quote:Originally posted by cleome45: MFC, I think it's time to face it: An awful lot of writers and editors at the Big Two are hung up on the idea that the fantasy of Eternal Swinging Bachelorhood is what sells. To their minds, long-term marriages or relationships are just icky.
No more Peter/MJ, no more Clark/Lois, etc. They've determined, rightly or wrongly, that "ESB" is what sells and now the phenomenon is going to spread everywhere.
For the record, I agree with you that an actual story, instead of hamfisted, implausible explanations after the fact, would make it all somewhat more bearable.
I think it's more laziness on the part of the writers than any idea that ESB sells. The fact is that unmarried characters are easier to write. I remember when Barry Allen first got married writers complained that it limited what they could do with the character. So naturally they killed Iris Allen off (of course they brought her back eventually, but hey, this is comics, right?)
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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I've really gotten tired of modern comic book storytelling with major events/crisises at the top of my list of peeves. It used to be that deaths were relatively rare events. With a a story arc named "the Culling" I'd assume that there will be more than one or even two deaths this time around.
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: I've really gotten tired of modern comic book storytelling with major events/crisises at the top of my list of peeves. It used to be that deaths were relatively rare events. With a a story arc named "the Culling" I'd assume that there will be more than one or even two deaths this time around.
Since around 1986 or so (starting with Crisis On Infinite Earths) both DC and Marvel comics have been event-driven (as opposed to plot or character driven). Blame the fans who seem compelled to buy two copies of every "event" comic that comes out.
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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I've gotten very tired of the writer complaint that they're so limited by couples who stay together. What's really boring is reading about or watching people who never mature, who never establish any real relationships, married or not.
In all of the Legion years, there've been, what, 3 or 4 marriages of leading characters and the only ones still married are no longer Legionnaires - Imra & Garth and Lu & Chuck. Val died almost immediately after he and Jeckie married, or that's how it seemed.
Jo and Tinya married in another reality, IIRc, which doesn't count anymore.
Anyway, I loved Gim's looks in LOST this month, even if it wasn't really him. sigh If he'd been drawn like that through the years, he'd have been a much more popular character, I think. Just sayin'.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Remember that the two current Legion books are grouped with DC's other teenage character books. (What do they call it...Young Justice?) That's why we're getting more stories featuring young, less experienced Academy students and fewer stories involving established characters with more mature relationships...unless you count bedroom scenes.
The most mature relationship we've seen is Chuck's and Luornu's, and they're pretty much just the parent figures of the Academy students. As heroes, they're has-beens.
-------------------- "Been killed--didn't like it." (Duplicate Damsel, Legion of Super-Heroes #10)
From: Groga | Registered: Aug 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by the Hermit: ...I think it's more laziness on the part of the writers than any idea that ESB sells. The fact is that unmarried characters are easier to write...
Okay, I'll bite, Hermit. Why is it somehow easier to write unmarried characters?
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: I've really gotten tired of modern comic book storytelling with major events/crisises at the top of my list of peeves. It used to be that deaths were relatively rare events. With a a story arc named "the Culling" I'd assume that there will be more than one or even two deaths this time around.
Well, I never bought multiple issues of Crisis I, but as I've said before: If I could go back in time and un-buy the whole damn thing, I would.
I mean, portions of it have merit, but in retrospect supporting it (not to mention the horror that was Secret Wars-- ick.) was about the worst of all possible messages I could have sent to the people in charge.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Okay, I'll bite, Hermit. Why is it somehow easier to write unmarried characters?
Maybe because there are far fewer cliches for hack writers to fall back on with married characters?
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Okay, I'll bite, Hermit. Why is it somehow easier to write unmarried characters?
Because courtship = hero's quest = enjoyable root of conflict. Marriage = happily ever after.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Hermit, Chaim, sorry. I have to disagree with you both. There are about ten billion cliches attached to single heroes. I mean, I'm enjoying Mark Waid's Daredevil stuff, and yet a big part of me knows that there's no point in feeling any real interest or any warm fuzzies about the romantic subplot. We all know by now that Matt and the Woman du Jour won't be happy for long. They'll break up, and there's about a 99% chance that she'll be maimed or die horribly at some point. That's pretty much "a thing" with modern-day superheroes. Hell, are ANY of Daredevil's exes still alive?
And I'm not even going to comment about the total lack of maturity indicated by the idea from the people in charge that "happily ever after" is the only way to go in depicting a long-term relationship. They can give us "mature content" that includes graphic violence, ham-fisted political metaphors, and boobs hanging out everywhere. But, no, they can't devote a few panels every couple of issues to a married or long-term couple because... uh, it's too grown-up and ewwww... so totally not fun. Or something.
Bleah. If the Legion creative team is that damn bored with the whole idea of people waking up every day next to the same person, I'd rather see the characters written out of the narrative altogether (like Garth and Imra) than constantly kicked around (and given bizarre, inexplicable or badly explained personality transplants) in the name of "edgy" eternal singledom.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
My thing is if Yera and Gim broke up then why did he quit the Legion? The process of detachment had begun. Yes, he surely still had feelings for her, but it doesn't make sense that he would just walk away from his greatest support system and source of his sense of purpose.
quote:Hermit, Chaim, sorry. I have to disagree with you both. There are about ten billion cliches attached to single heroes....And I'm not even going to comment about the total lack of maturity indicated by the idea from the people in charge that "happily ever after" is the only way to go in depicting a long-term relationship....But, no, they can't devote a few panels every couple of issues to a married or long-term couple because... uh, it's too grown-up and ewwww... so totally not fun. Or something.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Good writers don't settle for the trite cliches, and those are the types who are able to make married super-heroes work. But way too many out there are lazy and want to write by-the-numbers.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by cleome45: Hermit, Chaim, sorry. I have to disagree with you both. There are about ten billion cliches attached to single heroes. I mean, I'm enjoying Mark Waid's Daredevil stuff, and yet a big part of me knows that there's no point in feeling any real interest or any warm fuzzies about the romantic subplot. We all know by now that Matt and the Woman du Jour won't be happy for long. They'll break up, and there's about a 99% chance that she'll be maimed or die horribly at some point. That's pretty much "a thing" with modern-day superheroes. Hell, are ANY of Daredevil's exes still alive?
Actually, I completely agree with you on all points. In fact, the point I was trying to make is that single characters are easier to write because of the wealth of cliches available to writers whose emphasis is on big events rather than traditional story elements such as plot and characterization. The fact is that well-written comics featuring married characters do exist (see Animal Man), but that DC and Marvel have been hell-bent on outdoing each other with huge headline-grabbing company-wide world-changing events ever since the 1980s and as long as that kind of stuff sells (and it does, unfortunately) I don't see the trend changing anytime soon.
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: So, in a thousand years, relationships haven't changed a bit. That's encouraging.
Superheroes are even worse than the regular people, like police officers?
DOES Levitz need to move on? Who would DC get? The LOST writers aren't very popular. Johns wasn't either.
If Levitz had to be replaced by anyone, I say Chris Roberson.
Star Trek/Legion wasn't award winning, but he's got a clear love of Legion lore. He brought back Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Kent even if he couldn't call her Laurel.
His work on I Zombie is amazing and it's clear he knows how to write gay characters.
If not Chris, then Jeff Lemire. Because he's, he's just great.
-------------------- I want to be hated by lies - Bring Back Lian Harper
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No more Peter/MJ, no more Clark/Lois, etc. They've determined, rightly or wrongly, that "ESB" is what sells and now the phenomenon is going to spread everywhere.
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