quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: CK, I loved "Babylon 5," too (even the fifth season!), but one difference between it and other ongoing arcs is that "B5" was written, JMS always claimed, as a TV novel. That is, he had a beginning, middle, and end in mind from the very start.
snipsnipsnip...
For other TV or comic book series to do what "B5" did would require them to truly have a plan that might end the series and the marketable familiarity of the characters for good.
Not necessarily. In Germany, there's a SciFi series called "Perry Rhodan" which is running in one continuity since 1963 - one issue (pulp novel format) each week. Currently, they reached #2450 (!!!). Of course, there were good times and bad times, but essentially, the story always continued though writers died and were born.
In its glory years, the series told a major storyline which took about seven years from beginning to the end, which was about 350 single novels. The story was planned years in advance, and lots of early hints were given which only made sense years later. Of course, there were - just like in Babylon 5 much later - many single issues which had nothing to do with the big picture but were just simply SciFi stories.
So it needs the manpower, a lot of planning and a lot of patience, but it can work in an ongoing series. You just have to be ready to actually develop your characters - they can't stay 17 forever, that's for sure...
But we had this discussion - SciFi versus Superheroes, aging versus "jolly teenagers forever", so I won't go there.
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: For other TV or comic book series to do what "B5" did would require them to truly have a plan that might end the series and the marketable familiarity of the characters for good. But since most series operate under the mentality of "milk 'em for all they're worth," they keep going until they simply run out of steam.
Arguably, the two most critically successful runs in the recent years for DC didn't follow these rules: Sandman and Starman. And I would say TMK had this in mind too.
For once, our opinions seem to differ: Though I am a big fan of the Sandman, I never got into Starman. Got the first TPB way back when it came out, it did not impress me...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
CK, it sounds like the creators of "Perry Rhodan" had a plan stuck to it, regardless of how long it took.
The length of time it takes to tell a story doesn't really matter. What matters (to me) is, does the writer have an ending in mind and is he or she following a road map or "just making it up as he or she goes along"? Stronger stories rely on such a roadmap while allowing for flexibility.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I agree. There is no ideal length for a comic book story. Epic multiple issue stories can be fun. Ongoing serials can be great too, if they move and wrap things up as they go along. The Walking Dead is probably the best current example of that approach working well. Short stories can be effective. I probably wouldn't be the Legion fan that I am without the short easy to understand stories of Cary Bates.
It feels like there is a lack of diversity in storytelling approaches right now. Stories feel like they are more designed for the trade market than the monthly market. Then it gets even more frustrating when the trades are broken up into installments. You can drop $20 for a trade and only get a third of the story. Oops, still two more to buy. You don't mind dropping sixty bucks for complete story do you, fan boy?
Waid's pacing didn't work for me. There didn't seem to be a resolution to anything, and when there was it was anticlimactic. Bedard was an improvement and Shooter still feels like he is going somewhere. For the Legion, I would be most satisfied with a writer who really made an effort to tie up some loose ends. Perhaps it is just the nature of the series, but as a legion fan I feel like I've been left hanging on a number of different fronts for decades.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I just read the 1.000 Years TP today and it is incredible to compare how much story was crammed into Levitz stories and how thin they were in Legion #0 (one of the most despicable stories ever, even though Waid does a decent job on dialogue) and especially on The Legion #3. That story is a big nothing, full of nice splash pages but very low on substance. It's almost shocking when compared to Bedtime Story (with some of the best art Stuart Immonen ever did, clearly paying tribute to various LSH artists on the way).
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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Or, rather, the sensation of Spring/Summer 2008 (since franchised out to Gym'll's!) which was a revolving & evolving topic that sizzled for 68 pages over a five-month span is attempting a comeback at a very crucial moment in Legion history!
You see, as EDE's "The Legion in the '00s" points out, you can make the argument that the '00s were the low point in terms of comparative decades' effect on the franchise. Let's face it: we'll have been without a continuing lead feature for the Legion for the longest period of time since they were a lowly backup feature in Action Comics between successful runs in Adventure and Superboy. Worse, we haven't had a successful run, critically and financially, arguably since the DnA heyday. Heck, depending on what standards you use, it could've been much longer ago than that!
Even worse, the Legion has been damaged so much in the last two decades by continuity "fixes" and reboots, one has to wonder whether a true revival is even POSSIBLE at this point!
Enter Paul Levitz, one of the very most legendary creators in all of Legion history. In early 2010 it will be up to Paul to raise the Legion up from the ashes.
My question to you, as a starting point, is this: What does Paul have to do in his upcoming run to give the Legion a shot at being truly successful again? Please note, I'm not asking you what would satisfy just YOU here--that's been covered elsewhere. I'm asking what he has to do to make it viable again, so that it has a chance to see another decade and stay healthy and well above the cancellation line. Obviously, really good stories would be a start, but let's dig deeper here and try to figure something out!
Any takers?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
No doubt he's asking himself that very same question.
Based on what many people have written across various message boards and internet reviews, he should deliver some told in one (or two) issue stories. Some longer term plot simmering below. No big galactic threats. Some new villains. Find the lost Legionnaires (which I expect is on the agenda).
I don't know if it's possible, but it might help a lot of us if he could provide some definitive back story - what is the transition between the old Legion and this one, what didn't happen, when did Yera join, etc. I like text pages for this sort of thing, since a lot gets told in a little space, but these details could be worked into an on-going story as well.
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: No doubt he's asking himself that very same question.
Based on what many people have written across various message boards and internet reviews, he should deliver some told in one (or two) issue stories. Some longer term plot simmering below. No big galactic threats. Some new villains. Find the lost Legionnaires (which I expect is on the agenda).
I don't know if it's possible, but it might help a lot of us if he could provide some definitive back story - what is the transition between the old Legion and this one, what didn't happen, when did Yera join, etc. I like text pages for this sort of thing, since a lot gets told in a little space, but these details could be worked into an on-going story as well.
I agree that I want to see most of what you've described here but does the average comic buyer?
What Levitz needs is good story-telling. Good plots and sub-plots and good, consistent characterisation. If he achieves that then the comic world MAY notice, if he doesn't then it will be down to the Legion faithfull to support the book or it goes under.
The guy probably needs a personal make-over to gain street cred in today's market as well.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Getting a top notch artist,who can meet deadlines and is passionate about the Legion,would go a long way in helping the title sell,that and covers by Alex Ross.
Some of Levitz strong points were good story-telling. Good plots and sub-plots and good, consistent characterisation.
What might hurt him in todays Comics,is his dialogue?
And creating New Villians for the Legion to face or tweaking Old Villians,like Johns did with Absorbancy Boy/Earth Man and the rest of the characters from Justice League Earth.
[ October 26, 2009, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Some things he could do that I'd hope would help the Legion be more successful, though none by themselves would do it:
- more science-fiction comic than superhero comic
- continued interaction with the Superman mythos, possibly the Flash mythos but then cut it off there.
- Balance between shorter 1-issue stories and 2-issue stories, with the longer 3, 4 and 5 issue stories. Obviously, do them in an order where you can bundle them together 6-7 issues at a time for a trade.
- Don't bog the series down in continuity without making it feel like its 'new and developing'. In other words, any reader coming on feels like they're watching continuity develop before their eyes. In the meantime, give the old readers something to bite themselves--I suggest devoting an annual or secret files to it, make the price something outrageous like $6.99 and be done with it. I think from now DC and Marvel should always do this and make readers have to pay for continuity. Its all going to be spoiled online anyway within minutes so I suspect half the readership doesn't even buy stories like that anymore and just wants to 'know the continuity' rather than read a good story.
- new "stuff": villains, situations, alien worlds, supporting characters, love intersts, romantic relationships, odd relationships including platonic ones, weird facets about people or places, etc.
- Encyclopedia Galactica tidbits to return the Legion to having a certain voice it once had.
- Use the Legion's vast membership to his advantage to showcase a large team. Obviously this is something he knows how to do. But also, there will need to be some Legionnaires that stand out as having more screen time than the rest, to become more popular to help propel the popularity of the book. This is a tried and true team book method (see: Wolverine, Cable, Robin, etc.). Give those latter Legionnaires specific ongoing subplots and stories; likely they could be Ultra Boy, Saturn Girl, Wildfire, etc. Note that many fans will complain about this. If it helps sales, and even causes people to take notice, this is a type of complaint DC can live with. (Far better to have people say "Ultra Boy again?" than "I can't understand the freaking Legion anymore").
Some thoughts.
Obviously the art. Good covers. Sex appeal but don't make it gratuitous. Quirky background aliens.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think Legion should aim for more adult market, rather than trying to be the new X-Men or Teen Titans. It should cater to a more off-beat pattern, catching the Ex-Machina/Starman/Warren Ellis sci-fi/fantasy reader and MUCH less to DCU. I am not here saying it should be as bold as it was during TMK (I'd love to, but I am a loner here), but it sounds even more ludicrous to try doing what they've tried for the last 10 years without a bit of success. Special issues with top-artists using "out of continuity" tales (in that James Robinson "tales of days past" way) should be embraced. And last but not least, give the writer FREEDOM to tell his tale. Not doing what DC did to Shooter. Or Waid. You see, Johns wasn't really interested in the Legion - and L3W was proof enough of how Legion was merely a background for GL, Flash, S-Prime... That's it. Thank you all for reading.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Between the terrible economy and the backwards approach to marketing/pricing that both of the Big Two seem hung up on, I don't know whether this relaunch will succeed or fail. I also don't know how much of its success or failure would have to do with the actual story contents, truthfully.
But I wish the new team luck/success, anyway. With the caveat that this stuff in general is priced way the hell out of my reach these days. If I can't read it, I hope they don't take it personally.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
$0.99 first issue of Levitz's run would be pretty groovy too!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Paul is also going to be writing an Adventure Comics Annual which will be setting up much of his storyline in Adventure Comics. So really, his run kicks off with the Adventure Comics Annual first, then it goes into Adventure Comics itself. And as we realized by chatting, I believe this is the first Adventure Comics Annual ever, which I believe is also very exciting that Paul gets to do that.
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