This is topic Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman? in forum Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities at Legion World.


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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Hiya! And welcome to the Dr. Gym'lls' edition of Lardy's Roundtable!

What's Lardy's Roundtable you ask? It's a roundrobin discussion of appropriate forum topics with a rotating, evolving focus! The original roundtable was here in the LSH forum and ran a whopping 68 pages last summer and discussed various Legion-related topics before finally running out of steam. The topics in the Roundtable weren't necessarily unique to other topics but had more of a conversational style that built on itself.

After thinking about it, I decided to revive the concept for Gym'll's, especially since in my opinion this forum could maybe use a little more juice. So we'll let things start rolling with a topic and see if the idea catches fire again!

First up.......

[ January 13, 2011, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Chief Lardy ]
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Alright, here's the sitch:

The economy has hit you really, REALLY hard in the wallet. You've crunched the numbers and you can only afford to buy as many as five titles a month. What are your five must-haves? (no fudging, please--no more than five!!)

The rules:

1) No Legion! If you're registered here, odds are Legion's gonna make the cut. But consider the current title is ending, L3W is published irregularly and only has 3 issues remaining and we don't know exactly what we're going to get yet with Adventure, so I think it's fair.

2) Minis are okay, so long as they have at least four issues left in them.

3) Please don't include titles already announced as cancelled, and if you choose Amazing Spider-man, that one counts as three titles. Upcoming titles already solicited are eligible, but make sure you feel strongly about them and can say why

4) No OGNs, trades, etc...just monthlies.

5) Finally, tell us why they are so awesome that they can't be missed in as many or as few words as you want!

Clear enough? Let's hear it!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
My list:

*Green Lantern: My most traditional superhero pick on the list. What can I say? Geoff Johns is THE MAN, and GL is the title where he's clicking on all cylinders! I've always liked Hal Jordan, and Geoff literally brought him back from the dead. Awesome, awesome comic with no signs of letdown forthcoming.

*Scalped: Wow! Vertigo lives again for me! I'd been in a Vertigo recession since Y: The Last Man ended, but I read a column in Brubaker's Criminal about this title about Indian mob bosses, a kickass nunchuk-slingin', hard livin' main character with loads of secrets and enough eye-opening relevance about life on a Reservation--and I haven't looked back since! It's gritty, brilliant, full of shocks and very different from anything you'd normally expect from Vertigo! I'm hooked for the duration!

*Daredevil: I knew I had to pick an Ed Brubaker title for this list. Criminal would've made the cut, but it's currently on hiatus while Ed and Sean Philips fire up Incognito. In any case while Ed's Captain America is in a slight slump, DD is really beginning to fire on all cylinders! Ed spent much of his first two years trying to tie up the Bendis era, but he's really starting to rock out on the title! This title is evolving more and more and is starting to feel like a huge epic that harkens back to the salad days with Frank Miller.

*Walking Dead: The single title I'm most addicted to currently! The zombie apocalypse has arrived, and it's not over in two hours! With no end in sight, we follow an ever-evolving core of characters (because many, many die as we go along--even hugely popular ones!) as they struggle to survive not only zombies but each other! Not for the faint of heart but really, really satisfying horror because of the human element.

*The fifth was surprisingly hard to narrow down, but I'll go with The Immortal Iron Fist for the moment. This is a character who'd been the butt of jokes forever until Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction finally realized the character's potential when the started his new ongoing last year. I was always fond of Danny Rand, and those guys showed me why. I love the mysticism, the legacy and the overall coolness this title has. Best of all, it hasn't dropped off at all since Duane Swierczynski took over this year--one story arc under his belt, and I'm sold! How often does that happen when a lower tier character is revived and the hot creators leave? Not very often.

Other than GL, all of these have in common a more nontraditional gritty, realistic or stylized artistic take. I've become quite enamored of art that is less traditionally "pretty" in recent years, but they are all very well crafted and appropriate to their subject matter. (That said, I think Ivan Reis's more traditional Neal Adams-esque art style is absolutely gorgeous!)

So, anyway, that's what I would pare it down to out of the twenty or so titles I pick up each month--at the moment at least!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
- GREEN LANTERN I concur for the most part with Lardy on this title, although I'm only cautiously optimistic about its future storylines. The Red Lanterns special was a huge disappointment to me, and it actually gets worse from re-reads (the layouts are utterly incoherent). I really think Geoff Johns is burning out in general -- it happens to a lot of talented writers who take on a lot of books at once. Blackest Night no longer seems like a sure thing -- besides Johns' burnout, there's also the factor that Ethan Van Sciver, who was originally supposed to draw that arc, will now be doing the Flash relaunch and Ivan Reis is taking his place; I love Ivan Reis, but I don't think he has the necessary atmospherics to be 100% right for Blackest Night. So why am I sticking with this book? Well, for one thing I'm hoping Johns proves me wrong -- after the dodgy Alpha Lanterns arc (which seems to have been done mostly as a favor to Grant Morrison), Johns came back in high style with Secret Origin, so maybe he'll find his third wind. And for another thing, I love Hal Jordan and I learned the hard way not to take him for granted, so I will be buying this title as long as Hal stars in it. I also have to mention that Green Lantern Corps almost made the cut, and it's an excellent book, but in a scenario like this one, I'd take Hal's book.

- THUNDERBOLTS If you've read the Adam Strange mini from a few years back, or the underrated and much-missed The Losers, you know that Andy Diggle delivers rip-roaring action like nobody else. But he's also great at characterization and dialogue (Moonstone: "Really, Songbird...that's no way to treat Prada.") It appears that this book is going to stray from its roots, but I don't mind because I was never a Thunderbolts fan in the first place. I'm just happy to have a great talent like Diggle playing around with the Marvel Universe toy chest.

- GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY A few years ago, DC was the place to be for space opera, with the Adam Strange and Rann-Thanagar War minis. These days, DC entrusts all their space opera stuff to that burned-out has-been Jim Starlin, while over at Marvel, DnA are, through this book, redefining the cosmos like no one since...well, Starlin back when he was good.

- WAR OF KINGS (Mini) And speaking of DnA, they're pitting the Shi'ar against the Inhumans, and for someone who loves The Imperial Guard and Crystal as much as I do, there's just no question I'll be picking this up. Having DnA's GotG artist, the phenomenal Paul Pelletier, on visuals is the icing on the cake.

- R.E.B.E.L.S. (Upcoming) While I wish it wasn't just Dox and Strata from the old team (no points for guessing which character I'd especially like to see come back), Tony Bedard's sincere love for L.E.G.I.O.N., and his commitment to this project makes it a no-brainer for me. I eagerly await the first issue.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Great question Lardy! And a hella-tough one for me to answer. As you know, I’ve traditionally collected most of the Marvel & DC output with my father, so this is very hard. But I will try to answer your question per your strict guidelines, since in general, I’m a fan of questions with strict guidelines

I will say this though: I would always collect Amazing Spider-Man, no matter what. So if it meant not eating breakfast in the morning three days a month to pick up the latest issue of ASM I would do that, even if the new creative team of Chuck Austen and Rob Liefield took over (I’m not saying I wouldn’t take the train into NYC and find Quesada at his local brewery and punch him out, but you get my drift). That all being said, I’m NOT going to include it on my list right now.

So:

Green Lantern – I echo everyone’s thoughts here. This is DC’s best comic book, and I think its been utterly fantastic since the rebirth of Hal. I like the way Geoff treats all the characters with respect, I like how he has made major parts of the GL mythos serious and interesting again (Sinestro, Hector Hammond, etc.). I like how Geoff has taken the overall GL mythos and expanded it exponentially in so many ways. Things like the yellow weakness being further explored and explained, and the more in depth and frankly better explanation of Parallax was brilliant. Geoff Johns IMO is a phenomenal talent and is definitely worthy of all the praise he gets—posters who don’t think so are just plain wrong . And this is the best comic he’s ever done.

Fables – At this point, Fables not only ranks up there with Sandman and Preacher, it ranks up there with Moore’s Swamp Thing and other of the greatest runs of all time in comics history. Its so good and yet every time I open up an issue I’m surprised by just how damn good it is. It continues to be a possible, and probable, pick for single best ongoing series in comic books, as it has for the last several years.

Captain America – Its been extremely tough to decide which of Bru’s best Marvel books IMO I would keep, or if I would just keep both: Captain America and Daredevil. Both are excellent beyond words and I can’t recommend them enough. (Lardy, I’ll still try to give Iron Fist a try soon, I just need to find my ‘entry’ to it). But at the end of the day, the comic book I probably have enjoyed the most in the last year has been Captain America. Everything about it just clicks on all cylinders: art, pacing, dialogue, characters, story, the ‘building’ sense to every issue. I absolutely love it. Its not only Marvel’s best comic, but its also a contender for best comic book in the industry. I trust Brubaker so much at the head of Cap’s title that anything he does from this point on I will be on board: keep Cap dead, bring Cap back, kill Bucky again, Sharon turns out to be a skrull (well, maybe there are some limits).

Guardians of the Galaxy – DnA showed signs of genius during their tenure on the Legion but they had many flaws. Likewise, so many of the GotG characters are just so great but have had so many poor storylines. Bringing them all together? Pure magic. THIS is the DnA comic book I’ve always wanted. THIS is the best science-fiction comic book on the market, hands down. I can see Edmond Hamilton, John Broome and Otto Binder picking this up off the rack and enjoying it, while at the same time I can see Jack Kirby doing the same. That latter is because beyond a science-fiction comic, this is action packed, filled with drama, and with a heightened sense of character-driven tensions between the Guardians and the various other characters. Paul Pelletier’s art is spectacular, reminding everyone that he is indeed the underrated premier artist that has been consistently been rocking my face off for over ten years. You don’t like or buy GotG? Ha! I always thought you were stupid, all of you, stupid!

The Umbrella Academy – There are several independent comics that have been immense surprises to me this past year like the Walking Dead, Mice Templar, Four Eyes (even one issue in), and of course Fallen Angel remains excellent. But one in particular blew me away so much that if it came down to it, I’d keep this over the large majority of the Marvel and DC’s I’ve always loved and collected, and that’s the Umbrella Academy. Gerard Way has come in with such an enthusiasm for being fun, being bizarre, being dramatic, being action-packed, and creating a mythology and history to characters that makes me beg to learn as much as I possibly can. Approaching each issue like an old Silver Age tale, he packs in soooo much information that I feel like not only did I get my money’s worth, I kind of made out on the deal.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
SECRET SIX: This is a book geared towards my kind of morality. These characters define the word gray- they live their own code, they don’t want to be “evil” but have no desire to conform to society’s standards. From the original Villains United mini through now, they’ve shown to have a core of humanity inside them rivaling the Rogues. Gail tests them, and while they are flawed, they do a right thing, as best they know how. And they aren’t opposed to living it up a bit too.

THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY: You want kids with powers? Check. You like your X-drama, we got it. Love those wild Silver Age adventures? Here’s a few more for you. Gerard Way brings an energy to comics, the same Geoff Johns brought 10 years ago. He meshes the frivolity of days gone with the maturity of modern books, giving us the bright heroism we first loved. This book is everything everyone has been asking for in their comics for the last few years.

JONAH HEX: See Secret Six. And I’m not a westerns guy. But something about this bounty hunter and his gray uniform appeals to me. He’s cantankerous at best, mercenary to the core, and intriguing to read about. GrayPal give us realistic stories of the wild west, showing how morality has evolved as civilization grows. And stories are told in one issue, for most of the run. This is a fine example of what monthly books can be. It’s a little gritty for younger readers, but there’s always a sense of justice in Hex’s world, if not in the story proper.

GREEN LANTERN CORPS: Not pronounced “Corpse.” Kyle is my Green Lantern, this is where I find him each month. Peter Tomasi is providing a good outlet for him, but still room to improve. It is a good ensemble book, bringing a number of characters with various personalities in a non-team fashion. Take Kyle out and I can’t guarantee I will stay, but it is a good book, worthy companion to the main GL title (which should be Hal and Kyle!)

GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY: If Kyle is my GL, DnA are my writers. I follow them wherever they go, and they don’t displease. This book might just be the perfect fit for them. Abnett is a sci-fi writer by day, so he’s at home here. They bring an earthy feel to the space opera. It’s action and comedy. Like Cobie said, the cast haven’t had the greatest success or longevity, but here they all work.


I struggled with the list because you mentioned keeping out books I know are cancelled- Birds of Prey and Nightwing. And I collect a lot of higher selling books (like TWD) in trade for cost effectiveness. Looking at my list (and my Buy Pile post) it surprised me to see books under the #50 mark.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I kind of surprised myself too. I was surprised that I included the Umbrella Academy because I don't go as crazy about as some others, but I realized that I just really have so much fun reading that comic, you know? I get "that feeling" when I read Umbrella Academy...that same feeling I get when I read the Englehart Avengers stories, the Silver Age Spideys, Crisis on Infinite Earths...where I feel like I'm 12 years old, its 1:00 AM on a late Saturday night and everyone has fallen asleep but I've somehow tricked my way into staying up to read comics and drink soda and eat pretzels or something and the world is exactly how I want it to be. I've been chasing that feeling ever since I turned 14.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
GREEN LANTERN: I waited over ten years for this title! Hal's return to greatness with a great writer and artist who understand why Hal's awesome!

JUSTICE LEAGUE (upcoming): Hal and Ollie start their own League -- 'nuff said!!

DAREDEVIL: Better than Bendis' run, the best thing on DD since Miller that wasn't just dusting off Miller's toys.

THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST: This title figured out how to make a kung fu guy relevant in the Marvel Universe and deepens the mythology without shoe-horning in aliens or other weirdness just to be unexpected.

AGENTS OF ATLAS (upcoming): Secret Agent, Gorilla-Man, Killer Robot, Man from Space, Woman from Atlantis. What else could you want??
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Fables – At this point, Fables not only ranks up there with Sandman and Preacher, it ranks up there with Moore’s Swamp Thing and other of the greatest runs of all time in comics history. Its so good and yet every time I open up an issue I’m surprised by just how damn good it is. It continues to be a possible, and probable, pick for single best ongoing series in comic books, as it has for the last several years.

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quote:

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Captain America – Its been extremely tough to decide which of Bru’s best Marvel books IMO I would keep, or if I would just keep both: Captain America and Daredevil. Both are excellent beyond words and I can’t recommend them enough. (Lardy, I’ll still try to give Iron Fist a try soon, I just need to find my ‘entry’ to it). But at the end of the day, the comic book I probably have enjoyed the most in the last year has been Captain America. Everything about it just clicks on all cylinders: art, pacing, dialogue, characters, story, the ‘building’ sense to every issue. I absolutely love it. Its not only Marvel’s best comic, but its also a contender for best comic book in the industry. I trust Brubaker so much at the head of Cap’s title that anything he does from this point on I will be on board: keep Cap dead, bring Cap back, kill Bucky again, Sharon turns out to be a skrull (well, maybe there are some limits).

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Des knows I also love Bru's Cap, but I'd say DD has the edge over Cap in the intensity level at this exact moment. Cap's currently kind of finding a status quo, which is something it hasn't done previously in its whole run! It's still excellent, but hold me to one Bru title at this moment and DD's got the edge.

And what entry point do you NEED for Iron Fist exactly, Des? Volume One trade "The Last Iron Fist" ain't easy enough? Don't force me to give you a Scalped-style talkin' to again!!!

quote:

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Guardians of the Galaxy – DnA showed signs of genius during their tenure on the Legion but they had many flaws. Likewise, so many of the GotG characters are just so great but have had so many poor storylines. Bringing them all together? Pure magic. THIS is the DnA comic book I’ve always wanted. THIS is the best science-fiction comic book on the market, hands down. I can see Edmond Hamilton, John Broome and Otto Binder picking this up off the rack and enjoying it, while at the same time I can see Jack Kirby doing the same. That latter is because beyond a science-fiction comic, this is action packed, filled with drama, and with a heightened sense of character-driven tensions between the Guardians and the various other characters. Paul Pelletier’s art is spectacular, reminding everyone that he is indeed the underrated premier artist that has been consistently been rocking my face off for over ten years. You don’t like or buy GotG? Ha! I always thought you were stupid, all of you, stupid!

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quote:

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The Umbrella Academy – There are several independent comics that have been immense surprises to me this past year like the Walking Dead, Mice Templar, Four Eyes (even one issue in), and of course Fallen Angel remains excellent. But one in particular blew me away so much that if it came down to it, I’d keep this over the large majority of the Marvel and DC’s I’ve always loved and collected, and that’s the Umbrella Academy. Gerard Way has come in with such an enthusiasm for being fun, being bizarre, being dramatic, being action-packed, and creating a mythology and history to characters that makes me beg to learn as much as I possibly can. Approaching each issue like an old Silver Age tale, he packs in soooo much information that I feel like not only did I get my money’s worth, I kind of made out on the deal.

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This is also on probably my very next IST order. I don't know how in the hell the guy behind the atrocity that is My Chemical Romance could make ANYTHING worth reading, but I'm trusting that dozens of LWers and professional reviewers alike aren't conspiring to pull a huge joke on me!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST: This title figured out how to make a kung fu guy relevant in the Marvel Universe and deepens the mythology without shoe-horning in aliens or other weirdness just to be unexpected.

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Drake, do you concur with my assessment that Iron Fist has maintained the momentum very well since the creative team changed with #17?
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Ceej, I was definitely surprised that no Kirkman titles made your list! Do you collect all of them in trades? Do you buy everything with his name on it (including Brit which he doesn't actually write)?

I never put this in the rules, but I'd thought about trade collectors and wondered if this limitation I set would force trade collectors to get their favorite trade books as monthlies instead. The theory being that if you can only afford five titles, then trades are definitely out of the question. (Just a thought, anyway--not moodifying the rules)
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
I collect TWD in trade. By the time Scott sunk his teeth in me, issues were in the 30's. It would be a monthly book if it weren't so popular; most of my trade collections are like that.

I do read Kirkman's Astonishing Wolfman monthly, but it's not in the top five. It's a fun title, just waiting for the real hook to grab me.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Thanks for the tip on In-Stock Trades! I'm trying to catch up on Walking Dead both ways: I'm working backwards to get all single issues to about #28/29 or whatever issue at that point is where a trade ends, and then I'll work upwards with trades from #1 on. I'm lax with ordering trades though so while I'm getting those back-issues more and more each time I go to the CBR, I really need to get the trades so I can finally catch up.

The Daredevil vs. Cap thing (about which is better) is the kind of arguement I enjoy profiting from . Both are just so damn good! Iron Fist is on my list of things to pick up immediately, along with Madman, which I think i will finally after all these years give a chance to (and possibly Hellboy). I also bought several Skaar: Son of Hulk recently but have yet to read them.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
My list is being whittled down, even if LSH books haven't been ending left, right and center, because I'm expecting a big geographical move this summer (in fact, I'll be getting rid of a lot of comics, late 70s to late 80s DCs (only sporadically thereafter), 80s/90s indies, and Vertigo in particular. PM me any gap lists and I may be able to help out, or keep an eye out for a link to my list, once its compiled).

I prefer trades anyway, and series like Fables and Starman are to me preferable that way. Hoped Scalped becomes one of those collected series. Even old favorites like Sandman, AM's Swamp Thing and others where I have both original issues and Trades, I'm keeping the TPBs and unloading the issues.

I'm probably axing JSA with Johns' departure. I've been getting a bunch of indies that only come out 1ce or 2ce a year if I'm lucky, and they're all getting axed.

1. The Boys and
2. Hellblazer
might be the only books on my list in the near future. I've been following John Constantine/Hellblazer continuously since his 1st appearance, and even have a lot of AR apperances. And it's been decent lately as well.

The Boys is a hoot, a very black humor look at a geopolitical world of superheroes as part of the defence-contractor industrial complex. That it pokes fun at all the major SHs of both Marvel and DC doesn't hurt.
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
INCREDIBLE HERCULES: an exciting blend of superheroics, Greco-Marvel mythology (surprisingly the Greek part isn't so overshadowed by the Marvel part) and a buddy movie. Sort of like Route 66 on the river Styx. And humor's allowed.

JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA: Yeah, I know Johns is off the book soon- but I'm still hooked on these characters. I hope there's a lot more personal stuff ahead for them.

KINGBREAKER/WAR OF KINGS: Inhumans, big roles for Crystal and Medusa, Havok and Polaris, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Imperial Guard in one storyline? Written by DNA (the first time a former LSH writer's written the Guard?) I gotta see if this lives up to its potential.

WONDER WOMAN: Teenage talking gorillas. I don't need to type anything else.

TEEN TITANS: This is here due to the future involvement of Kid Eternity. If he ends up as a guest star, or the book sucks anyway, this slot'll go to GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY-- or better yet a LADY LIBERATORS series, if Marvel gets some guts and gives that a try.

They don't come out regularly enough to warrant space on the list, but I'd always find moolah for AGE OF BRONZE and A DISTANT SOIL.
 

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Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
 
My List:

JLA - This is the premiere team book
JSA - Being well-written right now
Flash - My favorite character


Can't think of any other that would constitute a must have.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
I don't hit the shops as regularly as I used to so I don't really have a "must have" right away list that doesn't include all things Legion.

Still though...I always get Liberty Meadows in a stack of about five or six issues at a time. LM is one of the very best light reading comics I've read in years and years and Brandy is ULTRA hot.

Any and all Astro City one shots and specials since the (so called) ongoing series seems to have been lost to the time wasting nonsense of "regular work".

JSA for the time being. Whether or not I buy it in the futire is up in the air, we'll see what it's quality is like with the creative team switch but until then I just gotta have it.

Those Annoying Post Brothers by Matt Howarth. I'm a huge Howarth fan since the Bros. appeared in Heavy Metal back in the stoneed age. I get all the spin opffs and specials that show up too. He's uber weird and writes excellent sci-fi.

[plug] The Keif Llama - Xenotech series (by the same Matt Howarth) is fantastic! Last year 3 issues plus a new filler story were published as a trade called Particle Dreams and priced at 9.99 it's more than worth it to get it if you can find it anywhere.[/plug]

Hmm..looks like the only thing I buy that isn't in danger of cancellation or intermittent publishing breaks is JSA.
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
Interesting how much Green Lantern love there is. I haven't read a Green Lantern book since before Hal died. I'm afraid if I started buying it now, it would go bad.

Fables is a must have. I love the way the fairy tale characters are adapted and updated, but often keeping their old fairy tale ethics. Characters I'd forgotten about appear (like Rose Red). Willingham manages to get me interested in characters I thought would be boring, like Boy Blue and Flycatcher. The addition of the Arabian and India-based stories show how much scope Willingham has to continue this series.

Criminal/Incognito I'll put these down as one, since Brubaker is doing Incognito while on taking a break from Criminal. I'm not generally a hard-boiled detective/crime fan, but Brubaker won me with Sleeper - so I tried Criminal. The series has great stories, contained in arcs of several issues, with meaty interviews and essays at the end of each issue. I haven't even read Incognito yet, but since Brubaker describes it as a reverse Sleeper (bad buy pretending to be a good guy), I'm pre-hooked. (I'm surprised you didn't list this one, Lardy.)

Guardians of the Galaxy - space opera, but with small enough a core of characters that I don't get lost, since these are all new to me. Interesting background concepts, lots of strange secondary aliens and probably the best animal characters I've read (outside of a strictly animal book like We3).

Top Ten - I'll take a flyer on this, since I've only read the first issue, but I loved the complexity and easter egginess of the original Top Ten and it looks like it's continuing with this second series.

The last one's a tough call, between Ambush Bug and Umbrella Academy. I'll go with Ambush Bug for the guaranteed cheap laughs.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Fables – At this point, Fables not only ranks up there with Sandman and Preacher, it ranks up there with Moore’s Swamp Thing and other of the greatest runs of all time in comics history. Its so good and yet every time I open up an issue I’m surprised by just how damn good it is. It continues to be a possible, and probable, pick for single best ongoing series in comic books, as it has for the last several years.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
Fables is one of those Vertigo titles I missed the boat on when it first started up, but you can bet I'll be TPBing it like crazy soon enough.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
Fables is a must have. I love the way the fairy tale characters are adapted and updated, but often keeping their old fairy tale ethics. Characters I'd forgotten about appear (like Rose Red). Willingham manages to get me interested in characters I thought would be boring, like Boy Blue and Flycatcher. The addition of the Arabian and India-based stories show how much scope Willingham has to continue this series.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
[QB]Interesting how much Green Lantern love there is. I haven't read a Green Lantern book since before Hal died. I'm afraid if I started buying it now, it would go bad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
Criminal/Incognito I'll put these down as one, since Brubaker is doing Incognito while on taking a break from Criminal. I'm not generally a hard-boiled detective/crime fan, but Brubaker won me with Sleeper - so I tried Criminal. The series has great stories, contained in arcs of several issues, with meaty interviews and essays at the end of each issue. I haven't even read Incognito yet, but since Brubaker describes it as a reverse Sleeper (bad buy pretending to be a good guy), I'm pre-hooked. (I'm surprised you didn't list this one, Lardy.)

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It was tempting to list Incognito instead of Iron Fist or Daredevil, but I went with comics that I've actually had in my hands. Make no mistake, I'm picking up Incognito (out this week, I think?)...but I never annoint anything before I've actually read it as being one of the very best comics!

Yeah, I know it probably will be based on my love for Ed and Sean's work together, but there's no guarantee it'll capture lightning in a bottle like Sleeper did. (Man, I loved Sleeper!)

So I'm sure it'll be awesome, but let me read at least an issue first, 'kay?
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
So with 14 people responding, the Top Five vote-getters were:

1) Guardians of the Galaxy & Justice Society of America (Tie: 5 votes apiece)

2) Green Lantern (4 and a half votes--I counted Abin's GL/GLC combo as half apiece)

3) The Walking Dead (4 votes)

4) Fables (3 votes)

That's an interesting result. I read 3 of these. Of the two I don't, I've recently acquired the Guardians issues, but haven't read them yet, and I plan on starting picking up the trades on Fables sometime in '09.

I'm curious...if you don't get any of these, is it possible that this result has piqued your interest in trying out any of them soon?
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Okay, so let's turn the topic around....

...what titles (as many as five) that you are currently getting would be the easiest for you to drop right now?

(try to observe the rules of the other challenge..i.e. title isn't already known to be ending soon, etc.)
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
I'm not getting that many more than five - easiest to drop would be the irregular issues (Berlin and Mouse Guard - I even forget about them until they show up in my box) or the limited series (Atomic Robo and Umbrella Academy). I'd probably get those in TPB, though.

quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
I'm curious...if you don't get any of these, is it possible that this result has piqued your interest in trying out any of them soon?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
I'm curious...if you don't get any of these, is it possible that this result has piqued your interest in trying out any of them soon?

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As someone looking to get less (and indeed get rid of 1/2 my comics) in anticipation of a big move... no.

1) Guardians of the Galaxy & Justice Society of America (Tie: 5 votes apiece)

Already get JSA (for the next month or three, anyway)

I'd probably eventually get GotG in TPB several years from now, if it holds up.

2) Green Lantern (4 and a half votes

As an old-time GL fan, I felt even more wrung through the ringer by the Owlsey/Emerald Yawn/Reign of the Supermen/Parallax/Spectre era than even the most gilted Legion fan could feel (LSH as a collective never went evil/crazy/undead/alcoholic etc).

I guess I felt so burned by prior GL runs that as good as this era might be it's hard to feign interest - I'd always be expecting the other shoe to drop. In 10 years, maybe I'll get the trades.

3) The Walking Dead (4 votes)

no interest at all.

4) Fables (3 votes)

I get this in trades already.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I certainly will always give my fellow LWers reccomendations a shot, and in fact have been doing that a whole lot more lately with great results. If not for Pov (Umbrella Academy), CJ & Scooter (Walking Dead), Blacula (Madame Xanadu), Reboot (Agents of Atlas) and so many others, I would be missing on out a bunch of stuff. And now Lardy, you will have contributed with Scalped, once I get a few moments to read it

Titles I could drop quickly? Well, some titles my father and I continue to get because in some instances one of us will decide its not worth getting anymore, but the other will want to keep getting it. For me:

(1) Hulk - worst Marvel comic I buy right now

(2) Teen Titans - this is the absolute lowest point in Titans history, worse than the 90's.

(3) All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder - I honestly only buy this because its a train wreck and I like Jim Lee's art. Its like buying something to see it crash and burn. So if it came down to it, no, I certainly don't need this comic. Frank Miller reaches the level of genius sometimes, but this is assuredly the worst comic book work he's ever done.

(4) Justice League of America - I can't understand how anyone can have enjoyed any of this relaunch. Sure, its a great line-up, and sure, the artwork is pretty spectacular, but I've yet to see even good storyline by Meltzer and even McDuffie, who I usually like.

(5) Astonishing X-Men - This has got to be the comic that both X-Fans and X-Strangers can agree is completely overrated, overhyped and outright boring.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Which ones would I drop? This was hard because I've just recently started picking up some new titles, many of which I haven't read any or enough of to form a decisive opinion, yet. So I tried to limit my choices to titles I've at least read three to five issues of.....

1) Runaways: Cheating a bit here because I picked up my last issue last week. But what a horrible disappointment this was! I'd heard many good things about Moore, and I'd enjoyed Ramos's art in the past--but UGH! I really miss Vaughn & Alphona.

2) Action Comics: NOT excited about the exits of Johns and Kal-El and the entrance of a new Nightwing and Flamebird. Who knows--it could be a fan-favorite run, but I don't know if I'm willing to take that chance.

3) Invincible Iron Man: There's absolutely nothing wrong with this title--it's very well-written and drawn, but I'm just not a big Tony Stark fan. If I were in a pinch or if Matt Fraction jumped off, I'd have no trouble dropping it. It's a good, good comic, though. Weird, huh?

4) Booster Gold: This is probably a knee-jerk reaction to an 4 awful issues of fill-ins after Johns and Katz left, and I haven't read the first Jurgens-written issue yet--but this title is in huge danger of running off the tracks. I'm hopeful that Jurgens can right the ship, but four issues of barfy fill-ins was a mistake!

5) Angel: After the Fall: They're really dragging out the "LA in Hell" storyline. Recent issues have had very little progress in the story. To me it's obvious Joss Whedon's hand is not as firm here as it is on Buffy's title. It's had his moments, but I can't help but think the story could've been told better in 10-12 issues.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
It's tough to say... comics I would drop I usually do. There have been books I've held on too long. Case in point:

1: Green Arrow/Black Canary Winnick's work has been hot and cold before our heroes got married. Since then, it's been just meh. I hope the new writer can make it work.

2: GLC I put this on my faves list because Kyle Rayner is in it, and he's a favourite character. If he left the book, so would I.

3: RASL Jeff Smith has me very interested in the story. But the 6 months between issues makes me forget it's even on my reading list. I could drop it and collect in trade years from now and not feel like I missed something.

4: X-Factor PAD is giving me a good story, but the art is in constant flux. If Marvel doesn't care about the book, why should I?

5: The Authority The Wildstorm books get bad rap from their history. With the recent World End storyline, they've really taken a chance. That said, when DnA leave (left already) the book, I think this could be the weakest of the relaunches.

[ February 03, 2009, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: CJ Taylor ]
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
Five keepers:

1) Morrison/Quietley Batman As much as I liked RIP, I'm skipping Battle for the Cowl as it seems irrelevant, but if the rumours are true about Grant & Frank taking on Batman, I'll be there for that.

2) Hellblazer - Peter Milligan is consistently one of my favourite writers and if he can bring some of his old Vertigo magic back for this title, I'll be very happy.

3) Madame Xanadu - This has been a great read, and an interesting take on the character. Plus it's got that old Swamp Thing vibe, where DCU elements are blended in quite nicely with the adult storytelling.

4) Secret Six - while the first storyline is losing a bit of steam for me, I have faith Gail bring this title back up to it's awful goodness.

I'm at a loss for the fifth one. I'd Say Ambush Bug or Sub-Mariner, but those are both ending soon. I'm really on the fence about Willingham writing JSA, and may wait for the trade on Superman: Secret Origin.
 

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Posted by dedman on :
 
I'm going to pass on this round. As I'm in school now, I recently dropped almost all my titles until I start working again (plan on buying back issues when I start working again).
So all told I dropped about 20 titles, maybe more.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
5 easy drops...

BRAVE & THE BOLD... which I have JUST dropped...

TINY TITANS (it's cute and all, but if I had to...)

GREEN ARROW/BLACK CANARY... I can follow Dinah in JLA...

SHE-HULK... It just isn't the same post-Slott...

Hmmm... I may need to go check my pulls... BOOSTER GOLD is too fun to drop, JLA is a good way to keep track of many characters... BOP is already cancelled... it's likely between TITANS and TEEN TITANS... I'll go with...

TEEN TITANS... that damned 80s nostalgia keeps me with plain-TITANS...
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Cool answers!

So, changing subjects...what is currently the best creative team on a title you enjoy that's currently being published? Please give us some insight about why you think so and how it might compare to other past creative teams you hold in high regard.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Even though they've only been a team for two issues, I have to say Andy Diggle and Roberto De La Torre, because Thunderbolts # 127 was one of those history-making great issues where words and pictures are so perfectly synchronized that it seems almost magical. They give the printed page the kind of excitement that I felt my early days of superhero comics from teams like Peter David & Dale Keown on Hulk or Bob Harras & Steve Epting on Avengers or, more recently, Peter David & Pablo Raimondi on the Madrox mini-series and (all-too-briefly) on X-Factor or DnA and Paul Pelletier on Guardians of the Galaxy. When writer(s) and artist are so in tune with each other you would think they're sharing one mind when they work, even though you know that they probably don't socialize with each other and might not have even met face-to-face.

Get Thunderbolts # 127 off the racks or as a back issue! Give it a chance!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Stealth, those are pretty big words considering just the two issues. Lotsa variables, including whether or not they will be together longterm. In this day and age, it's hard to keep a writer and artist together even for a whole story arc. Hopefully, Diggle and De La Torre will be one of those, going by your enthusiasm. Maybe I'll check 'em out....
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
There are definitely some good candidates out there on current or recent projects that I read: Geoff Johns has terrific collaborations with Ivan Reis on Green Lantern, Gary Frank on Action Comics and the upcoming Superman: Secret Origin, Scott Kolins on Flash, Rogues Revenge and the Solomon Grundy one-shot and George Perez on Legion of Three Worlds. Jason Aaron and R.M. Guera are making some magic on Scalped. Robert Kirkman has awesome collaborations with Charlie Adlard on Walking Dead and Ryan Ottley on Invincible.

Honestly, there are a lot more great teams out there than I thought there were. But it comes down to Ed Brubaker's books for me and how all three projects he's currently working on are instant classics borne of a special synergy with his artists. Who can dispute what he and Steve Epting have done on Captain America? And he has a long history with Michael Lark, dating back to Gotham Central and currently bearing fruit for us on a gripping run on Daredevil.

But it's Brubaker and Sean Philips who I think set the bar for other creative teams in the industry. From Sleeper to Criminal and now to Incognito, this duo has produced about 44 issues of some of the very best comics I've ever read. I'd never been a huge fan of "gritty" art before I encountered Sleeper, but their collaborations have really opened my eyes in appreciation. Their words and pictures complement each other perfectly. Sure, they've never done a straight superhero comic, but I bet if they did it would kick some serious ASS! Brubaker and Philips set the bar in a way that compares favorably to the best collaborations Frank Miller & Klaus Janson. I'd say they're the Miller and Janson of this era and could probably teach Frank and Klaus a few tricks!
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
I tend to follow writers more than teams, but anything by Brubaker and Philips is going to get my attention (and quite likely my money) simply because they've captivated me with everything they've done so far. At first, I didn't like Philips' art, but it's grown on me and it has a distinctive style. I don't think Brubaker's crime stories would have the same feeling drawn by anyone else at this point.

Another team that makes me sit up and take notice is Morrison and Quitely. I haven't chased down everything they've done, but All Star Superman, We3, Flex Mentallo stand out from the crowd.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
I can't think of a writer/artist team I follow, but Simone and Scott are making me take notice. They were great on BOP and are amazing on Secret Six. Given time, these two will be a force to know in the comics world. Simone writes characters from iconic to twisted, funny through romantic, and Nicola Scott has managed to draw it all.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Like FC, I tend to follow writers more than teams, though some artists will get me to buy their books too. In fact, I'd say the Darwyn Cooke/Darywn Cooke team is probably my favorite

But to answer the question, probably right now I'd say DnA with Paul Pelletier. I've always liked DnA a real lot (and hey, I was one of the original posters who named them DnA in the first place!), but I don't think their Legion run was the greatest thing ever like some people--I'd call it 'great' but not 'one of the greatest'. Well, with everything they've done at Marvel in the last 3-4 years, I can now throw that notion away, because what they are doing now is some of the greatest stuff they've ever done, some of the greatest stuff in comics in general, and some of the greatest science-fiction space opera ever in comics. They are peaking right now, and have hit a level where they're just firing on all cylinders. Everything from pacing, to dialogue, to grand plots, to small character moments, to using very different characters interactin to their advantage is just so good I can't help but eat it up. And I especially like how they balance a solo title (Nova) with a team book (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I think War of Kings has the potential to be incredible.

Paul Pelletier is their partner on GotG, and he's an artist I've followed for years, since the mid-90's. His runs on Flash, Green Lantern (with Kyle) and the 90's Outsiders book (which hey, I thought was pretty groovy) were awesome because of his art. Then he went through a phase where it seemed like he wasn't really doing much, but then suddenly popped up at Crossgen with Negation and reminded everyone why he's an A-lister artist. Now he's made it over to Marvel and with DnA giving him a wide range of charaters and situations, he's really showing what a tremendous talent he is.

So in effect you have probably the best science-fiction team of authors in comics teaming up with one of the best science-fiction artists in comics, and they're just knocking it out of the park. While War of Kings is running, Pelletier is joining DnA there while another artist fills in for him on GotG, but that's cool with me, because I'm buying both and I'd like to see him draw the Inhumans and the Vulcan/Shi'ar characters along with everyone else.

Its a little hard to find a comparison that I really think works, because I won't be obvious and say something like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, which this team is nothing like. Because DnA are so specific and almost clinical in their delivery of every bit of the story, they remind me slightly of the greats Edmond Hamilton or John Broome who were masters at story-telling, pacing and using science-fiction to the stories advantage. Meanwhile, Pelletier's art is explosive and adds a lot of 'oomph' and action to some low level action sequences, giving the book a charge of energy even during dialogue sequences, so in that respect he does have hints of that Kirby style that Walt Simonsin, Neal Adams or even Todd McFarlane have. Not that his art looks anything like theirs, which it doesn't, but it has that same type of high-energy to it. In fact, his art is very pleasing on the eyes, while all those other guys don't always have that...Pelletier makes his characters full of emotion and yet also very atractive, which is a very modern combination of past styles.

So in other words, they are rocking right now, and definitely on my radar as one hell of a combination. I picked up the War of Kings mini-series entirely on the basis of their involvement.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
When I think of Pelletier, the main artist that leaps in my mind for comparison's sake would be Alan Davis. I'm not saying at all that Pelletier is an Alan Davis knockoff, but their styles remind me of each other in a way. A very clean, yet dynamic style that harkens back to Perez and Byrne while simultaneously having a modern, progressive feel to it.

I'm happy for Paul and how he's finally getting his due. Yes, he got some attention for Negation specifically, but being the artist on a big Marvel event is certainly a big step up. And certainly Guardians has to be one of the very biggest "buzz" books in all of comics.

And, wow, DnA! In the past few weeks I've read their entire run to date on Nova (including the Annihilation mini), and I am beyond impressed. I never gave a lick one way or another about the character before, but now, I'm a fan because of this great writing team and a number of talented artists they've worked with.

Guardians, I've only read the first two issues, but own all the rest except, frustratingly, issue three (the second printing copy I obtained of issue three had the contents of an issue of Ultimates 3 inside instead--YUCK! ), so I'm waiting to fill that one-issue gap before I proceed further. But those two issues sure are groovy!

I, too, am buying War of Kings because of DnA's (and Paul's) involvement. As good as their Legion work was, they've MAJORLY outdone themselves with their recent work at Marvel!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
If we're talking writers... I would follow DnA anywhere. From ForceWorks to Legion to Shadowman to GotG, they manage to make each book distinct. They defined USAgent and Monstress, brought creepy to Legion and Shadowman; they know how to tailor a book and make it distinct.

For that matter, GrayPal are of similar caliber. They made Hawkman soar after Geoff Johns left. They knock it out of the park each month with Jonah Hex. Justin Gray and Jimmy Palmiotti have written some of the best characters in some of the lesser known books at both Marvel and DC.

I'd follow either team to any book they write.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Hm, one topic I'm interesting in is what current non-superhero comics are people reading that they're really digging. Anyone whose paid attention to my posts on Legion World in the last (6) months has seen I've gone out of my way to pick up things like different war comics, pure science-fiction comics like Dan Dare, and I'm a huge supporter of Jonah Hex and a large portion of the entire Vertigo line.

Don’t get me wrong, I love superhero comic books. In fact, I buy most of the DC and Marvel superhero titles and always have. Know my Dad and I buy at least 50 superhero comics from Marvel and DC alone. But lately I feel that so many creators, particularly at DC, are just getting the superhero genre all wrong, and so I’m enjoying a further branchout into other genres.

In fact, I’d say the current non-superhero comics I’m buying are (likely I’ll leave something out):

Vertigo
House of Mystery
Fables
Scalped (in trades)
Madame Xanadu
Unknown Soldier
Haunted Tank
Young Liars
Northlanders – trying it out

DC
Jonah Hex
SGT Rock

Icon / Marvel
Criminal
Incognito
Powers
Dark Tower comics

Dynamite Entertainment
Battlefields: The Night Witches (and will get other Garth Ennis war comics)

Image
Waking Dead
Four Eyes
Mice Templar
Armed Forces

Dark Horse
Umbrella Academy? – this might count as a superhero comic

IDW
Fallen Angel (PAD’s masterpiece)

Other
Atomic Robo – I will get to this in the thread once I read it. Lets say I came late to the party and plan to rectify the situation. Less Pov come down to casa de Cobalt and give me a spanking.

I’m also drawn lately to comics that are more ‘something else’ than superheroes. For example, DnA’s Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy are far more science-fiction than superhero books and that’s why they’re so good lately. I wish the Legion would get back to that slightly (hell, I wish Superman would get back to that). The Spirit is a crime comic, pure and simple, but I have to admit its been pretty lackluster since Cooke left. Marvel seems to have really gone all out in making some of their traditional superhero comics more outside the superhero genre: Thor, Incredible Hercules, Agents of Atlas, the aforementioned Nova & Guardians of the Galaxy, Skaar Son of Hulk and a few others are all able to stand apart from the typical superhero fair and give us something different. Captain America is basically a spy book and Daredevil is essentially a crime comic, so those have a nice niche too.

I’ve also picked up some random things: (1) Chuck Dixon’s war comic by Wildstorm, but I’m not sure if I’ll finish the series as it was ‘okay’ thus far; (2) Dan Dare, which was a blast but is currently over (and may now resume at IDW), (3) Skaar, Son of Hulk, which was pretty good but I don’t know if I’ll go back for more. Maybe, as I bought more than half the series.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I’m also drawn lately to comics that are more ‘something else’ than superheroes. For example, DnA’s Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy are far more science-fiction than superhero books and that’s why they’re so good lately. I wish the Legion would get back to that slightly (hell, I wish Superman would get back to that). The Spirit is a crime comic, pure and simple, but I have to admit its been pretty lackluster since Cooke left. Marvel seems to have really gone all out in making some of their traditional superhero comics more outside the superhero genre: Thor, Incredible Hercules, Agents of Atlas, the aforementioned Nova & Guardians of the Galaxy, Skaar Son of Hulk and a few others are all able to stand apart from the typical superhero fair and give us something different. Captain America is basically a spy book and Daredevil is essentially a crime comic, so those have a nice niche too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:


Marvel has Dan Slott taking over Mighty Avengers. Will that book see a drop in readers because it's not Bendis? Will someone add it because of Slott (Not me)?

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You'll find my answer in the All Avengers Thread.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Ceej, I personally plan on sticking with JSA after Johns leaves. It's personally my favorite non-Legion team by a mile. It would take the announcement of a writer I can't stand (like Winnick) to get me to leave that book. I'm not very familiar with Willingham's and Sturges's work, but I hear they've done good stuff. So I'm pretty optimistic.

I also think it's a good time for Geoff to move on and give someone else a chance. I've enjoyed the relaunch, but personally, I think Johns hit his peak with Black Reign and JSA/JSA in the old title. My opinion, at least.

Sometimes, I do jump off with creative teams; sometimes I don't. I stuck around on Iron Fist after Brubaker and Fraction left because I'd grown very fond of the title. I gambled on an unfamiliar writer and artist and kept picking it up. It paid off as the new team hasn't missed a beat.

Some people feel they have to follow characters no matter what. Longterm, the only title I've done that with is the Legion. I was like that for over a decade with the X-Men, but I eventually stopped fooling myself about them and have only sporadically picked it up since the mid-'90s. Similarly, I used to follow Batman, Superman & Spider-man through thick and thin. No more.

So I take it on a case-by-case basis. If I'm into the title and characters enough and have no beef with the next creative team, I'm likely to at least give the new team a chance. When Brubaker eventually leaves Cap and Daredevil, I'll have quite the decision ahead of me....
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I take every approach possible with no real rhyme or reason. For example, I'll follow Spider-Man and over a dozen other characters no matter who is writing it.

A spectacular creative team could draw me to a comic but they really have to have *it*. Neither Dan Slott nor Willigham and Sturges would do that, but I planned on continuing those titles anyway. Particularly JSA, and I think Lardy captures why. Johns had a truly amazing run but I think the time has passed and he's moving on at the right time. Unlike many others, I feel that since the relaunch of a #1, it hasn't been as great as it once was. Not bad mind you, and in fact pretty good, just not as truly GREAT as it once was. I don't mind a little shake-up now. Plus, those are the guys on Fables, Jack of Fables and House of Mystery, so thats some grade A talent.

A switch in creative teams is enough to get me off a comic though, particulary in this scenario: I follow a run and am generally let down by a creative team I had high hopes for and then they're replaced anyway by a creative team I have even less hopes for. One example is Astonishing X-Men. Its consistently been letting me down for the last few years since the second arc, and now Warren Ellis is delivery about the most boring / yawn story in X-history. I wish I'd jumped off the new Atom and Birds of Prey after Gail left because they both basically blew chunks without her. I stuck around because I loved the characters and while I at least got to see the characters, the stories they were in generally stunk.

Wolverine is a title I only ever pick up if a great creative team comes on. I did so for Greg Rucka (let down), Mark Millar (probably best Wolverine story I've ever read) and a few others. I didn't pick up the latest Mark Millar run because it just looked like the type of story I'm sick to death of (alternate dark future? Thanks but no thanks). But if say Jeff Parker and Marcos Martin, two Marvel up and comers I'm crazy about right now, took over, I'd definitely deal myself in.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Honestly, I don't think there's any comic I'd follow indefinitely, no matter what, anymore...not even Legion. Legion would be the hardest to let go, but I wouldn't stick with it if the quality was abysmal by my standards. Of course, that's been taken out of my hands, at least for a while. But for whatever reason, the book has maintained decent quality throughout the decades I've read it, with only a few brief lulls here and there.

Like I said, I used to follow lots of titles thru innumerable highs and lows, but I suppose it comes down to the rising cost of comics and my own evolving tastes to get me to the point where that doesn't happen anymore.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I used to follow a title as a die-hard and then Swamp Thing broke me of that habit in a really bad way. After Alan Moore pretty much exploded my young brain, I stuck with the character through successively worse writers (and art teams) until I just couldn't take in anymore and walked away. I've come back to the title a few different times, but never with the commitment I had before.

I think Legion is the only thing I've followed consistently with the exception of the imposed break when "Tales" ended, and I had no Direct Market retailer. When I did find a DM retailer in our area, I was so far out of the story I didn't come back until the reboot.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Rouge, you're possibly the first poster I've encountered who experienced the Baxter series through Tales. It must have been incredibly frustrating to read those stories a year after they were published! And THEN it was cancelled after, what, around the reprinting of issue 30? Man, I can only imagine!

This is a little off-topic, but you're mentioning Swamp Thing and Des mentioning Millar makes me remember that the only time I picked up Swampy regularly (I discovered Moore's after the fact) was during Mark Millar's run with Philip Hester as artist from 140-171. Any time I think to mention it, I try to because that, in my opinion, was a terrific, underrated run! It started off with a four-parter co-written by Grant Morrison and dovetailed into an epic divided into four parts, each named after one of the four elements. Did anyone else read that run? I can hardly believe DC never collected that run, especially as Millar later became a superstar in the industry.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
You've mentioned that to me in the past Lardy but I've never had the chance to read the Millar Swamp Thing stories. Like most I'd suspect, I discovered Swamp Thing well after Moore's run, like 15 years later. I'd actually already read Sandman, Hellraiser and several Swamp Thing-inspired things first.

My Dad did own a large portion of the Swamp Thing run though, so I had easy access to the Moore issues, picked them up--was blown away by them (I can only imagine how cool it was off the stands) and really delved in. The zombie comic-code story really *IS* worth going gaga over and Swamp Thing's trip to space is awesome to behold. But I digress. So I read Veitch's run thereafter and well...it was 'ok'. My Dad apparently thought so too because either he didn't finish the run or stopped sometime after Veitch, but at least several years before Morrison & Millar, my Dad cancelled Swamp Thing completely. He did this with quite a lot of Vertigo titles at this point like Sandman (he wasn’t impressed though I strongly disagree with him) and Shade the Changing Man (which I do agree with—that one got way too off the wall).

One day I'll read them. Mark Millar isn't the greatest writer in the world but he doesn't deserve the wrap he gets from so many posters here and on other websites. Some of his stories really really damn good comics. I think he experienced the same syndrome that causes people to hate Jack from Lost. He was popular and in the public eye too often at one point and there was a backlash. I don't think he's Walt Whitman, but I think he's in the 'better than most' category of modern comic book writers.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I liked Millar's Swamp Thing quite a bit, and thought it was a fine end to the series. BKV's follow-up series starring Tefe was a good offshoot, but I hated the Diggle/Dysart series after that.

Vietch started off alright, but went downhill fast. "Christ" controversy aside, I thought the time-travel story was too derivative of Moore's Space story.

Wheeler and Collins were rotten.

But yes, getting Moore's Swamp Thing off a spinner rack at the pharmacy was pretty wild.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I actually haven't read the entirety of Moore's Swamp Thing yet. Several years ago, Vertigo published a reprint series of it in black and white. I thought Bisset and Veich's art looked really stunning in B&W frankly. The series was cancelled after about 20 issues, so that's as far as I got. I also bought a random TPB that, I think, reprints the outer space story. It's here somewhere, still unread, because I wanted to make sure I read all the stories before it. One of those projects I have to get back to at some point....

As for Millar, there's one story in his run called "City of the Dead" from, I believe, the Water arc that I wish Millar had spun off into its own series. It was THAT good!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Swamp Thing has a reputation. I haven't read it, but it's always one of those books people talk about- mostly I'm assuming for Moore's work on it. There's always someone asking to get it out of the Vertigo-verse and back in DCU.

Any other runs reach that kind of status? You know- it's a must read, a high point for comics.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I'd say Sandman definitely does, if we're talking Vertigo. Several Vertigo lovers like myself try to include Preacher in that category and are often shot down by other Vertigo lovers . But definitely Sandman.

I could bore you with my picks from the Silver Age, Bronze Age and 1980's, but I won't go there (yet ).
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
He did this with quite a lot of Vertigo titles at this point like Sandman (he wasn’t impressed though I strongly disagree with him) and Shade the Changing Man (which I do agree with—that one got way too off the wall).

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Originally posted by rouge:
Sandman may have been consistently excellent, but Shade was always my favourite. It was streaky though and I remember at the time noticing the quality dips seemed to co-incide with other Milligan projects coming out. When it was on, though, nothing could touch it. #50 is still one of my favourite books of all time.

Milligan just started on Hellblazer, BTW, and it looks promising so far.

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Okay, Lardy, maybe you can clarify something for me. Back in the day, I read a solicitation for the first Morrison/Millar issue of Swamp Thing, that said Chester the lovable hippie had turned into a right-wing cop. Did this actually happen, and were Morrison and Millar responsible?

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Another huge fan of the Vertigo Shade series. Lenny is one of my all time favorite comic book characters.

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Okay, Lardy, maybe you can clarify something for me. Back in the day, I read a solicitation for the first Morrison/Millar issue of Swamp Thing, that said Chester the lovable hippie had turned into a right-wing cop. Did this actually happen, and were Morrison and Millar responsible?

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Originally posted by LardLad:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
He did this with quite a lot of Vertigo titles at this point like Sandman (he wasn’t impressed though I strongly disagree with him) and Shade the Changing Man (which I do agree with—that one got way too off the wall).

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I'm a little hurt by that, actually! I loved Shade from beginning to end! Both Shade and Sandman Mystery Theatre are two of my very favorite Vertigo titles historically. Those two and House of Secrets were incredibly good and, sadly, among the titles that were cancelled by Vertigo. Shade, though, had pretty much played out when it came to an end, but SMT and House of Secrets had plenty of life left in them.

Honestly, Peter Milligan did some great work for Vertigo. I count among them Shade, Enigma and his run on Animal Man after Morrison left.

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You're not going to believe this, and in fact, our friendship may be over . I've never read (1) Sandman Mystery Theatre nor (2) House of Secrets (Vertigo version). I know, I know, forgive me! This has been on the 'must read' list for so long! Especially SMT because I love the Golden Age Sandman and so think he's work better in his original noir setting.

I need a patented Lardy brief recap / dressing down / enthusiastic post to get me started! I'm still trying to catch up on Scalped, Walking Dead, Madman & the Atomics (thanks Kent!) and pick up new things, but perhaps its time I started a new buying project?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
PS - I read Shade when I was about 18 years old. Perhaps my POV has changed? I can easily give the early issues a second chance as my Dad still has them...

PPS -

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Originally posted by LardLad:
While we're talking about some underrated runs, I'd like to bring up a couple I thought were pretty cool. How about Batman? Two runs that stick out to me that actually were published simultaneously were Chuck Dixon & Graham Nolan's run on Detective and Doug Moench & Kelley Jones' run on Batman.

During the period between Knight's End and Cataclysm, these titles were consistently satisfying in a way they've rarely been before or since. The stories were mostly standalone in that period except for Contagion, which I felt was done pretty well. Cataclysm and No Man's Land broke those runs, and I've never been as satisfied with those titles ever since. Those were some great comics!

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
You're not going to believe this, and in fact, our friendship may be over . I've never read (1) Sandman Mystery Theatre nor (2) House of Secrets (Vertigo version). I know, I know, forgive me! This has been on the 'must read' list for so long! Especially SMT because I love the Golden Age Sandman and so think he's work better in his original noir setting.

I need a patented Lardy brief recap / dressing down / enthusiastic post to get me started! I'm still trying to catch up on Scalped, Walking Dead, Madman & the Atomics (thanks Kent!) and pick up new things, but perhaps its time I started a new buying project?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - I read Shade when I was about 18 years old. Perhaps my POV has changed? I can easily give the early issues a second chance as my Dad still has them...

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Originally posted by rouge:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Okay, Lardy, maybe you can clarify something for me. Back in the day, I read a solicitation for the first Morrison/Millar issue of Swamp Thing, that said Chester the lovable hippie had turned into a right-wing cop. Did this actually happen, and were Morrison and Millar responsible?

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It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
Swamp Thing has a reputation. I haven't read it, but it's always one of those books people talk about- mostly I'm assuming for Moore's work on it. There's always someone asking to get it out of the Vertigo-verse and back in DCU.

Any other runs reach that kind of status? You know- it's a must read, a high point for comics.

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Originally posted by rogue:
It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).

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Originally posted by rouge:
I think parts of the "Hotel: Shade" era were some of the best in the series, but "On the Road" is equally good. That's not to say there weren't some issues of the "American Scream" that knocked my socks off. It was a lot more spotty after the Hotel, and despite some good individual issues you could feel the momentum dissipating (Maybe I just missed KAthy too much).

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
Shade's heyday was the Shade, Lenny and Kathy triumvirate era, especially with Bachalo art (Doran was good, too, epsecially the Hemmingway/Joyce 2-parter).

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I read a freiend's House of Secrets when it came out, and figured I'd wait for the TPB, if one ever came out. Only HOS I have is from one or more of the Vertigo compilation books (probably Winter's Edge #1, I'm guessing, where HOS was the framing story in which others were framed).

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I loved the concept of SMT, but Davis coming and going was a turn-off, as fill-in artists were not of caliber, as I recall.

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Aside from Dark Detective and the odd special/mini, I've found Batman pretty much unreadable since Miller/Mazzucchelli Year One.

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Originally posted by Stealth:

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Originally posted by rogue:
It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).

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I think a character like Chester was too good to be used as a sacrificial lamb just to make a satirical point.

And if Millar is even half the bastard I think he is behind that sh*t-eating grin, I'm sure he got a kick out of making Chester fans like myself squirm.

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Like rouge said, Stealth, it was a "What If?"-type story, not a reboot or retcon or anything. His Swamp Thing was waaaay before Millar grew his Big Fat Ego! This swears Lardy!

BTW, I picked up all three issues of the Diggle Thunderbolts (and the new issue of Mighty Avengers) up from my CBS today, largely because you've put your Stealth Stamp of Approval so profoundly on it--hope it lives up to your hype!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Stealth, I honestly think Millar seems like a pretty likeable guy but there are some annoying things about him. One, he obviously promotes his material in a way that can only be described as "Stan Lee meets PT Barnum". Calling Wanted "The Watchman of Supervillains" and saying his comics "are the most important comics of the year" are way over the top and ridiculous. But in a way, perhaps that works? I mean, people do pick his comics up. He also obviously has a way to manipulate the internet extremely well--playing on people's fears, curiousities, sense of outrage and willingness to check out things simply for the sake of understanding 'why there's such a controversy about Ultimate #6 on Newsarama'. So yes, I find all of those qualities annoying . But I think he's an asshole or a jerk or anything. I'm of the opinion that the internet deserves 95% of the beating it gets from DC and Marvel and their creators.

Millar obviously loves comic books and especially loves superheroes. And many of his comics, like Ultimate Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, were an obvious attempt to reaffirm that superheroes don't need to apologize for their corniness or 'kids toy' status. He just goes about it in the exact opposite way Grant Morrison does.

Another Millar trait is that he obviously will use sensationalism in his stories when it fits his agenda. But, so did Peter David in the 90's and so did a host of other writers--Millar just does it to the Nth degree. I'm not saying its right--I was furiously about Ultimate Hank Pym and Ultimate Cap for so long that I basically posted "I hate Mark Millar" a bunch of times about five or so years ago. But Millar was calculating there too--he made it the ultimate versions of those characters. And the after effect? Millar is more high profile than ever, benefitting hugely, and the Ultimate Avengers are basically on a major decline down the tube since Millar's exit.

There's also a problem that isn't directly Millar or Bendis' fault. Because those two writers are seen by Marvel execs as being so important, there seems to be a top-down approach at Marvel to reuse and dig into those two creators subplots, ideas and niches. So, in the case of Civil War, Millar never actually makes Reed Richards or Tony Stark look like facists or assholes. It simply was not by him. I've gone and researched/checked it specifically to see (as this was when I started to really take a second look at Millar). Most of that stuff came from other writers: JMS being a big one, but several more, and even Bendis himself. JMS has said that was mainly directed by editorial. Therefore, one can make this assumption: Mark Millar proposes an idea and Marvel editorial misunderstands it and creates a top-down directive to JMS to alter Reed and Tony in Spider-Man and FF own comics. Yet, Millar gets the blame. I really think that's unfair. Obviously, this could mean little to you and is way off your point, but I wanted to post it anyway

Soooooo...I'm hoping one day Millar writes a story you like and you give him a second chance. I eventually came around. I'm not saying I like 100% of his work, but some of it I think is beyond good and actually quite excellent. But, as always, I always respect and am fascinated by your opinions

Millar's most annoying quality, BTW, is his willingness to talk about how much money he makes in interviews. Whether true or not, it permeates the assumption that Millar is really only out there working for the money, sensationalizing his work to get higher sales and creating over the top indie projects for movie deals. I certainly hope that is not the case.

His best quality seems to be that he seems like a cool guy to have a pint with and discuss how much Galactus could kick Thanos' ass.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

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Originally posted by LardLad:
A huge black hole in my comics reading is and was the great indie comics of the '80s: Mage, Grendel, Elfquest, Jon Sable, Grimjack, Love and Rockets, American Flagg...you name a significant indie from that era, and I haven't read a lick of it. What can I say? I was a teenager and buying every Marvel and nearly every DC off the stands with every bit of allowance and lawn-mowing money I could scrape together! And I didn't have any cool comic-reading friends who could point me in the right direction.

In fact, to this day, I'm not a huge indie freak, but I'm more prone than ever to try out anything that has a good buzz following it. Honestly, I never would have tried Walking Dead, Umbrella Academy or lots of other indie-flavored books if not for buzz from posters here and some in-depth coverage from sites like CBR and Newsarama.

I really do wish I'd been in on the ground floor of some of those '80s indies though. Unfortunately, I doubt my CBS would have sold many of them to me before I was 18.

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I'm pretty much the same. Obviously I couldn't read in the early 80's, being 3 years old and stuff, but I'd like to catch up on some of these. I've read almost all of the DC and Marvel stories of that period. I believe my father has American Flagg! and some others, but for the most part I still need to find Mage, Love and Rockets and several others. I also have never read a Grendel story outside of the crossover with Batman and would love to immerse myself in that universe (like Hellboy and like I'm currently trying with Madman).

Speaking of Madman, I recently bought several of his earliest appearances via trades from a certain Legion Worlder who is renowned for his awesomeness and considered by me to be the poster whose opinion on the last three years of Legion most resemble my own. I can't wait to dig in! (Here's a hint--his moniker is that of the coolest new character in 5YL Legion, and I think he should be the next LMB leader).
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.

Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.

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You'll have to wait a coupla weeks for my response, though. I just got my In-Stock Trades order and will be occupied with those for a while. After that, I'm about two weeks or so behind in my comics reading. But I promise I'll letcha know what I think!

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Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.

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Like I said, if you get the inclination, track down his run on Swamp Thing (140-171). In my opinion its the best writing he's ever done by a mile! If you're leary of checking out a whole run, just try #152. If you don't like it, I'll refund ya what ya spent on it!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
And Cobester...just to clarify, I'd easily put the entirety of Shade and SMT among my Top Ten favorite comic book runs of all time! ( sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
I'll agree with Mage and Fables. Grendel should be noted, as we are in this rush to spotlight villains (Thunderbolts, Dark Avengeers, Secret Six.) As for the rest, I'm working on reading them- Starman and SMT are on the top of the list.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.

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Originally posted by LardLad:
And Cobester...just to clarify, I'd easily put the entirety of Shade and SMT among my Top Ten favorite comic book runs of all time! ( sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)

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Sold. (But it might take me awhile since I'm already doing a bunch of other reading projects ). But I'll give Shade another try and I'm really looking forward to checking out SMT. And Grendel. AND Mage...
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
PS - those Morrison/Millar issues on Flash were actually really good. I highly reccomend them. Particularly the 3 parter where he's racing those aliens for Earth's survival--its a classic Silver Age concept done really well in a modern style.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Sold. (But it might take me awhile since I'm already doing a bunch of other reading projects ). But I'll give Shade another try and I'm really looking forward to checking out SMT. And Grendel. AND Mage...

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I'll settle for you focussing on Scalped, Walking dead & Invincible for now....

(Don't worry, you know I'm doing my part by starting on Fables and Umbrella Academy--and probably House of Mystery and Agents of Atlas, soon! )
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 

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Originally posted by LardLad:
It did lose something after Kathy, er, left the title. My memory's really fuzzy, though, since I haven't read them in about a decade--but didn't Kathy...return...toward the end of the series?

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
His JLA story was the Amazo/Atom tale before Morrison's run ended. He and Morrison both filled in for Mark Waid on FLASH when Waid took a break, issues 131-138, soon to be in tpb.

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It was actually 130-141, 12 issues broken into 4, 3-issue mini arcs. They later said in an interview that they basically alternated writing arcs but left both names on the cover. They never admitted who wrote what, but it's not hard to tell.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Anyone interested in listing their Top 10 Favorite Runs in comics? I've been thinking about it since I told Des what I thought about Shade and Sandman Mystery Theatre. I'll have to give it some more really deep thought, though. As I sort them mentally, I'm surprised somewhat at what runs will make my cut and especially which ones apparently won't.

Two things that really come into play for me in my thought process are: 1) Runs that are still ongoing or haven't had enough years to percolate probably won't make the cut--only one recently-ended one might, and 2) Runs that I experienced mostly as trades, reprints or back issues will not likely make my cut as the "in the moment" connection means a lot to me.

Don't get me wrong...these aren't the rules I want you to follow, should you decide to participate, but those are shaping up to my personal guidelines.

And it looks like Vertigo will be pretty well represented on mine......
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
That would be really difficult for me too, as the entire basis of my comic book reading career is rooted in Silver Age Marvel Comics, and then also in the entire histories of specific characters (Spidey, Thor, Iron Man, Legion, Batman, etc.).

To me of course, difficult = fun, so I'll have to give it some more thought. I can think of at least one Vertigo run that would probably make my cut (Preacher).
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I think I've got my Top 7 figured out (if not their exact order), so it's a matter, now, of whittling the remaining three from over a dozen candidates!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Coming up with a top 10 is harder than I thought. In this day and age, where a run is 12-24 issues, does that really seem comparable to, say PAD's HULK run?
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
Walt Simonson's run on Thor is my first choice.

The Perez/Wolfman Teen Titans relauch would be up there, too.

Does the first couple years of the Elementals comic count as a 'run?'

The first few years of Exiles? Power Company? The first few years of Young Justice? The initial run of Thunderbolts, back when Jolt was a member?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
In my mind a 'run' must be more than 12 issues. Maybe 18 minimum? Or is that too long.

Certainly, Frank Miller on Daredevil the first time was a 'Run'. The Second time, even though I consider it one of the best superhero stories of all time, was just a story.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I'd say what is considered a "run" is up to the individual. Everything you've mentioned, Set, satisfies my personal criteria. But if someone thinks that highly of a 6-issue story arc or whatever, I don't begrudge him putting that on his list.Personally, everything I'm considering for my personal list meets the basic criteria of having at least the same writer for 20 or more issues. The shortest run I'm considering is exactly 24 issues. Most are significantly longer. But different people think of it different ways, and that should be a fun, intriguing part of the conversation!

For example, I'm leaving out of my list any run that's currently ongoing because, in my mind, I haven't been able to let it percolate and see how it stands up because it's unfinished and, well, needs some seasoning, I guess. Of the seven I've finalized, one ended about a year ago, but the other six are a minimum of about a decade old.

It should be fun to see what everyone comes up with!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
My Top Ten Runs:

1) Bob Harras & Steve Epting, The Avengers

2) Alan Grant & Barry Kitson & Mike McKone & Jim Fern, L.E.G.I.O.N. (until #28, Stealth's delivery.)

3) Walt Simonson, Thor

4) Fabian Nicieza & Mark Bagley, New Warriors

5) Peter David & Dale Keown & Gary Frank & Todd McFarlane & Jeff Purves & others, Hulk (until #426, the epilogue to Fall of the Pantheon)

6) Paul Levitz & Greg LaRocque & Steve Lightle, Legion of Super-Heroes v. 3 (until #45, the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story)

7) Alan Davis, Excalibur

8) Roger Stern & John Buscema, The Avengers

9) Stan Lee & Jack Kirby, Fantastic Four (from the introduction of the Inhumans, #43, through the introduction of Annihilus, Annual #6)

10) Peter David & Angel Medina & Steve Epting & others, Dreadstar (#41-64, cut short by cancellation)
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
That's a pretty good list, Stealth! My list and yours have a pair of runs in common.

Look for mine sometime tonight, if all goes well. I've got them figured out but want to post with commentary!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Cool! Thanks for the positive feedback, Lardy. I look forward to your list, especially to find out which runs we have in common. And if I can get myself to do it, I might add a supplementary post which elaborates on why I made those choices.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Your list reminds me, Stealth, of another concern I have with comics in general: as many trades as there are, there are still so, SO many great runs that have yet (and may never) been collected in a trade, hardcover, omnibus or Showcase editions. Most of the items on your list have almost zero chance of being collected for people to experience unless they want to go on a massive, potentially costly back issue trip. I've heard lots of good things about Harras and Epting's run, for example, but there is no convenient collections out there for me to enjoy it in a convenient format.

I hope DC, Marvel and various indies think about expanding their trade catalogues significantly. I'm sure there is plenty of money to be made!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Before I begin, I just want everyone to know that I haven't read everything ever published. This list is what I'm feeling right now and will likely evolve and change over time.

So here goes:

1) Paul Levitz's seminal run on Legion of Superheroes, particularly LSH Vol. 2 #286-Vol. 3 #50 (DC). What can I say? This is why I'm here on Legion World! So many story gems I'll always treasure, so much terrific character-building, some terrific art from Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle and Greg LaRocque.....it was the Golden Age of Legion stories and a run that will always be remembered in the comics lexicon. I'll always have these comics near me and available for reference or re-reading. Always.

2) Legion of Superheroes, Vol. 4 #1-61 (DC). Legion fans either love or hate these comics, and never the twain shall meet. I'm squarely on the "love" side and make no apologies. This was edgy, anything-can-happen storytelling the likes of which I haven't seen before or since. But what really always sold it for me was how Tom & Mary Bierbaum and Keith Giffen made me love Legionnaires like Rokk, Jo and Vi whom I'd never really felt anything about. And on top of that, they gave me new characters like Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Gand whom I still adore and sorely miss after all these years. (So many memories...I thought about cutting this run off at 39 or something, but hell, I'll even keep "Legion on the Run" in there. Even that had it's moments!) I don't think I've ever anticipated the next issue of any comic like I did during an all-too-brief foray "Five Years Later"......

3) Y: The Last Man (DC/Vertigo). The most recent of all the runs on my list. Brian K. Vaughn and Pia Guerra's masterpiece just resonates on so many levels....I mean, it was entertaining, first and foremost. But the characters were just so terrific and the plot points so well thought out. Honestly, Y wasn't what I'd expected at all when I saw the advanced solicitation. I figured, "this is gonna be filled with this 'last man's' sexual adventures." Truth is, Yorick really didn't have sex that much! The ideas, the uber-plot, all of it were just jaw-droppingly good--and exciting! And issue 59....that's gotta be one of the most devastatingly heartbreaking endings I've ever read, just one issue from the finale.

4) Sandman Mystery Theatre (DC/Vertigo). I've discussed this elsewhere on this thread, but suffice to say that Matt Wagner, Steve Seagal and Guy Davis put out a rich, nuanced, pulpy period crime book that made Wesley Dodds and Dian Belmont two characters I have the utmost fondness for. I think Ed Brubaker, Greg Rucka, Brian Bendis and others really owe this groundbreaking series a huge debt.

5) Shade, the Changing Man (DC/Vertigo). Along with Grell's Green Arrow series, this was one of the first two "adult" comics I ever got into. It was probably also the first not to have any real superhero trappings. Yeah, Shade kinda had a costume going on, but he never fought supervillains--he fought concepts like the American Scream and a serial killer inside his brain! Wild supernatural threats abounded, all from the depraved mind of Peter Milligan, a writer who I don't think gets enough credit in the shadows of Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman. Most of the series was drawn by Chris Bachalo in what makes everything he's drawn since seem like a pale shadow. But with all this going for it, Shade's secret weapon was always its intrepid trio of nuanced characters: Shade, Kathy and Lenny---all the madness wouldn't have been half as fun without them to bring it home.


6) James Robinson's Starman (DC). Who hasn't heard of this legendary run? The cool thing is, it is absolutely, positively deserving of all the hype! Featuring beautiful artwork from Tony Harris for much of its run, the adventures of Jack Knight in Opal City were unforgettable, especially because of the large and rich supporting cast that Robinson populated it with. We cared as much about what was going on with the O'Dares, the Shade, Solly, Ted, Mykall and all the rest as we did about Jack! Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

7) Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, #94-209 (Marvel). This was the run that probably made me a lifelong comics fan. A friend introduced me to this comic circa the 160's and plunged me headfirst into the world of back issues like never before! I became a Marvel Zombie overnight and was into all things X-Men for a long, looooong time. I collected the title(s) well beyond the issues cited, but this was the era it was the best---before the Mutant Massacre changed the lineup forever and ushered in the crossover as being the all-important element in the storytelling. The title picked up a bit for a while when Jim Lee came aboard, but once I eventually stopped buying X-Men, I've rarely ventured back for any significant amount of time. It's just never felt the same.

8) Preacher (DC/Vertigo). Yeah, I know...it was vulgar, depraved, twisted--alla that stuff. But Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon are one of the finest creative teams to ever have their pages stapled together. Period. And along with all of that series outrageous hallmarks, there were interesting characters to read about. Jesse, Tulip and Cassidy were an even more interesting trio than that of Shade. It was a fun, visceral read, and it had a beginning, middle and end that exceeded my expectations. Click Here For A SpoilerStill can't believe all three made it outta there alive, though! Sometimes, it seems Garth switched Hitman's and Preacher's endings!

9) Walt Simonson's Thor (Marvel). Sometimes I wish Marvel had just discontinued publishing Thor after Walt Simonson left--it was THAT good, and no one, I feel, has come close to reaching those heights since that run ended! Just epic, creative and, yes, MYTHIC storytelling. Walt is my Jack Kirby. I know Walt idolized Kirby and was inspired in his approach by Kirby, but I've never been attracted to Kirby's artwork like I am to Simonson's work on Thor! Just beautiful, mind-blowing stuff! I love it all: the beard, the armor, Thor-Frog, Beta Ray Bill and even Sal Buscema's art after Walt stopped doing the art chores. Brilliant, BRILLIANT comics!

10) Sleeper (DC/Wildstorm). One of the two very best writers working today (along with Geoff Johns), Ed Brubaker's masterpiece to me is the 24 issues split into 2 seasons that comprise the entirety of Sleeper. Artist Sean Philips really opened my eyes to a grittier, shadier, more realistic style of artwork that I'd never appreciated before. The saga of Holden, Miss Misery, Genocide, Tao, Lynch and all the rest captivated me beyond belief. This is the shortest run to make my list, but it's a body of work that is a towering achievement in comicdom. I think it really helped Brubaker find his voice in comics which directly lead to the success he's now enjoying at Marvel.

That's it! Whew! Tomorrow night, I'll add some thoughts and analysis on my picks and the ones that didn't make the cut. For now, though...I'm spent!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

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Originally posted by LardLad:

6) James Robinson's Starman Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Your list reminds me, Stealth, of another concern I have with comics in general: as many trades as there are, there are still so, SO many great runs that have yet (and may never) been collected in a trade, hardcover, omnibus or Showcase editions. Most of the items on your list have almost zero chance of being collected for people to experience unless they want to go on a massive, potentially costly back issue trip. I've heard lots of good things about Harras and Epting's run, for example, but there is no convenient collections out there for me to enjoy it in a convenient format.

I hope DC, Marvel and various indies think about expanding their trade catalogues significantly. I'm sure there is plenty of money to be made!

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I'm telling you, Lard Lad, that what this board needs is our own version of Dylan Horrocks' library from his Hicksville graphic novel. One of you old-timers could pick a central locale for it, designate a librarian (or the board could elect one) and then the rest of us poor deprived saps could pay some kind of minor fee to make pilgrimages there once a year;Or more, time permitting.

I'd love if we could have an ocean and a lighthouse, too;Just like in the original. But deep down I don't care if it's just off some highway in Indiana with nothing but abandoned strip malls and rusted autos. I'd still show up.


 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
Favorite runs:
1) ZOT! - McCloud
2) Legion of Super-Heroes - Levitz/Giffen
3) X-Men - Claremont/Byrne
4) Legion of Super-Heroes(5YL) - Giffen et al
5) Grendel - Wagner et al
6) Daredevil - Miller et al (both runs)
7) Green Lantern - Johns/Pachecho & Reis
8) Thor - Simonson
9) Alien Legion - Potts/Zelenetz and Stroman
10) Doom Patrol - Morrison/Chase
(Cerebus and Meonch/Seinkewicz on Moon Knight almost made it...)

GLC in the 31st century? I like having the GLC around durig the Legion's time, but just as another element to the mix, the way the Heroes of Lallor, the Subs or Dev-Em were in the Levitz run.

[ February 03, 2009, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: DrakeB3004 ]
 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
Since it's a roundtable how about a discussion on the revival of the GLC in the Legion's time?
I'd rather not have it keep derailing the Lo3W thread but it really does seem to be something the group wants to talk in about

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
1) Paul Levitz's seminal run on Legion of Superheroes, particularly LSH Vol. 2 #286-Vol. 3 #50 (DC). What can I say? This is why I'm here on Legion World! So many story gems I'll always treasure, so much terrific character-building, some terrific art from Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle and Greg LaRocque.....it was the Golden Age of Legion stories and a run that will always be remembered in the comics lexicon. I'll always have these comics near me and available for reference or re-reading. Always.

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
2) Legion of Superheroes, Vol. 4 #1-61 (DC). Legion fans either love or hate these comics, and never the twain shall meet. I'm squarely on the "love" side and make no apologies. This was edgy, anything-can-happen storytelling the likes of which I haven't seen before or since. But what really always sold it for me was how Tom & Mary Bierbaum and Keith Giffen made me love Legionnaires like Rokk, Jo and Vi whom I'd never really felt anything about. And on top of that, they gave me new characters like Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Gand whom I still adore and sorely miss after all these years. (So many memories...I thought about cutting this run off at 39 or something, but hell, I'll even keep "Legion on the Run" in there. Even that had it's moments!) I don't think I've ever anticipated the next issue of any comic like I did during an all-too-brief foray "Five Years Later"......

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
6) James Robinson's Starman (DC). Who hasn't heard of this legendary run? The cool thing is, it is absolutely, positively deserving of all the hype! Featuring beautiful artwork from Tony Harris for much of its run, the adventures of Jack Knight in Opal City were unforgettable, especially because of the large and rich supporting cast that Robinson populated it with. We cared as much about what was going on with the O'Dares, the Shade, Solly, Ted, Mykall and all the rest as we did about Jack! Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
7) Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, #94-209 (Marvel). This was the run that probably made me a lifelong comics fan. A friend introduced me to this comic circa the 160's and plunged me headfirst into the world of back issues like never before! I became a Marvel Zombie overnight and was into all things X-Men for a long, looooong time. I collected the title(s) well beyond the issues cited, but this was the era it was the best---before the Mutant Massacre changed the lineup forever and ushered in the crossover as being the all-important element in the storytelling. The title picked up a bit for a while when Jim Lee came aboard, but once I eventually stopped buying X-Men, I've rarely ventured back for any significant amount of time. It's just never felt the same.

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
9) Walt Simonson's Thor (Marvel). Sometimes I wish Marvel had just discontinued publishing Thor after Walt Simonson left--it was THAT good, and no one, I feel, has come close to reaching those heights since that run ended! Just epic, creative and, yes, MYTHIC storytelling. Walt is my Jack Kirby. I know Walt idolized Kirby and was inspired in his approach by Kirby, but I've never been attracted to Kirby's artwork like I am to Simonson's work on Thor! Just beautiful, mind-blowing stuff! I love it all: the beard, the armor, Thor-Frog, Beta Ray Bill and even Sal Buscema's art after Walt stopped doing the art chores. Brilliant, BRILLIANT comics!

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
7) Green Lantern - Johns/Pachecho & Reis

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Originally posted by Reboot:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
Since it's a roundtable how about a discussion on the revival of the GLC in the Legion's time?
I'd rather not have it keep derailing the Lo3W thread but it really does seem to be something the group wants to talk in about

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This is the NON-LEGION comics forum. Lard has a similar thread in the LSH forum (or you could start one yourself).

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:

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Originally posted by LardLad:

6) James Robinson's Starman Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

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I'll have lots of comments to add, but had to stop what I was doing to note this one. What a great way to put it Lardy! That's perhaps the best insight I've ever heard to how I felt about Robinson's Starman. What a damn good series!

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Thank you, thank you, thank you....donation tray is to your right.

Serously, thanks, Des. As i wrote my capsules, bits of inspiration came to me, and that was one of my better bits. Jack Knight was the definitive Gen-X hero. I can't really think of any other offhand who represented that particular archetype better or even in the same ballpark. All the issues with himself (with the addition of the superhero thing) were just spot-on. Yeah, it was all pretty angsty, but, well, so are Gen-Xers. It was fun seeing Jack find himself and to compare it with my own search to do so. Starman was a lot more than just that, but it was a very resonant aspect of the whole.

(*ahem* Des...donation tray? )
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I'll come back and fill my reasonings in a bit more later, hopefully:


10: Doug Monech's Spectre: I really have a soft spot for those early issues. It went to pot after the cast expanded, but I thought there was such great subtext and exploration of Corrigan/Spectre

9: From Hell: Still breathtaking in scope and vision.

8: John's JSA: It was a great, fun revival of a great team. This is what Superhero comics should be.

7: Batman and the Outsiders (1st series): I include just about everything up until bats left. I was surprised to find how much I liked these characters, not just Batman. Of course, I couldn't get the Baxter series where I lived, so this run ended too soon for me.

6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

5: Sandman - 'nuff said

4: Ostrander's Suicide Squad - I always had trouble waiting for the next issue, this series was like crack.

3: Levitz's LSH run from Annual# through the end of Tales. Words fail me.

2: Shade the Changing Man - already talked about in this thread.

1: Moore's Swamp Thing: Still THE seminal comic series in my mind. Just beautiful literature and completely transformative in my pre-teen and teenaged years.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Y'know, Sandman would probably be number 11 or 12 on my list--just on the outside looking in. Why didn't it make it? I guess it just came down to it just not feeling as personal to me than the ones that made it. Does that make any sense?

Let me try to explain. Sandman wasn't necessarily so much about Morpheus as it was about the people whose lives he touched or affected. Oh, there were definitely some beauts like Matthew, Hob Gadling (I'd buy a Gaiman-written series about him!), Nuala and countless others. But Morpheus himself wasn't all that interesting to me. I understand that that's how he was supposed to be as a being having no dreams of his own, and I know he wasn't completely without character development. But ultimately, it's the characters featured in a comic every month that make the biggest impression on me and endear me to the series, so that's what made Sandman fall a little short for me. Every comic I listed had main characters that connected with me in some way.

Again, Sandman is an outstanding body of work that I will always treasure. The stories are almost second to none. But I've learned that it's character that I connect to above all else, and those ten satisfied that need for me moreso.

[ February 05, 2009, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: LardLad ]
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by cleome:
I'm telling you, Lard Lad, that what this board needs is our own version of Dylan Horrocks' library from his Hicksville graphic novel. One of you old-timers could pick a central locale for it, designate a librarian (or the board could elect one) and then the rest of us poor deprived saps could pay some kind of minor fee to make pilgrimages there once a year;Or more, time permitting.

I'd love if we could have an ocean and a lighthouse, too;Just like in the original. But deep down I don't care if it's just off some highway in Indiana with nothing but abandoned strip malls and rusted autos. I'd still show up.

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Not familiar with Horrocks, but it sounds trippy, Clee! I vote for our resident librarian, Rockhopper Lad, to make it so!
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
Favorite runs:
1) ZOT! - McCloud

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Y'know, Drake, I've heard ZOT! mentioned a lot but have never had any idea what it was all about. Wanna save me a Wikipedia entry and gimme a capsule of ZOT!-ness?
 

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Posted by cleome on :
 
I dunno', Lardy. Even in prosperous times, could we really afford to pay Rockhopper what he's worth ? And what if the penguins don't want to relocate ?



Hicksville is a fictional town in New Zealand that's a sort of mecca for those who make comics and those who love them. A local guy named Kupe runs the lighthouse, fishes and maintains a library that has every never-published dream sequential project done by Kurtzman, Kirby, and even Picasso/Lorca ! Everyone in town loves comics and collects them, and at parties you'll find burly fishermen arguing over whether Herriman is cooler than Argones, etc. (In the way that at most parties, everyone is arguing about sports.)

Needless to say, I own both the original comics and the collection, and I adore them. I'm not really in a position to make up a Top Ten list, but all of the source comic for the novel: Pickle, would have to be part of it.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by Stealth:
What keeps me from nominating the entire Levitz run is Keith Giffen. It's well known at Legion World that I hate Keith Giffen. His artistic sensibilities, his sense of humor, his philosophy, everything about him is off-putting to me. The only Levitz/Giffen arcs I like are The Great Darkness Saga and The Legion of Super-Villains Saga; the former is lightning in a bottle, and the latter benefits immensely from Steve Lightle pencilling more than half the story over Giffen's breakdowns, and even then there's "Giffen-isms" that make me cringe, like the graphic intensity of the violence inflicted on Karate Kid, and the scene where one of the villains burns a servant girl to death. It's interesting that Lardy's cutoff point is the end of the Conspiracy arc. At one time, I would have felt the same, but IMO Conspiracy gets worse with each re-reading, and not just because Giffen drew the conclusion; however, I think if Greg LaRocque had drawn the entire arc, it might have risen above its flaws, the way that I believe the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story rose above its flaws thanks to LaRocque (and, credit where credit is due, some of the flashback-drawing guest artists, especially Grell, Swan, and Shaffenberger.)

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Rather than going on another anti-Giffen rant, I'll offer a constructive comparison: TMK is to Legion as Harras/Epting is to Avengers -- both dark and edgy re-imaginings of venerable superhero teams, both controversial, both weak sellers, and both with passionate defenders who have earned these runs cult followings. So I can see where Lardy's coming from, even though I hate TMK and love Harras/Epting.

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It's taken me a very long time to appreciate Starman. When it first came out, I was immediately put off by the slow pace, the stylized art, and the attitude of the lead character, who seemed to embody everything I hated about my own generation, so I stopped reading it almost immediately. Had I known that Jack would undergo such an evolution over the course of the series, I would have given it another chance. It truly is richly detailed, heart-felt, ground-breaking stuff. That said, I still have some problems with it, chiefly the way Robinson idealizes my grandparents' generation, but then, I was never close to any of my grandparents, so my viewpoint is a bit skewed.

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Claremont, IMO, really shined on the self-contained stories, the annuals, specials, and one-shots, but as the writer of an ongoing series he left a lot to be desired in terms of month-in-month out consistency. I should add that I came to the X-Men just as Claremont had one foot out the door, so I missed out on the "in-the-moment" thrills that might have made me more forgiving of his flaws. Lardy, have you read the apogee of the post-Claremont X-Men, The X-Cutioner's Song? Because I think that was brilliant, and should have been the start of a new age of glory for the X-Men, instead of the lightning in a bottle that it proved to be in the long run.

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I definitely read X-Cutioner's Song as I was still a regular X-patron at the time. It must not have made any kind of impression on me as I can recall no real details of it. Didn't it involve the Stryfe/Cable thing? It's possible I was too burned out on crossovers by that time that I didn't give it a fair chance. Care to share some thoughts about what made it so great for you?

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I agree heartily with almost everything Lardy says about Simonson's Thor, and although I like Kirby better than him, I think Simonson achieved the near-impossible feat of actually improving on the Lee/Kirby Thor! That may sound like sacrilege, but that's what I believe! And there's no question that Simonson's run has proven an impossible act to follow, much as I believe the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four may be an impossible act to follow (the one who came closest to equalling them of FF was IMO none other than Simonson.)

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I haven't read Lee/Kirby Thor, but I can't imagine I'd like it more than what Simonson did. I really miss Walt being an active creator...

(LOVED Simonson's FF, too, btw!)
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dedman:
1) ROM Spaceknight #1-52 - My favorite series of all time and this run is the vast majority of the series. After this point its "Total War" and ROM main enemy are eliminated. The series meandered along for another 2 years but without the Evil Dire Wraiths around it just wasn't the same

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3)Astro City: Family Album - I've really liked all the Astro City trades I've read, but this one really sticks out for me as to what it is like to be a hero and yet try to raise a family

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4)LSH (Levitz run) - Ok I'm going to qualify this by adding that its up to giffens return with his puffy lip and 200 pockets and pouchs style. That art style just didn't look good with this version of the legion. This run contains many of my favorite story arcs and is what made it my favorite comic (next to ROM).

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How can it be second-fave if it's number 4, pal?

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5) The Authority (Under New Management) - A superhero team that didn't give a rat's @$$ about what anyone thought as long as they got the job done...and KNEW they had the power to do it. Although many Authority stories have fallen flat for me, this one was firing on all cylinders, great story all around.

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6) Marshal Law (Fear and Loathing) - Its crass, vulgar, ultra violent and yet a hilarious take on superheroes. Even all these years later I'm not sure if it was meant to be a spoof of "serious" comics (though there are characters who are obvious send-ups).

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"Crass"? "Vulgar"? "Ultra-violent"? Sounds like fun!

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7) ok i only have 6 for the list.

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Aw!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
8: John's JSA: It was a great, fun revival of a great team. This is what Superhero comics should be.

7: Batman and the Outsiders (1st series): I include just about everything up until bats left. I was surprised to find how much I liked these characters, not just Batman. Of course, I couldn't get the Baxter series where I lived, so this run ended too soon for me.

6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

4: Ostrander's Suicide Squad - I always had trouble waiting for the next issue, this series was like crack.

1: Moore's Swamp Thing: Still THE seminal comic series in my mind. Just beautiful literature and completely transformative in my pre-teen and teenaged years.

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Harras's Avengers was dark? That's intriguing!

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Originally posted by LardLad:
True, there has been a lot of idealizing of "the greatest generation" in all media. I think Robinson mixed some counterpoint in there, though, with the Ragdoll atory and elsewhere. I think he humanized Ted Knight pretty well.

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Originally posted by LardLad:
I definitely read X-Cutioner's Song as I was still a regular X-patron at the time. It must not have made any kind of impression on me as I can recall no real details of it. Didn't it involve the Stryfe/Cable thing? It's possible I was too burned out on crossovers by that time that I didn't give it a fair chance. Care to share some thoughts about what made it so great for you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
10: Doug Monech's Spectre: I really have a soft spot for those early issues. It went to pot after the cast expanded, but I thought there was such great subtext and exploration of Corrigan/Spectre

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9: From Hell: Still breathtaking in scope and vision.

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8: John's JSA: It was a great, fun revival of a great team. This is what Superhero comics should be.

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7: Batman and the Outsiders (1st series): I include just about everything up until bats left. I was surprised to find how much I liked these characters, not just Batman. Of course, I couldn't get the Baxter series where I lived, so this run ended too soon for me.

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6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

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4: Ostrander's Suicide Squad - I always had trouble waiting for the next issue, this series was like crack.

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Wonderful, wonderful crack! *shlkurp*

I actually forgot about this one when compiling my possibles. Wouldn't have made my Top Ten anyway, but that series is definitely held in high regard for me. Boomerbutt, the Wall, etc. are all much missed in that great mix.

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1: Moore's Swamp Thing: Still THE seminal comic series in my mind. Just beautiful literature and completely transformative in my pre-teen and teenaged years.

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Zot! – like Lardy, I need to check it out—and also know nothing about it!

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It starts out, in the color run, as very much an old-school "quirky" superhero book in the tradition of C.C. Beck and the like. There are a lot of Euro and Manga influences as well, if you know where to look. But essentially he's a rip-snortin' kid superhero from an elegantly-drawn Utopia who battles Evil-- of various types.

Zot aka Zachary comes to our Earth through a dimensional portal, looking for a mysterious key that a bunch of bad guys are also after. He meets Jenny, a normal human girl, from our Earth. Sparks fly, hijinks ensue, Doug Adams-like jokes are made. There's a whole lot of other stuff in there, too: Ruminations on mortality and the nature of art and technology. Parental expectations of various kinds. The pull between the human urge to hope and the urge to give in to disillusionment.

When the book returned as a black-and-white, it morphed steadily into a different animal. There was still Zot, the superhero, his larger-than-life-villains, his pals and the girl who loved him. But the majority of the book took place on our Earth, amongst Jenny and her friends and family. The superhero and fantasy stuff was as much a "meta" (did people say "meta" then ?) theme as it was story. How visions of escapism affected the various characters became more important than the escapist plots themselves. Oh, and there's sex and romance, too. But nothing graphic or freaky.

Sometimes the art can look rushed, and some of the issues between Zot's Earth and Jenny's (our) Earth were never resolved. Doesn't matter. If you can own it, you oughta'.

Thanks. And remember to tip your servers.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I’m having trouble coming up with my top 10.

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Wussy! Everybody else is doin' it!

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For instance, I love Avengers runs by Harris/Epting (essentially my ‘welcome to the modern age of comics, Cobie’), by Roger Stern (arguably the best written in its history) and Steve Englehart (which just has an ‘oomph’ that might make it my fave), but I certainly can’t include all three in my top ten. Not when there are so many other great runs that stand so firmly in my mind. I’m having even more trouble with Spider-Man—Ditko and Romita Sr.’s runs must be on my list. But it’ll be hard not having Stern/Romita Jr. on there, which probably won’t make the cut.

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Starman – I do think an important thing Robinson did was a ‘duel’ revelatory commentary on the two generations he spent the most time on. Jack Knight begins as the typical member of Lardy/Stealth/my generation (even if I’m a little younger, it sure still felt like my generation), and as the series goes on, he evolves into a mature, heroic and good human being, albeit very unique, with different points of view and perspectives but still quite heroic in his own way. Ted Knight also begins slightly ‘flat’ in character, the typical Golden Age hero with an immensely iconic heroic status yet without as much real depth—and Robinson evolves him too throughout the series. But this isn’t in a bad way, and in fact, what Robinson does is quite brilliant, using what I like to call the ‘Tolstoy formula’. He takes the idea of the ‘Greatest Generation / Greatest Age of Heroes’ and strips it down to make it much more real and honest, to really show what it was all about, including the flaws, bad things, and real human elements. And through that, he is able to provide some very real and true glimpses into heroism, and even super-heroism. Lardy’s mentioning of Ragdoll is a good one (though I believe it happens in 1980?); particularly because its where Starman (Ted) asks for help from his peers rather than try to defeat Ragdoll himself. The iconic Golden Ager, whose status has developed quite unrealistically over the decades, would simply have rushed in there and beat the bad guy; here, Starman is much more human and realizes if he really wants to be a smart hero, he needs to realize he needs help. It was subtle and well done.

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Avengers – Lardy, you MUST check out the Bob Harras/Steve Epting run. I’ve had so much fun talking to Stealth about it these last few years, as it also holds such a place in my heart. It’s the first ‘modern’ comic I read off the stands, rather than read old back-issues of the Silver Age Marvel, which is what I basically did the first several years I read comics. I wrote Bob Harass a letter when I was like 12-13.

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Okay, okay already...go ahead and ship me the whole run at your own expense, and I promise to read it ASAP. And I'm sure I'll eventually send it back!

Truly, what I remember most about that run as a non-reader was that Harras was trying to "X-Men-ize" the Avengers. Was this a fair description at all? Knowing he was the X-Men editor, it made sense at the time. Plus, I thought, "editor's-turned-writers? Two words: Howard Mackie! " (This being before The Waid and The Tomasi)

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Thor – Simonsin’s run really was something, wasn’t it? I just reread most of it this past summer. When I was 16, I read the entire Thor run from his first appearance to his then most recent (the Deodato run). But still, I think the Kirby Thor run is probably the best ever on the comic, and probably Kirby’s best work outside of his Fantastic Four run. Actually, its not really fair to compare both—they are both excellent and Simonsin was doing the impossible: creating a run of equal quality to Kirby without rehashing his old plots (which Marvel basically did all the years in between, and which they have done all the years since to both creator’s runs).

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Again, not being a Silver Agey guy, I suspect I'd still prefer Simonson. The two items I mentioned above are the only two Silvers that were even in the conversation for me. Don't hate!

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Legion – I would also put the Conspiracy storyline as the last great Levitz run. I also dislike Magic Wars quite a lot.

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Gawd, how many "death by keyhole" rants have I been on as a MB poster, I wonder...
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Zot! sounded pretty good, Clee. You almost had me until....

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Originally posted by cleome:
Oh, and there's sex and romance, too. But nothing graphic or freaky.

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Buzz-Kill!

Seriously, it sounds pretty neat-o. Reading between the lines, you liked the original/color run better? It sounds more interesting when the two Earths were both prominent from what you say.

quote:

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Thanks. And remember to tip your servers.

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Hey! Getcher OWN spot!


 

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Posted by cleome on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Zot! sounded pretty good, Clee. You almost had me until....

quote:

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Originally posted by cleome:
Oh, and there's sex and romance, too. But nothing graphic or freaky.

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Buzz-Kill!

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quote:

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Seriously, it sounds pretty neat-o. Reading between the lines, you liked the original/color run better? It sounds more interesting when the two Earths were both prominent from what you say.

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quote:

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...Hey! Getcher OWN spot!

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Boy, I just can't please anyone this week, can I ?



 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I'm quite sure I'm forgetting something, but I wanna give it a shot nonetheless...

1) Sandman
2) Legion 5YL - probably the run I read most often
3) Legion Levitz - most of it anyway
4) Fables - thus far. Hope they will keep up the good work.
5) John Byrnes Next Men - really loved that one, still hoping for a sequel 15 years later
6) Watchmen - maybe even better than 6th rank, but it's been years that I read it...
7) Busiek/Perez on Avengers, perfect Superhero entertainment
8) The classic Squadron Supreme ##1-12 - excellent!
9) Crossgen: Sojourn - an unfortunately unfinished fantasy masterwork
10) X-Men: Age of Apocalypse - have to confess that I'm still very fond of it, even though the ending was not as good as the beginning

There are lots of other runs I really like, like Alan Moores Wildcats, Straczynskis Supreme Power or Rising Stars but all of those started out great, but went nowhere in the end. Same goes for many X-Men or Teen Titans storylines, many of them good, most of them followed by less good ones.

Lesser known mini-series like Perez' "Sachs & Violence", Waids "Empire" or the obscure "Captain Confederacy" deserve mentioning, but didn't make the cut
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
Ooh, I'd add the X-Men 2099 run to my list. Some great stories, with good art and some characters that are, to my mind, many times more interesting than any other X-team I've seen.

Until the entire world of 2099 was flooded as part of some ill-conceived mega-crossover, and all of the subsidiary titles cancelled, it was the best X-book out there.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:

ROM--kewlest book no one ever talks about? I've never read a page of it except, I think, the last issue which was a Secret Wars II crossover. Who wrote ROM? Was it one writer sticking with it thru that whole run? I remember hearing some whispers back in the day about it being good. Could you share a little more?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:

quote:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
Favorite runs:
1) ZOT! - McCloud

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Y'know, Drake, I've heard ZOT! mentioned a lot but have never had any idea what it was all about. Wanna save me a Wikipedia entry and gimme a capsule of ZOT!-ness?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Truly, what I remember most about that run as a non-reader was that Harras was trying to "X-Men-ize" the Avengers. Was this a fair description at all? Knowing he was the X-Men editor, it made sense at the time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Plus, I thought, "editor's-turned-writers? Two words: Howard Mackie! " (This being before The Waid and The Tomasi)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
[QB] It's an unfair description, and I speak as someone who was reading both Avengers and X-Men at the same time. Harras had already shown he had the writing chops (remember the wonderful Hercules fill-in issue during Simonson's run? Written by Harras; the deeply moving Jarvis fill-in issue during Stern's run? Written by Harras; the kick-ass Iron Man Annual where Erik Josten became Goliath? Written by Harras) that Liefeld/Lee/Portacio lacked. When Fabian Nicieza and Scott Lobdell took over the writing, they got off to a great start with The X-Cutioner's Song, but then the X-books declined precipitously; it was around this same time that Peter David and Alan Davis left X-Factor and Excalibur.

Avengers, on the other hand, just got better and better, with the most ambitious, ground-breaking storylines since the Englehart era, and with female characters who were far stronger and far more interesting than any of the angsty X-women.

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quote:

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Actually, it was at the same time as Waid was coming alive as a writer; and before either Harras or Waid, there was Ann Nocenti on Daredevil; the only reason her run didn't make the Top Ten was because it's bookended by a very mixed bag of art, but the stretch that John Romita, Jr drew was brilliant (and I'm normally not a Jr fan, but the chemistry with Nocenti was incredible.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
It was mostly written by Bill Mantlo and boasted a long run from original artist Sal Buscema. It was a comic (based on a toy) that originally captured the feel of 50's alien paranoia films. (imagine if Gort from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was the hero of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers") Rom was the greatest of the spaceknights (re:Green Lanterns, Lensmen) whose mission was to rid the galaxy of the evil shape-shifting Dire Wraiths. (he'd "banish" them to limbo with his neutralizer, but since they often wore human disguises, people thought Rom was just killing people. So really, it was all just a misunderstanding...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004:
To add what was written before, the first ten issues were color, 11 - 36 were b/w. The color issues to me were there to lay the groundwork and show how ideal and innocent Zot's world was compared to ours. (though it certainly had its share of tragedy) Despite the simplicity of the art style, it conveyed a lot of emotion, especially when dealing with Jenny and her friends.

The first ten color issues comprised one big story with a lot of action and fun ideas, punctuated with poignant moments. The b/w issues got more serious and took place mostly on earth with Zot coming to our world. Those issues still had a great sense of fun, but taken as a whole seemed to be a meditation on the struggle to remain hopeful rather than fall to despair.

And yes, there's some romance and sex, (though I would say sexuality rather than "sex") but it was always more heart-felt than prurient. There's a "coming out" issue later in the series that always gets to me when said character desperately asks Zot to know whether or not they would be accepted on Zot's perfect world. The series also boasted one of the most effective death scenes *ever*, a pie-in-the-face contest, a guy named Dekko with the Chrysler building for a head and the scariest villain to ever wear a straw hat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
I knew saying that that it would be an unfair description; I just wanted you to talk me through it a little. I can't remember if it was what I heard or what I assumed (or a combination). But casual glaces of Epting's art style at the time were evocative of the Lee/Silvestri styles used on the X-books.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
A name like "Deathcry" just reeks of Liefeld-style names.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
And certainly, using the Shi'ar in the Avengers was a novelty at the time. So hopefully, you can see how surface perceptions were altered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
It didn't help that it all came on the heels of a string of terrible runs by Simonson (definitely a let-down), Byrne and Hama that ran me off Avengers and made me reluctant to ever come back!

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Did Harras write Avengers thru Onslaught?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
[QB]That style was running rampant through the whole industry at the time. Some artists adapted better than others. I think Epting managed to incorporate the dynamics while keeping his own style; same with Barry Kitson during his later issues of L.E.G.I.O.N.

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quote:

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I run hot and cold with Deathcry. She was definitely "Exhibit A", so to speak. But then I always remember with great amusement how Busiek would say how she was his least favorite Avengers because she was a bunch of X-Men cliches. As if Silverclaw wasn't a bunch of X-Men cliches? Pot, kettle, black! Even if it was unconscious on Busiek's part.

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Yeah, and it's not as if Kurt created any new Avengers who've really stood the test, right? Triathlon?

I did enjoy Kurt Busiek's run a lot more than you did, though, Stealth...especially up until Perez left. The whole Kang thing that took place afterward was definitely a bloated clusterfuck, but I loved Kurt with Perez. Yeah, it was a total nostalgia-fest that didn't really advance the Avengers, but after all that Heroes reborn crap, I felt a nostalgia-fest was actually what was needed. And, GOD, I love me some George Perez!!!

quote:

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Well, sure, but I think it's a sad commentary on how narrow-minded fan perceptions had become since the days of the Kree-Skrull War, which was loaded with characters and concepts which had been introduced in the Fantastic Four. No one ever complained about that, but when the Shi'ar apppeared in the Avengers, they complained. Why should the X-creators be the only ones to play with those cool Dave Cockrum-designed toys?

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quote:

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Well, here's another analogy: Harras was to Avengers as Geoff Johns was to Green Lantern.

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quote:

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Shortly after Epting left, he began co-plotting with Terry Kavanagh. By the time of The Crossing they were co-writers. After that, Harras left altogether (he'd become EiC), then Ben Raab wrote a few issues, then Mark Waid wrote # 400 and the Onslaught tie-ins (not Waid's finest hour.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I’m having trouble coming up with my top 10. For instance, I love Avengers runs by Harris/Epting (essentially my ‘welcome to the modern age of comics, Cobie’), by Roger Stern (arguably the best written in its history) and Steve Englehart (which just has an ‘oomph’ that might make it my fave), but I certainly can’t include all three in my top ten. Not when there are so many other great runs that stand so firmly in my mind. I’m having even more trouble with Spider-Man—Ditko and Romita Sr.’s runs must be on my list. But it’ll be hard not having Stern/Romita Jr. on there, which probably won’t make the cut.

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So...has the Cobester decided he just can't narrow it down?
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:

quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
[qb]
[QUOTE]6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

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I'd never choose one just for the art, but as I recall, there were some pretty great stories interspersed in there. As a kid, I loved B&B and DC Comics Presents and how they gave me the opportunity to meet lots and lots of characters, month in and month out. And of course, these titles embodied the art of the done-in-one story that was the norm back then.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Alan Grant & Barry Kitson & Mike McKone & Jim Fern, L.E.G.I.O.N. (until #28, Stealth's delivery.)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Fabian Nicieza & Mark Bagley, New Warriors

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Peter David & Angel Medina & Steve Epting & others, Dreadstar (#41-64, cut short by cancellation)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
Hawkworld: Truman, Ostrander, and Nolan – A personal favorite that probably won’t make many fans or critics lists. A civics lesson mixed in with some kick ass science fiction in each issue. Dirty laundry, scandal, mature content, flawed characters, social injustice, and a search for meaning. It never all came together but the books always felt important to me. These guys were trying to say something and I applaud the effort.

---

Count me as someone who enjoyed Hawkworld quite a bit, as well! I've always been drawn to Hawkman, but this was the only time the material really delivered on the promise I was looking for. Yeah, the whole scenario mucked up Hawkman continuity in the DCU for quite a while, but I really felt this was a terrific read for it's entire run. Graham Nolan was a terrific choice to continue the visual approach Tim Truman used on the original miniseries, and Truman and Ostrander (later just Ostrander) delivered a consistently compelling read. Sadly, the book really lost something when Hawkworld ended and was relaunched as Hawkman even though Ostrander continued as writer for a while and Jan Duursema came aboard as an excellent artistic successor. I think the problem was with the relaunch DC made Ostrander dumb down the scope of the series in order to attract more readers. It didn't work.

This was another feather in Ostrander's late '80s/'90s DCU cap as he really put together a string of classic DC books: the latter part of Firestorm, Suicide Squad, Hawkworld, The Spectre and Martian Manhunter. The three in the middle, especially, were among the best runs I've read in my decades as a fan of comics. I actually wish DC would collect these in Omnibus format similarly to what they're doing with Starman and some other great runs.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
I've never been a fan of the hawk-people, but I loved the Tim Truman/Enrique Alcatena Hawkworld mini-series that predated and set up the monthly. Reportedly, Truman wanted the ongoing to be set during the Golden Age; IMO it would have been better that way (not that I think it was a bad book, I just never got into it the way I got into some of the other books that Truman and Ostrander have worked on.) Other than the Hawkworld mini, I liked Kendra as a member of the JSA ensemble, and...that's about it. (Oh, and I loved the Rann-Thanagar War, but that's because it had Adam Strange, Vril Dox, Captain Comet, Kyle Rayner, and the Omega Men to compensate for the boring hawk-people -- Shiera's (sp?) death bothered a lot of people, but I shrugged it off.)
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I like the current version of Hawkman alright, but fans of Hawkworld have not been served very well since the series based on Truman's vision ended.

IMO, the character of Shayera Thal/Hawkwoman who began with Hawkworld is far and away the superior version of the character. Kendra Saunders has always seemed much more two-dimensional by comparison. Why she was created and elevated while Shayera was put in the background (and eventually killed) is beyond me.

And obviously, the persona of Katar Hol which supposedly exists within the current Hawkman has all but disappeared with only a stray reference. This is clearly more of a Silver Age Hawkman but presented as the Golden Age version, minus an overt Thanagarian connection and plus a whole past-lives thing.

Frankly, I'm surprised DC hasn't just gone and ret-conned Hawkworld out with one of the Crises like they have a few other inconvenient continuity elements.

Like I said earlier, though, the current Hawkman works really well in the milieu of the JSA. And while the armored version of the costume with the stiff wings was cool for a while, I ultimately prefer the classic, stripped down version with the big ol' hairy chest and how it emphasizes kind of a gladiator-like nature to the character.

Sure miss Shayera Thal, though. She'd never give a creep like Roy Harper the time of day!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Shayera was a bit too...I don't know, "Claremont-ish" for me -- the grim, hardened warrior woman.

Kendra at least showed moments of vulnerability. At her best (in the pages of JSA, rather than Hawkman, which is rather telling) she reminded me of the way I was at her age: anger vying with sadness for domination. I even had the same hairstyle at the time (although it looks MUCH better on her than it did on me -- I grew it out and have kept it long and will keep it long til the day I die.)

Re: Kendra and Roy Harper, I simply tell myself that the Kendra in JLA is an impostor.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth:
Shayera was a bit too...I don't know, "Claremont-ish" for me -- the grim, hardened warrior woman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth:
And I don't entirely disagree that the angst and suffering has been laid on a bit too thick with Kendra, but that's the fault of being at the mercy of multiple writers with conflicting approaches. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much David Goyer had to do with how Kendra shined in JSA, or for that matter, the overall quality of JSA.

---

It's hard to say. Kendra seemed like she was more front-and-center in JSA when Goyer was co-writing. However, if she was, I'm pretty sure the elements I listed above were pretty big parts of those Goyer-influenced issues.

Was JSA better with Goyer? That's an interesting thought. I don't have a list of his issues onhand, but if I'm remembering correctly, it may have peaked (by my standards) while he was still co-writing. As I stated earlier in this thread, JSA peaked for me around Black Reign and the JSA/JSA arc. IIRC, Goyer was not around for either of those stories. While it's been pretty good since then, none of the successive stories have done it as much for me as those. Possibly, it would indicate Geoff's juices weren't flowing as well, for very long at least, after Goyer left. (assuming my view of JSA's quality matches other people's perceptions )
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Goyer left JSA just before the end of Princes of Darkness, which I (and I know I'm not the only one) consider a rather insubstantial arc, especially consdering the way it had been building since the very beginning on the series. Could Goyer have had something better in mind than what saw print? For that matter, what might James Robinson have wrought in partnership with Goyer if only Robinson hadn't burned out right after JSA started?

My perception of JSA, from multiple reads, is that it had most of its best moments before Princes of Darkness. I loved Black Reign the first time I read it, but re-reads have revealed, IMO, a lack of substance, something that I think recurs in a lot of Geoff Johns' solo work -- it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That said, I do think JSA was never less than readable until Identity/Infinite Crises reared their ugly heads.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Jerry, Ceej--it's good to see there are other fans of the Hawkworld version of Shayera!

Also, while doing these last few posts, I did some Wikipedia searching, and apparently Hawkman and Hawkgirl died during Final Crisis? Did I miss something?!?!? Also, apparently Carter had some doubt cast on him somewhere (Demiurge during Rann-Thanagar War) that Katar is the real Hawkman and Carter is not?!?!? Color me confused!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
In the final issue of Final Crisis, the Hawks and the Super Young Team all faded out of existence when the Checkmate alternate Earth evac plan collapsed.

During the Holy War mini that ran this past summer, it was suggested that the Carter we've been reading is really Katar. It was poorly done, came out of now where, and is likely the basis for the recent scrubbing of Hawks from the DCU.

The best part Lardy, when I was at SDCC, someone asked Didio about that while he was hosting a panel with Johns. Geoff blurted out "Yeah, what's up with that?"
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
I should make it clear that the only Rann-Thanagar War story I love is the original mini-series written by Dave Gibbons and drawn by Ivan Reis. Everything related that followed is atrocious IMO.

Oh, and as for Kendra being a bit much even when Goyer was writing her, I guess we'll just have to politely disagree on that point.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth:
Oh, and as for Kendra being a bit much even when Goyer was writing her, I guess we'll just have to politely disagree on that point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
In the final issue of Final Crisis, the Hawks and the Super Young Team all faded out of existence when the Checkmate alternate Earth evac plan collapsed.

During the Holy War mini that ran this past summer, it was suggested that the Carter we've been reading is really Katar. It was poorly done, came out of now where, and is likely the basis for the recent scrubbing of Hawks from the DCU.

---

I haven't read last week's JSA yet and don't pick up JLA at all--has their passing been addressed at all in this month's titles?

(Funny, I read FC #7 and didn't get that the Hawks were gone--chalk it up to the unclear mess FC was, I guess. )
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
I think most folks, myself included, enjoyed Shay as much if not more than Katar. When they brought Carter back, they could have paired him with Shay. That would have been a great mix of both couples.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LardLad:
I should clarify a bit that I'm not necessarily a Kendra hater, really. I just prefer Shayera in that role and feel Kendra was really unnecessary with the other character still around, especially as she was a favorite of mine. I guess they created Kendra because she was a lot different in her nature than Hawkman would be as they eventually reintroduced him. If it was Shayera, the two really would've been more alike than different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
I think most folks, myself included, enjoyed Shay as much if not more than Katar. When they brought Carter back, they could have paired him with Shay. That would have been a great mix of both couples.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Thank you for clarifying that. And I apologize if my last post seemed a bit curt. I didn't mean it that way. It's so hard to get across a clear "tone of voice" on a message board.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
Didio said the DCU catches up to FC in March. So sometime this month, they will be missing.

It wasn't the most obvious, seeing as how Supes wished for a happy ending. But apparently they are gone, and Mr Terrific is on another Earth.

---

The same Wikipedia stuff I read quoted Johns as saying the Hawks will still be alive at the beginning of Blackest Night. What that mean, I have no clue. But killing the Hawks is not what I want at all. I'd rather they continue with Carter and Kendra than kill them off & make them Black Lanterns or do another effin' ret-con on them!!!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
It just occured to me -- Peter David would write a great Kendra, especially given how his take on Siryn has more than a little in common with Kendra. Damn that Marvel-exclusive contract. And damn DiDio for making PAD feel unwelcome at DC.
 

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Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
 
I really liked the Hawkman series a few years ago. I loved that the Golden Age version of a fairly major character was considered the version in the DCU. Unfortunately, it really tanked after Johns left it.

I also liked how the Hawks and Dr. Fate were handled at the same time in JSA. There was always the tension of "In another life, we were a family". The relationship between Hector and Kendra, who were cousins biologically, but really mother and son, really should have been explored more fully. Hector Hall is one of my favorite characters and I always felt his death toward the end of the JSA run was one of the most pointless deaths in all of comics. They essentially killed him off to make way for a "new" version of Dr. Fate and when was the last time we saw him? And this was right after he and Lyta were reunited and seemed to be happy, for once.

Oh well. It's not the first time Hector has been killed. Actually, I think it's the third.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stealth:
It just occured to me -- Peter David would write a great Kendra, especially given how his take on Siryn has more than a little in common with Kendra. Damn that Marvel-exclusive contract. And damn DiDio for making PAD feel unwelcome at DC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad:
I also liked how the Hawks and Dr. Fate were handled at the same time in JSA. There was always the tension of "In another life, we were a family". The relationship between Hector and Kendra, who were cousins biologically, but really mother and son, really should have been explored more fully. Hector Hall is one of my favorite characters and I always felt his death toward the end of the JSA run was one of the most pointless deaths in all of comics. They essentially killed him off to make way for a "new" version of Dr. Fate and when was the last time we saw him? And this was right after he and Lyta were reunited and seemed to be happy, for once.

Oh well. It's not the first time Hector has been killed. Actually, I think it's the third.

---

I like Hector as Fate as well, Rocky, even though I was never a reader of Infinity Inc. It seemed like a great fit. Maybe this is all a part of a grand plan to reboot Hawkman again somehow by tying up all his loose ends. Or maybe not, since Hector as Silver Scarab is part of Justice Society Infinity.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad:
I really liked the Hawkman series a few years ago. I loved that the Golden Age version of a fairly major character was considered the version in the DCU. Unfortunately, it really tanked after Johns left it.

I also liked how the Hawks and Dr. Fate were handled at the same time in JSA. There was always the tension of "In another life, we were a family". The relationship between Hector and Kendra, who were cousins biologically, but really mother and son, really should have been explored more fully. Hector Hall is one of my favorite characters and I always felt his death toward the end of the JSA run was one of the most pointless deaths in all of comics. They essentially killed him off to make way for a "new" version of Dr. Fate and when was the last time we saw him? And this was right after he and Lyta were reunited and seemed to be happy, for once.

Oh well. It's not the first time Hector has been killed. Actually, I think it's the third.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
(sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).

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Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)
 

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Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
 
I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say. Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I expect another retcon soon though. The JSA are simply getting too far removed from the current generation to maintain the "Sons and Daughters" aspect of the current heroes, even with the Krakul explanation.
 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad:
I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say.

---

I think that's a combination of "no-one liked the original retcon" (that turned BC into her own daughter), JLA wasn't selling very much at the time of the original retcon, and it was done in Secret Origins, IIRC, which wasn't a particularly high-profile series itself. I suspect a lot of people were fooled into thinking that the BC in the JLA had always been a separate character to the JSA BC; and that those who knew otherwise didn't notice ANY of the retcons.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!

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...for about five minutes [Although she appeared beside her daughter in past-set series like JLA:Y1 and JLA Incarnations. Wasn't it James Robinson who tried to retcon her name to "Diana", to distinguish her from the younger "Dinah", or was that just the same sort of carelessness that led to him writing a whole Times Past issue involving "Allen Scott"?]

Incidentally, didn't someone involved say that, if the retcon had been cemented-in in time, she would have been sent into Limbo with most of the JSA shortly after the Crisis?

[ March 03, 2009, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.

I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.

I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.

But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
After years of discussing it and thinking about it (usually on LW), I think right now I'd be fully in support of something to further distance the Golden Age/JSA (still firmly planted in WWII) from modern times.

I thought the Justice Experience was a great step in that direction. I also thought the idea that certain individuals stayed within their own eras too worked well:
Challengers of the Unknown - 1957-1968 (then travel forward in time)
Blackhawks - 1940 - all the way up through the 1960's
Congo Bill - 1943-1950's, becomes Congorilla in 1959, essentially immortal thereafter.

Meanwhile, certain Golden Agers, like Plastic Man, are naturally immortal.

Now that would be a cool weekly series. Explaining the history of the DCU while applying a 'moving timeline' to the modern era with only the vaguest connections but still keeping a relevant 'passing of the torch'. Yet with a good story not mired in useless minutiae of continuity
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
The JSAers are the parents of the Infinity generation. Most of them were men. And they had their aging slowed. That I get.

But the wives of the JSAers, the mothers of the Infinitors, must have been in their 40's & 50's to give birth to children younger than me. Ugh!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.


1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.

2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.

3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.

4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.


You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I'm pretty sure the fandom hounds would be unleashed if a middle generation were ret-conned in. The Justice Experience was a good idea, but they weren't related to anyone. I'd have to say I'd be against this retcon because DC is already drowning in a 50-ft deep retcon pool with like only one arm floatie keeping it above water!

Yeah, I often get those wtf moments when I realize the JSAers kids are pretty much all younger than ME!!! As I see it there are two non-"lost generation" solutions:

1) Portray the JSA's kids as being in their early '40s or so.

or

2) Show a lost "casebook" story (a softer ret-con) which shows how at some point a magic spell or something was put on the classic JSAers that caused both them AND any children they would have to age at a slower rate than the rest of humanity. They aren't immortal or anything, but perhaps their expected lifespan would be maybe 50 years longer than everyone else.

Neither is a perfect solution, but I think they're less intrusive solutions than ret-conning in another generation of characters.

[ March 03, 2009, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: LardLad ]
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I thought about this long and hard over the Summer, when I was planning my excel spreadsheet multi-tab document “How to Fix the DC Universe?”, which was when I was at my angriest towards the company. Yes, I really did this Then I started to have fun with it and was wondering how to kind of explain away some of this stuff without making it too messy. Honestly, I don’t think that can be done. But what I was considering:

Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects

Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)

1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.

Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues

Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War

Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.

1968 – since this is essentially the end of the Silver Age, a story would be inserted in which the JSA, their children, and specific characters are sent forward in time. Coming in place would be the Justice Experience, the 1970’s Starman, and any other characters that might be applicable specifically to the 1970’s / Bronze Age.

This leaves open the 80’s & 90’s as potential “open eras” for retconned heroes.

We then flash-forward to the ‘moving timeline’, which cannot ever be given specific dates to be tied down to. What we know is:

25 years ago – Superboy

Also during this time the Justice Society appear forward through time. A great story could then explain how they resume their identities, sometime in their 50’s, with their children still toddlers. (thus, in the current time, it explains their ages). I see King Faraday as this immortal super-spy, active since the 1950’s, so maybe he, Plastic Man and a few others still alive from the 1950’s, help get them situated with identities and stuff on the ground they are not superheroes. So they are in retirement essentially again.

12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world

10 years ago – Flash II, Green Lantern II – basically all the characters of the Silver Age now firmly planted within the moving timeline

9 years ago to today – the basic history of the DCU within a 9 year period (or even less, no need to make it a full 9 years). Of course, as the decades expand, cramming all those adventures into this small period presents its own problems, but the readership appears unwilling to move on.

To explain all of this, and why the JSA is moved forward in time presents a few other opportunities: to explain the history of Superboy (Superman when he was a boy), to even show the Challengers of the Unknown in their era (like CJ mentions), and other things. To give a basic timeline, and even showcase some DCUers who have been active since the 1940’s, like Plastic Man.

You could also then have Booster Gold’s comic tie-in, having him visit various time periods and see things in a disjointed way (which is complicated and could be fun).

You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.

You could have a few Legionnaires appearing to create a connection there. Perhaps some moving backwards through time? (That’s always a cool thing). Like Dawnstar, Shady and Wildfire, or whoever.

So you’d have lots of characters scattered throughout time, some meeting at different points, working against a common enemy (Vandal Savage is good but he’s been done to death), so there is a real storyline here. But in the background of this epic storyline the JSA / generational problem is fixed, Superboy is firmly established and characters truly specific to a particularly era are allocated to that era. End it all with a ‘history of the DCU’ index, make it like 80’s pages, charge a crazy $6.99 price since you know people will buy it and essentially make it the new DC bible.

They key would be it needs to be done as a great story first and foremost, and the focus should not be specifically on continuity. Just like Lost uses complex plot-devices, this could easily be done.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
This could work, while making for an interesting weekly or maxi-series. One element that should probably need to happen is to establish that as the era of Superman, etc. starts, the JSA are either inactive, retired or missing for some time. There's always been a gap of time between the JSA's era and the JLA's as a way to make the current generation of heroes not seem less special. So if DC were to go with this approach, I'd suggest having the JSA reappear in their time jump a couple of years into the current heroic era. Maybe their kids were more like pre-teens or in their early teens when they reappeared instead of toddlers?
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Kent, that's a fairly small sampling of JSA reading to make that judgement, I think, but I can respect that. I'm guessing that maybe part of your problem with JSA is it's NOT the classic lineup. Most original JSAers are dead. Do you think that played into it at all for you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reboot:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
(sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).

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Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)

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quote:

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Originally posted by stephbarton:
You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.

I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.

I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.

But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I thought about this long and hard over the Summer...

Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects

Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)

1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.

Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues

Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War

Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.

...

12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world

...

You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.

...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
[QUOTE]

I'd rather see a vaguely "Groundhog Day" scenario where just a few of the heroes realize they and even their supporting casts are not aging, even though decades have been going by. They may craft theories and guesses, but never really know for sure (too much is over-explained in comics already).

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quote:

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Originally posted by LardLad:
Steph, I would argue that the removal of Superboy LEAD to the constant ret-conning, but I think our discussion of the JSA has lead to a larger issue in comics: how should aging and the passage of time be addressed in serialized comics?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
My solution: have two lines of comics. In one of them, the issue of time and aging is neither addressed nor acknowledged. The characters are evergreen. In the other, characters age in real time, they hand down their legacies to junior characters (sometimes) and when they die they stay dead. Obviously, these two would diverge fairly quickly, but that's okay.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
I agree largely with TK. Restart continuity every twenty to twenty-five years for the major characters. Relegate the old continuity to an "alternate earth" or something, where stories can still be told in it. That way you can still have some titles set in the old continuity after the transition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:

I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?

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quote:

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...Do we really need to know, for example, why some Klingons have head ridges and others don't?...

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Make sh#t up !!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Actually, I don't need to know if it's just filler, but if it adds anything to the story at hand, then go for it.

While it's a hard pill for fans to swallow at times, when the next creative team comes on board, they have a right to ignore the last team's ridge-theory, or even substitute their own that's completely at odds with that of the last team. If they do this in service of a story that would have suffered without it, great.

Artists seem to get much more leeway on this front than do writers, which isn't really fair when you think about it.


 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Klingon ridges aside: I recently caught part of the Enterprise episode which retconned an explanation for the human-looking Klingons. Fair enough, but the worst part of the episode was the ending, wherein one of the characters says that even their descendents will have the same disease that erased the ridges. These descendents, of course, are the ones we saw in the original ST series.

Thanks, ST people, for pointing that out, 'cause, y'no, we're two stoopid to figger it out.
 

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Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cleome:

Artists seem to get much more leeway on this front than do writers, which isn't really fair when you think about it.

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I don't give artists that kind of leeway, either. There should be rules that say "This species looks like this." Without that, all I can ever assume I'm seeing is an interpretation of the fictional world's reality, and can never fully engage with it. I want to believe I'm seeing its reality directly.

This is the same reason I hate flex-time. It prevents full engagement because older stories, to be accepted in continuity, can't be as they appear in the actual comics (that is, they took place in a more recent year than shown).

And beyond that, it's the reason I hate retcons in general. It's why I want a universe that takes a more literal and less conceptual approach, if you get what I mean.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Honestly, I'd say the whole problem with the passage of time is a bigger one for DC than it is for Marvel. Yeah, you occasionally have to scratch your head trying to figure out how old Peter Parker is and how long he's been Spidey, but it seems Marvel doesn't have as much generational diversity as DC. DC is absolutely littered with proteges, kid sidekicks and what-not while Marvel is not so much. I mean, you have your occasional New Warriors, New Mutants, Runaways, Power Pack and Young Avengers, but very few of them have close ties with Marvel's icons in a way that might age those icons by association. It's not totally absent, of course, but not as prominent.

I suppose part of this is because the Marvel Universe as we know it is about 20 years younger than the DCU in terms of continuous publication. And oddly enough, it seems that Marvel's younger heroes have a harder time catching on than DC's. Hardly any teen characters introduced at Marvel in the decades since Spidey debuted have really stayed prominent very long. Yes, you have the New Mutants characters still around in various X-comics but no one really graduating to headlining their own solo title. Certainly Marvel hasn't had anything comparable to DC's long-lasting Robin title. So that lack of teen characters with real staying power and headlining potential has kept Marvel from having to really worry about addressing generational concerns.

On the flipside of the age scale, Marvel's had only a handful of their Golden Age characters still around. Cap was solved by being frozen for decades and Namor is extra long-lived as an Atlantean. Bucky was presumed dead but was revealed to be kept in and out of suspended animation over the decades as the Winter Soldier. And the original Torch was an android. And there are really very few others for Marvel to worry about.

So in a way DC has been a bit more daring by developing younger characters and exploring the older generations but has gotten themselves into this mess as a consequence. We love those old coot JSAers. We love seeing our Robins, Speedys and Kid Flash's grow up and getting out of their mentors' shadows. And we love seeing who's gonna take their places as teen sidekicks and adventurers in turn. It's really a big part of DC's charm, I think.

The only solution, it seems, is to go ahead and continue to let these characters age, albeit not quite at the rate we are. Why the hell not?!? After all, it's a known fact that the average age of the current comic reader is climbing higher and higher. Who's to say in that context that we wouldn't appreciate seeing Superman and Lois Lane start to raise a family or watching Bruce wayne retire (or semi-retire) and let one of his proteges take over or let Barry Allen stay dead while Wally continues to carry on his legacy proudly?

I think the huge fly in the ointment here is the current boom in superhero movies. These are the biggest blockbusters of the day, and the studios are looking for icons to bring to the screen. The comics companies have their hands tied as to go too much against the visions on the silver screen would confuse any consumers who might possibly be bitten by the bug to try out their comics. This is despite the fact that this has not happened much historically. Watchmen aside, there's been very little evidence of more than a brief spike (and sometimes not even that) to sales of a comic starring the hero featured on the big screen. But I guess the reciprocal is that the comic companies fear that if their character isn't definitive or iconic enough, then the studios will pass over the opportunity to make a movie out of it.

So, I dunno, we may have to wait until the current movie boom passes to see some solution to the aging problem. Let's hope the comics will still even be around when that happens!
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Dan Didio and I agree that the original Titans growing up have cause that aging issue we have today. Prior to that, even with the JSA tied to WWII, there were ways to circumvent the passage of time.

But now that all the Titans have had kids (swinging bachelor Dick excepted) how do we explain Bruce being in his mid 30's? He and Dick are the biggest problem really. All the others can stay somewhat young because of their powers- Supes being a solar battery, Diana being immortal, Flash tapping into the Speed Force- but even Bruce has to give up the good fight sometime around his 40's.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Well, if we just kill all the damn Titans, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
Actually, we'd have to make it so they and all their kids and lovers, etc. had never existed! No evidence must be left!!!
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
They need to steal one of the decent ideas John Byrne had and have Bats take a bath in the Lazarus Pit (after defeating the Serpent's Head once and for all) and becoming immortal, like the rest of his League buddies (since we've seen evidence that Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, etc. don't age, and that the Flash(es), etc. can also negate their aging in various ways.

Then it will be a moot point whether or not Bats is 'getting too old for this ****.'
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
I dunno. An immortal Batman just seems wrong on so many levels.

Er... Unless he's a vampire.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
I dunno. An immortal Batman just seems wrong on so many levels.

Er... Unless he's a vampire.

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Yeah, that was an Elseworlds called "Red Reign".

Does anyone concur that my assertion that aging and the passage of time is MUCH more a problem for DC than for Marvel? I thought my post near the top of this page would've provoked some responses, but instead, the thread went DEAD for five days!

Thoughts?
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Well Marvel doesn't really do the legacy thing. (They did with Legacy, and look how he turned out.) They are starting to get to that point tho'. But I don't think there was anything to debate with your comment Lardy. Marvel doesn't have the aging issue DC has.

With DC's use of teen sidekicks, that's been the biggest cause for aging. Even if the JSA were tied to WWII, you could say their... enhanced physiology would slow their aging rate. And their kids could feasibly be pushing 30.

Up until Young Avengers, Marvel's only really aging character would be Spiderman. And well, they've clearly fixed that problem haven't they... The New Mutants, while being the underclassmen, weren't as young as Dick Grayson. And they haven't aged as much either- Sam still can't drink if I recall an X-Men annual from a couple years back.

Captain America, Namor, Magneto- these characters have connections to WWII. But through cryogenics, reversed aging, and mutant anatomy, they've been able to remain active even into their 70's. For the rest of the Marvel U, it's a matter of tweaking origins ala` Heroes Reborn. (Not a fine example, but an obvious one.)
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
They should go the "New Look Batman" route and erase all previous continuity and have Batman and Robin just 'show up' again. They've "been around awhile" but no one knows them.

Internet fans would commit suicide by the dozens.

Honestly, Bruce Wayne not being Batman does not appeal to me. Its Bruce or bust. And let the entire DCU history and continuity suffer if need be. And obviously, most of DC, *and* Time Warner, agree with me. I'd wager so do most of the citizens of the United States of America that do not collect comics on a regular basis. Mainly because Bruce is central now to the history of modern popular-culture. He's beyond things such as 'continuity'.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
Lard Lad, I think you said one of the few things that the internet can agree on.

I don't like the idea of an immortal Batman, it goes against the entire "idea" of the character (mortal man who has trained, but no special powers). To make him immortal disconnects him from all of that.

It's one reason I don't like the Lazarus pit, I'm fine with it being for Ra's Al Ghul (after all, villains play by different rules than heroes) but for anyone else to use it is just wrong in my eyes. I don't even like the idea that Black Canary supposedly got dunked, to me the Lazarus pit works if only Ra's can use it, but when you open up to everyone else in the DC it blurs lines or something.

Here, let me try to be coherent. To me, Batman, and his characters (Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, etc) work on two levels, the street level of the Bat-verse (Gotham and their respective cities) and the DC universe as a whole.

To me it makes no sense for Batman NOT to call on Superman everytime Joker breaks out of jail. I cannot fathom a Batman who is so arrogant that he won't use ALL the resources at his disposal to stop a mass murderer. HOWEVER, you can't have a superhero (or a protagonist in general) who is constantly being bailed out or helped by other heroes. He becomes incompetent. So Batman has to fight crime on his own. It is a situation that has to exist for the character to be viable.

Look at the other cities of the DCU, generally all their costumed denziens are powered, yet Gotham is crawling with NON-powered heroes, in fact I can't think of any Gotham based hero who has powers. It's because Gotham is a base for the more "realistic" non-powered stories whereas the rest of the DCU is for the powered set.

So that is the Bat-verse, in a way if Batman had been independently owned or with a smaller company (ala Fawcett) it would make sense to have Batman in a separate universe/earth as that is essentially how those characters operate in their own titles (or the "Bat" titles).

The DC universe Batman (and family) are the characters that interact with Superman, Flash, Titans, etc. Also very important aspects of the characters, and interesting relationships that shouldn't be gotten ride of for the sake of convince, but in reality conflict with the Bat-verse version of the characters. This is why you don't see the JLA, Titans, or anyone else visiting these characters in their own book on any regular basis (there is generally one issue every now and then, but I bet you can name all the ones in the last decade on one hand, and even fewer would be ones in which the Bat clan and the other heroes actually took out a Bat foe).

Ok, so my point is that DC has a very popular character that is important to the DCU, but also whose solo adventures don't work in the context of the DCU. We as fans buy into this conceit (just as we will believe that a man can fly) but as fans we generally don't want to see these two verses mesh. So an immortal Batman crosses into the more fantastic realm of all the other Bat characters (same with using all the advance tech the JLA has make Babs walk again, crosses a line). And that line into the fantastic is why I don't like the Lazarus pit.

So DC is kinda stuck with this problem. They could do a general reboot, but I am against that solution because a) it undoes a lot of character growth/movement (I don't want to see Dick as Robin again) b) characters will disappear (Tim Drake, one of my faves and c) you open up a whole new can of worms with whether you should have Clark end up and Lois (predictable but what many fans want as they see this as "right") or putting Clark with someone else just to "shake" things up and thus alienate fans who feel the relationship is "hollow" or whatever

Anyways, hope that makes sense.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Your comment about Batman existing in two separate universes really highlights my frustration with the Big Two books. I miss the different tones of Mike Grell’s Green Arrow and James Robinson’s Starman. Too often the books are generic super-hero fare- replace Hawkman for Blue Beetle, Aquaman for the Atom. Under Judd Winnick’s run, Green Arrow had a sidekick return, a son, a new sidekick and even a computer hacker working with him, Might as well have been writing Batman! Sad part of it all, I blame readers as much as the publishers- when DC tries with books like Manhunter readers don’t flock to it like I would expect.

Marvel is doing a great job handling Captain America- Bru writes a gripping espionage book, and Bendis has him in a standard super-hero title interacting with the rest of the universe. I wish we had more of that. I like the idea of the urban vigilante in Batman, and the adventurous Dark Knight in JLA or Outsiders. Give me the poor man’s Robin Hood in GA and the swashbuckler in Justice League.

With all the books out there, why can’t we have more variety in our heroes?
 

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Posted by cleome on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:

quote:

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Originally posted by cleome:

Artists seem to get much more leeway on this front than do writers, which isn't really fair when you think about it.

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I don't give artists that kind of leeway, either. There should be rules that say "This species looks like this." Without that, all I can ever assume I'm seeing is an interpretation of the fictional world's reality, and can never fully engage with it. I want to believe I'm seeing its reality directly.

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quote:

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This is the same reason I hate flex-time. It prevents full engagement because older stories, to be accepted in continuity, can't be as they appear in the actual comics (that is, they took place in a more recent year than shown).

And beyond that, it's the reason I hate retcons in general. It's why I want a universe that takes a more literal and less conceptual approach, if you get what I mean.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
I didn't mean for this to linger unloved for so long...


While doing some bathroom remodeling, it has occurred to me there is no reading material in my bathroom. There's a reason for that- I'm not one for reading in there. But I know many people that do. There's even a series of books- The Bathroom Reader- aimed at providing leisure time reading in the lavatory.

So I'm thinking of stocking up some older comics to put in there for folks to read. Something that would provide them with a complete story preferrably. What would you recommend as a great single issue story?

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Though I don't leave comics in the bathroom, I must admit I take them with me quite often when I know I'm gonna be...sitting in there for a while!

As for what to leave in there for others? Damn, I don't know! But if I were to choose, I'd put Adventure Comics #0 or some other reprints of classic comics. Those issues of Marvel Tales that reprinted classic Stan Lee Spidey would be prefect as would any Free Comic Book Day offerings. And didn't DC recently do some cheap reprints of good Vertigo/mature first issues to give prospectors who saw Watchmen some cool, inexpensive entry points? If so, those would be great, too!

If nothing else, all those'd pass the time really well while they had a righteous b.m.!

(Nice to know someone missed the Roundtable, btw!)
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
One of my favorite single-issue stories is Avengers # 264, by Roger Stern and John Buscema, showcasing the Wasp and introducing Rita DeMara, the female Yellowjacket, a character with great potential that was sadly never realized. The Wasp's personality was often ill-defined, but here, she's the most likeable she ever was, and thanks to John Buscema, she never looked lovelier.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
Swamp Thing #32 - "Pog" - Linguistic craziness, Walt Kelly meets Alan Moore, funny and sad, what's not to love?

The Sandman # 18 - "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" - Great story and the only time I've loved Jones' art (probably because he's not drawing humans).

JLA #42 - "Half A Mind To Save A World" - The JLA struggles to remove a microscopic civilisation that is growing on the brain tumour of a sick child. It was pretty standard until the end when you realise it's an analogue for Krypton and the emotional impact on Superman is really powerful.

Suicide Squad - Any of the "Personnel Files" issues. These happened once a year or so and were "Down time" between missions. Each one had just tremendous character examinations and set up the next years stories perfectly.

Swamp Thing #59 - "Reunion" - Abby gets to say goodbye to her Dad. That page where they embrace after all they've suffered is still beautiful.

G.I.Joe #21 - "Silent Interlude" - Perhaps the only use of the "Silent" comic gimmick I've loved, and I wasn't even a huge Joe fan. Hamma not only tells a great story, but his reveal at the end not only changes the course of the Joe Comic, but really transformed the entire franchise.

Detective Comics #500 - "To Kill A Legend" - The Phantom Stranger takes Bruce and Dick to an Earth where Bruce's parent are about to be killed. Dick wrestles with whether they can and should stop the events from happening and deny the world without heroes a Batman, and Bruce tries to get the closure he's sought his whole life. Great story with a great ending.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Issues of Jonah Hex or Dawyn Cooke's issues of the Spirit.

Amazing Spider-Man #22 (I know, you wouldn't want that one lying around your bathroom but seriously its such a fun, upbeat, action-filled, great single issue story).
 

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Posted by Bicycle Repair Man on :
 
Pretty much anything by Carl Barks: the Duck Man RULES!!
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
This should give this thread a shot in the arm:

Career-spanning interview with Peter David
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
The only David stuff I've read is the Tail end of the DC series of "Fallen Angel". It was for a reader exchange program on another board (I started picking this up and the other guy agreed to try Human Target, it didn't save either title).

It was OK, but not great.

I do have the complete run of Hulk DVD they released a few years back and look forward to the day I get up to his run on the book though. I've heard good things.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
Hmmm PAD's work that I've read

AQUAMAN - wow Aquaman can be cool. His take seemed similar to Busiek's, that of Tarzan underwater. PAD mentions DC wanting him to be a king and a loner at the same time, and he made it work. Less super-hero and more adventure, he started a great run that Larsen and Jurgens kept going.

YOUNG JUSTICE - this was a FUN book. And it was that mythical all-ages book that wasn't overly childish or too melodramatic. PAD brought in some great new characters - Empress, Lil Lobo, Arrowette. This book made John's TT run possible.

X-FACTOR - the current run. I started reading for Siryn and Rictor, but PAD has me actually liking Monet and Maddrox. Some folks have lost their love for it, but PAD does his best to make this a reader's book.

FALLEN ANGEL - PAD's best work- his characters unleashed, his stories unfettered. Morality is gray and bloody, life is uncertain, and not always happy. It's a revolutionary look at super-heroes.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
When Peter David is on, he's really on. He always seems to go that one extra step into thinking about how a characters powers would affect their personality (or how their personality would shape their attitude towards and expressions of their powers).

Like some of my other favorite authors, he's got a knack for dusting off abandoned 'third tier' characters and making them all shiny and new.

It's when he's working with pre-established characters with lots of baggage, like Spiderman, that I'm not so impressed. I don't know if that's him having to fight many other writers pre-conceptions, or my just often being less than interested in characters I've had 20 years or so to read my fill of.
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
I remember discovering PAD as he began writing Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-man. He came out of nowhere to give that title a real shot in the arm! He only stayed for a year or two, but that was a solid run of stories. If he'd stayed longer I believe PAD could've become one of the definitive Spider-man writers. Who can argue with the quality of "The Death of Jean DeWolf"? But his run was just as defined by some great two-parters and especially some good done-in-ones.

It's a shame that when he finally returned on Friendly, that his hands were tied so badly by editorial dictates. I've heard he did the best with what he had, but it could've been SO much better without the handcuffs!

Then there's Hulk! Wow! The definitive run on the character, bar none. What was cool was how he kept reinventing the character to keep him fresh. I especially loved the period where Bruce went back to being gray Hulk and then to alternating between becoming green or grey. The era with smart Hulk and the Pantheon was really goo, too.

In fact it was consistently good until the Onslaught debacle tied his storytelling up. I actually dropped the book at that time because the stories were so dreadful. I came back for the final arc, though, and it was a poignant, heartbreaking way for PAD to close out his run.

At DC I loved his work on Aquaman and Supergirl. He breathed some much need life into Aquaman, a character who never seemed to find the right hook (natch) for him.

And Supergirl was a masterpiece for him, right up there with his Hulk, I think. It always felt so personal, and the religious themes were almost unheard of in mainstream comics. It had a few lulls, true, but it always found a way to bounce back. And that last arc was one of the best ever to close out a series. It's too bad Linda Danvers appears to have been wiped out of continuity for all intents and purposes--but I think we all know where the character went next at least spiritually in a new home where PAD didn't have to worry about editorial constraints.

Lots of honorable mentions, including some solid work on Star Trek, some brilliant moments on X-Factor and a book I have a soft spot for, Justice from Marvel's short-lived New Universe line.

As for Fallen Angel, it's definitely on my to-buy list at some point. I did buy the first DC trade back-when and enjoyed it a lot. One barrier for me has always been the lack of trades completing the entire DC series. I'd prefer to read all the DC stories before starting the IDW trades. I can hardly believe that IDW hasn't obtained the rights to reprint the DC series. Does anyone know why this is?!?! Other comapnies do this all the time!

Anyhow, I'd feel negligent if I didn't mention PAD's terrific work in novels. Howling Mad is one of the funniest books I've ever read! And his Star Trek: TNG novels are among the best licensed books I've ever read, right up there with Timothy Zahn's Star Wars work. If you love TNG and haven't read "Vendetta" and "Imzadi" I and II, you're really missing out!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I’ve always felt I have an interesting POV/history with PAD’s work throughout my comic book reading experience. When I first started reading comics religiously, it was around age 11-12, and as many of you know, my father had been collecting comics since 1960 and already had an enormous collection, so I had a very different roadmap. But also at that time of my first really getting into them, my father had been getting the CBG (Comics Buyers Guide) delivered weekly for several years. It was an awesome newspaper format back then, and so I started reading that each week too. I distinctly remember using CBG to catch myself up on decades of history, where Silver Age characters I loved were doing now, and really getting a better feel for comics as a whole. Of course, not everything in there was suitable for an 11 year old, but hey, I read the Sin City comics when I was like 14 or younger. Anyway, PAD has had a column in CBG for almost (or over?) two decades, in the back of the newspaper/magazine (as it is now), called “But I Digress…”

It was “But I Digress…” that I really started to get to know PAD, and understand his point of view. I really feel like I grew up with PAD as a major influence on my comic book reading experience—more so with that than his actual comics. But one day I eventually put two and two together and realized Peter David wrote comics that my Dad was collecting, so I started to read his comics as they came out; I also hunted backwards and read all his old Marvel work. But it is because of this that I see his work in two ways: (A) I usually love it; and because I’ve loved it for so long, I’m usually pretty excited about his projects; (B) I feel very comfortable being very critical of his work that I think is flawed. And there is a portion of his work that I think hasn’t been the greatest stuff. He’s obviously a controversial writer on the internet, which means some people don’t like him outright without reading his stuff, but so many of his fans just plain like everything he writes, and its that latter group that I find extremely annoying.

Anyway, some thoughts:

Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man – I actually read this before I knew PAD wrote these issues, and Lardy is dead-on; he gave the title a real shot in the arm, and stepped it up to being an A-quality Spider-Man title. His “Death of Jean DeWolf” story stands the test of time and is better and better every time I’ve reread it (which is probably like 20 times). His other issues, including his very first introducing Blaze, are also very good. During this era, when Spidey had a black costume, there was an added sense of angst across all three titles. You can almost pinpoint it to the moment when Sin-Eater fires at Spidey, he jumps out of the way and the crowd behind him is hit. Henceforth for a good year, it was angst the like that hasn’t been seen since ASM #17. Sometimes it got annoying (re: Web of Spider-Man); sometimes it was done perfectly. PAD’s was the latter.

Incredible Hulk – in my mind, the greatest Hulk run of all time, and one of the greatest comic book runs of all-time. It is what got me to love the Hulk. Either the summer of 1992 or 1993 I read the entire run of the Hulk (usually at the beach) and remember being completely blown away by PAD’s portion of the run. Most of it is brilliant, but my favorite era is the Pantheon, #400, Rick & Marlo’s wedding but also Rick’s Bachelor Party, and so much more. It was the first time I ever saw such perfectly done humor mix with some of the most poignant emotional moments.

Aquaman – And then PAD came to Aquaman and completely blew my mind. His is my definitive Aquaman as well, including every little tidbit he did. He made him badass, ill-tempered, finally reflective of the tragedies that befell him in the 70’s (dead son? Almost impossible to recover from.), and he roped in the various far-reaching charactres of DC’s underwater world and them all together. Dolphin! Hook hand! Beard! New Costume! Koryak! Garth becomes Tempest, gets a cool costume and at last becomes cool! Battles the JLA and cheats—awesome! Sea Devils, Tsunami, Neptune Perkins and then Deep Blue! PAD had everything. And the history with Atlan and the more in depth origins of Atlantis and Aquaman were perhaps the best part, which leads me too…

The Atlantis Chronicles – which I read sometime in the middle of PAD’s run, since it came to my attention that many of his themes were continuations of what he had done here. And wow, it really threw me for a loop. What a damn fine mini-series, one of the classic yet unsung greats of the 1980’s.

Supergirl – A completely unique and intriguing book at the time, which combined the Superman mythos with a mood reminiscent of Twin Peaks. This was incredible, and I remember being blown away the first few years.

With Supergirl, Aquaman and Hulk going at the same time, PAD was peaking in the 1990’s. And then IMO, they all took a nosedive in quality and seemed to wander seamlessly for a few years. And only through his CBG articles did I later learn why: he was in the midst of a divorce and having a hard time finding his motivations for each of the three. And looking back on it, its evident that PAD himself was likely similar to Aquaman wandering alone in the water, the Hulk reverting back to a mindless loner, etc. So I don’t really blame him, because like I said, I feel like I kind of know him.

Yet, he had several other great runs since then:

Young Justice – one of the great comics of the last 20 years, and it’s a damn shame it ended. One of the most fun comics ever.

Fallen Angel – truly his masterpiece, which continues to be a wonderful read that is full of so much that it will undoubtedly take future rereads to pick up on some pieces.

Dark Tower series – having PAD onboard has no doubt ensured the transition from gigantic novels to comic books has been a creatively successful one.

Spyboy – one of the coolest Dark Horse / PAD series that no one apparently bought but me.

X-Factor (current) – I think its one of his best efforts in this decade outside Fallen Angel. I know some people are down on it because of recent issues, but I don’t think the quality of the writing has been that horrible; the art definitely has but its not PAD’s fault. I’m definitely willing to wait a good amount longer to see what PAD has in mind.

But I’d be wrong to not include what I think have been some poor showings:

Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man – despite some worthy tries to bring in some great moments (Betty Brant, Flash, etc.), for the most part, I found this to be one of PAD’s most unenjoyable runs on anything ever.

She-Hulk – another I really disliked, which I felt slow and boring. I just expect better from Peter David, and I have no great love of She-Hulk to keep me intrigued.

Of these last two, perhaps Lardy is right and the larger Marvel editorial hampered what he was trying to do. But knowing PAD like I think I do, I know he’s often complained about crossovers before but is always the first to try to use them to give his titles a sales bump. So the fault is most definitely his.

Random PAD material I’ve never read
(1) First X-Factor run – my father had no use for X-Factor the first time around and so we never owned it and I never read it.
(2) Star Trek stuff – just not my thing
(3) Spider-Man 2099 – at the time I was a young teenager and since it wasn’t “the real Spider-Man”, I refused to read it. Ever since, I’ve just had no desire to do anything than glance through some back-issues.

[ June 30, 2009, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Random PAD material I've never read
(1)First X-Factor run
(3) Spider-Man 2099

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I'm fairly certain I have most of (1) and a large chunk of (3) if you ever wanna stop by and dig through a couple of longboxes. I enjoyed both but don't consider them part of "my collection".
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man – I actually read this before I knew PAD wrote these issues, and Lardy is dead-on; he gave the title a real shot in the arm, and stepped it up to being an A-quality Spider-Man title.[/qb

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[qb]Incredible Hulk – in my mind, the greatest Hulk run of all time, and one of the greatest comic book runs of all-time.

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The Atlantis Chronicles – which I read sometime in the middle of PAD’s run, since it came to my attention that many of his themes were continuations of what he had done here. And wow, it really threw me for a loop. What a damn fine mini-series, one of the classic yet unsung greats of the 1980’s.

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Young Justice – one of the great comics of the last 20 years, and it’s a damn shame it ended. One of the most fun comics ever.

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Dark Tower series – having PAD onboard has no doubt ensured the transition from gigantic novels to comic books has been a creatively successful one.

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Spyboy – one of the coolest Dark Horse / PAD series that no one apparently bought but me.

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X-Factor (current) – I think its one of his best efforts in this decade outside Fallen Angel. I know some people are down on it because of recent issues, but I don’t think the quality of the writing has been that horrible; the art definitely has but its not PAD’s fault. I’m definitely willing to wait a good amount longer to see what PAD has in mind.

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Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man – despite some worthy tries to bring in some great moments (Betty Brant, Flash, etc.), for the most part, I found this to be one of PAD’s most unenjoyable runs on anything ever.

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Originally posted by LardLad:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man – I actually read this before I knew PAD wrote these issues, and Lardy is dead-on; he gave the title a real shot in the arm, and stepped it up to being an A-quality Spider-Man title.

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I never understood why PAD didn't stay on Spidey longer. Do you remember anything from those "But I Digress..." columns? My best guess there is that he left because he was hired to write Spidey 2099 and didn't want to write 2 versions of the character. Total guess though.

PAD's penchant for balancing humor with drama was just so perfect for Spidey. What could've been...*sigh*

(2099, btw, had its moments but kinda ran out of gas after the second year, IMO.)

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You know, I’ve read hundreds (thousands?) of PAD columns where he’s talked about his time writing Spider-Man, but I can’t remember him giving a reason for leaving PPTSS? I don’t think any particularly memorable creators came on after him, so I don’t think he was pushed out. He does love Spider-Man though, and has said so several times. One character he created, the Foreigner, was a great example of some of the new, interesting foes Spidey was battling in the 80’s.

I do think there was a large gap of time between his run on PPTSS and S2009 though, like a couple of years. But I’m too lazy to really check that out

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Originally posted by LardLad:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Spyboy – one of the coolest Dark Horse / PAD series that no one apparently bought but me.

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Bought this and enjoyed it at the beginning but shipping delays absolutely murdered this book for me.

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Originally posted by LardLad:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:

[QUOTE][qb]Incredible Hulk – in my mind, the greatest Hulk run of all time, and one of the greatest comic book runs of all-time.

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Y'know, other than the slump near the end that I mentioned it's definitely worthy of the praise, though I had one quibble with the Pantheon era that I've never been satisfied with: Marlo's resurrection. It just seemed a little too easy, and I kept expecting the other shoe to drop because of this. But it never did. I know we've seen many, many of these in comics, but this one never worked for me at all. For me it's a "jump the shark" moment. Anyone else have some thoughts there?

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Originally posted by LardLad:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:

[QUOTE][qb]Young Justice – one of the great comics of the last 20 years, and it’s a damn shame it ended. One of the most fun comics ever.

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I never picked this up for some reason. The first couple of issues just didn't do anything for me. I've heard good things, though.

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IMO, it doesn’t really get really good until about 7-8 issues in. Around this time Impulse and Superboy had been fun and cool for awhile but had both begun to get a little dry IMO. It wasn’t until he brought in the girls and then really starting showing them interact with one another that the series took off. I also think PAD revitalized both Impulse and Superboy too. He really grew Cassie up very gradually and realistically. And Arrowette was my favorite character of the entire series. Even later, when he brought in the a clone teenage version of Lobo it worked; the Ray was even more awesome, but he only had the briefest time using him. I’d give the issues a chance if you ever get the opportunity. It had a sense of fun that so few comics have, yet it didn’t feel like a kids book.
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
I'm much more of a follower of characters than creators, but there a few writers whose work I'll always at least try, even if I'm otherwise uninterested in whatever property/subject they're writing.

Peter David's one of them.

I came late to the HULK party, but loved the Pantheon issues. I'd like to see them show up again, but pretty much only if PAD's the writer.

I know what Lardlad means about Marlo's resurrection. I think from many other writers, the lack of a further twist would've gone unnoticed, but with PAD, it sort of *did* leave the reader unfulfilled. I know I, too, always expected some other shoe to drop.

I guess sometimes a resurrection is just a resurrection.

I enjoyed all the usual suspects-- SUPERGIRL, AQUAMAN, YOUNG JUSTICE (which did take a few issues to grow some heart beneath the chuckles), etc.

About the first X-FACTOR-- if nothing else, the issue where Doc Samson has sessions with each member is worth seeking out. It's a classic, in it's own way.

I agree that a wild variety of artists and worse, artistic styles, have hampered the second X-FACTOR. The stories have mostly been worth reading, particularly if, like me, you have some amount of fondness for the characters. I'm pretty tired of the current alternative future storyline, but it's balanced by a mysterious villain and the return of Shatterstar, both of which I'm enjoying.

I think Jamie Madrox joins Linda Danvers, the Pantheon and a select group of other characters that PAD has placed his stamp upon. Not a stamp of ownership, but of true characterization.

I had mixed feelings about his SHE-HULK run, too. Losing the vivid supporting cast was a misfire, I think. However, there was some gold-- namely the Lady Liberators issues. The story they were involved in wasn't all that earth-shaking (but it was provocative in a subtle sort of way), but the way PAD wrote the women, particulary Valkyrie, was incredibly entertaining. I think if he got the chance to pen a Val series, she could join that select group of characters I mentioned earlier.

Did anyone read the Marvel Pets Handbook that came out a couple of weeks ago? Apparently, someone at Marvel thinks that the Valkyrie in SHE-HULK was the Samantha Parrington one. I don't see how that could fit with the way PAD wrote her.

I haven't read the ST:TNG novels listed above, but I did read and can recommend the FINAL FRONTIER sub-series of Trek books. At least the early ones-- somehow I lost track of Trek for awhile there.

I like that it's sort of off to the side from the usual Star Trek universe-- and especially like that PAD brought back the characters of M'ress and Arex from the animated series that gets woefully overlooked.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
I'm very happy to see all the mad PAD love in this thread. I can't add much more than a few random thoughts:

- I notice nobody's mentioned PAD's run on Dreadstar. I'm not really surprised, but I really hope that someday it'll gain more recognition, as, in my opinion, PAD actually improved on Jim Starlin's original Dreadstar the same way that Walt Simonson's Thor improved on Lee & Kirby's original Thor.

- PAD did not quit Peter Parker The Spectacular Spider-Man. The Powers That Be forced then-Spidey-editor Jim Owsley (now known as Christopher Priest) to fire PAD because of a sh*tstorm between Marvel's editorial and marketing departments. As PAD was a marketing staffer at the time, he was aware of the situation and doesn't hold it against Priest.

- Young Justice and Supergirl came out while I was reading very few comics and wasn't following the industry or going to comics stores. I've had to severely cut down on back-issue purchases, but I like what I've read so far and hope to complete the runs in the future.

- X-Factor Mk. 2 was my favorite comic book for its first couple years, then I thought it went into a quality spiral, and I dropped it after # 35. The controversial childbirth issue was good enough to get me to Byrne-steal the book every month, but so far it hasn't recaptured enough of the magic for me to start buying it again.

- I can't wait for Fallen Angel Reborn. As with X-Factor, the first two years or so were pure gold, but I feel that the last few issues suffered from having to cram a long-term storyarc into a small amount of space; great ending, though, and I'm confident the relaunch will be back on form.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Thinking about PAD a little more, I've kind of been developing a term for "PAD characters": these are specific characters within a series that PAD writes so well, they memorably stand out in your mind when you think about the series in retrospect. Its kind of hard to put into words what I’m thinking, but what I mean is, PAD usually writes his solo/team titles with an excellent analysis of the main character(s) and the emotional experience they’re having; he also provides excellent tension with the character(s) romantic partner (and in fact, I would say goes ten steps further in these scenarios but that’s another stream of thought); but he *also* provides excellent supporting characters that really shine in the series. Now don’t get me wrong: (1) these characters do not take over the book (re: they do not pull a fonzy)…otherwise we would probably hate these characters in retrospect. And (2) these are not the main character or the romantic partner; these are in addition to those long-standing archetypes.

For example (granted it’s a little harder to find in team books):

(1) Fallen Angel – this one is jam-packed full of them, but IMO Black Mariah has really emerged as a bonafide “PAD character” star. She’s my favorite character of the series, and almost every line of hers is either the funniest line in the issue, or perhaps the most emotionally poignant. And she doesn’t dominate the series at all, she’s purely a supporting character and will always remain that way.

(2) Incredible Hulk – Rick Jones might be the easy one to think of, but I would say that’s not true, since Rick is essentially a Marvel Heroes star anyway. Rather, I think Marlo is the type of character I’m getting at. She sticks out in my mind as the quintessential PAD character during his run: her very presence helped further develop all the characters and stories around her; she was awesomely funny at times; she was filled with tragedy and drama, and her scenes sometimes were whimsical and fun and yet at other times disturbing and poignant.

(3) Supergirl – I think ultimately Buzz developed as the type of character in Supergirl similar to the others. And honestly, I never really cared for Buzz myself, but I can see what PAD was trying to do…he certainly developed more than any other character in the whole run. I know some people (not on LW but on other boards) complained he was too much like Spike from Buffy but PAD has always said that was never intentional. It was only after fans made that comparison that PAD tried to play that up online to get Buffy fans to check out the sales-ailing Supergirl.

(4) Aquaman – Aquaman is chalk-full of these types of characters as well, but Dolphin is of course the one that sticks in my mind, even though the early issues flirted with the idea of a Dolphin/Aquaman romance (so yeah, I’m breaking my own rule ). But up until PAD took hold of her, Dolphin was basically a throw away DC character with one late 60’s Showcase appearance and then a few good bits of dialogue in Crisis on Infinite Earths #12. That’s right—she only appeared in basically two other issues prior (her most memorable thing was her cut-off shorts honestly until PAD took the character). He then used her perfectly: she went from being the reader’s POV person to someone questioning Aquaman’s actions to being his best ally and then when just maybe her presence in the book was getting repetitive, PAD used her to breath some fresh life into Garth much like he did with Orin.

I’m sure there are dozens of examples, including multiple in the various books, and that’s a tribute to how well PAD uses supporting characters. Its always done differently (he is an excellent writer after all and its obvious he doesn’t want to bore himself more than anything), but they are always the ones you least expect and they always change the scope of the series in subtle ways by affecting characters and story montages themselves.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
On the side-topic of PAD's Star Trek books, he had a line of 'New Frontiers' book that I tended to call 'Sex Trek,' because there was a whole lot of booty-callin' going on.

It got particularly confusing when the hermaphroditic engineer got involved, as s/he was canoodling at different points with both the male helmsman and the female doctor.

Unlike classic Star Trek, which had a bunch of normal people and Spock, the New Frontiers crew was full of more unique characters, much like the Next Generation crew (android, klingon, blind dude with super-visor, empath), which gave many of the main cast a special 'hook' of some sort.

The first one had a hamfisted tribute to Gene Roddenberry in it, but the remaining books picked up steam a bit and started fleshing out secondary characters, as well as introducing a few 'bridge' characters from previous series, such as the Vulcan doctor Selar (first seen in Next Generation).

If you're a Trek fan, they are a fun read. I haven't read a whole lot of Star Trek books in the last decade or so, but I think that PAD is the only writer to so far be allowed to write a series of book not set in one of the mainstream series continuities (i.e. you'll find a hundred or more novels set about the Enterprise of Kirk and Spock, or the Enterprise of Picard and Data, or Deep Space Nine or Janeway's Voyager, but not nearly as many books set on 'some other dudes ship,' let alone series of books about author-created characters on their own ship!).

Wow, I just looked them up on Wiki. I'd read the first three or four, but they're up to *seventeen!*
 

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Posted by LardLad on :
 
One series he worked on that hasn't really been mentioned is Captain Marvel. I thought that one was pretty much a misfire from the get-go. I gave up on it after about a year into the first series and came back and quickly left again when it was relaunched.

I thought the character of Genis-Vell had huge potential after reading Avengers Forever and was really excited about the new series launch and PAD being attached to it. It started out decent, but it seemed like it was trying to recapture the Hulk vibe a little too much with the style of humor and the presence of Rick and Marlo. What killed everything for me was when PAD dove into Genis going insane and basically turning evil. I'm not saying there's no room for that kind of story, but for it to have been effective, I think it would have been better to establish Genis in a heroic light for a pretty good length of time before exploring him losing it. I felt I'd barely even begun to know this character before he was being torn down.

What was worse was that the arc just went on too long. If you're going to take the book in this direction, you'd better make it absolutely captivating. It wasn't.

I know the book got a lot of acclaim during it's life, but I just don't see it. I think that it hasn't been mentioned along with PAD's career highlights here speaks volumes.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
I was just thinking of "Captain Marvel" in relation to this thread. I also was really psyched about Genis after "Avengers Forever". Maybe Busiek would've been a better choice for the series, but aside from the artist making Cap too bulky and making that star on his chest too big, I enjoyed the series a lot! Yeah, it may have helped for Marlo and Rick to have stepped back a bit, but I thought it was a very entertaining series.

However, I also really disliked the turn the series took after Genis went mad in the second series. That wasn't fun or funny. It's too bad Genis met such a bad end - that horrible outfit in "Thunderbolts" then getting written off like that. He could've been a real heavy-hitter in the Marvel U.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

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Originally posted by DrakeB3004: It's too bad Genis met such a bad end - that horrible outfit in "Thunderbolts" then getting written off like that. He could've been a real heavy-hitter in the Marvel U.

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Dreadstar and, to lesser extent, Star Trek (I've only read a few of PAD's Trek comics and none of his Trek prose), are what keep me believing that PAD would write one hell of a Fantastic Four. Can't you just picture PAD re-teaming with Todd Nauck for a long run on FF? Yum.

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
...Marvel's continued insistence on pairing one of their flagship titles with creators who are either a terrible fit for it or just not top-flight talent

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
For me, the point at which comic book deaths became meaningless was the resurrection of Jean Grey back in 1984.

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Originally posted by LardLad:
But I'm a hypocrite, I suppose, because I approve of some other resurrections:

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Originally posted by Set:
Worse, IMO, is when a dead character is brought back and the people who brought them back don't seem to have a brilliant idea of how to immediately use them.

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Originally posted by Jerry:
My favorite Justice League of America story is called “The Man Who Murdered Santa Claus”.

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Originally posted by Jerry:
My favorite Justice League of America story is called “The Man Who Murdered Santa Claus”.

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Cobie, I look forward to your thoughts on the Morrison era and beyond, but more importantly, your post has awakened my curiosity enough to give JLI a second chance, even given my general distaste for Giffen. I've requested all four available trades from my library, and I'll share my thoughts on them as I read them. And I hope that maybe my post awakened your curiosity enough to give The Obsidian Age a second chance (glad to hear you like The Obsidian Age, CJ.)

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Glad you’re checking out the JLI stories, Stealth! I think you’ll be impressed, at least for the early issues of the run.

As for my opinion of the “JLA” ages, here they are. By this point I was actively reading JLA off the stands along with every other DC comic being published those days, and had been for several years.

The Morrison Era
This was my first exposure to Grant Morrison that caused me to check and see his name (I realized I read some of his more obscure work earlier). It subsequently led me to check out his Doom Patrol, Animal Man, etc. And the reason is, I was completely and utterly blown away by how awesome the Morrison JLA stories were. It was everything that comics were not at that point in time: full-on action and drama, problems on a scale almost incomprehensible and all the major players pitching in. It was kind of like taking a Jack Kirby approach to the traditional JLA-type line-up, but doing so in the modern era and making no apologies for it. And it was awesome. The initial White Martian storyline is one the great JLA storylines of all time, and it has just about every type of great action / suspense / mystery / adventure aspect of comic books in four issues. And it set the stage of what was to come: Morrison taking the over the top science-fiction of the Silver Age or the incredibly dramatic mysteries of the Golden Age and doing them in yet a whole new way. I loved it.

As for the JLAers themselves, it was like a breath of fresh air to see the “Big 7” again, and yet it was the Big 7 of that particular era, including Kyle Rayner (and briefly Conner Hawke). Morrison took the PAD-Aquaman, whom was serious, regal and brooding and firmly entrenched that personality into Aquaman’s role in the JLA. He was no longer a joke here; he was pretty much a potential other leader that could command Superman and Batman. Lardy already mentioned Morrison’s effect on Batman, and it was truly awe-inspiring to behold. I also think Morrison was able to inject more life and personality into Kyle-GL than anyone else in the 90’s; I read every single issue with Kyle as GL and they were often boring and whiney with not much happening; here, Morrison had him doing things. When Morrison later added several others to the mix, it made things even larger scale than before, particularly with Zauriel, Orion and Barda. I also liked that he incorporated Steel as a big gun—Steel being yet another major character of the 1990’s. I also found Huntress’s inclusion interesting, including her dismissal by Batman at the close. And of course, it was truly Grant Morrison who made Plastic Man popular again for the first time since the 1940’s. Plas has become associated with the JLA pretty much as well as any of the Silver Age members (not just Ralph but any of them) and that’s because of Grant. It made me a fan of the character for the first time, even though it was a gradual, begrudging process. Grant also had a great issue with the Atom that I loved.

The major criticism that can be wagered against Morrison is the lack of character moments in the series. That’s understandable to a degree but not quite true. For example, Flash, GL and Aquaman in the Rock of Ages storyline had some subtle character moments throughout, interacting with one another, even if it wasn’t Earth-shattering stuff. If anything, I think Morrison (in his kooky comics as a living breathing history persona) was simply following the Gardner Fox approach to JLA: story over characterization. Just like his X-Men was the polar opposite. After all, there is no middle ground with Grant.

So yeah, I loved it. Is it my favorite era of all time? Well, no, but I wouldn’t complain if he became ongoing writer of JLA again.

The Mark Waid Era
A strange thing happened in the 1990’s/ early part of this decade. Mark Waid, who was basically one of the great writers of the 1990’s and someone whose name on a cover could almost guaranty me reading it right away, became a writer whose work I increasingly began to dislike. And it might have actually happened when he took over JLA. To back up, I’ll reiterate I loved Waid’s stuff, particularly his Flash work. When he stepped in for Grant and did the Adam Strange story in the late teens of JLA, I was floored by how excellent it was. One of the best JLA/Adam Strange stories of all time. He then did a story about numbers and luck, with the Atom guest-starring and it was equally as good. Just damn good comics that made me think between Grant and Waid, the DCU was experiencing a “Great Recovery” after years of annoyingly-bad stories across the board. But when Waid took over for Grant and slimmed the membership back down to tell more personal, character-driven stories…well, it basically was boring.

It wasn’t terrible by any means. But something was lost and it was incredibly noticeable. It had lost the excitement factor; the tension; the edge of your seat feeling. It was like a stud horse going lame. And it was noticeable almost immediately. Kyle became whiney again. Aquaman became a background player. Martian Manhunter became “good ol’ J’onn J’onnz, heart and soul of the JLA…yawn…’scuse me while I’m bored to tears”. And then Batman went from being the most effective and badass hero of them all to being just a plain asshole. Because much like Marvel’s greatest failures of *this* decade, a good writer will do something extreme with a character and another writer will try to follow-up but do it in an even more extreme way—or worse, do it without the original essence used—and it just doesn’t work. And all the good Morrison had done with Batman helped take the “Batman is a guy that doesn’t play with others” and turned it into “Batman is a Dick”. By the time Waid left, all of the hoopla surrounding the JLA was gone; the title had basically been deflated to what it was prior to Morrison.

The Joe Kelly Era
Perhaps I will give this a second try based on comments in this thread. And perhaps because Waid was such a letdown after Morrison, it was unfair to Joe Kelly to step in and in the sense of many readers such as me, be given the responsibility to ‘get this ship back on course’. To be honest, I don’t so much remember the actual stories (other than the bigger ones) but I remember scenes and characters. For example, I think Kelly’s strongest usage was with Plastic Man, and Kelly took what Grant started and made Plas even more endearing, even giving him a cool relationship with Batman that made me wish he could do some Brave and Bold stories with the two. He also did a great job with some other random characters, like Jason Blood, that I thought was cool. But on the other hand, I found Faith extremely annoying and I hated his usage of Green Arrow and Hawkgirl which just rang so false to me. I did, however, also find Manitou Raven to be really interesting, and I really liked Dawn, his wife—and was interested afterwards to see her continue on as Manitou Dawn after Raven’s death. I found the Obsidian Age to be exciting, remember thinking it was dragging on too long. Of course, Kelly was trying to find an exciting and interesting way to restore Aquaman and Atlantis back to life after they so stupidly were destroyed in the awful Our Worlds at War miniseries. Major Disaster coming on was something I initially thought was cool but ultimately began to wonder why he even bothered.

I’m a fan of Joe Kelly’s work, and lately in a big way. I first became so because I thought his run on Action Comics was really ground-breaking at the time, and in fact think Action #775 is probably the best Superman story in the last 20 years. However, his X-Men work was pretty lackluster, and I never read his Deadpool stuff. Cut to the modern era, where I think his Spider-Man stuff is the absolute best Amazing Spider-Man material being produced; and his independent work such as Four Eyes is really unique and well-done. I even met Joe Kelly in San Diego when I was a little too embarrassed to bother him and Caliente decided I was being really geeky and shy and forced me to push my way into the line and say hi, using her charms to distract him to come over and talk to me and then we took a picture together. It was really cool.

But his JLA run never was something that jumped out at me. Then again, maybe that second look is all it will take. Especially without the Waid stuff in my mind beforehand and without me being at college and being all distracted his time.

Post Joe Kelly, every writer has a JLA story
Failure. The Denny O’Neal gorilla story was almost the worst JLA story ever—until the John Byrne Doom Patrol one. Awful. Cancellation was indeed imminent.

Crisis of Conscience
Enter Geoff “don’t let the internet fool you, I’m really as good as people say I am” Johns, and the best JLA story to be published in years. Sure, Identity Crisis created all kinds of terrible retcons in JLA history that were designed to shock and awe you, much like an George Bush era press release (in other words, if you like Identity Crisis, I’m actually comparing you to being one of Dick Cheney’s interns). But Geoff came in and added some characterization; some sense of progress and understanding; dynamics and excitement; Red Tornado being awesome again; Zatanna having a point of view (wow, who’d have thunk it?), and so many other things. Not only did Geoff use the classic line-up, he did it in the vacuum of modern events—and he did it well! Too bad it was just one story-arc and it led into Infinite Crisis and beyond. Because it sure was exciting.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
Justice League of America #200 was my very first super-hero comic and remains to this day my favourite comic of all time.

From back-issue bins (which is how I got all my comics back then) I was able to get a complete run of that series from around issue #85 or so on and about 50% of the issues before that too.

The JLA thus became my first favourite property in comics (and Green Arrow my first favourite hero).

To say I've got opinions about how this great team has been handled over the years would be an understatement but I unfortunately don't have the time at the moment to give this topic the attention it deserves.

So, for now, I'm gonna end this post with a TO BE CONTINUED...
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Hope you're able to share your opinions soon, Blacula.

Meanwhile, my library's website informs me that JLI Vols 2 & 3 have arrived, so I'll pick them up tomorrow.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
As promised, here are my thoughts on the first three volumes of JLI:

What I liked -- Fire, Ice, and Big Barda, although they don't fully compensate for the appaling portrayals of Black Canary and Dr. Light II in the early issues; that said, the first three issues were probably the ones I enjoyed the most, thanks to a well-balanced and semi-serious tone and good use of obscure characters (Avengers analogs from the Silver Age); Batman's line "The only person really qualified to command an International League is the only one of us who really sees this planet as a unified whole -- and that's you, J'onn," made me smile, as did Batman's portrayal in general, which only underlines how much of a smug jerk he was under Morrison; J'onn's portrayal was good, too, and Mark Waid went on to draw on J'onns slyly dry sense of humor here for "JLA: Year One"; and I found Rocket Red very likable, although some of his dialogue was a bit too Yakov Smirnoff; overall, I can see where this series infulenced later works that I liked, such as Peter David's "X-Factor", and I give it credit for that.

Now, having said that...

What I didn't like -- I've always hated Booster Gold and the Post-Englehart/Pre-Johns incarnation of Guy Gardner, and these stories didn't change my mind; I don't like Blue Beetle, either, although he was tolerable before Booster showed up; as the series goes on, the jokes get piled on thicker and thicker with an increasingly heavy hand; books like this walk a fine line, and I think most of the time it falls on the wrong side of that line; there's a lack of verve and a lack of urgency which are frustrating, and the stories tend to peter out rather than climax.

In the end, I can see where this series must have seemed refreshing in the context of the late 80s (something Giffen notes in his surprisingly honest and self-deprecating introduction to the first volume), but now that irony is the rule rather than the exception, it just seems like another super-hero book.
 

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Posted by Lardi the Incorruptible on :
 
I'm actually surprised, Stealth, that you let my JLA/Avengers comparison & contrast (from the previous page) go without comment, as you are such an ardent fan of both franchises! Could it be you overlooked that post?

Anyhoo, pre-JLI, there are three JLA stories that stand out in my (admittedly limited) JLA reading history, and both feature teamups with JSA:

The first was drawn by George Perez (before I had any idea who that was!) and featured individual members from both teams being picked off by the Secret Society of Super Villains and being taken to limbo to power some kind of contraption. I haven't read the story in ages (and don't even own it because I sold all my DC's to buy more X-Men when I was around 12! ), but I loved the way it showcased all the heroes and made the SSoSV look so effective and dangerous. It was also my intro to the Ultra-Humanite, and I've yet to be as impressed with any successive appearance I've seen of the character.

I picked up JLA for a few issues there and continued thru 200 which was a callback to the JLA origin story. Perez was involved with that one also, and I recall it pitted a mind-controlled (or something) Big 7 against the nextgen JLAers like Ollie, Dinah and Firestorm. It was a fun story and let you know a lot about the JLA and their history in the process.

The second was the classic Seven Soldiers of Victory story that I discovered reprinted in any one of the numerous reprint digests DC used to put out. (It was thru those digests that I became educated on the Legion's background from the beginning even as I became enthralled by Levitz and Giffen's Legion as it came out fresh.) It was a perfect example of a team-up story done right. And the revelation of a (admittedly minor) character's death as the mystery unravelled was a novelty for me as a young comic reader unaccustomed to seeing heroes die (those were the days ). Nice story just bursting with rich DC history!

I also read that Santa Claus story in one of those digests. I remember a lot of the details, like the Key and John Stewart, etc., but I can't remember for the life of me what the outcome was! I guess the Key killed the guy?!?!

Anyhow, that's just about ALL that stands out for me about any JLA in my spotty reading history before Giffen, DeMatteis and Maguire came aboard.
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
My two favorite JLA stories are the first two volumes of Grant's run, with the Hyperclan, the Key, and Zauriel's first appearance.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
Lardi, I didn't overlook the post, I just felt that this thread should stay focused on the JLA, especially since JLA-super-fan Blacula hasn't shared his thoughts yet.

Glad to hear you like # 200 and the Seven Soldiers of Victory/JLA/JSA team-up, as I like them too. Have you read the recent JLA 80-Page Special? At first I felt it was too much of a rehash of 7SoV/JLA/JSA, but after discussing it with Cobie in the JLA ongoing thread, I've come to feel that even it's a ripoff, at least it rips off a really good story.

And seeing as you mentioned # 200 and the JLA/JSA vs. SSoSV story, a couple other stories from the Gerry Conway/George Perez era -- the JLA/JSA/New Gods team-up* and the Origin of Red Tornado -- are both in my JLA Top 40.


*Can't forget to mention that the first chapter was Dick Dillin's final JLA issue (R.I.P.)
 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
I loved the Origin of Red Tornado story,I remember Firestorm(Ronnie)playing a big part in it.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
Lardi, I didn't overlook the post, I just felt that this thread should stay focused on the JLA, especially since JLA-super-fan Blacula hasn't shared his thoughts yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lardi the Incorruptible:
Interestingly enough, as big of a DC guy as I am, I haven't really had the most extensive JLA experience on my resume. The only two eras that I bought the title longterm were during the JLI Giffen/DeMatteis era and the Morrison/Porter run.

Why the JLA hasn't pulled me in consistently is difficult to nail down, but generally (with the above two exceptions) I'd say that JLA often just didn't seem to matter as a title within the larger DCU. It was often just an excuse to put the biggest draws in the DCU into one title with what seemed very little of consequence happening in and of itself. Obviously, there are exceptions, particularly the importance of the JSA crossovers to the DCU's mythology, but there's usually the sense that if you skip JLA you aren't really missing anything. More often than not, what happens in JLA is never even referenced in, say, Batman's books or Superman's books.

If you compare JLA to Marvel's Avengers, I'd say there's a big difference. In my opinion the Avengers has always told stories that mattered and that have become iconic. Obviously, some eras are better regarded than others, but nearly every incarnation has at least yielded something memorable.

I'd say the difference is founded in leeway with character development. Usually, the JLA is stocked with the "Big Guns" who can only be players in the story and can't have really life-changing things happen to them when that's being saved for their own titles.

Avengers at its best mixes their Big Guns with more secondary characters like Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Beast, Wasp, Hank Pym, etc. who can't support their own titles and provide awesome subplot-dovetailing-to-uberplot fodder for character development. Hell, even Thor, Iron Man and Cap tend to have moments and events happen in the Avengers comic that are reflected in their own books or at least enhance their characters with superb roleplaying.

The JLI era got around the usual JLA limitation by predominantly featuring second, third and fourth-tier characters who were late of their own cancelled series or had never had one of their own. Giffen and DeMatteis could do whatever the hell they wanted with them and chose to use that power to work on giving them all distinct personalities. It was a fun, unique experience that had me coming back every month first and foremost to see what these characters would be up to. And when they did use characters like Batman, they used them wisely and gave us priceless moments like his "one punch" of Guy Gardner and his mission "disguised" as Bruce Wayne.

I loved the JLI era a lot and let my then-girlfriend/future-wife borrow the early issues because I knew she would enjoy the humor. I do think it became severely diluted and began to slowly die with Kevin Maguire's departure and the arrival of JLE. Even then, it had its moments and will always be remembered fondly by me.

Morrison fully embraced the Big Guns philosophy and proved that in the hands of a talented enough writer, that approach could definitely work. The Shit was constantly hitting the fan, and Morrison knew how to throw big, impressive threats at these characters, enough to keep readers hanging by the edges of their seats.

Interspersed in Morrison's run were takes on the icons that were very influential. Foremost was Batman as The Man! Never had Batman seemed more badass, even as a normal human among people with godlike powers. For once a take on an icon in the JLA book actually influenced the main books! Of course, many would say that that has been taken too far over the intervening years. But for better or worse, it really mattered, and that was something that JLA rarely did.

As impressive as Morrison was, his stuff did feel distant for me and left me a little cold. There was so much BIG! STORY! going on that I feel Morrison didn't really take the time to emotionally invest readers in the characters. The Tomorrow Woman story was a nice exception, but overall the emotional impact of the adventures was negligible. But the quality of stories was always high and worth your hard-earned money.

I'll post more on JLA soon and highlight some particular stories from other eras and maybe hit these two a little more...

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Originally posted by Stealth:
For example, Captain Atom, visually striking and powerful enough to compete with the Big Guns if written right, was instead played as a complete idiot. This probably also hurt his (IMO underrated) solo book, which surely was counter-productive to DC's unstated goal of using the JLA to promote characters and elevate them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:

2: GLC I put this on my faves list because Kyle Rayner is in it, and he's a favourite character. If he left the book, so would I.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MLLASH:
The Giffen/DeMatties/Maguire era has to rule as my favorite of JLA eras.

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Care to elaborate, Lash? (this thread's kinda ALL about elaborating! )
 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Set:
Other heroes that, IMO, suffered from campy or one-note characterization include powerhouse Martian Manhunter (who's like a shapeshifting Superman with a dash of Phoenix!)... Guy Gardner, who was always an unlikable ass, was the only character that felt like he was being portrayed correctly.

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Okay, what was wrong with J'Onn's JLI-era characterisation? Seriously, I don't see that he was particularly "campy or one-note" at any point.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Neither do I. In fact, he was probably fleshed out more in JLI than his entire 30 years of prior history at that point. He had been a one note character in his original Detective appearances and JLA appearances from the 50's all the way until JLDetroit, and it only then that we really learned anything about him. JLI took some of that and really expanded on it. The run provided some more in depth underestanding of some of his well-known aspects today: the sense of isolation; a tender-caring fatherly approach to several of the less powerful and newer JLAers; the "heart and soul of the JLA" idea; the enjoyment he takes in humanity's quirks, including people's sense of humor (and his attempts to understand it).
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
Here's what I remember of the JLI's characterizations throughout the issues I read, and I certainly didn't read the entire run;

Booster and Beetle hung out together and were comic relief, not interacting as much with the others.

Fire and Ice hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.

Mister Miracle and Big Barda hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.

Martian Manhunter went off by himself a lot, avoiding the others, and expressing bewilderment or even exasperation (I remember this as the era of 'short-tempered J'Onn') at their antics and shenanigans.

Guy Gardner antagonized everyone, including the normally unflappable Captain Marvel and J'Onn.

Captain Marvel seemed utterly clueless, and the butt of Gardner's snarky cracks, like Billy Batson wearing his dad's clothes and not at all like a supremely confident elder statesman among heroes with the 'wisdom of Solomon.'

Doctor Light seemed to hold most of the rest of the team in contempt, and the feeling seemed to be returned.

Red Rocket was comic relief, being a stange pastiche of a bad Russian cliche (like Chekov, but even more over the top) and a drunken Irishman, until he died and stopped being funny.

With the factions of Booster/Beetle, Miracle/Barda and Fire/Ice, and a bunch of other moody 'don't play well with others' sorts, alongside a perplexed Captain Marvel, it felt more like Justice League: 90210, full of bitchy cliques that didn't much like each other, than a superhero team.

I don't remember really well (since all of those comics got sold off years ago during a house-moving / 'everything must go' spree), but I believe that this era was the one that turned Captain Atom from a likable character in his own book into an overbearing jerk in the Justice League.

The only character that I think got boosted by her appearance would be the Black Canary, who finally was portrayed as a confident senior League veteran (who also came across as a bit flummoxed by the shenanigans of the newbies, IIRC), and not as 'Green Arrow's crimefighting appendage.'
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
And welcome back to the Roundtable!

Now, forgive me if this topic starts sounding more like "Lardy's Soapbox" than a Roundtable, but I hope it'll lead to some stimulating conversation as a jumping-off point. Here goes:

I have kind of a Reverse-Cobie thing going on with my comics experience. While Cobie has been openly expressing his discontent with DC's creative direction of late, I've generally been enjoying DC's stuff (or what I read of it) quite a bit lately. On the other hand, Marvel has been generally leaving me cold lately. So cold that I'm seriously considering dropping pretty much every Marvel title from my pull list! Why? (time for a numbered list of reasons--YAY!)

1) The $3.99 price point is being pushed down our throats pretty much without any perks. I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again--love or hate DC's extra features, at least all of their $3.99 books have extra content for your extra buck. Very few of Marvel's do. Plus, they've pretty much foregone launching any new books or miniseries at the $2.99 price. All those new Avengers books coming this summer? All $3.99.

It's not that I refuse to buy any comic for $3.99 with normal content. It's just that Marvel's way of doing it is really pissing me off. I respect DC's handling of it. They could easily take Marvel's route here, but they're not. Heck, they're even dropping the extra dollar on titles when the co-feature leaves! Eventually, I know they'll all go up, too, but I appreciate what DC's approach has been.

2) I know it's all apparently ending now, but Dark Reign was a HUGE turn-off for me. Love or hate DC's recent big events, their storylines didn't absolutely permeate their entire line MORE THAN ONE WHOLE DAMN YEAR!!! Blackest Night may have seemed all-encompassing, but its tie-ins were mostly in either self-contained minis, the two GL books and a handful of books that could really use the sales boost. Absolutely NO intrusion on such great runs as JMS's B&B, Rucka & William's Batwoman, Morrison's Batman and Robin, Superman's New Krypton storyline, etc.

If you couldn't give a crap about Norman Osborne, HAMMER and all of that wretched storyline, well Marvel said, "Tough shit, bitch! Eat it!" At this point, I don't CARE that it's finally coming to a close. I checked out long ago!

3) The cancelling/relaunching of too many of my favorites. Iron Fist was a huge loss. Hercules is ending (yeah, there's a follow-up with Amadeus Cho). Nova and the Guardians of the Galaxy are apparently going on "hiatus" during the upcoming "Thanos Imperative" event (even money says if those books are relaunched afterward, they'll be $3.99). X-Factor's about to be forced back into whatever asinine X-over's going on.

The past two years I've gravitated towards the few books that didn't seem enslaved by Marvel's editorial imperatives. Slowly but surely, each of those are being pulled from under my nose.

4) I'm losing interest in some books that have been "old reliables" for me. Cap and Daredevil come readily to mind.

With Cap I think Ed Brubaker's running out of steam. Cap Reborn was really pretty underwhelming for such a 'big event'. And the issues since the numbering resumed? Blech! This "Two Americas" storyline's gotta be the biggest stinker by a MILE in Ed's resume. And the Nomad backup (which despite at least being one of Marvel's few attempts to give you something for the extra dollar) is pretty crappy and, tonally, is an awkward complement to the main feature.

Daredevil? After a promising start to Diggle's run, DD's going nowhere fast. The direction of DD crossing morally shady eras was filled with promise, but so far, Diggle's taking the path of least resistance in his approach. A lot of safe choices, I'd say. And this is a slooooow moving tale, which will only get slower as DD's going bi-monthly for awhile. Sorry, but I'm unlikely to be patient with it, despite some terrific artwork.


So here I am on the precipice of telling my comic book guy to dump virtually everything. The only things I'm a lock to keep getting are Brubaker's Criminal and Incognito series. I'll also likely finish out the current Punisher Max arc and maybe beyond with the solid creative team of Jason Aarons and Steve Dillon. Everything else may be expendable. If I push the button, I'll get only the occasional Marvel trade or back issue--secondhand and for below retail if at all possible so as not to benefit Marvel directly from my purchases.

What would I do with the money not spent on Marvel's? Well, I doubt I'll buy less comics! Instead, it'll free up my budget to buy more DC's, more Vertigos and to sample and discover new indie comics!

Thoughts on any or all of my points? Facing similar or different crises in your comics-reading habits? Perfectly happy with everything?

Well, let the Roundtable spin!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I'll engage in the conversation though I know you kind of know where I stand (and hope others weigh in as well).

A couple of comments:

- Absolutely no defense for $3.99. That's just plain annoying.

- All those books that got canceled or are on hiatus (which I also love) are from sales, not because of editorial edicts. I wish fandom would wake up and buy them too.

- I posted elsewhere that I thought Siege is better than Blackest Night. I stand by that. Now, I don't think either was the greatest thing ever, however, neither was that bad. But Blackest Night could have been told in 4 issues considering the entire middle seemed to go at a snails place without an iota of character moments (and to steal one of your phrases, was "Geoff Johns porn"). Siege at least is a pure 4 issue extravangza--every page has something for it. Plus the emotional impact we were supposed to have felt close to worthless to me (two scenes notwithstanding) because all of DC's crap these past few years have desensitized me to it.

- New Avengers is better than any single DC superhero team out there right now. The only one coming close is Doom Patrol but its not there yet. And New Avengers is by no means my favorite Marvel Comic. But it gets a bad rap and I figured I'd make at least one statement to anger *someone*.

- I think right now, Marvel is a better company than DC. I'm glad they beat them sales-wise because DC doesn't deserve to be #1. I like a ton of DC titles and I dislike several Marvel titles, but when it gets right down to it, the only company that is inciting my ire on a weekly basis is DC Comics and here are my reasons: Outsiders, Teen Titans, Titans, JSA & All-Stars, Power Girl, Magog, Cry for Justice. Lian Harper. DAN DIDIO.

Marvel is no saint by any means. And in fact, I think the Vertigo offices of DC, Image Comics, Dark Horse and Dynamite are all much more respectable comic book companies more inclined to acquiesce to some real creative integrity without being beholden to shareholders and larger corporate motives. However, Marvel is at least trying and in many places succeeding.

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Now, all that being said, the Marvel vs. DC thing isn't really all that important to me. A few months ago, when I was at my lowest in terms of caring about comic books, He Who Wanders told me to just start finding comics I liked in other places and find some real enjoyment in this hobby again. And I did. So I say, if you don't like 'em, drop 'em . Buy more Vertigo. Buy more Image, Dynamite, Boom!, Dark Horse and IDW. There are a ton of great comics out there. And there are a ton of great collections being turned into TPBs.

We, the consumer, don't owe the industry anything. They dug this whole they're in themselves and if the whole thing burns down, it shouldn't be use left holding the bag. We don't owe anyone anything by supporting monthly sales if they won't give us a product to believe in. So take your exra $$ and spend it on one of IDW's colletions of some 80's indie thing that sparked your interest. Whatever you review--I'll be here to comment and I can be convinced to buy anything.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Obviously, Des, I knew a bit what your views would be as I labelled myself the "Reverse-Cobie" from the outset. But it's nice to see you put them into words, nonetheless.

Like yourself and your qualifying of your praise for Marvel with certain reservations, I feel similarly with regard to DC. I freely admit that DC has LOTS of issues that need to be addressed. However, it just comes down to the fact that I'm simply not enjoying most of the Marvel books I'm buying while I am most certainly enjoying most that I'm buying from DC.

The key word here is "buying". I'm not (or no longer am) buying any of those DC titles you mentioned. And if none of them are up to snuff, I'm not losing one iota of sleep over it. JSA hurt a little bit to let go of, but once I made the decision to, I felt fine. After only a couple of months, I'm not even compelled to flip thru them any more.

On the other hand I'm suddenly struck by how I'm just suddenly disinterested in Marvel's universe. In hindsight it's not really that sudden, but the being struck was sudden and hit me all at once. It just hit me that either I'm not crazy about any Marvels I'm reading, or the ones that I am crazy about are all getting the can simultaneously! That's just too damn much money wasted on stuff that's not doing it for me at all! Meanwhile, there's all kinds of interesting projects popping up at DC and various indies that have me itching to buy them. I certainly can't afford to spend any more on comics, so something's gotta give.....

Seriously, I doubt I'll cut every single Marvel title out, but it'll probably coming down to less than five.

And as for team books, yeah, DC's are most certainly a mess. But DP is improving all the time as you say, REBELS is still highly entertaining and I'm optimistic that the new Legion series will be the best it's been in a long time. But I ain't sinkin' my funds into those Avengers books! Maybe I'll get the trades if they're wildly positively reviewed, but no floppies for yours truly there.

And I wasn't comparing Blackest Night to Siege directly (especially since I haven't read any of Siege), but more to Dark Reign. BN had a LOT of tie-ins, but at the same time, it only invaded the monthlies fairly minimally. As I said, it was only sales-challenged books that got direct tie-ins. At Marvel you couldn't hardly turn a page in a monthly without seeing Norman Osborne looking back at you. I know it benefits their shared universe concept and over-arching storylines, but for me it ruined and caused me to drop books that I had formerly been enjoying, such as Iron Man.

(By the way, Des, I'm curious to hear what you think of Brubaker's more recent Cap stories and whether you agree or disagree and to what extent. DD to, to a lesser degree.)
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
I'm not going to be buying anymore regular sized $4 comic books. Just ain't gonna do it. And The $4 comics I do buy from DC are about to become fewer. I just this week put ADVENTURE # 10 back on the shelf and may drop JSA ALL-STARS. TEEN TITANS I already axed from my pull. The prices are out of control.

I *did* just pay $5 for the SHE-HULK SENSATIONAL 1-Shot, but that book is pretty thick.

I'm reading very few MARVELS regularly at present already: Mighty Avengers, GotGalaxy, New Mutants-- the second they hit $4, I'm out.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
I am most definitely a very fickle comic book reader. If a title goes on a dud spree for at most two issues I've dropped it and am complaining to everyone who will listen (mainly you guys! ) about how it's the worst comic in the world, and so on.

Often, on a nostalgia kick, I might pick up the issues I missed a few months down the line and find I really enjoyed them (case in point - the last few issues of Detective Comics).

So I guess my point is, all comics have bad periods - the question is how willing you are to ride those periods out? (Because, in the case of the Teen Titans franchise, you will have been riding it for a looooooooonnng time.)

On the other hand, I have dropped a whole bunch of franchises over the last few years and am extremely happy (and richer) for having done so. The JLA, JSA, Titans, Outsiders - I became the DC fan(atic) I am thanks to their team-books (especially the first three on that list) and once upon a time it would have been unfathomable to me to not have any of those books on my pull. But reading them became more aggravating than enjoyable and now I barely even care about them. Comics should be !FUN! (especially at these prices!) and if you're not experiencing that sensation from them Lard Lad then I wholeheartedly recommend that you ditch the ones you're not enjoying and try something new.

There's always back-issues if you feel you've missed out on something.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
I look over the Marvel rack every week, and every week I see nothing that I want to spend money on. DC is getting most of my money...but it' not like I spend a ton.

Image gets some as well, and to be honest, the books I get from Image are my favorite.

I enjoyed Blackest Night. I enjoyed the ring promo, and tried a few books in the process. Didn't stick with them (although The Bug has gotten me back to Doom Patrol.) DC happens to house most of my favorites. Flash, Legion, Green Lantern. Flash and GL I have been enjoying, and LSH has kept me interested enough (barely) to keep with this dumb crossover. B&tB is an awesome title.

Spider Man, arguably a tie for favorite character of all time, is not a book I will support after what KJMS and Joey Q (mostly JQ) did to him. Started with the Gwen Stacey thing and finally just really lost me as a fan with One More Day. I just cannot care what happened after that (and I know there have been some good stories thanks to the library) I just cannot support that.

Another issue I do have with Marvel is that it is now BMB personal playground. He and JQ are running things the way they want to. Multi year storylines that link with the next, and affect the entire universe. Geoff does something a bit like that at DC (His GL stories...although those only really were told in his book and GLC, which led into Blackest Night and now into Brightest Day), and Didio has a stranglehold on things, but Robinson says he got the editors to agree to only destroy Star City (I believe him, if Dwayne M. is to be believed...the editorial mandates on JLA drove him from the book.)

The thing is, at DC you also have Morrison, Dini, Giffen and others that play in the sandbox. Blackest Knight may have been a _universe changer), but it brought back titles with Brightest Day. I read about everything that is happening iin Marvel and DC...I cannot name anyone except maybe DnA (with the space titles) except those two who are doig big things there.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I’ll add in a couple of specifics to follow up with what I said and other’s comments:

- I did forget about REBELS when I said New Avengers was better than all DC team books, but I still think New Avengers is probably a better comic—but only slightly. REBELS is actually pretty good. But it says something that I always forget about it. It needs to take things up another notch. Certainly still worthy of collecting though.

- You mention Daredevil, Lardy, and my thoughts no recent issues. Like you, I tend to get a good 2-3 months behind in my reading sometimes and that's where I am with DD. I think I haven't even brought home the last two issues from the CBS yet, so I really can't give an up to date assessment. I know where I left off I was really enjoying the hell out of the comic and considered it still a 'must-read'.

- I am quite enjoying Captain America, much more so than yourself and Reboot, who I know were liking the title but not pleased with recent events. I do recognize Captain America: Reborn was not as up to snuff as the regular Cap title, but I actually like Hitch's art so I didn't mind it as much. I also like "Two Americas", which I think is a way for Bru to write a strait-up Bucky/Falcon story that is relevant to current events in the US. My one complaint is its run about one issue too long. I'm looking forward to the "Heroic Age" storyline coming next.

- Some more specific comics from Marvel I've really enjoyed that you may or may not collect are the Hulk/Incredible Hulk/Red Hulk comics. I know that's asking a real lot of a reader to buy three titles (there is a fourth, She-Hulks or something that I'm not buying). But I actually think this is the most fun crossover I've read in a long time. See the thread for my, Reboot and Mystery Lad's thoughts. It's not perfect but every issue was certainly worth purchasing.

- I'm also saddened by the cancellation / hiatus / restart status of several titles, like Incredible Hercules, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy and Agents of Atlas. I hope AoA's restart takes off because I liked the title, I hope Nova and GotG come back soon because I think both are EXCELLENT and I actually like the recent developments in Herc and think that was a very bold move, so I want to follow-up where Amadaus goes. One title I'm really disappointed in the cancellation is Spider-Woman which I felt was in the 'top 5 best Marvel titles' category. It was really freaking good! But that stupid web motion-comic--which are so incredibly lame to begin with--burnt out Maleev.

Basically, I can see your point about Norman Osborn being in so many titles. No argument here, it was annoying as hell and I'm thrilled its over. I hope Iron Man can get back on track because I've stuck it out. I think the recent storyline was an improvement. Thor also maintained a high level of quality despite being dragged into it for 2 or so issues.

I know I'm enjoying tons of Spider-Man stories these days, while some not so much, but I hardly can muster the energy to recommend someone collect Spider-Man if they're totally against the no-marriage continuity. That argument I leave to Marvel, not me.

The X-Men books are crap these days and the only one that is keeping things interesting is New Mutants. Even X-Factor has been feeling lame for awhile, and the new storyline seemed like a good step in the right direction but faltered pretty quickly for me.

So--that's where I am on several Marvel titles though I'm not sure if I was had a point to make or not.

I just feel like DC's "crimes" have been far worse than Marvel. Whereas, I can give a Marvel comic a 'quiet drop' for not being up to snuff, I actually am so outraged by the lack of quality and editorially direction from DC that I feel not only must I drop the comic book, I have to come here to Legion World and vociferously inflict over the top criticisms against the company.

The inverse of that is that while I feel DC gets it right some times (Brave and Bold, etc.), Marvel more often gets it right than DC does (Nova, GotG, Cap, Daredevil, etc.). The strategy for most of us is to cherry-pick the best stuff and when we accidently buy something we didn't like, or something we collect turns to shit, its our duty to lambast those sons of bitches that did it
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dev Em:
The thing is, at DC you also have Morrison, Dini, Giffen and others that play in the sandbox. Blackest Knight may have been a _universe changer), but it brought back titles with Brightest Day. I read about everything that is happening iin Marvel and DC...I cannot name anyone except maybe DnA (with the space titles) except those two who are doig big things there.

Just my 2 cents.

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Just to give a flip side:

Fred Van Lente, Greg Pak, Jeff Parker.

Those three guys are doing such good work at Marvel, that everything they do these days is BETTER than what Keith Giffen and Paul Dini are doing. I stand by that 100%.

Morrison is one of my favorites but I admit most of his recent DC stuff isn't thrilling me. Not like it was when All-Star Superman and Batman were coming out a few years ago.

Rucka obviously left DC because he can't stand them anymore.

One of DC's best writers besides Geoff (who has his major faults just like BMB does--I find anyone who says Geoff is clearly better to cleary be jaded), is Pete Tomasi.

But, in the pursuit of giving specifics, I feel like I'm maybe splitting hairs. But hey, that's what the Roundtable is for, right?
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
In a way my argument can be boiled down to BMB vs. Geoff Johns! If a reader has a clear preference between the two writers, then that almost makes the choice between DC and Marvel clear since each writer is obviously the major influence in creative direction at his respective company.

I'd say at this point that BMB's influence is the more pervasive of the two at this point, however, since he has been both a star and entrenched at his company for a longer period of time than Geoff has at DC. Even then, BMB's influence doesn't really stretch very much into, say, the X-titles or the cosmic titles very much. But every event has steamrolled from his Avengers family and peaked with the recent Dark Reign in such a way as to make his storyline fingers be felt more and more. Books like Captain America and Daredevil were among those that mostly had a certain autonomy about them for a long time but eventually fell under the lengthening BMB shadow.

And BMB's shadow can be very dark! As dark as some of Geoff's stories have been at times, they pale in comparison with what Bendis has directly wrought with his vivisection of the Avengers, starting with Disassembled. He took a venerable franchise and decided to tear it down and remake it in his own image.

Bendis has always had a preference for darker, edgier stories, and he really ran with it in his emergence into the Avengers. That style worked very well with his work on Daredevil, Alias and his creator-owned Powers. I contend it never felt right on Avengers and his spin-offs of it. I have doubts that he can pull off a virtual 180 from that approach in the so-called "Heroic Age" upcoming. (This despite the fact that I think his more upbeat and traditional work on Ultimate Spidey has always been terrific.)

Geoff, on the other hand, has always had as his trademark the ability to dissect and restore what it is we like about the characters he takes on while also making them seem fresh at the same time. His work on the Green Lantern franchise doing this is obviously second to none, but he also worked wonders on JSA for a long time, gave Booster Gold a shot in the arm, told some great Superman stories and has done some remarkable work on the Flash franchise that is now entering a second run featuring Barry Allen.

So where Bendis darkens...Geoff lightens up? I don't know if it's that simple. It's not like my comics have to be optimistic and upbeat all the time, but ultimately I think our mainstream superhero icons are supposed to be a lot more about hope than fear (to use a corny GL spectrum analogy). And Geoff's titles certainly seem a lot more heroic than Bendis's.

Clearly, I prefer Geoff Johns' approach more than BMB's. I'm not a Bendis hater by any means, having enjoyed his Daredevil, Ultimate Spidey, Alias and the earlier Powers issues. But anything I've read by him at Marvel in the Avengers titles has been abyssmal. And it's those storylines that infect the other titles I would ordinarily like to such a degree that I feel I have to drop them.

There's PLENTY wrong at DC, I agree. But ultimately, I'm enjoying or looking forward to a LOT more of DC's titles than Marvel's. And Bendis v. Johns kinda sums up my core issue with the creative part of my dissatisfaction, at least.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I've said my piece and will let others comment but to continue the conversation in a related direction, one could make the arguement that your definition of the Marvel/DC difference in regards to Geoff and Bendis has always been this way.

DC traditionally had shiny superheroes that were "brighter". And Marvel has traditionally had flawed superheroes laden with tragedy. This was the case in the Silver Age when Marvel defined itself as a company and being distinctly different from DC.

Still, I don't quite agree that the DCU is "lighter". Geoff's stories add a level of violence to them that most Marvel comics don't come close to. Its one of the complaints brought up against Geoff a lot and its true his comics are uber-violent.

I don't think Bendis has more say at Marvel than Geoff does at DC. Bendis is just a writer. Geoff is like a co-EIC now; he also has spareheaded almost all of the major crossovers of the last few years: Infinite Crisis, Sinesto Corps War, Blackest Night; and he was 1/4 of 52. If anything, I think Geoff has more say than Bendis.

Personally, I think Geoff is a shining light at DC and wish he could have more veto-power over many of the editors.

I also think Bendis is doing some tremendous material. I'm an old school Avengers fan too but frankly--its time other old school Avengers fans let it go. Bendis writing Disassembled was one of the best things to happen to the franchise in years. I'm thrilled Bendis has so much control at Marvel and hope it continues. Daredevil, Spider-Woman, Ultimate Spidey and Alias have all been excellent. And his New Avengers--which admittingly has had its ups and downs--has largely been pretty good. Certainly much better than Chuck Austen, Geoff Johns, and most of Busiek's run--the entire decade preceding him.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I've said my piece and will let others comment but to continue the conversation in a related direction, one could make the arguement that your definition of the Marvel/DC difference in regards to Geoff and Bendis has always been this way.

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That definitely occurred to me, and I meant to include it somewhere in the last post. Marvel's long been a lot grittier in its approach than DC has. Kurt Busiek kinda highlighted that in his Avengers/JLA series rather well, I thought. But the grittiness was usually in certain titles and less so in others.

The Avengers line was one of the more "upbeat" franchises at Marvel throughout most of its history, as opposed to, say, X-Men. In my mind Bendis has been trying to bring some of that X-Men grit over to the Avengers franchise to increase it's popularity. Admittedly, that approach has worked to achieve the desired sales goal, but at what price? I gave up on the X-books a long time ago for the same reason, so now I can't turn to the Avengers anymore for some 'comfort food'?

Oh, Geoff definitely has more than his share of violence in his stories. But even so, it doesn't somehow seem to pervade the mood of the pieces he does, for the most part. It's difficult to explain. I mean, you see the Hawk's die horribly in BN #1, but in #8 you get a beautifully moving scene that kinda wipes it away and cleans the palette. Yes, this is the same man who gave us the villainous Superboy Prime (and Infinite Crisis pretty much sucked), but so much of the work has been uplifting of the characters and franchises he touches that it's that stuff that tends to stay with me more.

And, well, Bendis has been on point with all of Marvel's big crossovers as much as Geoff, so I don't see that argument at all. Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Seige are all his storylines. And though he didn't write Civil War, I'm sure he was at least helping to pull the strings given how closely his franchise tied into it.

Geoff is now literally an executive with DC, but htat's only as of a few months ago. Unfortunately, it looks like his position has more to do with helping develop the movies and what-not if I understand correctly. Certainly, someone needs to step up and clean up the mess that the Titans, JSA and others have devolved into.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
The greatest thing that could ever happen to DC is if Geoff never needed to sleep again. Then he could keep writing all his current titles plus Teen Titans and JSA and some others.

Generally Geoff-DC titles are the best the Company has. Its when lesser writers try to channel what Geoff is doing that there is an epic fail.

One complaint I have though recently for Geoff's stuff is it feels like none of his titles can stand on their own. They're all too inter-connected with one another with constant tie-ins and guest stars. That stuff can be cool when done judiciously, but these days it feels like nothing can stand on its own two feet with using other characters as a crunch. I know that's not the case but I need to see it again.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Piping in to say, you guys are making brilliant observations and I'm enjoying the heck out of it. I think Geoff came into DC with a small cadre of like-minded individuals like Gail Simone and Phil Jiminez (where IS he lately??) that knew how to please fanboys because they WERE such big DC fans. Can't really comment on BMB as I don't read his stuff.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Lash, I think me and Cobie are a little afraid of this conversation boiling down to Lardy/Cobie point/counterpoint, but I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'd be curious to hear what more you can say about DC's "like-minded individuals" and what exactly it is you think they bring to the table, though, if you'd care to. Whether or not you have any BMB perspective, I think you could add a lot to that side of the issue. Please do!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Yeah, I especially want to hear what DC and Marvel writers Lash and others are enjoying besides Geoff and Bendis.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Gail: Bringing in Nightwind and Infectious Lass at the tail-end of the reboot era, a pure fangirl move that I loved her for. Knowing how to take a character everyone had given up on-- Catman-- and making him a star? She did this. See also: Geoff Johns.

Phil: His plot for Team Titans (I've seen this on the web) involved bringing Duela Dent firmly back into continuity. Along with Devin Grayson, this was finally accomplished in JLA/Titans. 100% pure fanboyism. HIs run on Womder Woman introduced Wonder Boy-- 200% pure fanboyism here.

Geoff Johns is, however, the undisputed King of this talent-- he KNOWS, as Cobie states above, how to make the characters we already know and love relevant again, and also-- much in his favor-- does so without completely destroying what has come in the time since (Teen Titans, Hawkman, JSA, Booster Gold etc etc etc).

There may me more examples of this from other creators at DC since but these are the ones I have/had primary contact with.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
THE DEVIL'S DUE DEPT:

John Byrne, of all people, also had a major hand in restoring JSA to greatness-- he re-inserted the Golden-age Womder Woman (as Hippolyta) back into continuity.

This was one of the very few things he's done that I haven't hated since the 80s. I believe Johns and co. took this example and ran with it when they came into power.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
My take on other DC writers:

I think bringing in Tony Bedard is a large feather in DC's cap. With him coming on GLC, just wait, he's gonna slowly balloon up to Geoff-size proportions. He's long been an underrated writer, but he's finally gonna get his due!

Bringing Paul Cornell in from Marvel is a potentially big, big move for DC as well as he moves in on Action Comics as well. Marvel never seemed to know what to do with him, but I think he will get his due at DC.

Tomasi's a big talent, for sure. He needs something more high profile and out of Geoff's sandbox to properly get the attention he deserves. I know he's got a new Guy Gardner book coming up, but I'd like to see him more outside his comfort zone but more on the radar than The Mighty was.

JMS has obviously done a bang-up job on B&B. Now to see how he will do with two high profile books added to his plate. I'm really excited about him writing Superman and may actually give his WW a try, both based largely on how refreshed his work has been on B&B.

Giffen's stuff on Doom Patrol is getting better and better all the time. While Magog may very well be a flop, DP is showing he's got what it takes. If he can find other projects that are as inspired, his creativity is potentially limitless.

I'm hot and cold with Grant Morrison, but there's no doubt the man has more imagination in his left pinky than most other writers have in their lifetimes!

Dan Jurgens has kind of an old-school writing style, but it ages pretty well. I'm thrilled he will be doing a follow-up mini to his excellent Booster Gold work and hope we'll get plenty more after that.

Gail Simone has made me a huge fan with her work on Secret Six. I'm definitely getting Birds of Prey! I can tell Gail likes her books to be a little more on the fringes of the DC universe, but I wish she'd take a crack at at least one of DC's flailing titles. (I bet she could do something with Titans) She's probably DC's freshest voice at this point.

Those are the best off the top of my head. Otherwise: J.T. Krul has some potential and could make the leap, given the right project. Winick--he's gotta go! I'm hearing good things (surprisingly) about Tony Daniel as a writer/artist. Paul Dini--none of his comics work has really grabbed me, surprisingly. James Robinson has shown the occasional sign of his earlier talent, but has mostly disappointed.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Thanks for bringing up Giffen, Lardi-- I adore the man and his skills, but I'm very much in the camp of belief that he does his best work with co-writers (JL, LSH, Ambush Bug, Heckler).

DOOM PATROL may just be the title to disprove this theory.... it has continually gottem better and better. I bet Keith is held in VERY high regard by Geoff, Gail and their group.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I agree that Bedard is a seriously under-rated writer. I've said it a million times but his Negation series by Crossgen was just about one of the best sci-fi comic books I've EVER read. Where he excels is he can take a group of characters and create this sense of tension between them (even if they're all allies) that makes the forward motion of the plot seem so seemless. He also writes "weird situations" really well and how people react to them.

I'm of course a huge Gail fan and buy all her titles.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MLLASH:
Thanks for bringing up Giffen, Lardi-- I adore the man and his skills, but I'm very much in the camp of belief that he does his best work with co-writers (JL, LSH, Ambush Bug, Heckler).

DOOM PATROL may just be the title to disprove this theory.... it has continually gottem better and better. I bet Keith is held in VERY high regard by Geoff, Gail and their group.

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Yes, DP is suprisingly good for that very reason (meaning his not having a co-writer)!

Other honorable mentions at DC are Sterling Gates of Supergirl and Bryan Q. Miller of Batgirl. Both have done sterling work on those titles. It remains to be seen how good they'll be outside those titles.

And of course Paul Levitz's impending return has me just the teensiest bit excited--especially considering what property he's returning to!

I haven't read a whole lot of GrayPal, but they certainly have quite the following on their various projects.

Hey! That's a whole lotta good writers not named Geoff Johns, huh?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Agree about Keith on DP. My comments on that thread go into detail about why I think he's doing such a good job there.

Graypal do a great job on Jonah Hex but there other works these days are not doing it for me at all.

Warlord--which is basically like a creator-owned title--is very well done by Mike Grell.

Tony Daniel is not working for me at all on Batman.

I've thought Dan Jurgens has done a really great job on Booster Gold and both his writing and artwork have reclaimed their place of greatness because of it. I think Booster under Jurgens has been better than Booster under Geoff.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Warlord--which is basically like a creator-owned title--is very well done by Mike Grell.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Tony Daniel is not working for me at all on Batman.

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I haven't read a bit of Daniel's run on Batman (though I read his crappy Battle for the Cowl), but it's consistently getting decent reviews on CBR, a site that gives me very reliable reviews typically.

quote:

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I've thought Dan Jurgens has done a really great job on Booster Gold and both his writing and artwork have reclaimed their place of greatness because of it. I think Booster under Jurgens has been better than Booster under Geoff.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
Geoff Johns - as much as I love his work most of the time, CK's suggestion of him skipping sleep and writing every book at DC gives me nightmares! I like variety in my books and Johns has a very samey formula to all the stories he tells, and as enjoyable as that formula often is, it can get kinda boring if you read a bunch of his books in a row.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:

quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
Geoff Johns - as much as I love his work most of the time, CK's suggestion of him skipping sleep and writing every book at DC gives me nightmares! I like variety in my books and Johns has a very samey formula to all the stories he tells, and as enjoyable as that formula often is, it can get kinda boring if you read a bunch of his books in a row.

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For me, while there was an initial fanboyish appeal to Johns's writing, I found myself bored with his work rather quickly. So much of his stuff basically just consists in making things superficially resemble the way the were X number of years ago [usually late Bronze Age], but with two big differences: 1) the incredibly casual extreme violence tossed in (much of it directed against teenagers/old people); 2) the fact that his storylines in different titles tend to be so inter-connected (as Cobie suggests) that it's difficult to follow them unless you've been reading half DC's titles for the past ten years. The violence would actually be less jarring if the overall mood were grittier, but it seems really out of place with the "retro" feel he seems to be going for so much of the time.

What really bugs me, though, is that while he seems to be really good at playing with continuity, with re-arranging and connecting the pieces, there's a decided lack of genuine inventiveness in his work. So while he's often described as restoring much of DC to its pre-Crisis roots, in a way his stuff is very much the antithesis of the Silver/Bronze Age, which were all about constantly introducing new concepts and new ideas. In this regard, Morrison seems to me much more the heir of the Silver Age than Johns is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
I'd disagree there, Edie. Yes, he's doing something with the spectrum that was ripe for the taking, but the bottom line is no one else thought to go there before! If you can find a way to expand and enrich a hero's mythology without totally trampling on everything that ever went before, I'd say that's pretty inventive. As you say, elements were always there, but he found a really cool way to link them all and add lots of new stuff in the process.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
What really bugs me, though, is that while he seems to be really good at playing with continuity, with re-arranging and connecting the pieces, there's a decided lack of genuine inventiveness in his work. So while he's often described as restoring much of DC to its pre-Crisis roots, in a way his stuff is very much the antithesis of the Silver/Bronze Age, which were all about constantly introducing new concepts and new ideas. In this regard, Morrison seems to me much more the heir of the Silver Age than Johns is.

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Whilst gushing about how much I loved Kurt Busiek's 'back to the basics' stuff over at Marvel (particularly with the Avengers, and his use of older characters in the Thunderbolts), I noted that he got a lot of criticism for the exact same reasons that Johns is getting here.

He seems really good at playing with stuff that other people have dropped, and tying stuff together (the whole Avengers Forever thing could be seen as a parallel to the this Emo Spectrum thing, taking past stuff lying around and tying it all together with a shiny bow), but not so stellar at creating new and exciting things.

A decade after the fact, none of the new characters Busiek created have 'stuck.' Will any of the new characters Johns has created still be around a decade from now? Sure, Sinestro will still be around, but he's hardly a Johns creation...

For all that he's reviled, even Liefield can point to the enduring popularity of Deadpool, almost 20 years later, and say, 'Ha-Ha!'
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Yeah, I'm one of those who enjoyed the HELL outta Busiek's Avengers run (except for that crazy Kang story--WTF?!?), so maybe that informs my comics reading tastes...at least with regards to the big icons. I'm a guy who likes really dark stuff, too, like Walking Dead and a lot of Garth Ennis's stuff. But when it comes to heroic characters like the Avengers and those DC characters we've been discussing, I like a certain optimism and heroic attitude to the stories. Busiek filled the bill very nicely with most of his Avengers stuff.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I've already said in this thread I like Geoff John's work and wish he could do *more* DC titles. But I have to say I agree with a lot of criticisms EDE and Stealth have put forward on Johns.

Do I think he's a great writer whose work I will buy? Yes.

Do I think sometimes fandom gives him a pass on his many flaws because he fulfills their fandom fantasies? Yes.

I think he's good but there is a lot of room for him to get better. While he might be one of the best writers at DC right now, that isn't saying *that* much. I would not put him in my "top 10 best writers writing comic books right now" list. I can name at least 10 other writers creating comic books that are putting on better work more consistently.

In the long run, I hope he continues to grow as a writer, stops focusing too much on the shared universe/continuity end of things and creates some great stories. He's certainly young enough and expresses a joy in making comics. I'm optimistic about what the future holds for him. But I don't want to give him the Nobel Prize 3 months after he's been elected President.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I also agree with Eryk that Morrison is more the heir to the Silver Age in the notion that the Silver Age was all about "creation" and "new ideas".

People who focus on the fact that a few Golden Age concepts were re-imagined are missing the point and haven't been paying attention. That wasn't what the Silver Age was about. It was about the exploration of new things, people, concepts and stories. It felt unlimited in the scope of what could come. Morrison captures this grand sense.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I would not put him in my "top 10 best writers writing comic books right now" list. I can name at least 10 other writers creating comic books that are putting on better work more consistently.

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Wow! Now, that's pretty harsh! I'm pretty sure that he would make MOST fans' Top Ten lists very easily and would probably be at or near the top of most of those lists. I know in my case I could probably list several writers who are doing better stuff, but he would probably be put above, say, Chew's John Layman simply because I've only read one thing by Layman. The large body of quality work by Johns would probably put him at or near the top for me.

So you stepped in it, Cobester--name 10 writers currently putting out comics who you'd rank higher than Geoff Johns along with at least a brief explanation! I'd like to see this list!
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
...and Rob Leifeld cannot be on that list...
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Like I didn't know that was coming.

Of course I never would have said that if I didn't already pick my ten. I know you too well for that, Lardy.

But first: I don't think it was too harsh. I think Geoff does a great job, he's just not the best of the best right now.

(1) Matt Wagner – Madame Xanadu and Zorro have been nothing short of excellent, of far superior quality than all of John’s work as a “storytelling” is concerned. Green Hornet: Origins has already started that way too. Plus, Wagner has a plethora of other comics to back it up.

(2) Grant Morrison – while not everything he does it the best thing ever, more of his work achieve “perfection” in my mind than Geoff’s does. He also brings a level of creation to his projects that Geoff sometimes achieves—while Grant almost always does it.

(3) Darwyn Cooke – Cooke is far superior in getting right into character depth with as few wasted moments as possible and making his characters extremely iconic in the process. He does the things Geoff does but in less time and far more consistently.

(4) Bill Willingham – Sure, Geoff writes several more comics than Bill does, but Willingham in all fairness writes more characters thane even Geoff! With Fables, Willingham has a cast of 50 or so characters who each have distinct personalities that continually surprise the readers. He consistently writes excellent stories too—so much that the stories are just as good as the characters. And his series has been going for like 100 issues now. Fables packs more of a punch in a single issue than all of Blackest Night’s 8 issues.

(5) Fred Van Lente – I meant it when I said Van Lente is doing incredible work at Marvel. If you haven’t heard of him by now, you’re really missing out. His Spider-Man stories are better than any others since probably Roger Stern. I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating. And the others series who feel his touch, from Incredible Hercules to whatever, are all top quality.

(6) Ed Brubaker – I know some of you get down on Ed, but I think that’s frankly just hog-wash. Bru is Marvel’s best writer right now and he is much more consistent than Geoff, Bendis or the other top names. He’s the best crime comic book writer since, hell, Lev Gleason. His stories are always poignant no matter what the scale of the story is, and he doesn’t pull any punches per the noir tradition.

(7) DnA – Just like Geoff, Dan and Andy don’t always get it right, but they do much more so than Geoff in my mind. Even more, while they use traditional characters like Geoff does, there is a sense of progression and newness Geoff doesn’t have. They are not hamstrung by this unrealistic desire to restore a company to its glory days of 1982. They tell great, solid sci-fi series. And they do it with two consistently good monthly titles (really three since there are so many minis—and recently, four).

(8) Robert Kirkman – I can already tell the response some of you will give me: “yeah, I think Kirkman’s great too, but he’s not on Geoff’s level yet.” Really? I mean, seriously? Where then, is Geoff’s Walking Dead? He doesn’t have one. Because he just hasn’t gone there yet. He might be comfortable with the DCU and want to play in it, but he then really needs to make the decision: do I want to have an ‘anything goes style’ (which he sometimes writes to) or do I want a ‘restore DC to its greatness’ style (which he also sometimes writes to). His overall body of work reveal a conflict in Geoff internally; Kirkman once had this conflict and overcame it IMO.

(9) Garth Ennis – I’m a big fan of Ennis and I can write you a 20 page paper on it, but I’ll sum it up: he takes risks; he has black sense of humor that pulls you right in; he creates character relationships that end up meaning more to me sometimes than relationships I see between real life people—and are more realistic too. And his storylines can make you laugh one page and then make you marvel at how moving they were. And then you think about them constantly after. I can’t say that for a lot of Geoff’s work.

(10) Gail Simone – Many point to this idea that Gail is also trapped in pleasing fanboy sensibilities but I think that’s a bunch of bull-crap myself. Gail’s works are not written for anyone other than herself these days, because you can see that in the risks she takes in every issue of Secret Six, which could easily offend a lot of people. Her Birds of Prey shows she can write characters with the best of them.

There are others I can mention too: I think Jeff Parker and Greg Pak are more reliable than Geoff but you can point out they’re still too “new” and don’t have Geoff’s body of work (which doesn’t necessarily help him—see: Infinite Crisis). Same goes for Jason Aaraon.

JMS is a writer putting out better stuff these days (Thor & Brave and Bold), but I know many would point to his Spider-Man stories but at this point I think it was pretty obvious Joe Q and Co. were the ones who pushed things in that bad direction. Removing those awful story decisions aside, most of his Spidey work was technically quite good.

There are writers who aren’t putting out enough consistent work to really be a competitor (Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, etc.), so I took them off the table.

Again, I like Geoff’s work and I don’t think I’m being that harsh about it. But I feel there must be a counter-part to the never-ending stream of Geoff Johns praise on the internet, especially by fans of Geoff.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
You'll note I specifically left Bendis off the list, and PAD too.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
One more thing: go ahead and make your arguements on the writers. I know Gail & Fred Van Lente will be the easy ones for people to claim Geoff does a better job than (and again I'll say specifically about Van Lente, you all don't know what the hell you're talking about ).

And let me even try to see one of you claim Johns does better stories than Cooke. You might as well leave Legion World permanently and quit comics
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
You'll note I specifically left Bendis off the list, and PAD too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
One more thing: go ahead and make your arguements on the writers. I know Gail & Fred Van Lente will be the easy ones for people to claim Geoff does a better job than (and again I'll say specifically about Van Lente, you all don't know what the hell you're talking about ).

And let me even try to see one of you claim Johns does better stories than Cooke. You might as well leave Legion World permanently and quit comics

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Mr. Cooke is a given Cobie.

As far as Fred Van Lente goes...he could be writing the ultimate Spidey stories, but the fact remains that it isn't really spidey. So I'll never read them. I tried a few trades from the debacle on...really did nothing for me after reading the aborted attempt to derail Peters life.

Spidey would NEVER have made a "deal with a devil" to save anyone. It's not his fault...or maybe not totally JMS's either (Joey Q. wanted it done...but JMS wrote a horrid story, and yes I read it at the library.)
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I have to point out the argument for anyone who says they won't read Spidey because of Brand New Day, many can easily say the same thing about the Legion, Green Lantern and most specifically, the Flash, all of which have been influenced by Geoff.

I wish Reboot would visit here and make that argument.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
I won't pick up Spidey because I'd have to buy three (or more) titles a month, not because of OMD/BND. I've thought about picking up trades, but the sheer number of them created by so many issues being cranked out is just daunting. Also, add in that the quality is inconsistent by definition because there are so many different people writing. Certainly reviews I've read (including Cobie's) seem to bear that fact out.

As for your list, it's definitely different from what mine would be. Some I disagree with, mostly mildly, and others I just have no opinion about because I've read very little or nothing by them. Cooke wouldn't make my list because I simply haven't read anything at all by him, for example. It's not that I don't want to or never intend to, but I can't give a guy props sight unseen.

Anyhow, I'll react to your list (and possibly shoot back one of my own at some point) later, but for now, I gotta mow the lawn!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Looking forward to it! And of course, not only are all lists subjective, but all of us certainly can only list writers we have more than just a passing familiarity with (why I didn't seriously include, say, Dave Sim).

The Spidey/having to buy 3 comics a month argument is a good one that I (and I don't think anyone) can refute--well played Lardy
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
The only writer on Cobie's list that would make my top whatever list would probably be Bill Willingham. His Elementals work was some of the best stuff I've read, even if it was hardly 'superhero' fare at times.

Plus he gets points for making a joke about cunningulus and getting away with it.

Morningstar, apparently alone in bed - "That was amazing!"
Boyfriend, coming up into the panel - "For you maybe. I think I dislocated my jaw..."
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Well, both Kirkman's THE WALKING DEAD and Simone's SECRET SIX are in my personal top 5... and Johns deosn't currently have a series I consider my own top 5... so, yeah.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
To clarify: those aren't my top 10 writers. I'd have to give that a lot more thought and that might take awhile.

Those are just 10 writers I think are doing better work than Johns. I think I could probably 5 more if I tried.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
I think Geoff is taking quite a beating here. he's doing a job, and has been asked several times (or at the very least gotten approval) to figure out and smooth out the histories of several very convoluted characters.

The violence that he does has gotten to me on occassions, but no more so than any other creator out there.

Ever since the first couple issues of super hero comics, writers have been reinventing the wheel. He does it better than some, worse than others.

He seems to be happy right now to play in the DC sandbox. He seems to have a respect for what come before, and trying to take them into the future. Didio seems to be fixated onthe silver/bronze age characters, and Geoff has a great knowledge of them.

He's not my favorite writer at the moment either, but he's up there, because I enjoy his work.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
I'll fall on Dev's side here. I personally really enjoyed BLACKEST NIGHT and am looking forward to BRIGHTEST DAY.

And all this without reading one issue of GL.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Well, I don't want to be known as anti-Geoff. Like I said, I'm actually a fan and buy all of his work.

This is like the middle arguing against the top. It's not two opposite sides arguing. I just don't think he's the best of the best. He's good, though. I look forward to him continuing to improve over time.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
PS - I rank Bendis right next to Geoff. Different writer all together, but same type of argument. I think he's very good. But he has enough flaws--I wouldn't rank him in my top 10 either, but I think he does quality work for the most part.

Perhaps its because the two are so prominent in their respective companies, it puts them in this position? Obviously, if you don't agree with my classifications, you wouldn't be able to comment on that. I think perhaps because they make such an effort to guide their respective companies it puts them in positions where they are forced to do things in their comics that make them occasionally sub-par? No real way to know if that's true or not.
 

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Posted by Mattropolis on :
 
I'm not a big fan of either Geoff or Bendis. I really dislike everything I have seen Bendis touch. I thought it was bias because of Disassembled, but even now I still always feel like im watching the trailer of a movie, rather than the movie itself
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
For the record, it's not so much Geoff I have a problem with, as the overall approach that DC is taking these days, and since Geoff is their most prominent writer, he ends up being the target.

For all I know it's Didio that's calling up and saying "Hey, let's have somebody's stomach ripped out this week!" and "Let's get Luthor back in the Lex-Soar 7, but be sure to link it to Thanagarian technology!" and so he's really the one that's responsible for the stuff that annoys me.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mattropolis:
I'm not a big fan of either Geoff or Bendis. I really dislike everything I have seen Bendis touch. I thought it was bias because of Disassembled, but even now I still always feel like im watching the trailer of a movie, rather than the movie itself

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
For the record, it's not so much Geoff I have a problem with, as the overall approach that DC is taking these days, and since Geoff is their most prominent writer, he ends up being the target.

For all I know it's Didio that's calling up and saying "Hey, let's have somebody's stomach ripped out this week!" and "Let's get Luthor back in the Lex-Soar 7, but be sure to link it to Thanagarian technology!" and so he's really the one that's responsible for the stuff that annoys me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MLLASH:
THE DEVIL'S DUE DEPT:

John Byrne, of all people, also had a major hand in restoring JSA to greatness-- he re-inserted the Golden-age Womder Woman (as Hippolyta) back into continuity.

This was one of the very few things he's done that I haven't hated since the 80s. I believe Johns and co. took this example and ran with it when they came into power.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
(1) Matt Wagner – Madame Xanadu and Zorro have been nothing short of excellent, of far superior quality than all of John’s work as a “storytelling” is concerned. Green Hornet: Origins has already started that way too. Plus, Wagner has a plethora of other comics to back it up.

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quote:

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[qb](2) Grant Morrison – while not everything he does it the best thing ever, more of his work achieve “perfection” in my mind than Geoff’s does. He also brings a level of creation to his projects that Geoff sometimes achieves—while Grant almost always does it.

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quote:

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(4) Bill Willingham – Sure, Geoff writes several more comics than Bill does, but Willingham in all fairness writes more characters thane even Geoff! With Fables, Willingham has a cast of 50 or so characters who each have distinct personalities that continually surprise the readers. He consistently writes excellent stories too—so much that the stories are just as good as the characters. And his series has been going for like 100 issues now. Fables packs more of a punch in a single issue than all of Blackest Night’s 8 issues.

---

Again, problem here is I haven't read enough Fables. One trade in, I enjoyed it but have only reached the tip of the iceberg. I look forward to seeing more of the story unfold over time.

(Noticed you didn't mention his crappy JSA run... )

quote:

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(5) Fred Van Lente – I meant it when I said Van Lente is doing incredible work at Marvel. If you haven’t heard of him by now, you’re really missing out. His Spider-Man stories are better than any others since probably Roger Stern. I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating. And the others series who feel his touch, from Incredible Hercules to whatever, are all top quality.

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quote:

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(6) Ed Brubaker – I know some of you get down on Ed, but I think that’s frankly just hog-wash. Bru is Marvel’s best writer right now and he is much more consistent than Geoff, Bendis or the other top names. He’s the best crime comic book writer since, hell, Lev Gleason. His stories are always poignant no matter what the scale of the story is, and he doesn’t pull any punches per the noir tradition.

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Oh yeah, Ed's been one of my favorites for the better bart of a decade, so no argument there. Most of his work is nothing short of extraordinary!

I know my disappointment with Cap may seem overly negative, but it's the longest dry spell I've seen him go on the title. I fear he may have burnt himself out on the book without realizing it. I'd say reviews from other sources tend to back me up with that feeling. Also, Marvel's Project is decent but reads mostly as "Brubaker porn" (stealing it back ) for us, his fanboys.

Criminal is one of his masterpieces. I'll buy that as long as he puts it out! Incognito was good, but felt like a poor cousin of the absolutely, undeniably superior Sleeper from a few years back. And I thought his Daredevil run was a hit from start to finish, moreso than Bendis/Maleev, IMO.

So I'd probably rank Bru over Geoff overall.

quote:

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(7) DnA – Just like Geoff, Dan and Andy don’t always get it right, but they do much more so than Geoff in my mind. Even more, while they use traditional characters like Geoff does, there is a sense of progression and newness Geoff doesn’t have. They are not hamstrung by this unrealistic desire to restore a company to its glory days of 1982. They tell great, solid sci-fi series. And they do it with two consistently good monthly titles (really three since there are so many minis—and recently, four).

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quote:

---

(8) Robert Kirkman – I can already tell the response some of you will give me: “yeah, I think Kirkman’s great too, but he’s not on Geoff’s level yet.” Really? I mean, seriously? Where then, is Geoff’s Walking Dead? He doesn’t have one. Because he just hasn’t gone there yet. He might be comfortable with the DCU and want to play in it, but he then really needs to make the decision: do I want to have an ‘anything goes style’ (which he sometimes writes to) or do I want a ‘restore DC to its greatness’ style (which he also sometimes writes to). His overall body of work reveal a conflict in Geoff internally; Kirkman once had this conflict and overcame it IMO.

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quote:

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(9) Garth Ennis – I’m a big fan of Ennis and I can write you a 20 page paper on it, but I’ll sum it up: he takes risks; he has black sense of humor that pulls you right in; he creates character relationships that end up meaning more to me sometimes than relationships I see between real life people—and are more realistic too. And his storylines can make you laugh one page and then make you marvel at how moving they were. And then you think about them constantly after. I can’t say that for a lot of Geoff’s work.

---

quote:

---

(10) Gail Simone – Many point to this idea that Gail is also trapped in pleasing fanboy sensibilities but I think that’s a bunch of bull-crap myself. Gail’s works are not written for anyone other than herself these days, because you can see that in the risks she takes in every issue of Secret Six, which could easily offend a lot of people. Her Birds of Prey shows she can write characters with the best of them.

---

Gail's stock is definitely rising with me. I LOVE Secret Six and will definitely pick up the Birds of Prey relaunch. I have two or three BoP trades of hers and enjoyed those nut not nearly as much as Secret Six. I'll give her another year and see how she ranks with me by then as I'll have around 50 issues and two series of her work under my belt.


Who else would I rank higher than Geoff? Oh, definitely Jason Aarons, on the strength of Scalped alone! That series is in the mid-thirties, so I think I've seen enough. His Punisher Max is really good so far, too. I've purchased the first of his Ghost Rider trades and will let y'all know what I think when I get to it.

There are many others who write irregularly these days, who I left off. Moore, Gaiman, Brian K. Vaughn.

Kurt Busiek, once my very favorite, is on the rise again as Astro City pucblishes more regularly and creator-owned work looks to be his focus.

At times Peter Milligan and Mark Wais were better than Geoff, too. Mark's doing pretty good stuff at Boom!, and Peter is kinda below my radar and has been for a good while. I have Peter's first Hellblazer arc but haven't read it yet.

So that's about four or five writers solidly or marginally better than Geoff who I read and are currently actively writing.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I've been waiting for that post and it was a thoroughly enjoyable read!

I figure at this point I won't go back and forth since its all subjective but am curious as to what other posters think regarding certain writers above Geoff.

Some random thoughts:

- You definitely have to review those Ghost Rider trades! I've considered picking them up myself but have not yet. One fresh recommendation from you will tip me that way since you haven't let me down yet!

- I thought about putting Jason Aaron on the list but hesitated because Scalped is about the only thing of his I read. I hope to change that.

- I left Waid off the list for the same reason as Bendis and PAD, in that too much of his stuff misses the mark. It's almost unfair because he just has such a large body of work that the average is weighed down by it I think. Still, I find his Unknown at Boom! to simply be fantastic and he does have some amazing runs that rank him among the best ever (Flash anyone?).

- Busiek is definitely back on the rise, I agree. I'd love to see him have Astro City on a regular basis as promised and one more great book and his backlog of amazing runs will justify him being on any one's top 10 list again.

- You mentioned Brian K. Vaughn and it occurs to me with his Ex Machina ending there won't be any Vaughn series going right now. That's criminal! I missed the boat on Ex Machina but I won't let that happen again.

Other things I LOVED by Van Lente include his Marvel Zombies miniseries (which I'm the opposite of Reboot on--I like 3 & 4 better than 1 & 2) and his work on the Scorpion via Amazing Fantasy, which I thought was superb (there is a thread here on Gym'lls for it which I thought I started). I'm optimistic his upcoming Iron Man: Legacy ongoing series will give me the kick-ass Iron Man comic I've been dying to collect since Busiek left.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I think Johns was a much better writer earlier in his tenure at DC (The JSA/Batman/pre-200 Flash stuff). Then he seemed to lose some restraint and his work suffered, which leads me to suspect he needs a good editor sitting on him and as he grows in stature that becomes less of a possibility.

I think the penchant for Ultra-violence and continuity porn undermine his better ideas, whereas if you look at his first 50 or so JSA issue, these things were there but kept in check to the service of a better story.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
I think Johns was a much better writer earlier in his tenure at DC (The JSA/Batman/pre-200 Flash stuff). Then he seemed to lose some restraint and his work suffered, which leads me to suspect he needs a good editor sitting on him and as he grows in stature that becomes less of a possibility.

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quote:

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There's no doubting Grant's enormous talent and imagination, but for me that rarely translates as an engrossing story. The ideas are just SO! BIG! that the characters tend to suffer as does simple comprehensibility. Probably the best two runs of his I've ever read are his JLA and Doom Patrol. The former was the perfect distillation of his ideas without losing comprehensibility. The latter was just so crazy and wildly outrageous that even if you were completely lost at points, you somehow didn't care.

All-Star Superman was close to perfect, but only close. Final Crisis was "blah". The Batman stuff is and was fairly interesting, but you just feel so detached from the characters. I think my problem with Morrison boils down to that: I just don't connect with the characters.

Alan Moore is very similar to Grant in many ways. The difference with Moore's stuff for me is his big ideas always seem more comprehensible and his characters are always more three-dimensional.

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Again, I don't question the originality and brilliance of his ideas. I DO question his characterizations and his execution a lot, though.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I get what you're saying about Morrison, though I find it a lot less than you do I think.

I think Morrison is quite brilliant and the way in which he evokes grand, epic storylines while at the same time keeping things quirky in a way only the comic book medium could do it is so enjoyable for me that I forgive him all of his 'minor' flaws. I think Eryk was right in that he represents the spirit of the Silver Age better than any other writer (besides perhaps Cooke), in that he is all about a sense of "creation" in everything he does, even when he is telling types of stories that have been told before.

You're point about not connecting with his characters is well taken. I think that's one of his "minor" flaws--in that it doesn't bother me that much. It's quite in the tradition of the Golden Age and Silver Age (of which I'm a fan), and it's all up to the reader to 'read into' the stories to the degree they connect with the characters. What I mean is, Morrison wastes no time with quiet character moments. If you, as the reader, connect with a character from his stories, that says more about you than the story. And I'm okay with that. But I do understand that might not be everyone's cup of tea. Yet, I do think he does have characters undergo a journey in all of his stories. Seven Soldiers really showcased this, with Zatanna, Guardian, Shining Knight and the rest really having some character development, though it was more subtle. In a way, his storylines are more grand and epic and his character development is more restrained--but at times, equally as powerful.

Now despite all this praise, sometimes Grant has some misses for me. Final Crisis was just awful to me. I get what he was trying to do but in my mind, he didn't accomplish it. And I loved his Batman stories with Bruce; but his Batman stories with Dick are leaving me cold. Yes, I require a better story to convince me to accept Dick as Batman that perhaps is unfair. But I expected Grant do actually do that. And he didn't. I actually have been in a 'burnt out on Grant' mode myself lately, to the degree I did not continue with "Joe the Barbarian" at Vertigo.

Still, despite my current 'burnt out' mode on Grant, I still love him as a writer. I think I'd probably rank him in my top 10. I think the ratio of "blown away by the amazingness to noticing the flaws" is just higher than Geoff's for me. Such a ratio is far too hard to calculate with mere words.

Grant Morrison also wrote All-Star Superman #6--which is the best single issue comic book story of the last 10+ years, perhaps the last 20 years. I have yet to see something that tops or matches it.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
PS - I thought Grant's X-Men run was terrific. Naysayers can't be trusted.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
I'm trying to think of Grant Morrison books I've read and all I can come up with is JLA, All-Star Superman, Final Crisis, Seven Soldiers and Batman.

Of them, Seven Soldiers is definitely my favourite. If it hadn't been for the disappointing final issue it would probably be my favourite comics project of all time.

And I think this book(s) was dripping in the characterisation you say Morrison currently lacks Lard Lad. Zatanna, Bulleteer, Manhattan Guardian, Frankenstein, Klarion... these characters came to life for me. All that and this project had some of the highest high-concepts I've ever read. Characters, concepts, plotting, storytelling, art - this project knocked it out of the park IMO.

Batman was also a total WIN for me. I'd been secretly denying it to myself because I was always kind of anti him before... but I honestly think that Batman under Grant Morrison was my favourite book on the stands during his run. It was truly, truly exciting and RIP was a masterpiece IMO. (Batman & Robin has been less good but still excellent.) But this is another example of Morrison bringing the characterisation goods. I never cared one iota about Bruce Wayne before Morrison started writing him.

All-Star Superman was of course excellent and deserving of all it's accolades. Though I agree with you that it wasn't perfect. I can't quite put my finger on what about it was less than perfection but I must admit that something about the project left me a little cold. Like a wonderful work of art that you can admire but not get totally excited by. I still really enjoyed it though.

Final Crisis was of course drek and only gets worse the more I remember of it (which is not much - for a Grant Morrison book it was very light on ideas. Darkseid died, New Gods started infecting people, Barry Allen came back, Superman sang a song... did anything else happen?). A shame because it had started with some promise.

JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

^ Having said all that, I did buy every issue and I'm tempted to reread them now that I'm more of a Morrison fan than I was then to see if my opinion on these issues hasn't changed somewhat.

I'd actually put Morrison and Johns on a par as far as my enjoyment of their stories goes. Morrison impresses me more and I can usually tell I'm reading higher quality writing when I'm reading one of his books. But Johns tends to use the parts of the DCU that appeal to me more and has a uniformity to his stories that (though a bit samey sometimes) often provide the perfect 15 minutes of enjoyment I'm looking for when I want to just kick back with a good comic book and forget about the world for a while.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
Batman? Johns never wrote Batman, did he?!?

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quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
If you don't think Morrison can do character work, you need to sit down and read We3, Vinamarama and Seaguy back to back and have your mind seriously changed.

"We3" in particular is a masterpiece and it all rests on giving these barely communicative animals such strong personalities that you get totally involved with the story.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
It's interesting that we joke about Johns or Bendis writing all the books for their respective publishers. They do high profile work, and they are often heavily involved in the big events. But look at their output, are they doing any more work than any other writer?

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I'd say it's not just so much their output, Ceej, it's about how their respective company's events and dominant creative directions largely take their cues from stuff set up in and branching out from their books. It's really hard to argue against Bendis being the mastermind at Marvel the last couple of years thru Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Siege. Geoff is a slightly more recent equivalent with how he set up New Krypton and Blackest Night.

Does that make more sense?
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Gai has a new WELCOME TO TRANQUILITY coming out?!?! HOT DAMN-- loved the first run!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Sometimes I wonder if perhaps fandom gives Bendis too much credit in guiding Marvel.

Based on his workload of the last few years, it's obvious things he wants to do are more likely to get green lit by Joe Q.

Based on the sales of his titles of the last few years, it's obvious other writers and artists will want to do things spinning out of his stories: obviously a writer looking for work would up his chances of approval if he wants to do a Luke Cage story or Dr. Voodoo story since they spin right out of New Avengers.

But he has no real position at Marvel that lets him guide the company. The real guiding force at Marvel is Joe Q; Bendis just his ear and is able to rally the other writers. But note Bendis has absolutely zero involvement with Spider-Man, the Hulk or the X-Men. Bendis also has limited interaction with Thor, Cap and Iron Man--he only has ever interacted with them through the Avengers.

What happens is Bendis creates an awesome story for his own Avengers comics; Joe Q sees it as a money-making scheme; other writers are trying to get projects green-lit and so say: "how about I take Bendis latest story and do the Fantastic Four / Iron Man / X-Men / whatever side of it in a miniseries".

In other words, the whole point of this post, is that Bendis has "implied power" at Marvel (even to him). He does not have "actual power". I suspect, based on interviews, he's come up with other ideas and the other writers have shot him down. We just never hear about it.

Bendis, like Johns, also has a huge message board with hundreds (thousands?) of followers who kind of see him as the Supreme Hydra of their community.

But not that long ago, Millar had that same power at Marvel and suddenly it seems as if he doesn't anymore. An FF run that wasn't a huge sales hit, Ultimate Comics that no longer sell or recieve any acclaim at all (from critics or fans), and he's focusing on independent stuff. He's making more money, sure, but not at Marvel...and so he's quickly gone from a guiding light at the Companay to a writer who I suspect would have to try to find a place to fit in when he's next ready to.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Bendis destroyed the Avengers, which did have an effect on the Spider Man books (huge effects), Cap and several others. Like Geoff at DC, Bendis has pretty much had the point man position for the Marvel universe since Avengers Disassembled.

That is not necessarily a bad thing for some fans, and is a bad thing for others. By that I mean Geoff and Bendis are the ones seemingly leading the charge, and get the most shots lobbed at them.

It really looks like the real issue here is Didio and Joey Q. These two have been pulling strings for a while now...Didio has been returning DC to a semblance of the Silver Age, while Joey Q has made changes everywhere.

I do not agree with either on all of their decisions and ideas...they have both had some very good things happen under their watch, but have a lot more patience for DC and Didio returning to the classics (for me at least) than what JQ did to Spider-Man, the mess that is the X-Men, and the lack of real diversity that Marvel shows in their overall publishing. DC has a full fledged kids line, Vertigo, Wildstorm, plus other areas they publish. Marvels seems anemic by comparison.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Point of Clarification:

Well I consider Vertigo an entirely seperate comic book company that has the same ownership as DC Comics. Didio and Co. aren't allowed to touch it and that's how it should be; ipso facto, "DC" can't claim any of the credit Vertigo gets for all its great series.

Saying they are the same company is akin to saying Coca Cola and GEICO are the same company because of shared ownership. So long as they operate independently, I like to treat them as such.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
2nd Point:

I hated Avengers Dissessembled. But did it destroy the Avengers? No, not really.

The Avengers were already broken. Austen was horrific. Geoff was only 'meh' (granted, the Bill Jemas write for the trade era was in full effect) and even Busiek lingered for years. The series hadn't been relevant or great in a long time. And the Avengers is my favorite Marvel franchise besides Spider-Man.

While I did not like the New Avengers at first, cringing at the inclusion of Wolverine and Spider-Man, annoyed at Bendis using his favorites Spider-Woman and Luke Cage, it grew on me.

And here's the result:

- the Avengers franchise is now the top seller in comic books

- People actually care and are interested again and its spilled into Iron Man, Thor and others.

- Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye and the rest are basically all back. It took awhile but its happened. The only Avengers who took a huge hit in Dissembled were Jack of Hearts & Ant-Man (neither really Avengers), and Scarlet Witch (who obviously will have several more stories to come) and the Vision (who is in Young Avengers). Only the last (the Vision) still bothers me.

If you want to call it anything, Marvel pulled a huge "bait & switch" on fandom in general that took several years. The idea that they destroyed the Avengers created some interest in the series but all they really destroyed was Avengers Mansion. Now the sales & interest is there and they are bringing the traditional Avengers back to the fold gradually (begun some time ago and now really kicking off).

In the process, they've created a renewed sense of interest in Hawkeye and some others; they've got people interested in Luke Cage and Spider-Woman for the first time ever (like me); and they've got FOUR or FIVE Avengers titles ongoing!

Spider-Man in the Avengers is something I've never wanted. I wouldn't mind if it ended now. But you know what? Bendis writes him so damn good in the Avengers its hard to complain.

Wolverine in the Avengers isn't what I want or any of us want. But guess what--he's here to stay. Here's a flagship character at Marvel for 30 years now and as much a part of their top-line as Cap, Spidey or anyone. JSA fans might have hated Superman and Batman joining the JLA in the 60's on a more permanent basis but it was and remains something that will continue hereafter permanently. None of us have to like it. Some of us can refuse to accept it. But all I can say is: shrug it off, it's okay. He barely ever does anything anyway except appear on covers.

I think Bendis & Marvel have either by design or accident created a brilliant plan in making the Avengers the most important team franchise in comic books. And it's worked! And the quality is actually there! It's not only a sales success, the stories and art are pretty fantastic!
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Unless Geico starts selling it's own cola, you're argument drops short of the goal line. They all have the DC comics bullet on them, Geico doesn't have the Coke logo...not the same product at all. DCU and Vertigo are sold to the same customer...comic fans.

Didio may not have control of Vertigo, but that wasn't my point when I was talking about "overall" publishing. The overall point was I think DC puts out a loot more good things than Marvel. My opinion.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Regarding the New Avengers, I've read quite a few trades of theirs, and enjoyed most of them...but ya know what, they're not really the Avengers. They're who Bendis wanted to play with. Plain and simple, and JQ gave him the go ahead. That's cool, he runs the joint...so be it. I'd actually love to see Bendis back on Daredevil, and give him a Heroes for Hire title to play with his other toys. Cage is great under his direction and I would probabl think about picking up a seeries about him with Bendis writing it.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I get what you're saying Dev, but if you're talking from that high corporate angle, than we're getting well beyond DC vs. Marvel. We're getting closer to Time-Warner vs. Disney. Because the go-betweens from Didio to Karen Berger are all people you and I have never heard of.

Marvel releases like 10 titles a month of comic book adaptations of classic stories like the Odyssey, Pride & Prejudice, Blackbeard, etc. Some of them are written by the legendary Roy Thomas. They are a huge part of the Marvel solicits every month. I've never bothered to check one out or discuss them, but it shows Marvel is doing other things.

Marvel also has a kids line, complete with an adaptation of their TV show, Super Squad (or something). Again, I don't know much or care much about it, but it exists.

The only thing Marvel doesn't have is a Vertigo. But even there, they have something: they have the Icon imprint, which is like their own Image Comics. And that has a wide range of genres and themes. It also has some really great comic books: Criminal & Incognito, Powers, Kick-Ass, Casanova, various artsy stuff by David Mack and so forth. Not quite on Vertigo's level but its not trying to be Vertigo.

I'll also (sadly) give you this awful prophecy. One day, someone high up at DC Entertainment will realize the Vertigo books aren't great seller and somehow let the wolves into the Vertigo village--and Didio and the rest will love every second of it. And on that day, Vertigo will die. But hopefully Karen Berger will be snatched up by a smart publisher like IDW or Dynamite or Image or someone, and all of the writers & artists with any sense of loyalty and dignity will follow her and it can continue without the DC logo. Do I want that to happen? Never. Will it? Probably.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
I do give Marvel props with the novel adaptations. As well as the Stephen King stuff they have been doing...it's definately a step towards better things for them.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
One of the main thing I hope that DC is going to do with the big three (Didio, Johns and Lee) in power now is that one voice will not be pushing one vision. That there will be a mixture of elements from all three.

I too fear for the long term safety of Vertigo, but as long as Berger is there...I don't see that changing any time soon. I thinnk they're afraid of her at this poin t. If/When she ever leaves though, God help us all.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Also, regarrding the feeble attempt of Marvel to produce a kids line...a handful of comics does not a sub line make.

Marvel had a great idea with the Ultimate Universe, and should have done something like that for kids...a line of their popular heroes in stories (new stories, not just retellings of the stuff we've all read and can actually give our kids to read) that are more age appropriate.

DC could use to do this as well. While they have a wider kids comics selection, it is kinda dissappointing in some ways as well. There is some stuff that is good, but there should be a Justice Leage featuring the big 7 going on that any 7 year old can pick up and read.

I realize that financially it would be near impossible to carry two versions of everything, but an anthology title with rotating features would work for both companies.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Personally I think every single Superman comic produced should be accessible to 7 year old and 45 year olds at the same time. DC is missing the boat in a huge way--the character basically sells himself as part of pop-culture; they just need stories everyone can read.

Superman shouldn't be fighting rapists, fundamentalists and communists.

Talk about years and years of screwing it up.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Ideally, Spider-Man should be the same way.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Personally I think every single Superman comic produced should be accessible to 7 year old and 45 year olds at the same time. DC is missing the boat in a huge way--the character basically sells himself as part of pop-culture; they just need stories everyone can read.

Superman shouldn't be fighting rapists, fundamentalists and communists.

Talk about years and years of screwing it up.

---

They have a book where the hero(ine) is accessible to all ages. She fights madmen and interplanetary villains, not rapists or psychotics. But you don't like what GrayPal are doing with Power Girl.

[ April 22, 2010, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: CJ Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Personally I think every single Superman comic produced should be accessible to 7 year old and 45 year olds at the same time. DC is missing the boat in a huge way--the character basically sells himself as part of pop-culture; they just need stories everyone can read.

Superman shouldn't be fighting rapists, fundamentalists and communists.

Talk about years and years of screwing it up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Personally I think every single Superman comic produced should be accessible to 7 year old and 45 year olds at the same time. DC is missing the boat in a huge way--the character basically sells himself as part of pop-culture; they just need stories everyone can read.

Superman shouldn't be fighting rapists, fundamentalists and communists.

Talk about years and years of screwing it up.

---

They have a book where the hero(ine) is accessible to all ages. She fights madmen and interplanetary villains, not rapists or psychotics. But you don't like what GrayPal are doing with Power Girl.

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Well, I need it to actually be good too.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Personally I think every single Superman comic produced should be accessible to 7 year old and 45 year olds at the same time. DC is missing the boat in a huge way--the character basically sells himself as part of pop-culture; they just need stories everyone can read.

Superman shouldn't be fighting rapists, fundamentalists and communists.

Talk about years and years of screwing it up.

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I agree in principle, but I want to point out that I *do* like the edgy political tone of Golden Age Superman, and so I wouldn't want it watered down so you couldn't have that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Sometimes I wonder if perhaps fandom gives Bendis too much credit in guiding Marvel.

Based on his workload of the last few years, it's obvious things he wants to do are more likely to get green lit by Joe Q.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dev Em:
Bendis destroyed the Avengers, which did have an effect on the Spider Man books (huge effects), Cap and several others.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I hated Avengers Dissessembled. But did it destroy the Avengers? No, not really.

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It was the catalyst, but it's what came after that really destroyed the Avengers. As you said Spider-man and Wolverine don't belong. Ever. Being Avengers fundamentally undermines what those two characters stand for. And they are there for one reason only: marketability. That's it. Let's put our two most marketable characters in the Avengers. Period.

Moreover, Bendis changed the team's tone completely to match the kind of stories he was comfortable with telling. The Avengers were serving Bendis, rather than Bendis serving the Avengers. That's just laziness.

So Bendis was interested in writing the kinds of characters he was comfortable writing to serve the kinds of stories he was comfortable writing. Darker, edgier, fringier characters. I can't argue that he's done wonders with Luke Cage, but like Spidey and Wolverine, he just doesn't belong there.

After Disassembled, the gutsier move would've been to create a new team with a new name and launch from there. Leave the Avengers name behind, establish a new thing to take its place, and, like it or not, at least no one could complain that he wasn't telling Avengers stories if he wasn't calling it that.

I know...calling it something else would've been a lot less marketable. Well, in contrast, the Ultimates reinvented the Avengers concept, called it something else and did quite well for itself. So there!

It doesn't matter that Bendis and Quesada may have had a x-year plan to do what their about to do and relaunch Avengers with a more recognizable and classic lineup. The damage has been done. Spidey and Wolverine are still there. And I'm reasonably sure that Bendis will write it mostly the way he is comfortable writing it--which is all wrong for a title calling itself the Avengers!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 


Guys, guys, guys. Bendis putting his favorites on the team is something almost every Avengers writer has done including Kurt Busiek, Roger Stern, Steve Englehart and Roy Thomas!

Fact: Marvel fans in the mid-60's thought adding Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch to the line-up was a hugely stupid decision! (My father was one)

Fact: Marvel fans in the late 60's thought adding Black Panther to the line-up was Roy Thomas doing whatever he wanted to do and not keeping it the Avengers.

Ms. Marvel? Namor? Mockingbird? All of these characters were on their own for years and eventually became members.

Do I like Spidey and Wolverine in the Avengers? No. But there is precendent. That entire arguement rings false for me. This is nothing new. This is a tradition in comic books in general.

As for Bendis--again, I think you give him too much credit Lardy. Civil War was Millar's thing and you don't hesitate to rope him into it. Sure, I bet he was at the editorial retreats and said "wow, great idea!". But he can't take credit for it. You compared him to Stan Lee on the previous page--that's way over the top! Bendis certainly doesn't have as much control as Jim Shooter did in the 80's. Or Roy Thomas after Stan.

Bendis has about as much control as Englehardt did in the 70's and Stern did in the 80's. And I admit, that's a lot. But he's not on par with the EiC's.

Saying Bendis is responsible for the Dark Reign stuff in Iron Man is like saying: "Damn you Claremont and your stupid Mutant Massacre! I had to sit through two issues of Thor fighting mutants in the sewers!". Claremont didn't make Walt Simonsin do that--Walt did it himself. Bendis can't be blamed because Matt Fraction figured he could boost sales by participating in Dark Reign. I could see extending the blame to Tom Brevoort or Joe Q, but there's no vicarious liability that extends sideways; it only can go up.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
This is not the same comic community as the 80's Cobie. Fact is, Bendis' stories did pretty much force writers to pay attention and play along, or else their comics became "not important" to the main Marvel Universe. To say otherwise is naive. Pak got away with the Hulk because he was on another planet, and then came back with a singular mission that meant he (Hulk) wouldn't really give a damn about what was happening to the rest of theswe people...most of whom he wanted to pummell anyway.

Geoff did this as well with BN, but on a lesser scale. Some books participated and got a boost, some did not. It really seemed like more creator choice, but not in a few cases (JLA being one.)
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
Moreover, Bendis changed the team's tone completely to match the kind of stories he was comfortable with telling. The Avengers were serving Bendis, rather than Bendis serving the Avengers. That's just laziness.

So Bendis was interested in writing the kinds of characters he was comfortable writing to serve the kinds of stories he was comfortable writing. Darker, edgier, fringier characters. I can't argue that he's done wonders with Luke Cage, but like Spidey and Wolverine, he just doesn't belong there.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dev Em:
This is not the same comic community as the 80's Cobie. Fact is, Bendis' stories did pretty much force writers to pay attention and play along, or else their comics became "not important" to the main Marvel Universe. To say otherwise is naive. Pak got away with the Hulk because he was on another planet, and then came back with a singular mission that meant he (Hulk) wouldn't really give a damn about what was happening to the rest of theswe people...most of whom he wanted to pummell anyway.

Geoff did this as well with BN, but on a lesser scale. Some books participated and got a boost, some did not. It really seemed like more creator choice, but not in a few cases (JLA being one.)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:

Well, that isn't Bendis' fault because his stuff sells. From interviews with various writers, its clear that Marvel never forces another writer to participate in a crossover if they don't want to. Those days of the 90's are done with.

You can blame Marvel editorial and marketing for pushing his stories so strongly. You can blame the other writers for jumping at the chance to be included. You can even blame the fans for focusing so intently on Bendis-driven stuff. But Bendis is just writing the stories he wants to write.

He can't walk over to Jeff Parker and tell him to put Osborn in Agents of Atlas. There has never been a case reported where Bendis has pressured anyone to do that. And in this era of the internet, it would surely be out there.

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I doubt that he's putting a gun to anyones head (that's JQ's job )
But I'm sure at their summits that it is discussed how each book can benifit by joining in, and how they could join in.

DC does the same thing, I'm sure.

At the very least, I'm sure there are phone calls made to see if people want "in" on the latest mega event.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Johns I think feels the need to restore the comic book industry to 1982 and then go from there. Other writers feel the need to just write from their first issue with the notion that everything changes hereafter and then goes from there.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:


Guys, guys, guys. Bendis putting his favorites on the team is something almost every Avengers writer has done including Kurt Busiek, Roger Stern, Steve Englehart and Roy Thomas!

Fact: Marvel fans in the mid-60's thought adding Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch to the line-up was a hugely stupid decision! (My father was one)

Fact: Marvel fans in the late 60's thought adding Black Panther to the line-up was Roy Thomas doing whatever he wanted to do and not keeping it the Avengers.

Ms. Marvel? Namor? Mockingbird? All of these characters were on their own for years and eventually became members.

Do I like Spidey and Wolverine in the Avengers? No. But there is precendent. That entire arguement rings false for me. This is nothing new. This is a tradition in comic books in general.

---

Des, Des, Des...

As someone whom I know to be a comics historian and especially knowledgeable about things Silver Age to now, I'm a little disappointed that you threw those examples at me. Did you think I didn't consider those instances?

Of course Avengers writers are gonna infuse characters they're interested in writing! You can look at ever super-team book and find examples of that! But none of those examples were marketing decisions by any stretch of the imagination! (in fact some were risky) Without a doubt that's what the inclusion of Spidey and Wolverine is and was all about!

And Namor was definitely a case of a character who didn't belong, like Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Dr. Strange and possibly Spider-woman (particularly the way she was portrayed) didn't. Hawkeye belongs, but Clint Barton as Ronin does not. But there's a difference between putting one risky character in the mix and absolutely populating the lineup with them!

When the whole Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye thing came about, the title was still very new (#16?), so it's difficult to say that the whole Avengers concept was set in stone at that time. In any case it wasn't very long at all 'til the characters who left started returning. Bad example, I'd say.

There's ALWAYS room for new blood in the Avengers, and I'm okay with a few of those choices being on the risky side. But to do that essentially to the whole damn lineup?!?! Not cool, man. Not cool.

Bendis changed everything that we ever expected in a flagship Avengers book to make it unrecognizable from what came before. If fans enjoy that, I can't argue with them. But as a longtime Avengers fan, I feel confident saying that what he's been writing ain't the Avengers more than superficially.

So...I'm assuming your dad likes what Bendis has done?

quote:

---

As for Bendis--again, I think you give him too much credit Lardy. Civil War was Millar's thing and you don't hesitate to rope him into it. Sure, I bet he was at the editorial retreats and said "wow, great idea!". But he can't take credit for it.

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quote:

---

You compared him to Stan Lee on the previous page--that's way over the top! Bendis certainly doesn't have as much control as Jim Shooter did in the 80's. Or Roy Thomas after Stan.

Bendis has about as much control as Englehardt did in the 70's and Stern did in the 80's. And I admit, that's a lot. But he's not on par with the EiC's.

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quote:

---

Saying Bendis is responsible for the Dark Reign stuff in Iron Man is like saying: "Damn you Claremont and your stupid Mutant Massacre! I had to sit through two issues of Thor fighting mutants in the sewers!". Claremont didn't make Walt Simonsin do that--Walt did it himself. Bendis can't be blamed because Matt Fraction figured he could boost sales by participating in Dark Reign. I could see extending the blame to Tom Brevoort or Joe Q, but there's no vicarious liability that extends sideways; it only can go up.

---

Yeesh! You don't think someone told Matt Fraction when he took the book that Tony Stark was going to be a centerpiece in what was to come in Dark Reign and that it would color what he was writing in the series for a long time? This wasn't dumped on Fraction; he knew what he was in for. I read enough early interviews where he alluded to the "next storyline" just as the series started to know better.

Was it Bendis who told him this? No, I'm not saying that. But with Bendis's influence on the creative process and helping to shape the storylines, he gets a share of the blame.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I think Chris Claremont one is a good one and I can agree with that. We might not agree on whether its good or bad, but certainly that fits.

I still don't buy into Bendis receiving the blame for Osborn's appearances in Iron Man, Agents of Atlas and all those other titles. It simply isn't his fault that Marvel editorial takes his ideas and promotes them to the fullest so other writers are glad to jump on the bandwagon.

Regarding what you say about marketing being a factor where in the past it wasn't. I'll first beg to differ and then give you credit where credit is due. First, I think marketing has always been a factor on who is in the Avengers line-up and the line-up of any team. *But* I will agree that marketing is a much bigger factor in this era than any other era previously. I certainly agree 100% that its the reason Spidey & Wolverine are in Avengers. So yes, you're right about that.

As I'm trying to figure out where the fine line is between where you and I differ in our opinions, I guess it comes down to I'm not all that surprised by it. Superman and Batman are in JLA for the same reasons--they weren't always like that in the beginning years. They were left out of the JSA as well. Eventually it became clear to keep them involved for sales. Now its become systematic to have them join, exit, rejoin, etc. since. Your argument will of course be: but that’s always been what the JLA has been about and not what the Avengers have been about. I would say that’s not 100% true and the Avengers started out the same way and the big 3 returning again and again paralleled this. Whereas Iron Man, Thor and Cap’s popularity has grown potentially less pervasive than it was in the 60’s, Batman and Superman have remained in that prominent position. Therefore, Marvel has reverted to its original line of thinking from the Silver Age and again tried to install its top selling characters onto the team, only this time, those characters are not the same as they were then.

That’s really only a logical viewpoint. Do I like it? Not really. Am I bothered by it? Obviously not as much as you and Dev. But the key is I’m not surprised by it. The Avengers don’t seem very Avenger-ry to you guys. But the Avengers is not like the X-Men (to me), in that there is a host of characters off in their own corner of the Marvel Universe. The Avengers is not a family title (to me), like the Teen Titans. The Avengers are the equivalent of the JLA in the Marvel U. And the 80’s happened (the rise of the X-Men and Wolverine), and the 90’s happened. The Avengers has to take that into account. The line-up can’t forever be Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hank, Jan, Hawkeye, Wanda, Vision, Herc, Black Widow, Black Panther. It has to evolve and so does the MU in general.

I can tell we’re not going to agree on this, so I think I should rest my case here and see what anyone else has to say. Like I said, I’m not thrilled Wolverine and Spider-Man are members of the Avengers. But its not a deal breaker or anything for me. When Cable joins the Avengers in 5 years, I’m not going to drop it then either. (Deadpool is too far of course )

PS - my Dad has not read an issue of the Avengers since Perez was the artist the first time around. His idea of a good Avengers line-up is Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, the Wasp and *maybe* someone like Black Panther or the Vision.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
I still don't buy into Bendis receiving the blame for Osborn's appearances in Iron Man, Agents of Atlas and all those other titles. It simply isn't his fault that Marvel editorial takes his ideas and promotes them to the fullest so other writers are glad to jump on the bandwagon."

So when the Superman writers elected Lex Luthor as President, nobody else at DC had to pay attention to a character in prominent position of power. They were just jumping on a bandwagon when a major villian (that at least should not have been dead) achieves a pinnacle of power?

You honestly do not think that the powers that be at the very least suggested to everyone to see where they can fit him into the storylines to try to boost sales?

My last thought on Bendis Avenger line-up is this. I remember them (BMB and JQ) saying something to the effect of that they were going to put their most popular characters in the Avengers, just like DC does with the JLA. Except, it turned out that it was Cap, IM, Spidey, Wolverine and a bunch of characters that Mr. Bendis likes to write.

JLA is usually a big gun type book, whereas the Avengers always seemed more about a family feel. Throwing the mmost popular kids in the playground together was a marketing tool...from their own mouths. DC admite this as well with the JLA...nothing overtly wrong with it...but JLA has always been a top gun book. Avengers changed that in little more than a year into the book. Then they became something else. I don't mind offshoot characters in the Avengers, I loved the stuff with Black Knight, Sersi, and others. Some of those characters work better than others.

I can see this turning into almost another type of discussion at this point, about what these teams are really about, and who should be on said teams...
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Claremont is a great parallel. Someone who came on a book and made wholesale changes that most fans loved. Great.

Now let's add in another book or two, give the original team their own book, split the team into two books...etc. Now lets have a crossover...now a crossover with everyone else. Now lets reboot all the books with number 1's...

Except, they did it this time in the matter of months instead of years.

Does not mean it's a good idea.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
The point is that I don't think there's very much iconic and *new* being introduced in comics at the moment. There's a lot of reverting things back to suppposedly iconic incarnations of the past, but I have to wonder if writers/readers in the future will have anything from 2010 to look back at and say "Hey, that's really the classic era of Comic X, let's make it look like that again!".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dev Em:
My last thought on Bendis Avenger line-up is this. I remember them (BMB and JQ) saying something to the effect of that they were going to put their most popular characters in the Avengers, just like DC does with the JLA. Except, it turned out that it was Cap, IM, Spidey, Wolverine and a bunch of characters that Mr. Bendis likes to write.

JLA is usually a big gun type book, whereas the Avengers always seemed more about a family feel. Throwing the mmost popular kids in the playground together was a marketing tool...from their own mouths. DC admite this as well with the JLA...nothing overtly wrong with it...but JLA has always been a top gun book. Avengers changed that in little more than a year into the book. Then they became something else. I don't mind offshoot characters in the Avengers, I loved the stuff with Black Knight, Sersi, and others. Some of those characters work better than others.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
JLA has pretty much always been that way except for the Giffen/Dematteis JLI era and the Detroit era.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - my Dad has not read an issue of the Avengers since Perez was the artist the first time around. His idea of a good Avengers line-up is Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, the Wasp and *maybe* someone like Black Panther or the Vision.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
You bring up a great new topic though Lardy. What do you recommend someone who used to love comics but hardly reads them anymore?

My Dad dislikes comics that are incomplete stories, or at the very most, don't run for more than three issues.

My Dad isn't going to be reading month to month--so the series needs to be relatively self-contained.

He has his favorites from his former experiences reading comics but doesn't want a retread of old ideas. Because frankly, he thinks the originals were better anyway.

What series does all this?

I can name dozens. For the sake or narrowing it down. What superhero series does all this?

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I'd have to concur with B&B as a terrific choice. It's usual done-in-one style combined with a classic yet modern feel would seem the perfect way to rope someone like your dad in. You don't have to worry about continuity or crossovers either.

Also, I keep thinking about Invincible. It also combines classic superhero formulas with modern sensibilities. I know you, Des, are not entirely sold on it, but he may feel differently. There are some multi-part storylines, but they tend to run about four parts max. Lots of done-in-ones sprinkled in as well and unreliant on crossovers (with the sole exception of a brief Astonishing Wolfman 2-parter). It's like a modern Spider-man series in tone but is definitely its own thing.

Astro City would be an easy recommendation. Yes, it has some multi-parters (especially Dark Age). I'd give him the original miniseries with its done-in-ones as a fine starting point.

And it's hard to beat Incredible Hercules for a singularly fun celebaration of superhero comics. As you know, it's far from just a comedy series, but the sense of fun is always there.

Otherwise, there's All-Star Superman, Ultimate Spider-man and Booster Gold that would seem like sure bets.
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Who outside of the big two regulars holds the most "power"? They can be big two writers, but ignore that aspect of their work.

Kirkman?

He would be an easy choice.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
I think Kirkman is unquestionably the writer outside of the Big Two with the most power. Just let two words roll thru your brain for one moment: Image Partner. Kirkman's the first non-artist ever to get a partnership in Image and the first to be allowed in who wasn't a founder. That's influence, my friend!

Who else is even in the ballpark? Ennis? Moore? Gaiman? Ellis? All of these guys can do whatever they want should they desire to. Moore writes very little these days, but he always does it on his own terms. Gaiman practically walked away but could write his own paycheck if he ever wanted to. Ellis still does a lot of work both inside and outside the big two. Ennis is still prolific but has recently focussed solely on creator-owned work.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Y'know, at some point we moved past Grant Morrison before I'd really delved into him enough. I wasn't through with him dammit!!!

Here's a sampling of some of the Morrison discussion a few pages ago:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I get what you're saying about Morrison, though I find it a lot less than you do I think.

I think Morrison is quite brilliant and the way in which he evokes grand, epic storylines while at the same time keeping things quirky in a way only the comic book medium could do it is so enjoyable for me that I forgive him all of his 'minor' flaws. I think Eryk was right in that he represents the spirit of the Silver Age better than any other writer (besides perhaps Cooke), in that he is all about a sense of "creation" in everything he does, even when he is telling types of stories that have been told before.

You're point about not connecting with his characters is well taken. I think that's one of his "minor" flaws--in that it doesn't bother me that much. It's quite in the tradition of the Golden Age and Silver Age (of which I'm a fan), and it's all up to the reader to 'read into' the stories to the degree they connect with the characters. What I mean is, Morrison wastes no time with quiet character moments. If you, as the reader, connect with a character from his stories, that says more about you than the story. And I'm okay with that. But I do understand that might not be everyone's cup of tea. Yet, I do think he does have characters undergo a journey in all of his stories. Seven Soldiers really showcased this, with Zatanna, Guardian, Shining Knight and the rest really having some character development, though it was more subtle. In a way, his storylines are more grand and epic and his character development is more restrained--but at times, equally as powerful.

Now despite all this praise, sometimes Grant has some misses for me. Final Crisis was just awful to me. I get what he was trying to do but in my mind, he didn't accomplish it. And I loved his Batman stories with Bruce; but his Batman stories with Dick are leaving me cold. Yes, I require a better story to convince me to accept Dick as Batman that perhaps is unfair. But I expected Grant do actually do that. And he didn't. I actually have been in a 'burnt out on Grant' mode myself lately, to the degree I did not continue with "Joe the Barbarian" at Vertigo.

Still, despite my current 'burnt out' mode on Grant, I still love him as a writer. I think I'd probably rank him in my top 10. I think the ratio of "blown away by the amazingness to noticing the flaws" is just higher than Geoff's for me. Such a ratio is far too hard to calculate with mere words.

Grant Morrison also wrote All-Star Superman #6--which is the best single issue comic book story of the last 10+ years, perhaps the last 20 years. I have yet to see something that tops or matches it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
I'm trying to think of Grant Morrison books I've read and all I can come up with is JLA, All-Star Superman, Final Crisis, Seven Soldiers and Batman.

Of them, Seven Soldiers is definitely my favourite. If it hadn't been for the disappointing final issue it would probably be my favourite comics project of all time.

And I think this book(s) was dripping in the characterisation you say Morrison currently lacks Lard Lad. Zatanna, Bulleteer, Manhattan Guardian, Frankenstein, Klarion... these characters came to life for me. All that and this project had some of the highest high-concepts I've ever read. Characters, concepts, plotting, storytelling, art - this project knocked it out of the park IMO.

Batman was also a total WIN for me. I'd been secretly denying it to myself because I was always kind of anti him before... but I honestly think that Batman under Grant Morrison was my favourite book on the stands during his run. It was truly, truly exciting and RIP was a masterpiece IMO. (Batman & Robin has been less good but still excellent.) But this is another example of Morrison bringing the characterisation goods. I never cared one iota about Bruce Wayne before Morrison started writing him.

All-Star Superman was of course excellent and deserving of all it's accolades. Though I agree with you that it wasn't perfect. I can't quite put my finger on what about it was less than perfection but I must admit that something about the project left me a little cold. Like a wonderful work of art that you can admire but not get totally excited by. I still really enjoyed it though.

Final Crisis was of course drek and only gets worse the more I remember of it (which is not much - for a Grant Morrison book it was very light on ideas. Darkseid died, New Gods started infecting people, Barry Allen came back, Superman sang a song... did anything else happen?). A shame because it had started with some promise.

JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

^ Having said all that, I did buy every issue and I'm tempted to reread them now that I'm more of a Morrison fan than I was then to see if my opinion on these issues hasn't changed somewhat.

I'd actually put Morrison and Johns on a par as far as my enjoyment of their stories goes. Morrison impresses me more and I can usually tell I'm reading higher quality writing when I'm reading one of his books. But Johns tends to use the parts of the DCU that appeal to me more and has a uniformity to his stories that (though a bit samey sometimes) often provide the perfect 15 minutes of enjoyment I'm looking for when I want to just kick back with a good comic book and forget about the world for a while.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:

quote:

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Originally posted by rouge:
If you don't think Morrison can do character work, you need to sit down and read We3, Vinamarama and Seaguy back to back and have your mind seriously changed.

"We3" in particular is a masterpiece and it all rests on giving these barely communicative animals such strong personalities that you get totally involved with the story.

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Though I haven't read We3, I didn't mean to imply that character work was non-existent in Morrison's work. I feel, for example, that what I've read of his Animal Man was pretty strong in that regard. It's just in my opinion it's a pretty common complaint I have about his stuff. Obviously, I haven't read every single thing he's written, and there are some notable exceptions in what I have read.

Again, my other general complaint is that I have no idea what's going on in certain parts of his stories, and it usually seems rooted in his storytelling methods, as opposed to being a set-up for a mystery resolution at some point. Final Crisis was rife with this problem, and Batman R.I.P. had some of those issues as well (though I enjoyed the latter overall). I found Seven Soldiers: Zatanna confusing as well.

It's not that I'm not up for a challenging read. It's that I can rarely crack whatever code it is he uses to tell his story. It reads as if he understands what he's trying to do, but he may not realize some or most people don't. There's almost always that aspect to his scripts.

Just for the sake of comparison, I'll give you Alan Moore's run on Promethea. That was an extremely challenging book on very many levels that threw tons of huge concepts at the reader continually. But challenging as it was, I was able to follow what Moore was trying to do despite its complexity. And that's a tribute to how Alan can present concepts that are big, challenging and entertaining reads without losing me on the way. (It also has some great characterization!) If you haven't checked it out, try Promethea some time and imagine how Grant might have written it.

Other works like All-Star Superman and Batman & Robin are pretty clear and cohesive but lack an extra punch somewhere. Could be a lack of characterization, could be an ordinariness. Hard to say. But generally, I rarely put a Grant comic down completely satisfied.

Some examples of complete satisfaction being achieved were his first two or three Doom Patrol arcs and his spotlight issue on Crazy Jane from same. Certain issues of All-Star were absolutlely perfect, too.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

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JLA I'm overall satisfied with because his Big Ideas and storytelling style were understandable and rarely lost me. His characterizations could have definitely been better, but I feel he did his job enough conveying their personalities and attitudes when considering it was a team book consisting almost entirely of characters who had their own books. And for better or worse, his take on Batman there was pretty damn iconic!

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Can we get more perspectives on Morrison and reactions to what's been said? I'd love to hear people expand more on his peaks and valleys and what makes his good stuff good and his not-so-good-stuff, well, not-so-good!

I'd love to hear from anyone who's read Alan Moore's Promethea and who'd like to compare it to Morrison's more high-concept works.

And I'd REALLY love to hear from anyone out there who actually liked Final Crisis!
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
My problem with Morrison is that he wants to recreate the sense of wonder of his beloved Silver Age but is too much of a smug cynic to pull it off. JLA felt too smug and calculated in its big-ness, and his take on Batman was all about being smug and calculating. That said, I did enjoy the "Crisis Times Five" arc because it struck a perfect balance that eluded Morrison on his other JLA arcs. I also think that "Seven Soldiers" had its moments (it's one of the few times I liked Zatanna), and that while I disagree with a lot of what he was saying in "Animal Man," at least he was still relatively unknown when he wrote it and he had not yet cultivated his mystique, which is one of the things I find most annoying about him (now, true, he was writing "Doom Patrol" at about the same time and I found what little I read of it excruciating -- weirdness for its own sake, and it was also chronologically where the smugness first surfaced.)
 

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Posted by Dev Em on :
 
Animal an was personally the best thing I've read of his in mainstream super-hero comics. It was big conceopt and extremely well thought out.

We3 was great.

Seven Soldiers was good, and I thought he pulled off the no team team pretty well.

His JLA was good overall, but was like watching a Bruckheimer movie. Big budget action flicks without any real heart. Not to say I didn't enjoy them, just that, believe it or not, they usually felt rushed.

Have not read his Final Crisis, or Batman stuff. Just not interesting to me at this point. I want to read FC, but have to wait for the trade at the library...which I have not been to in a while.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
First, Rogue and Lardy you guys have some good suggestions. Brave & Bold is a really good one, which I also considered. Astro City was also a really good one too which for whatever reason I hadn't thought about.

With my father, he puts a lot more focus on the artwork than I do. You'll recall that was one of the major gripes I have with Invincible, so I'm not sure if Invincible would work for him.

On the other hand, artwork is hardly the problem in superhero comic book these days. I feel for the most part, artists are doing great job. My major overall complaints in the comic book industry is many young artists grew up on comic books and don't draw from life (unlike the original artists in comics). This often leads to lack of backgrounds and limited scope of compositions. Also, there is no need to draw talking heads, there are dozens of ways to draw exciting things while people have conversations.

But I'm drifting again.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fanfic Lass:
My problem with Morrison is that he wants to recreate the sense of wonder of his beloved Silver Age but is too much of a smug cynic to pull it off. JLA felt too smug and calculated in its big-ness, and his take on Batman was all about being smug and calculating. That said, I did enjoy the "Crisis Times Five" arc because it struck a perfect balance that eluded Morrison on his other JLA arcs. I also think that "Seven Soldiers" had its moments (it's one of the few times I liked Zatanna), and that while I disagree with a lot of what he was saying in "Animal Man," at least he was still relatively unknown when he wrote it and he had not yet cultivated his mystique, which is one of the things I find most annoying about him (now, true, he was writing "Doom Patrol" at about the same time and I found what little I read of it excruciating -- weirdness for its own sake, and it was also chronologically where the smugness first surfaced.)

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Fanfic Lass brings up a great point (I'll have to get used to calling you that, Stealth ). Morrison, like the other writers who crossed the pond in the 80's and 90's are very much a product of the Thatcher era. They often have a pessimistic view stemming from a sense of betrayal they felt during the Thatcher years. I've read quite a few great interviews with them to see that (Morrison, Moore, Ennis, etc.).

The Silver Age, on the other hand, had a great sense of optimism. I'd go as far as saying it also helped give the sense of unlimited scope and grandeur. There was nothing that could not be explored; anything was possible. The writers reflected real life issues as well, of course: Lee & Kirby were famous for this; Robert Kanigher wrote a multitude of stories on racism; Otto Binder wrote a multitude of stories on miscommunication between political entities resulting in tremendous loss of life; this list goes on and on. But the general sense of the Silver Age was man could overcome its flaws. The one exception to the rule was probably Steve Ditko.

So anything Morrison does reflects this dichotomy of influences. I actually think Morrison has softened up a bit as hes aged though. He's said as much during the writing of All-Star Superman, which served as a cathartic "letting it go" phase in which he reflected on other things beyond his younger cynicism (influenced by things such as the death of his father, having a longterm loving relationship, etc.).

All that being said, I generally love his work, as I stated above. I think the spirit of it captures the Silver Age, but the nuts & bolts of it is anything but; he's not derivative, rather, he's actually creative.
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
And I'd REALLY love to hear from anyone out there who actually liked Final Crisis!

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What would you like to hear?

I think FC, when read as a complete story, including the Superman 3D experiment (but not necessarily the Rucka minis,) was a great story. It was the exact opposite of All Star Superman. Here was a story very much a commentary on modern comics, full of the melodrama we've been mired in, struggling to find that bit of hope and joy we all keep wanting in our books.

Seeing Darkseid's subversive, grounded and almost urbane conquest of the earth was frightening and disturbing. The unternet is used to broadcast the anti-life equation to EVERYONE! Let's face it- we are all connected these days. The boundaries of reality collapse and worlds collide as story itself become weak and corrupted by something as evil as Darkseid winning. Every time we've seen Darkseid, he's defeated, you have to wonder how bad ass could he be? Now we know- his very existence is poison.

Superman, the champion of worlds (universes really) has to struggle, beyond his might, to grasp concepts on a GOD-LIKE level. The battle isn't for a soul, it's for IDEA.

I do think it was a grand undertaking, and Grant could have done a better job (maybe the storytelling of the art too.) But it was very enjoyable read.

[ May 06, 2010, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: CJ Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Ceej, I will confess that Final Crisis had a few moments and scenes within it that worked for me. The problem was that they were few and far between and often went too long without follow-up.

Maybe part of the problem was the story was too BIG to be told in 7 issues, which may also be borne out with what I've heard is the essential nature of the Superman Beyond mini. If understanding or getting full enjoyment of the core story hinges upon reading what is supposed to be an auxiliary tie-in, then the core series would have to be considered a failure. I don't own and haven't read Superman Beyond, so I can only assume that what CJ and other reviewers hint at is true regarding its status as an essential piece of the puzzle.

Blackest Night had the reverse problem...it was too long in contrast to its story content. But none of its tie-ins were essential to the main story. If you just bought BN 1-8, I know that the reader woudn't be lost or feel they've missed something key to the story.

Of course, Final Crisis was also incredibly LATE, so it doesn't help the reader grasp Grant's concepts and retain the continuity when there are big delays throughout. Choosing J.G. Jones as artist was a mistake from the get-go. His track record spelled doom for FC being on time before issue one was ever published. Ivan Reis on BN was a sign from the beginning that BN wasn't gonna have that problem.

But even subtracting the delays and the Superman Beyond problems, Grant's script lacked clarity and suffered from rushed or incomplete characterization. Those are always the two big problems I've had with Grant's work as a whole. It's like I have to be on 'shrooms to see what he's doing while wondering why I should care about the characters in the first place!

Again, has anyone read Alan Moore's Promethea series? It's a textbook example of how a series can be both high concept and comprehensible while also giving you involving, sympathetic characters! It's an Alan Moore book that uses Morrison-like imagination but totally shows Morrison how it's done!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Never read it, actually. Have always meant to get around to it but still have not. I missed the boat on most of Moore's Image stuff and only have started working backwards toward in recent years...

Superman Beyond was actually pretty awesome and I think works great without FC. FC, however, needs it. I found FC to be a pretty boring event that was basically a waste of time. Maybe I'll reread and give it a second look--in the year 2017. LW posters, you can hold me to that then, but until then, I want to forget about it.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
Final Crisis only really works with Superman Beyond (and Submit) - basically everything that's in the Hardcover. I loved FC, but can understand why people had issues with it and I hold it up as Exhibit A when it comes to how a great story can be deflated by external influences in the comic world. With FC you had:

- A years worth of stories and countless tie-ins leading up to it that ultimately had nothing to do with the story and even worse contradicted it. Shameless attempt by DC to cash in without regard for the story and setting up their readers to be confused and angry.

- Increasing delays. Obviously not the first book, or even the first event book to do so, but with such a complex story it created a sense of "Stalled out"

- Publishing what were essentially three chapters of the book as spin-offs and not indicating how essential they were. "Submit" gave a better idea of the world after Anti-Life, which seems glossed over otherwise in the series proper leading the reader to shrug it off, and the entire last half of issue #7 makes NO sense without "Superman Beyond" to provide context around who the Monitors or Mandrakk really are.

All of these factors lay outside the story itself, but are legitimate reasons for the audience to be upset and not enjoy the story.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Damn! FC needs "Submit" as well? That's just piss-poor storytelling! I don't really care what you do with all the tie-ins, but if the core story suffers because you didn't buy certain tie-ins, it's inexcusable!

Yes, Blackest Night milked the HELL outta the tie-ins, but NOT A SINGLE ONE was essential reading! GL and GLC had some great between-issue stories and what essentially amount to DVD deleted scenes, but I'm absolutely sure you could read and enjoy BN without them just as you could enjoy the Lord of the Rings films in their theatrical versions without ever watching the extended editions.

I had been thinking that maybe I would re-read FC at some point and see how it works read all together with a fresh look, but now--I'd have to buy MORE to get the full effect?!?! WTF!!!

Stupid Infinite Crisis had the opposite problem: Something like FIVE miniseries lead up to it, don't come to a definite close and become parts of the plot to it! More than all the deaths, villainizations of former good guys and retreading stories, that was just damn unforgivable! I read OMAC Project and the Donna Troy thing, so I was completely LOST by the elements from all those other minis that I didn't care to purchase! It was damned confusing and left me feeling like an absolute CHUMP for buying this crap!

By comparison to IC and FC, Blackest Night comes out smelling like an effin' ROSE! Yes, you could argue that the story is incomplete with the segue into Brightest Day, but I'd argue BD is accessible and looks to be its own thing and have its own hook. And BN did build and resolve its own conflict internally. Other than being too long, I'd say it was a big improvement.

As for Marvel, I have no real comment on the crossovers themselves. I didn't buy or read Civil War, Secret Invasion or Siege, so I can't evaluate them. I can, however, evaluate what crossovers and shared storylines have done to books I loved. Those and price factors have lead me to cut my Marvels on the pull list down to three. By comparison, I get in the neighborhood of 20-25 DCU books.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
I'd really recommend the Superman Beyond issues, OT/Lard Lad, as based on previous discussions it seems it would be right up your ally. The last page is just killer and had me cheering.

Yes it's chalk full of heady ideas and crazy metatextual commentary (there's a scene where Superman literally reaches out to the reader), but it really does pull the whole thing together and meshed quite nicely with "All Star Superman" as well, in a themeatic sense.

Plus you get Captain Marvel, Dr. Manhattan, Superman, Ultraman and Nazi Superman all trying to work together (plus Merryman), how cool is that?

Here's a link to one of may favourite moments:

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album_view.php?gid=802&page=5

"Two syllables, then the lightning. Repeat after me..."

Gives me chills every time.

[ April 30, 2010, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: rouge ]
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.


1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.

2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.

3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.

4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.


You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.

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Not saying Cobie, myself or anyone here should be running DC. But with DCU Legacies coming out, ya got to wonder if someone there is reading this board.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Lately, a lot of things have gotten me thinking about something.

Compare Len Wein's astonishing return to comics writing with his JLA arc and now with DCU: Legacies to the way that other writers lose their spark, seemingly for it never to return.

I'm thinking in particular of Peter David, who only a year ago was the subject of a lovefest in this very thread instigated by yours truly. In hindsight, he was already turning out work below his usual standards, but at the time it seemed only temporary. But now? Can anyone, even his biggest fans (and I'm one of them), say that his heart still seems to be in his comics work?

PAD has weathered many well-documented professional and personal setbacks over the years which have sometimes impacted his work. But so has Wein -- his disastrous early 90s stint as Disney Comics EiC as an example of the former, his house burning down last year as an example of the latter. And yet he's currently doing the best writing of his career.

Which makes me wonder: why do some creators go into freefall and never come back up, while others, albeit far fewer, do? Is there hope for the Mark Waids and James Robinsons...and the PADs? Is Wein a symbol of hope, or an exception to the rule?
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
I was all prepared to give PAD the benefit of the doubt, with all the crossovers, and characters being snatched away by editorial fiat (Rahne), etc. but, really, I can't even muster a convincing apology for this run.

Every 'fight' ends with some smarter / stronger / better threat that X-Factor never really beats, as it either gets bored and leaves, or something happens that makes it not be a total massacre.

At some point, I kinda want the heroes to win something. Conclusively. I'm beyond tired of deus ex machina villains *I've never heard of* like Tryp or the dude with all the mutant powers ever or the old lady with the book who nearly sank Utopia.

X-Factor's last *good* story was in the Madrox limited series, IMO.

As a fan of Peter David, that's not fun for me to admit.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Any thoughts on other writers who either have or have not lost it, Set?
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
Most of the writers I'm really familiar with, I haven't read much from lately.

We're a few months out before I can say whether or not Levitz has or has not 'lost it,' for instance, and I haven't read anything new from Wolfman or Alan Davis or Walt Simonson or Alan Moore for years.

From what I've seen of the new Chris Claremont X-Men launch, he's pretty much lost it, 'though, although I sometimes think that, without someone like Cockrum or Byrne to dress up his ideas, he's never been all that dazzling, since he's got a lot of storylines, even back in 'the old days' that are just spectacularly bad... I think he can work really well, on a good team, but, on his own, not so much.

Many hot trendy writers (Bendis, Millar, Winnick, Johns), I'm not entirely convinced ever 'had it,' so I'd be a poor choice to judge whether or not they 'lost it.'

I'm not sure if Frank Miller 'lost it,' or if he's still telling the same stories, and our tastes have changed enough that we don't like them anymore...
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Alan Moore's last two installments of "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", while not perfect, are still well worth reading.

Frank Miller has always been overrated in my opinion, but his recent work shows such contempt for readers and for his chosen genres that I'm surprised he still gets published.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I hope PAD will eventually reclaim his mojo in the same way Len Wein did. I actually think its a bit of a natural cycle, where writers lose their way (either by losing their inspiration, not challenging themselves or just feeling sorry for themselves as writers often do) and then many eventually reclaiming their glory.

I do not collect the Marvel comics that are adaptations of classic stories but from what I understand, Roy Thomas writes all of these and they are actually *quite* good. My CBS guy told me that. I probably won't buy but that makes me happy. Because Roy has cranked out many a crappy story so I have hopes he can reclaim his glory days in a way.

In the 1950's, comic book publishers had written Jack Kirby off as a has-been who hadn't had a hit since Young Romance and then boom, he created Challengers of the Unknown and then went on to do the lion's share of creating Marvel Comics as we know it.

It's hard to say--is Len an exception to the rule or the best example of it? I'm trying to rack my brain searching for another good example but I'm having trouble.

Roger Stern is doing good Spider-Man stories still but I don't think Roger ever really lost it--he just wasn't getting work from creators for awhile until the Spider-editors brought him back.

Oh, one I think is making a comeback like Len: Kurt Busiek. I think he had a rough patch where I wasn't enjoying his work as much but lately his stuff seems to be back on the rise.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Regarding Frank Miller, I agree that his current work seems to either be the independent stuff that he writes only for himself or the stuff for the big two that I honestly feel is his way at saying 'fuck you' to Marvel and DC and fans who feel loyalty to the companies over the creators. I kind of love Frank Miller and his work and I've read hundreds of interviews with him, and I think he's certainly vindictive enough to convince DC to let him write a Batman story and then purposely make it ridiculous as a way to screw over DC and Batman fans.

I find it funny in a way, but also a little deserving of a
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
I agree that Roger Stern still has it, but he hasn't wowed me yet the way Len Wein has. The day that he does may come sooner rather than later -- at least that's what I hope.

I haven't read Roy Thomas's literary adaptations either. The last time I think Roy really seemed to have the fire inside was during the Todd McFarlane issues of Infinity Inc., and that was a looooong time ago.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Regarding Frank Miller, I agree that his current work seems to either be the independent stuff that he writes only for himself or the stuff for the big two that I honestly feel is his way at saying 'fuck you' to Marvel and DC and fans who feel loyalty to the companies over the creators. I kind of love Frank Miller and his work and I've read hundreds of interviews with him, and I think he's certainly vindictive enough to convince DC to let him write a Batman story and then purposely make it ridiculous as a way to screw over DC and Batman fans.

I find it funny in a way, but also a little deserving of a

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The words "indulgent" and "self" come to mind.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
The Frank Miller thing is funny because the Sin City movie made him the darling of the comic book community again, but internet-writers and bloggers seemed to have forgot that he basically hates comic book companies, fans and anyone who isn't also an artist (and even then, it's hard to say).

It was like the Joker becomes the new Mayor of Gotham and the people say: "hey why don't you plan the parade on Saturday?"
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
I think the Spirit movie eradicated any remaining goodwill towards Miller.

And I think you made a good point in a previous post about writers feeling sorry for themselves. I think this may be one of PAD's current problems. I stopped reading his blog a long time ago because the tone of his posts was getting so miserable.

It's also worth noting that while Wein was being one of DC's best editors during the 80s (New Teen Titans, All Star Squadron, Camelot 3000, Batman & the Outsiders, Watchmen, and his biggest coup of all, discovering Alan Moore and putting Moore on Swamp Thing) he was also writing Green Lantern and Blue Beetle stories that were not exactly setting the world on fire. And that after the aforementioned Disney disaster, he spent nearly two decades concentrating on TV writing.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
PAD is the person I was thinking of. I've been reading his "But I Digress..." columns since the early 1990's and he's become so winey in the last few years, and really comes across like he's feeling sorry for himself.

He says things like "if I was British I might get lumped into the same category as Neil Gaiman and the rest", or "woe is me, I need crossovers for the sales but I secretly don't want to partake in them".

He is also always reading the internet and getting upset by posters who attack him. This goes back to the mid-90's when I still had never even logged on the internet and is still going on now. He should have learned by now. Honestly--let it go! Stop getting distracted and get back to work!

The internet is full of millions of people who want to just say something and get a response; they often really don't feel the way they do about the topics but are just looking for someone to respond. PAD falls into this trap everytime and then looks for sympathy on his blog. Enough! If it bothers you that much then act like John Byrne.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
PAD's openness has definitely proven to be a double-edged sword.

Cobie, what are your thoughts on other writers that most people would agree have been on a downward spiral for a long time -- Mark Waid, James Robinson, et al?
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
Some writers definitely get burned out after there work has been continuously published for a long, long time. For them, I would recommend taking a break from writing for at least a year if they can afford to. Either that, or drop whatever they're doing and pursue something creator-owned.

I know PAD has Fallen Angel, but all indications are that he's burned out on that as well. I think PAD can afford to stop working for awhile with all the success he's had in comics and in novels. I think an extended break would do him a world of good.

As for Mark Waid, he's definitely already experiencing a rebirth at Boom! While Irredeemable and Incorruptible aren't as good as the best stuff he's done in the past, they're a huge improvement over his more recent stuff. The best sign yet is that both of those series are getting better as he goes on. And according to Cobie, The Unknown, which I haven't read yet, is right up there with the best work he's ever done. Right, Cobester?

Other creators worth mentioning who've had a recent resurgence are Keith Giffen and Dan Jurgens. Both really went off the radar for a long, extended spell but have returned with renewed vigor and relevance recently (Keith for a long pretty period of time now, since around 52 and Annihilation). Matt Wagner, too! He was definitely off the radar a few years as well before suddenly re-emerging.

Len Wein, huh? I was never a big fan, but I've purchased Legacies and expect to have a good read based on your word of mouth. CBR was a little less kind, saying that it was like he was aping Marvels. Fair or unfair?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Totally unfair regarding the comparison to Marvels. It really isn't similar at all I think, certainly not after one issue.

Lardy, you bring up a whole slew of examples I was trying to come up with! Matt Wagner, certainly, with his Green Hornet: Year One, Zorro and Madame Xanadu all being A+ level material that ranks among the very best in the industry. I will now buy *anything* he writes right now because I'm so impressed by him lately. Dan Jurgens as well--his artwork is as good as ever and his writing went from a longtime lull to hitting a level it's never had before. I thought his Booster Gold was nothing short of terrific.

Of course, the real best example right now is Keith Giffen. Keith was basically personna non-grata in the late 90's and early part of the 2000's; he was almost out of the industry it seemed. Then came Marvel's Annhilation which he spear-headed (inspired by his Thanos mini), and then he took over as art director on 52 and that just kicked off this wide-reaching Giffen rebirth at DC. Now he's got Doom Patrol and seems to have a hand in all kinds of things. And I think the quality is also really there too. He seems fresh and not repeating himself--the classic example of 'reinvigorated'.

James Robinson I feel is really terrible these days. Just awful and I don't know what happened. He left comics and went to the film industry--had a series of bombs and disasters and probably became jaded--returned to comics thinking maybe he could fall back on this genre and IMO has just been phoning it in. He thinks by putting in references to obscure continuity he can get the fans to be impressed, but guess what? This isn't 1995 anymore. Comic book fans have the internet and we know just as much as comic book creators do now. I know my Golden Age continuity possibly better than James Robinson. I'm not impressed when Tomahawk shows up in JLA. I'd be impressed if he could write a good story. His work lacks any sense of originality now. For a writer intent on bringing back classic characters, I think he should focus on bringing back classic story-telling.

Mark Waid definitely went through his own 'fade' for a few years. I personally thought his FF run was very weak and was the culmination of his low point, only outdone by his awful Legion threeboot. But then he went to BOOM! and Lardy says, he's experiencing a bit of a rebirth--but I'd add, its only the very beginnings of it.

Waid's Unknown is VERY good, and among the best stuff he's ever done IMO. Waid in a non-superhero comic just works perfectly here. I'm not reading those other titles Lardy is, but I am reading his occasional Spider-Man stories, and they've been very hit or miss--a few good ones but more weaker ones. So what I think is Waid has had a couple of bad years but he's turning it around; we're seeing the beginnings of it but he's not quite there yet. He needs to keep focusing on his creator-owned work at BOOM and regain his mojo. I think it'll happen. He suffers a little of the PAD syndrome in that he feels sorry for himself and thinks internet fandom owes him some sense of decorum. (Grow up. It's the internet--its the Roman mob of this era.) I'm hoping he does another Unknown mini and then starts up yet another franchise.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
While I did not care much for what Waid did to the Legion, I liked some of his individual ideas (his portrayal of Dreamy, for one, the character of Theena, for another), and I really liked his The Order team for Marvel (which had some fairly creative ideas, which surprised the hell out of me, since recent inventions of his, like Terror Firma, seemed so terribly uncreative, with genetic fire chick, generic air chick, generic earth dude, generic water dude, etc.)

His snarky comment at some comic convention that he was off the Legion, and that the sound everyone heard was thousands of Legion fans applauding seemed way bitter. I get that he's not a public speaker by trade, and, like many writers and artists, got shoved onto a stage with no inclination for that sort of thing, but that level of snippiness seemed uncalled-for.

Given how often people who make their careers off of public speaking and popularity contests (see, politician, ANY) shove their feet deep in their mouths and say outrageous things from time to time, it's probably unfair to jump on Waid's case for committing the terrible faux pas of saying what he was thinking, but it still rubbed me the wrong way, like someone either A) blaming the audience for not appreciating his genius (see Whedon, Joss) or B) saying something self-deprecating in a pathetic bid for someone to say, 'No, we love you!'
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Set:
While I did not care much for what Waid did to the Legion, I liked some of his individual ideas (his portrayal of Dreamy, for one, the character of Theena, for another), and I really liked his The Order team for Marvel (which had some fairly creative ideas, which surprised the hell out of me, since recent inventions of his, like Terror Firma, seemed so terribly uncreative, with genetic fire chick, generic air chick, generic earth dude, generic water dude, etc.)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Set:
His snarky comment at some comic convention that he was off the Legion, and that the sound everyone heard was thousands of Legion fans applauding seemed way bitter. I get that he's not a public speaker by trade, and, like many writers and artists, got shoved onto a stage with no inclination for that sort of thing, but that level of snippiness seemed uncalled-for.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
The Order was actually by Matt Fraction (and Barry--which is why you prob thought that).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
Some writers definitely get burned out after there work has been continuously published for a long, long time. For them, I would recommend taking a break from writing for at least a year if they can afford to. Either that, or drop whatever they're doing and pursue something creator-owned.

I know PAD has Fallen Angel, but all indications are that he's burned out on that as well. I think PAD can afford to stop working for awhile with all the success he's had in comics and in novels. I think an extended break would do him a world of good.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
As for Mark Waid, he's definitely already experiencing a rebirth at Boom! While Irredeemable and Incorruptible aren't as good as the best stuff he's done in the past, they're a huge improvement over his more recent stuff. The best sign yet is that both of those series are getting better as he goes on. And according to Cobie, The Unknown, which I haven't read yet, is right up there with the best work he's ever done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
Len Wein, huh? I was never a big fan, but I've purchased Legacies and expect to have a good read based on your word of mouth. CBR was a little less kind, saying that it was like he was aping Marvels. Fair or unfair?

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Have you read any of his best stuff from the 70s -- JLA, Swamp Thing, Phantom Stranger, Hulk?

I actually don't think the Marvels comparison is completely unfair, but there's two crucial differences which I think make Legacies the better book -- 1) Paul is more active particpant than passive observer, and 2) Paul still has a twinkle in his eye today, while Phil is jaded and bitter. The armchair analyst in me wonders if this is a reflection on the differing outlooks of their respective writers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
James Robinson I feel is really terrible these days. Just awful and I don't know what happened. He left comics and went to the film industry--had a series of bombs and disasters and probably became jaded--returned to comics thinking maybe he could fall back on this genre and IMO has just been phoning it in. He thinks by putting in references to obscure continuity he can get the fans to be impressed, but guess what? This isn't 1995 anymore. Comic book fans have the internet and we know just as much as comic book creators do now. I know my Golden Age continuity possibly better than James Robinson. I'm not impressed when Tomahawk shows up in JLA. I'd be impressed if he could write a good story. His work lacks any sense of originality now. For a writer intent on bringing back classic characters, I think he should focus on bringing back classic story-telling.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Outdoor Miner:
He has a way of letting things get to him, and jumping in when it might be best to hold back. Having the responsibility at BOOM! may have been good for him in this regard.

In his defense, this didn't happen in a vacumn. Any search of the archives of places like Newsarama and Usenet will turn up the sort of "criticism" that most of us wouldn't take if it were directed at us, and that this board generally doesn't accept.

The difference is he's a public figure in this hobby, and fairly or no is held to a different standard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Set:
In the final analysis, I think I'd prefer writers not publically responding to fan reaction, other than to say, 'thanks to those who liked it!' or something classy like that.

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But there are creators who can actively interact with the fans and do it with class. George Perez, to name one example.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
In all fairness I think I've read very little Len Wein over the course of my years. The main thing I can definitively say of his that I've read is GS X-Men #1, which some of you may have heard of.

I'm sure I've read more, but I think most of it was from before I really actively was aware of who was writing or drawing comics. I'd say I read the first few issues of Swamp Thing (from the same series before Moore took over). I think he wrote those and remember being captivated by a vampire storyline that I never saw the conclusion of. Also, pretty sure some of the JLA stories I've read were his, many of which were excellent. Among them was that Seven Soldiers of Victory story, right? Also I'm certain I've read some of his Batman and Spider-man work.

He's kinda like Marv Wolfman for me, I suppose. If it weren't for Marv's Titans work, he'd be practically anonymous to me. Same with Roy Thomas in a way. Those guys, I either missed most of their heydays or had no or little idea if they wrote what I've read because I was too young to notice!

I look forward to (re)discovering Mr. Wein's work thru Legacies!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Wolfman is a good comparison to Len in terms of being his contemporary at Marvel and DC at different times. Both are associated with specific franchises but actually have a much wider library of work.

Marv is also another one I'd like to see make yet another comeback. He really made waves with Tomb of Dracula and then a plethora of Marvel work (eventually leading to a run on Amazing Spider-Man) and then of course moved over to DC as we all know and did Teen Titans, Crisis and other things. I'd like to see Marv make a comeback too.

Marv is an extremely talented creator and its often overlooked at how good he was. While some of his broader picture decisions weren't always spot-on, he had a talent for all the things many modern creators miss: pacing, dialogue, using powers in situations besides slugfests, characters interacting in a way that explains continuity & personalities without making it seem like expositions, and of course, creating a larger story while making individual issues and 2-parters feel like complete stories.

I've love to see him take on a franchise again and have the chance to run with it.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Yes, indeed, Wein wrote the JLA/7SSoV classic.

Also, as the Hulk writer, he brought back my beloved Doc Samson from one-shot oblivion, among other things.

Marv Wolfman and Len Wein have been friends for decades, and I think their best work has a lot of good qualities in common, but somehow I don't see Wolfman ever making a comeback like Wein has. Maybe Wein never having a writing success on the level of a New Teen Titans has something to do with it. Maybe success spoiled Wolfman?

As for Mark Waid's current work, I wasn't impressed. It feels to me like he's trying to jump onto a bandwagon that already ran its course.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
"Byrne-stole" some Waid today, Stealth? Which ones? I will say that it's longform storytelling with Incorruptible and Irredeemable, so I'm not surprised with any dissatisfaction with a random individual issue.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Incorruptible and Irredeemable. It's not the longform storytelling I had a problem with, but Waid's apparent embracing of the Grim n Gritty Revivalism which peaked circa 2005-2008. I thought Waid was vocally opposed to Grim n Gritty?
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Come on, folks, there's plenty of hooks for further discussions:

- Did Mark Waid sell out to the Grim n Gritty Revivalism brigade?

- Was James Robinson a bit overpraised even before his decline?

- Did success spoil Marv Wolfman?
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
Well, I was never a Robinson fan. I disliked his "take a character and give them a dark secret to make them seem 'real' and 'adult'" trope. He went to that well all the time. I thought it was lazy and couldn't get into his Golden Age revisionism. When Johns stepped in on JSA he seemed to take the better points of Robinson's penchant for continuity retconning and made them seem fresh and original. Sadly, now Johns seems to have come to the point Robinson was at when I disliked him and Robinson has gotten even worse.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
- Waid has a tendency to go to the well one too many times, and he might have done so with Irredeemable & Incorruptible. But to be fair, I only ever gave Incrrouptible a one issue read and never read Irredeemable so I don't know. I'll reiterate though, his "Unknown" series is terrific, and is a great detective series that stands on its own and is unlike anything else in comics right now. I wish he'd do more stuff like that.

- I'll have to reread Starman again. But I did do exactly that a few years ago (early part of this past decade) and found it to be just as good as I originally thought it was. The Golden Age certainly stands out excellent. Even his old Firearm series from Ultraverse was good. But that's a pretty bare-bones body of work, so who knows? I think he was very good but something has happened and he's lost his way. Here's a reason why: the entire spirit of Starman was that it stood out on its own and existed off the side, which is a very real Golden Age-esque sensibility. These days, everything he does is all about the larger DCU, continuity, marketing, 'events' and other 80's-present sensibilities that have essentially ruined comic books. When did he start putting these things first? They aren't a bad thing when used in small doses (Starman certainly did that but in a more subtle, smaller degree). But when they take precedence, you've shit the bed and jumped the shark.

- Hard to say about Marv. I can't remember the last thing I liked of his but I haven't seen him get steady work for a long time. His final Titans stuff wasn't that great but that could be a case of a writer staying on a title perhaps way too long. When you say 'success', I'm a little unsure because I've always felt like even to this day Marv hasn't gotten a wide range of acclaim, despite writing Titans & Crisis. But maybe I missed the 80's interviews where he was worshipped? Certainly by the time I started caring about what interviewers, other fans and fanzines had to say, Marv wasn't held in the high regard that Perez is held in. Seems a bit unfair.

I'd love to see Marv get the chance to take a franchise that has been butchered over the years (not the Titans even though that fits the desciption) and try to give it another moment of glory. Something like Captain Atom.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Re: Robinson, I think Rouge makes a good point even though I don't entirely agree with. The "everybody has a secret" trope worked brilliantly in The Golden Age, IMO, but curdled into self-parody on certain aspects of Starman (Sadie is Will Payton's sister! Oh, really?) Also, the Golden Age was a halfway believeable portrait of my grandparents generation and the era of their youth, but Starman put that generation and that era on freaking pedestal. Yes, Ted was a fully-rounded character and there was the Ragdoll incident, but it was an isolated incident, not like, for example, Watchmen, or, for that matter, the first issue of DCU: Legacies where Wein does not flinch from portraying a harsh, complicated, and dangerous time. I could forgive Roy Thomas for idealizing the 40s in All Star Squadron, because that was the time of his childhood. Robinson was born in the early-mid 60s, so he has no excuse other than the most reactionary kind of overripe romanticism. In short, yes, Starman did certain things no comic had done before, but did it do all of the well? I personally don't think it did. (Same with the TV show Lost, but that's another topic for another forum.)

Re: Wolfman, the kind of success I was referring to was not fan acclaim, but commercial success. NTT sold truckloads and highly influential. Same with COIE. What I wonder is whether this degree of commercial success permanently took away the "hunger" that I think a writer needs in order to stay good.

Re: Waid, I'm not really into detective stuff these days, and I couldn't find Unknown at my local comic shop anyway.
 

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Posted by Officer Taylor on :
 
I'll stand by Irredeemable and my assessment of it over on Random Review corner. It's a flawed book, but "grim n' gritty" is a little too shoehorning a term for my tastes. It's got plenty of other merit including some complexity in theme. The characters have been a little flat, but that's improving a lot.

"Grim n' Gritty", to me, implies two-dimensional/black & white/violence for violence's sake--and that ain't the Irredeemable/Incorruptible Waidverse at all. Most DC and Marvel books have more violence than these titles, have very little thematic value and are simpler in their moral divisions.

Yeah, these are not shiny, happy heroes, but calling them grim n' gritty does Mark Waid and Boom! Studios a disservice. I respect your opinion, FL, but I'll respectfully disagree and assert that Waid is turning in work worthy of his heyday.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
OT, I just read your assessment, and it's enough to convince me to give the book another chance. Maybe I'll browse through the second trade, since it sounds like that's where the story picks up steam.

And I should clarify that I don't have anything against Waid exploring the dark side of superpowers. I loved Empire. The difference to me is that Empire was ground-breaking and briskly paced, where Irredeemable seems "decompressed" in a way that was fashionable in the recent past but is currently becoming unfashionable, as well as highly derivative of Miracleman and Squadron Supreme and other stories. Despite what might have seemed like a rather dismissive reaction to Irredeemable, I really did WANT to like it. Maybe the second time around will be different.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanfic Lass:
Re: Wolfman, the kind of success I was referring to was not fan acclaim, but commercial success. NTT sold truckloads and highly influential. Same with COIE. What I wonder is whether this degree of commercial success permanently took away the "hunger" that I think a writer needs in order to stay good.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fanfic Lass:
OT, I just read your assessment, and it's enough to convince me to give the book another chance. Maybe I'll browse through the second trade, since it sounds like that's where the story picks up steam.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
If you decide to try it, consider trades or buying complete issue sets on eBay. If you pick up a random issue, I think you won't be all that impressed.

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Criticizing it for being decompressed is a very fair criticism! I'm still enjoying it enough in monthly doses to continue supporting Irredeemable in serialized form, but I can see how the trades would be much more gratifying. That's part of what I take into account in my reviews is whether or not to recommend the trades or the floppies, and this one was squarely on the trade side.

However. any time you have an intricate, serialized series such as this one, I'd NEVER recommend skipping to the second trade, Stealth--even if the second trade is "better". There's a decent level of accessibility in each issue, but I couldn't imagine starting this one in medias res. Maybe it's more practical than doing same with, say, The Walking Dead, but I'd definitely say start from the beginning in this case. (This assumes you read an individual issue and not the first trade, of course--you only said that you'd check out "the floppies", so I'm not sure.)

That said, I still can't promise that you'll like them!
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
 
Thanks, OT.

I'll start with the first trade.

And I'll definitely share my thoughts.
 

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Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Set, you bring up a really good point about creators being 'labeled' as genius and then buying into it; and then pushing back so their subsequent works take on all sorts of bad qualities.

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