time tugging at the ole nostolgia heartstrings and telling SUPERMAN stories rather than giving us Legion stories and moving the Legion forward.

I want the 50th anniversary year to be a celebration of the legion, not tearing down (again) something to replace it with something else.

Also, I'll go out and say it, I don't think Johns is going to give us the 'original' Legion, he is going to give us the 'original' Legion with some twists, just like we've been getting since the Pocket Universe hit.

if i had to guess, i'd say that nobody foresaw the overwhelming response to John's Lightning Saga. when that happened and the net was swarming with positive screams of "They're back! the original Legion magic is back!", they planned a sequel in Action.
DC editorial, still sticking by the vow to Waid that his newboot would be this earth's legion, asked for tweaking of the costumes for Johns' Legion so as not to confuse readers.
And proceeded with 50 anniversary plans for Shooter to take on the current series. Again the Johns' legion appearance in Action sold really well, and DC editorial saw a trend. the legion was stronger with Superman/boy. they gave the go ahead for adding Legion of 3 worlds into Final Crisis with one legion continuing into it's own book. this inadvertently screwed Shooter who was told his job was to revive the franchise using Waid's boot.
Francis? can you comment on any of this?

I feel exactly what Steph said:
"... that the Johns Legion will spend far more time tugging at the ole nostolgia heartstrings and telling SUPERMAN stories rather than giving us Legion stories and moving the Legion forward."

Either that or some "Heirs/sons/legacy of the Legion" stuff.

Which would not be bad in itself... but not what I would like if I could have ... 3boot, for example

Cary Bates has said to Newsarama he will be writing for DC in late 2009 a project related to some previous characters he was heavily associated with. Since he basically wrote most of DC books, it can be LSH as any other book. Also, it is in about a year and a half. More like a project than a monthly assignment.

Jesus effin' Hockeysticks--I actually laughed out loud at the Cary Bates reference. Then I go further down the thread and its SERIOUS?!? Cary Bates?

Bates might be better suited for the Mini-Squadron of Super-Heroes. If he comes onboard, he needs to be teamed with a Dave Cockrum circa 1970s-level artist.

I'll defend Johns' ACTION arc as being just as much about the Legion as it was about Supes. The whole purpose of it was to re-establish Supes into LSH continuity and re-establish his ties with the team.

I was always against the re-intro of Superman into the LSH mythos, wanting the team to stand on its own. After the ACTIOn arc, I'm sold. Tie it into the Superman mythos as it always was meant to be. Both franchises are the better for it.

I'd prefer that we not put creators on the spot. If he wants to comment then that's fine, but let's refrain from calling him out on it.

Agree on all three of these comments 100%.

I think defend Shooter and Manapul's LSH over Johns'. I don't know exactly how to explain, but Action Legion is more about Superman and less about the LSH. And that bugs me. Brainy's portrait in particular seems very off-character.
Johns' does the same in GL, which seems to be more about Hal Jordan and his companions than GLC as a whole. Yes, he brought the concept back, but Dave Gibbons handled it better than Johns' as a team concept.
And Superman-Prime is a boring character.

I 100% agree that Super-Prime sucks colossal Earthquake beast ass.

I can't complain about John's Action Legion. There's too many people and relationships and history that I care too much about (superdork!) to have any problem with the concepts. Superman with fond memories of his youthful adventures? Who-hooo! Dawnstar? Karate Kid? Sensor Girl? I'm sold. I'm just not sure that it's the Legion that would be most successful, or least confusing.

so far it doesn't look like johns stuck his legion to nostalgia. i think the action comics arc took what good there was in the levitz legion and improved it with a modern sci-fi feel. i felt like reading something new, not something old. and it didn't feel like it was a superman-centric story, especially considering it was published in action comics.
anyway, i hate so much 3boot that i'd like best the legion series to end for good instead of continuing the way it is now. and i'm not blaming shooter's writing, which i like. but the characters are too far from me.

Very few complaints about John's Legion either. Its not perfect and there are some minor thinks I don't love, but hey, no era in Legion history has ever been 100% perfet to me, including Levitz and the Shooter Silver Age, which come closest (for me).

I don't feel the same about the threeboot unfortunately. That being said, shady corporate politics leave a bad taste in my mouth always.

What people here need to realize is that in order for a comic book to be successful, it has to have a hook other than the creative team. If people are only reading the Legion to see what Jim Shooter is doing with it, well, what happens when the day comes when he's not writing it anymore? (And I mean that in the sense that all runs eventually come to an end, not in reference to any current rumors). That's really short term thinking.

People originally bought the three-boot for Waid and Kitson. People are buying it now for Shooter. If a less talented team gets its hands on it, people are less likely to buy it. In order for a franchise to be healthy, it has to feature characters that people want to read about regardless of the creative team. The Action Comics Legion sold 55,000 copies on average, whereas the current Legion sells about 30,000. If DC is planning to choose one over the other, can anyone blame them if they choose the one which sold the best?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Bates to return to the Legion...even though it was DC's top seller when he wrote it.

#1. He didn't particularly like writing it because it had such a large cast.

#2. The Bates Cockrum Legion was pretty much Cockrum's baby. At least according to Cary.


That said...it's pretty cool that Cary Bates is coming back to comics. When Cary was cut loose from the strict editorial constraints of Superman he was a pretty creative writer and extremely under-rated in the characterization department....although I don't think he ever particularly sought to be cut loose from those constraints.


All that said...the Legion was DC's top selling book when he wrote it and you never know for sure what DC is up too, except that they are definitely trying to fix the Legion now...so he just might be coming back.


And BTW...if anyone could come up with a story that fixes every continuity error in the Legion...it'd be Cary Bates. He's extremely inventive.


IIRC, he had a proposal to completely revamp Superman without rebooting the character...I believe Alan Moore and George Perez were going to be part of the creative team at the time he made his proposal, but then Alan Moore started to have issues with DC and their desire to label his books for mature audiences and DC also elected to go with Byrne and his name.


As I am sure anyone that has read Moore's Superman would agree...that was definitely our loss.

Well said...


IF Jim Shooter couldn't sell the Supermanless Legion...I don't think anyone can. And the interest was there when he took over the title..but it didn't hold the audience in signifigant numbers...

The same problesm Giffen, Waid, Simone, DNA and every Post Crisis Legion creator have had...


The same problem Waid and Kitson were having...which was only staved off by adding Supergirl to the title.


Those folks aren't bad writers...that's not why the PC Legions have failed...they've failed becuase conceptually they were more or less an X-Men Ripoff once Superman is removed from the concept. And that's about the interest level they generated to the greater comics buying audience.


And the Action Legion sales figures...while not overwhelming in and of themselves(unless compared to sales of the Post Crisis Legions), the way they held their audience was incredible given the current trends of comics...they were even surprising for a Geoff Johns Title...

And that's the Legion does at it's best...it holds it audience, for years at a time.

Also, Bates' style is not one that holds up well over time. Even by the early 80s, his style seemed a bit long in the tooth.

I cannot see any significant numbers of Bates fans still lingering. He may have been okay in the day but he has not produced a body of work over time that has withstood the test of time.

I agree with Kayak and Cobie.

To say Johns has solely been taking a nostalgia approach is simply untrue. Whoever said that either did not read the Action arc, or read it with the heavy-bias swittch turned up to its highest setting.

I never said nostalgia. In fact, he has made many changes to the characters (Brainy is the most obvious example). However, it is a Superman history, not a Legion-centric one. Which is fine for Action Comics.
But I really don't want to see a Superman & The Legion of Super Heroes book because I am sure it will be another spotlight for Superman and not for LSH.
The fact that Action Comics sells above LSh has less to do with LSH and way more for being a Johns/Frank book or Superman (which has been outselling LSH for years). This is not a reasonable motive for booting Shooter.
I also believe that good characters written by lousy teams (like Batman by Chuch Dixon or JLA written by Dan Jurgens) are usually lousy. It's the mix of good properties AND good teams that make it work. Or does anyone think that LSH was readable during McCraw's tenure?
For instance, Peter Milligan's Infinity Inc was a great concept for a great writing but had really miserable art. I can't understand what gives to DC for choosing such a lousy art team for a book more likely to attract mature readers.

One thing that gets overlooked a lot in discussions about Legion continuity:

Superboy left the Legion in 1980. After that, he only appeared once in a blue moon. I know for a fact ('cuz Paul Levitz printed it in DC Sampler way back when) that when Levitz and Giffen took over the book, its sales jumped by 50,000 copies. And yes, I know that Superboy was in the Great Darkness Saga, but that's not why people bought it. They essentially produced a Legion series that didn't have Superboy in every issue, and they did just fine without him.

The reason why the Legion ceased to be a best-seller at DC had to do with distribution problems, not necessarily due to the content of the book. When DC pulled both the Legion and the New Teen Titans from the newsstands, at a time when newsstand sales were dominant, in favor of reprints, that was when they cut the throats of both books. A year later, they did the same thing with Batman and the Outsiders, and it went from being DC's third best-selling book to cancelled in just over two years. The readership for all of those titles were split in two at a point in time when the direct sales marketplace was still in its infancy, and the half that bought the books on the newsstands wasn't enough to keep the reprints going. That left the direct sales versions with sales figures which were minus all of the people who couldn't buy the direct sales books. It wasn't until 2003 that Titans and Outsiders became hits again.

There is a tendency on the Internet to oversimplify things. People point to Crisis as the reason why the Legion became a mess. Wrong. Superboy wasn't in the book anymore anyway, so what difference did his absence make? Its sales were hurting because its distribution was effectively cut in half, and people also like to gloss over the fact that Paul Levitz kept writing the book until 1989, four years after Crisis on Infinite Earths and three years after the Byrne Superman reboot. Folks, those stories still count. Geoff Johns isn't ignoring them. Just because we haven't seen Tellus yet doesn't mean that he didn't join the group along with Polar Boy and Sensor Girl, who we have seen. We didn't see the White Witch until DCU #0, and we haven't seen Chameleon Boy at all. It'll take time to get around to everyone. Remember, Quislet went back to his own dimension and Magnetic Kid died in the Magic Wars. That only leaves Tellus unaccounted for, and he could have died, quit, or just gone home for all we know. His absence does not mean that all of the Levitz stories post-pocket universe did not happen.

You can't just throw out every Legion story written from 1986-89 because it's easier to ignore them. Given Johns love of continuity, and his showing of the Time Trapper making reference to the pocket universe in Action Comics, he's just gonna say that all the twists and turns were his doing. That does not negate every Legion story published from 1986-89. It doesn't even come close to negating them.

I dont know that I agree with you there. Bates was pretty notorious for making mistakes with Legion history, so I don't want him handed the keys to the 31st century again. For example, during his run, he had Matter Eater Lad eat an energy beam, and he said Garth and Mekt were twins and Ayla was their younger sister. I know we should blame the editor for not catching these kinds of gaffes, but if the writer doesn't know it to begin with I'd say we have a problem.

I was a fan of Cary's Flash and I really enjoyed Captain Atom, but I don't need him to visit the future again any time soon.

The formula seems simple to me. Geoff John's Action Legion arc was successful because:
1) It included the Superman character/mythos
2) It didn't try to rewrite anything, instead it told an adventure based on a foundation of pre-written characters, and added to it.
3) It upheld the Legion's fundamental theme of youthful optimism.

Waid's Legion violated all three points above, and bombed, showing life only when Supergirl was first injected. TMK also violated said points to a certain extent, and it didn't sell well, either. DnA did better on the second two points, but was missing the link to Superman (probably thru no fault of their own). Currently, Bedard and Shooter have improved on the current run but are still hampered (IMO) by straightening out the Waid revisionism. Neither have had enough time to make their mark with truly original Legion stories of their own. I totally expect Mr. Shooter can sell many Legion issues, if given the opportunity. From the start, I wish he had been asked to begin his 3rd Legion run from the Lightning Saga point, not Waid's ruins. I've been a little surprised he was so enthusiastic about what Waid had given him to work with.

That is true. Johns has merely applied his usual formula: take something classic and add a new twist to it; it worked on JSA, it worked on teen Titans... It just feels "right"... Even if i don't agree with all he's done in Action

Again, I don't see Action Comics doubling sales for the presence of LSH. So we can't say it was "successful" as a product for any of the reasons above. Youthful Optimism is one of those arguments TMK haters used to say back in the days. I never read Levitz run as "youthful" much less as "optimistic". So, I am sorry to say, but it's not an argument that holds at all. As Glen perfectly pointed out, much of what is taken for granted for the reasons LSH failed were nothing else than bad BUSINESS choices (wrong distribution, wrong team, wrong editors).

TMK was VERY successful, considering it was a Deluxe Format book, set completely outside chronology and featuring extremely intricate artwork with sometimes not a single punch inside. Oh, and lots and lots of dialogue and extra written material. Sales proved that. Sales only dropped significantly when Keith left the book. And that was due to very, very, very poor storytelling and rotating artists that lacked Jason Pierson or Stuart Immonen's classy style.

The reason that most Legion fans who don't like the 3boot don't like it is because the characterisation and history is not true to the past.

Karate Kid was always in love with Jeckie and now he's shafting Light Lass. No way! Star Boy black? No way he's the bearded guy who loves Dream Girl.

The same was true of the reboot. Changing characters and origins just pi**es people off and even the best writers can't recover from that level of disillusion.

The Legion needs to be the classic Legion to regain the true fans rather than the kids who will read for two years and then move on. The sales of Action have shown that. Whether it is Geoff Johns or Jim Shooter, I honestly don't care as long as it is well written and 'true' to the past. Mr Manapul should be able to work with either, surely.

Going back to the Pre-Direct sales Market.

The Legion thrived in the 60's while the X-Men got cancelled.

The Legion thrived in the 70's while the Teen Titans got cancelled.

During DC's Implosion in 1978, 31 DC titles were cancelled that year,But Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes continued to sell well.

It still sold well when Gerry Conway and Joe Staton did the title and The Legion took over the book completely.

I can almost guarantee if you were to ask Jim Shooter,Paul Levitz,Kieth Giffen,Tom & Mary and Mark Waid if Superboy/Superman was an important part of the Legion they would all say yes.

It's easy for me to see that a Legion without Kal-El has half of it's concept missing,For he was the foundation on which they were built upon.

That said do I wan't him in every issue (No), But
I do wan't the Legion back that had a history with him (Yes).

I remember when I first read the Pocket Universe story,It was like a slap in the face that everything I ever knew about the Legion and their 30 year history was a lie.

as much as i don't want to agree with you there i have to

the changes piss me off cause a lot of them just don't have any build up

people might be happier with changes if we got more background with them other then just taking things on faith that brin and jacike are soul mates

think about it years ago we got see the relationships slowly build and we got invested in them,in the threeboot we got none of that the closest we got to that is with element lad and trip and that one sucked we saw one date then bamn nothing but them holding hands in the background

(side note one of my biggest pet peeves in the threeboot is when brainiac 5 and super girl finally got to meet one another. that was the one thing i was look fowarded to when she did join the team, and i was so mad that not only did he not crush on her he was quite the asshole.the again this new supergirl is almost retarded )

It's the reason I didn't like Smallville, as much as I wanted to. I don't want to see Pete Ross as African-American and Lana Lang as Asian-American. I'm not descriminating against anyone here, they just aren't who I remember in all my years of reading Superman comics. If the creators of Smallville wanted to introduce new characters with ethnic diversity to the Smallville tapestry, go right ahead! Just don't mess with my continuity!!

I'd wager that any money, may it be charged with long years of "fannish devotion", or may it come from a brand-new pocket, is equally welcome to DC. Therefore, ideally, the Legion needs to gain the "kids", as you're putting it, on top of the "true fans" (I'd love to rephrase that expression as "people who have been reading since long before the first reboot"). I'm also pretty sure that new readers won't jump ship after a short amount of time for the reason that they're unable to work up any true devotion for a "bastardized" (i.e. rebooted) product which lacks the inherently "rightful" essence of the original Legion - a Legion they probably wouldn't "get" either, being fickle "kids" and not true, grizzeled devotees to the Legion mythos . As you say, the quality of the writing factors in prominently, as well. I'd really love it if people would primarily judge according to this factor, no matter which version of the Legion they're dealing with.

I disagree with the original Legion automatically being the cure-all for what ails the LoSH. It's only natural that the longtime readership which favours this version of the Legion decreases over the course of time, just like that of the other boots - due to change of interests, growing out of comics, dying in freak lawnmower accidents, or whatever else the reasons might be. But to new potential readers it means zilch that the original Legion is the original Legion, dripping history from its every pore. Since you can't work them from a nostalgia angle you have to hook them on the strength of the writing - and I'm really of the opinion that Legion sales do need these readers, as well.

"new readers"

I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.

All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.

oh there was so much wrong with smalville it hurts to think about it

kinda pissed they never had the legion in it

You don't have to re-invent a series to get new readers. X-Men have been published steadily since 1975. Probably half of its readership wasn't even alive then.

A good story an art team will create enough buzz to bring in new readers. That's how Legion rebounded in the 70s with Cockrum and in the 80s with Levitz/Giffen.

Shooter is doing an okay job. His characterization is great, but there isn't much story to sink your teeth into.

It's not that I think Geoff Johns is always brillaint, but more often than not -- he delivers. I'd like to see him continue writing the Legion from Action (though some of the costume Gary Frank designed need rebooted).

The story in Action Comics is a Legion for Superman fans, not a Legion for Legion fans. For this reason, and those you say, its sales can't be compared to the threeboot Legion, either under Waid/Kitson or under Shooter/Manuapul.

I agree with Jorge. DC could care less at this point about new readers, in the sense of those that have never picked up a comic before or at least a DC comic before. Their strategy for the past few years has been to try to get the current "hardcore DC fanbase" to feel they need to pick up as many titles in their line as possible. The Legion hasn't benefited from the current crossover/event craze, being isolated in the 31st century. But by connecting them to Superman and sticking Superboy-Prime in the series, they can make the case that the Legion is an important chapter in their ongoing 150-part crossover or whatever. As a marketing strategy it makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.

I think you are partially mistaken. LSH was actively involved in the latest crossover (even by becoming Supergirl and LSH). DCU#0 is also a proof DC wants to grab new readers. As for how successful they will be, that's something else.
New comic book readers? That's also a problem that runs way above mere "reboots". So, in that case, you are correct: DC is trying to milk current readers into trying LSH. And even though Shooter and Manapul do a better LSH than Johns has shown me so far, it is stupid not to consider that for CURRENT LSH newbies, Johns is way more glamourous and attractive than Shooter.

I wouldn't say that LSH was "actively involved" in the latest crossover. It's true that they've been trying the strategy of marketing the LSH as important to the DCU for awhile, going back to Mark Waid's original claim that the current series was anticipating Infinite Crisis a year ahead of time. And then Supergirl showing up for awhile, and Booster Gold making a brief appearance. Still... while the event comics have had an effect on the LSH, it would be a stretch to say that they've had much of an impact on events in the mainstream DCU, at least up until the introduction of the Johns Legion.

And, as I understand it, DCU #0 was more of an afterthought... an attempt to link Countdown to Final Crisis to Final Crisis itself, than a serious attempt to market to new readers. And if it was meant as an attempt, it apparently was such a piss poor attempt that it's hard to take seriously as such. I could quote the numerous reveiws of how inaccessible it was, but I think we've got a whole thread full of them somewhere.

Well he did operate under some heavy handed Editors on most of his assignments...but IMO, he was never particularly exiciting at dialogue.

But I'd say that's the shortcoming of Levitz as well...


I actually think Tony Bedard may have been the best dialogue guy to ever work on the book.


Geoff Johns is hanging around...


Which gives him a lot in common with the Post Crisis Legions.


Seriously though, he was a never a star, except for maybe a brief period during his Legion run.


To tell you the truth...he's extremely similar to Paul Levitz. He was viewd more or less as a DC Staff Writer or something...and the only time his name stood out was when when he was working on the Legion.

Oh I'm not saying Cary is a master of Legion Continuity, like I said, he wasn't really a fan of the book. What I'm saying is that he's the guy that could come up with a working and inventive concept that could fix the continuity errors in the Legion if he was presented with that problem.


IOW, he'd probably have to be told what needed to be fixed, before he could fix it. But he does have that kind of creative mind...that comes up with good explanations.


I never read his Flash...and while I am a huge fan of the era of the Legion he wrote...it has about 90% to do with Dave Cockrum and about 10% to do with Cary Bates.

At the same time...I don't feel his Legion run was a true indicator of his writing ability, as Murray Boltinoff was just as heavy handed and creatively constraining for him as he was for Shooter.


His Captain Atom work is what I rate as his best work as a writer IMO.

I do know the Johns is a Cary Bates fan though...and the Johns...he has some pull at DC right now.

And isn't Bates the guy that created Superboy Prime in the first place? I can't remember if was Bates or Maggin that created him...

Moot point I guess since Superboy Prime is way different now than he was at the time of his creation.

Ah well, that's a shame if that's the case, then. I admit I have no clue about the workings of the comic book industry. Trying to gain fresh readers in place of the declining number of established ones simply sounded logical - as well as potentially doable - from my perspective, since I've been that obviously near-mystical animal called "new reader" not so long ago.

Without having any sales figures handy, I recall that sales were not that great after the honeymoon period with TMK. Sales consistently dipped even before Giffen jumped. It eventually got to the point where they didn't even match the "old, tired end" of the Levitz run. While I'm not a TMK "hater" (I don't really "hate" anything) the truth is that Giffen's monster experiment on the Legion ran out of gas - he constantly drew on the wealth of the Legion foundation, but added little, all the while maiming, disfiguring and killing favorite characters. The TMK Legion was unrecognizable from what previously existed, and that cost the title readers as much as any 'Deluxe Format' or other circumstances may have. That is completely why even the DC PTB eventually realized they needed to end the debacle while some remnants of a core readership remained. If sales were so great, that version would still be with us.

John's Action Legion respects and accentuates what has been a winning formula in the past. I don't believe sales have to double in Action for it to be deemed a success. If 5-10k LSHers crossover to pick up Action, and the reverse becomes true, then everyone would be happy.

Maybe an analogy to sports entertainment shows the true dilemma of the Legion:

Most teams suffer some periods without success. This can have many reasons, but mostly, the first man to go is the coach (no matter if it's football, basketball or whatever sport out there like handball ).

In comics, the coach mostly is the writer, but there is also a kind of larger coach which is simply a kind of "direction" given by the powers that be.

If you let the creative teams follow this direction for a considerable time, like for example Johns on Green Lantern or JSA or Bendis (later Brubaker) on Daredevil or Willingham on Fables, the book can flourish. The Legion did in the 80s when Levitz was left alone for a long time.

But if success is lacking, often the "direction" of the book is sacrificed to some lame event like a major crossover or an unneccessary death of a major character, whatever.

The Legion suffered thrugh this for 20 years.

They decided to go adult with 5YL, got cold feet and changed direction again to do Legion on the Run, which had to fail cause all the fans who might have liked it were gone due to 5YL, and most of those who liked 5YL were appalled by LotR (wow! Same initials as Lord of the Rings, at least!)

So they changed old guys in spandex into young guys in spandex, another new direction, they changed into slightly more adult and a little gritty again with DnA, then again into ... I don't know what direction WaK was supposed to be, but in my book it totally tanked.

It's all about direction - the Legion no longer has a creative "Über-ich" any longer, and it suffered, like so many other books.

Can a new direction (again) have a chance after all this? I hope so, but fear that not many people trust DC far enough as if they would actually leave the Legion and Johns (and his followers) alone for, say, a decade...

Anybody catch this podcast here? Mark Waid talks about Jim Shooter's Legion run:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=157442

His comments start at the 54:40 min mark.

Data on sales was reproduced in a post here . As you can see, when Keith left the title, it was still selling a bit above Levitz. And that was after the slump of the 90s.
As for unrecognizable, I beg to differ. The reboots are the ones who are unrecognizable - being a bunch of stories that carried nothing but colorful characters that once were part of a book called LSH. It's like comparing the original villain Ambush Bug to current Ambush Bug: same clothes but oh, what a difference.
TMK had the original team, the original story, the original background except it was set in a more mature vein (and had to deal with retcons forced upon them). If that is your explanation for why LSH was rebooted, you should check sales AFTER Keith left. And Legion on The Run was all about "youthful optimism"...

For once, we should stop blaming sales for what is simply an opinion on what was "wrong" with v4., and more what came AFTER TMK for End of An Era. You don't like v4? Fine, but don't blame sales for that.

Can't seem to find it. What is it about?

It dosn't sound good for Shooter's future on the book, that's for sure. Mark Waid unintentionally makes it sound like Shooter is already gone and so is the 3boot...he doesn't outright say it, but he basically sounds like it's a done deal that both Shooter and the 3 boot are out of the picture.

He's not going to come out and say what he knows...but he definitely sounds like he knows something. And he probably does since he's pretty wired into both Shooter and Johns.

Waid says "I sure wish they weren't about to bury that (the 3boot) over too...paving that over"... He said with L3W and a fan base favoring a 70's Legion he's not sure there is room for the other two versions.

He also says "I think Shooter did a great job...it's been a delight to read." Waid really appears to be speaking past tense.

But he ends with "Hopefully I'll be proven wrong" (about DC not needing 3 versions of Legion around).

As a fan who appreciates things about each version of the team (even though my heart lies with the preboot), all I can say is "Amen, brother!"


LLLs - all of 'em!!

This should seriously become the new catchphrase for Legion fans.

Thanks guys. I started listening to the show but Mark Waid got on my nerves after 3 minutes LOL

And the host too hehe

This thread has moved a long way from Jim Shooter but

a question

What in the opinion of everyone would DC need to do to attract new readers (especially to the Legion?)

The animated series seemed the most obvious way in and that's been ditched. A film looks unlikely this century, so any ideas?

All I know is what attracted me to the Legion way back in 1973 was Superboy(Kal-El)Mixed with Dave Cockrum's cool costumes on the rest of the characters that I didn't know from adam.

Also I have a non-comicbook friend who loved the Justice League show,so I recommended the Legion series,he went out and got the DVD's and was not to keen on it,saying it was a kiddie show,I defended it of course, but I still could not change his opinion.

So here's what I think would draw in new reader's.

A hook (as in Kal-El from time to time)

Cool looking character's (See Dave Cockrum)

Interesting Villian's (See Jim Shooter)

A writer who understands the concept (See Paul Levitz)

I think most of the new readers nowaday's would already be comic fan's so go after them,but don't go trying to turn the Legion into something that it's not like the X-Men,make it the best Legion it can be,by using it's history,
combined with Great stories and Art.

Something else else like this

Legion of Super-Heroes #1

The Original Legion returns in their own series

Co-Written by (Paul Levitz and Geoff John's)

Art by (George Perez or Alan Davis or Chris Batista) or whoever's good and can commit to 12 issue's a year,with the Legion it may take 2 artist's to do the book correctly.

Cover's by (Alex Ross)

Edited by (Jim Shooter) Just Kidding.

I would be really radical on that, which is more it into more adult (yes, Vertigo) direction with the classic team, picking it up from somewhere around TMK, placing it closer to sci-fi territory than super hero. Being handled in sci-fi territory also allows more freedom and hotter writers. This one would be set outside DCU - or maybe in Earth X, whatever.

The current team needed more exposure (which L3W does), but I would keep it with Shooter and Manapul for a long time and see if it can stick after the hype. This could still be the "entrance" to the LSH world and this one would be firmly attached to DCU. It can even have Superman for all I care.

However, what is probably going to be happening is what I mentioned before: classic retconned LSH returns, with Geoff Johns somehow writing it (maybe with George Pérez?), Shooter is ditched and things move on from there.

And, no, I don't believe LSH will ever again be DC's top seller. LSH concept is nowhere near as novel as back then and there is clearly a move towards artist books and big events for the major characters. I don't see "offbeat" comic books getting there anymore (such as Teen Titans and LSH in the 80s). Not now, I mean.

Radical Ricardo, I like your approach - I would probably buy both books.
IMHO a kind of Vertigo set up would be great with the Action Legion (- I mean they are kind of an "adult Legion"). Doesn't necessarily have to be dark & gritty...

But I suppose you're right about the probable outcome... and from DCs point of view you've already got a second book with LSH31.

On a sidenote:
I wonder what would happen if Johns were charged with boosting the 3boot?

I love the idea of a Vertigo book for mature readers. I would love to see a series of books for different reading groups:

- the LSHC31 for younger readers

- a teen book for teen readers like the 3boot

- and then a Vertigo for mature

the hook would have to be easily movable from one to the next. By having one team but three diferent age groups within it possibly so a Legion/Legionnaires kind of split but handled correctly.

This way we could have Shooter AND Johns both writing the Legion every month. Shame it isn't going to happen.

To be frank, the main idea would be that the Vertigo Legion would be set apart from DCU (or at least be considered as "off the main Universe), just like Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol.

By the way, I just read in one gulp Seven Soldiers and... well, there are LOTS of hints to Final Crisis. Morrison is unbelievably detailed in that sense (quite like Keith on v4 - lots and lots of hints since number one, and lots of unresolved matters).

I'd call the WaK Legion "the high-concept Legion". As in, "It's the Legion of Super-Heroes as the SCA/Vietnam protesters".

I don't have any desire to see a Vertigo Legion...I mean I'll buy it if they produce it, but I don't see that as being the Legion.

It's not why I ever read the Legion.

And I am not biased against Vertigo or Horror titles...in fact those are my favorite genre, but the Legion was my favorite comic ever with no dark overtones necessary.


The Legion was a book about fantasitcally powered kids, driven by the idealism of youth, that had all this fantastic technology...in this super advanced future a thousand years from now. Whatever their personal issues were..the Legion came first. And their idealism often read as them having their act together moreso than the UP and the adults of their time. And in many cases their idealism won the day in their world.

Why everyone wants to see them as a bunch of old beaten down guys in a beaten down world with as much 21st century "realism" interjected into the title as is humanly possible....is beyond me.

Why do people want to see that with the Legion? Turned up on it's head and turned entirely into something it never was.

Why not just read the abundant titles that already do that?

Doing a contemporary(of imitated) theme with the Legion is not original or innovative...it's only a completely different from what the Legion was before, and what made it appealing in the first place.

That's not unique to the modern audience...in fact it's like everything else published nowdays.

On top of all that...there was nothing particularly unique or innovative about that style in the 90's...every title in the industry was that way.


The only novelty was in doing it to the Legion...but that's not originality, and it makes the Legion seem like an imitation following the trends of the market...instead of what it was previously, which was a book with it's own unique feel, Universe and foundation.


That sort of direction for the book is what hurts it more than anything else...

That's turning a unique book(regardless of genre), into a genre book.

Zero desire to see that...why call it the Legion?

It's not.


If they do do it...I hope they use the W&K Legion and not the Action...

I don't see what a mature-reader Legion would have to be dark and gloomy. For once, I never saw TMK's as dark-and-gloomy. Rather, I saw it as COMPLEX under a distressing situation. And that's what I think when I think of a Vertigo Legion.
In fact, one of the things that made LSH stand out was always its complexity. It was never about "youthful optimism". I was introduced to LSH during Levitz run, so that's my parameter of LSH - and I guess most of people here, since he had the most successful LSH run in terms of sales.
TMK was never about novelty - had it been, it wouldn't be so discussed and so well-remembered. You are confounding mature complexity to "dark". Leave that to Chuck Dixon's Batman run. Or Dan Vado's JLI run. Or any Marvel X-title.
In fact, TMK was elected on the top 50 of the best comic book runs ever. Hadn't it been innovative, it wouldn't be there, right? I don't think I ever saw such a complex monthly title NOT placed as a mature-readers book dealing with superheroes before. Or ever again.
And again, Vertigo Legion would be about GREAT sci-fi under adult thematics. This is impossible with W&L Legion. This had to be done with an adult version of Legion.

If it's Vertigo it's going to be....


All the characters were middle aged and broekn down and Giffen was blowing up the Earth and the Moon...that's not exactly the basis for a feel good story there.


In terms of sales the Post Crisis version(top 40 at best) was not comparable to the Pre(top 20).

And in particular the latter half of his run required Superman crossovers with Byrne, revisiting that crossover, and bringing Giffen back, just to keep it in the top 40 or so.


By who? 35 posters at CBR? Giffen's home forum?

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's fans. I'm not even saying it isn't good for what it was...but what it was was not the Legion. I'm just saying it's not the Legion...it was Keith Giffen being different....doing it with the Legion name...he even said he wanted the Legion name to sell what he was doing.

Well we are probably both sci fi fans...I personally hope for a return to a Sci-Fi driven Legion, but you don't need to be a Vertigo book to do that...and the writers that can write a sci-fi driven book with a 20+ member cast without losing characterization etc...are few and far between.

In fact I'd say if that's what you want to do, Jim Shooter is your guy. But the sales decline...


And Johns version is being popularly received, plus it's selling consistently.

Mr. Ricardo, the Legion has been and will always be about youthful optimism. Take that away and you don't have the Legion, you have an imitation in Legion clothing. Propelling the Legion as adults into a dark future was an ill conceived idea, and although the TMK version produced some quality moments, it generally was a failure because the "mature complexity" of the characters is a nice way of saying the original characters were re-written - it was no longer the Legion we (many long time readers) came to know. If you want to take a mediocre title like Jonah Hex or Doom Patrol and catapult them into a totally different premise, that's understandable - but the DC PTB had a once top selling title in the Legion and for them to let one person hijack it with their personal "vision" turned out to be a disaster. Sadly, DC didn't learn from Giffen's debacle and gave a blank check to Waid as well. The result is a fractured reader base over various Legion characters sharing the same name.

The recent Geoff Johns Action stories with the Legion have been popular because he has reintroduced the core elements of the Legion to the title we haven't seen much of since DnA. I believe Mr. Shooter was on his way to do that with the current run, but has been handcuffed to some extent by having to straighten out some of the Waid quirks still remaining. The Legion Action issues are selling, however, and sales has been the overriding concern of DC Comics for decades. All the changes, retcons, reboots, etc. have been directly instigated by sales or lack thereof, like it or not.

Not to pile on Mr. Waid, but this was always a fundamental problem with the 3boot Legion. The original and post-ZH had kind of a mission, or at least a "mission statement"; a reason for being. The 3boot, as far as I can see, is together because they love the comic books of the 20th century and want to give the finger to the old folks. (I know its not a simple as that - it is a bit more nuanced)

Speaking for myself, I think that when reading the Johns Legion in Action, I saw a Legion that was fighting for a society they belevied in for themselves and others - in spite of the fact that the indigenous population was pretty much against them - versus a 3boot Legion that was counter-cultural because it was what _they_ wanted. The differences may be minutiae in the grand scheme, but I think it's what sets the versions apart, and ultimately why even Shooter wouldn't be able to really save the book, unless he were to have 2 years+ to write it without interference.

My $.02.

Sorry, but ZH Legion had nothing but a name-change and new costumes, sans Superman (a nod to our Pre-Crisis fans) and sans everything else (a nod to our Post-Crisis fans). Not only it was a poor excuse to wipe LSH history, but it couldn't stand on its own: we had multiple writers, Legion Lost, The Legion... All trying to solve the huge mess that this version of LSH was from the beginning.
3boot came, in my opinion, from a more modern concept: youth would gather as a community, because telecom would be spread out and hero teams would be media darlings. You can't control your product (the LSH itself) anymore. Which is a fine idea, unless:

1) The ultimate enemies were... adults? This makes no sense today and will make less sense in the future. Maybe for Mark Waid the 60s are still hip...
2) If any "youthster" is potentially a Legionnaire, who gave who the rights to it? Chaos was supposed to reign from the very beginning of the concept. It would be dead in a month.
3) Such concept also lacks a long term direction. If adults are the enemy, and that's pretty much what seemed to be the core idea, I am fighting to free the world from bad guys for what? It lacks coherence.

It is no wonder that Shooter deliberately ignored this concept and moved it forward towards a more political game, in which THIS group of heroes are trying to gain recognition and legitimacy. THIS makes much more sense.

How did people see so much with Johns??? What I saw was some similar characters from Pre-Crisis fighting as sidekicks to Superman. And this is also true on The Lightning Saga, in which some Legionnaires appear and... not much is done by them. Or in Countdown, where we find out that Karate Kid... knows fighting and is sick. And Una has a crush on him.

People: what you think is a team with purpose is just because we SUPPOSE it is the same LSH we saw back then. But so far, nothing has been said and definitely nothing has been revealed about them to make us know what the f*** is this version of LSH. People are excited? Sure. Johns is a good teaser? You bet. But it is not a LSH story yet. So far, Shooter is still years ahead with his LSH, at least in terms of characterization and storytelling.

Ricardo,
I think we're mostly on the same page about our expectations of what the Legion should/could/would be...

one thing in defense of Johns:
True, while his stuff with the Legion so far has been mostly teasing, people are expecting something like a "high concept" legion with an optmistic mission statement based on what he did with JSA and the GL/Sinestro Corps.

And I think he could deliver...

I just don't think the Adult Action Legion would be the right vehicle...

BTW, have there been any assertions IF Shooter really jumped the ship? Any more rumors? kidflash2fan?

I disagree that Vertigo = gloomy. Wonderful titles like "Sandman" & "Y: The Last Man" in the past & currently "Fables" are not all dark & gloomy. There are light, moments in those books as much as there was/is conflict. If there was no conflict at all then what would serve as the contrast for good? Why would there be a need for super-HEROES doing good if there weren't any super-VILLAINS?

Stories in the past such as "The Great Darkness Saga" & "LSH vs LSV" aren't dark? A horde of super-powered Daxamites on a Darkseid-controlled killing spree all over the universe isn't gloomy? The LSH defeating the LSV with the end-product being Karate Kid's barbecued corpse & Nemesis Kid's broken neck wasn't dark & gloomy?

Also, idealism doesn't need to be young. The Legion grew up, married, had sex, had kids. The noble ideals & principles they behind forming & being part of the LSH in the first place was there even when they grew up. Even Levitz' LSH grew up from the days when they were in that inverted rocket clubhouse to those in their Computo-butlered headquarters.

The TMK ex-Legionnaires didn't need to re-form. Rokk didn't need to be a Legionnaire again after losing his magnetic powers & a baby on the way...Reep was already living a comfy life as head of a Brande Industries in the black...Ayla was having the time of her naked life on the farm...but they turned their back on that because the ideal of what it was to be a Legionnaire, to fight for what was right, burned brightly inside of them. It would've been so easy to keep the status quo...to lead an uneventful life, but they chose to risk their lives for the safety of a universe that had kicked them out of their HQ and made them outlaws.

That's why TMK for me exemplified the idealism behind the LSH...moreso than the Adventure- or Levitz era stories. So the color palette was more on the black or the universe faced an economic collapse. Real idealism...true idealism, doesn't need a sunlight-drenched, happy ending to shine through.

Let's call a spade a spade.

The Johns-penned Action-Legion are popular because it's by Geoff Johns, not merely because he brought in such elements. I'd wager they brought him onboard because they needed the Legion book to sell, sell, sell. He brings his star power to the book to the point that non-LSH readers are picking up the book because it's being written by him. He's not writing a bad story at all, mind you.

Sales has always been an overriding concern of DC for decades because it happens to be a business. It doesn't produce comics for charity but for profit.

Let me share my conspiracy theory though: When the launched the WaK Legion, they had high hopes...which came crashing down. It's the 50th anniversary of comicdom's first super-team and you have a so-so title. WaK's off the book..who do you get to replace them? Johns' L3W story's not yet done, you get limited arcs by newly-acquired talent like Bedard...but that's just a stop-gap. What to do? "Stunt cast" Shooter as the new writer. He brings the star power and roots to a book or set of characters that will soon be handled by big guns Johns & Perez. In comics, bad publicity is still good publicity after all.

In light of that, for me, I'm worried more about what happens to LSH once "Final Crisis" is done, particularly who'll be the creative team left standing when all the dust clears...Shooter? Johns??? Who?

I think the Geoff Johns Action Legion stories were popular not so much because of the writer's star power, but because they were good stories. In particular, the Earth Man saga drew upon previous Legion established elements (the founders recruiting Superboy/man, the Subs, the Rejects, Gim and Yera, etc.) and positively accentuated them into an entertaining product. This ADDS to the Legion mythos. Why this is not done more often instead of attempts to re-write the wealth of Legion tradition and foundation escapes me, especially after the disastrous results in those cases.

As far as who the creative team will be after Final Crisis, I think we're all worried what will happen. Geoff Johns would be a great writer for the Legion full time, but I hope the current Shooter/Manipul creative team gets the nod. They have done a great job so far and would accomplish a lot in a two-three year run. Hopefully it won't be mop-up duty of splattered Legionnaires - e.g. re-re-reboot?

You are a genius. I can't agree more with you!
Johns now draws readers simply by being a writer in that book. Or why would anyone buy a Booster Gold book these days (I would, but for missing JLI...)?

I just don't think DC would bring Shooter on if they had known about L3W. In my opinion, this came out of nothing, probably after Shooter's deal, on the fact that both Johns and Pérez wanted a shot at that. For me, this was so rushed that Pérez was taken of B&B assignment before it even concluded.

To be true, i guess Perez planned his Legion stint for a long time. In the wonderful Hardcover book "Storyteller", which covers Perez' whole career til BatB, he already hints very strongly to the possibility that after BatB, his next project would be Legion stuff. So I guess at least in his case it's not actually rushed, but the right project at the right time - of course you can argue that Perez didn't hint as to which Legion version he would be doing, but I think it's quite certain that DC had him in the "Legion bullpen" for at least a year...

IIRC Perez was supposed to be the artist when Levitz came back to the book in 1981, that's why Perez was doing the covers at that time, and it was a book he wanted to do from what I remember. Keep in mind...Perez cites Curt Swan as his main influence, and mentiones his Legion work from the Adventure era often, and you can see the similarities in the cleanness of the styles.

I think I read in an interview a long time ago that as soon as Wolfman found out Perez was coming to DC he was all over Perez for the Titans relaunch.


So really Perez is about 30 years overdue for his Legion stint.

I am not 100% certain he was going to do the Legion, I just seem to remember Wolfman mentioning it in an interview...and Perez was doing the covers.

In his Newsarama interview, he says he has always wanted to draw the LSH, but he never had the chance and NOW, with L3W, he had the opportunity. So, again, he wanted, but now, with Johns, he got it.

Maybe I'm weird.

I like (or want) superhero books where the main characters don't think of themselves as superheroes first. The X-Men movies made me realize this. I wanted to see an X-Men team that saw themselves more as activists for the mutant cause than superheroes. Sometimes they have seemed that way, but certainly not consistently.

And I realized later, once the Legion became my favorite superheroes, that I wanted to see a Legion who weren't in it just to be heroes. A Legion who were in it for some social, cultural or political reason, whose actions led to them being seen as heroes.

I realize my desires could be interpreted as "pretentious superheroes" - that is, superhero comics claiming to be about something else. I still wouldn't think of them as non-superhero books, certainly. Just... different.

Waid's idea was a starting point, but it did have a problem. The same problem he had with almost every idea in his run: he threw it in the air and didn't develop it well (or at all).

This is why I like the WaK Legion. I'm often attracted to a comic for its ideas rather than their execution. Just because an idea comes off poorly doesn't mean it couldn't work well some other time. In my conception of an ideal Legion, Waid's concepts play a prominent role.

In all the discussions about Shooter v Johns, the on-going artist has been ignored to some extent.

I have taken it that Perez is ONLY doing L3W so FJM is not affected by any upheaval - unless he wants to be.

We don't know that. It's not unlikely that George could become a co-plotter/artist on a future Superman & LSH book (which is what I bet it will happen to LSH).

Well, I disagree to a point. The ZH Legion brought me to the Legion and its concept and I consider it "my" Legion. I've gone back and bought lots of pre-ZH issues and I like them very much, but I just don't have the connection to those characters like you old timers.

Indeed, looking back at some of the Shooter issues (and some of his subsequent work) makes me wonder if the hype at his return was little more than nostalgia. I mean, I think he's doing a decent job, but to read some of the stuff here, you'd think he was the second coming of Christ or something...

Absolutely agreed.

For me, anyway, it has to do with where I am in comics. I had not picked up a comic in 10 years until a few issues into the 3boot, as I wanted to see what had become of my post-ZH Legion characters. I ended up buying all the rest of the Legionnaries and LSH run, LW, LL, and The Legion and found myself a bit down after reading the empty-tank of the late Peyer/McCraw run and the jolt of energy of DnA, only to have that peter out until Simone stepped in to close it out and it started all over again. So changing creative teams is nothing new on Legion, that is for sure.

I also had no idea who Johns was until I picked up the Action issues. So as someone with little connection to the "classic" Legion, the story was written with (IMO) such good characterization (a HUGE part of which was because of the artwork) that I bonded with those characters to a degree which I was not expecting. Was the plot the best ever? Not in a million years. But the package as a whole felt right to me, and I am looking forward to seeing more. And it's not a feeling I get when I read the current Legion. I would say that the first arc of the 3Boot had that feeling because it was so new, but now... not so much.

The main reason Shooter is widely respected among Legion fans is because of everything he created...not necessarily the stories themselves(although he wrote what IMO are some all time classic comic stories).


Basically as a 14 year in his first writing assignment he created:

Karate Kid
Princess Projectra
Nemesis Kid
Ferro Lad.

And then he really got started...in the span of the next 15 issues or so he created:

The Dominators
The Khunds
The Dark Circle
The Controllers...

And mixing in just about every memorable Legion Villian along the way, like:


Mordru
The Fatal Five(this means the Emerald Empress and the Emerald Eye of Erkon, Validus, The Persuader etc.)
The Sun Eater
Universo
Dr Regulus


And then threw in a couple more Legionaires like:

Shadow Lass
Chemical King

As well as some supporting characters like:

Rond Vidar
The Wanderers


And I didn't even scratch the surface...that's just off the top of my head. He created all that as as 14-15 year old in the span of about 20 issues. And what he created is about 8 times as much as any other creator outside of Jerry Siegel...in all those years since.

Everybody since has just been reintroducing Shooter's characters and most of his Villians have been retconned into major villians of the DCU.


And somewhere in there he found time to create the Parasite for the Superman Rogue's gallery as well.

Not too bad for 15 year old...

Not only that, but he is one of the very few writers who understands storytelling like the palm of his hand. JG Jones said on Newsarama today:
'Nuff said!

JS was originally engaged for a sixteen month story arc. That should have taken him up to March 2009.

How's this for a theory....

L3W was originally 8 issues, to run to March 2009 but has been shortened to finish it during 2008 as part of the Legion anniversary.

Sooo.... Shooter goes three months early and Johns has to squeeze 8 months into 5.

Well, nostalgia is a fine reason for holding him in esteem and pulling eyeballs into a book. My point is that he needs to deliver now. Shooter is in a bad spot because he was left with a bunch of plot threads. Unfortunately, he is taking too long to resolve those, IMO. So I'm not completely sold on his storytelling abilities.

Thanks for jogging my memory. I remember when Dark Dominion came out and buying the first issue, as the concept sounded good, and I remember folks in the industry making a big deal about it being a Shooter project. (I still have it somewhere in my boxes)

I never bought the rest of the series. I dunno, maybe he's just not my cuppa joe.

Well he wrote probably my favorite story ever...but that's not the only reason why I like him.

I like him because he is the guy that isn't nostalgic. He's the guy that creates the new stuff...it's every one else writing the book that is nostalgic.

I'm not excited about his return to see him write about the Khunds again. 'm exicited that he's going to create and write about another race/species other than the Khunds that will be just as memorable.


I'm sold...in fact after today's issue, he's already created something, a species, that I think is going to be retconned into the 21st century DC
Uni, probably within 2 or 3 years.


See that's the other thing, all those things Shooter created, they've been retconned into the main DC Uni...so there's nothing fun or exciting about the Legion facing them anymore. There's nothing exciting about seeing them reintroduced every 5 years. But yet that's what all the Legion writers usually want to focus on....reintroducing them....re introducing them, with a tweak. So who's being nostalgic?


I want the best stuff brought back...and to move on..I don't want to just keep bringing the stuff back, especially when it's less memorable than it was the first time around because it's no longer original. There's nothing exciting to me about seeing Vi get the Eye...the Eye is nothing new, and neither is Violet. They've been around since Shooter.

He certainly seems to be attempting to do it again, with that UP Young Heroes team. One issue in, he's already introduced a new character, Giselle, and a few issues after that, he's got five more of them showing up.

Will they have the same traction as the Heroes of Lallor or the Wanderers? Who knows, but I'm willing to give the man a chance.

Indeed, he's already been criticized for introducing new characters and not bringing back old favorites (like Matter-Eater Lad and Infectious Lass), so for every person that wants him to avoid plugging the nostalgia angle, there's another complaining that he's not bringing back enough classic characters.

Frankly, if I wanted to peg the nostalgia pedal to the floor, I'd be more interested in the Action Legion, which feels to me, much like Indy 4, like an attempt to market to pure nostalgia at the sacrifice of interesting storytelling or characterization.

And I think Superboy and I just agreed on something, which explains the flock of flying pigs I just saw out the window.

He certainly has imagination, I will definitely give you that (although the first thing I thought of after reading the issue today about the creatures was the Borg from Star Trek). But I also enjoyed #42 alot - the first one in a long time(but I'll talk about that on the other thread).

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that, either. It seems to be a lot of fan pressure to do that stuff, tho.

Shooter just has a way of making stuff memorable. Like when he introduced Mordru....

The first time Mordru appeared...Superboy and Mon-El ran away...in sheer terror, they didn't just run out of the clubhouse or fly into space, they got the heck out of the millenium to bide time until they could figure out how to defeat him.

The fact that Superboy and Mon-El ran way...forever set Mordru apart from being a mere run of the mill villian. Because those two don't run from anyone of their own free will. It's just little things like that he does that makes stuff stick in your mind...even his bad stuff is memorable.


And the other thing is...most of the people that have been writing this book are fans of the book. They idolize Shooter...even Paul Levitz I think idolizes him to a degree, and so when they write they book they really don't grow it much beyond what Shooter did, they just sort of fufill their childhood dreams playing with Shooter's creations...and they write they book at this insider fan level. It appeals to some fans, pisses others off, and it's just stuff that doesn't generally appeal to many non-Legion fans.

And heck, you can't write this book just to please Legion fans any longer...we are too diverse in our views to make us all happy. Best just to go out and write the best and most original stories you can. The old stuff is always going to divide us now...but the new stuff can still unite. And reintroducing Cosmic Boy LL and Sat Girl isn't new...it was never new.

I agree with Superboy; Shooter isn't the guy who gets notalgic and gives the next Dark Circle story. Shooter is the guy who introduces something brand new and makes *that* memorable. That's what makes him great to have on a series.

And the only way to keep the franchise viable is to give us new characters, situations, themes, subplots, antagonists, planets, weird elements, interesting tidbits and other things. But it must be new.

Word just in from Wizard World Philadelphia, DC Nation panel via Comics Continuum.

"Jim Shooter remains writer of Legion of Super-Heroes, Ian Sattler {DC's Senior story editor) said."

It's not in the Newsarama panel report but maybe other sites will add to it or we'll hear more from Danny Dearest himself over the weekend.

Yay! Good news at last!

So why isn't he remotely involved with L3W? Why such event stays large and away from LSH monthly? I still don't get that.
update: Maybe that's why:
"Anything that has to do with the story of Final Crisis, will take place in Final Crisis and assorted minis," not in regular series, DiDio said.

At today's DC Nation Panel, a fan asked about the rumor of Jim Shooter off the Legion book and here's a quote from Ian Sattler at the Philly Panel:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...0/dcnation.htm

WIZARD WORLD PHILADLEPHIA: DC NATION

* Jim Shooter remains writer of Legion of Super-Heroes, Sattler said

Boy, it sure took them long enough to deny a rumor that could prove destructive to the ongoing series. Wouldn't it have just made more sense to issue a press release as soon as the rumor began making the rounds rather than letting it fester like an open wound for so long?

Now Wizard online is reporting the same on thier coverage section too:

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/053008wwphdcnation.html

Is Jim Shooter still on Legion?

Sattler: "Yes."

From the same convention, other panel:

"In "Legion of Three Worlds," "fans all Legions will have their cake and eat it too -- but two of those pieces won't taste as good as the other one.""

Straight from Dan Didio's mouth:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=158811


Is Jim Shooter definitely the writer on Legion?

“Yes, he has a minimum of a year’s worth of stories.”

DiDio has cleverly not made it clear when the clock starts.

If the year's worth starts with issue 37 then that still only takes him up to the end of this year - the same time L3W finishes.

Now I'm wondering if he's part of the plans for anything post-Legion of 3 Worlds stuff. Didio did use the word "minimum" in describing Shooter's run which doesn't totally rule out more stuff from him.

Could Shooter still be part of a new revamped Legion if DC is going that direction?

Geoff Johns already has his hands full so far with his monthlies to take on another monthly/Big franchise book. Especially since he's on the main Superman titles with Supergirl, Green Lantern & Blackest Night, Flash Rouges mini, JSA....

I don't know, but in interviews, he has made it very clear that he would love to deal with a Superman & LSH book. As I mentioned once, He could have it co-plotting with George Pérez.

I don't remember Johns stating anything about the future of SuperMAN & LSH except he had "some ideas". If anything, the buzz is about him "fixing" Aquaman next. I do however recall Didio teasing about a SuperBOY & LSH book a couple of months ago and polling panel attendees about it a conference.

I have my doubts a full blown relaunch is even pencilled in for 2009 but I wouldn't be surprised to see a SuperBOY & LSH mini - Year Two or Year Five or something. Not by Shooter though. I could be wrong but I can't imagine him wanting to adopt the Johnsboot after investing himself so deeply in the 3boot. And I suspect one part of the LITG rumor has a basis in fact -- that he got wind of what's happening in LO3W and didn't like what he heard.

i'm relieved to hear the rumor squashed.
so what IS the outcome of LO3W? perhaps this 3boot team leaves with Superboy as an early member? that would be nice.
i could get behind that.
is anyone trying to contact Shooter for a little interview with LSH fandom? he's been friendly in the past.

IIRC Johns has said that if he does any ongoing featuring the Legion it will be one featuring Superman or Superboy...

And Perez has said he's not really looking to be a regular artist on a monthly title at this stage of his career....

So unfortunately it doesn't look like we will get an ongoing monthly featuring those two...however, that would seem to bode well for Shooter. I mean who else are they going to get to do it? Giffen? :lol he'd come up with something none of us are prepared for.


If I was DC...I'd put Shooter in charge of the entire 31st century. It'd be basically what he did with Valiant only with the the future of the DC Uni.

That's a very good point and it's something that would catch everyone off guard.

The W&K up to this point, is comprised entirely of the Adventure Era Legionaires...

Supergirl is a member of it...in the original continuity she pre-dated Superman in the Legion.

In fact the W&K chronilogically is so far on a similar path to the original, with the exception of TWolf, KK, Projectra and Shadowlass already being members.


And you know..the early part of the W&K Legion has not been chronicled, we don't even know if we've seen every member of the team.

Do we even know the origin of the team? I honestly can't remember. It's always seemed to me like this book basically launched 4 years into this Legion's history.

That would catch everyone off guard.


One thing I feel fairly certain of...


The ZH Legion is not going to be back in a title, because it simply did not sell well enough. That is the issue with bringing that one back in DC's eyes. At points that title sold under 20k copies per month. DC just has no incentive to relaunch that version.


But it does have one thing none of the others do...a bunch of well liked new and original Legionaires...Gates, XS, the usuals.

Those characters are going to wind up in some Legion somehwere, whether the the ZH Legion is erased or not...they'll either be re-introduced, or they'll jump a universe or timeline to integrate with either the W&K or the Action. And yeah...that move probably won't be any more popular with fans of that Legion than it was when DC did it with the original Legion.

That would be cool to see.

Cool, but I doubt that. He is so far from decisions at this point that it sounds very unlikely. And, for Superboy's happiness, I doubt Giffen will get to touch LSH anytime soon. Which is a pity, because he could get rid of Karate Kid and... However, I'd concede that Giffen should be working with a dialoguer to help him out.
And, please, no more from ZH Legion. That was a bad joke pressed upon us during some years, like: "hey, they've got cool clothes, just like that old LSH we screwed over!"

The plot thickens....

Today's LITG

"On one hand, Dan DiDio's statement that Jim Shooter is definietly the writer on "Legion" because he has twelve issues of Legion written.

One the other, far too many comic pros at the Bristol convention (attended by DC) all convinced that Shooter had parted from DC. And the New York bar scene backing this up.

Could it be that Jim just worked well in advance?

We report, you decide!"

oh no. that sounds like classic corporate double talk. did DiDio every serve as a White House spokesperson? technically, he's being truthful, but he's not exactly forthcoming is he?

I don't why DC is being so coy. Legion of 3 worlds will probably have high sales, so they will probably going ahead an make any changes they have planned. on the other hand if the sales are low(not likely) what they are going to keep the status quo.

this whole pig sty of a situation with the LSH is symbolic for the DC Universe as a whole. ugh.

ugh.
didio IS karl rove!

I think paying any more attention to Rich Johnston at this point is not worth our time. Even if Shooter's run is limited to a year's worth of issues that hardly qualifies him as "off the book" when he's got another 6 issues to go at least. And although my NYC bar knowledge is fairly limited, the ones here are usually full of drunks who talk a lot of BS.

At least we're guaranteed those 12 issues. It wouldn't surprise anyone if that version's wiped out after L3W, given all the hints, so we should take what we can get. And Didio DID say "minimum", so there's at least the possibility for more.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of negotiations going on between DC and Shooter, though, given all the cloak & dagger techniques going on.

In any case we know their are Shooter stories beyond what's been solicited, so I don't see any point in continuing to stretch it out beyond reason. We have more answers than we had on page one, and remember, we were only ever promised a 12-16 issue arc from him.

... but it seems very logical, from all the talk, that THIS Legion is kaput. And Action LSH is for real. In that case, Shooter is filling the blanks for the next generation of Legion book(s) while it can't come for good. And if that is the case, there is some logic for all the secrecy.
Nowadays, I don't care much whose team is on (my favorite era is nowhere to be seen and will never come back) so I now am only counting on a great writer-artist team on the book. So far, Shooter and Manapul are probably the best team since TMK-Immonen. And that's considering Johns-Eaglesham on the Lightning Saga.

Yeah, Ricardo, it probably is "kaput". The likely cause for all the secresy is that DC wants the Shooter run to sell as well as possible for the balance of its run. If they just come out and say it's gonna be "kaput" after L3W, the sales on it will probably tank because a significant segment of its buyers will bale knowing the continuity they're paying good money for is about to be dumped. If they've already paid Shooter for a year's worth of stories, then they'll want to get as much sales out of it as possible.

I don't remember getting any kind of warning, for example, about the Zero Hour reboot while reading "Legion on the Run", probably for the same reason. Maybe I was that out of the loop, but even as the #0 issues were published, and even a little beyond, it wasn't immediately apparent that this wasn't kind of a retcon of the SW6 adventures. I guess I was just in denial to help me cope with losing all that history.

Anyhow, I'd definitely prefer Shooter and Manapul to go forward for a long run, but I'm very cynical given all the signs to the contrary. But at least now I know we'll get pretty much what we were always promised--a year-or-so long arc from Shooter. Remember guys, we were never, ever promised anything beyond that, fan hopes and corporate teases notwithstanding.

Hell, having the same artist and writer for 6 months at today's DCU is a miracle!

Sad but true!

From the April of 2007 LITG:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15529

That's what Rich Johntson was saying in April of 2007. As you can see, he's been wrong about Shooter before. I'm glad I looked into it further because I was giving him a great deal of credit on his accuracy with Shooter reports in the past.

I've also seen him torn a new one by creators(like Mark Waid) for some of the rumors he publishes..

Basically this guy prints stuff, he doesn't give the sources and he doesn't even really print the context in which the statement was made by his sources...


So all he's got to do is print something he hears and then it's up the creators and companies to jump through the hoops he set up for them.

And then when he gets confronted all he has to do is point out that his column is a rumor column.


All this guy is saying is that that's what some creators were saying...he doesn't say if they were speculating, or people who would be in the know on this. He just says some people were saying it.


And even if he is right...DC and Shooter never promised Shooter would be on the book longer than a year...the only thing we have is Shooter saying he had a 16 part epic. That could easily have been condensed to a 12 part epic.

Is that Shooter leaving? Or just the end of a contract?


6 months from now is quitting the book in a huff, as the tone of the rumor seems to indicate he did?


And besides, a lot can happen in 6 months, even if this rumor is true Shooter or DC or whoever may both change their minds.

Oh he's made mistakes in the past that's true, but he's generally quite spot on...

What is actually very very odd that he would repeat a rumour AFTER it's been denied. It generally indicates that's there's more to it... And quite often, writers and artists will be the first to send him an email to deny a rumour of the sort. Visibly, no one from DC has contacted him to tell him he was wrong.

We'll see what happens anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not really fussed if the current incarnation of the Legion ends. While Shooter's run has been better than Waid's, it's still quite uneven in quality (last issue wasn't that good)

We are all assuming that Lo3W is interfering with Shooter's plan & direction. It might well have been brought into play in order to set up Shooter's real plan & direction. At this point it could be that Shooter is in charge of bringing the WaK boot to a particular point where it can converge with the John's Lo3W mini. What flows out of that can easily be a well planned, adjusted reality that sets up Legion continuity at the point where Shooter wants it to be in order to take it fully in his own direction.

Didio parsed his words pretty well in that 'denial,' so I'm still not entirely feeling it.

'Has a year's worth of stories' doesn't mean much.

Well, don't forget than in addition to DC denying it, FJM in this very thread said it's a rumor column so take it with a grain of salt.

But just to play Devil's advocate...

One reason DC would answer the question in legalese like that is because if Shooter is indeed off the book, it could cause a severe drop in sales if people felt the arc wasn't going anywhere.

So there is a motivation for DC to cover this up...


At the same time I still say the Action Legion, was already announced before Shooter was back...and Shooter is very familiar with the financial bottomline, having been a suit for both Marvel and Valiant. He's had to hatchet, he knows why it's done, he knows when it's done...I just don't see him taking it personally, it just doesn't make much sense.

I know I asked Johnston specifically about that in a thread he was participating in, since everyone seems to have the recollection that Shooter came back before the Action Legion...and I didn't get a response from Johnston.


On top of that...it's pretty obvious Shooter wants back in the industry and this is his ticket.


Put it this way...disputes seem to follow Shooter around, and so if there's any uncertainty it's only natural for people to assume the worst, and this includes people within the industry.


Johnston doesn't sound certain at all...it just seems like he's wanting to see if he can make DC and Shooter jumps through his hoops and be an online power player as much as it seems that he's convinced of anything.


After all, what does Johnston have to lose? He can always just play the rumor card...no matter what happens. Printing rumors is what he does...

And making DC and Shooter jump through hoops wouldn't be bad for his business at all.

One other thing I find confusing...

IF you read Johnston's column at some points it sounds like Shooter took himself off the book, and at others it sounds like DC took him off the book...


I mean which is it...did DC kill his Legion, or is Shooter killing it?


If Shooter signed a contract he can't just break it without a good reason can he? What's the point of a contract if he can?


There's also one thing that no one can really question about Shooter...he's the company man all the way, he always has been...even if his arc got axed I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be professional enough to finish it if DC(and Paul Levitz) were asking him too...especially since he's coming back from a blackball.


Getting taken off the book wouldn't kill his comeback...but leaving DC in the lurch certainly would...and Shooter's never left the company in the lurch...


He was fired from both Marvel and Valiant remember...he didn't quit.

I still think this Legion series is ending with issue 50 and a new book will be starting with a new number 1 with whatever version of the team is the focus after Lo3W. It just seems to convientent that the 50th issue of the current series will come out so close to the final issue of the Lo3W mini to me.

Heh. I liked the idea that they would restart with issue #600 rather than #1.

Unfortunately they just miss the boat. Following the numbering that Nightcrawlwr supplied to Barry Kitson, (If the numbering continued from Superboy/Superboy & the LOSH/LOSH), issue #50 would be #603.

EDIT: Though I just realised that would mean that #600 would be #47...What is it about that magic "47"?

Honestly, no matter the outcome of L3W, I hope bridges aren't being burned between Shooter and DC. The consensus in many threads is that in general the DCU has been going downhill as a source of compelling stories (with several notable exceptions, of course) since Identity Crisis. It would do DC well to keep a proven universe-builder like Shooter in their writing stable to complement their current big gun, Geoff Johns. DC could certainly use more minds like Shooter crafting the DCU and less like Winick, for example. Legion or no, put Shooter on a few key titles and a big event or two, and the DCU would surely begin an upturn in quality. What better braintrust than Shooter, Morrison and Johns to do this?

Don't forget Jim Starlin, James Robinson and Keith Giffen as universe builders... And I would love to see Ostrander and DeMatteis back swinging.

Ostrander is definitely oustanding, and I am very much looking forward to Robinson's upcoming return. Robinson definitely seems to be coming back with a vengeance. Ostrander was always better, IMO, on more under the radar titles where he could spin his stories. But I'd certainly love to see more of that from him again beyond his recent Suicide Squad revival.

From what I hear, Starlin's recent DC stuff is hit or miss. No firsthand knowledge there.

Giffen has a good track record, too, though he's been a bit of a free agent of late, straddling DC, Marvel and some indies. Giffen with too much power scares me, though!

DeMatteis...don't know if he really would want to return in a larger comics writing role. I think the way his style's evolved, he's more of a Vertigo type now, not so much a universe-builder.

Shooter--it's just a no-brainer that he could be a real shot in the arm for DC's line. He's probably built more universes than just about anyone. Quite a resume, he brings!

Yes, indeed. In fact, I'll pass Secret Six just to prove how much I wanted a Suicide Squad back. And I don't think Rucka gets anywhere near him on what the Spectre is about.

I liked both minis (Death of New Gods and Mystery In Space). This is where Starlin thrives, in big space stuff.
Giffen is DC exclusive now. And we shouldn't forget how he recreated the Justice League first and then the whole DC galaxy (at one point, he had GL, L.E.G.I.O.N. and LSH). It seems he is about to do the same for the magic side of DC now.
Not an Universe builder, for sure, but he is character-driven. I am missing this at DC now.


Surely. But I don't see DC opening too many branches for him. Has he given any new interviews recently? None...

If you're talking universe-building, then I'd nominate Morrison up there. He's done so in the past with JLA, New X-Men & All-Star Superman. IMO he has a knack for moving characters & their stories forward.

Though dwelling more on rejuvenating ideas, I'd consider Johns a universe-builder in terms of his ability to mesh seemingly disparate elements into a coherent & believable whole.

I agree, Igee. I mentioned Morrison 5 posts above with Shooter and Johns!

Hmmm... Superboy's posts at the bottom of the previous page have calmed me. His arguments plus DC giving Shooter's LSH the hardcover treatment tell me things are gonna be.... okay.

Wow, am I the lonely voice in the wilderness here. I'll say this up front: don't hate me for my heresy.

I've been pretty bored by Shooter's run so far. I know that the business of comics is built around the trade paperback and multi-issue story arcs now, but what the heck is taking so long? Am I the only one who feels like thirty years ago Shooter would have banged this story out in 24 pages and created a classic in the process? Why is it taking the team more issues to put a stop to these attacks than it did to shut down Darkseid? Darkseid! Hell, these guys closed the door on Mordru in a single issue once (ok, so it wasn't a very good issue, but still...)

I'm plugging along here waiting for Shooter to get to the point. And to stop writing endless battle scenes. Maybe I'm showing my age, but I'm getting pretty bored with those.

All this is not to say that I'm cheering the Action Legion. That story was fun and all, but I'd rather move forward. Much as I love the Legions of the past, one of the draws of the book for me through the years has been the new spin that each new era brought to the overall story. I really enjoyed the work that WaK did on the 3boot. I was really hoping that Shooter would bring something new with him. So far, I haven't seen it.

You are not the only one, as far as I've seen. But most of the criticism falls simply on pace. It's not the story and much less characterization. In fact, W&K was so much lacking on that it seemed about time a writer dealt with that.
I can say I don't feel this slowness, on the contrary. What I see is there is something very, very weird creeping on the background and - as a powerful enemy working on the background, it really should take some time for it to come up.
Meanwhile, I am so enjoying his portraits and Manapul's great dynamics... Definitely an enormous improvement over Waid and filler artists plaguing M&K run.

I don't know for sure he is on the book...but I don't think Johnston does either.


You know someting no one mentioned...Shooter could be disappointed at the response to his return to the book and it could be a simple matter of pride.


Either way...I want to see his epic concluded. If DC gives up on it with no conclusion I'll be upset. And 6-7 months from now, a year total is plenty of time for Shooter to capture an audience if it's possible. IF the book starts selling...DC isn't going to cancel it or dump it.

DC isn't going to lightly toss away $$$, especially any without the Siegel tax on it.

IF they the see possiblity of Shooter launching an entire Valiant Future in the 30th century(as he is capable of doing), they won't pass on that either. And the scope of what he has planned could be that big.

I think Shooter is pretty much the last straw for DC...I suspect they'll give his Legion every chance to succeed right up until the end.

FWIW, Shooter's coming closest to pulling it off of all the Post Crisis guys IMO. He's just not getting the readers.

I am currently reopening this subject due to this article here .
It now makes more sense to restate what my suspicions were: Shooter was virtually ran over by DiDio on Legion of 3 Worlds.
And to make it even clearer, Giffen states the mess in this GREAT Ambush Bug cameo, with an obligatory Legion reference:



UPDATE: Thanks, Nightcrawler, for the editing!

I'm right there with you. I think it's been too long setting up an enemy that I don't find engaging.

The argument can be made that this is allowing Shooter more time to focus on the characters.

Unfortunately, I hate most of his characterizations.
Like everyone else, eagerly anticipating his run, but it's going south pretty quickly for me.

Ditto me in too.

It lacks the freshness many/most Shooter concepts seem to have, and althogh some characterizations have been good, not all of them have.

For me, it is just the contrary. He has finally nailed what made LSH a decent book before 1994. Dense storytelling, long winding plots, multiple focus, characterization over "fist fighting".

I totally agree. here we are over 40 issues into the series, and we're just starting to find out who these characters are. that's an amazing lack of characterization by the previous writers. Unfortunately, I don't see the series lasting beyond L3W, so I don't think Shooter will get to the point he wanted to.

To me, that's a good thing. I don't know who Element Lad is anymore, and without Bouncing Boy, the Legion has no humanity. So, I'm looking forward to a return to a semblance their former selves, even if it's not exactly the same.

Too bad for Shooter though, the stories are good, and the characterization even better. He landed on a train that was already out of control, and wasn't given the time to right it. If allowed to continue, in a year from now, this would be a great book and all the Waid mistakes would be written over.

Me too. I had high hopes for Shooter's run but its left me pretty cold so far. I've been really shocked at the posters who have reacted so positively to it. Subjective and all that, but I'm really not enjoying this run that much at all other than the outstanding art. Legion is definitely not one of DC's strongest books right now.

I'm so bored with those monsters!

Unfortunately, nowadays, you have to do six issue arcs to fit in a trade paperback, hence long boring stories. During the Adventure era you would get excellent one or two issue stories, like the induction of KK,PP,FL and NK, the intro of the Fatal 5 and Suneater story or the Mordru two parter which is Superboy's favorite story and one of mine. I know I certainly would like shorter events so more characters could get used in different situations.

I don't know, but I don't see how we can relate long to boring necessarily. Levitz used to write very long stories, almost none of them boring. On the other hand, Judd Winick write "fast paced stories" most of them incredibly dull.
Also, we can't compare those early LSH stories in terms of character development to what is currently expected in a comic book. Either you will do something incredibly ethereal such as ALL-STAR Superman or you will be seen as simplistic.

Shooter's subplots are great, but his entire runs seems to consist of nothing but. Yeah, the alien androids are a big (often boring) threat, and no one knows why? We get it. 3 issues -- max would have been fine. Or better yet, tell some big stories while this is happening in the background and build up to it.

The characterization is ... different. Not bad, a bit out there at times.

I do wish he would have added to the membership or brought back some old favorites right up front.

More on Shooter's leaving of Legion.....

"It is true that there has been creative, editorial and suit divides at DC over DiDio's actions of late. Jim Shooter quit “Legion" (though leaving enough scripts so that no one will notice for quite some time)."

Full article is here:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16910

... which is exactly what we have thought at other topic discussions. He's been out at least since L3W has leaked (and I bet without his knowledge - even a different editorial team is dealing with it).
Shame on DC...