This is topic Lardy's Roundtable: What must Levitz do to ensure Long Life for the Legion? in forum Long Live the Legion! at Legion World.


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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Note: This topic was originally entitled "How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?" The discussion evolved WAY off-topic, but the energy here was so good, I didn't want to derail or dilute things, so welcome to "Lardy's Roundtable" where, hopefully, the discussions will continue to evolve and be reflected in a flexible thread title which will reflect the current direction. All posters are welcome to sit at the table and share your passion with your fellow fans!

The biggest hole for me as an LSH fan in my comics collection is the Superboy & the LSH era between where the Archives end up until Levitz returned with Giffen and began a fan-favorite run. Though I'm dying to read Earthwar and some of the things right before it and am committed to getting those someday, I've always been a little hesitant to fill in all the blanks between Earthwar and that beloved Levitz run because, well, most of what's in there looks pretty "meh", at best.

I mean, there were apparently some good Starlin issues along with more scattered Levitz material and there was the Dark Man story and Reflecto...but even those don't seem like really must-reads, from what I hear, y'know?

And of course there's at least one big red flag named Gerry Conway in there which doesn't exactly thrill.

So the question is: It's all or nothing---should I bother to fill that hole in my collection between Earthwar and Levitz/Giffen because it would be absolutely worth it...or should I fuhgedaboudit? (and of course, why or why not?)

[ October 26, 2009, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Lardi the Incorruptible ]
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
(And by the way, I won't accept completism in my collection as a good enough reason to get them! )
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
That's the period when I first got into the Legion. The issue when Blok joined... the Reflecto stories... Maybe it wasn't all good, but there were highlights.
 

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Posted by reckless on :
 
That's when I started reading LSH, so I have a soft spot for that era. I liked the Dark Man and Legion of Super-Assassins issues (they were somewhat related and introduced Blok to the team). I also enjoyed the first part of the Reflecto issues, with Grimbor's return, but the whole Suberboy/Ultra Boy/Time Trapper plot made my head spin.

There definitely were some dogs in that run. Lord Romdur's Castle was the absolute nadir, though I'm not sure it would be viewed so poorly if it had appeared during the past 5 years. Oh, who am I kidding, it would suck no matter when it was written.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Hmm... this is the biggest hole in my collection as well!

I'm waiting for the Archives the fill in the gap!
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Two words: Dr. Mayavale.

One more word: Drek!


This was also my "prime time" for the Legion, as the Earthwar issues were my first exposure to the team, and I was in full "got to have every issue" mode! There were some stinkers for sure (Romdur and Mayavale stand out) but I enjoyed most all of it: the Psycho-Warrior, The Dark Man, even the Grimbor/Reflecto saga. I loved seeing the team go back to Smallville with Superboy to figure out what happened to him to become Reflecto, even though the payoff was "meh". Good times overall...good times!!!
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Other "pluses": Jimmy Janes' artwork. Pat Broderick artwork. George Perez did some covers too!

"Minuses": Steve Ditko artwork. Bleah!! (not good for Legion, he drew both the Romdur and Mayavale issues, contributing to my contempt for both stories). Gerry Conway's scripts were weak.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Garth and Imra now back as stars in the LSH...Omega and the destruction of the HQ...Wildfire standing up to Omega...Marte Allon...Blok...The Legion of Super-Assassins...The Dark Man...Bouncing Boy standing among the dead Legionnaire statues...Wildfire explains his origin to Lamprey, Nightwind and Crystal Kid...Amazing George Perez covers...Superboy exits the Legion and the Legion takes center stage once and for all...pretty groovy Tyroc, Dawnstar, Shadow Lass, Wildfire, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl issues right after...Karate Kid smashes a giant chain imprisoning the Earth...Timberwolf at his most isolated and lonely fighting himself to become a stronger member of the LSH...the New HQ...Saturn Girl and Phantom Girl share their only sweet, sisterly moment in LSH history and yes, it is a great one...

These issues space-rawk. They are by no means perfect, as many of given examples (and there are sure more to give). Conway's stories are not that great.

But at the end of the day, they rawk. There are some great moments in there that continue to bring the Legionnaires from their Cockrum/Grell days to where they are in the Levitz saga. And its the 70's costumes, when the Legion still had a majesty and vastness to it that still felt as if it had no limits whatsoever.

Buy them
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
Look at it this way, Lardy. This may be one of the weakest for the periods for the Legion, but the Legion at its worst is still a hell of a lot more fun than most comics. Blok and Dawnstar in the 20th century? Shrinking Violet going back in time and meeting baby Kal-El on Krypton? Chuck and Lu releasing a super spcace genie? Tyroc from the Brigadoon of space? Come on, now. You aren't going to get this stuff anyplace else.

I recently re-read all this stories and had a lot of fun doing it. I even enjoyed the Ditko issues. They weren't nearly as bad as I remembered.

[ March 23, 2008, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
At the same time, though, you can argue that absolutely nothing really significant happened during that run except for, perhaps, the intro of Blok! Am I right or wrong?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Superboy leaves the Legion!!!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Well, yeah...but he does return soon, albeit fairly rarely. What was the reason he left, anyway (other than to give the LSH the spotlight alone, obviously)?
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Tharok's last appearance for over a decade is during this period!

Er... unless you count his appearance on the Spider-Man cartoon!

[ March 23, 2008, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Hm...you can't really base an era on if anything signficant happens. One could say nothing really happens in Levitz's run from about Val's death to Superboy's death of great signficance, but I wouldn't agree with that. Its a matter of opinion. And if the stories are entertaining and good, that's what matters. I'd say about these, its 70% good, 30% 'okay'. None are really terrible.

I think its an interesting era as its the final culmination of the period of 'maturing of the Legion' that began with Cockrum. In a way, it serves as the last phase before the Levitz era begins, and thats what makes it cool.

Then again, there are very few periods of the Legion that I greatly dislike.
 

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Posted by matlock on :
 
If memory serves that stretch reintroduced R.J. Brande into the series didn't it? Following the Omega story the Legion's HQ was damaged for an unusually long period as Brande's fortune had been siphoned off and the UP couldn't pay for it? Considering how important a role he played in the Levitz era that was pretty significant.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
What? Wasn't RJ in the LSH origin story that appeared mid-to-late Adventure run?
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
I'd agree with that matlock, it really did bring R.J. back into the limelight.

And the Omega 2 parter by Starlin was awesome! Wildfire and Superboy standing in the rubble of their HQ was "the" definitive Legion moment, and said something about both these young men's characters. Thanks for the reminder Cobie!
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
What? Wasn't RJ in the LSH origin story that appeared mid-to-late Adventure run?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Omni Craig:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
What? Wasn't RJ in the LSH origin story that appeared mid-to-late Adventure run?

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If memory serves Lardy, R.J. was introduced during Adventure Comics run (around #350) as their rich benefactor, but their origin as a team (saving his life) was never told until the 1970s (I believe it was in DC Super-Stars #17).

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The founders are shown saving Brande in Superboy #147 from 1968. The DC Super Stars story expands on that and tells how they got deputized by the Science Police and could function as law enforcement officials.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
This was the period where I actually dropped the Legion from my reading list. The only time in my life that I refused to buy the Legion, btw. I've since filled in the gap with comics from overstock sales and the infamous "quarter box" but I almost never read them. (the completist thing)

There was hardly a book on the shelves worth reading at the time and I almost stopped buying comics altogether. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that Frank Miller was hired to do Daredevil or my comics collection would have ended right there.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Thanks Jerry, I remember that issue Superboy issue now!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Ahem...

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Well, yeah...but [Superboy] does return soon, albeit fairly rarely. What was the reason he left, anyway (other than [the editorial reason] to give the LSH the spotlight alone, obviously)?

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...still waiting for this answer, by the way!
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
He left to give the LSH the spotlight, as you assumed.


It was S/LSH #258 and LSH #259, and the Legion fought the Psycho-Warrior. He could make you see your worst nightmare, and Superboy's was to discover how his loved ones died. He couldn't cope with the pain of knowing this information. Saturn Girl planted a post-hypnotic suggestion that he never return to the 30th century for his own good. Basically he remembers their adventures while he is in the 30th century but when he returns home to Smallville the details get fuzzy (to prevent his knowledge of the future from affecting his actions & behavior on present day activities). As long as he stayed in the 20th century, he wouldn't remember how they would die.
 

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Posted by reckless on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
One word of warning in case you do decide to pick them up. Avoid the Space Circus storyline. Conway and the Legion at an all time low.

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For some reason, I always have had a soft spot for the Space Circus issues. I know they are ridiculously cheesy, but having the Legionnaires undercover as circus stars gave a few good moments.

Somebody mentioned the development of Timber Wolf during this period. I really liked the take on him being very spartan and isolated in 30th century civilization. One of my disappointments with Levitz's run was that he completely abandoned this aspect of Timber Wolf's personality.
 

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Posted by Sketch Lad on :
 
Based on your original conditions, I'd say fugedaboudit. The only things that happened that stuck were Blok, and RJ as Cham's dad. There were some decent character moments, but not a lot.

The art was only okay. A handful of Perez covers were better than all of the era's interior pages. Staton and Janes were only okay, IMO. Ditko's stories were like novelties.

That said, I'm a completist. I have all the sequential issues from the Archives til today. I'm only missing guest apps here and there. It bugs me to not know the little things that the characters have been through, let alone major skirmeshes. So there you have 2 different answers, Lardy.
 

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Posted by googoomuck on :
 
Jimmy Janes art may have been good, but it suffered from atrocious inking up until his last few issues. IMHO they're not worth reprinting in a trade paperback much less an Archive.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
If you are considering collecting the issues from this time period, don't forget the "Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes" three issue mini-series that came out then also! I'd say it is a must even if you don't complete the pre-boot series.
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Jimmy Janes art may have been good, but it suffered from atrocious inking up until his last few issues. IMHO they're not worth reprinting in a trade paperback much less an Archive.

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I just finished reading the latest Essential Avengers and I get to the issue just before Giant-Size Avengers #4...I'm thinking who did the art, it's atrocious. It sorta looks like it was pencilled by George Tuska, who usually does a god workman-like job, but I can't really tell. I flip to the credits and, of course, it's inked by Frank Chiaramonte.
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 
I started reading LSH in French with the Grell issues, and LSH in English just after Earth War, so this is spot on when I started reading it.

The run wasn't stellar, but was certainly more interesting that about half the stuff we've had since Zero Hour. Art wasn't always great, but there were good stories... The mystery of Reflecto, the Darkman, the introduction of Blok (always had a soft spot for him).

To be honest, I had more pleasure re-reading those when I bought a full run of LSH 200 to 354 a few months ago (I had sold my entire LSH collection after Zero Hour and bought it again after the Lightning Saga)... Than I've had pleasure reading the Waid Legion (Shooter excluded)
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
It's interesting that so many people here came on board during this all in all underwhelming Conway run.

It's the same with me, the somewhat shortened German version of the Omega story was my first Legion book - and I loved it! it took me years to get all the issues of this time period, and I really can understand anyone who doesn't want to go through the trouble of hunting down the Psycho Warrior and Dr. Mayavale.

But: there are wonderful stories to be found there. The Starlin ones to start with (Murder most foul and Omega), obviously Earthwar before that and stories like "Beneath the streets lurk death" or "The planet that captured the Legion" which I remember fondly.

I also think that many issues would have been better if they would not have been drawn by Steve Ditko, who did some fill-ins back then which were just... alarming? Just imagine Dr. Mayavale being drawn by bondage specialist George Perez (who already did the wonderful cover!) instead of an uninspired Ditko... maybe the issue would not be what it is here on this board... imagine some little boy buying the issue because of the beautiful cover, and then, he opens it and... doh!

So all in all, many stories of that era are sub-par, but many of them due to the art. The issues done by Starlin, Jim Sherman (jummy!) and Jimmy Janes are certainly the better ones.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
My first Legion issue is from that era, it is where Dawnstar, Garth, Tinya, Blok (and maybe someone else?) go back to Smallville, and they are attacked by the Army then the Molecule Master (or something) and Tinya phases out and takes someone with her (forget who). Maybe not a steller time in Legion history, but I remember thinking that single issue was pretty exciting. Then many years later I got the end of the Reflecto story line and I was sooooo confused at what was going on.

I was always told to stay away from that period in Legion history (minus Earthwar) but I have picked up some of those issues for cheap and don't feel bad about that. So if I can get it cheap I'll pick them up (hey it's Legion and I'm still hoping someday I'll figure out the Reflecto storyline).
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I was initially exposed to a smattering of Levitz/Sherman issues, and loved them. By the times I was regularly getting Legion it was Conway/Staton, and I was largely underwhelmed; there were more "super spectacles" stories than gems. But there were enough gems and kernals that the era was not pointless: the League of Super-Assassins story, the healing of B-5 (corny, perhaps, but it read well when I was a kid), the Dark Man story, the induction of Blok, the death of Jo, and Reflecto stories all contained some value.

I disagree with those who praised Janes and dissed Ditko; I hold an opposite view. True, it was not Ditko in his prime, but to me even slightly-tired Ditko is still more worthwhile than overrated mediocrity.
 

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Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
 
I loved that reflecto/ultra boy/superboy storyline...that 2nd issue of the legion in smallville was horribly drawn..if you hate the lighthing saga in action art work ...you'll love it like it was perez compared to that issue.. but anyway...i liked when how pat broderick made the legionnaires look in the conclusion story. and it did make sense to me...but i was 11 years old at the time so... LOL.

Best line from the conclusion story 282... "hmmmmmmmmm i cant wait till he turns that ultra energy on me" - Phantom Girl
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I think people don't like the Ditko stories because its not what they expect from the Legion. Personally, I think he did a great job. Not his greatest comics for sure, and not in his prime, but like Kent said, I'd take it over overrated mediacrity anyday--and Legion fans have been subjected to that for sure.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Hm, it's interesting that there actually are people who are okay with those Ditko issues. To me, they always were among the most appalling comic book art I could imagine, right down there with Mister Rob Liefeld...

I really am astonished that there can be two opinions about that once in my life I thought something was crystal clear I can understand that there are different opinions about Gary Frank or Curt Swan or Keith Giffen or Chris Bachalo, whoever. But I really always had the feeling that nobody could like Ditkos Legion stuff...

I do not want to disrespect Mister Ditkos work on Spiderman and so on, but those Legion issues...

????
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
You just have to be more willing to accept Ditko's vastly different style. I don't think he took the scripts and decided "I'm going to just wing this one", which I think is what a cocaine addled Rob Liefield did many times in the 1980's and 1990's.

Then again, I think the people who enjoyed Superboy's Legion are loco, but that's just my opinion...
 

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Posted by Zero Kahn on :
 
I still think the Omega story is one of the best Legion stories ever. That story made me a lifelong Wildfire fan. That and I love it whenever Brainiac 5 goes totaly out of his mind.
 

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Posted by Invisible Man on :
 
Most of the Stuff I had then (German editions) is gone - only some warm, fuzzy feelings for this time period remain. But I'm determined to hunt down most of the issues - for the sheer fun of it (and the 70s weirdness of stuff like the space circus and the engineer).

Liked Best
Omega story arc SBOY & LSH 250-251
Dark Man LSH 269-271
absolute dreck, best to avoid:
the disgraceful defeat of Mordru in LSH 276
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Another German on this board? Invisible Man? Another one who came on board via "Die größten Superhelden" and so on ?
 

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Posted by Invisible Man on :
 
Yep, another fan of Blitzjunge and Sternenschwinge. Glorious days with Ehapa...

Greetings to Bamberg from Braunschweig
 

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Posted by tyrociscool on :
 
I have to agree with anyone who dislikes the Doctor Mayavale story. I also cannot stand the Intergalactic Circus storyline and that atrocious Kantuu story.

I think the main problem with most of the Post-Earthwar pre-Levitz run was that it was an ebb between two great batches of stories.

It always happens on long-running series.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Lardy, I bumped some pertinent threads on this era for you....

Check out your fellow posters' opinions on these threads...

"Saturn Girl is crumbling to DUST..."

"...haven't read "Space Circus"

"How did you betray Dr. Mayavale..."

and "The all-KANTUU thread".

Fun for all!
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
My advice is, if you're not a completist, forget this era ever existed. It sucked pretty hard in both art and stories, imho.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Except for the outrageously bad stories others have cited above, this era kept me entertained. There was some good character work on Wildfire, Timber Wolf, Brainy, Lighting Lad, Saturn Girl, Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl, and others.

The Omega story and its aftermath shouldn't be missed, nor should the Wildfire origin story, and the more I read the Reflecto arc, the more I like it. I still don't understand it, but I like it. It was sort of a swansong to the Silver Age.
 

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Posted by Frog King on :
 
I always liked the Dr. Mayavale and the Dark Man saga (LSH #268-271), as they were the story that introduced me to the legion. I was only a kid and the Shadow Lass Vs. Validus scene from issue 269 was for me breathtaking. That and I liked the art, too.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
So after letting this thread percolate for a while, I'm still undecided. At one point I was totally resolved to seek out the entire run, but I'm at a bit of an impasse. For the most part, the enthusiasts seem more nostalgic than anything else, but some cite enough memorable moments to make a case.

However, the "forgettable" votes were starting to come in rather more frequently the last page or so. And almost no one really went out and extolled that the era was a pivotal one for any fan to own and read. More and more cite only a few "can't miss" stories to pick up among the 40ish issues published.

So I'm near the point where I'm leaning toward picking and choosing which issues to buy and which to avoid from that period rather than completing the collection.

Is there anyone who can pull me back from the brink and convince me I must have them all?
 

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Posted by Sketch Lad on :
 
Why exactly would you not get them?
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Lardy:
I would suggest you set an adequate price-per-issue level, and only pick them up when you find them at that price, whether discounted at a con, or someone selling a lengthy run on eBay.

That way, you leave it to the fates as to whether the opportunity floats your way.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
The Dr. Mayavale issue alone will let you start getting 50% of the jokes on Legion World!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sketch Lad:
Why exactly would you not get them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
Lardy:
I would suggest you set an adequate price-per-issue level, and only pick them up when you find them at that price, whether discounted at a con, or someone selling a lengthy run on eBay.

That way, you leave it to the fates as to whether the opportunity floats your way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
The Dr. Mayavale issue alone will let you start getting 50% of the jokes on Legion World!

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See, Des is a good salesman!
 

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Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Lardy,

My opinion is that you NEED to get these issues, even if "nothing significant happened."

How often have you seen Legion Worlders refrence the Space Circus, Dr. Mayavale, the Dark Man, Captain Frakes, Conway Ditko, etc. etc. If you want a full-understanding of this groovy self-refrential clique, you need to have read these books.

Moreover, I submit that most of us here on Legion World were probably around 10-15 when those books were published, squarely within the golden age of comics fandom. We also were the last generation to get our Legion comics exclusively from the newsstands.

Reading these books will not only help you to better know that epoch of Legion history, it also, I think, may give you some insight into your fellow Legion Worlders.

I mean, I don't care what anyone says about "comics aren't just for kids," no comic book will ever be as good as the ones you read when you were 12.

Sure, today's Legion comics are technically better in almost every way to those published in the late 70s and early 80s. For that matter, so are the silver age books. But even though they have their faults, many of them, that period from Earth War to Great Darkness will always be MY Legion.
 

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Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
So I'm near the point where I'm leaning toward picking and choosing which issues to buy and which to avoid from that period rather than completing the collection.

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Well, fortunatly, this was an era when you could still pick up any given issue and get a more or less complete story. Although stories began to run more than an issue or two, they did not run on forever, as they do today. Even subplots got wrapped up pretty quickly, so you can pick and choose, it that is your final decision.
 

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Posted by Doctor Mayavale on :
 
Mayavale would like to add that purchasing and reading his previous encounters with the Legion may very well be important to appreciating his long-awaited promised return engagement with the team.

Mayavale bides his time.
 

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Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Well, FWIW, here are my thoughts on the individual issues, in question, if you are determined to cherry pick the era.

I always forget exactly when EarthWar ended. Seems to me it was S/LSH #243, but that #244-5 made up an epilogue, or sorts. I may be misremembering though. It's been more than 20 years since I've read some of these books.

This seems a natural place to start though [I'll grade each book on a scale of 1 to 10, skip it (1) to must buy (10)]:

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #247 (January 1979) GRADE: 8
"Savage Sanctuary!" (A good little Fatal Five story by Len Wein. One of his few Legion scripts, although he did edit for a brief spell, IIRC.)
"Celebration!" (Lightning Lad elected leader - I call that significant enought to warrant your attention)

Super Friends #17 (February 1979) GRADE: 2
"Trapped in Two Times!" (Time Trapper app., with one of many origins 'ol tattered robes would get over the years.)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #248 (February 1979) GRADE: 4
"Beneath the Streets Lurks ... Death!" (I remember thinking this was pretty "eh" at the time. Of course, as a young teen, I had not yet developed an appreciation for Station.)

Super Friends #18 (March 1979) GRADE: 1
"Manhunt in Time!" (Part 2 of above)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #249 (March 1979) GRADE: 5
"Capital Crimes of the Chemical Conqueror" (not much, as I recall)
"The Arctoraan Jewel Case" (Chameleon Boy was established as am amateur detective of sorts during the fugitive Ultra Boy tale in S.LSH #239. This solo story is one of the few that ever spotlighted that aspect of his persona, IIRC. Worth a look for that alone.)

[ April 03, 2008, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Portfolio Boy ]
 

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Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #250 (April 1979) GRADE: 9.5
"This Is the Day the Universe Dies!" (This and the next issue comprise the classic Omega story by Jim Starlin, working as Steve Apollo. I recall not being terribly impressed at the time, and that's probably because, although I did not know it then, the story was butchered down from its intended publication as a giant tabloid. That, as legend goes, is why Starlin removed his name from the book. I've always hoped DC would let him go back and re-do this as intended. Anyway, this book as a must have, given the luster it has taken on in Legion fandom. Also, Brainy Goes Bonkers is a classic Legion storyline that really gets it's first extended use here.)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #251 (May 1979) GRADE: 10
The Man Who Destroyed the Universe! (Part 2 of the above. More insane Brainy. The first app. of the Miricle Machine in more than a decade. The re-introduction of Matter-Eater Lad, who saves the day at the cost of his own sanity. This is the must have of the era.)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #252 (June 1979) GRADE: 5
"Postscript To Holocaust" (I don't actually recall much about this one, but it is a Dream Girl spotlight in an era when she got very little play. Worth it to see Conway's take on the character)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #253 (July 1979) GRADE: 10
"Night of the Super-Assassins! (First appearance of Blok. You gotta have it. Also, having missed out on Super-Rejects, Super-Assassins struck a cord with me at the time. I was always dissapointed that so few on the team ever made repeat appearances. Actually, Blok was my least favorite of the group, truth to be known)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #254 (August 1979) GRADE: 9
"A Madman Shall Lead Them" (Part 2 of the above. Brainy really freaked me out in this issue, at the time. This also was, IIRC, the last appearance of the Subs before Giffin got his hands on them and made them laughing stocks. Here, they are still played straight.)

The Best Of DC #1 (September/October 1979) GRADE: 0
Reprints "The Death of Superman!" from Superman v1 #149. As a digest, hard to find and expensive to boot. Skip it. There are other places to get this early crossover appearance)

DC Comics Presents #13 (September 1979) GRADE: 7
"To Live In Peace -- Nevermore! (Back before the main DCU had Khunds and Durlans and Coluans running all over the place, a Legion cross-over was a rare and special treat. This is worth it for that alone. Plus, I always like Dillin's art.)

World Of Krypton v1 #3 (September 1979) GRADE: 1
"The Last Days of Krypton" (A minor Mon-El appearance, notable only becasue it'd been years since anyone had rembered about Mon-El in the 20th century Phantom Zone)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #255 (September 1979) GRADE: 4
"The Super-Spectacles Swipe!" (I remember this as a goofy story, but it is the only time I can remember when the Legion when back in time to visit pre-explosion Krypton. You'd have thought they'd have been going back to recruit Kryptonians every time the universe was in danger.)

DC Comics Presents #14 (October 1979) GRADE: 7
"Judge, Jury ... And No Justice!" (Part 2 of above, both of which are notable for the introduction of Pete Ross as an adult, as well as the first app. of his son.)


DC Special Series #19 (Fall 1979) GRADE: 1
Reprints "Brotherly Hate" from Superboy v1 #172. (I think the only other place to get this is in one of the last Archives. IIRC, it had Tuska art. Interesting to see his take on the Legion. It is, as you may guess from the title, a Ranzz sibling story)

Action Comics #500 (October 1979) GRADE: 3
"The Life Story of Superman" (Legion statuettes appear, so it's not much of a cross-over, but this will whet your appatite for ACTION #1,000 coming up in a few years.)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #256 (October 1979) GRADE: 4
"This Is Your Life -- And Death, Brainiac 5!" (More fun with insane Brainy)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #257 (November 1979) GRADE: 4
"Who Stole the Legion?" (ummm. . . I don't recall.)
"Once A Legionnaire ... !" (A Bouncing Boy/Dou Damsel spotlight, albeit with Ditko art. Still a rare treat in those days)

Superboy and the Legion Of Super-Heroes #258 (December 1979) GRADE: 9
"The Mind-Attack of the Psycho-Warrior!" (Although the Psycho-Warrior has been much maligned, I remember thinking at the time that my fav. book was getting back on track after a few not best-ever issues. Of course, this was the last of the series.)

Legion of Super-Heroes v2 #259 (January 1980) GRADE: 10
"Psycho War" (As others have said, first Legion title of new material, Superboy leaves the team. You should own it.)

The New Adventures Of Superboy #1 (January 1980) GRADE: 3
"35 Years of Superboy" (Text feature mentions Legion. I never really warmed to this title, although I like it a lot more now than I did then. It's worth owning)

Legion of Super-Heroes v2 #260 (February 1980) GRADE: 5
"Come to the Circus and Die!" (All I remember was still being so flush with excitment that the Legion finally had it's own title, I actually thought the space circus rocked!)

DC Special Blue Ribbon Digest #1 (March/April 1980) GRADE: 0
Reprints a buch of stuff you're better off to get in the Archives, or the Showcase books, inlcuding, Adventure Comics #247, #306, #349, #352 and #353)

DC Special Series #21 (Spring 1980) GRADE: 8
"Star Light, Star Bright... Farthest Star I See Tonight!" (A lot of fans remember this story fondly. Worth owning.)

Legion of Super-Heroes v2 #261 (March 1980) GRADE: 5
"Space Circus of Death!" (Part 1 of above)
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Kudos to Portfolio Boy for his comprehensive reviews of this era. I'm enjoying reading and reliving the memories!

My own take on the era is based on what sticks with me after all this time. I recall feeling disappointed in almost everything up until the Reflecto story (which I actually enjoyed). The book seemed to be marking time with story lines that never went anywhere and artwork that was very disappointing after the likes of Cockrum, Grell, and Sherman (when he wasn't being inked by Staton or whomever). And even though I felt that the Legion had graduated from being Superboy's sidekicks, the book really missed having him as the central character. None of the others were developed enough during this period to carry the book.

There were attempts at starting Marvel-style continuing stories, such as half the team going off to help Brande rebuild his fortune and Timber Wolf's increasing alienation from society, but they seemed lost in the necessity to do something with every Legionnaire every few issues.

For me, the highlights of that era include the much-praised Starlin finale, Brainy's recovery from insanity (yes, it was a corny story, but it showed how much the Legionnaires cared about each other and the lengths they would go to in order to help one of their own), and the Reflecto story, which, whatever its faults, represented a major arc that involved the entire Legion and saw two significant changes (i.e., the return of both Superboy and Ultra Boy, who was believed dead). It also featured Grimbor and the Molecule Master, IIRC, the latter being a villain who was used to great effect in SUPERBOY # 201.

There's also a story in which Brainy is called to account for the murder of Ayn Ryd (sp?), back in # 239. I felt at the time that the ending of the story cheated by passing the murder off to Pulsar Stargrave, and, in retrospect, it's probably for the best, but I liked the idea of a hero screwing up so big that there would be legal consequences. (Levitz would pursue this idea to greater effect with Cham's invasion of Khundia.)

So, for me, the era is worth pursuing mainly for completists, which means, Lardy, that you'd be better off picking and choosing what seems most appealing to you.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Valid points, HWW...but I'm enjoying PB's capsule reviews so much, that I'm leaning the other way! Keep 'em comin' if you have time, PB!
 

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Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Action Comics #506 (April 1980) GRADE: 2
"The Children's Exodus From Earth!" (Skip it. It's just an A/R book wherein Superman meets Superboy, who's en route to a Legion meeting, while in the time stream. It's only really notable in that this is one of the few times this type of thing every happened. As often as Kal-el went skipping across the eras, you'd think he'd have been tripping over himself all the time.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #262 (April 1980) GRADE: 6
"The Planet That Captured the Legion" (Legionnaires help Brande built starts, IIRC. You know how Overstreet has taken to pointing out any pre-FF#1 character resembling a Marvel hero in the slightest way, promoting it as a "try-out?" Well, I've always thought of this book as a Dr. Mayavale tryout. But the real reason to get this, IMHO, is that it's the last example of Jim Sherman art on the Legion.)

The New Adventures Of Superboy #4/ (April 1980) GRADE: 0
Just a reference to Mon-El in a text feature.

Legion of Super-Heroes #263 (May 1980) GRADE: 5
"Day of Judgment" (The debut of the much-maligned Jimmy Janes on the Legion. Janes, more than Conway, I think, typifies this era for me. I didn't care for his art much at the time, but having seen some of his Legion era pencils in recent years, I now think he was a victim of bad inking. This and the next three issues represent about half of Tyroc's total appearances, so it's worth it for that. Also, we are introduced to many Legion family members, most never seen again.)

Green Lantern #128, Super Friends #32and Warlord v1 #33 (all May 1980) GRADE: 0
"Fact File number 1" text feature recounts the history of Lana'a Lang's Insect Queen persona. Skip these three and instead try and find out for us if the feature appeared in any other DC books this month. As an aside, does anyone remember if there ever was a "Fact File number 2?")

Legion of Super-Heroes #264 (June 1980) GRADE: 4
"Dagon's Cavern of Doom!" (Dagon was dumb. I kept expecting him to be Absorbency Boy under that helmet. Still, it's Tyroc.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #265/ (July 1980) GRADE: 4
"The Brigadoon Syndrome!" (Or, at least, it was Tyroc. This issue gives him a das boot from the Legion until well into TMK, some 12 years later. I remember being really confused at the time, having no idea what the hell a "Brigadoon" was supposed to be.)

The Best of DC #6 (August 1980) GRADE: 0
(Skip it, there are cheaper places to get a reprint of Superboy #117)

Legion of Super-Heroes #266 (August 1980) GRADE: 6
"Kantuu" (A nice Bouncing Boy/ Duo Damsel appearance. If I recall correctly, it was this issue, and the next, that established the couple as Legion Academy instructors.)

DC Comics Presents #25 (September 1980) GRADE: 1
"Judgment Night" (A rare Levitz script on the Legion between his two regular writing stints on the book. This hasn't got much to do with the Legion, though, except that it feature's Pete Ross' son and recalls the Legion's earlier appearance in this book.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #267 (September 1980) GRADE: 5
"To Bottle A Genie!" (Part 2 of the above story with Chuck and Lu.)
"The Grounded Legionnaires" (I don't remember anything about this backup, honestly.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #268 (October 1980) GRADE: -3
"Life After Life After Life" (Here it is, baby! The one the only Dr. Mayavale. This is the Legion's own Plan 9 from Outer Space, so bad it's classic. If you get no other book from this era, this is the one you've got to have.!)

Legion of Super-Heroes #269 (November 1980) GRADE: 4
"Who Shall Name the Dark Man?" (Apart from Dr. Mayavale, when fans recall this era, the most often mention two other story lines, the Reflecto debut and this, the Dark Man saga. Funny, because this really was kind of a mess, if I remember right.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #270 (December 1980) GRADE: 5
"Who Is the Dark Man?" (Although the story quickly went south, the score goes up because Blok returns. At least I think he does. He may not have come back until the next issue. Having the Dark Man behind the Super-Assassins never made a lot of sense to me.)

Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes #1 (January 1981) GRADE: 9
"The Past... Seen Darkly" (A must have. Despite it's many flaws, this was the first comprehensive telling of Legion chronology. It set a lot of fan speculation into canon and established time lines all future versions of the Legion would follow, to at least some degree. It was a sort of dry run for DC's many Who's Who books. Also, it is historically significant as only the second or third mini-series, ever. You need to have this mini series.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #271 (January 1981) GRADE: 5
"What Is the Dark Man?" (More fun with Blok)

DC Special Series #23 (February 1981) GRADE: 1
(reprints the Composite Superman story from World’s Finest Comics #142, which has a Legion cameo. Also another expensive, hard to find digest, I give this one a slightly higher grade because it has not been reprinted as often, IIRC.)

Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes #2 (February 1981) GRADE: 9
"R. J. Brande Is Dying!!" (What!? One of the Legionnaire's is Brande's child? Which one can it be? You'll never guess. I certainly didn't.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #272 (February 1981) GRADE: 7
"The Secret Origin of Blok!" Blok's origin isn't much, but this issue introduces Crystal Kid, Lamprey and Nightwind. It also firmly established Wildfire's role as trainer of new heroes, which was made much use of in later comics. This issue was double-sized, thanks to a Dial H for Hero insert, which adds to the fun.)


Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes #3 (March 1981) GRADE: 9
"Revelation!" (Although it struck me as profoundly stupid at the time, establishing Cham as Brande's son would lead to some of my favorite Legion comics of all time. Buy it.)

Legion of Super-Heroes #273 (March 1981) GRADE: 5
[i]"A Murderer -- Among Us?"[i] (Fairly forgettable, in part because you need S/LSH #239 to know what's going on, Still, it's significant because it reintroduces Marte Allon after nearly 15 years and makes her President of Earth.)

[ April 06, 2008, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Portfolio Boy ]
 

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Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
What about the Secrets of the Legion mini-series?

that was a classic not just for the LSH but comics in general
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
This run is largely drek. Don't bother hunting it down.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
You want to know what happened?


Gerry Conway happened...


Gerry Conway singlehandedly nearly killed the comics industry in the mid 70's....dude had one good run on a comic in his entire career(Amazing Spiderman) and somehow parlayed that into an EICship at Marvel and a writing tenure on virtually every mainstream character and team in comics in the seventies.


And he embodied the term hack!


I am an unabashed fan of Superboy and the Legion, but even I will concede the point that that era would have had a better chance of succeeding if Conway hadn't been the guy that did the bulk of the writing.
 

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Posted by Future on :
 
I actually read many of these issues for the first time in the last month, Lardy. I'm going to probably support the idea to pick and choose if you get them at all.

On the one hand, it was fun to read stories like the Dark Man and Reflecto for the first time after vaguely knowing about what happened for 15 years. But by the end of those tales, I wasn't excited for the next issue like I was after reading Great Darkness Saga or even the Omen storyline for the first time.

I'm glad I read them to satisfy my curiousity, but probably won't give them a re-read anytime soon. Some of the art was jarring and the writing/character's actions were hokey in places. A lot of the stories really were self-contained, and while there was continuity not a lot of Legionnaires progressed in any way during this time.
 

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Posted by Askanipsion on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Omni Craig:


"Minuses": Steve Ditko artwork. Bleah!! (not good for Legion, he drew both the Romdur and Mayavale issues, contributing to my contempt for both stories). Gerry Conway's scripts were weak.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimgallagher:
It's a wonder they didn't reboot the Legion back then.

---

Continuity was so entrenched at both Marvel and DC back then that rebooting was unthinkable.

Oh, for the good old days.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Seeing how this topic has really had legs for a while now (probably longest time spent on the front page with more responses than any LSH topic I've ever started), I'm beginning to think I may have hit on something. Was this period the low point for the "classic" Legion?

Yes, I know TMK was the most controversial era before the Zero Hour reboot with its avid lovers and diehard haters, but you could argue that with its many fierce proponents (like myself), it might at least rank above the era being discussed her. I mean would anyone say the era between Earth War and Levitz/Giffen was their very favorite?

I know many would probably take this era over either reboot, but the question remains: Preboot, was this the most forgettable era of the Legion?
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
For me, the "most forgettable era of the [preboot] Legion" was the ACTION run. Very little was done with the series at that time, as it was restricted to a backup slot and marked time until its (temporary) cancellation. Even the villains (Uli Algor, Yark Althu) were not memorable.

In comparison, the late '70s/early '80s period at least attempted to make progress. Some major events happened, and some new story ideas were tried, so it wasn't a total failure.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Does the Action run really count as a full era, HWW? To me, it was an attempt to keep the LSH alive during a dark time, and I'd either put it as a coda to the late Adventure run or as a preamble to their return in Superboy. The Action run was completed in one Archive. You'd probably need 4 or 5 to complete the era discussed here.

[ April 10, 2008, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Well, it depends on how you define "era," doesn't it?

The ACTION run is sufficiently different in its tone and the types of stories it told that I wouldn't consider it to be merely an appendage to the ADVENTURE run. Your mileage may vary.

For that matter, the period between the Earth War and Levitz's return is not a unified period, but a collection of different ones under different creators. If one takes all of the out-of-series stories and SECRETS into account (as Portfolio Boy does), then one might argue that it's too long and unwieldy to be an era.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
True, but I think it the period in this era counts as an era because of its aimlessness and heavy Conway influence. Certainly, it was a long period where some major creators left (Levitz, Grell, Sherman) and the LSH mostly stayed in a holding pattern until someone else took over who had an idea of what to do with it. Kinda like the Action run, actually!

Seems like I've heard a lot of stories where creators didn't want to work on the title during this time but did so to make a buck until something better came along. I don't think that happened as much before or especially after this era. Seems like since then, we've had a series of creators who really wanted to do the title, for better or for worse.

But if you want to count Action as its own era, I can respect that, though I disagree. I'd really group it with the Superboy/Cockrum/Bates run myself.

[ April 10, 2008, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I agree with HWW that the Action run counts as its own era, as I generally don’t see it as part of the Adventure Era (or a coda for it). I didn’t even realize for years that it came so soon after Adventure when I first read those stories in the Archives because the tone of the series felt so different.

Personally, I’m not sure either qualifies as the ‘worst era’ of Legion preboot history, since neither (to me) has ever been bad enough where I simply don’t want to read the comics when I reread the entire thing. However, I’d say the Conway issues are probably a low point, though like HHW says, stories during this era are kind of peppered via tone, creator, and other criteria.

Others may have a different opinion, but to me, there’s no real major low point during the preboot. Then again, I was 8 years old when TMK #1 came out, so I view the entire preboot differently from someone who lived from era to era.
 

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Posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester on :
 
I actually love the Action run, so I don't know what you guys are talking about. While certainly the constraints of the run prevented having really epic storylines, there's a lot of great character pieces during that era.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I agree with EDE that the Action issues had some charming moments and character development. Generally, it seems those backups are looked at fondly by most people I've seen talk about them. Much less so with this 'tween' era.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I didn't explicitly say so in my post but I love the Action issues too. Its my favorite archive besides #1 & #2. Probably because it has that transition feel to it in tone.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I enjoyed some of the character stories in the ACTION run, particularly the Violet/Tenz "date" and Brin's drug addiction. Those were both cutting edge stories for the time; alas, they were the exception. Where the ACTION run failed, in my opinion, was in trying to do traditional super-hero stories with villains. There just wasn't enough space to develop those stories and characters.

Lardy, I think the ACTION run has even less in common with the Bates/Cockrum/Grell period than it does with the ADVENTURE issues. Bates, et.al., re-defined and re-energized the Legion after the series had spent the previous few years treading water.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I guess I just don't like there to be like a zillion mini-eras, I guess, especially when the Legion went through a long period without a consistent writer between Bates and when Levitz returned with Giff. The only large body of work done by one writer was Conway, and it certainly wasn't particularly well-written from what I've read and what I'd expect given his track record.

How many eras would you name starting with the Legion's earliest appearances up until the beginning of Levitz's return in the 280s?
 

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Posted by doublechinner on :
 
I think it's worth quoting Theodore Sturgeon here. When some said to him: "Why do you write science fiction? 90% of it is crap," Sturgeon replied, "90% of everything is crap." There were truly forgetable Legion stories between Earth War and Great Darkness, but that has ever been so. You also had Omega/Crazy Brainy, The League of Super Assassins and the Dark Man, Brainy's recovery, Superboy's tearful departure, and space pirates (Arrrr...sprock). Any run that included in it a super hero named Matter Eater Lad coming out of retirement to eat an all-powerful device called the Miracle Machine in order to defeat an unstoppable creature created by a crazy super-genius, and going cosmic crazy in the process, THAT'S GREAT COMICS, MAN!
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I'll have to give that question some thought, Lardy.

One of the problems, as I suggested earlier, is that "era" can be defined in different ways. Dictionary.com, for example, lists six different meanings for the word; the first five meanings can all apply to the Legion. The number of eras and dividing points for those eras could therefore vary depending on which definition one prefers.

How do you define "era," Lardy?
 

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Posted by Clive on :
 
{EDIT: Lardy here in an Alt-ID, by the way! }

I would say (without looking it up) for comics I'd define it as a significant period in a long-running comic character or group's history that differs significantly from what came before or after it, often because of a creative, stylistic, structural or storytelling change.

With the Legion, for example, I'd begin with the Early Adventure era and start the second era around when Shooter came on. I'd separate it because Shooter helped the Legion begin to evolve by telling more sophisticated stories and bringing out some of the concept's potential to the next level. I'd call it the Late Adventure/Shooter Era.

Beyond that I'm not entirely sure how I'd break it down between Late Adventure/Shooter and Levitz/ Giffen because I'm not overly knowledgeable about that era. But I might break it into either two or, likely, three eras if pressed with the latter comprising all or most of the era discussed in this thread.

It's not an exact science, but I tend not to make an era too short unless it was that significant on its own.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
I don't really consider all that run between EarthWar and GDS as one era...

I think Conway era stands alone as the alltime low point in all of Legion history.


When Conway was writing the book IIRC, he was writing about 5-6 other monthly titles on top of the Legion including the JLA. He was burnt out from years of prolific writing at both companies, he was overtaxed, he wasn't really into the Legion, and all of these things showed in his work.

He created some decent characters and wrote a couple of passable arcs but basically much of it was just trash being thrown on paper churned out in the greatest volume possible to collect a paycheck.

I would not insult the creators that worked with him, nor the writers that immediately preceded or followed him by lumping their work with his...the underwhelming impact of his run does actually have a tangible negative impact on their work, and that's a pretty amazing achivement if you think about it.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
I pretty much break eras down by writer as they tend to have the most impact on the focus of the book. Sometimes they can be paired with an artist, especially if the artist was a co-plotter as Giffen was...but basically I go by the writer.


I don't really consider the Early Adventure Era as all one era...Binder's stuff was pretty horrible and Edmund Hamilton and Jerry Siegel OTOH are vastly under-rated, particularly in the area of character creation. They created most of the characters we all love to this day.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
LardLad...

The 5YG is a hundred times better than Conway's run...


It's kinda like TMK were given a car with a blown engine and only 3 tires and asked to win the Indy 500 with it. They poured their hearts into winning that race...but they were not given a car capable of winning it.


Gerry Conway OTOH was given a cutting edge high performance vehicle with a well tuned engine and 4 excellent tires in perfect condition...and not only did he not run a competitive race, he barely got the car started.


Any writer that has written the book in the past 20 years, had they been given the Legion at the point Conway got it, would have turned in what would probably be considered all time classic Legion stuff compared to what Conway put out....just based effort and caring about the book.


His Legion run was a total clock punching hackjob...

It really isn't fair that he got the book at that point in time while most of the creators that have truly loved this book, which is most of them over the past 20 years, have been given the book under backbreaking editorial constraints and corporate mandates.

[ April 11, 2008, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Read the Dr. Maylava (or whatever) story last night, it wasn't till I read this thread that I realized what I had (I have heard it referenced but it never clicked). It seems that I have all the bad and none of the 'good' from this era. I do have the Darkman saga (also read last night, enjoyable) but only the very end of Reflecto and none of the Super Assasins. Just my luck, you know.

Some of this is painful, but like I said, the Darkman is a pretty solid tale (even if some of the dialouge is cringe-worthy) and it is always cool to see the Fatal Five. Plus I thought Light Lass turning the gravity off on the entire ship was really cool, as I have never seen her use her powers on something that big until WaK (of course there are MASSIVE holes in my collection).

Of course, being someone who has come late to the show, original legion is original Legion to me so I'm happy to have what I can get and enjoy anything that is a pretty decent read and doesn't dump on the characters.

However, as good as the Legion was (supposedly, as I only have a few issues prior to this period) before this I could see why fans reading it in chornological order or as it came out would be HORRIFIED by the quality level of this 'era.'

I don't think this is anyone's favorite era, but that doesn't mean there aren't some diamonds in the rough, just don't pay too much for it or you will hate yourself later.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Superboy:
LardLad...

The 5YG is a hundred times better than Conway's run...

---

Hey, I loved 5YG--I just used it to compare with the era in question because it is probably easily the most polarizing era of the preboot Legion and thought it a likely contender for least favorite preboot era vs. the other for that reason. Personally, Levitz's entire run spanning 286ish thru all of V3 is probably tied for my absolute favorite with 5YG.

I guess you could call Conway's stuff the "Conway era", but to me the whole run we're discussing seemed like filler (with the exceptions of a few good-to-passable stories) between one good era and a great one.

And you are quite right, if someone passionate about the Legion (read: not Conway) got the job, there was no limit to the what could've been done during those years--probably the equivalent of what Claremont did with the X-Men! It could've dwarfed what Levitz eventually did, especially considering the crushing constraints Levitz more and more had to be bound by. Guess we'll never know...
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clive:
{EDIT: Lardy here in an Alt-ID, by the way! }

I would say (without looking it up) for comics I'd define it as a significant period in a long-running comic character or group's history that differs significantly from what came before or after it, often because of a creative, stylistic, structural or storytelling change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'd start the Late Adventure Era with #340.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
As for Levitz 2 (VIII), part of me wants to make it one long era through the end of Vol. 3, but I'd probably split it in two with IX starting right after the LSV War (VIII would include the original "Tales" stories) because of the split from Giffen's influence. And, really, the death of Karate Kid was the first Legionnaire death in quite some time. Certainly, his death was a harbinger of things to come.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry:
1. Adventure Era - pre-Adventure/ Adventure/Action
2. Disco Era - Cockrum redesign through Reflecto
3. Levitz Era - LSH #236 through Magic Wars
4. 5YL - LSH v4, Number 1 through Zero Hour
5. Archie Era - Reboot until DnA
6. Late Reboot - First DnA issue through the end of the Legion
7. 3boot - WaK, Bedard and Calero, and S&M
7a. Lightning Saga

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

---

Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'd start the Late Adventure Era with #340.

---

Why?

ADV. # 340 marks the introduction of Computo and the death of Triplicate Girl's third self, but is this any more significant than, say, the first appearance of the Time Trapper or Lightning Lad losing an arm?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
And given that breakdown, would IV still be your least favorite/most forgettable?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester:
I assume that Curt Swan's art is the relevant change googoomuck has in mind. Though the change in writers a half-year later seems to me much more significant a break.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester:
I assume that Curt Swan's art is the relevant change googoomuck has in mind. Though the change in writers a half-year later seems to me much more significant a break.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry:
1. Adventure Era - pre-Adventure/ Adventure/Action
2. Disco Era - Cockrum redesign through Reflecto
3. Levitz Era - LSH #236 through Magic Wars
4. 5YL - LSH v4, Number 1 through Zero Hour
5. Archie Era - Reboot until DnA
6. Late Reboot - First DnA issue through the end of the Legion
7. 3boot - WaK, Bedard and Calero, and S&M
7a. Lightning Saga

---

That's certainly a valid paradigm, Jerry, though I'm sure you mean LSH # 286 instead of # 236.

Because of the length of the preboot and its unified timeline, I preferred to keep it separate from later incarnations of the Legion, but there are equally valid reasons to include them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester:

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

---

Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'd start the Late Adventure Era with #340.

---

Why?

ADV. # 340 marks the introduction of Computo and the death of Triplicate Girl's third self, but is this any more significant than, say, the first appearance of the Time Trapper or Lightning Lad losing an arm?

---

I assume that Curt Swan's art is the relevant change googoomuck has in mind. Though the change in writers a half-year later seems to me much more significant a break.

---

Actually my thought was the 2 part introduction of Computo followed by Starboy being being expelled and the Super Stalag of Space 2 parter. I feel that the story telling in those issues was better than it had been before. To quote the forward to LSH Archives Vol 5, "#340-349, the beginnings of the Legion's first Great Era."
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
{7 pages--Groovy }

goooomuck cites a good quote to back up where he would start Late Adventure. Of course, part of the purpose of the Forward is to hype the contents of what you've just bought...

Overall, I'd probably back up HWW's assertion that it should start with Shooter. I'm feeling the Death of Triplicate Girl/Computo angle goog is shilling, but: a) the death was really downplayed at the time and the deeper ramifications only delved into years later and b) Shooter is such a rockstar with Legion fandom and his first run so rife with growth for the Legion, it seems only appropriate to begin this era with his debut.

I mean, are there any two writers more celebrated in Legion fandom than Shooter and Levitz? Think about it!

Also, Jerry's list definitely has some appeal to me, but it just somehow feels wrong to break all of the preboot into just 4 eras!

So...in an effort to get back on topic (I'm seeing a need for a new topic spin-off ), if one accepts mine and HWW's combined era breakdown, where does VII (mostly comprising the material from this topic) rank for you in the preboot? HWW says it is second-worst/most forgettable, while Jerry says it ranks well above XI (late 5YL). Remember, we're only comparing preboot eras here, not either reboots or their eras.

From what I've seen and read myself, I'd definitely put VII at the bottom. Second-worst is IV which spans the backup era in Action and Superboy.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Okay, I'm not using Roman Numerals because I have a hard enough time keeping things straight as it is.

I have a lot of the "dark era" because it is cheap. Some of it is dreck (the monster under the sewers, ugh) some of it is good (Darkman through space pirates and Reflecto, which wasn't that great but had some good twists even if the ending was a bit pat and Grimbor's chains were such a stupid idea).

That said, low point for me is the 5YL Legion, as I do not even associate it with the original Leigon in my mind. So if I don't include that then I say the end of Levitz's run is the lowpoint for me, as you can see the Legion begining to fall apart, something that, even though Conways' plots were bland and unispired, you did not see the Legion do under his pen.

To me most of those Legion stories (post-Earth War pre-Levitz II) are stagnation, nothing really added to the mythos but nothing really taen away, they are just bland and uninteresting.

To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.

---

I actually did like the first part of 5YL, a lot, but I know what you're talking about.

I swear, though, a good writer could have fixed it up. There was no need for 'End of an Era'. It totally could have been fixed.

---

Sounds like another potential spin-off topic!

Actually, I've had a topic similar to that before. One theory is that both Legions (adult and young) should've been merged into one (leaving no duplicates) somehow, or the older version could have left as the new Omega Men as was apparently being considered, leaving the Legionnaires as THE Legion.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.

---

I actually did like the first part of 5YL, a lot, but I know what you're talking about.

I swear, though, a good writer could have fixed it up. There was no need for 'End of an Era'. It totally could have been fixed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
HWW says [Era VII] is second-worst/most forgettable [. . .]

---

I don't mean to split hairs, but this isn't quite what I meant. To me, "worst" is different from "most forgettable."

For me, the worst period in Legion history was the early 5YL period (early Era X, by our breakdown). This was the era in which Giffen took the Legion's optimistic future, gutted it, and tried to tell his own version of WATCHMEN. On top of that, DC gutted the Legion again by throwing out all references to Superboy and redacting the Legion's history accordingly. The realization that the Legion I read about was no longer the "real" or accepted LSH prompted me to drop the series for the first time after 17 years.

Years later, I warmed up to 5YL and its adult versions of the Legionnaires, but I'm still not happy about the redaction of Legion history, even though it resulted in interesting additions such as Laurel and Kent. You might say that early Era X is memorable to me, but not in a good way.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
And, congratulations, Lardy, on Page 8!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
And, congratulations, Lardy, on Page 8!

---

Yay! I feel loved!

Yes, I can see the difference between "worst" and "most forgettable" from that perspective. Though, for me, they are both synonomous as they pertain to the Legion.

So to take this further, HWW, would you say that even though 5YL was bad for the reasons you cite, that the 5YL era should be checked out by anyone who wants to bone up on Legion history because it's a significant era by the "unforgettable" standard?

An example of this might be, say, a longtime Legion fan who left during Conway's run and is now curious with the 50th anniversary about what he had missed. I'd wager you'd recommend the long Levitz run. But would you recommend he check out 5YL on the basis that a lot of significant things happened and that there was an "ending" to that LSH's story?

And if another fan followed Cockrum to the X-Men, leaving the Legion behind and never looking back 'til the 50th, would you advise her to check out the era this topic is about (our VII) or skip to Levitz?

(Note: this isn't entirely hypothetical, if you think about it, as some lapsed fans may approach the Legion World table at San Diego with these kinds of questions, and they could easily buy scads of the comics in question at the dealer tables on LWers' recommendations!)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.

---

I actually did like the first part of 5YL, a lot, but I know what you're talking about.

I swear, though, a good writer could have fixed it up. There was no need for 'End of an Era'. It totally could have been fixed.

---

Actually, what I would have done is this...

As v.4 approached #63, I'd have wrapped up loose ends and unveiled a time-disruption story (nothing so over the top as ZH or that Mordru/Glorith bit).

At the end of v.4 #63, Kent, Kono, and any other 1990s characters worth continuing would go back in time, and arrive at the end of the Magic Wars.

v.4 #64 would have picked up thereafter, being a sort of combo v.3 and v.4 #64, with the future members out to prevent the entire collapse/Dominion takeover.

A villain or two could also have traveled back to try to thwart them, while they attempt to prove to the Levitz Legion who they really are (some doubt by the Levitz Legion would make it interesting).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Kent, that's actually, the best idea I've heard yet about how to fix everything without rebooting! Bravo!

Yes, it would've been a kind of reboot in its own way, but 5YL still would have "happened", you know, and we'd still have those displaced members with the LSH to give the era some permanence.

One wrinkle I'd add is that the lineup from the end of Magic Wars would now include Laurel because she was "always" part of the team! So even though Laurel died in the future, she's still alive.

I'd have this "fix the future" storyline last about a year, maybe? And then, a new beginning where some of the Legionnaires retire and most of the 5YG characters stay with the group. Brave New World, anyone?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
So to take this further, HWW, would you say that even though 5YL was bad for the reasons you cite, that the 5YL era should be checked out by anyone who wants to bone up on Legion history because it's a significant era by the "unforgettable" standard?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I saw 5YL as the Legion overcoming their most serious setback - all through 1958-1989, they almost always had government backing, adequate funds/resources and public support; taking away some/most of that, bouncing back from forced disintegration, was a fresh challenge this Legion overcame. The only way to "top" GDS was to find a more intrinsic challenge; you can't keep out-Darkseiding Darkseid.

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Great, great analysis. You put into words something I've only really ever 'sensed'.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
I like Kent's suggestion as it makes sense to me. Not having read many 5YL stories I don't know how the 'fix' would have appealed to fans of that era.

As for why I think the 5YL gap lead to the destruction of the Legion, I'll provide a more in depth response soon, but bascially I did not see the future as optomistic (as I think a Legion future should be) but also the Legion quits, and the Legion should never quit.

Now correct me if I'm wrong (because I could be and then I would feel like a big idiot) but the Leigon gives up and disbands somewhere between Magic Wars and the start of volume 4 (or whatever it is). It's called the Black Dawn or something.

To me the Legion would never quit, they have been through too much and have lost too many to simply ignore their sacrifices and go home. So much of what occurs in the 5YL Legion (that I've read which is VERY little) seems to steam from the fact that the Legion disbanded and I just don't see the Legion disbanding. These are the ones who faced Darkseid, Mordru and a thousand other threats, Long Live the Legion is their battle cry. I just can't equate THAT Legion with a Legion who would give up, regardless of it they have money, government support or public adoration.

I would love to see the Legion grow naturally, I find the idea of Khund Legionnaires simply awesome, get rid of the member limit rule, let the Legion really expand into the galaxy, have members (the older members) drift in and out as they feel (do they spend time with family or with Legion) but NEVER have the Legion quit, never let them forget what they stand for and their brave friends who have died doing what is right.

Again, maybe somewhere along the way I was misinformed and the Legion never disbanded and the Legionnaires never simply went home in defeat, and if that is the case please let me know what happened and maybe I can look at the 5YL Legion with different eyes, but to me it will always be tainted with giving up and giving in and that dramatically changes who the Legion is.

It's fine if they come back from really bad times (as all heroes do) but it is hard to care as much if they gave up to begin with. Quick tangent, I'll never look at Peter Parker the same again, they can tell great stories about him, but to the taint of his decision in OMD will always be with him and I have a hard time caring as much/or respecting a character who would rather be tied to his mother figure's apron strings than grow up and be a man. The Legion having quit presents a similar taint.

Which is why I think Kent's fix would work, in that the new characters could and stop that taint from entering into the Legion AND you could still get to see the Legion grow and expand.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
The disintigration/disbanding of the Legion did occur off-camera, due to secret pressures of Earthgov/the Dominators, the economic collapse of the UP, the Braal/Imsk war, and other factors. Not just Black Dawn.

While it would be easy to find a way to keep a Legion around regardless, I was impressed with the risk, shaking up the entire formula, to show a stronger family that could overcome all obstacles.

To me, the disbanding made sense; aver Conspiracy (v3 46-50), there really was a sense that some Legionnaires were moving on; it really felt like the old gang was fraying at the edges. Rokk and Garth were retired, Brainy, Mysa, Thom, Nura Blok and Shady were off doing their own things, Mon was dying, Kal was dead, Quis was gone, Lu lost another body... it just seemed that despite all the Legion's victories and accomplishments, so many of the core group were moving on.

That happens in real life. Those who were members since the Silver Age had essentially served the team for 16 years of their lives, from early-mid-teens to 30ish. It's rare that anyone in life commits to something that age and remains committed for so long; the urge to do other things, to have families, or to go "solo" and prove oneself without longtime peers creeps in.

16 years ofd service is hardly quitting; many of those who had been anchors of the Legion had new responsibilities. Some ran planets, others ran families and/or businesses. Some continued the Legion traditions as best they could - serving in the SPs or related fields. Yet as 5YL showed, no matter what happened, when the call went out they were still Legionnaires, even without official sanction or a HQ.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Steph,

You are essentially right in your perception--the Legion did disband at some point during the 5YG. However, it didn't even happen immediately after Black Dawn, but it was one of the proverbial straws that broke the camel's back, along with Magic Wars itself.

And I do feel what you were saying about the Legion we knew and how their disbanding should never happen. As you say, they'd never give up.

However, how many of us are ever just as passionate about a cause that we were passionate about as teenagers by the time we "grow up" and hit 30 or whatever? Teenagers are an odd lot...often they either seemingly care about nothing other than themselves, or they can be more passionate believers in whatever cause comes along than just about any adult ever could.

Many of us get worn down by life to some degree as we age, but when we are young in high school and college, that hasn't happened yet. How many protests have been historically organized by college campus organizations? Are they the only ones who do this? Heck, no! Are they more likely to either be started by or at least strongly supported by this demographic? Heck, yeah!

So imagine being a teenage superhero and channeling all that young passion into saving the world! Sure, it would keep them fired up for a long, long time...but what happens when they start to settle down, marry, have kids? Would they still be able to sustain that passion? And what if the world changes around them, so much so that the enemy is no longer super villains so much as people in suits, alien powers, governments or whatever? How do you punch beauracracy in the face?

Sure, along the way you recruit younger people to be your successors, so you can move on with the rest of your life--but will they have enough inside of them as the next generation to maintain and build upon what you started? Is it always a sure thing that a son will carry on the family business successfully? Sometimes, yes...sometimes no.

This is why the concept of 5YL, that the Legion disbanded in the interim, works for me. That's why it's one of my favorite eras, despite some of its fault. The Legion grew up, and it wasn't exactly pretty. But it felt real. And it felt that much better that they fought back, reunited and overcame their failures.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Wow! While I was thinking about and composing my last response, Kent posted and echoed the main thrust of my post in the meantime! Great minds yadda-yadda, huh?

But, regardless of that point, that doesn't mean everyone had to like 5YL (as if everyone would!)for that reason, though I think it justifies the core concept behind it. 5YL was stylistically and thematically so much different from traditional Legion (or even, generally, from that of standard superhero comic books) storytelling and some of the twists to out of left field (Sean/Shvaugn & Proty/Garth) that I can understand why it wasn't many peoples' cup of tea.

I'm glad the story was told, though, contoversies and all. And I often find myself missing the friends I made during that time, instead having to satisfy myself with younger, oddly both familiar and unfamiliar, versions of those friends--or in some cases friends never really seen since (ironically, Kent Shakespeare among them).

[ April 16, 2008, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I saw 5YL as the Legion overcoming their most serious setback - all through 1958-1989, they almost always had government backing, adequate funds/resources and public support; taking away some/most of that, bouncing back from forced disintegration, was a fresh challenge this Legion overcame.

---

quote:

---

The only way to "top" GDS was to find a more intrinsic challenge; you can't keep out-Darkseiding Darkseid.

---

This, unfortunately, is what Levitz kept trying to do through the LSV War, the Time Trapper, and the Magic Wars. I believe this is the principle reason why the quality of his writing declined in v. 3: He had only one great story to tell, and he kept re-telling it.

[ April 16, 2008, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
And back to "fixing" 5YL after End of an Era--I'm one of those who has argued in the past that we were left with no choice but to reboot in some way at that point, mainly for the reasons that HWW alluded to: things were taken too far. No Earth, 2 Legions, tragedy beyond compare...how do you follow that and still keep readers interested?

Would it have been impossible to move on? No, but by the end, readership had deteriorated so much that I'm not sure moving forward with the cards the Legion had been dealt would've attracted enough interest to get even another ten issues. Maybe focussing on the SW6 Legionnaires with the older members as mentors would've worked, maybe it wouldn't have. Maybe it would've just alienated half the feeble readership that had remained.

And let's not forget that all of this happened during the time the comics industry crashed in a big way. Better to move forward with a concept that had been played out or try to start afresh? We know which way DC decided to go with it. DC felt this was the Legion's best chance, I'd guess. Hell, few would've blamed DC if they stopped publishing the title altogether given the economics of the time.

So I said, and still say, that a reboot of some kind was probably required at that point. But Kent's idea (a softer reboot) is the best one I've seen that could've satisfied old and new readers without totally starting over, without jetisonning everything as DC ultimately decided. Kinda makes me wish Kent was a big dog in the DC brass at the time!

(Note: I actually did enjoy most of the reboot, start to finish, despite these posts. But in retrospect, especially with the reboot itself being rebooted ultimately, fantasizing about what could have been at that crucial juncture becomes more and more appealing!)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
By the way, I'm LOVING this topic!!!!!!

And I'm not going to continue to spin it off, despite how it drifted because I don't want to dilute this energy any time soon!

BUT--does anyone think I should edit the title to more accurately reflect what it's morphed into in case more posters want to jump in? And, if so, any suggestions about what I should change the title to?

Thoughts on why or why not to change, plus suggestions on what to change it to if in favor, are more than welcome!
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
And back to "fixing" 5YL after End of an Era--I'm one of those who has argued in the past that we were left with no choice but to reboot in some way at that point, mainly for the reasons that HWW alluded to: things were taken too far. No Earth, 2 Legions, tragedy beyond compare...how do you follow that and still keep readers interested?

---

Actually, it was Kent who alluded to those things.

I actually liked (if that's the appropriate word) the destruction of earth -- it was a bold move that no one would have seen coming and it was delivered with poignancy and grandeur. I also do not think it signalled the death blow to the Legion itself: They could always have found another world, named it Earth II ( ), and continued on as before. "Legion On the Run" was far more damaging than the destruction of earth, I thought.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I think the title could stand modification to show the drift we've taken.

How about: Lardy's Lounge: Now discussing 5YL
That way, if the topic drifts again, it can be updated, while keeping the Lardy's Lounge "brand name," letting people know it is a continuation throughout future name changes.

I too did enjoy enough of the Reboot. I can enjoy basicalyl anu version of the Legion to at least some degree, even Waid Threeboot and even Conway.

I can also respect those who consider 5YL to be beyond their scope of what Legion is to them. Steph does raise good points; I spent so much effort replying that I forgot to recognize that. Thanks, HWW.

Lardy, I sometimes daydream about what I would have done with various characters/books had I been in control at various points. LSH 259 is usually the one I think on the most.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
HWW-
LOTR was definitely more damaging, and the destruction of Earth was extremely well told (much better than I expected, knowing it was coming from filling in back issues peicemeal).

But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extreemly well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity.

For example, ST:Voyager. An interesting premise and a decent cast, but without a well-thought out, well-executed plan, it stumbled along rather lacklusterly. Without the stability of known UFP space, the creators kept introducing other beings/concepts that somehow also drifted into a distant quadrant; also, numerous 'new' races they encountered were scantly different from what they knew at home.

To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
(sorry for the confusion when I "quoted" you, HWW--I need to fact-check better! )

Just to clarify, guys, I never said that I disapproved of the story of Earth's destruction--indeed I remember welling up a little, it was so well-done. But in hindsight, doing so did alter the LSH concept drastically as it had always been Earth-centric and could make the LSH less relatable to readers.

That said, New Earth had potential; I'm just not so sure that potential was limitless. I'm sure the plan was to eventually find a new planet for all those domes. And that could've been interesting indeed.

But pursuing that storyline could've put the Legion more squarely in the sci-fi category and less in the superhero category. The Legion had always straddled both concepts but was still more a superhero book all in all.

Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.

And, yes, had the quality not dipped down during LOTR, we may not have ever heard of a reboot. But we'll never know for sure, will we?
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I think the title could stand modification to show the drift we've taken.

How about: Lardy's Lounge: Now discussing 5YL
That way, if the topic drifts again, it can be updated, while keeping the Lardy's Lounge "brand name," letting people know it is a continuation throughout future name changes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
...so basically, the Legion bug bit me and it bit me hard, but whatever it is that I LOVE about the Legion, I just don't see it in the 5YL Legion, yet I can still find it in the Conway Legion which is why I think Conway isn't the worse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extreemly well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity. [. . . ]

To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.

---

Well, that's comparing apples to . . . a computer simulation of apples.

DnA's run had other problems besides its science fiction bent. In my opnion, TMK did a much better job of exploring the science fiction possibilities of the Legion's world through stories such as ProFem and the destruction of earth than DnA were capable of. TMK never lost sight of the Legionnaires as individuals and how those individuals were affected by their world.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
Good points about growing up guys, but still too pessimistic for me. I like my comics being about hope and victory, not about 'real' issues and failures. To me the Legion represents optimism and the 5YL seems less about optimisim and more about cynicism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
To me the Legion represents the idea that humanity progresses and improves, to have their successors and future generations fail mean that their 'message' is ultimatly false.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
I do remember absolutly loving the bright, optimistic Legion and having a real aversion and disgust to the darker Legion, even the 'funny' stories where Thom was a coach and Dream Girl was fat I thought were a mockary of what the Legion ment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
Good points about growing up guys, but still too pessimistic for me. I like my comics being about hope and victory, not about 'real' issues and failures.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr. Kayak:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.

---

i think that DnA's run ran out of steam when... it left sci-fi behind. steve whacker wanted the book to be more "super-heroish", and in the end it just came back to be another brick in a wall of many other similar super-hero books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
Thanks for sharing Lardy (may I call you Lardy)

---

But, of course, Steph--it's just natural for me here! May I call you 'Steph'?

quote:

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I too wonder what similiarites there are between those who really like the 5YL and then the similarities for those who basically shear it from Legion lore. I can certainly understand and respect your position as you got both Levitz/Giffen and Adventures at roughly the same time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard Lad:
My first issue of LSH I ever bought was actually #286, Giffen's first issue. I was ten years old and my interest had been piqued by the Legion's appearances in DC Comics Presents and later enhanced (while reading the Levitz run) by those wonderful Adventure digests that were reprinting chronologically the Legion's Silver Age stories. I was curious to notice the differences in tone, story, art and costumes between what I was reading in the digests and what was in the regular series. In a way it helped me understand continuity in comics better than anything I'd ever read to that point. And it was exciting because I realized these characters had really changed over time, unlike, say, Superman and Batman.

So I guess the way I was educated on change very early on with the Legion really prepared me to accept and embrace 5YL (and later, the reboots in a way), even though it was admittedly pretty drastic and sudden.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
When fans describe the ADVENTURE era as optimistic, I have to wonder exactly how they are defining that term. Yes, the Legionnaires overcame most obstacles (Garth regrew an arm and Thom was readmitted, although Lu never did regain a third body), but comic book conventions at the time required that stories be resolved quickly and neatly, and with very little emotional impact (which is why we never saw Lu mourning over the loss of her "sister" until much later). However, the "darkness" was always there, implied if not outright stated.

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Great, great, GREAT point, HWW! You explain in much more detail what I touched on in some earlier posts. One of the groundbreaking things about the Legion was that things did change and, importantly, bad things did happen to them, even early on! Yes, the ramifications weren't fully explored, but they also weren't explained away as imaginary tales, dreams or alternate realities. If Superman ever lost an arm back then in his books, you'd better believe you'd learn by the last page he never really lost it in the first place!

I think, as a kid, that was one of the things that made Legion appealing to me. While simultaneously reading early Levitz/Giffen issues, I read their early adventures in the digest. One of the prominent characters in those reprints was this guy wearing a headband and a brown costume named Invisible Kid who had actually DIED! Meanwhile, in the "now" a new Invisible Kid shows up who is obviously pretty distinctive looking from the headband guy. And reading the index featre running in the back of the main comic, I soon learned that two other guys I'd never even seen had also passed in the interim named Ferro Lad and Chemical King. Wow! The Legion had three heroes die in action? Not to mention, Triplicate Girl lost a body along the way? This was damn more interesting than Justice League!

So, yeah, Legion did 'dark' even during the shiny, happy Silver Age. And maybe, subconsciously, that's at least a small part of why it had such a devoted fanbase. So maybe 5YL wasn't that far out of left field after all? I'm sure in any case the debate will always rage on among all us rabid diehards!
 

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Posted by Future on :
 
I've thought about posting to this thread, but thought I didn't have anything to add. Especially with some awe-inspiring insights by Steph, Kent, HWW, etc. But Lardy DID ask.

I quite liked the TMK/5YL days, but I think the reason is that I read it AFTER the fact. So I may be proving the hypothesis set before. The reboot had already happened, so it was easy reading for me once I knew my Legion lore because I was reading it as 'a' Legion story rather than 'the' Legion story. No matter what happened in the series it didn't impact the Legion that was being published at the time, or the stuff that had come before it since this story was the aftermath of those. What was to lose?

While I was drawn in by the more youthful, vibrant SW6 batch, I really came to love the adult Legion. I adored Vi, who while still rough around the sens-tank edges felt like she had matured. Great interpersonal use of the 'housewife' Legionnaires of Imra, Lydda, and Rond with their old friends and seeing them in their new roles. This version also made me really like Cham, and I'm still to this day a sucker for all the Legionnaires exclusive to this version. I love Kono and Laurel. They were fun, dynamic personalities balancing out the serious nature a lot of the established Legionnaires had been steered into.

Irregardless of my like, I 100% understand the arguments against the TMK days. I really liked what Steph said about the Legion not giving up and the hope that entailed. Kent (I believe it was Kent)'s comments about how the Legion really needed an intrinsic foe to battle against after GDS also was great insight. To that end, I really did like the set-up of TMK and the Legion coming together again. It just felt like they never truly got there because they had, as they even put it, 'grew up' (away from the familiar costumes and codenames). And as Steph and others have brought up, there was a bit of a 'give up' attitude. Maybe not that the Legionnaires gave up after awhile, so much as the galaxy had given up on them (and the Legion was more or less taking it, or in some instances running from it).

I relate 5YL to one of the best books I ever read: the 90s Starman. Like this version of the Legion, I read Starman after it had finished. Their stories resonate to me more as an adult than they ever would have as a youth or teen looking for something flashy. I found Starman brilliant as I read it because I had all the issues readily available and saw the progression and plot pay-offs years faster than the at-the-time reader (I also had no spoilers going into it; whereas TMK I did but that probably spared me some headaches).

With both books, there was so much going on. With the occasional interlude, it'd drive me insane to wait for the pay-off or try to make sense of where these books were trying to go. Where's this Legionnaire and that Legionnaire? In a book devoid of so much it used to identify with (near utopia, costumes/codenames, inspiring youth, etc) it would have been even harder to hold my interest during that wait.

But I lucked out. I got to enjoy the series after the fact. I had vague knowledge before I began of what was going to happen, who was where, and got to enjoy most of it within a few months. I also had another reality of Legionnaires actively being published to fall back on, or back issues of the v2/v3 days which I was devouring at the time.

For me, the dialogue during this time was engaging, as well as the relationships that had formed in the missing years. Long forgotten Legionnaires and supporting characters got flushed out, though often at the expense of several former stars of the book. Even the gritty aspect was leveraged in engaging ways on occasion, like watching the 'pure' SW6 Legionnaires have their hearts wrenched as they realized what Metropolis and the Adult Legion had become. I felt bad for those kids, and feeling something at all is more than I could ask for in comics anymore.

As a striving Legion info sponge able to approach this version on my own terms, I really wanted to read it. This was a story that had already been told, and I was there to see what everyone was talking about. That's how the 5YL storyline was for me. I've had 11 years now to look back at it, and like most versions of the Legion I enjoy it more as time goes on.

[ April 19, 2008, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Future ]
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extremely well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity. [. . . ]

To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.

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Kent, I agree with everything you wrote (including the VOYAGER analogy), but I'm not sure what it proves. If you're suggesting that the destruction of earth wasn't well thought out, you could be right; we'll never know, as the Bierbaums were dismissed only a year or so later. It would take time for a story of that magnitude to reach resolution. (Giffen himself took an inordinately long time just to reform the Legion.)

If, as you say, DC was pushing the book back toward mainstream super-hero fare, then this, to my mind, is another example of editorial meddling independent of whether or not the idea itself was well considered.

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quote:

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But now, how do we get Gates, XS, Gear, Kid Quantum II, Triad, and Shikari into that LSH?[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

When fans describe the ADVENTURE era as optimistic, I have to wonder exactly how they are defining that term. Yes, the Legionnaires overcame most obstacles (Garth regrew an arm and Thom was readmitted, although Lu never did regain a third body), but comic book conventions at the time required that stories be resolved quickly and neatly, and with very little emotional impact (which is why we never saw Lu mourning over the loss of her "sister" until much later). However, the "darkness" was always there, implied if not outright stated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
So, yeah, Legion did 'dark' even during the shiny, happy Silver Age. And maybe, subconsciously, that's at least a small part of why it had such a devoted fanbase. So maybe 5YL wasn't that far out of left field after all? I'm sure in any case the debate will always rage on among all us rabid diehards!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Future:
I quite liked the TMK/5YL days, but I think the reason is that I read it AFTER the fact.

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quote:

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The reboot had already happened, so it was easy reading for me once I knew my Legion lore because I was reading it as 'a' Legion story rather than 'the' Legion story. No matter what happened in the series it didn't impact the Legion that was being published at the time, or the stuff that had come before it since this story was the aftermath of those. What was to lose?

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quote:

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Maybe not that the Legionnaires gave up after awhile, so much as the galaxy had given up on them (and the Legion was more or less taking it, or in some instances running from it).

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quote:

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I've had 11 years now to look back at it, and like most versions of the Legion I enjoy it more as time goes on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
The one thing the 5YC did successfully was invoke strong emotions in Legion Fans.

I and many others hated it with a passion.

Jerry and many others loved it with an equal passion.

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It occurs to me that the goal of successful writers is to provoke strong emotions in their readers. These emotions don't have to be positive.

In this respect, maybe TMK can be classified as successful.

quote:

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The very things I hated most were the things others loved the most. They aren't wrong and I'm not right. We just have different preferences and expectations.

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Amen.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
You know, I really love the 5YL too, and part of that is like Future and HWW, by the time I read it, the Reboot had already happened. I think because of that, I was heavily influenced in seeing it quite differently than someone who bought TMK #1 off the stands.

It still evokes more teary-eyed moments out of me than any other period in Legion history or really any other single era of a comic book.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
I bought it right off the stands, and was hooked from issue #1. I couldn't wait for the each issue. The anticpation was was painfull, at times.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I, too, bought v.4 # 1 off the stands, but dropped it with # 4 or 5, as I alluded to in a previous post. I picked it up again for a year starting around # 40, then bought the rest as back issues some years later.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
For the record, I bought v.4 off the stands myself. I remember not knowing what to make of it those first couple of issues, but I remember being drawn in by the death of Blok in #3 and then by the Mon-El/Time Trapper battle and Mordruverse in 4 and 5. By the time the story resumed with the new timeline in #6, I was totally hooked. And from there, the title almost always stood out as my "best of the week" in the stash it was a part of and was pretty much always the first one read among those. I'd have to admit that even continued being the case thru "Legion on the Run" as those characters had such a grasp on me.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I'd also like to take a moment to comment on how refreshing the tone of this discussion of 5YL is, considering how polarized we are on the subject. Back in the DC Boards days, similar discussions of 5YL often got a little nasty! Abin's 5YCrap remark aside ( ), this discussion of it is a complete 180 from how those typically went. Yes, it's "The Legion World Way", but even here some discussions have occasionally gotten a little out of hand.

Other than LW's generally cooler heads, I think maybe time is playing a factor. As we get further and further away from the 5YL era, perhaps neither side no longer feels the need to either fiercely defend or crucify it like we used to. Honestly, I myself probably went too far a time or two in my arguments over 5YL with posters like Greybird back in the day.

I'm curious, though. Some of the 5YL supporters in this thread have conceded some of the storyline's specific flaws, as well as sympathized with those who felt the LSH's very premise was defiled by the era. I'm wondering, with this particular iron curtain of Legion fandom seeming less impenetrable now, if the 5YL haters might concede anything about the era at all that they actually liked a little (or at least didn't totally hate)?

[ April 20, 2008, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
 

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Posted by Abin Quank on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
I'd also like to take a moment to comment on how refreshing the tone of this discussion of 5YL is, considering how polarized we are on the subject. Back in the DC Boards days, similar discussions of 5YL often got a little nasty! Abin's 5YCrap remark aside ( ), this discussion of it is a complete 180 from how those typically went. Yes, it's "The Legion World Way", but even here some discussions have occasionally gotten a little out of hand.

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Okay, when Lardy is chiding me about the tone of my comments...

At SDCC on 06 Kent and I were lucky enough to spend a few moments in private conversation with Paul Levitz. The conversation started about an exchange Paul and I had at an earlier panel concerning DC's plans for video productions of classic story-lines. He had asked for suggestions and I immediately brought up the Great Darkness Saga. Unfortunately he immediately listed all of the reasons why the GDS wouldn't be done on video. That conversation turned into a discussion of our favorite "eras" in Legion history. During that conversation, much to Kent's horror, I called the 5YL the 5YC. Paul seemed to take the comment in stride and because of a few other remarks made during that conversation I came away with the impression that if DC could wipe the 5YL/TMK era out of the collective memories of Legion Fans, they would in a heartbeat.

But to be fair, I believe Kent came out of that conversation with an entirely different impression, so perhaps it would be best if he posted his recollection of that conversation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

I'm curious, though. Some of the 5YL supporters in this thread have conceded some of the storyline's specific flaws, as well as sympathized with those who felt the LSH's very premise was defiled by the era. I'm wondering, with this particular iron curtain of Legion fandom seeming less impenetrable now, if the 5YL haters might concede anything about the era at all that they actually liked a little (or at least didn't totally hate)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
Okay, when Lardy is chiding me about the tone of my comments...

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Hey! Mine are normally line-crossers in the sense they're a little too 'sexually suggestive'! C'mon--saying something a little racy never got a body in trouble, right?

quote:

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But to be fair, I believe Kent came out of that conversation with an entirely different impression, so perhaps it would be best if he posted his recollection of that conversation.

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quote:

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Many of the characters introduced during the 5YL seem to be worthy of being brought back. Kent Shakespeare, Kono, Celeste Rockfish-McCauley, and Devlin O'Ryan among others should get a second chance.

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How about one of my personal faves, Laurel Gand, Chuck? Or was she too much a "mutilation" in your opinion of Kara Zor-El? If so, I'd be curious how you would marry that to Kent being "worthy" when some feel he was an obvious Superboy rip.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Also, I wanted to remind you all of this thought I solicited comments on early last page as another potential topic in our roundtable:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
[QUOTE]It's always been hard for me to put into words why the DnA run ran out of steam. All I know is that "Foundations" just seemed 'off' and that's where it started for me. Some fans point to "Dream Crime", but I really liked that arc, personally. It's definitely "Foundations" for me, and I don't feel it was too 'superhero-y' and not 'sci-fi enuff'. I just simply can't explain why "Foundations" was so underwhelming! Guess I'll have to reread it soon--been meanin' to reread DnA anyway.....

Thoughts on when and why DnA jumped the shark?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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But to be fair, I believe Kent came out of that conversation with an entirely different impression, so perhaps it would be best if he posted his recollection of that conversation.

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Betcha he did! Well, Kent?

quote:

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Many of the characters introduced during the 5YL seem to be worthy of being brought back. Kent Shakespeare, Kono, Celeste Rockfish-McCauley, and Devlin O'Ryan among others should get a second chance.

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How about one of my personal faves, Laurel Gand, Chuck? Or was she too much a "mutilation" in your opinion of Kara Zor-El? If so, I'd be curious how you would marry that to Kent being "worthy" when some feel he was an obvious Superboy rip.

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It's beginning to sound like you're taking this personally, Tony. No she's not a Mutilation of a previously existing character but she already received a second chance during the reboot (and wound up pretty much mutilated there) which is why she didn't make my original list. But yeah, Laurel "Andromeda" Gand deserves a third chance. And before you go there I realize that Kono appeared in the reboot also but if I remember correctly it was 2 -3 issues in an unresolved sub-plot and she never even met any of the Legionnaires.

Kent Shakespeare is worthy because a good friend of mine likes him enough that he modeled his on-line persona after him.

I am of the opinion that virtually every super-strong, flying, invulnerable hero with super-senses is a Superman/boy rip-off but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Mon-El and Ultra Boy in the Legion. And IIRC Kent has enough differences to make him interesting in his own right. He is a very reluctant warrior who would much rather care for the victims than chase down the perps. That alone makes him a very different character.

[ April 21, 2008, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Abin Quank ]
 

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Posted by Abin Quank on :
 
And to answer your second question - while covering up the fact that I just accidentally double posted - Foundations was bad for two major reasons.

1. It was a poor attempt to re-do the Great Darkness Saga.

2. It attempted to bring Clone-El into the re-booted Legion Continuity.

But I don't know if DnA ever really Jumped the Shark. Foundations always seemed more of a single questionable editorial decision rather than a trend. I believe that DnA could have recovered their momentum if they'd have been given a chance to tell new stories instead of re-doing old ones.

[ April 21, 2008, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Abin Quank ]
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
But to be fair, I believe Kent came out of that conversation with an entirely different impression, so perhaps it would be best if he posted his recollection of that conversation.

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Betcha he did! Well, Kent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
I am of the opinion that virtually every super-strong, flying, invulnerable hero with super-senses is a Superman/boy rip-off but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Mon-El and Ultra Boy in the Legion. And IIRC Kent has enough differences to make him interesting in his own right. He is a very reluctant warrior who would much rather care for the victims than chase down the perps. That alone makes him a very different character.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
The one thing the 5YC did successfully was invoke strong emotions in Legion Fans.

I and many others hated it with a passion.

Jerry and many others loved it with an equal passion.

The very things I hated most were the things others loved the most. They aren't wrong and I'm not right. We just have different preferences and expectations.

In the end I'm hoping for the same thing every other Legion fan is hoping for... The team we've loved for so many years comes out of this latest crisis stronger and better.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Abin Quank:
I am of the opinion that virtually every super-strong, flying, invulnerable hero with super-senses is a Superman/boy rip-off

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quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
Legion Lost was just pure awesome (from what I've read) and the interactions of the characters were great, but once the team was reunited I got the feeling that DnA didn't know what to do with so many members and so many powers.

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This sums up my feelings about DnA, as well.

It's hard to remember specifics at this point, but the fact that so little about their run stands out to me after only four years or so is telling. DnA seemed obsessed with writing the BIG STORY: The Blight, Widening Rifts, LOST, Robotica, ad nauseum. In this sense, they were a lot like Levitz in constantly trying to outdo themselves. Unlike Levitz, they didn't have the love of the characters and knowledge of Legion lore to fall back on (or maybe they had less of the latter to work with).

After Robotica, I remember that stories seemed very padded in an attempt to make them ready for trade editions. Stories that should have taken two or three issues to tell took four or six. To me, this diluted the impact of Dream Crime, for one.

DnA also managed to tell a Darkseid story and make it forgettable! How talented is that?

DnA did have good points. In some ways, they deconstructed the Legion much as TMK did to show the human side of heroes and the sacrifices they make. For this reason, LOST stands out to me as their crowning achievement.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
DnA started to falter especially with the Fatal Five/Timberwolf two-parter IMO. Dream Crime I found to be extremely boring and a typical Universo-rehash, which we've already seen done to death, starting with the first major Universo-rehash, the Universo Project, which was also very boring. By Foundations, it was just unbearably awful, although I did like the first part where we meet the Academy, etc.

Still...DnA never reached 'terrible' territory, and now via knowledge through Batista, we can see just how much editorial interference there really was.

Overall, DnA suffered from what HWW mentions. Even in their other non-Legion work, including comics they do that I generally like (i.e. Nova), their writing flaws can still be widely seen. They have trouble writing themselves out of holes and giving endings to stories that are satisfying. They also are sometimes too plot-centric and not charater-centric enough.

They didn't have one of the best runs in Legion history, but I can say in all honestly that for a brief period they made me really enthusiastic about the reboot again when I thought I'd all but given up hope. And I didn't really think they hit their stride until the finale of Legion Lost, Legion Worlds and the first twelve issues of the Legion series.
 

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Posted by Future on :
 
Ah, DnA. I really did like most of their run, though it lost steam for me as time went on.

As I believe Steph stated, it did become redundant, each arc trying to outdo the takeover threat of the last. I adored Legion Lost, Damned, and even the initial team rebuilding. But the further we get from it, the more I realize the Robotica arc really wasn't that good (I did love the JLA vs Legion on War World though). Like Cobie said, arcs afterward seemed like rehashing.

I always felt overwhelmed by Legion World. It didn't feel like the team had a true base with so many delegates and SPs running around. We rarely got to see the team take action against a threat that wasn't connected to Earth, Legion World, or the Kwai galaxy.

My complaints about Foundations are the same as everyone else's. It was just trying to reboot the GDS, which wasn't necessary. I'm not big on Superpeople being forced into the team either, especially when we're not even talking the originals with actual connections. I wasn't a fan of Kon even before his inclusion. He really had no point to being in the book other than a sales boost. No prophecy to fulfill, no personal changes to be made to that character, etc. Cos not being Kon's biggest fan is leftover from the early postboot, but I agree it wasn't handled well.

I still appreciate DnA's run, and I adored their first two-three years on the title. The last year or two, which most of my negative comments are geared toward, left me underwhelmed after getting excited again for the first time in years for the title.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abin Quank:
It's beginning to sound like you're taking this personally, Tony.

---

After I posted that bit, I realized it sounded a little edgy, Chuck. Maybe it was a residual reaction to the "5YC" thing? But mostly I wanted to see whether you counted Laurel among the 'mutilations' because she was a replacement for Kara's spot in Legion history, at least. I'm glad you don't feel that way about her, actually!

I really do miss me some Laurel Gand, by the way. Not 'Andromeda', but Laurel Gand. Despite SW6 and the reboot versions, I feel we haven't really seen the Laurel I absolutely adored since McGraw & company murdered her in the finale of LOTR. She was bad-ass in a way all those wannabe bad-ass alpha fems in comics only wish they could be. Sadly, with this latest awful Supergirl version we still have running around the DCU, we may never see my Laurel ever again.

quote:

---

I am of the opinion that virtually every super-strong, flying, invulnerable hero with super-senses is a Superman/boy rip-off but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Mon-El and Ultra Boy in the Legion. And IIRC Kent has enough differences to make him interesting in his own right. He is a very reluctant warrior who would much rather care for the victims than chase down the perps. That alone makes him a very different character.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:
On to other things. Lardy, you certainly may call me Steph.

Everyone, wow, it has been great reading your posts, I still dislike the 5YL Legion, but there is a certain beauty to what you say and what YOU see in it, I don't see the same thing, but I do respect your love for it.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
It's hard to remember specifics at this point, but the fact that so little about their run stands out to me after only four years or so is telling. DnA seemed obsessed with writing the BIG STORY: The Blight, Widening Rifts, LOST, Robotica, ad nauseum. In this sense, they were a lot like Levitz in constantly trying to outdo themselves. Unlike Levitz, they didn't have the love of the characters and knowledge of Legion lore to fall back on (or maybe they had less of the latter to work with).

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I think this kinda sums up the DnA criticsm among the responses. I dunno, the BIG STORY is kinda what got DnA (and the reboot Legion itself when it had been floundering) noticed in the first place, so I guess they felt obligated to keep that vibe going. For me pretty much everything thru Dream Crime was absolute money and didn't derail until "Foundations".

I'll just bet if DnA had focussed on smaller stories primarily when the ongoing arrived, fans would've been having the opposite problem with them: "Where's the next epic, guys?"

I think they're approach was: "we've got this over-the-top super-hero group with a zillion members, so let's tell stories that are as big as they are!" And I really appreciated that approach.

And they could do character-centric stories, too. Each issue of Legion Lost was told from a different character's point of view. And the stories in Worlds were smaller and focussing on a handful of characters at a time. And I thought both series were fantastic.

Yes, I do feel things got a bit unruly for DnA when they got all the characters in the ongoing. All their previous stories found ways to focus on smaller groups one way or another. They returned to that with Dream Crime, I feel, and I really enjoyed that story for it.

"Foundations" moved away from that and in hindsight, it absolutely was editorially driven. Kon was already a Teen Titan, so it made little-to-no sense to force him into the Legion. So I believe this kind of editorial interference is at the 'foundation' [natch!] of why DnA started to falter. I'm still angry that they weren't even allowed to tie up all their loose ends before being cut loose, after all DNA had done to revive the Legion from oblivion!
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
[qb]I think they're approach was: "we've got this over-the-top super-hero group with a zillion members, so let's tell stories that are as big as they are!" And I really appreciated that approach.

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quote:

---

And they could do character-centric stories, too. Each issue of Legion Lost was told from a different character's point of view. And the stories in Worlds were smaller and focussing on a handful of characters at a time. And I thought both series were fantastic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
For me pretty much everything thru Dream Crime was absolute money and didn't derail until "Foundations".

[...]

"Foundations" moved away from that and in hindsight, it absolutely was editorially driven. Kon was already a Teen Titan, so it made little-to-no sense to force him into the Legion. So I believe this kind of editorial interference is at the 'foundation' [natch!] of why DnA started to falter. I'm still angry that they weren't even allowed to tie up all their loose ends before being cut loose, after all DNA had done to revive the Legion from oblivion!

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quote:

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http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-8.html
Again, Danny Fingeroth was overseeing us on this, and somehow, for some reason, he got it into his head that we would be bringing back the Lizard for this story. Tom B. and I were present at the Spider-Man writers' conference where the idea had been mentioned in passing as a possibility, but we'd never committed to it as anything other than a possibility. And as I recall, neither Tom B. nor I had any real enthusiasm for the idea, so it wasn't something we were going to actively pursue. [...] Not only that, but every time any new story idea came in, be it from Ostrander or another writer, Danny would ask, "Where's the Lizard?" Tom and I would roll our eyes and try to muddle through.

Eventually, it became clear that Danny would simply not approve any story idea that did not include the Lizard, and he had already started to push his own choice writers upon us. With time-and our patience-running out, Tom and I simply submitted to Danny's will and did whatever he wanted. Terry Kavanagh ended up writing the story, which featured the return of the Lizard.

This was one of the few instances where Tom Brevoort and I felt completely disconnected-creatively and emotionally-from a project we were working on. It became a project we had to endure, rather than something that we could really take any pride in having put together.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
On to other things. Lardy, you certainly may call me Steph.

Everyone, wow, it has been great reading your posts, I still dislike the 5YL Legion, but there is a certain beauty to what you say and what YOU see in it, I don't see the same thing, but I do respect your love for it.

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That's been one of the more eye-opening things about the 5YL portion of this thread, as I said before--people on opposite sides of this particular jagged fence understanding why the other side felt like they did and respecting their reasons!

I've been a MB poster for about a decade, and I've never, EVER seen this much mutual respect for a differing opinion during a 5YL discussion!

Absolutely heartwarming!

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Just as a side note, Tony, this discussion gave me the push needed to fill in my collection and get the 5YL issues I was missing.

They'll arrive with my next regular monthly shipment, at which point I intend to read/re-read V4 1 - 60 and see how I react to them now.

I doubt I'll feel much different, but you never know...
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
That's nice to hear, Chuck, though I doubt you'll truly feel much differently. The only x-factor here for you is time.

What issues did you already have, Chuck? Did you have to buy a lot?
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
And while we're still on 5YL, I'd like to mention one of my most favorite aspects of it: how TMK made me like several Legionnaires I wasn't particularly fond of previously.

Really, from a fave Legionnaires standpoint this series should've been a complete disaster for me. At the time the volume began, I was all about Wildfire, Sensor Girl, Timber Wolf, Dawnstar, Dream Girl Polar Boy and Lightning Lad (essentially, some of the biggest stars of the Levitz era) among others. But these characters either rarely appeared during the bulk of the TMK storyline or else were severely altered from what they had been--or both!

Instead we got primarily a core group of Rokk, Cham, Jo, Brainy, Jan, Mysa, Ayla, Vi and Tenzil (combined with several newcomers like Laurel, Kent and Kono). None of these characters were even in my top ten Legionnaires at the time! And of all the guys to include--Matter-Eater Lad?!!? Say what?!? If I'd known this lineup going in, I honestly might not even have picked it up!

But it worked, dammit! I came to care for all these previously non-essential characters more than I ever dreamed possible! Matter-Eater Lad? Hell Yeah!

Let's take Jo, for example. Pre-5YL--yay, another Legionnaire with the Kryptonian powerset, only this guy can only use one at a time! And his personality? Kinda your average jock-type, homecoming king and all. Had a homecoming queen-type steady GF. *yawn* Wow, he really stood out...not. 5YL Man, suddenly the homecoming king is in a street gang and doing some really questionable stuff! Wow, this Rimbor homecoming king came from is like a big slum--he grew up here and somehow managed to rise above it to be a Legionnaire, but now he's back. He lost his homecoming queen and with her, his moral compass. And the pain of her loss just drips from him even after several years. Now, he's got more of a Han Solo-vibe, and it works for him! Much more interesting than that homecoming king!

I could go down the list and tell you something TMK did with each core character that made me love them and appreciate them like I never had before. And I think that, more than anything, is why I love 5YL so much and possibly plays a role as to why I love the Legion itself the way I do to this day.
 

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Posted by Abin Quank on :
 
Here's what I bought today.

Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 1 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 2 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 3 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 4 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 5 NM 1 $2.40
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 17 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 18 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 19 NM 1 $2.40
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 20 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 24 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 25 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 26 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 27 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 29 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 30 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 31 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 32 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 33 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 34 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 35 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 36 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 38 VF 1 $2.00
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 39 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 40 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 41 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 43 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 44 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 45 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 48 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 50 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 52 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 53 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 57 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989 4th Series) 58 NM 1 $1.49
Legion of Super Heroes (1989) Annual 1 NM 1 $3.20
Legion of Super Heroes (1989) Annual 4 NM 1 $2.10
Legion of Super Heroes (1989) Annual 5 NM 1 $2.10

Less than $75 Total.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Annual 4, the Bloodlines story, is possibly - no, almost certainly - the worst Legion story ever.
but other than that (and LoTR), you may have some pleasant suprises in store... hopefully.
 

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Posted by Abin Quank on :
 
Not bragging but with that last purchace I'm down to only needing some Adventure and Action issues to complete my Legion Collection...

Oh Wait! I am Bragging...


(I'm gonna get so slapped down for that...)
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
You know the rule! Once you buy all the Legion issues besides the Adventure ones, you have to buy everyone a drink at the next big meet-up! So grab those Action ones soon, because I'm getting one of those giant-sized fishbowl margaritas in San Diego
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
didn't know that rule... glad I'm still missing a couple dozen Adventure and a few Action.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
All this talk of drinking makes me wonder...in any era of our beloved Legion, could we have made up a Legion-based drinking game where we take shots every time something specifically recurring happened? Like on the X-Files, everytime Scully said "what you're saying, Mulder is...", or on Lost every time Hurley says "Dude!" Or with the LSH animated series, take a shot every time Violet snorted when she laughed or Brainy exhibited some sign of his man-crush on Superman?

Could something like this have worked for the comics during whatever eras? Classic Adventure era: every time a character *choke*s?

Doing a quick search, the only similar thread for the Legion I found was this one for the DnA era!
 

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Posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester on :
 
I know there used to be a game online somewhere for the pre-DNA reboot Legion. Moy tongues were one of the triggers.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Moy tongues! Yes! I'm sure anyone playing that game would get positively WASTED!
 

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Posted by Future on :
 
I knew there used to be some online, so I dug up some links:

v2/v3 Drinking Game
Postboot Drinking Game
And one for Legion fandom!
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Yikes Lardy, the thread is dying (you know, I'm simply AMAZED that drinking topics can't sustain this thread).

so, switching topics again, I've heard from those who loved the 5YL Legion why they did, my question is, if the 5YL failed, when was it. There seems to be certain stories that I hear mentioned where the general consensus is, yeah, they were bad (and not in the Dr. Madvela *or however you spell it* way).

So, where do you think the 5YL Legion fell apart, or a more general question, when do you think the pre-Zero Hour Legion fell apart.

For my two cents (not liking the 5YL Legion) the original Legion falls apart with the Conspiracy storyline, or at least with the Time Trapper conclusion issue. I finally got that arc and was rather excited, but to me it is a poor story and I say the last Legion story (pre-ZH) that I really enjoyed was the Universo Arc, after that everything seems to be rather unfocused and of poor quality.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Yeah, Steph...I thought the drinking game topic would be uber-popular! Honestly, I thought it would work nicely to point out certain character quirks or whatever that might have popped up a lot in certain eras, perhaps some I've never thought of. Oh, well...

As for 5YL, most fans feel that the train really jumped the track with the arc fans refer to as "Legion on the Run" (LotR for short, though I can see how that might confuse Tolkien fans ). This arc began in number 54 with a wretched die-cut gimmick cover and involved the adult Legionnaires being framed for some crime (don't recall what it was) and having to run away from the authorities, presumably to clear their names in the process. All the members involved get new lame costumes (and in some cases godawful dye-jobs!) and code names that anyone with half a brain could see through! I think Brainy's new codename was either "5" or "B-5"---really clever, huh?

"Legion on the Run" also wasn't helped by the fact that many Legionnaires involved were either aged or de-aged by Glorith in the previous issue (Ayla was grade-school age and Brainy a geezer, IIRC), and they stuck that way until, or possibly even through, "End of an Era".

So most fans of 5YL point to that storyline, or more generally, to the departure of Tom and Mary as the quality was still fairly high until they left after issue 50. Some, however, point further back to the destruction of Earth in #38, saying that TMK basically painted themselves into a corner that brought the Legion too far from its concept and gave them an irrevocable failure it could never fix.

Personally, I feel the preboot ended on a pretty nice note overall with "End of an Era", but in hindsight, I wish it never came to that.

But I'd say the downward spiral of the preboot in general began before "Conspiracy", though. I'd circle the death of Superboy for that dubious distinction. Not that it wasn't a touching story, but this story began the huge retconning of the Legion in order to explain Byrne's Superman-who-was-never-Superboy as the "real" one, and it just got worse and worse with 5YL when Giffen was forced by DC to retcon Superboy completely out.

And, yeah, Levitz's stories immediately took a tumble after Superboy's death, exemplified by the lumbering mess that was "Conspiracy". It was difficult to read, even though contrary to your opinion, I felt #50 totally saved it from being a complete disaster.

Any other thoughts?
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
For me, the first 13 issues, sometimes referred to as the "Rebirth" storyline were the strongest. Red Dawn and the Dark Circle storyline were still amazing. Then came the Quiet Darkness which I still enjoyed, but can understand why some people didn't like it. The inclusion of Lobo, who wasn't really Lobo, appeared to be a sales ploy to many. I never liked Lobo before that, but enjoyed the way he was presented here. The ending of Quiet Darkness was not strong, but I give the story bonus pints for being original. B.I.O.N. and all of Terra Mosiac were just fantastic. A classic storyline, one of the Legion's strongest. The first few issues with the SW6 kids had me totally enthralled. If the series had ended with number #38, I would have been satisfied that the tale had been told, and that would have been the perfect point for a reboot. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy some of Tom and Mary's stories. They did have heart, but the "vision thing" was lost with Giffen's depature.

When McGraw picked up the scripting with #50 it was one big thunk. The magic was gone. It got worse with Legion on the Run, and then just spiraled out of control. End of an Era was a complete mess in my eyes, as was anything associated with Zero Hour. It seemed like an attempt to bring everyone back for a last hurrah, but nobody was acting right. It was too crowded and disjointed. I couldn't follow it. The styles of the artists involved didn't work well together, and I wasn't really fond of anyone's work. To this day, Rokk as the Time Trapper makes no sense to me. I just don't get it. It was much more of a travesty than Superboy being retconned out of existence. I could at least figure out what Byrne was trying to accomplish by eliminating the Superboy portion of Kal's career. The creative teams on the Legion managed to come up with some interesting explanations, and the stories kept coming. But, Rokk as the Time Trapper? I never got the rationale, and nothing good ever came of it.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I think what made the Rokk-as-Trapper twist so bad for me (if I'm remembering correctly) is there was no real explanation. Yes, we saw current-Rokk lose it because something went wrong with his powers and mentally unbalanced him(or something)...but that was supposed to be why he eventually became the Legion's very worst enemy? C'mon!

To properly sell us on this, they needed to devote an entire issue to give the Trapper space to properly tell his tale so that we could understand why this happened to him. Instead, we're supposed to just take it at face value: "OH! Rokk lost it last issue, so he becomes the Time Trapper--Kewl!"

Nuh-uh!

Basically, I wasn't closed to the Trapper having once been a Legionnaire (hell, his faceless appearance had fandom speculating for years), but you don't just throw it out there like that! Sell it to us! Show us how it makes perfect sense! If one of our founders, one of our most beloved heroes, turns into one of their most vicious enemies, it'd better be one of the best stories ever told!!!

And it suuuuure wasn't! Hell, it was less believable than that beloved GL classic "Emerald Twilight"! And it was obviously just thrown in there because this was the last story of the Legion as we'd known it to give it some manufactured sense of closure.

I guess I just liked "End of an Era" at the time because it had a lot of sentiment to it. Some touching scenes there as we watched our friends vanish out of existence. But no, not a great story at all, especially in hindsight.
 

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Posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester on :
 
I don't think the pre-Zero Hour Legion ever "fell apart" in the sense of becoming something unsalvageable or that really warranted scrapping everything and starting again as was done with the reboot. Legion on the Run was a pretty crappy story, but not really significantly worse than some of the Conway stories, or even Levitz's Starfinger story, for that matter.

The biggest weaknesses of 5YL are the obsession with retconning that started with the editorially mandated removal of Superboy (but once the door opened they kind of became obsessed with the "everything you thought you knew is false" mentality!), and the fact that the storyline of the Legion getting back together just dragged on way too long. The plan was always to get them back to traditional costumed super-heroics, but after fifty issues it still wasn't completely clear who was a member of the team and who wasn't. The appearance of the SW6 Legion was a huge distraction as well, though I really enjoyed the Legionnaires series (except or the stupid "modernized" codenames).
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Eryk makes a good point about LotR not being any worse than some of Conway and Levitz' lesser tales.

I myself have defended LotR's merits (which to me consist of mainly using long-unseen and seldom-used characters from LSH lore).

For me the 5YL became utter crapola with the death of Laurel. Explosions DON'T kill Daxamites, by damn! Also wasn't fond of the whine-ification of Spider Girl/Wave.

DC screwed up by dumping Tom and Mary.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Lash is here! YES--this thread has now truly arrived!!!

Actually, Eryk and EDE, I think the point about LotR regards its relative quality compared to what we'd grown accustomed to, as opposed to its quality relative to all other Legion stories. Fans of 5YL had simply become accustomed to better storytelling than what we saw in LotR.

I mean, even I'll concede that LotR wasn't really atrocious, but it was just so gimmicky and goofy. I, for one, would certainly have rather seen something more organic with what had come before being used as a story basis, something I'm sure Tom and Mary would've done had they been allowed to continue.

And, yes, killing Laurel off...it really hurt. And, as Lash says, it made no sense. A Daxamite simply would have survived that. The only reason I can imagine they'd want to kill Laurel is because they knew things were about to be rebooted anyway and needed an emotional punch at the end of the story.
 

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Posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester on :
 
In a sense, I actually think LOTR was kind of the right thing to do, in that it was an attempt to get the Legionnaires back in costumes and using codenames, and restore some sense of "tradition super-heroics" to the title. It was just *really* horribly executed.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Dumaka Ester:In a sense, I actually think LOTR was kind of the right thing to do, in that it was an attempt to get the Legionnaires back in costumes and using codenames, and restore some sense of "tradition super-heroics" to the title. It was just *really* horribly executed.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:


But I wonder, Eryk, was getting them back into costumes and using codenames again really the "right thing to do" as 5YL had successfully (IMO, of course) ditched those trappings?

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quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:

I say the 5YL Legion did not 'successfully' remove the trappings of costumes and codenames. However, I say this in complete ignorance of the story, but more along the line that comic books do not 'successfully' change anything. Comics and heroes are, ultimately (she said making a very broad generalization) maintaining the status quo. . . .
Now of course I can't really back that with evidence, it is all conjunction and speculation on my part, but I do think that the idea of 'change' in comics and 'changes' in comic universes are bogus, as the changes can not sufficiently affect the status quo otherwise they do not sustain themselves.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
And not to single out Steph: Do others prefer characters to maintain the status quo or to truly evolve as time goes on (meaning that they should reach a point where they cannot go back to how they originally were)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Even though the thread has moved beyond this discussion, I want to comment on this.

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Just to clarify, HWW, I take my cues from my fellow contributors when I edit the Roundtable topic to reflect what's going on currently in the thread. There are no steadfast rules and NO dead topics! If anyone misses a few days, or is new to the topic, I hope they DO take the initiative and comment on something we've "moved beyond"!

Please, everyone, this is YOUR topic and wouldn't have gotten to these 14 wonderful pages without you!


 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
As for your latest point, HWW, I prefer evolution, man!

That said, I can see the dilemma the Big Two face when trying to apply this philosophy to their most iconic mastheads. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman for DC and Spidey and maybe Wolverine for Marvel are just so imbedded in the culture that I can see why it would be problematic for them to stray too far from the concept or put someone else in the identity.

To me, pretty much everyone else at either company is fair game because the people under the masks don't seem as integral to their basic concepts. I'm not saying any of these are necessarily poorer characters than the icons, just that the general public doesn't know them as well, if at all, and that should give the creators lots of leeway. But the Big Two obviously disagrees. Wally West makes a great Flash--why do they have to bring Barry back? And Captain America--I've no doubt they'll bring Steve Rogers back very soon, but what's wrong with having Bucky stay in the role when Brubaker sold the majority of fandom on Bucky's return in acclaimed fashion?

And the Legion, of all properties--being set 1,000 years in the future and being as below the radar as anything being published by a major company--why in the United Planets did it have to be rebooted twice and retconned several times before that? Change was something preboot Legion excelled at. Now, it seems that change for the Legion is synonomous with reboots or retcons! I swear it makes about as much sense for something so outside the mainline DC continuity as the Chewbacca Defense parody did in that episode of South Park! Bloody grife!
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephbarton:

I say the 5YL Legion did not 'successfully' remove the trappings of costumes and codenames. However, I say this in complete ignorance of the story, but more along the line that comic books do not 'successfully' change anything. Comics and heroes are, ultimately (she said making a very broad generalization) maintaining the status quo. . . .
Now of course I can't really back that with evidence, it is all conjunction and speculation on my part, but I do think that the idea of 'change' in comics and 'changes' in comic universes are bogus, as the changes can not sufficiently affect the status quo otherwise they do not sustain themselves.

---

You make an excellent point, Steph -- one that I grudgingly agree with, if only because this seems to be the prevailing philosophy of those in power at Marvel and DC these days: Heroes don't really change; they are all about preserving the status quo, as you put it, or the franchise, from a business perspective.

Yet one of the things that attracted me to comics in the first place and sustained me through three decades of fandom was the illusion that heroes could change....

The Legion was not alone in this, as most mainstream comics (i.e., those published by Marvel and DC) perpetuated an illusion of change. Peter Parker graduated from high school and went on to college and post-grad work. Reed and Sue got married and had a child. The original X-Men moved on and were replaced. Even the Avengers changed their lineup as early as their second issue. The idea that heroes could change and that change, while sometimes bittersweet, could lead to better things set comics apart from other forms of mainstream entertainment...

It's odd and disheartening to see this trend reverse itself. Modern TV series such as "Law and Order" and "Lost" (which I admittedly don't watch) have attracted large audiences by changing their casts and evolving their characters and relationships. Comics, on the other hand, dwindle in readership as they go from one mega-event to another while their characters avoid "real" change. I think this is particularly true of the Legion today, where reboots and multiple versions serve as quick fixes to such thorny "problems" as character growth and story development.

A "real" story, after all, has to go somewhere...

From your post above and your previous posts, one might infer that you don't think change in comic book characters is ever a good idea. Is this true, or is there an instance where you think change is good?

---

You know, when I first read this I was all ready to defend myself because I have become 'aware' that to argue against 'change' is to be a disgruntled fanboy that no one likes, however, after thinking about it a bit more, I think you're right, I don't like change. I like growth in my characters, and I really don't like it when a character 'digresses.' But in the end, I want my good guys to win, and winning, especially in comic books, is PREVENTING bad things from happening (as opposed to be a social crusader or some such). So if things were to 'change' in comics (and generally change = bad things happen to hero to boost sells) then I generally am against it, as usually the hero must fail on some level for the story to come about.

However, this isn't really about my own ideas of what I expect in comics, its about the 'illusion' of 'change' in comics.

I like my characters to grow. That's one of the things that really appealed to me about the Legion, the fact that Levitz clearly drew upon their earlier adventures made me aware that this team had grown and aged, that their view, one of naive innocence (adventure era) has matured along with their role in the galaxy. I love the idea of growth with Wally West, I find it very natural for him to have kids (maybe not aged kids...) but I do feel that the character, due to becoming the Flash, has become a character whose part of his central concept is now growth.

but growth is not change in the way I meant it in my post. I'm talking about changing the concept behind the heroes/franchise going back to the idea that the Legion, originally conceived/presented as a superhero group, had 'successfully' moved on from superhero trappings. That is the change I'm talking about, changing the core concept of the idea.

The only example I can think of is Justice League International. Hugely successful when it hit. It changed the concept of the Justice League from the World's Greatest Heroes to being a group of B and C listers. Again, successful at the beginning (just as 5YL was successful at the beginning) but ultimately the JLI and JLE incarnations disappeared, to be replaced by the World's Greatest Heroes version of the League (Morrison's JLA) that people were most familiar with. JLA goes away, but the current Justice League is still about the Greatest Heroes uniting to defend the world, as opposed to the JLI and JLE.

So JLI changed the core concept of the franchise and was successful for A TIME, but it eventually went away. I feel that the 5YL Legion, reboot or no reboot, would have gone the same way. Look at the two ideas to 'fix' the Legion, one is to go back in time to the superhero (Baxter) Legion and the other is to merge older with younger, giving a more mature, but still costumed/optimistic Legion. The reboots returned the Legion to its superhero roots. I think this shows that, regardless if Giffen had stayed or not, the Legion would have eventually gone back to superheroics, to codenames and costumes.

I don't think that the lack of change is a 'problem' or that it is a modern phenomenon. You say that there were changes in line-ups and character's lives (like Peter Parker growing up) but that is superficial change, it does not touch upon the core concept of who the character is or what stories you can tell with them.

I cannot think of any example where a concept was truly changed and the franchise continued with that change. I look at Green Lantern, change with Kyle Rayner, lasted 10 years which is impressive, but in the end you have a problem. Your 'rookie' superhero can't remain a rookie, you make him competent and he has turned to 'Hal-lite'. The original "everyman Green Lantern" can no longer be an everyman after everything he experienced. So what do you do with him? well, they brought Hal back and I honestly think it was because they didn't know what to do with him. Even Kyle Rayner FANS don't know what 'role' Kyle should play now, they just want to see him around more.

Elseworld stories, alternate futures, all those are great to explore 'what if' situations, but those are all finite projects, not ongoing like comics are intended to be. You can't have a comic based on Superman being a freedom fighter, or where America has been conquered by Russian, or where Wonder Woman is powerless and runs around in a jumpsuit (ha, another example). You can have short term change, hiccups in the overall flow of a story, and you can have great growth. But in the end, the status quo remains, or the book simply dies.

If you can think of any book/character that has been reinvented successfully and has had a sustained run, I would be interested to hear it, because I am only basing my views on my own experiences/observations and of course I do not have nearly half the reading experience as most on this board. However, it is not an editorial mistake, or a deficiency in the publishers, it is the way that the medium is, comics, being serialized entertainment without a set end, then you simply can not change the status quo, the concept, too much otherwise what people like disappears and you lose your money.

So I like growth in comics, both character and situational, however, I want my growth to make sense, to be logical, to respect the characters, and to entertain. However, I also think that change in comics is simply B.S. because if you enact real change in comics you have to undo in order to keep the franchise viable.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
I believe in growth as well. As long as it's a natural evolution. We've seen too many contrived departures of behavior from characters when it's clear the change services a story rather than the story servicing the character. I'm also in favor of exploring deeper into a character, giving them an added dimension or facet that has yet to be explored, but one that fits into what has been established about the character so that the change or revelation makes sense. (even if it surprises)
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I agree about growth, but I'm with Drake in it being 'natural' evolution. It has to service the character as well as the story.

Sometimes I feel better knowing Marvel and DC own these characters so someone like Avi Arad (at Marvel) can call up Joe Q and go 'nuh-uh' if they plan on doing something outrageous.

Also, its the writers jobs to keep the series interesting and to make it run well past their leaving the series and even well into the future where the creators and fans of one particular time period have since moved on. Only the rarest of exceptions should be allowed to break this rule. So sure, make natural changes to Superman, but know that Superman will outlive you--so don't try to conclude the series. Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule, and I don't have an outline, and I don't want to provide one
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I hope it's clear in my last post that the evolution I favor in my characters characters is also of the "natural" variety. In the cases I used of Flash and Cap, death is a realistic thing to happen to the characters, and I felt their successors were well-chosen.

But I'm not in favor of stunts like what was done with Hal's character during Emerald Twilight--that was just pure dreck! I think there is room for stories where a hero goes bad, but that story was terribly fabricated and forced. I can even accept the possibility that Hal could go bad--Hal's basically a cop (a flawed one, at that), and cops sometimes go bad--but he just wouldn't go that far over the deep end overnight. (Years later, Geoff Johns gave us a band aid to explain why it wasn't all what it appeared to be.)

That's where the "natural" comes in. If you're going to tell the story of a good guy going bad, take your time...sell us on it gradually, and make us believe it, maybe even expect it, when things finally go south. One of the inherent problems with that in the comics industry is that writers rarely stay on a title long enough to evolve a character naturally and gradually. And when they leave, whomever succeeds them is usually so dead-set on carving out their own direction or tearing down everything that the other guy built up that the kind of natural evolution we might want is virtually impossible!

This is where a strong editor would normally come in handy, but there's a lot of turnover there, too. And even when there's not, the editor is usually more motivated by increasing sales, rather than building the character naturally, in order to please his boss and build job security.

Probably the best creative handoff I've seen in recent memory was the transition from Bendis/Maleev to Brubaker/Lark on Daredevil. The new creative team built on what came before so well that you'd swear there was no change! Even the art is consistent with what Maleev established! And though Matt Murdock has gotten a semblance his life back, he's still known to be Daredevil even though officially he's not. Brubaker didn't just have Matt make a deal with the devil like Peter Parker did and effectively nullify the story (and yes, Peter should never have been outed), and the stories have been all the more compelling and challenging for it. Hopefully, the next writer will go this route whenever Brubaker leaves, but it's hard not to be skeptical.

Comics are serialized stories, yes. But even in soap operas, characters live, die (like comics, often not permanently ) and evolve. Comics characters can too if it's true to their story.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Good points Lardy (heh, I like that name). There are of course debates over which changes are natural evolution and which are OOC story driven stunts (like I would argue 5YL is OOC story driven stunt, many would argue otherwise) but I certainly feel that there are far too many examples where everyone (well, vast vast majority) agrees that 'x was an OOC story driven event.'

I feel part of the job of the writer is to tell the story they want to tell, but with the character and situations they were given. If you want to tell a Superman goes bad story, than its up to the writer to make it convincing why Superman, as we know him, would go bad. This is something I don't think they did with Hal Jordan at all.

On another note, I feel that too often writers (and to an extent fans) want characters to be so 'relatable' that they forget that in the end these characters are supposed to be HEROES. There seems to be instances where a fan says 'that's how I would act in that situation so it is perfectly believable for so-and-so to act in that situation' while ignoring the fact that character x has faced far worse things then that fan probably has and it has not stopped them.

To me continuity isn't so much nitpicking of events, it is more an internal consistancy. Character a behaves this way because it was shown that character a reacts to adversity this way in stories a, b and c. Or, character b did this because he/she learned from mistakes in story x and y. Also, things such as flight rings do this or this planet is like this also adds to the internal consistancy of a universe.

And of course, characters can grow and evolve this way, as long as it is consitant and logical. To me most 'change' in comics seems to be fairly illogical and inconsistant with prior characterizations. Again, it is stunt story driven and has nothing to do with how the characters would react.

[ May 07, 2008, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: stephbarton ]
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Forgive my ignorance, Steph, but: "OCC"? What does it stand for?
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Nothing, it should have been OOC (Out of Character), man is my face red.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
'sokay, Steph...I've made more than my share!

Certainly, though, you're right that a lot of the big events in comics are more story-driven and not true to the character. There's probably no better example of this than the already-discussed character assassination of Hal Jordan.

Another good example of this was what was done to Hank Hall in his transformation from Hawk to Monarch. Hank was always presented as a very flawed individual, but the story as told was just utter event-driven crap, made even worse by the fact that Captain Atom, I believe, was originally intended to be revealed as Monarch. I think that would have been an even worse character assassination, if that's possible, had DC gone through with that plan.

And as this particular conversation has developed, I've found myself wondering whether one of comics' classic stories, the Dark Phoenix Saga, was really true to the character of Jean Grey. It's hard for me to judge because I first met her via back issue. I found it beyond amazing as a young man just discovering the rich history of the X-Men, but I wonder how old-school fans, or even those who'd just been regular readers at the time, felt about it when it happened. It was a really groundbreaking story, probably the first of its kind in comics, but I imagine it pissed off quite a few fans of the character at the time.

The story worked for me as a teenager who'd started reading the X-Men during Paul Smith's stint as artist, and obviously, it's regarded as a classic. But Jean Grey was eventually resurrected and the teeth taken out of the chain of events in the explanation of her survival with a big ol' retcon (much like what was done when Hal was brought back as GL). But as originally written, as it was intended, was it true to the character of Jean Grey? That's really hard for me to judge.

That's certainly some food for thought. Any fans out there who lived the DPS in the moment? Des, have you ever asked your dad that question?
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
As for the 5YL Legionnaires being OOC, Steph, I'm sure you know I'll respectfully disagree. I know I'd ever have connected so well to all those characters had I felt they were inconsistent with all those stories I read before that era began. I also know from your prior posts that your main OOC gripe would be that you felt the characters "gave up" on the Legion and being heroes in general and that you could never be able to accept that above all else. We've certainly discussed that at length, and I and others illustrated how the "giving up" made sense to us, at least. Best of all, everyone respected everyone else's opinions

But putting that issue aside, I'd say 5YL, particularly thru the end of the Bierbaums tenure, was very true in the portrayals to the characters as we'd known them. Certainly, there were some missteps (particularly Shvaughn/Sean), but I loved 5YL foremost for the characterizations and how they were true to what came before. And I'm definitely including what happened to Dirk.

Obviously, a big tool that was utilized to help sell some of the more extreme changes was the use of the Five Year Gap itself and the references to things that happened during that time that gradually got more and more explanation to varying degrees. This worked for me, too, because you could see the seeds of the Legion's disintegration being subtly (then, not-so-subtly) planted as the Baxter series progressed, and the final issue pointed to rough times ahead. Had Baxter began, continued and ended about shiny, happy times in the clubhouse, this would've been lots harder for me to swallow. But it didn't, and that made it a lot easier to suspend my disbelief and accept that really bad things happened in those missing five years.

Bottom line was I accepted these characters as Rokk, Jo, Cham, Vi, etc. readily, and I rarely had that wtf moment that made me thing the Legionnaires were acting OOC. Yes, 5YL was definitely an "event", but a great example of one that mostly worked because the characters were recognizable and generally were true to their selves.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
That's certainly some food for thought. Any fans out there who lived the DPS in the moment? Des, have you ever asked your dad that question?

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We’ve talked about it over a hundred times and he’s given me quite a few. Obviously, Dark Phoenix Saga is such a large-scale magnitude with a series of huge ramifications, the most potent being that a long-time original member of the X-Men, Jean Grey, was killed, that there are very few moments in comics history that can compare. Specifically because the last 20 years have tried to match this so often—and have so often failed due to lack of literary integrity, no real substance or just plain bad story-telling—that its hard to find something that can compare. But my Dad of course wouldn’t look to anything in the last 20 years

A few of his would be (I’ll begin with lesser scale stuff). Some if it is me going off on a tangent (as I’m apt to do )

Blue Beetle – One of my father’s favorite characters is Blue Beetle, from the Charlton days when he was buying Steve Ditko Charlton comics off the rack, and he was able to one day pick up the Ditko Blue Beetle relaunch and suddenly find that Dan Garret, the Blue Beetle from the 1940’s, dies within the story and passes the mantle on to Ted Kord. To him, this was huge. Anyone who hasn’t read the story, I recommend it—its actually a masterpiece of Ditko work and probably the best Ted Kord story of all time, even after all this great stories in JLI. Here, the entire mythos changed, in Dan Garret died in the end, passing the mantle on to an entirely new character. But this was not until Ditko (famous for giving TONS of story in any single issue) showed the two of them becoming good friends, and Garret actually training Ted. The entire Blue Beetle mythos experienced some real growth here (and its one of the first times such a transition was ever made), and I’d wager most people would say it was for the better. Now imagine there being no internet, no Previews or Wizard and no comic book fanzines and you simply picked it up off the rack one afternoon.

The Avengers – I’ve mentioned this before but its an amusing anecdote. My father was a Marvel Zombie in his youth (pre-teens/early teens) and like most Marvel Zombies, the Avengers were instantly a hit. The mini-saga of the Hulk crossing from title to title, into the Avengers and then the FF, the growing friendship of the heroes (which meant the MU was actually coming together), Cap, Zemo, Kang, etc.—it was all really amazing. When #16 hit, most people today don’t realize that fan reaction was purely NEGATIVE. Hawkeye, Wanda and Pietro joined as everyone but Cap left and largely most fans hated the new line-up and hated all three of the new Avengers. My father and almost everyone he knew who collected comics (and back then, a large portion of kids in the US did) dropped the Avengers completely, preferring not to read the stories with Cap and his new line-up. Sales were so bad that Stan started to play on this within the stories, and that’s why they were called Cap’s Kooky Quartet. This is also why the Wasp showed up on the cover of #26—which worked, as my father and other kids his age picked up the comic again for the first time in a year because they knew what they really wanted was on the way: Goliath (albeit, newer & better name and cool new costume). Goliath immediately became the star of the Avengers, which helped bring old readers, who quickly became fans of the other big star of the time, Hawkeye. In a way, Hawkeye owes Hank Pym a debt for that. But this is a good example of how a series can change over time, but be faced without a complete negative reaction. Today, you’d think this was largely to the Avenger’s and Marvel’s benefit to change so early and bring in characters many know and love today.

Crisis & the Flash - Those two are pretty small scale, but one major one is Crisis which had huge ramifications in a hundred different places, but the one my father particularly cared about was the death of the Flash. By the time Crisis had come out, my father had stopped reading comics throughout the entire end of the 60’s and entire 70’s and had only just began picking them up in the early 80’s, then hunting down the back issues of all the Marvel comics he missed in the 12 years in between (later doing the DC’s in the late 80’s). So when Crisis hit he had been back into comics for about two or three years and was embedded enough in DC (which at the time he considered superior to Marvel in terms of quality across the board) to understand the magnitude of what was happening, though he wasn’t exactly faithful to the idea of the multiverse or even Supergirl’s part in Superman’s mythos. But he did love the Flash since he was a kid, and it was a major thing to see Crisis #8 arrive, after almost a year of the Flash being missing and then read it to see Barry Allen’s death. Which is up there as probably the greatest death in the history of comics (IMO and his too with a few other contenders). And by Crisis’ end, Wally had taken up the mantle (and would have about 5 years of struggling with it as largely a horrible Flash until Waid). But you know what? He loved it. He loved Barry, Jay and Wally, loved the mythos, loved the history of the Flash as a series, but he especially loved how Wolfman and Perez were able to do it. Extremely heroic, showing some real grit and bravado while being heart-breaking and awe-inspiring at the same time. Followed by Wally’s reaction four issues later when he learns from the Psycho-Pirate what happened (heart-breaking) and that page near the end of #12 where Wally tells Jay he’s becoming the new Flash (one of about three scenes that makes me tear-up every time I read it). It just worked. Everything was there—real growth for the Flash mythos and Wally West, Barry staying completely in character and showing off some of that 1950’s Silver Age heroism, and it all coming together so effortlessly to the reader.

In a way, the Flash storyline in Crisis reflects the Blue Beetle one from Charlton in 1967 on a much larger, more grand scale (in terms of actual scenario and sequence of events in real time). They both reflect the axiom that change is good when its done right. “When its done right” of course, is subjective, but there has to really be a sense that its organic and natural, and not change for marketing reasons. Change for marketing reasons may be a way to make money, and some people may argue its good, but at the end of the day, it often feel lacking in integrity, and I think readers can sense that.

The Dark Phoenix Saga is amazing. I’ve read it about three times and each time I’m more impressed, which isn’t always true in comic book rereads (and besides Spidey and the Legion, I’m actually someone who isn’t always too into rereading things). Not only was it well-done, but the effects, in regards to the subsequent ten years of X-Men stories, were a direct reflection of the changes made with X-Men #138. The entire X-verse stemmed from those events and Paul Smith’s run and John Romita Jr’s run had a certain sense of building from the Byrne run, with the DPS being *the* major event from Byrne’s run. It was incredibly stupid to bring her back, because like Lardy says, it really took the teeth out of the whole saga, and in a weird way, through a monkey-wrench into the entire X-franchise. Since she was brought back by Byrne in FF, she had some great stories, notably in the 90’s and in the wedding issue (one of the best comic book weddings I’ve ever read), but something always felt off about the whole thing. Which is why Morrison killed her again. Now if Marvel risks bringing Jean back for real-real, the redundancy of the whole thing will turn it into complete farce.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
Speaking of "natural evolution", Hal Jordan's already been mentioned as a prime example of the "unnatural" variety and some good ones have been mentioned for how to do it right. Two more I'd like to add to that list:

Jack Knight Starman - Though he starred in a monthly, his story was *about* his evolution as a character. Well timed, engrossing characterizations, wholy believable, it's a benchmark for this kind of storytelling.

Vic Sage, The Question - O'Neil started the series with the character's "rebirth" and took it from there. Vic was a character in transition with many detours along the way, but his 36 issue run felt like one continuous journey of a man's life.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
So, Des...that post was all well and good, but--what did your Dad think about the DPS, specifically regarding his feelings about the changes in Jean's character? (this is assuming he read it when it was published and was a fan at the time) Or did he read it after the fact like me and you?

<I think in context you're implying that he dug it, but I'm curious how he filtered the enormity of it all as a fan in the moment.>

Did anyone else read the Dark Phoenix Saga as it was published and care to share whether it was or was not a Hal Jordan moment for you? (Yes, I'm calling out the geezers! )
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
My Dad and DPS:

When my Dad returned to comics in 1980 (or so), he recalled the four worst comics by DC and Marvel during his youth (in his opinion): X-Men, Daredevil, the Legion and the Teen Titans. Not that he didn’t like them, he actually did, but he just didn’t consider the franchises strong enough in the 1960’s to compare to the other titles he collected (all other Marvels, all JLA-related characters). So when he got back into comics at that time, and was on a budget, he choose not to start back up on those titles. He laughs now, because unknown to him at the time, is that those were probably the four best comics on the market in the early 1980’s (with Swamp Thing, which he did get). He knows that now of course, but missed Frank Miller’s DD, Perez & Woflman’s Titans and our beloved Levitz/Giffen Legion when they were coming out. Moreso, he missed the entire Claremont X-Men run until he finally got back into it with the Paul Smith Brood issues.

Even then, he was never that into X-Men, so he didn’t read the Dark Phoenix Saga until well after I read it (probably 8-9 years ago). In fact, by the time he knew about it formally (via CBG readers claiming it was so good), Jean was actually already back. So about nine years ago my Dad and I finally completed our entire Marvel collection (all Marvel comics from 1960 onwards) and the X-Men was one of the final ones, mainly b/c they’re so expensive. I read the entire run, loved Claremont’s first 100+ issues (Cockrum to Byrne to Smith to Romita Jr. and even a bit onwards, which we’ve talked about before). Then I at last got him to read Giant Size X-Men #1 all the way to #138 (the Dark Phoenix Saga finale).

He loved it. Loved the grandeur, loved the risk-taking, loved the story-telling, loved John Byrne’s art more than anything. Now, you must recall he is a Marvel Silver Age zombie through and through—his preferred Avengers line-up is Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hank & Jan and no one else—and yet, he (like me) suddenly found this new X-Men team to perhaps be even better than the original line-up (he’s a little less affirmative on that fact compared to me). So he actually thought Jean’s death was akin to the Flash (Barry), and that it was beautifully done. But of course, he read these as recent as 1998 or so. Interesting tidbit: what he got out of that run was a firm love of two characters: Storm and Banshee, which is funny because my faves are usually Nightcrawler, Kitty and Colossus. Both of us love Cyclops, of course.

I can give you a brief list of jumping the shark moments he hated though to satisfy your curiousity. Keep in mind these were ‘as they were coming out off the rack’ and they would of course occur between 1980 (when he got back into it give or take a year) to 1993-ish (when he stopped reading them again for the most part with some exceptions):

1) The FF line-up changed to Torch, Crystal, Thing and Sharon Ventura – he considered this the low point in FF history in its entirety. He found the change in line-up largely worthless with no benefit of good stories as a result.

2) the Destruction of Hank Pym via Shooter. It literally broke his heart. Iron Man and Giant Man were two of his favorites (after Spider-Man) and this broke his heart big time. He never read another Avengers issue almost ever again because of it and missed Roger Stern’s entire run. The only reason he picked Avengers back up is because an 11 year old Cobie wrote Bob Harras a letter and he wanted to know why, and was amazed to see Hank as Giant Man again.

3) The Punisher kills Nick Fury. Anyone remember this? My Dad thought it was disgraceful.

4) Parallax.

5) There’s got to be tons more, I’m just drawing a blank.

Changes he loved:
5YL Legion – it made him a Legion fan for the first time
Death of Superman – one of the finest stories written once you cut through the marketing aspect
A Death in the Family and then, Robin III
Justice League International, mainly because of Giffen, McGuire, Blue Beetle and Batman
Hawkworld – yes, even I’m confused by this. Then again, I only know this mini as the mini that screwed up Hawkman. He read it as it came out and thought it was pretty good.
Mike Grell’s version of Green Arrow.
Walt Simonsin’s Thor (including the loss of Don Blake) – Walt changed many things yet my Dad loves his run on Thor more than most any other run of the 1980’s by Marvel.

Things he shrugged at with an eyebrow raised as if to say, I’m no longer that interested anymore:
Spidey marries Mary Jane; plus Venom later on
Punisher-mania, Wolverine-mania, Ghost Rider-mania
JLA-Detroit
Guy Gardner

Things where he smiled at me and said ‘do you honestly think this will stick?’ when I was still a naïve teenager
Spidey Clone Saga
Az-Bats & Knightfall
Age of Apocalypse

Hm, I could probably go on some more. But that shows you how a longtime fan might react to various things happening in the 1980’s – early 90’s.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
the Destruction of Hank Pym via Shooter. It literally broke his heart. Iron Man and Giant Man were two of his favorites (after Spider-Man) and this broke his heart big time. He never read another Avengers issue almost ever again because of it and missed Roger Stern’s entire run. The only reason he picked Avengers back up is because an 11 year old Cobie wrote Bob Harras a letter and he wanted to know why, and was amazed to see Hank as Giant Man again.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Hawkworld – yes, even I’m confused by this. Then again, I only know this mini as the mini that screwed up Hawkman. He read it as it came out and thought it was pretty good.

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Many people, myself included, feel that the mini is not at fault, but rather the Hawkworld ongoing and the incompetence of DC's editors at the time. IIRC, Tim Truman's original proposal for the ongoing series was to set it during the Golden Age. There's a great article by Alan Kinstler which looks over the entire Hawkman/Hawkworld mess (that's where I found out about the original proposal), but unfortunately, as you can see, it's unavailable at the moment:

http://alankistler.squarespace.com/journal/2007/11/20/alan-kistlers-comic-book-history-essays.html

Maybe if you contact him, he'll e-mail it to you.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Des, I guess I'm not totally surprised your dad discovered the DPS after the fact. I really don't know how long it took Claremont's X-Men to become more than a cult favorite, but it definitely was not an instant huge commercial hit. I'm not sure if DPS was really where the success really started taking off or if it was already pretty much there by that time. I tend to think the former. Either way, I think Marvel can thank Claremont and Byrne for that story as the seed for the X-Men's phenomenal status were probably planted with that one story. No DPS or DPS without Jean dying = no blockbuster franchise for Marvel, IMO.

But I'm pretty darn sure there were many fans who were angered by DPS's outcome at the time. But if the X-Men had already enjoyed great success before this story, I think the reaction would have been more along the lines of how we view what was done to Hal.

X-Men was a title that was actually cancelled before the concept was revitalized by Wein, Cockrum and Claremont. Even then, it wasn't an instant success. So when DPS happened, Claremont and Byrne were toying with a comparatively obscure character in Jean Grey. I think if you're a title that has more of a cult following (like X-Men was at the time), you can get away with this more than you could doing something similar with a character like Hal Jordan.

Yes, Hal had run into some hard times. His long-running title had been cancelled. Then he labored for a while in an anthology title (Action Comics Weekly), getting about 8 pages per issue. His strips in Action earned him another ongoing, but one he had to share with Guy Gardner and John Stewart at first. For a while he flourished when the other two spun off, but one supposes sales were waning again when Ron Marz was brought on and the infamous Emerald Twilight was born.

Despite his run of bad luck, Hal was a considerably more visible and more marketable character than Jean Grey was at the time of DPS. Heck, he'd appeared on Super Friends for Chrissakes! Jean (or the X-Men) certainly hadn't had that kind of exposure back then! So with Hal, DC was taking a MUCH bigger risk with the fanbase making his character evil than Claremont and Byrne were taking with Jean a decade earlier. That's why, I think, many more people accepted Dark Phoenix than Parallax. (and yeah, DPS was a much better story )

This brings us back to the Legion. With the exception of the height of the Giffen/Levitz era, the LSH has always had more of a cult following. Yes, we are hugely opinionated about why 'x' take on the Legion works and why all others pale in comparison. That's why we'll probably always be part of a cult following and not a blockbuster success.

But you can f*** with the stories and characters in a cult title much more than you can on a flagship title that has plenty to lose if it upsets the fanbase. So more extreme things will be done with LSH, whether it be reboots, deaths, 5-year gaps, retcons or what have you.

When's the last time a really iconic X-Men character died? Collossus? Well, he's back. Banshee? Is he really iconic? When's the last time a really iconic X-character went bad? Dark Phoenix! They've pretty much been mailing it in, in a way, by only having the illusion of change ever since.

Legion? 5-Year gapped. Rebooted. Turned a longtime Legion stalwart into a murdering monster. Rebooted the second time three years or so ago. Killed Dream Girl (apparently) in the first year. Changed the title to reflect the inclusion of a new character. Changed it back. Another version of the LSH starts showing up in the DCU.

Seems like a pretty big difference to me. Does that mean all the extreme changes done to the LSH are justified? Well, no. But I think this point of view shows why it's more possible with LSH than it is for X-Men. It's a blessing and a curse for both properties, depending on how you look at it.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
You know, when I first read this I was all ready to defend myself because I have become 'aware' that to argue against 'change' is to be a disgruntled fanboy that no one likes, however, after thinking about it a bit more, I think you're right, I don't like change. I like growth in my characters, and I really don't like it when a character 'digresses.' But in the end, I want my good guys to win, and winning, especially in comic books, is PREVENTING bad things from happening (as opposed to be a social crusader or some such). So if things were to 'change' in comics (and generally change = bad things happen to hero to boost sells) then I generally am against it, as usually the hero must fail on some level for the story to come about.

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quote:

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but growth is not change in the way I meant it in my post. I'm talking about changing the concept behind the heroes/franchise going back to the idea that the Legion, originally conceived/presented as a superhero group, had 'successfully' moved on from superhero trappings. That is the change I'm talking about, changing the core concept of the idea.

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So JLI changed the core concept of the franchise and was successful for A TIME, but it eventually went away.

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I feel that the 5YL Legion, reboot or no reboot, would have gone the same way. Look at the two ideas to 'fix' the Legion, one is to go back in time to the superhero (Baxter) Legion and the other is to merge older with younger, giving a more mature, but still costumed/optimistic Legion. The reboots returned the Legion to its superhero roots. I think this shows that, regardless if Giffen had stayed or not, the Legion would have eventually gone back to superheroics, to codenames and costumes.

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I don't think that the lack of change is a 'problem' or that it is a modern phenomenon. You say that there were changes in line-ups and character's lives (like Peter Parker growing up) but that is superficial change, it does not touch upon the core concept of who the character is or what stories you can tell with them.

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I cannot think of any example where a concept was truly changed and the franchise continued with that change. I look at Green Lantern, change with Kyle Rayner, lasted 10 years which is impressive, but in the end you have a problem. Your 'rookie' superhero can't remain a rookie, you make him competent and he has turned to 'Hal-lite'. The original "everyman Green Lantern" can no longer be an everyman after everything he experienced. So what do you do with him? well, they brought Hal back and I honestly think it was because they didn't know what to do with him. Even Kyle Rayner FANS don't know what 'role' Kyle should play now, they just want to see him around more.

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If you can think of any book/character that has been reinvented successfully and has had a sustained run, I would be interested to hear it . . .

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However, it is not an editorial mistake, or a deficiency in the publishers, it is the way that the medium is, comics, being serialized entertainment without a set end, then you simply can not change the status quo, the concept, too much otherwise what people like disappears and you lose your money.

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So I like growth in comics, both character and situational, however, I want my growth to make sense, to be logical, to respect the characters, and to entertain.

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However, I also think that change in comics is simply B.S. because if you enact real change in comics you have to undo in order to keep the franchise viable.

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On this, I absolutely disagree. Marvel and DC constantly update their characters anway, in order to appeal to this year’s crop of 12- and 13-year-olds. As such, they change superficial aspects of the characters--allowing them to wear modern fashions, for example, or killing off certain characters and bringing back others on an endlessly rotating basis--at the expense of real change/growth, which could lead to those 12- and 13-year-olds sticking around for awhile longer.

[ May 10, 2008, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Did anyone else read the Dark Phoenix Saga as it was published and care to share whether it was or was not a Hal Jordan moment for you? (Yes, I'm calling out the geezers! )

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I guess I qualify as a geezer. I was reading X-MEN at the time.

Let me preface my response by admitting to just how much of a geezer I am. I was 17 when X-MEN # 137 was published—an age when, at the time, one was supposed to have outgrown comics by a few years. Unlike today, when comics have greater acceptance among people of all ages, comics in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s were still widely regarded as disposable kiddie fare, the abandonment of which should have coincided with the arrival of puberty.

I, of course, knew that they weren’t. Amid super-hero battles were often found gems of relationships, personal dilemmas, and a sense of right and wrong that represented more of a window into the adult world than anything else in my life, including religion, education, and other forms of entertainment. Comics were the realm of ideas and the exploration, in the deceptively simple guise of fantasy, of those ideas.

But it was still a given that, even though some changes had occurred (as mentioned above), certain canonical heroes in the Marvel and DC universes were probably exempt: Superman wasn’t going to age; Captain America wasn’t going retire for good; and the original X-Men, though they had moved on to other things, weren’t going to die.

And then came X-MEN # 137—and I loved it!

The Death of Phoenix turned comics on its head. Suddenly, everything was up for grabs. There were no sacred cows anymore. Any character could face devastating and irrevocable change—even the X-Men, whose book was at that time the most popular on the stands.

This change was even more significant and ground-breaking by the fact that Jean Grey was not a minor character. Since the advent of the New X-Men five years earlier, Jean had been reintroduced and played up as a significant hero. She was more than Cyclops’ girlfriend. It was she who piloted a shuttlecraft carrying her teammates into earth’s atmosphere, protected only by her then limited psychokinesis. She had saved her teammates at great cost to herself. True, she emerged from the incident as one of the most powerful heroes of the Marvel universe, but that power came at a price. It led to difficulties in her relationship with Scott and, ultimately, to her becoming an unwitting victim of a dangerous villain’s mind games.

Still, Jean was arguably the most sympathetic character X-Men had at the time. This made her callous murder of five billion beings even more horrifying. As Dark Phoenix, she had simply flown to their sun and absorbed its energies without noticing that she was committing genocide in the process.

Jean was constantly at war with herself, trying to regain her sanity and control over the Phoenix force. Yet it was a battle she was losing. She knew that and so she did the most heroic thing she could—she ended her life.

I must admit that I did not get to read X-MEN # 137 when it was published. Either due to a distribution oversight in my area (which was somewhat common in those days) or to the issue selling out, I missed the issue entirely. My first indication that something important had happened was when # 138 came out. It opened with Jean’s funeral and the entire issue was a retrospective of her life as seen through Scott’s eyes—a moving tribute.

Still, I applauded this development for several reasons. One, it reinforced the morality that super-heroes were supposed to represent at that time: Heroes simply did not get away with murder, even if they were out of their minds when they committed the act. Two, it reinforced the idea that the Marvel Universe took place in the real world, where actual consequences could happen. Three (and most importantly), it elevated comics to something more than kiddie fare. It gave them—to my mind, at least—some claim to legitimacy as an art and literary form. If heroes don’t always win or come through battles unscathed, then their world is infinitely more complex and their story possibilities richer.

I held onto this belief for about four years afterwards—until Jean Grey’s resurrection. To me, this was a step backwards off of a cliff for Marvel and comics in general. It was a needless capitulation to the cultural prejudice that comics were, after all, just kiddie fare. (Fortunately, there were many other comics at the time which challenged that notion; but mainstream Marvel would never be the same for me.)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
I held onto this belief for about four years afterwards—until Jean Grey’s resurrection. To me, this was a step backwards off of a cliff for Marvel and comics in general. It was a needless capitulation to the cultural prejudice that comics were, after all, just kiddie fare. (Fortunately, there were many other comics at the time which challenged that notion; but mainstream Marvel would never be the same for me.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Any character could face devastating and irrevocable change—even the X-Men, whose book was at that time the most popular on the stands.

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So, "geezer" , was X-Men really already a smash hit at the time Jean was killed off? If so, it disproves my notion from the post you quoted from--that Jean could be killed because X-Men was a 'cult' book.

I'm pretty sure the relaunch wasn't an instant hit from the publication of GS X-Men #1. After all, the ongoing was published bi-monthly for a good while (until circa the Magneto arc in the 100s, IIRC). Was it a mega-hit by the time it went monthly? By the Imperial Guard arc? The Alpha Flight arc? The Proteus arc? Is there a reference for exactly when it became Marvel's #1 title?

(HWW, I don't expect you to provide these answers, by the way; I'm just curious, especially in regard to my pet theory about why Jean's corruption and death were possible in the first place.)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
And stepping back to Hank Pym, I'm actually a little shocked that there's so much negativity about what was done to his character under Shooter and subsequently. I started reading the Avengers very early in Stern's tenure with a Spidey crossover teasing his membership. I quickly started snapping up back issues and found the relevant stories intriguing. I could also relate to it since I'd experienced some of those character flaws in my own family.

I understand the reaction, though, as it jibes with the kind of "character assassination" we've been talking about. In my case it was okay because I'd never really been exposed to Hank as a character before. This is also the same way I feel about Tony Stark's alcoholism. But I never hear this kind of negative reaction to "Demon in a Bottle".

Is it simply a matter of the DPS and "Demon in a Bottle" having just been better-told stories than was Hank Pym's fall from grace?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
To me, Shooter's story with Hank is the worse case of character assassination in the history of DC or Marvel. I hate it with a passion.

Stern's subsequent story did its best to move Hank forward (and succeeded). Bob Harras later moved him even further along IMO (I know Stealth agrees with me but HWW does not). But what was done was done and its too bad.

Lardy, Morrison's story with Jean dying a second time was not very good IMO, but I'm glad she's dead again. Even worse was the 3+ years of a Jean/Cyke/Wolverine love triangle being ressurected because of the movies. Ending that was more important than anything, considering Logan never really seemed to show any emotion about Jean until *after* she was dead (a handful of thought balloons notwithstanding).
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
All of these thoughtfull posts have me thinking about baggage, longevity, and celebration.

Baggage - An important function of reboots or fresh versions is to allow a series, character, or team to let go of some of the baggage that has accumulated over the years. Comic books are unique in that some of them have been running for 50, 60, or even 75 years. Not everything that happens in these long runs is good idea. Frequently attempts to write past the mistakes or correct them just makes things worse. As much as I loved Superboy and his adventures, I was glad to see some of the trappings go by the wayside when Byrne wrote out that portion of Kal-El's career. Something I didn't like was the fact that all of the Superman villians and most of the major JLA members had manged to make their way to Smallville as teenagers. Credibility was stretched too thin. The multiple deaths of the original Steve Trevor weighed Wonder Woman down to a point where the entire series sufferred.

Longevity - How long do we really think that a comic book series can last? It defies imagination, for me, that Superman, Batman, Spiderman, and the Legion are still being published in any format. These are all pretty simple concepts that have just gone on for years and years. I'm fine with a series like Sandman coming to a natural end when the writer is done. Likewise I am glad that the Peanuts strip ended when Schultz retired. It seems strange that this approach to comic books is the exception instead of the rule. The answer to question regarding how much of a change in status quo is too much depends a lot on your expectations regarding longevity. If you think that we (readers, owners, publishers, creators, society at large) have a responsibilty to keep the concept going for the next generation. Marlon Brando was quoted as saying, "We must preserve the myth," when he accepted the Jor-El role. Must we, really? I don't think we have to. These stories and characters entertained me, my generation, and previous generations. I think future generations will find plenty of choices in reading and entertainment without them. I'm fine with the status quo being shaken up if the story is entertaining to me. Others view this as destructive, and this is perhaps one of the biggest reasons for the wildly opposing opinions on 5YL. It also brings us back to baggage. If you feel the need to preserve, you have to acknowledge that unloading baggage from time to time is going to be necessary.

Celebration - The fact that the Legion is still being published after 50 years is amazing. It truly defies all logic and expectations. The meanderings on this thread point out all the pitfalls that a super-hero team can fall into. Holding too tight to the staus quo, straying too far from the status quo, periods of poor quality, wildly different expectations of fans, dropping sales, inaccessible storylines, too much baggage, too many reboots and retcons, ineffective reboots and retcons. The Legion certainly has managed to find every single pitfall imaginable. Somehow, we're still standing. In the midst of all the mess is a series that has found some kind of strange unexplainable magic in all its versions. That is worth celebrating.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Before Shooter's story, Hank had been putting the whole identity problem/inferiority complex behind him, fighting alongside the Defenders, teaming up with Wasp and Spider-Man in one of the best Marvel Team Up stories (which not only showed him to be a fully confident and highly effective crimefighter but also reaffirmed the love between him and Jan, not least by Hank boosting Jan's powers), and putting in an impressive performance in the Avengers vs. Taskmaster arc. Ideally, the Ultron-creates-Jocasta story from Shooter's first Avengers run where Hank came off very badly indeed, should have been ignored. Instead, Shooter picked up this thread during his second run and metaphorically tore Hank to pieces and put him back together as a Frankestein monster carrying Shooter's own personal demons (and to keep this thread Legion-relevant, let us not forget that Shooter wrote the Legion story where Cosmic Boy hits Light Lass, making the Hank story a case of the dog -- Shooter -- returning to his own vomit.)

I hate the whole subsequent plain-clothes-Hank crap from the next several years, because all I get out of that is a sense of self-denial on Hank's part. Interesting tidbit: although Steve Englehart scripted the stories that set up Hank's plain-clothes phase, Englehart confirmed in a chat I participated in that the whole concept of plain-clothes Hank was a directive handed down to Englehart fully-formed by his editor Mark Gruenwald.

Bob Harras had Hank become Giant-Man again when Kree renegades were invading the Earth with intention to blow up the planet, and the Avengers needed extra muscle because the Kree had captured half the team, including powerhouses Hercules and Crystal. Hank saves the team from being crushed by a Kree Sentry and realizes that he really does want to be super-hero. All told, a good, no-nonsense way to vaporize Shooter's folly.

But instead of leaving well enough alone, Kurt Busiek rehashed Hank's old angst, probably because Busiek couldn't think of anything better, and wrapped it up in a bizarre, muddled way: Hank at peace, but sporting the Yellowjacket identity. WTF?

Enter Mark Millar, even more bereft of good ideas than Busiek, who dredged up Shooter's old horseshit so he could shock people into buying his crappy Ultimates stories. Meanwhile, in the official continuity, the equally bereft Brian Bendis went out of his way to present Hank in the worst possible light. Recently, Hank has been retreading old identity-issues ground by flitting back and forth from plain-clothes to Yellowjacket, and while his Skrull-reveal has gotten some people's hopes up, I doubt very much that anything good is going to come of it as long as Bendis and Quesada continue to dictate his destiny. At this point, nothing short of a total reboot of the Marvel Universe could save Hank IMO.

[ May 11, 2008, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Stealth ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
[(pretty sure it was more than four HWW--six or seven, maybe?)

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Going by memory, X-MEN # 137 was published around September 1980 (I recall a later issue establishing Jean's death as 9/1/80), while FF # 286 was cover-dated January 1986 (meaning that it was on sale in November or December of '85, if the custom of dating covers in advance was still in use then) -- so let's compromise and say five years.

As for X-MEN being popular before the Dark Phoenix Saga -- I have no sales figures to prove this, only my rusty memory, but I'm sure that it was extremely popular for some time before DPS. It is true that the early issues were published bi-monthly and probably did not sell well, which only served to make them escalate very quickly in back issue prices. I was lucky enough to get on almost the ground floor -- with X-MEN # 95 (the third issue of the relaunch, after GIANT-SIZE X-MEN # 1 and regular issue # 94), but I had to wait nearly 10 years to read affordable reprints of the first two issues.

X-MEN was so popular, in fact, that around 1980 or '81, Fantagraphics published a companion magazine called X-MEN CHRONICLES. One of the features was a cartoon which lampooned their meteoric rise in popularity. In it, the lead character buys a box load of X-MEN # 94 when they come out and which his comic book dealer can't get rid of. After X-MEN's success, the main character sells them and becomes a media mogul, only to blow it all on his next investment: "Traders of the Lost Disco."

But X-MEN was certainly a hit by the time Byrne came aboard; DPS took them over the top.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
I'm fine with a series like Sandman coming to a natural end when the writer is done. Likewise I am glad that the Peanuts strip ended when Schultz retired. . . . Marlon Brando was quoted as saying, "We must preserve the myth," when he accepted the Jor-El role. Must we, really? I don't think we have to. These stories and characters entertained me, my generation, and previous generations. I think future generations will find plenty of choices in reading and entertainment without them.

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quote:

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Do others prefer characters to maintain the status quo or to truly evolve as time goes on (meaning that they should reach a point where they cannot go back to how they originally were)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:


Is there any other comic that has been published as consistently (with a few hiatuses) as the Legion for so long without ever really 'making it'?

Yes, it was critically and commercially very successful for a brief time in the '80s. Yes, it recently had a short-lived cartoon adaptation. But for the most part the Legion has remained well below the radar in a way that other formerly cult successes like X-Men didn't.

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I have to respectfully disagree. I was a kid in the 1970's (don't call me a geezer lol) and the Legion was HUGE then - on a level comparable to the Levitz/Giffen years. Cockrum got the ball rolling and then Grell hammered in the runners. By the mid 1970's, Legion was one of only two titles to go to giant size with all new stories (the other title being JLA). Also if I am remembering correctly TDTB with Garth/Imra wedding was the first tabloid DC did with completely new content. The Legion had definitely "made it" at that time.

What knocked the Legion off it's horse? First the DC Implosion, and then the Gerry Conway years of horrible stories with horrible art (the Mordur issue being one example of the apex of badness here) and an editor on cruise control. Many readers bailed during this time. But to make lemonade out of lemons, at least the Legion continued to be published during this dark time in the history of DC.

I also was lucky enough to pick up the Dark Phoenix Saga off the newstand. By this point, the X-Men was THE biggest, hottest title in the marketplace (keep in mind that DC was in the creative dumps at this time due to the DC Implosion and the "new DC" was still a year or two away). I remember to this day where I was when I read #138, when I read it, etc. I knew as soon as I read the last page that I had just read an instant classic and an historic moment in comics.

At the same time I was very PO'd because Jean was my favorite character in the X-Men then. Back then, bringing back dead characters was practically unheard of, so everyone tried to move on. But what ended up creeping into the X-Men stories was this long-term extended mourning of Jean and the continued interest in Jean both by the fanbase and the creators. Eventually things progressed to the point where Maddie Pryor was introduced and the can of worms was opened in a major way. By the time Jean came back I was older and I guess a bit jaded, as I was actually happy to have the character back and didn't feel cheated because I was hoping that this event would lead to some good new X-Men stories that didn't center on Jean being dead and not being around.

Coming a little later after the DPS was when Spock was killed in the Wrath of Khan, and the absence of Jean in X-Men was like not having Spock around in Star Trek - there was a big vacuum that was hard for the creators to fill. So Spock came back. And I guess from being a big science-fiction fan, having Jean come back then didn't really bother me. However now Jean has become a joke - being continually killed and brought back.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
CB, I'm feelin' ya with regards to your rebuttal of my "cult" labelling. But I still feel I've got a point. I mean, the average comics fan probably knows next to nothing about the Legion despite is moments in he sun. Whatever it may have been at times in he past, is definitely a cult book now and has been for some time.

For example, before my local comic shop went under around 2000, I used the eyeball test. I was a regular and used to be there often when shipments arrived. Legion was on my pull list there from about 1986 'til the store closed, and I was always one of a handful of usually five or less who ordered it. Of those, some were only getting it because they were getting all DC titles for collectibility and others for Superman AR completism and such. If copies were on the rack, they stayed there--no one bought it. And for the bulk of its existence my CBS had a very healthy subscriber base, so it's not as if we're talking a very small sampling of comics fans.

So, as I said before, there were definitely times when Legion was a commercial success, even a hit, but those periods were fleeting. And of course, even with the cartoon, if you polled a hundred random men on the street, I'd still be surprised if even one of them would know who the LSH are. That's the definition of a cult following.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
And thanks CB, for steppin' up and representing who I suspect were a lot of 'geezers' who were probably upset when Jean killed herself.

One thing that was surprising to me when I got to read reprints of the preceding years of the new X-Men was that Jean was pretty scarce thru most of the series until DPS. For the most part she seemed like more of a guest star than a part of the actual lineup during most of the run before DPS. Perhaps that made her more susceptible to changes in her character than if she'd been an active part of the team all that time?

I have to wonder, though, exactly how longterm was Phoenix's arc planned? I know Mastermind was shown manipulating her quite a while before DPS, but specifically, I'm thinking of when Jean was first turned into Phoenix after the shuttle crash. Were the seeds planted right then and there for something that wouldn't pay off for 4 years? I do know that Jean's death wasn't planned all along--originally she was just going to be depowered--but I wonder if Dark Phoenix was always part of the plan.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I know there's an off-topic drift from the Legion, but I think CB brings up a good point about the very much extended mourning period for Jean. The initial comics after of course had some excellent character bits where the X-Men mourned her, but as the series moved forward in real time, there's a sense within the comics themselves that "Jean's no longer around" was a theme that never left the series.

This was only further felt by Madelyne Prior, especially because the way Claremont wrote those sequences with Cyclops in Alaska, you really didn't know what the hell he was talking about or what was going on, for like three years. Then came the Mastermind story in #175, which added to that. And then came Rachel Gray/Summers (after her brief appearance in #139-140), which only furthered the Jean Grey phenomina.

Now, there's two ways I look at it: (1) it made for some greaty and drama and built on years of what had just came before, with the same writer guiding the way; and (2) it partially showed the series (creators, company, fans, even characters) simply being unable to let go. I guess those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Or maybe Dark Phoenix Saga, like the Great Darkness Saga, was simply so important to the mythos that it needs to be addressed every so often? Its the manner in which its addressed that things become slightly screwed up: say, Darkseid's curse on Validus and Garth & Imra vs. the Quiet Darkness vs. the Reboot DnA Darkseid story. Or 'Return of Mastermind in X-Men #175 vs. Rachel is the new Phoenix, Madelying Prior becomes the Goblin Queen and Jean Grey returns'.

Where is the line between stories building upon the past, becoming almost living entities that have some semblance of control over where the stories *must* go to overt editorial/creative impulses forcing a series to retread old ground? Its impossible to define that line, but I'd wager there are at least a few guidelines we, the fans, can install given our experiences with these trends over the last twenty-five years (longer, but specifically these last twenty-five).
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

One thing that was surprising to me when I got to read reprints of the preceding years of the new X-Men was that Jean was pretty scarce thru most of the series until DPS. For the most part she seemed like more of a guest star than a part of the actual lineup during most of the run before DPS. Perhaps that made her more susceptible to changes in her character than if she'd been an active part of the team all that time?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
And stepping back to Hank Pym, I'm actually a little shocked that there's so much negativity about what was done to his character under Shooter and subsequently. . . . I understand the reaction, though, as it jibes with the kind of "character assassination" we've been talking about. In my case it was okay because I'd never really been exposed to Hank as a character before. This is also the same way I feel about Tony Stark's alcoholism. But I never hear this kind of negative reaction to "Demon in a Bottle".

Is it simply a matter of the DPS and "Demon in a Bottle" having just been better-told stories than was Hank Pym's fall from grace?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
What made their stories great was that they overcame their problems and were all the stronger for having done so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

But, anyway, the core idea behind Superboy's post is intriguing. Though it may have been discussed before (I'm not sure if it was worded exactly that way), I was wondering what the reaction to the idea might be. Mostly the PU Superboy thing is discussed more as a retcon than a reboot, but I can see the argument.

Thoughts?

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quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
As for the 5YL Legion, in an earlier post I used to term "mini-reboot." I'm comfortable with that term unless someone has a better one.

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RetconBoot?

[ May 14, 2008, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
That one's a little hard to say.

Recoot?
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
That's...disturbing somehow!

Retoot?
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
I'm pretty sure there's a thread around here somewhere where not too long ago I pointed out the need for a term for something stronger than a retcon but less substantial than a reboot. Retcons add to history but are compatible with established facts, while reboots completely eliminate all history. "Softboot" is sometimes used for something that intentionally changes history, but leaves a significant part of it intact.

Of course, I'd argue that LSH #300 was a fairly significant continuity change, albeit one that messed with their established fistory* rather than their established history.


See this post for enlightenment on the notion of "fistory"!
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Fistory? Softboot? Our language changes before our eyes!

(I actually like "softboot.")
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
I'm pretty sure there's a thread around here somewhere where not too long ago I pointed out the need for a term for something stronger than a retcon but less substantial than a reboot. Retcons add to history but are compatible with established facts, while reboots completely eliminate all history. "Softboot" is sometimes used for something that intentionally changes history, but leaves a significant part of it intact.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Note: I wasn't endorsing it, just pointing out that it's another word that gets used for things like that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

A softboot, IMO, would be something like how Fantastic Four retconned out Reed and Ben's being Vietnam (or was it Korea? WW2?) vets and the circumstances around their fateful spaceflight. Marvel does that every so often with their 'sliding timeline'. That's what I would call a softboot.

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What you describe is also known as "compression of time." It was something Marvel was doing all along and with little fanfare (in fact, they seemed to hope no one would notice), so I don't think it's warranted to give it a third name, softboot.

I do see your argument about the term "softboot" being applied to 5YL or the Pocket Universe Superboy. Perhaps the term I stumbled upon, mini-reboot, is a better description, after all.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Dnno, HWW, "mini-reboot" doesn't really have the teeth to it when you consider my argument and the emotional, far-reaching implications. There's just nothing "mini" about this retcon.

Perhaps, the poster Superboy was right to call it a full-on reboot? I'm definitely leaning that way, even as someone who loved 5YL so much.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
But a "full-on reboot" would mean that they went back to the beginning and started over from scratch, which wasn't the case.

"Mini" simply means smaller, of lesser scale. Admittedly, it might trivialize the impact of such an event, as the term is also used to mean "mini-skirt."

Another possibility is "partial reboot." This term, to my mind, brings along ghastly associations (partial birth abortion) which may be or may not be appropriate, depending on your view.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
The 5YL as a reboot theory does give a little more insight into the fan division over the series. In general, those who consider it a reboot seem to not have postive feelings about it. For me, seeing these characters as the originals is an integral part of enjoying 5YL. These are the characters that I grew up with, and they grew up too. It all goes back to the theme of growth. Adventure era to disco era to Levitz era to 5YL. The growth of the team was very linear. Each era built on, and flowed naturally from, what went before.

The 5YL detractors frequently use words like "destructive" to desrcibe it. I see it as "enhancing" and moving forward. I appreciate the care that TMK took in that leap forward. I appreciate the respect that they showed for what had gone before. Recognizing that respect and caring is key to enjoying the series. Fans who don't find those elements in the story see very little to appreciate. I imagine it would be more difficult to find those elements if you don't even view them as the same characters to begin with.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I do see your point, HWW, I really do. And at first I was happy with the PU retcon because it enabled the Legion continuity to go on intact, at least on the surface. But if you look at what came after, not just 5YL, but the fact that this Legion had now never really been in contact with the proper DCU or the real Kal-El all those years--it just altered things so heavily.

Few would argue that that one change, whether a retcon, reboot, mini-boot, partial reboot or softboot, has caused the Legion to be fighting for its proverbial life ever since. Lots of things have been tried in the two decades since, but finally, we're apparently coming full circle to the point where we're now coming back to where we started...with Superman-as-a-boy (can't call him Superboy, anymore!) having been restored as part of Legion history (a Legion history, anyway). It's admirable that the Legion has somehow managed to survive in the two decades since, but now we're back to its roots if DC is going where I think it is with this (Shooter's possible exit being the clue). Maybe its the only way it can thrive again and not just survive?

I love 5YL for the same reasons Jerry states, and I'm not trying to undermine that with the current train of thought. To me now, 5YL is not an alternate universe because of its radical change of direction or to explain away its more extreme happenings but because it and the last 25 or so issues of Vol. 3 remove the "real" present-day Kal-El as a crucial element, first in the form of the PU Superboy and later in Valor.

Like it or not, the Legion was rebooted (or at least a divergent timeline created) around Vol. 3 #37, and what came after, while recognizable and consistent with the previous timeline, was not the same Legion we read since the Silver Age.

It would be akin to a hypothetical "reveal" in Marvel's Secret Invasion that the man the Avengers found in the ice in Avengers #4 was never really Steve Rogers, but a Skrull sleeper agent all these years. Seriously.

So I still stand by the PU Superboy having been a reboot...unless we can coin something else suitably vile enough to use instead. Sorry, "partial reboot" ain't vile enough, HWW!
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
If you want vile, "Glorithverse" is a term I saw used years ago and started to use myself for everything that happened post-TMK # 4.

The LSH wasn't rebooted or retconned, they were shunted to the Glorithverse continuity until Zero Hour ended it all.

(I myself am a colossal TMK fan, for the record)

Wow... poor messed-up LSH fistory...
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Hmmm... Lardy said:

Like it or not, the Legion was rebooted (or at least a divergent timeline created) around Vol. 3 #37, and what came after, while recognizable and consistent with the previous timeline, was not the same Legion we read since the Silver Age.

"Gloithverse" doesn't apply here. "Reboot" seems too strong. I'd likely go with "retcon"...
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Alterna-boot.

I like the term 'softboot' though I'm not sure it applies to the exit of Superboy. I love the term 'fistory'

I think Superboy (the poster) has a great point. Everything up to Superboy's exit from Legion continuity was the Silver Age Legion, and everything after was a different continuity. I'm not partial one way or another anymore, more from warriness than anything, but I could follow that logic.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Just to re-iterate my position... I don't think the revelation that the Superboy that the Legion had been hanging with for years was really from the "Pocket Universe", and thus was not destined to grow up to be the Superman we were all familiar with, is any bigger change in continuity than the revelation that the Legion was not going to grow up to be the Adult Legion from the Silver Age stories because they were an alternate version. Thus, LSH #300 is a change in continuity of the exact same type as the change in LSH #37-38.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Keith Giffen was willing to acknowledge v4 as a reboot at the recent 50th anniverary panel. When someone asked if any of the reboots was good, Giffen was the first person to respond with "I know one was!" and proceeded to talk about his series. (Podcast available at dcccomics.com "Download' page)

And why should he care now, 16 years after he stomped out the door? Giffen's gambit was over once he was stopped from revealing the adult Legion were clones and the teenage pod people were the "originals". That scheme by itself, quite apart from the Superboy issues, should have ended the v4 "originalness" debate when he admitted it years ago. When Goeff Johns explains away v4 as Time Trapper reality-messing (or however else he intends to erase it as "real" Legion continuity), you won't hear Giffen crying foul. After all, Johns is using Giffen's (and Levitz's) post-Crisis, deus-ex-machina version of the Time Trapper in very much the same way Giffen did later -- to rewrite Legion history.

Now, if only Geoff Johns would be as honest about *his* Legion reboot.
 

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Posted by Ricardo on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tromium:
Keith Giffen was willing to acknowledge v4 as a reboot at the recent 50th anniverary panel. When someone asked if any of the reboots was good, Giffen was the first person to respond with "I know one was!" and proceeded to talk about his series. (Podcast available at dcccomics.com "Download' page)

And why should he care now, 16 years after he stomped out the door? Giffen's gambit was over once he was stopped from revealing the adult Legion were clones and the teenage pod people were the "originals". That scheme by itself, quite apart from the Superboy issues, should have ended the v4 "originalness" debate when he admitted it years ago. When Goeff Johns explains away v4 as Time Trapper reality-messing (or however else he intends to erase it as "real" Legion continuity), you won't hear Giffen crying foul. After all, Johns is using Giffen's (and Levitz's) post-Crisis, deus-ex-machina version of the Time Trapper in very much the same way Giffen did later -- to rewrite Legion history.

Now, if only Geoff Johns would be as honest about *his* Legion reboot.

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Originally posted by Jerry:
In general, those who consider it a reboot seem to not have postive feelings about it. For me, seeing these characters as the originals is an integral part of enjoying 5YL. These are the characters that I grew up with, and they grew up too. It all goes back to the theme of growth. Adventure era to disco era to Levitz era to 5YL. The growth of the team was very linear. Each era built on, and flowed naturally from, what went before.

The 5YL detractors frequently use words like "destructive" to desrcibe it. I see it as "enhancing" and moving forward. I appreciate the care that TMK took in that leap forward. I appreciate the respect that they showed for what had gone before. Recognizing that respect and caring is key to enjoying the series. Fans who don't find those elements in the story see very little to appreciate. I imagine it would be more difficult to find those elements if you don't even view them as the same characters to begin with.

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Jerry, your posting totally captures my feelings about 5YL. As I came back to the book after ten years rest, I learned that my childhood favorite characters had aged just like me - and their life had gotten much more complicated... just like mine had as well.

So I delved into 5YL and thoroughly enjoyed the ride. I consider it to be one of the best (if not THE BEST) Science Fiction comic books ever written. The fact that it uses my beloved Legion characters even adds to its quality. The art may look ugly to some, but it was perfect for the mood of the story. And the Nine Panel Grid made every issue twice as long as any regular comic book I can remember.

So for its sheer complexity, its dystopian portrayal of the future and its characters doing what they do best in a totally different environment, I have always adored and will always
love 5YL, even if after L3W, it probably will only be a giant Elseworld adventure somewhere in the limbo of comics - maybe even standing in Luciens (from the Sandman) library of stories never written or told?
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
Since we are discussing definitions, I'm curious about the following:

1) Do fans consider Crisis on Infintie Earth's a reboot of the DC universe or a retcon? Or something else entirely?

2) Do people consider the post crisis Superman to be the same character as the Earth 1 Superman, or is he a different character?

3) What about Power Girl? Is she the same character as the original Earth 2 Power Girl or a new character.

DC currently seems to be taking the position that Power Girl is the same character. The changes to the Legion's history all appear to be ripples from COIE. Isn't it inconsistent to argue that the post crisis Power Girl is the same character, but the post crisis Legionnaires are different characters?
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
1) It's just a mess. The biggest problem with Crisis is that some titles were rebooted, others were retconned, others were "softbooted" or "minibooted" or whatever, others were left to continue on their merry way without effects of Crisis showing up for years. And we're still feeling the effects of the poor planning that went into the post-Crisis period.

2) Different character, no matter what DC says. And that goes for the post-Infinite Crisis mish mash version as well.

3) I haven't really been following it, but it seems to me that this is kind of a mess, too. Power Girl remembers that she is a survivor from the pre-Crisis Earth-2. And, sometimes, at least, the other JSAers remember that they came from this world as well. Only there's also a post-IC Earth-2, with its own JSA, whose Superman and Power Girl are missing, and I take it that the implication is that Power Girl is supposed to be the missing member from there? Well, I guess that's all straightened out.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I'm gonna take a step back for a moment because some of the posters responding seem to misinterpret my meaning a little with regard to my take on the 'Pocket Universe Superboy as reboot' argument.

First, let me reiterate that I'm a massive fan of 5YL, so this is not an attempt to somehow invalidate or discredit it in any way. The bulk of that era is probably my favorite Legion era of them all!

But reading the poster Superboy's words in the Shooter thread just hit a chord in me. I've actually heard the same argument before, more or less, but reading it in the context of Shooter possibly leaving or being fired--I think it activated a weariness in my Legion fanhood. The possibiliy of him being off the title upsets me. I've only read the first two issues of his 3Boot run, so far, but just last week I was planning on ordering the subsequent issues and greatly anticipated reading them because I enjoyed those two issues so much.

But then this rumor breaks, and my perceived likelihood that it's true just hurts. How many times exactly does a long-suffering Legion fan have to have the rug pulled out from under him? Crisis, PU Superboy, Valor, Zero Hour reboot, Waid threeboot, cartoon cancelled and now Shooter probably off the book before he can even finish his damn story? I've had pretty thick skin where the Legion is concerned, but I'm finally starting to feel what all those hardcore fans who finally gave up at some point must have felt.

And Superboy (the poster) somehow brought it all into perspective by bringing it all back to the Pocket Universe reboot (or whatever you want to call it). Looking back, it's clear that everything went into a downward spiral because some asinine editorial policy decreed that the Legion can't ever have made friends with Superman when he was a boy.

When I was around twenty I just had no idea what the implications of this really were. "Well," I thought, "the Legion's grown up and doesn't really need him anymore, so I guess they'll be alright."

Twenty years later, I can admit I was wrong. The way the Legion's been treated and jerked around over those years since the Superboy debacle, I can only point back to that event as being the first domino that fell.

I loved 5YL. The character work was brilliant. I even loved number four and how Valor had to replace Superboy in the legend because it worked as a kind of eulogy for Superboy. There was a love to that story's execution (and a particular beauty in the role Andrew Nolan played) that is rarely seen when big retcons are done. At least there was a story behind it, and it wasn't just done, y'know?

Then 5YL went off the tracks creatively, and we got the Zero Hour reboot. Surprisingly, I warmed up to it quickly and admired how it was building itself to be unreliant on present-day DCU continuity...to be "reboot-proof", I thought ironically. I think it worked so well for me because this was essentially the same cast, with the same costumes and the same personality traits, as the pre-Zero Hour SW6 Legionnaires with a new beginning and without the complicated continuity and the adult duplicates.

I enjoyed the ZH reboot for a long time. And when the creators started to stagnate, it got a shot in the arm by a fresh creative team who seemed to prove my "reboot-proof" theory. This version had legs and would be around a long time, I felt.

Then, suddenly, the axe falls and we're in for another reboot, this time because we had a pair of hot creators, Waid and Kitson, who had a 'fresh' take. Something inside me was weary, but I loved these creators and the characters dearly. So I got excited despite myself.

But this "threeboot" underwhelmed me despite top flight creators and a few cool ideas they brought. The stories were flat and largely unresolved, and the characters were mostly even flatter.

So deep into this 3boot, elsewhere we're introduced to another set of Legionnaires who do have a connection to Superman, and in addition, are apparently the Silver Age Legion itself somehow restored to us but with a few nips and tucks.

So in my mind (and I started a thread to this effect), I'm thinking, "okay, we're in for another reboot and the Waid version will just disappear." But instead the 3Boot continues and DC entices us to stick with it with the biggest writer coup imaginable: Jim effin' Shooter is hired to revitalize the 3Boot and establish it as THE Legion! I snapped up the first two issues, and they were indeed great. "Maybe," I thought, "just maybe, DC's gonna get it right this time!"

But here we are, May 2008 and half a year into the run, and we're waiting for the hammer to fall again because of a rumor from a credible source that Shooter is off Legion. It's just too much.

So that's why Superboy's posts hit a nerve. I feel like we're about to be jerked around one-too-many times most likely because DC has finally realized that they did a bad thing by cutting Superboy out of the Legion in the first place? Two decades later? That's way, waaaaayyyy too late, DC!

There's two things I'm gonna need from DC, or they may just lose me forever:

1) Let Shooter at least finish his story!

2) If the Lightning Saga Legion will soon be the Legion, then it had better be done really well, and they damned well better stick with it!

I've just simply had enough, and I now realize that it all goes back to the Pocket Universe story. Yes, there's a lot I've enjoyed in those two decades since, but where has it really gotten me? What kind of payoff have I received when the rug is constantly being pulled from beneath me? Has any diehard fan of any continuously published comic ever been treated with so little care?

All I can say is, Spider-man fans may look back the same way Legion fans are before long.....
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
And with all the discussing about Superboy, until today niobody could answer my question:

If they had to take Superboy out, why FIRST doing the Pocket Universe story and THEN doing the Valor retcon??? Why was it necessary to complicate things if the Legion Superboy was already "explained away"?

I never got that...
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Mike Carlin.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Since we are discussing definitions, I'm curious about the following:

1) Do fans consider Crisis on Infintie Earth's a reboot of the DC universe or a retcon? Or something else entirely?

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2) Do people consider the post crisis Superman to be the same character as the Earth 1 Superman, or is he a different character?

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3) What about Power Girl? Is she the same character as the original Earth 2 Power Girl or a new character.

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DC currently seems to be taking the position that Power Girl is the same character.

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The changes to the Legion's history all appear to be ripples from COIE. Isn't it inconsistent to argue that the post crisis Power Girl is the same character, but the post crisis Legionnaires are different characters? [/qb]

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
I do see your point, HWW, I really do. And at first I was happy with the PU retcon because it enabled the Legion continuity to go on intact, at least on the surface. But if you look at what came after, not just 5YL, but the fact that this Legion had now never really been in contact with the proper DCU or the real Kal-El all those years--it just altered things so heavily.

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Few would argue that that one change, whether a retcon, reboot, mini-boot, partial reboot or softboot, has caused the Legion to be fighting for its proverbial life ever since.

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So I still stand by the PU Superboy having been a reboot...unless we can coin something else suitably vile enough to use instead. Sorry, "partial reboot" ain't vile enough, HWW!

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You're going for an emotionally loaded term while I was trying to find an objective way of describing the event without making a value judgment about it.

(Even though I suggested "partial reboot" as analogous to partial birth abortion, I'm not sure I endorse it for that reason.)

Even reboots are not by definition good or bad. They are just events. And, as we have seen, some good story lines and characters came out of the Legion reboot.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Just to re-iterate my position... I don't think the revelation that the Superboy that the Legion had been hanging with for years was really from the "Pocket Universe", and thus was not destined to grow up to be the Superman we were all familiar with, is any bigger change in continuity than the revelation that the Legion was not going to grow up to be the Adult Legion from the Silver Age stories because they were an alternate version. Thus, LSH #300 is a change in continuity of the exact same type as the change in LSH #37-38.

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Again, HWW, I'm not trying to devalue all the stories that came after the pocket universe story! In fact, I've enjoyed the vast majority of the stories published in the interim. I'm simply weary beyond words at having my longterm emotional investments in these characters and stories being dumped in DC's trash folder over and over and over again. I just can't keep having that done to me anymore and remain a fan!

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I feel your pain, Lardy. I haven't followed the Legion since the threeboot began in 2004, except for a couple of issues of the threeboot and the pages of L3W posted online. My absence has partly been due to economic reasons, but also because I realize that DC, as a commercial company, will follow whatever trends it thinks will sell its products to its target audience (which, as I said in a previous post, appears to be 12- to 13-year-olds, not geezers like me and near-geezers like you. )

This does not mean I've given up on the Legion, per se. I continue to enjoy discussing the old stories, as we're doing here. In fact, I find new meaning in them through being able to share views with you and other fans, some of whom have widely different opinions. It's interesting to read what other fans value in Legion stories.

But I don't recognize the Legion I loved in either of the current versions. This may change in the future (as it did when I started reading the reboot in 1998, after a four-year absence), but I find that in the meantime I'm a lot less angrier and frustrated if I let sleeping monsters lie.

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Honestly, I think I would have been happy if DC had just stopped wih the Zero Hour reboot and let them be the Legion from then on. I think I really could have lived with that.

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
(I hasten to point out, though, that the Legion he seems to be championing was vastly different from the one that appeared in ADVENTURE COMICS # 247. Does this mean, per his argument, that a reboot occurred sometime in the early Silver Age of the Legion? If so, would this be the first reboot?)

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Just to re-iterate my position... I don't think the revelation that the Superboy that the Legion had been hanging with for years was really from the "Pocket Universe", and thus was not destined to grow up to be the Superman we were all familiar with, is any bigger change in continuity than the revelation that the Legion was not going to grow up to be the Adult Legion from the Silver Age stories because they were an alternate version. Thus, LSH #300 is a change in continuity of the exact same type as the change in LSH #37-38.

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I strongly disagree there, EDE. The Adult Legion story was fantastic, true, but no series that has had many, many different writers should be constricted by one of their predecessor's (albeit one of the best predecessors) ideas on what its future direction should hold. Yes, successors like Levitz and Roy Thomas were clearly in awe of the story and wanted to honor it by following up on the deaths and some of the personal developments foretold in it which lent the story validity beyond what Shooter had already followed up on during his run. But that still didn't mean that future was written in stone. If that were the case, every similar story in other series (like X-Men's "Days of Future Past" which actually involved interaction with the present-day characters, unlike the AL) would also have to be bound by them if some of the events hinted in them came to pass.

LSH 300 broke the chain, yes, but anything set in a future like AL was should be considered a possible future, especially if the series isn't guided by one hand from start to finish.

Comparing it to the Superboy thing just seems incredible to me. LSH #37-38 essentially devalued a beloved character that was the lynchpin of its established history. The story said he wasn't never who we thought he was, that he was, in fact, a pawn of the Legion's greatest enemy. For thirty damn years worth of stories, the Legion had interacted with and were inspired into being by a doppleganger?

Whether this could have made sense in the storyline or not is irrelevant--WE, the fans, knew it was a lie! WE KNEW DAMN WELL that Superboy wasn't from a Pocket Universe all that time! HE WAS THE REAL STEEL DEAL...until DC decided he wasn't anymore.

To me, that's a far, far cry from what was essentially a "What If?" story being discredited because a character prophesied to die lived instead.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
(And, Eryk, please don't take the above as any kind of personal attack on you or your views. I just went with my raw, gut reaction to the comparison. )
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
How was what came after Adv. 247 "vastly different"? Costume changes? One slight name change? No bubble on Cos's head? I don't really see it. I've read many times that the story was written as a one-off and the creators didn't expect the fan response it got.

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Whether intended or not, though, I look at 247 as Legion's pilot episode, the way pilots are made for TV in hopes that the network will like what they see enough to pick it up as a series. Often the original pilot filmed differs greatly from the version that finally ends up airing, some roles are recast, scenes reshot, new scenes added.

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Since we are discussing definitions, I'm curious about the following:

1) Do fans consider Crisis on Infintie Earth's a reboot of the DC universe or a retcon? Or something else entirely?

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2) Do people consider the post crisis Superman to be the same character as the Earth 1 Superman, or is he a different character?

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3) What about Power Girl? Is she the same character as the original Earth 2 Power Girl or a new character.

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DC currently seems to be taking the position that Power Girl is the same character. The changes to the Legion's history all appear to be ripples from COIE. Isn't it inconsistent to argue that the post crisis Power Girl is the same character, but the post crisis Legionnaires are different characters?

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Well, there was also a difference in how the Legionnaires' powers were depicted. Lightning Boy had to clap his hands in order to shoot lightning. Cosmic Boy had "magnetic eyes of super-power" which he got from drinking a serum. (No mention was made that all of his people had the same powers.)

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To add to the incongruity, subsequent stories contained flashbacks to the Legion's first encounter with Superboy (such as SUPERBOY # 204)by showing the Legionnaires wearing their established Silver Age costumes, not the ones in ADV. 247. You would think they would have good memories of what they wore on that historic occasion.

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I'm not asserting, by the way, that there was a reboot after ADV. 247. I was just responding to the poster Superboy's argument, which seems to suggest that everything from ADV. 247 through the PU was a unified, consistent timeline. It was not.

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Maybe not, but it was pretty close. That and the tale where Supergirl joined and that LSH was explained as the originals' descendants (now that was a wtf moment I had reading the Archives! ) being the only real blips beforehand...and pretty minor ones, at that.
 

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Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I wll pick just some parts of this massive text!

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Twenty years later, I can admit I was wrong. The way the Legion's been treated and jerked around over those years since the Superboy debacle, I can only point back to that event as being the first domino that fell.

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Then 5YL went off the tracks creatively, and we got the Zero Hour reboot. Surprisingly, I warmed up to it quickly and admired how it was building itself to be unreliant on present-day DCU continuity...to be "reboot-proof", I thought ironically. I think it worked so well for me because this was essentially the same cast, with the same costumes and the same personality traits, as the pre-Zero Hour SW6 Legionnaires with a new beginning and without the complicated continuity and the adult duplicates.

I enjoyed the ZH reboot for a long time. And when the creators started to stagnate, it got a shot in the arm by a fresh creative team who seemed to prove my "reboot-proof" theory. This version had legs and would be around a long time, I felt.

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Then, suddenly, the axe falls and we're in for another reboot, this time because we had a pair of hot creators, Waid and Kitson, who had a 'fresh' take. Something inside me was weary, but I loved these creators and the characters dearly. So I got excited despite myself.

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So that's why Superboy's posts hit a nerve. I feel like we're about to be jerked around one-too-many times most likely because DC has finally realized that they did a bad thing by cutting Superboy out of the Legion in the first place? Two decades later? That's way, waaaaayyyy too late, DC!

There's two things I'm gonna need from DC, or they may just lose me forever:

1) Let Shooter at least finish his story!

2) If the Lightning Saga Legion will soon be the Legion, then it had better be done really well, and they damned well better stick with it!

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

A lot of fans would prefer to see the Legionnaires remain kids forever, and DC seems to have adopted this as the easy way out: just reboot them every decade or launch multiple versions of the Legion at the same time, and that way we can please everybody. But any grade schooler knows that attempts to please everybody end up pleasing no one.

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Originally posted by Chemical King:
And with all the discussing about Superboy, until today niobody could answer my question:

If they had to take Superboy out, why FIRST doing the Pocket Universe story and THEN doing the Valor retcon??? Why was it necessary to complicate things if the Legion Superboy was already "explained away"?

I never got that...

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Originally posted by Ricardo:
I never liked the ZH LSH because it was... just another teenage superpowered book. Sex, politics, history... All gone.

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Wait a minute: wasn't Johns ALSO involved in this reboot? After all, he was behind Titans at that time, wasn't he? So, Johns is also to blame on that! And if you all noticed, the threeboot is actually the one closer to the original LSH concept as possible without including Superman. Johns just had to wait longer to get his wishes...

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1) Shooter should continue to be the writer. He KNOWS how to pace a story and develop characters like none of most current top writers (who seemed to be stuck in "a shock per issue" to actually intrigue us anymore).

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2) Oh, you know DC (or anyone) can't promise that!

But my guess is that whatever happened to LSH after Crisis will be considered Elseworld/Parallel Universe/Earth 86 or whatever. And the Time Trapper will be the main responsible for all these time anomalies (and - bingo - that's where Glorithverse/ Pocket Universe / 1,000,000 will reappear - after all, George Pérez said he will draw as many LSH as possible - not just the 3 worlds mentioned...). In the end, Johns will have his Superboy and the LSH back at the point he wanted. I just doubt that the other concepts (those mentioned above) will come along.

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We'll see, my fear is that DC will only mess it up even moreso with L3W. It seems likely they'll either eliminate all but one version or sloppily try to amalgamate them all into one. I'd personally rather see the disparate versions all have a chance to continue on and hence have the opportunity to be revisited. I'm not optomistic...
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
I highly reccomend that book by the way...it's full off all sorts of interesting details...

Curt Swan? Absolutely hated drawing the Legion. So much so that he threatened to retire if DC tried to put him back on the book after Byrne took over Superman.


Al Plastino? The artistic co-creator of the Legion? Doesn't even remember creating them. Didn't even recognize them when he was shown them(his version). He actually had to examine the work to make sure it was his own, and he still didn't remmember creating them.


I guess my dream of getting Al(who's still alive and working) to do a 50th anniverisary Legion Painting of ALL the Legionaires from every version is out of the question


Yeap...we've always been the redheaded stepchild.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

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In a nutshell...everything done with the Legion has been a result of people that don't know the Legion, don't like the Legion, or don't care about the Legion, being allowed to trample all over it.

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Originally posted by Superboy:


I hope Ricardo reads this too.

I'm going to give you this story directly from the mouths of Keith Giffen, Tom and Mary Bierbaum, and Mark Waid...as told in the Legion companion.

Disclaimer: I'd like to give both you and Ricardo a warning that this is going to be a far cry from what you think lead to the creation of your beloved 5YG Legion. I'm not saying you shouldn't like it BTW, and I'm also not saying it wasn't good. But I am saying it was produced in an environment where there was little or no communication between the Legion team and DC brass, with the Legion team basically being kept in the dark, and their hands were tied creatively at basically every turn. Under the cirumstances what they produced was very good, the fact that he even attempted it is pretty amazing, but the cirumstances that lead to the mass confusion were impossible to avoid when looking back in hindsight. [...]

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

We'll see, my fear is that DC will only mess it up even moreso with L3W. It seems likely they'll either eliminate all but one version or sloppily try to amalgamate them all into one. I'd personally rather see the disparate versions all have a chance to continue on and hence have the opportunity to be revisited. I'm not optomistic...

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Just to re-iterate my position... I don't think the revelation that the Superboy that the Legion had been hanging with for years was really from the "Pocket Universe", and thus was not destined to grow up to be the Superman we were all familiar with, is any bigger change in continuity than the revelation that the Legion was not going to grow up to be the Adult Legion from the Silver Age stories because they were an alternate version. Thus, LSH #300 is a change in continuity of the exact same type as the change in LSH #37-38.

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I strongly disagree there, EDE. The Adult Legion story was fantastic, true, but no series that has had many, many different writers should be constricted by one of their predecessor's (albeit one of the best predecessors) ideas on what its future direction should hold. Yes, successors like Levitz and Roy Thomas were clearly in awe of the story and wanted to honor it by following up on the deaths and some of the personal developments foretold in it which lent the story validity beyond what Shooter had already followed up on during his run. But that still didn't mean that future was written in stone. If that were the case, every similar story in other series (like X-Men's "Days of Future Past" which actually involved interaction with the present-day characters, unlike the AL) would also have to be bound by them if some of the events hinted in them came to pass.

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LSH 300 broke the chain, yes, but anything set in a future like AL was should be considered a possible future, especially if the series isn't guided by one hand from start to finish.

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Comparing it to the Superboy thing just seems incredible to me. LSH #37-38 essentially devalued a beloved character that was the lynchpin of its established history. The story said he wasn't never who we thought he was, that he was, in fact, a pawn of the Legion's greatest enemy. For thirty damn years worth of stories, the Legion had interacted with and were inspired into being by a doppleganger?

Whether this could have made sense in the storyline or not is irrelevant--WE, the fans, knew it was a lie! WE KNEW DAMN WELL that Superboy wasn't from a Pocket Universe all that time! HE WAS THE REAL STEEL DEAL...until DC decided he wasn't anymore.

To me, that's a far, far cry from what was essentially a "What If?" story being discredited because a character prophesied to die lived instead.

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But what you are pointing to is mostly just a difference in scope between the two events. And I agree about that. But I think you are greatly minimizing the extent to which the Adult Legion stories were taken as gospel by Legion fans as well as creators. Read the v3 letter columns, and note the fact that even well after LSH #300 fans are writing in suggesting Levitz go ahead and kill Shadow Lass... after all they KNEW DAMN WELL that she was eventually going to buy it.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Roughly speaking, I'd distinguish the following types of continuity changes (leaving aside disputes about what they should be named):

Type 1: Unrevealed events from the past are revealed, that are nonetheless consistent with everything that has happened thus far. Ex: ordinary flashbacks.

Type 2: Unrevealed events from the past are revealed, that are mostly consistent with everything that has happened previously, but give a radically different spin on a particular character or events. Ex: R.J. Brande being revealed to be a Durlan.

Type 3: Moving timeline stuff. So events that happened in Korea now happen in Vietnam or the Gulf War or whatever, but with a minimum of change in the actual events.

Type 4: New stories feature elements that contradict some established fact that has not been referenced in quite some time. These were quite common during the Goldern/Silver/Bronze Age. Ex: Lois Lane having a niece who stops appearing in stories, and then ten years later her only sister turns up single and childless.

Type 5: Established facts about a characters "future" are changed, while their "past" is left intact. Ex: Superboy not growing up to be Superman, the Legion not growing up to be the "Adult Legion".

Type 6: Deliberate changes to significant events of a character's past. Major stories happened, but not in exactly the way they actually happened as published. Ex: 5YL Legion, Post-Crisis JLA, etc.

Type 7: The entirety of a characters history is wiped away, beginning everything afresh. A complete reboot. Ex: Byrne Superman; Reboot and Threeboot Legions.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Thanks for your long posting, Superboy. It's been some time that i read the Companion. Some things in its coherences were new to me, but the question that stays unanswered is...

WHY?

Why did TPTB suddenly change their politics? Why was it such a big problem if there was a Superboy - or an EL - mentioned in the Legion? There seems to be no reason behind this decision, as the Legion never threatened to attack Supermans flagship status...

Considering all these facts, it still is quite remarkable that 5YL was - and still is - such a good read. I don't want to start about what it might have been without all this silly ruckus. Though I still think that the Legion Clone idea would have been the ultimate neckbreaker, and that's the only thing I'm happy about - when Giffen left, he took his clone idea with him... Spiderman Clone debacle anyone?

Well, basically, we got another debacle instead...
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Superman sales had totally tanked in the 80s... besides recruiting Byrne and relaunching Supes sans Superboy, the S books also had complete sprockwads of editors who threw their weight around solely because they could.

For DC, restoring Supes to predominance trumped other concerns; "continuity" was even more of a carpet-to-be-pulled out from under anyone than it is today.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Roughly speaking, I'd distinguish the following types of continuity changes (leaving aside disputes about what they should be named): . . .

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Earth 1 Superman was as much a tragic figure as Batman...you could identify with him. Not only did he lose his planet and his biological parents, he lost his Earth parents at a young age, he stood by poweruless and watched them die, just like Batman, but he reacted in a completely different way to it than Batman...and his parents being dead was part of his origin from the onset. His parents were never part of the picture outside of Superboy until the Byrne revamp.

Personally I don't like the Byrne revamp as to me it made Superman entirely unsympathetic...it made him literally the luckiest character in the Universe that had everything going for him...Superman is already difficult enough to relate to...and Byrne's revamp made it even more difficult IMO.


His Krypton was better off dead, he was lucky to escape it, and his parents were alive and healthy...it made him look like this big superficial jock. And that was not the case with the Pre Crisis Superman.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Well, there was also a difference in how the Legionnaires' powers were depicted. . . .

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There are certain examples of that kind of thing in other media . . .

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quote:

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Same goes for Legion, especially as they'd only had the one appearance portrayed that way. I'd say their are very, very few Legion fans, if any, who were hurt by that minor tweak compared to those hurt by what was done to Superboy and his legacy.

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I'd question whether or not anyone was actually "hurt" by any of the changes the Legion has gone through. We may not like the changes; we may get angry and frustrated with some of them, but if it goes beyond that, we have only ourselves to blame for taking it too seriously.

Also, whether or not anyone was hurt by a change is irrelevant to the fact that a change actually occurred. Since Eryk is convincingly arguing that the PU Superboy retcon was of the same type of change as the Adult Legion retcon, I think the same logic applies here: The LSH, as depicted in ADV. 247, is fundamentally different than the LSH depicted later in the Silver Age. The fact that this change affected only one story (albeit the Legion's first story!) or that no one seems to mind does not make it any less of a change.

This, however, does not make it a reboot (a Type 7 change, in Eryk's parlance), but more of a Type 6 change.

quote:

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This was probably done to avoid confusing fans who weren't around for Adv. 247 and to avoid having to explain the discrepancies like Trek fans eventually forced producers of that franchise to explain the Klingon thing.

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I'm sure that it was. But a discrepancy is still a discrepancy.
 

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Posted by Colossal Boy on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chemical King:
Thanks for your long posting, Superboy. It's been some time that i read the Companion. Some things in its coherences were new to me, but the question that stays unanswered is...

WHY?

Why did TPTB suddenly change their politics? Why was it such a big problem if there was a Superboy - or an EL - mentioned in the Legion? There seems to be no reason behind this decision, as the Legion never threatened to attack Supermans flagship status...

Considering all these facts, it still is quite remarkable that 5YL was - and still is - such a good read. I don't want to start about what it might have been without all this silly ruckus. Though I still think that the Legion Clone idea would have been the ultimate neckbreaker, and that's the only thing I'm happy about - when Giffen left, he took his clone idea with him... Spiderman Clone debacle anyone?

Well, basically, we got another debacle instead...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Colossal Boy:
That period was too far in the past for me to remember who TPTB were at time, but just who was
it that kept saying yes to everything the Superman team wanted (they also pulled Superman out of the JLA retroactively) and no to the Legion team. I know Jeanette Kahn was still the big cheese back then and Paul Levitz was just starting to climb the corporate ladder at DC. Can anyone name names? Just who were the decision makers? Who took Giffen out to lunch and told him he should reboot the Legion?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
For one thing, it's not just Shooter's one story that's at issue here. The Adult Legion appeared a number of times in the Silver Age. And their appearance weren't just a "What if?" or "Imaginary" story or something like that. They were a part of the Silver Age DC continuity.

Sure, the existence and revealed details about the adult Legion constrained writers. This fact went back to the death and resurrection of Lightning Lad, a storyline which was driven in part by the fact that we "knew" that the Adult Lightning Man was married to Saturn Woman.

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I'm sorry--I remembered it wrong, Eryk. But even googling it, every link I sampled goes back to Shooter's two-parter, so I assumed that was the only "Adult Legion" story. But I showed my non-encyclopedic knowledge of Legion history by forgetting the context of the earliest appearances of the adult LSV and the adult LSH counterparts.

Am I correct, at least, in that the teenage versions never met their adult LSH or adult LSV counterparts? That would in essence give writers an "out" particularly back in the days of the multiverse, if they wanted, by explainingg the adults Superman met may not have been from the same Earth. However, that could open up another slimy can of worms, so I won't go too far down that path.

In any case I doubt that pointing out these were essentially Superman stories would dissuade you from further debate. However, many sources that I've skimmed before this posting refer to the appearance with Tarik the Mute and the school as the first canonical appearance of the LSV. That implies that the early appearances you refer to are 'not' considered canonical.

And the most pivotal Adult Legion story, the one written by Shooter, was self-contained without time travel or interaction with Superman like the others. Obviously, that story contained the bulk of the glimpses into the future (other than the Garth/Imra marriage possibly being referenced in the prior stories?), so it could be argued it wasn't necessarily canonical and more like a "What If?" scenario (albeit one seemingly validated by 'coming true' in subsequent stories).

quote:

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But here's another title/property that was equally as constrained by the character's revealed future history: Superboy. Complaining about the constraints that were imposed on the Legion by its need to conform to the Adult Legion stories is exactly like complaining about Superboy's stories lacking drama because we all "knew" the fates of the characters: that Ma and Pa Kent would eventually die and Clark would move to Metropolis, etc.

There's no essential difference in kind between revealing that the teen Legion whose adventure we'd been reading wouldn't grow up to be the adult Legion whose stories we read in the 60s and revealing that the teen Superboy whose adventures we'd been reading wouldn't grow up to be the Adult Superman of the mainstream DCU.

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quote:

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But what you are pointing to is mostly just a difference in scope between the two events.

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quote:

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If it were up to me... I think they should've just declared that the whole Legion exists in a "Pocket Universe" after Crisis, and just cut all ties with the post-Crisis DCU.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad:
I prefer the Legion without Superboy.

(Ducks)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Am I correct, at least, in that the teenage versions never met their adult LSH or adult LSV counterparts?

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quote:

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However, many sources that I've skimmed before this posting refer to the appearance with Tarik the Mute and the school as the first canonical appearance of the LSV. That implies that the early appearances you refer to are 'not' considered canonical.

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quote:

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And the most pivotal Adult Legion story, the one written by Shooter, was self-contained without time travel or interaction with Superman like the others.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad:
I prefer the Legion without Superboy.

(Ducks)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:
This situation of "greatest on his own turf" can, in a more metafictional way, be used to explain why I prefer the concept of Valor to the earlier Mon-El. After 1989, in the Legion's world, Superman was Earth's greatest hero... and Valor was the galaxy's greatest hero. He didn't diminish Superman in any way. On the galactic scale, Superman and Valor were equivalent to what Batman and Superman were on the global scale. In this case, because Valor was a much less popular character than Superman, it was interestingly anti-metafictional. DC had assigned great importance to a relatively unpopular character. There was a reason we hadn't seen more of him: he wasn't especially important to Earth. Our perspective as readers was limited. We were told that the heroes that were so great to us weren't necessarily so important in the rest of the universe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire:
Here is my opinion ,Any Legion not having a connection with Kal-El in their history will fail.
Post-Crisis Legion
5 Years Later
Zero Hour Re-boot
And it looks like the Three-Boot won't be far behind these other atempts of doing the Legion without him.

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Post-Crisis Legion and 5 years Later have not failed - not sales-wise and much less storywise. TM Legion failed and ZH failed on both accounts. It's got nothing to do with Superman. It's got to do with bad storytelling.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
A Supe-character can help sales, but not for long without a good story.

There's nothing wrong with having a Supe-connection; that's where Legion did come from, after all. That does not mean every Legion story needs a Supe-related connection, but it is part of the fabric.

And it doesn't have to be on the teen level; I'm really loving that an adult Kal can have renewed Legion ties. Fans circa the 1960s were teends reading about teens. Fans of today are alrgely older, and can relate to childhood/teenhood friends drifting in and out of one's life.

TMK could have been just as great with a Supe connection; it was great without one, too.
There's no need to mistake one element of flavor for the entire recipe.
 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
Hell even when Gerry Conway and Joe Staton did the Legion it had more fan support than any of the Re-Boots.

You take away the Loyal Fans who stuck with the Legion after they dismantled it starting with The Pocket Universe Story and then those who stayed after all the Retcons and Re-Boots.

I doubt those Legion's would ever have even gotten past their first year,Just look at all the other titles in comics that have never made it.

The Original Legion never got cancelled due to poor sales,It even took two titles away from it's most recognizable member Kal-El,And was one of DC's better selling titles for almost 30 years.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
Fun discussion, one of my favorite Legion debates too.

Superboy seldom actually enhances a story but the familiar always has a chance of attracting a casual reader to try the title.

Honestly I always like Kal being used sparingly and being shown as being humbled in the presence of his equals the inclusion of the character both humanizes Kal-El and lends prestige to the team. In the Legion he's not always the toughest, the smartest or the fastest. He's just one of the guys. Virtually a different character than the ultra-competent king of the super heroes depicted in other Superman comics. I find him WAY more likeable as an insecure teenager.

I don't seem to be alone in that either. I really enjoyed the recent scenes of young Clark being a misunderstood loner and the object of ridicule by the popular jock IN crowd. Poor Clarkie. I feel for the guy. Lucky thing for him he met some other super powered kids to hang out with, eh?

But that's not really the point to adding the S shield into the title. The idea was always to persuade the regular public to throw down 12 or 15 cents, later a quarter and now $3-$5 for a Supersomebody comic book. When the Legion reads well and keeps the super teen on the covers we tend to keep those extra fans around. IMO it takes a heck of a lot more work to keep the buying public interested with the book as a stand-alone. If Superman sells the book then why force it?

This quote is from Stan Lee and has nothing to do with the Legion yet at the same time it has everything to do with the Legion,

quote:

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I don't care if they buy them for the staples as long as they buy 'em.

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quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
[QBYet the original Legion was simply inspired by the world's greatest hero when he was a boy (i.e the same age as them, Q: why are teenagers superheroes? A: because look at all the good Superboy did).[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:

quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
[QBYet the original Legion was simply inspired by the world's greatest hero when he was a boy (i.e the same age as them, Q: why are teenagers superheroes? A: because look at all the good Superboy did).

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A little while ago, I realized that this connection - or at least the necessity for it - was fallacious. It occured when I encountered the suggestion that the Teen Titans could've inspired the Legion. I realized that kids don't look up to other kids as much as they do to adults. The Legion could've been inspired by SuperMAN. A way DC could've conceivably got around the problem in the no-Superboy era. Until the ridiculous no-mention-of-Superman directive, that is. [/QB]

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A good point. Of course, this begs the question of why the Legion isn't called the Legion of Titanic Heroes or some such.

I wonder if the idea that kids don't look up to other kids still holds true when there's a thousand years' remove involved. That is, when I was a kid, we read about Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary (who was supposedly a teenager when she gave birth to Jesus) as historical role models for how kids were supposed to behave, what they should believe, etc. I wonder if the same reverence would hold true for the Legion and Superboy and Supergirl since the latter weren't (at the time of the Legion's founding) contemporaries.
 

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Posted by rickshaw1 on :
 
I have to go with history.

It wasn't the titans, or Batman, or the Green Lantern Corps. It was Superboy, in that goofy little story that captured lightning in a bottle. Superboy doesn't have to appear in every single story, but the legion never feels right to me without him.

Supergirl didn't cut it. The issues around 255 or so where he left just didn't...well, they just seemed lacking to me.

The legion was inspired by the greatest of the ancient champions of good, Superboy who became Superman.

And like it was said above, i like the Superboy character much more than the Superman character. Superboy was still being formed, while Superman was always a little too...perfect.

I still remember a line "imagine knowing you have the power to shatter worlds and knowing it isn't enough" to paraphrase. It was against the fatal five on Mordan, i think it was. Superboy didn't save the day completely, it took the skills and teamwork of a Legion of kids.

I loved it.

But without Superboy, the legion loses something. Don't ask me why, they just...do.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I didn't feel this way for the longest time but began to change my mind about three or four years ago, and I think that change in opinion directly is the result of (A) rereading the entire Legion run (all boots) from start to finish a second time and (B) the almost ten years of discussing the Legion of Super-Heroes with other Legion fans here and elsewhere on line before. And what I feel is that the Legion absolutely must have that Superman/Superboy connection to maintain the spirit of the series.

That being said, I don't think Kal-El needs to be an active Legionnaire in every issue. I thought perhaps his most effective appearance after leaving the Legion was when he and Supergirl showed up in Great Darkness to battle Darkseid in the finale--it really felt like something special there. A very conservative use of Superboy with the Legion, not overdoing it, could work to the series' benefit in a variety of ways: a sense of building from where the Legion's beginnings, a larger connection to the Superma mythos (and thereby the DC universe), and a constant reminder of the Silver Age science-fiction origins of the Legion mythos which should always be present (albeit in various forms).

The entire idea of the utopian future of the Legion hinges somewhat on the inclusion of Superboy in its mythos. In a way, knowing full well that Superboy would one day grow to be Superman, the greatest hero of them all, was in parallel to the world one day growing into the utopian future of the Legion. Remove Superboy from the Legion and things grow tougher--remove Superboy from Legion history and the utopian future soon after changes to something much less so, even dystopian at times.

The Superman mythos had suffered just as painfully as the Legion via this disconnection. By removing the Legion aspect (and various other Silver Age Earth-1 themes), DC has tried to connect Superman closer to Wonder Woman and other DC properties, and there is no doubt that at times it does not feel right. It actually feels forced and lacking veracity at times.

To get back to what I first said, I used to feel the opposite of this for years. But I've thought about this topic a great deal, specifically for the last four years or so (since I reread the whole run) and I'm quite certain the Legion needs a firm connection to Superman/Superboy. I still, however, feel the connection to the rest of the DCU should end there.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Funny how our latest topic here in the Roundtable has strayed (or evolved?) from where it began, as the original topic the Roundtable grew from strayed...

But, really the Superboy thing started mostly as conjecture as to whether the Pocket Universe retcon actually may have been the first reboot of the Legion, albeit a somewhat subtler one than the Zero Hour one and the like. And it was also used to, at the very least, show how that retcon/reboot was the first (and possibly most damaging) domino to fall in a series of dominoes that have nearly destroyed the Legion and its fanbase.

But obviously that leads to the present focus, which is about whether Superboy should be a part of Legion history, and if so, to what extent should he be involved? Most posters appear to want the Supes tie but with Supes used sparingly.

Allow Spider-Lardy to spin his web on this debate into a different direction and see what takes shape:

Okay, what happened starting with the Pocket Universe retcon/reboot is done, as are all the other changes that happened. Bottom line is we can't turn back time and erase what happened in v3 #37-38 and reverse what happened and all the series of events (dominoes) that followed.

But Geoff Johns is trying to work his continuity magic and give us back: a) a Legion with ties to young Superman and b) the version who Supes has ties with resembles the LSH as we knew them circa the Levitz era.

My question is: Is Johns' attempt at a fix not waaaay too late? I mean, really, really too late? Granted, Johns has a decent track record with this sort of thing, but it feels like it's just way too much in an already-complicated Legion continuity mess!

In any case DC will do whatever DC wants to do, assuming that this latest "fix" is gonna be the one to ignite sells on the Legion. Of course all the other "fixes" were supposed to do this anyway. Uh...anybody got a scorecard here?

I know it's too late to rant and rave, but given my druthers, I'd prefer to give Shooter a chance to spin his stories and build up the fanbase. There are no guarantees, but good stories is what the Legion needs most of all. Why not let one of the masters of a good Legion story have a year or two to work his magic and see what happens before pulling the plug and aborting the whole thing AGAIN? Hell, why couldn't Shooter's take on the 3Boot Legion have been the one to have ties with young Kal-El? Would that have just made too much sense, DC?

Instead, we'll have L3W and probably with it the latest "real" version will be officially unveiled. And I'll just bet 3Boot (along with Shooter and Manapul) will be back in the trash bin of futility that the Legion's stories go into once fickle DC decides to give it another makeover.

In that line of thinking I'm having very little trouble believing the rumor about Shooter being out is true and that our devotion will be rewarded the way it always seems to be the last couple decades.

Cynicism, thy name is Lard Lad...today, at least.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:

quote:

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And the most pivotal Adult Legion story, the one written by Shooter, was self-contained without time travel or interaction with Superman like the others.

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Um, we are talking about the Adult Legion story published in ADV. 354-355, right? This is "the one written by Shooter"? Superman plays a major role in that story and travels from his own time to visit the Legion.

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Ooops! Sorry Fallible Lardy is definitely fallible where his memory of certain stories is involved. Apologize. I don't think it totally obliterates my argument about the standalone nature of the story, but it definitely weakened it.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
Ricardo, all I want to say is that based on Keith Giffen's own words he felt the title was falling apart by issue 5. Waid and the Bierbaum's mentioned that issue as well. Issue 5 was the Mon-El retcon. It was forced on them by DC and the Superman creative team right after the launch. And Giffen had to completely retool on the fly.

He felt he was being interefered with by DC as well as the fans, and he quit the book multiple times, including a period of months early in the run. By his own admission he quit it many times, for hours, days, weeks and months. I do not see that as this smooth fluid creative environment.

Reading it at the time, it actually felt to me like the way the creators describe it..a huge confusing why are they doing that cluster.....and it felt like someone who hated the Legion was dictating some of the changes. That's what Giffen took the brunt of...and I don't think he realizes it to this day. Does anyone really think the fan backlash was because Dream Girl's hair was different?

Yes they made lemonaid from lemons well, but I just don't see how anyone can say Giffen got to tell the story he wanted to tell, the way he wanted to tell it. All he got to do really was age them 5 years and put them through some minor-major character changes.

And he even said his Legion were meant to clones, not the real Legion.

That's just my opinion and I realize I am not going to change yours, but that book was a pretty big departure from the original Legion in tone, in continuity, in everything. Not for one second did it ever feel like the original Legion to me at even the most cursory level. I'd have probably enjoyed it a lot more if they hadn't called it Legion, but Giffen said he was banking on the Legion name to sell it.


I applaud him attempting to salvage the continuity, but truthfully, the matter was taken out of his hands, much to his chagrin I imagine. And even though he himself did not reboot the Legion and fought against it, the Superman Team did reboot it.


Oh yeah...Giffen also said he destroyed the Earth/Moon to vent his anger.

[ May 20, 2008, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
Back toi the topic that was being discussed...IMO, retconning Superboy was a huge retcon.

The Legion was spun entirely out of the Superboy mythos.


I know we all enjoyed Eryk Davis Ester's favorite Legionaires polls...and I know some got a chuckle out of Superboy's poor showing on some of them...


But what made me chuckle is that the character that dominanted every single poll...

Was named Brainiac 5.
As in the Superman Villian Brainiac.

In at least one incarnation was in love with Supergirl.


And he was created Jerry Siegel.

Tied together on so many different levels. Of course it was massive retcon. In terms of commercial appeal...Superboy is not some obscure Legionaire(and that's not comics reality either), he's the single most important Legionaire.

And you know what's really funny about the Pocket Uni story?

Superboy was in his own comic(short lived) and on TV within months of that retcon. Supergirl was soon back...a new version of Superboy was back a few years later.


So I ask you...what did that retcon accomplish? It limited bigname characters appearing in the Legion...that's what it accomplished. It removed the Legion from the Superman Family, and basically forced them to stand on their own with no strong and reliable tether to any known Universe...that's a tough sell with any team, in any era. Yeah they survived...but they didn't flourish as they once did.

All it did was hurt the Legion, that's all it accomplished.

And Superboy never went away...except from the Legion. He was on TV months after the reton...he's been on TV for 8 years now or so. He's also the top villian in the DC Universe now...

Not some minor character...especially to the Legion.

[ May 20, 2008, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
Eryk I agree with of the points you made concerning comics audiences...


But I know one thing...as I was watching Iron Man a few weeks ago, the thought of how small the potential comics audience is was not crossing my mind at that moment...it was the exact opposite in fact.

People still read books(heck we read now more than ever thanks to the Web). They still read magazines, they still watch TV, movies etc...the only thing new since the Silver Age are video games and the web...but those haven't hurt book sales...I mean Harry Potter seems to do pretty well. So why would they hurt comics?

No newstand hurts, targeting older and older audiences hurts...but the audience is still there, if the comics are good.


I got a lot more to say...but for now I'll just say, the best selling Arhcie Comic(which is a digest) does over 100k sales per month in US Sales...which would place it in the top 10 of the direct market...and that 100k figure is roughly 25-40% of what Archie sold in the Silver Age....


The Legion sells roughly about 5% what it sold in the Silver Age, and struggles to stay in the top 60 books.


Archie is kicking it's butt...basically.

BTW, I'm not saying we should go after the Archie audience...but I'm saying I think some appeals trancend generations...a recognizable character will trancend generations.

I've been doing some research...near as I can tell, no version of Superboy and the Legion was ever anything less than a top 10 comic...at any point, in any era...not just a top 10 DC, but a top 10 in all of comics.


Belive it..or not.

I'll be posting some of these numbers at some point this week. Admittedly...I don't have all the numbers yet.


PS: Not to cram Superboy down you guys throats...but he is important. For the record Mon-El is my true favorite Legionaire, the retcon bothered me as much for what it did to Mon-El as for what it did to the Legion. I liked the introverted enigma...not by the by numbers hero Superboy imitation...why use an imitation? And who is going to replace Mon-El?

[ May 20, 2008, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 

 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
In order for that chart to be valid, one would have to look at sales for the entire comic book industry and see how they compare. What's important is seeing the trend of comics sales vs. the trend in Legion sales.

We all know comics in 1960 were hugely more profitable, but that's because of a variety of reasons. If you go back 10 years earlier, one rough estimate says one in four children collected comics in 1954 in the United States. I know because I used that fact in a grad school history paper once.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
In order for that chart to be valid, one would have to look at sales for the entire comic book industry and see how they compare. What's important is seeing the trend of comics sales vs. the trend in Legion sales.

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quote:

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We all know comics in 1960 were hugely more profitable, but that's because of a variety of reasons. If you go back 10 years earlier, one rough estimate says one in four children collected comics in 1954 in the United States. I know because I used that fact in a grad school history paper once. [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Ricardo, all I want to say is that based on Keith Giffen's own words he felt the title was falling apart by issue 5. Waid and the Bierbaum's mentioned that issue as well. Issue 5 was the Mon-El retcon. It was forced on them by DC and the Superman creative team right after the launch. And Giffen had to completely retool on the fly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
He felt he was being interefered with by DC as well as the fans, and he quit the book multiple times, including a period of months early in the run. By his own admission he quit it many times, for hours, days, weeks and months. I do not see that as this smooth fluid creative environment.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Reading it at the time, it actually felt to me like the way the creators describe it..a huge confusing why are they doing that cluster.....and it felt like someone who hated the Legion was dictating some of the changes. That's what Giffen took the brunt of...and I don't think he realizes it to this day. Does anyone really think the fan backlash was because Dream Girl's hair was different?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Yes they made lemonaid from lemons well, but I just don't see how anyone can say Giffen got to tell the story he wanted to tell, the way he wanted to tell it. All he got to do really was age them 5 years and put them through some minor-major character changes.

And he even said his Legion were meant to clones, not the real Legion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
That's just my opinion and I realize I am not going to change yours, but that book was a pretty big departure from the original Legion in tone, in continuity, in everything. Not for one second did it ever feel like the original Legion to me at even the most cursory level. I'd have probably enjoyed it a lot more if they hadn't called it Legion, but Giffen said he was banking on the Legion name to sell it.


I applaud him attempting to salvage the continuity, but truthfully, the matter was taken out of his hands, much to his chagrin I imagine. And even though he himself did not reboot the Legion and fought against it, the Superman Team did reboot it.


Oh yeah...Giffen also said he destroyed the Earth/Moon to vent his anger.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire:
I think Geoff John's has got the right idea when it comes to bringing back something closer to the Original Legion's continuity.

The Pre-Crisis Legion and their overall concept endured and had many writers who built upon what was written before them.

Shooter built upon what Siegel and Hamilton did.

Levitz built upon what Shooter did.

and now John's is building upon what Levitz did.

As for 5 Years Later while it had used some of the Pre-Crisis history it was Giffen's vision and Giffen's vision alone,once he was gone so was his Legion,and then we get something like Legion on the Run.

One thing I do know is that Giffen is not going to return to the Legion and stay forever,So why should I invest in a Legion that will live and die with him,When I can have a Legion that will endure.

There are some people out there that seem to think there was no Legion before Giffen had written them.
As for me I seem to think there was no Legion after Giffen had written them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

1) As I stated before, I'd like to see Shooter be given more of a chance to continue to work his magic on 3Boot since I like what I've seen so far. Good writing is always a good start to building sales, though far from a guarantee.

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quote:

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2) Can you really go home again? In many, many cases, we've learned the answer is no. Preboot continuity has been dead for around 15 years. Bringing it back now really feels like about 13 years too late.

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3) Going back to that continuity means sacrificing a lot of the characterizations that we've gained since. I mean just look what's been done with Lyle and Trips, for example, since Zero Hour! Pre-Crisis Legion? Lyle's dead and Trips is the retired (and less interesting, IMO)Duo Damsel. These characters have been absolute revelations since Zero Hour--are we ready to put them back in the box?

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4) As has been mentioned, does reinserting Superman mean we'll get a "Superman & the Legion of Super Heroes" book? I like having Supes as a part of their history, but I'm not ready to go back to him dominating the stories again, something he hasn't done in around thirty years.

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quote:

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5) How long will DC stick to this version? If they do this and it fails, will DC just dump the Legion once and for all?

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Those are five off the top of my head. Any to add to the list? Anyone want to start itemizing the counter-arguments? [/QB]

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Originally posted by Superboy:
And Superman and the Legion just isn't quite the same as Superboy and the Legion IMO. So I'd rather it be Superboy than Superman....

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Yeah, but the problem is that DC can't currently use the name "Superboy" because of the lawsuit being pursued by the estate of Jerry Siegel.

So I guess you'll have to use another posting I.D.!
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 

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This debate is not new...if you look in the lettercols of like, Adventure #304, there is some guy saying he doesn't like Superman overshadowing the Legion...he's saying the exact same things Legion fans say now...


I think that guy, like he is now, is a typical hardcore Legion Fan, and I think Superman isn't really that important to the hardcore Legion fan, but I don't think the audience of hardcore Legion Fans is substantial enough for DC to commit to it any longer...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
And Superman and the Legion just isn't quite the same as Superboy and the Legion IMO. So I'd rather it be Superboy than Superman....

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Yeah, but the problem is that DC can't currently use the name "Superboy" because of the lawsuit being pursued by the estate of Jerry Siegel.

So I guess you'll have to use another posting I.D.!

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LOL! Actually, based on the latest ruling DC is soon going to be having just as many problems using the Superman name as they are the Superboy name. This entire debate may soon be rendered moot for all time...
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I agree on what Superboy said about Johns: While I'm not familiar with most of his JSA stuff (yet! I'm going to hunt this stuff down issue by issue ), I really thought that his Sinestro Corps War was simply splendid - a shining beacon of light in an industry plagued by Countdown and Planet Hulk...

So if Johns is as respectfull to the Legion characters as George Perez pointed out in a recent interview, we might actually be hopeful for what's to come...
 

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Posted by doublechinner on :
 
This is a useful discussion, to be sure. And I HAVE really enjoyed most of Johns writing in the last 6 years (having started with his first JSA trade in 2002). I enjoyed his Action Legion. The characters were written almost pitch perfect. But the costumes were hideous 80s pastiche and the science fictional elements were somewhat lacking. It felt TOO nostalgic, TOO old-fashioned. Not enough contemporary edge to it. I've truly appreciated the effort that Waid, Kitson, Bedard, Calero, Shooter and Manapul have put into giving the 3Boot a more contemporary futuristic feel, if that makes any sense. Johns's Action stories read a bit more like 1060s pre-Shooter stories in terms of their science fictional elements. So, I want a Legion with a connection to Superman, with the camaraderie that Johns can clearly write, but with the more contemporary feel of the 3Boot. And the Legionnaires HAVE to be kids/young adults. They CAN'T be Superman's age, unless the current DCU Supes is 21 years old. Nor do I particularly want to read a young Legion with an older Superman. That has bad boy band creepy connotations to it. Oh, and those Franks costumes HAVE to go.
 

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Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Going back to that continuity means sacrificing a lot of the characterizations that we've gained since. I mean just look what's been done with Lyle and Trips, for example, since Zero Hour! Pre-Crisis Legion? Lyle's dead and Trips is the retired (and less interesting, IMO)Duo Damsel. These characters have been absolute revelations since Zero Hour--are we ready to put them back in the box?

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:
Here's the problem: the best versions of each character aren't all from the same universe. Not that I want to see an amalgamated Legion - that won't satisfy anyone. But in most comic series, concepts get refined and revised over time. And the early versions aren't always the best.

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Originally posted by doublechinner:
This is a useful discussion, to be sure. And I HAVE really enjoyed most of Johns writing in the last 6 years (having started with his first JSA trade in 2002). I enjoyed his Action Legion. The characters were written almost pitch perfect. But the costumes were hideous 80s pastiche and the science fictional elements were somewhat lacking. It felt TOO nostalgic, TOO old-fashioned. Not enough contemporary edge to it. I've truly appreciated the effort that Waid, Kitson, Bedard, Calero, Shooter and Manapul have put into giving the 3Boot a more contemporary futuristic feel, if that makes any sense. Johns's Action stories read a bit more like 1060s pre-Shooter stories in terms of their science fictional elements. So, I want a Legion with a connection to Superman, with the camaraderie that Johns can clearly write, but with the more contemporary feel of the 3Boot. And the Legionnaires HAVE to be kids/young adults. They CAN'T be Superman's age, unless the current DCU Supes is 21 years old. Nor do I particularly want to read a young Legion with an older Superman. That has bad boy band creepy connotations to it. Oh, and those Franks costumes HAVE to go.

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I think you make a valid point on the costumes...

I remember when Cockrum put out his costumes they blew the socks off all the old style comics costumes from the Silver Age.


And it was an even better contrast when they were on the same page with the iconic cosume of Superman.

I remember the first time I saw the Cockrum Legion...I was like, who are all those freaks with Superboy? I didn't even recognize them as the Adventure Legion I had first read in some old comics lying around my grandmother's house.


I'd like to see some artist just come out with the most aboslutely freakist costumes he could come up with...I mean, this is a thousand years in the future after all.

Not a fan of Frank's redesigns as they aren't particularly imaginative or inventive. I like a lot of what Kitson did, even though they are very Swanian in nature IMO, and Francis has dome some extremely nice redesigns.


But when those Cockrum costumes came out, they were really unlike anything else on the market that came before...they definitely looked futuristic at the time.

And then he went over to Marvel and really went crazy with creating some freaky costumes and characters...and that's when the X-Men surpassed the Legion on the comics radar.


But it's kind of ironic that the freakyness of the Bronze Age, the look I should say, began in a Superboy title edited by Murray Boltinoff of all people....from all accounts I have read he was the oldest of the old school editors.


I suppose I should mention Kim Metzger in this as well...I still love his Saturn Girl Pink Bikini. It fit in well with those Cockrum redesigns.

[ May 22, 2008, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
Hmm...maybe we should get the guy who redesigned the costumes for the TV show...he did a pretty good job of creating some new ones.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Maybe we should just do a fandom contest - didn't they implement some of the fans designs in the sooner 70s?

(no, I DON'T have a design for Phantom Girl ready )
 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
I'm not to crazy about Gary Frank's costumes either.

Dave Cockrum was in a league of his own at creating costume's.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Going back to that continuity means sacrificing a lot of the characterizations that we've gained since. I mean just look what's been done with Lyle and Trips, for example, since Zero Hour! Pre-Crisis Legion? Lyle's dead and Trips is the retired (and less interesting, IMO)Duo Damsel. These characters have been absolute revelations since Zero Hour--are we ready to put them back in the box?

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Exactly. Here's the problem: the best versions of each character aren't all from the same universe. Not that I want to see an amalgamated Legion - that won't satisfy anyone. But in most comic series, concepts get refined and revised over time. And the early versions aren't always the best.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Going back to that continuity means sacrificing a lot of the characterizations that we've gained since. I mean just look what's been done with Lyle and Trips, for example, since Zero Hour! Pre-Crisis Legion? Lyle's dead and Trips is the retired (and less interesting, IMO)Duo Damsel. These characters have been absolute revelations since Zero Hour--are we ready to put them back in the box?

---

Exactly. Here's the problem: the best versions of each character aren't all from the same universe. Not that I want to see an amalgamated Legion - that won't satisfy anyone. But in most comic series, concepts get refined and revised over time. And the early versions aren't always the best.

---

And just for a little anecdotal evidence of what we could lose if we go back to pre-Crisis Legion more or less exactly as it existed at the time, I'll refer to the surprising Final Three of Future's Legion of Three Worlds Survivor game:

3rd Place: XS

2nd Place: Gates

1st Place: Postboot/Zero Hour Invisible Kid

This was a very popular thread, heavily participated in by Legion Worlders and encompassed all Legionnaires from all three major "worlds", including each version of the same character as separate vote-getters. And our finalists were all from the Zero Hour reboot Legion. And, of those, that version of Lyle was most popular.

Well, we'd theoretically lose him forever if the LS version becomes the definitive one and follows the pre-Crisis timeline. Obviously, this is because Lyle is dead in that timeline. One of the benefits of the reboot undeniably was getting him back and getting a version of the character fans could embrace, as his win in the contest helps illustrate.

Could XS and Gates be incorporated as later additions to the pre-Crisis Legion. Perhaps. But it would sure give that 'amalgam' vibe to it that we seem to disapprove of, as would "un-killing" Lyle or having that Triad persona grafted on to Duo Damsel.

That's part of what I meant about not being able to go back home and what could hurt as much or more as heal about such a solution.

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Originally posted by Glen Cadigan:


Regarding the whole Superboy and the Legion debate, it was the mentality of DC in the 60s and 70s that people were really buying the Legion to read about Superboy, and that the Legion were mostly tag-ons. Obviously, if you're a fan of the Legion, you reject that theory, but it isn't all hogwash. Superboy is a draw for some people, and if including Superman in a potential deboot makes it more appealing to today's readers, then I'm all for it. I think the original Legion has been away long enough now that, for some people, it's the same as a new property, and if Superman is the hook that gets them to pick such a title up, then great.

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Regarding Superboy as a sales force, it should also be pointed out that the Legion kicked him out of his own book twice, so if he was such a hot seller on his own, that wouldn't have happened.

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In 1980, when Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes was divided into two titles (remember The New Adventures of Superboy title? The one with Kurt Schaffenberger art?), Superboy's solo book was cancelled in 1984 due to poor sales, and that requires a bit of an explanation of its own. Here goes...

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Back in those days, DC would keep certain titles around at a loss if they felt that a certain character needed to maintain a presence for licensing purposes (Wonder Woman is the best example of this), and I think Superboy fell into that category. The great fact about that era is that Marvel would cancel any title that sold less than 100,000 copies, and DC only had three that sold above it: Titans, Legion, and Batman and the Outsiders. By all accounts, DC was heavily subsidized by Warners back then, a company which acknowledged DC's existence like you'd recognize a pair of old socks in your drawer - you know you have them, you just don't think about them until you stumble over them.

The reason for Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985 was that DC, as a comic book publisher, was soundly getting its ass kicked by Marvel. The hope with Crisis was that, coming out of it, Marvel fans would cross the floor to DC because DC just wasn't cutting it with DC fans alone. Marv Wolfman's original idea was that every DC title would start over with # 1, as if DC was an entirely new company, and let's face it: back then, DC had nowhere to go but up.

So what does all of this have to do with Superboy? Well, Crisis was planned in 1984 for release in 1985, and '84 was when Superboy was cancelled. The original plan was to relaunch both Superboy and Supergirl (another sales dog) as DC Double Comics, and work was even begun on it, but when the Supergirl movie bombed, that was the last nail in the coffin of that character. DC Double Comics was cancelled before it was published, and we all know what happened to Supergirl.

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quote:

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So what's my point? This: Superboy, as a solo character, was not necessarily successful.

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It's not like putting Wolverine in the Avengers. That being said, having him (or Superman) in the Legion certainly doesn't take sales away from the book, and it can only add them. There's a reason why Batman and the Outsiders sold better than Batman back in the day: you get two groups of fans buying the book instead of just one. Superboy without the Legion didn't do as well as with, and vice versa. So if you put 'em together, you hedge your bets. At this point, anything that holds the line on sales is considered a step forward since sales are slipping every month, and if sales then go up, now that's considered progress. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Glen Cadigan:
Paul Levitz hates that story, and refers to it as a mistake. And he wrote it!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
So is bringing back a 20 year-old version (albeit a popular one) really the answer? Why did DC not try to just connect with this latest version, which they said was the DC's 'official' future anyway, to Superman and help revitalize the property in that manner?

If they had done that, I believe the potential was there to satisfy more fans and build the property for the future, potentially incorporating what was best about all versions in the process. I don't think going twenty years in the past is really the answer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #235 was published in 1978. It featured a story by Levitz and Grell that addressed the aging of the Legion. It explained that youth treatments in the 30th century resulted in people living to be over a hundred years old. This explained why the Legionnaries who were in their twenties were still referred to as "lad", "boy" and "lass". This is is the first time their aging was adressed that specifically. The story featured Superboy. Now, Superboy would still have had to be a teenager if he was referred to Superboy. By the time he was in his twenties he had left Smallville and taken on the name Superman. The passage of time was starting to deal a blow to the original concept of the Legion. Was this a pivotal point in the the Legion outgrowing Superboy, and leading it to becoming a whole new concept? Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

I personally liked the story, and the explanation carried a lot of weight with me. It was much easier for me to swallow than the idea that the team had been around since 1959, had so many adventures, but were still teenagers. What do you guys think?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Glen Cadigan:
All the arguments regarding losing Lyle Norg or somebody else in a deboot may be countered with regaining Jacques Foccart, Tellus, Quislet, etc.. Everybody's got favorite characters, and keeping a comic around for one (or more) of them isn't a particularly compelling argument...

People can't put all of their hopes (or even some of them) on specific characters within a team title. It doesn't make any sense.

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Originally posted by Glen Cadigan:
[QB] It outsold the Fantastic Four, Justice League, and every single comic that Marvel made until 1969, when Spider-Man passed it (although the Legion switched to Action that year, and Action outsold Spidey, so those numbers are a little bit jumbled).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #235 was published in 1978. It featured a story by Levitz and Grell that addressed the aging of the Legion. It explained that youth treatments in the 30th century resulted in people living to be over a hundred years old. This explained why the Legionnaries who were in their twenties were still referred to as "lad", "boy" and "lass". This is is the first time their aging was adressed that specifically. The story featured Superboy. Now, Superboy would still have had to be a teenager if he was referred to Superboy. By the time he was in his twenties he had left Smallville and taken on the name Superman. The passage of time was starting to deal a blow to the original concept of the Legion. Was this a pivotal point in the the Legion outgrowing Superboy, and leading it to becoming a whole new concept? Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

I personally liked the story, and the explanation carried a lot of weight with me. It was much easier for me to swallow than the idea that the team had been around since 1959, had so many adventures, but were still teenagers. What do you guys think?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #235 was published in 1978. It featured a story by Levitz and Grell that addressed the aging of the Legion. It explained that youth treatments in the 30th century resulted in people living to be over a hundred years old. This explained why the Legionnaries who were in their twenties were still referred to as "lad", "boy" and "lass". This is is the first time their aging was adressed that specifically. The story featured Superboy. Now, Superboy would still have had to be a teenager if he was referred to Superboy. By the time he was in his twenties he had left Smallville and taken on the name Superman. The passage of time was starting to deal a blow to the original concept of the Legion. Was this a pivotal point in the the Legion outgrowing Superboy, and leading it to becoming a whole new concept? Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

I personally liked the story, and the explanation carried a lot of weight with me. It was much easier for me to swallow than the idea that the team had been around since 1959, had so many adventures, but were still teenagers. What do you guys think?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
On the aging thing, it is my belief that had Weisinger stayed on the book a few more years, he would have aged the Legionnaires into the Adult Legion. . . I think the introdution of Chemical King with his adult-sounding name is one indication of this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Come to think of it...I think [Paul Levitz]'s the first creator that really made the aging thing an issue and I think he did it beginning with that story. I can't recall aging ever being mentioned outside of an Adult Legion story prior to that story.

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Around the time that Levitz was writing the Legion for the first time, he was also writing ALL-STAR COMICS, in which he approached aging from a different perspective: by showing the Justice Society to be middle-aged.

Of course, the JSA had been aging since they were revived in the early '60s. Jay Garrick was shown to have grey hair at the temples. The Golden Age Robin was introduced as an adult around 1970.

But in the late 1970s, Levitz wrote an article for Amazing World of DC Comics, in which he postulated the JSAers to be in their late 50s. That was a conservative estimate--members such as Dr. Mid-Nite and Johnny Thunder would certainly have been past 60 (Mid-Nite was a physician in 1940, and Thunder's birth year was established to be 1917)--but the JSA had been aging before the Legion.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
Speaking of Superboy...



http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/superboy.htm

Oh oh..found this just now..

Rein of the Superboy



[ May 26, 2008, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Yellow Kid ]
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
Speaking of Superboy...



http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/superboy.htm

Oh oh..found this just now..

Rein of the Superboy

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardo:
[qb] Superboy

Even though I grant you some of your arguments (the importance of Superboy to the foundation of LSH, most of all), you seem to be over-valuating some points for the sake of placing Superboy as the main LSH character (which he is not).

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Various comments here show that reasons unrelated to the presence of Superboy/Superman hurt Legion sales. Or the other way round.

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You can't even begin to compare DC's situation today with the 60s.

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It's not a LSH thing: it is a company thing (DC has just one title around the top 10 - and that was due to its writer, not its title -

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and this is a trend that is evolving since the 80s: the author's comic book).

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I think it is a bit pretentious to say that in one hand you had Byrne machiavelling against a powerless and power-hungry Levitz.

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DC decided to give Byrne full reign over Superman and it was very, very successful.

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Deal with it.

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It hurt LSH? In a sense, but not at all more than Legion on The Run. Legion was a strong seller for a decade after moving to Baxter format.

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It was the leading Baxter/Deluxe Format title for a long time.

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I can't even begin to discuss the comparison between Wolverine and Superboy in their own teams.

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Superboy was an inspiration to LSH and his presence was always seen as an special event.

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Wolverine was X-Men's main character, present in every single X-team for 40 years.

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I'd say Brainiac is the Wolverine of LSH in that sense. Hell, Jonn Jonzz is the Wolverine of JLA and nobody is giving much of a tear for his obvious absence in Justice League.

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LSH is not a Superman title, in my opinion, and it shouldn't be. It's not even a Superman and the Outsiders-type of book. It's a team INSPIRED by Superman legacy.

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But it lives on its own time, chronology, mythos and characters. As about ten years of SOLID storytelling after the retcon proved.

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Like I say Ricardo...I want you to show me an era of the Legion where Superboy was a part of it that proves your point that concept lost it's appeal and it's time passed and that the market rejected it.

That's simply not true, there is not a shred of credible evidence to verify that point...you will not find that era, for it does not exist, but you can find plenty of eras of the Legion losing relevance, commercially and critically when forced to fend for itself.

You want the Legion to be just another team book? Only one with no tethers to anyone or anything else? You better get Alan Moore to write it...

And since he's a Superman fan(Silver Age Superman Fan at that) he probably wouldn't think it's a good idea either.

Just like Waid.
Just like Giffen.
And the Bierbaums.
And Levitz.
And Geoff Johns...

And even John Byrne, the guy who did it in the first place.

And this becomes a problem for all of us because DC keeps rebooting the @#$#$@ book.

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Originally posted by Ricardo:
I won't show you what other people has shown here...

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Could you link me to where they show it?

Is it that graph by Michael Grabois?

If you notice his latest version of that graph is drastically different than the one you have been posting...due to the fact that he can't get accurate numbers for the first 10 years of the direct market Legion...

Here's what I believe to be the most recent one:





I have the luxury of going by memory, for they published the sales rankings in Amazing Heroes and CBG back then.


The Pre Crisis Baxter Legion was DC's second best selling direct market title behind the Titans(ahead of Infinity Inc., the Omega Men and Vigilante) and it sold 80-90k copies monthly. By the end of the Crisis it was selling 60k....even as Frank Miller and Alan Moore were making comics legitimate foundations for college courses, and the hot topic for literary intellectuals to be discussing...

The Legion was arguably the most adult oriented team book of that time...yet it did not reap the benefits of that audience expansion...that adult audience expansion. It sales dropped...coinciding exactly with the Byrne retcon.

quote:

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I don't even think I am that good in proving so. If DC knew, they would add Superman to all their books, or maybe Superboy. It would add 30k to their readership, at least. Why don't they do that?

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It is a simplistic way to prove my point, but I never doubted that Superman would drive sales to LSH. This was not the main point. The main point is that LSH can sell well (under DC's circumstances) without Superman. Better with? Probably, but then again, JLI would sell better with Superman but it went fine otherwise.

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quote:

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Batman would also add sales to LSH? What about a LSH featuring mostly versions of actual DCU heroes, kinda like a Titans of the Future?

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Sorry, this is not how it should be handled. LSH is a fine book that, well written, can go well without Superman.

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It wasn't just another team book, for reasons I've also mentioned (adult, not chronologically restrained, long history baggage, sci-fi). The presence of Superman DOESN'T change that necessarily, but would not make it different from any other book (Superman is the leader of the JLA anyway).

And, again, in my opinion, the reboots are caused for destroying ALL LSH concepts, not for Superboy's being retconned.

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LSH doesn't grow, characters are flat-out boring, the Lad concept should be gone by now (hey, they were adults!)... [/QB]

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All that is silly...Superboy was a time traveller...he could interact with them at any age, ditto they him.

Superman could team up with the youngest version of the Legion...

The 5YG age Legion could have gone back in time to interact with Superboy...

Time travel...the age at which they intersect is not a barrier.

[ May 27, 2008, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
It's funny reading the exchanges between Superboy and Ricardo (seems this thread and the Shooter thread have morphed into The Great Superboy/Ricardo Debates ), absorbing the arguments and counterarguments and seeing how the crux of the argument plays out:

Superboy equates stronger sales (in the form of Superboy's presence) with quality and longterm viability. Reattach Legion to the Superman mythos, where he says its always belonged, and it will again be a top seller like it hasn't been in about a quarter century.

Ricardo sees Superboy as a crutch and would like to see the Legion progress to its full potential, complete with aging and more mature storylines. I believe Ricardo thinks that committing to a more mature and innovative approach will eventually bring the sales with it.

It's not hard to figure out which eras of the Legion that each poster is a fan of. And both arguments are sound.

From a more neutral perspective, I'd have to say that both posters are absolutely right. However...both posters are wrong at the same time.

How is Superboy right? Well, it's hard to argue that tying the Legion back into the Superman legacy would be a smart business move for DC regarding the Legion property. I mean, look at how they decided to tie him into the recent cartoon--ultimately it only lasted a couple of seasons, but would it have ever even gotten the greenlight without including Superman? And the sales data is very persuasive, not only the sales trends over the Legion 50 years but the sales of the Action Comics arc. The Legion would almost certainly be a sales success for possibly quite some time given that data.

Why is Ricardo also right? Well, certainly good, innovative writing with dramatic changes in direction on characters who've been around a while has proven successful in recent years. I mean, just look at Captain America, for one. Cap had really struggled to carry his own book for any length of time over the last couple of decades. Now, the book has a top-caliber writer with a really mature look and feel and a longterm storyline including really dramatic twists--and its a big, big seller and earning awards up the wazzoo. It's not a stretch to see that happening with the Legion, really. They've had staying power and have attracted huge fanbases at times.

Now, how could Superboy be wrong? Well, part of what's wrong is that DC can't call young Superman Superboy for the foreseeable future. Hell, there's even the possibility they could eventually lose Superman altogether! What would THAT do to the Legion? Even if that happens, would "Superman and the Legion" or "Young Superman..." or "Clark Kent..." really connect in the way "Superboy..." did or would with the nostalgic fans that Superboy cites continually? And also how well have ancillary Superman titles done in recent years? Remember when we had four ongoings and a fifth week quarterly? The Kon-El Superboy title? The Linda Danvers/Matrix Supergirl title? Steel? Is the Kara Zor-El title going strong? (not sure exactly, though I've heard the title is a real stinker of a read) Superman/Batman and JLA are pretty strong because of his direct involvement, and that would imply Kal would need to remain directly and continuously involved with LSH to sustain it. Who's to say that will even work again?

{b]How is Ricardo wrong?[/b] Well great, award-winning writing and a daring, innovative direction are far from a guarantee of success. I mean, how many critically-lauded runs on comics have been cancelled? Basically, the only mainstream superhero comics that are healthy in sales longterm, as Superboy says, have their roots in the Silver and Bronze Ages. Anything else that is "new", like Runaways or the current Manhunter, have to fight tooth and nail to survive and still may not be around next year for all that. Legion qualifies as having been around both eras, but it's certainly been on the fringe for a long time. Maybe it can be reborn like Iron Fist has recently in this manner, but will it, as Iron Fist probably won't, survive a creative change when that initial infusion decides to call it quits? Creative team are pretty mercurial these days, so don't look for someone to commit for more than a couple of years, if even that.

So my point is that neither of these approaches come with any guarantees, gentlemen. It seems like the Legion has been on the verge of being cancelled altogether for twenty years. And yet somehow, it's survived, if not exactly thrived. In any case the decision is pretty much certainly out of our hands.

Yes, I'd put money down that the rumors are true, and we'll soon see a relaunch after L3W which will be something pretty close to what we saw in that Action Comics arc, probably with heavy involvement from Superman. And, as usual, I don't expect that relaunch to satisfy all or even most of the fans. Is it the right thing to do? Only time will tell. I just hope in another few years, DC won't change their minds again, or worse, we won't have any Legion to enjoy at all, other than our back issues, trades and Archives.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 
And one other thing...Superman adds to the Sci-Fi potential...not limits.

#1. He is time traveling. A cornerstone of Sci-Fi.

#2. Superman is the greatest Science Fiction character ever created and his mythose were constructed entitely by Science Fiction writers...hardcore Sci-Fi fans.

Even when Mort was ripping them off...he was ripping off the best.


And as for the Levitz Legion which is constantly referenced as a period of success for the Superman Free Legion...


Superboy was back in the book as a full member when he began his second run.

Levitz had Superboy appear in 7 of his first 10 Legion stories...

And the he constructed what is arguably the Legion's greatest story...the GDS.

The GDS is built around a Superman Villian(Darkseid) who first appeared in Jimmy Olsen no less. Not only is Superboy in it...but Supergirl is in it as well...not to mention the Superman clone...and an entire planet of Superman based characters and Superman powered villian...

That's not distancing itself from the Superman mythos...that's a taking a head first plunge into them.

And then what did Levitz do? He used Supergirl more than any other writer in Legion history.


And he had plans for a big arc featuing Superboy and Supergirl(per the lettercol of TLOSH #318) that he never got to use due to the COIE.


Paul Levitz used the Superman family...he had just been edting the Superboy strip in Adventure before he came back to the Legion...he was the VP of circulation...if anyone knew the impact, it was he. And he said so in those lettercols.


Did Levitz use them in every story? No...but he also let it be known that they might appear at any point, just like any other Legionaires...and he never removed Superboy as an active member until 1985, when I assume DC dictated that he do so.

See IMO, Levitz found the perfect balance...you don't use him every story, but you also don't eliminate the chance of him appearing...that balance was destroyed at the time of the Crisi, not by Levitz either.
 

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Posted by Superboy on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
It's funny reading the exchanges between Superboy and Ricardo (seems this thread and the Shooter thread have morphed into The Great Superboy/Ricardo Debates ), absorbing the arguments and counterarguments and seeing how the crux of the argument plays out:

Superboy equates stronger sales (in the form of Superboy's presence) with quality and longterm viability. Reattach Legion to the Superman mythos, where he says its always belonged, and it will again be a top seller like it hasn't been in about a quarter century.

Ricardo sees Superboy as a crutch and would like to see the Legion progress to its full potential, complete with aging and more mature storylines. I believe Ricardo thinks that committing to a more mature and innovative approach will eventually bring the sales with it.

It's not hard to figure out which eras of the Legion that each poster is a fan of. And both arguments are sound.

From a more neutral perspective, I'd have to say that both posters are absolutely right. However...both posters are wrong at the same time.

How is Superboy right? Well, it's hard to argue that tying the Legion back into the Superman legacy would be a smart business move for DC regarding the Legion property. I mean, look at how they decided to tie him into the recent cartoon--ultimately it only lasted a couple of seasons, but would it have ever even gotten the greenlight without including Superman? And the sales data is very persuasive, not only the sales trends over the Legion 50 years but the sales of the Action Comics arc. The Legion would almost certainly be a sales success for possibly quite some time given that data.

Why is Ricardo also right? Well, certainly good, innovative writing with dramatic changes in direction on characters who've been around a while has proven successful in recent years. I mean, just look at Captain America, for one. Cap had really struggled to carry his own book for any length of time over the last couple of decades. Now, the book has a top-caliber writer with a really mature look and feel and a longterm storyline including really dramatic twists--and its a big, big seller and earning awards up the wazzoo. It's not a stretch to see that happening with the Legion, really. They've had staying power and have attracted huge fanbases at times.

Now, how could Superboy be wrong? Well, part of what's wrong is that DC can't call young Superman Superboy for the foreseeable future. Hell, there's even the possibility they could eventually lose Superman altogether! What would THAT do to the Legion? Even if that happens, would "Superman and the Legion" or "Young Superman..." or "Clark Kent..." really connect in the way "Superboy..." did or would with the nostalgic fans that Superboy cites continually? And also how well have ancillary Superman titles done in recent years? Remember when we had four ongoings and a fifth week quarterly? The Kon-El Superboy title? The Linda Danvers/Matrix Supergirl title? Steel? Is the Kara Zor-El title going strong? (not sure exactly, though I've heard the title is a real stinker of a read) Superman/Batman and JLA are pretty strong because of his direct involvement, and that would imply Kal would need to remain directly and continuously involved with LSH to sustain it. Who's to say that will even work again?

{b]How is Ricardo wrong?[/b] Well great, award-winning writing and a daring, innovative direction are far from a guarantee of success. I mean, how many critically-lauded runs on comics have been cancelled? Basically, the only mainstream superhero comics that are healthy in sales longterm, as Superboy says, have their roots in the Silver and Bronze Ages. Anything else that is "new", like Runaways or the current Manhunter, have to fight tooth and nail to survive and still may not be around next year for all that. Legion qualifies as having been around both eras, but it's certainly been on the fringe for a long time. Maybe it can be reborn like Iron Fist has recently in this manner, but will it, as Iron Fist probably won't, survive a creative change when that initial infusion decides to call it quits? Creative team are pretty mercurial these days, so don't look for someone to commit for more than a couple of years, if even that.

So my point is that neither of these approaches come with any guarantees, gentlemen. It seems like the Legion has been on the verge of being cancelled altogether for twenty years. And yet somehow, it's survived, if not exactly thrived. In any case the decision is pretty much certainly out of our hands.

Yes, I'd put money down that the rumors are true, and we'll soon see a relaunch after L3W which will be something pretty close to what we saw in that Action Comics arc, probably with heavy involvement from Superman. And, as usual, I don't expect that relaunch to satisfy all or even most of the fans. Is it the right thing to do? Only time will tell. I just hope in another few years, DC won't change their minds again, or worse, we won't have any Legion to enjoy at all, other than our back issues, trades and Archives.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardo:

And despite Shooter being a great draw to the title now, he is hardly a writer, these days, who would be attracting any one but us.

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quote:

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Hell, not even the return of Levitz or Giffen would, in my opinion.

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quote:

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Give LSH to Grant Morrison or Matt Fraction and THEN we would see what would happen. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Lardy...I'll give you your thread back...Ricardo and I just going at each other saying the same things over and over again probably isn't particularly entertaining to anyone other than us.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
Lardy...I'll give you your thread back...Ricardo and I just going at each other saying the same things over and over again probably isn't particularly entertaining to anyone other than us.
[/qb]

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Actually, I don't want either of you to think I was running you out. I've actually enjoyed the debate. But it does seem to be going in circles a little, especially as others putting their two cents in has decreased. One thing I tried to do with that post was push things into a new direction, not necessarily end the debate.

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LoL well I was enjoying arguing about it with Ricardo...they should start a sub forum for he and I to argue in

quote:

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What I see are two guys who show a great love of the Legion and are passionate about what they think it will take to "save" the Legion. What I pointed out in the last post is, in a way, there probably is no perfect answer. If we find a way to increase the sales, their are still going to be many, many fans who are going to be disappointed in it or dissatisfied.

I love the Legion and, like Superboy, would probably continue to buy whatever version DC puts out. Like him, I'd probably also prefer to see two books, with Shooter continuing to write the version he's doing. But the signs suggest otherwise.

I think whatever DC does, it would do my heart good if they'd at least throw out all the constant rebooting, retconning and all around effing with the Legion they've done since Superboy was first retconned out. If I could read a version and know it's gonna be the same version five, ten, whatever years from now, I'd be satisfied...even if it doesn't top all other Legion stories ever written.

I thank both of you for your insights and points of view into what is going to be another era of uncertainty for the Legion. [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
LoL well I was enjoying arguing about it with Ricardo...they should start a sub forum for he and I to argue in

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Scott, Gary--you guys listening? I'd read it!

quote:

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I agree, no more reboots...I'm completely sick of them. And they also need to stop teasing of returns to the original and then not delivering...it's just salt in the wounds and keeps Legion fandom from moving on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:
[QB]Unfortunately Shooter isn't much of a draw...that's the problem. But he did provide a nice bump when he took over the book...everytime something is done with this book it gets a bump, that tells me the interest there...but DC hasn't put it all together yet.

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quote:

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Did you ever read any of Shooter's Valiant stuff? It was extremely complex...particularly Unity. Some consider the crowning achievement of 90's comics creatively.

When listenting to you and Chemical King talk about the kinds of stories you like...I keep thinking you guys would have liked the Valiant stuff under Shooter.


In terms of the mechanics of writing, particuarly sci-fi IMO Shooter is on the short list of the greatest minds ever to work in comics.

His dialogue will always be fairly cheesy though. I think it's intentional.

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quote:

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Common ground...sign me up for a Morrison Legion...although looking at the success he had with AS Superman which is basically a modern interpretation of the Silver Age Superman...I'm not so sure it would bear much resemblance to a straight Sci-Fi title.

Alas for all of us...Grant has said that after Final Crisis he's not going to be doing anything but writing Batman for a while.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Am I crazy or didn't Valiant get it's own companywide reboot at some point, like somewhere near the end of its run, in hopes of enticing new readers with new number ones? Right or wrong?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Superboy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardo:

And despite Shooter being a great draw to the title now, he is hardly a writer, these days, who would be attracting any one but us.

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Unfortunately Shooter isn't much of a draw...that's the problem. But he did provide a nice bump when he took over the book...everytime something is done with this book it gets a bump, that tells me the interest there...but DC hasn't put it all together yet.

quote:

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Hell, not even the return of Levitz or Giffen would, in my opinion.

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Did you ever read any of Shooter's Valiant stuff? It was extremely complex...particularly Unity. Some consider the crowning achievement of 90's comics creatively.

When listenting to you and Chemical King talk about the kinds of stories you like...I keep thinking you guys would have liked the Valiant stuff under Shooter.

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It's funny that you mentioned it, but I never actually had a look at Valiant until I got on this board

The talk about Shooters big time there made me curious and I just recently started hunting down Valiant stuff on German ebay. Got the Harbinger HC (and the rest of the series as a whole package for 22 Euros) and currently try top track down all that Unity stuff.

But I have to say that the Harbinger HC did not convince me on the same level than 5YL. It is certainly good, but the first seven issues are missing the "big picture" somehow...

As for you and Ricardo debating, keep it on, I love it (though I hardly have the time to actually READ it all )...

As for Giffen: Just got his Aquaman Mini from 1989... not all that bad...
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
As for an excellent essay about the rise and fall of Valiant comics...

... read this: http://www.sequart.com/columns/index.php?col=13&column=835

It will immeadiately bring you up to date with what happened back then even if you have never heard a single bit about the Valiant universe. very entertaining, by the way...
 

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Posted by Triplicate Kid on :