posted
By the way, in no way am I condoning Hank's (or Tony's) behavior. Wife beating is a horrible and destructive act. The same can be said for abusing alcohol, whether alcoholism is a disease, as some say, or not.
But although heroes (real and fictional) should strive to represent the best of humanity, they are, I think, better seen as representatives of humanity and the flaws we strive to overcome. As such, they should occasionally fail. As Lardy suggested, it's easier to relate to characters when they undergo the same personal and family problems that many of us undergo.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My dad was both abusive (albeit verbally, not physically) and an alcoholic, so maybe that informs why I related to seeing superheroes showing those flaws. My dad was kind of heroic to his peers in a way and yet he had those problems at home that those peers never saw.
As a kid, I think it helped me understand the duality of my dad a little better. These were heroic guys who were fallible and very human underneath it all. Does this mean they were to be admired for being abuser and alcoholic? Hell, no! What made their stories great was that they overcame their problems and were all the stronger for having done so. Were they well-told and consistent with their established characterizations? I honestly don't know. But I'm thankful for having their stories to help a young teenager through a period in his life packed with turmoil and uncertainty for the future in some small way.
And by extension, I was glad to see the Legion grow up to be fallible themselves during 5YL as they began to age with me.
posted
I read something interesting tonight here on the "Shooter off Legion?" thread that's a different perspective IMO on what happened when Superboy was retconned as being from a pocket universe following the Byrne relaunch of Superman and his never having been Superboy at all. My take on what the poster's (ironically, "Superboy") essentially saying is that from the point Superboy is retconned as being from the pocket universe, we are reading the adventures of an alternate Legion (very similar but diverged from that timeline--kinda like the idea behind the SF show "Sliders"), a New Earth/post-Crisis Legion. Before that point we had been reading the adventures of the Silver Age Earth-1 Legion. So everything from, say, Vol. 3 #38 'til the end of Vol. 4 is the first total reboot, not the one that began after Zero Hour. He reconciles this very reasonably by saying its ludicrous to explain away all those decades of continuity, especially when the Legion also teamed up with Superman on many occasions.
I've gotta say that even though the tone of his posts are a little on the combative side, the idea underneath is an interesting one, especially in that it shows where the Lightning Saga Legion came from. Of course a few years later, we had Zero Hour, a NEW-New Earth and and a new Legion to go with it. And then I guess Infinite Crisis birthed the WaKboot, even though IC came out after that series' launch...possibly Superboy-Prime's pre-IC reality punches. But IC and 52 also opened up the return of the multiverse and the LS/Silver Age Legion.
But, anyway, the core idea behind Superboy's post is intriguing. Though it may have been discussed before (I'm not sure if it was worded exactly that way), I was wondering what the reaction to the idea might be. Mostly the PU Superboy thing is discussed more as a retcon than a reboot, but I can see the argument.
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: What made their stories great was that they overcame their problems and were all the stronger for having done so.
Agreed.
Another aspect that needs to be pointed out is that the character who emerged strongest from Hank's downfall was not Hank, but Jan. She not only left Hank but became leader of the Avengers, something that would have been impossible so long as she was still in his shadow.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: But, anyway, the core idea behind Superboy's post is intriguing. Though it may have been discussed before (I'm not sure if it was worded exactly that way), I was wondering what the reaction to the idea might be. Mostly the PU Superboy thing is discussed more as a retcon than a reboot, but I can see the argument.
Thoughts?
I think it's a semantic distinction at this point, but I always understood a retcon to be something that was inserted into a character's history that did not significantly change his or her present circumstances. In other words, Roy Thomas' ALL-STAR SQUADRON stories, though set in the 1940s, did not significantly change the present circumstances of the JSA as they were depicted in the 1980s, when ALL-STAR was published.
A reboot, on the other hand, consists of going back to the beginning of a character's history and starting over from scratch, as was done with the Legion in 1994 and again in 2004. This also describes what was done with the DC Universe as a whole following CRISIS.
The 5YL Legion falls somewhere in between. Their history was mostly left intact, except for the parts involving Superboy and Supergirl being redacted and replaced. Superboy (the poster) rightly points out that this was a significant alteration from what had gone before; it set the V.4 (5YL) Legion apart from the original Legion.
(I hasten to point out, though, that the Legion he seems to be championing was vastly different from the one that appeared in ADVENTURE COMICS # 247. Does this mean, per his argument, that a reboot occurred sometime in the early Silver Age of the Legion? If so, would this be the first reboot?)
As for the 5YL Legion, in an earlier post I used to term "mini-reboot." I'm comfortable with that term unless someone has a better one.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: As for the 5YL Legion, in an earlier post I used to term "mini-reboot." I'm comfortable with that term unless someone has a better one.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I'm pretty sure there's a thread around here somewhere where not too long ago I pointed out the need for a term for something stronger than a retcon but less substantial than a reboot. Retcons add to history but are compatible with established facts, while reboots completely eliminate all history. "Softboot" is sometimes used for something that intentionally changes history, but leaves a significant part of it intact.
Of course, I'd argue that LSH #300 was a fairly significant continuity change, albeit one that messed with their established fistory* rather than their established history.
See this post for enlightenment on the notion of "fistory"!
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fistory? Softboot? Our language changes before our eyes!
(I actually like "softboot.")
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: I'm pretty sure there's a thread around here somewhere where not too long ago I pointed out the need for a term for something stronger than a retcon but less substantial than a reboot. Retcons add to history but are compatible with established facts, while reboots completely eliminate all history. "Softboot" is sometimes used for something that intentionally changes history, but leaves a significant part of it intact.
I'd argue there's nothing terribly "soft" about altering such an integral part of Legion continuity, even if its intent was to preserve as much as possible. Superboy was that important to the Legion, as I'm sure you'd agree, EDE. So changing things so that the guy who was their foundation for three decades of comics was never the "real" Kal-El--well, there's nothing "soft" about that. In theory this patch could have preserved all that continuity, but it still established that they had had a ringer among them all along...kinda "hard" if you ask most folks.
A softboot, IMO, would be something like how Fantastic Four retconned out Reed and Ben's being Vietnam (or was it Korea? WW2?) vets and the circumstances around their fateful spaceflight. Marvel does that every so often with their 'sliding timeline'. That's what I would call a softboot.
I reiterate: softboot is definitely too tame a description for the PU Superboy patch and all the changes that followed it. In a way, I'd be more inclined to call the Valor substitution more of a softboot because of the headache it got rid of by eliminating the PU Superboy patch.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
Note: I wasn't endorsing it, just pointing out that it's another word that gets used for things like that.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Note: I wasn't endorsing it, just pointing out that it's another word that gets used for things like that.
Understood completely, Eryk. I knew you of all people didn't feel it was appropriate. But I felt it my duty to show how "softboot" would not apply in this case ASAP.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: A softboot, IMO, would be something like how Fantastic Four retconned out Reed and Ben's being Vietnam (or was it Korea? WW2?) vets and the circumstances around their fateful spaceflight. Marvel does that every so often with their 'sliding timeline'. That's what I would call a softboot.
What you describe is also known as "compression of time." It was something Marvel was doing all along and with little fanfare (in fact, they seemed to hope no one would notice), so I don't think it's warranted to give it a third name, softboot.
I do see your argument about the term "softboot" being applied to 5YL or the Pocket Universe Superboy. Perhaps the term I stumbled upon, mini-reboot, is a better description, after all.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dnno, HWW, "mini-reboot" doesn't really have the teeth to it when you consider my argument and the emotional, far-reaching implications. There's just nothing "mini" about this retcon.
Perhaps, the poster Superboy was right to call it a full-on reboot? I'm definitely leaning that way, even as someone who loved 5YL so much.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
