posted
Continuity is a strange beast. In comic book series that run for decades there are bound to be some inconsistencies and changes. I can accept that. There needs to be a balance, however, if the story is going to have meaning. I certainly don't want to feel that nothing that happens in a story has any meaning, or that it is simply going to be disregarded by the next writer.
Johns, Didio and their supporters, in my opinion, have set themselves up to a higher level of scrutiny. They've done this by running to embrace silver age mythos as just about the only thing in the DC Universe that matters. There is a certain element of the fan base that disregarded earlier pleas to lighten up in order to accept new ideas, concepts, characters, and reboots as a means of keeping the medium fresh. Green Lantern, Superman, Flash and the Legion have now been rebooted again in an effort to satisfy those who wouldn't or couldn't accept change. Should the rest of us, now, lighten up about the inconsistencies and potholes in these new/old/classic/original retroboot/ approximate versions? It's a hard pill for me to swallow.
Comments specific to Adventure #4: This was Henry's best effort to date. I certainly won't mind if he sticks around on a rotating basis when Levitz takes over. This is the first time in the new Adventure run that the story actually felt like a story instead of a preview of coming attractions.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I can't be bothered to read this Superboy Prime drek. I hate the whole Earth Prime concept, and the art didn't do much for me either. Finding out that the 3-boot Legion is from Earth Prime was a huge disappointment for me. They've now lost any respect I may have had for them. The whole concept of "I did it because I'm written that way" rings of "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn this way," or "it's not my fault, the devil made me do it." It absolves all characters of independent motivation and responsibility and turns them into sugar-free diet characters, imho.
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
As Dr. Evil would say - "Well it's true! It's true! You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough"
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Except maybe the writers who are paid to tell the stories. How hard would it be to be consistent. Looking forward to Paul's run. I hope he finds a way to ignore Johns' run as much as Johns has ignored what Paul wrote.
Total agreement here. If the writers being paid to write Legion stories can't be bothered to even *try* to get the characters right, then what's *my* motivation to reward them with my shiny pennies?
I do not get the unconditional man-love being sent Geoff Johns way for making Cosmic Boy the embodiment of 'the American Way', ressurecting Karate Kid off-panel so that he could be killed again and Wildfire into the 12th iteration of Red Tornado.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I just don't understand why a writer/Editorial team would work so hard to restore a continuity only to ignore it and it's characters and their stories at every turn.
I could maybe accept those changes necessitated by the departure of Supergirl and Superboy's classic stories for the greater whole of the DCU, but it's those changes that Set mentions along with Emerald Empress and Triplicate Girl's(?) unexplained resurrections and Mordru, Blok, Wildfire and Validus' regressions, Star Boy/Man's changed powers, etc., etc.
Just too much crap to just accept for my taste and I like to complain about it whenever it urks me.
I hope Paul Levitz's run makes sense out of it all. I may not have agreed with all of the changes Paul (with Keith and Steve and others) made during the Baxter era, but if this is the Legion were supposed to be reading about now, then I'd personally prefer to read about their continued adventures and not these mismatched, warped doppelgangers we've been reading these last few years.
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
That's the thing. It's not just continuity mistakes. From the very introduction of this version, they seem to have gone out of their way to emphasize differences between this and the original continuity, while at the same time advertising it as the original and playing on fans' emotional attachments to the old stories. It's just bizarre.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
To me, Adventure #4 doesn't feel quite right. It's a little like the issues leading up to #50.
The way Blok was supposed to be transforming in the little panel previews really isn't how it played out. So he looses a few pieces of rock, Mordru POISONED him?, and tada, he's a boy?! This feels like a 'clear out, leave these characters for Paul to play with'.
Which is okay if Johns had something terrible planned for them.
I just don't know that I think that anything new or momentous is going to happen these next few issues until Paul's back.
Anyway, Glen says that the Magic Wars happened, so Pol is dead, Garth and Imra have had their twins which Darkseid stole one of, and Ayla & Brin are split up. Alright, we go from there.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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I looked at the picture again and I think this is close. The one with the cowel looks a lot more like a female this time and I noticed the tie with the woman at the bottom so I guess she's not Glorith.
I don't know who 'Kid Devil' is but I think that middle one on Mysa's right looks a lot like Evillo, too.
I hate the thought of the 3 on the left being killed by Mordru. How can Mysa keep them there and still claim to be 'good'?
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I wish I could, but I just cannot understand all the hate there is for this version of the team on this site. I just can't.
After the years of crap Legion-in-name-only characters and stories we've had with the threeboot and last part of the reboot I would've thought that a well-drawn, fairly well-written (subject to personal opinion of course) 99% exact approximation of the version of this team that made most of us a fan in the first place would've been welcomed by fans with open and enthusiastic arms.
But they haven't been. And lots of posters here whose viewpoints I normally respect/agree with seem to hate this version with a passion... while I'm loving it.
So what's going on? Someone help me understand.
I get the impression from Nightcrawler's comments that he doesn't like the point in time that Geoff chose to pluck this team from (i.e. around the time of the first Crisis) which thereby negates some of the later stories told about this team. Is that correct Gary? You maybe would've preferred Geoff pluck this team from later in time, say after the Magic Wars so that all of Paul's stories are valid?
I can kinda understand that if so. I think the murkiness of which point in time this team comes from exactly (and therefore what has or hasn't happened yet) is one of the things that annoys me most about this team too. But whereas I can look beyond this problem for now maybe some of you are unable to? Yes? No? (Not trying to put words in anyone's mouths - just trying to understand.)
I agree that things would've been much simpler and clearer if Geoff had brought in the team as they were post-Baxter, pre-Five Years later but I can also totally understand why he chose the period he did.
The Crisis-era version of this team are arguably the most widely-recognised, fondly remembered version of this team. So at a time when DC seem to be trying to return most of their franchises to their "classic" incarnations it makes sense that Geoff would choose that team to re-introduce.
In doing so he also avoided having to waste time explaining away all the late-Baxter developments that he maybe didn't agree with (i.e Mon-el, Duo Damsel and Emerald Empress dying, Wildfire and Blok's new bodies, the Magic Wars, etc.). And seeing the focus that a living Mon-el and an original-bodied Blok and Wildfire have had in the books so far I think that theory makes sense.
Other posters like Set and EDE seem to have problems with some of the new developments that have been introduced to the team since their return. I can understand some of those complaints ('Wildfire is Red Tornado' is one of the stupidest retcons EVER and will hopefully never be mentioned again - though that was more Meltzer's doing than Johns' - and bringing Karate Kid back just to kill him again was... weird) but I don't get why people are projecting their hatred of those singular developments into a hatred of this whole version/direction of the team?
Especially when...
a) its not like all of the other Legion version/teams haven't had things we didn't like about them (Jarth anyone? Mass murdering Terra Firma as heroes suddenly?) yet people didn't seem so willing to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" with them as they do with this one.
b) this obviously isn't the exact pre-Crisis team (how could it be with all of the Superboy/Supergirl kerfuffles) but of the 5YL, reboot and threeboot teams it is certainly the closest we've had so far - and yet the main thing people keep complaining about are the differences! Why can't this version catch the break from fans that those other versions did?
and
c) maybe it's just me, but haven't there been enough new developments with this team that excite the fans into letting some of those other problems slide? Chameleon Girl and Night Girl as respected new members? Rainbow Girl as a viable new heroine for the first time in 40 years? The SUBS returned and capable while retaining their popular humourous side? The prospect of a LSV Espionage Squad? The Legion's elevated presence across the DCU and the rumours they're slated to play an important role in next year's "event"? Seeing characters like Blok, Dawnstar, Polar Boy and Bouncing Boy on a regular basis for the first time in AGES? And so on. I realise that's all highly subjective but don't the good things outweigh the bad for some of you like they do for me?
Help me understand people.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I don't hate the retroboot. I do resent the way DC was trying to shove it down my throat disguised as the original Legion, while undercutting the threeboot (which I liked, mostly, and which had some traces of originality to it that the retroboot entirely lacks).
What I want out of the retroboot is for it to get started. So far we've just had a lot of introduction; we haven't seen just a regular Legion story starring the retroboot Legion yet. Now that Levitz is taking over, we'll never know what kind of job Johns could have done on the Legion, because all Johns's stuff was setup.
I also resent the notion that I'm supposed to be grateful to have the retroboot Legion instead of the reboot or threeboot Legion. I liked the reboot and threeboot Legions, and in my mind they're every bit as valid as the original Legion. So is the retroboot, of course, but let's not forget that Johns and Meltzer worked very hard to establish that the retroboot was quite different from the original Legion (which I don't mind, not at all, but I'm sick of people not admitting that the differences exist). So I don't see where I'm better off. (Especially since there is no Legion comic coming out right now, and it's not clear how long we're going to have to wait for one.)
None of this is the fault of the retroboot Legion, of course. I'll be happy to read a regular comic about the retroboot Legion (if DC ever gets off the dime with it), because it is a Legion comic. Just because many fans have found themselves able to transfer their emotional investment in the original Legion over to this Legion doesn't mean that it's inherently a superior version, and I'm not going to pretend that it is. It'll have to earn that status like Levitz did and Giffen and the Bierbaums did and Abnett and Lanning did.
posted
^^^ Thanks Matthew E. I can understand some of that thinking.
I imagine anyone who was a fan of the threeboot would be somewhat annoyed by the way that series was cancelled to make way for this one. And maybe some of them/you hold that fact against this team/book in some way.
I don't think that's a very fair reaction (I remember being irked by all those people who hated the reboot - of which I was a huge fan, expecially its early years - just because it wasn't the preboot) but it is an honest reaction, and I'm sure I've had exactly the same reaction to changes made to some of my own favourite comic properties.
I'm confused when you write that you "resent the way DC was trying to shove [the retroboot] down [your] throat" while in the next paragraph complaining that we haven't seen enough of them yet, though.
My reading is obviously different to yours but I haven't felt like DC has rammed anything down my throat Legion-wise yet. I wish they would because I share your frustration about the lack of a Legion head-lining book on the stands.
We know one is coming though and that, along with the juicy 8-11 pages we've had in Adventure Comics over the last few months and their recent guest appearances in various other DCU books of late has been enough to wet my appetite for what will I hope be the succulent main course when Paul Levitz takes over this team next year.
As for that old "differences between pre- and retro-boots" chestnut (which seems to be the main sticking point with some fans) well, I'm not sure who you've been talking to but I don't know of anyone who would argue that nothing has been changed between the two boots. The differences are right there on every page - from the costumes to the membership to the references to all sorts of things. Obviously some things are different about this 'boot.
I think my point (and maybe the point of those others you've been talking to) is that most of those changes are either too insignificant (in comparison to changes that were made in other 'boots) to really worry about or else just a future story away from being explained.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Blacula: I'm confused when you write that you "resent the way DC was trying to shove [the retroboot] down [your] throat" while in the next paragraph complaining that we haven't seen enough of them yet, though.
It's not that we haven't seen a lot of the retroboot Legion. We have seen a lot of them. But what we've seen of them has mostly been a) stories in which the Legion is not the main focus, b) stories that are meant to introduce us to the retroboot Legion in some way, and c) stories that are intended to establish some kind of status quo.
Well, you can't tell anything about a superhero team from stories like that. The stories that will reveal to us how well this Legion is working are the stories that can be summed up as, "some Legionnaires have an adventure." The Sun Boy/Polar Boy backup in Adventure #3 was the only one of those we've had so far. But the retroboot Legion has been around for, what, two and a half years? Three years?
As I've said before, it's been a lot of feathers and not much chicken.
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
I am happy to give the retroboot Legion my support. I hated the treeboot concept and was extatic when the retroboot showed up.
Since then, Johns has added so many little retcons that take away some of the thrill of seeing the originals again.
That said a full book of the Retroboot is the best option available to Legion fans. It is a reboot - the fifth after post Crisis, Glorithverse, post Zero Hour and the eat it grandpa lot. But not since the middle of the post Crisis run before Levitz seemd bent on change for the sake of it - restoring Validus, killing the Empress, killing/exiling Quislet, killing Magnetic Kid and changing the membership every month - have we had a team that more closely represented the original Legion.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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