Topic: Lardy's Roundtable: What must Levitz do to ensure Long Life for the Legion?
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: $0.99 first issue of Levitz's run would be pretty groovy too!
So long as it's printed bigger than a Chick tract.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Wolverine didn't start as a main character, he was a breakaway character, along with Storm, Nightcrawler and Kitty to a lesser extent, I think, and then the remade Jean as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Unfortunately, that's where most all of Cockrum's characters ended up.
They were also mixed in age with older adult mentors, like Xaviar.
The Legion is/should be similar in structure, especially since that's how they started.
1) I think that Legion has been held back because so many of them are too limited in ability and so, very difficult to write for. That's why Imra and Brainy and Lar and Cham end up in so many stories, actually doing something besides being hostages or being eye candy and carry everything.
Once in awhile, a story for a MatterEaterLad can be thought up, but usually they're just baggage. Or writers push to make everyone relevant and create unbelievable stories and/or silly or weak villians.
But you can't just 'beef up' their powers, either.
2) 3) 4) But to get a larger audience, they need to play to a broad age demigraphic, be part of a larger picture, as part of the DCU and have some ground breaking ideas.
Continuity is fine but their SO bound by their past. That needs to stop. We can be aware of it but it's gone, done, over.
5) Don't fix things and don't solve old plot threads or bring back old characters UNLESS it works in the here and now.
New people just won't want to be hung up in it. You have to be able to jump in anywhere and enjoy the story without having to know all of the relationships and history.
6) I'd get one of the super artists rather than the traditional newbies who become supers unless they're already on the way to it.
Others have addressed marketing, packaging, story quality, creative freedom, etc..
And I agree that GREAT covers is a must, too.
Breakaways have to be created though or the Legion is doomed in today's market, I think, which seems to hang on the familiar, powerful and charismatic.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
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From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Wolverine didn't start as a main character, he was a breakaway character, along with Storm, Nightcrawler and Kitty to a lesser extent, I think, and then the remade Jean as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Unfortunately, that's where most all of Cockrum's characters ended up.
They were also mixed in age with older adult mentors, like Xaviar.
The Legion is/should be similar in structure, especially since that's how they started.
1) I think that Legion has been held back because so many of them are too limited in ability and so, very difficult to write for. That's why Imra and Brainy and Lar and Cham end up in so many stories, actually doing something besides being hostages or being eye candy and carry everything.
Once in awhile, a story for a MatterEaterLad can be thought up, but usually they're just baggage. Or writers push to make everyone relevant and create unbelievable stories and/or silly or weak villians.
But you can't just 'beef up' their powers, either.
I think you are right when comparing with X-Men characters but why can't Legion characters be beefed up? Most of the current Legion characters were created in the sixties/early seventies when comic characters were much more light-weight than today's creations. That's not to say that the existing Legionnaires haven't got potential to be galaxy spanning heavy-weights.
Timber Wolf has become a Wolverine-lite and Mysa's Black Witch persona has possibilities. Both could be expanded. In the past Levitz re-imaged Jeckie into a much more powerful Sensor Girl, others could be beefed-up without becoming copies of other characters.
Night Girl should be a much creepier creature of the night in a sort of vampire-ish way or as ashadow demon. This could be explained from the 'destroying shadow demons makes her stronger' comment in Lo3W
Shadow Lass is somewhat limited compared to the reboot Umbra but a trip to the caves on Talok could put that right.
Starman's mass powers can create black holes and do all sorts of stuff like that that has never been explored.
Has Ultra Boy only used his energy to copy Kryptonian powers because of his own imagination. What if he was taught to do just about anything?
And guys like Mon-El, Sun Boy, Lightning Lad, Wildfire and especially Element Lad are already amazingly powerful but have never been used to their full potential. Look what Dirk did when held by the Justice League Earth.
Even Matter-Eater Lad. What if he still retains the energy of the Miracle Machine? Even if he doesn't, the strength and level of invulnerability it takes to chew and swallow rocks shows a level of power totally untapped. And what about the matter he digests what does it do to his body. If a human eats too much carrotine they turn orange. If Tenz eats too much iron, does he turn into Ferro Lad? What if he ate Wildfire? Superboy Prime's name for Drake - Wildfart - springs to mind.
Over the years, the Legions adversaries have increased in power, pretty much in line with the rest of the medium and that is why Superman and Green Lantern are more front and centre than they've ever been. Guys like Aquaman and Green Arrow can't really hack it against Darkseid. The Legion needs more big hitters to counter-balance the level of villain in today's comics.
[ October 27, 2009, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Silver Age Lad ]
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: Special issues with top-artists using "out of continuity" tales (in that James Robinson "tales of days past" way) should be embraced.
I think this approach is absolutely essential for the success of Levitz's return to the Legion. In the same way that Robinson peppered in his "Times Past" stories between arcs, Levitz should definitely sprinkle flashback tales fairly frequently, at least once a year. This would serve two purposes: 1) It would enrich new readers with the breadth of Legion history, and 2) It could be used to hammer out continuity issues for us lifers who want to have certain continuity issues tied up and clarified.
For this to work it should be relevant to preceding or, especially, upcoming storylines in the book. Another terrific example (other than Robinson's Starman) was Geoff Johns' "Secret Origin" arc on Green Lantern which achieved both of those purposes perfectly. Maybe Levitz should do a Secret Origins arc as well to seed the continuity fixes and (re)introduce people to some characters and situations he will be bringing in. Hell, it wouldn't be a bad way at all to start his run! It would provide perfect accessibility to readers old and new.
Well, I got a little ahead of myself there, but the idea actually excited me quite a bit. In any case Levitz has done these kinds of flashback stories before, so it's certainly more than a passing possibility. The difference now is that key word "relevance". At least in the early stages Paul shouldn't do something like that Ferro Lad/Karate Kid/Projectra flashback story (from V3 #31), lovely as it was, unless it enhances directly the overall tapestry he's trying to set up. Do it in this manner, so that win you have a one-off it doesn't feel like a fill-in to the reader.
That's exactly what a book with the granduer and history to it the LSH has to do to ensure it'll have a long and healthy run. We need more fellow Legion maniacs!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Set's comments in the other Levitz thread reminds me:
I think we've had more than enough legacy heroes and villains, thankyouverymuch. Keep the ones you have, but please no more.
Something about the overemphasis on legacy heroes/villains really sticks in my craw. Possibly because it ties into the always-popular class issues, possibly because it goes against the notion of self-determination. ("What we were thousands of years ago, we will still be thousands of years from now." Pre-destiny. How... Puritan. How really out of place against a backdrop that should have at least a few Utopian elements in it.)
Also, like a lot of other promising ideas, it loses its meaning when overused. And, yeah, it makes homogenization and constant dragging into all those present-time mega-events-du-jour a given. I've had my fill of that, truthfully.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: And, yeah, it makes homogenization and constant dragging into all those present-time mega-events-du-jour a given. I've had my fill of that, truthfully.
Yet, I believe that some cross-over into the DCU is essential to ensuring the Legion's continued health. A title so isolated has to have some way of inviting new readers into its doors.
But the story must make sense. It must not feel forced. Find a logical way for the Legion to participate in the story and make it work for the Legion in such a way that it showcases the book's appeal to someone who's sampling the book because of the crossover.
DC's already setting one of these up nicely as it is apparent that the Legion will be involved somehow in the larger Superman/New Krypton story that's going on. Obviously, several Legionnaires have already been revealed to be on a mission in the past, and Mon-El has his own front-and-center role. This will be a natural bridge for readers to the Legion's Adventure Comics run and will presumably have some direct tie-in issues in that comic. And it won't feel forced at all because it's been set up for over a year now.
But after that, just avoid crappy tie-ins like the Millennium issues, and if at all possible, approach cross-overs in the mannner of Marvel's Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy and Incredible Hercules by telling a complete and self-contained story within the larger cross-over tapestry. The stories the former two told during Annhilation: Conquest and War of Kings, and the latter told during Secret Invasion, were superior and satisfying in that way. Check 'em out sometime if you don't believe me!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: I think we've had more than enough legacy heroes and villains, thankyouverymuch. Keep the ones you have, but please no more.
Something about the overemphasis on legacy heroes/villains really sticks in my craw. Possibly because it ties into the always-popular class issues, possibly because it goes against the notion of self-determination. ("What we were thousands of years ago, we will still be thousands of years from now." Pre-destiny. How... Puritan. How really out of place against a backdrop that should have at least a few Utopian elements in it.)
I do agree with this for the most part. One thing about the classic Legion was its members were definitely not legacy heroes. You could sort of argue that about Mon-El, but that wouldn't really hold up well. Ultra Boy and early Star Boy had the Kryptonian power sets but weren't legacies.
It's important that the 31st century doesn't appear to be all about the 20th and 21st centuries. The major aspect in which it is so is the inspiration of Superman and his heroic age to the Legion's approach. But if we have a Bat-Legionnaire, a Flash-Legionnaire, etc., it's just taken too far. (I'd give Jenni a free pass, however! )
I would go further here and stress the importance of staying away from showing the future of 21st century characters and concepts. Laurel Kent as a descendant of Superman was a mistake (though I don't condone her being made into a Manhunter). I'd also stay away from the Green Lantern Corps, even though that's already been addressed in L3W. Thing is, you just don't know where characters and concepts will go from one creative team to another. So if you show something and later the other book contradicts it, we get into retcon territory, and we know the pitfalls that come with those.
Levitz can be cute and show glimpses of things that are left to the reader's imagination, but nothing definitive. The Legion has plenty of stories to tell without having to rely on legacy-related plots. (Note: I don't feel this contradicts my cross-over post above--I can explain if necessary.)
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Lardi wrote [snip]:
quote:...The stories the former two told during Annhilation: Conquest and War of Kings, and the latter told during Secret Invasion, were superior and satisfying in that way. Check 'em out sometime if you don't believe me!
Dude, have those stories been collected? I might have a shot at finding them in the library if the answer's "yes."
I think I take an opposite approach to you vis-a-vis big crossover events: I'm afraid they'll put off new fans rather than lure them. Of course, when I'm thinking of "new," I'm thinking of people who don't pay very much attention to comics in general. I can sort of see the logic of wanting to draw in the people who are already halfway there, so to speak. But those people are already buying a ton of books if they're motivated to follow a crossover. At some point, I think they'll throw up their hands and just say "no more."
I post on a couple of more general comics comms, over at LJ, and I can tell you that Legion fans are so thin on the ground that one of the mods referred to me last week as "that other Legion fan." (She was sort of joking, though. I've counted at least five or six.) But it's kind of sobering, even as a random, non-scientific sample, amongst people that are already very well-disposed towards the superhero genre.
I'd rather see new people who aren't in "the brotherhood/sisterhood" get drawn in by what makes the book different from other superhero books. Since my observation is that simply homogenizing it more to appeal to people already reading superhero books is dicey, at best. All that homogenization, the "spillage" of stuff like Crisis into Legion continuity in a way that permanently altered it and darkened the overall environment considerably... was kind of what drove me away from the genre for two decades.
I think more of that all over again would be hamstringing talented people unfairly. I also have my doubts that it would work from a commercial standpoint, especially with the way markets are now.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Lardi wrote: [snip]
quote:...I would go further here and stress the importance of staying away from showing the future of 21st century characters and concepts. Laurel Kent as a descendant of Superman was a mistake (though I don't condone her being made into a Manhunter). I'd also stay away from the Green Lantern Corps, even though that's already been addressed in L3W. Thing is, you just don't know where characters and concepts will go from one creative team to another. So if you show something and later the other book contradicts it, we get into retcon territory, and we know the pitfalls that come with those...
Thanks for getting into the specifics of "hamstringing." Heck, if people can't resist telling that kind of story, they have Elseworlds and the like, don't they?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I like the Superman connection, think the Flash connection makes good sense and don't mind the GL connection now that it exists but that should be enough. After that, no more connections to the present day DCU unless it gets real offbeat! The Legion stands out on its own as strongly as all the other "great" properties at DC, and doesn't need to be similar to them. It'd be like putting a mutant in the Fantastic Four just 'cuz. It doesn't need to be done. So I hope Levtiz closes those floodgates ASAP.
On the other hand, a Legionnaire that isn't getting much screen time from a crowded Legion book that could really shine elsewhere is more than welcome to have his own series or be part of another series in the rest of the DCU. No room for Tellus in the Legion book? I'll gladly check him out in Superman or Kid Flash or wherever else.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Here's something that I don't think has been done. What about a line-wide DC crossover where a bunch of present-day DC characters all have to travel to the 31st century for some reason? No reason the Legion always has to be the road team.
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Here's something that I don't think has been done. What about a line-wide DC crossover where a bunch of present-day DC characters all have to travel to the 31st century for some reason? No reason the Legion always has to be the road team.
Very interesting idea, Matt. If it were line-wide, though, the story behind it would need to be exceptionally well-crafted to make the readers buy a scenario like that.
Anyone got any ideas what the basic story would be behind such a crossover?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: On the other hand, a Legionnaire that isn't getting much screen time from a crowded Legion book that could really shine elsewhere is more than welcome to have his own series or be part of another series in the rest of the DCU. No room for Tellus in the Legion book? I'll gladly check him out in Superman or Kid Flash or wherever else.
Hmmm...I could see Jenni easily being a supporting cast member in the upcoming Flash or Kid Flash books! (maybe even a JSAer and a new pal for Stargirl, though she might be too similar to Cyclone, especially personality-wise.)
The Legionnaires in the Johnsboot seem a little too old for the Teen Titans...though maybe Pol? (Can't remember--has he been shown alive in the Johnsboot since the Magic Wars probably didn't happen?!?!) If so, that would be a way of getting himself from beneath Rokk's shadow.
Any other natural fits?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Here's something that I don't think has been done. What about a line-wide DC crossover where a bunch of present-day DC characters all have to travel to the 31st century for some reason? No reason the Legion always has to be the road team.
It was called Legion of Three Worlds
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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