posted
Hmm. I disagree with those of you who feel that in the past, Levitz handled Lu and Chuck well. They were the first characters he wrote out of the main team on two separate occasions of returning to write the LSH. In the issue of EARTHWAR where Lu, Chuck, Imra and Garth fight together, Lu does not have one single line of dialogue, IIRC.
Which, I will say, does make his most recent handling of them against the Dominators nothing less than EXCELLENT. I was absolutely terrified to read those issues, but I applaud his handling of them there.
Still, I believe Mr. Levitz has a more Bates-esque idea of what (and who) the LSH is...
quote:Originally posted by Invisible Brainiac: It's odd that if Bates wanted to remove the "less cool and powerful" Legionnaires, then why didn't he use Tyroc and Chemical King more often? Was it the "vagueness" of their powers (though as Imskian78 says, Chemical King's powers are broad but they're NOT really hard to understand).
At the very least, though, Lyle died a hero while BB and DD exited due to a happy marriage.
And Tenzil rallied the Legion to beat the Super Rejects, so he got a good spotlight too.
Science just wasn't Bates' thing at that point in his career. He probably slept through his high school chemistry class and had no clue or initiative to make use of Chemical King. He is also well known for not wanting to write more than a few characters in a story (example - Chuck and Lu's wedding where only a handful of Legionnaires go after Starfinger). Plus don't forget he also wrote out Supergirl during this period.
I started reading the Legion with #208. That Grell cover of Superboy got my attention. Then the mention of Superboy's "brother" (Mon-El), Clark having young parents instead of senior citizens, and the literally tons of other teen heroes (from the future!) that Superboy was hanging with got me to buy the issue. I was hooked and haven't an missed an issue since.
I remember reading through the reprints in #208 and other Superman reprints of the time that had Legion appearances, and thinking - who are all these interesting characters that were kicked to the curb. In particular I liked Invisible Kid, only to find out he had died a few issues before I started reading. So I expected the issue where he died to be a big deal. Boy was I disappointed when I finally read that story. It was like Bates saying "you are the weakest link. goodbye!" to Lyle, who I found later was a character that really rocked under Shooter's pen. And then that ending where Tinya sheds a tear and then they are all like oh well, now let's go eat.
In Bates defense, I think he had a cool Star Trek like plot in his head and decided to run with it and surprisingly (for that time period) his editor didn't say no.
Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Colossal Boy: So I expected the issue where he died to be a big deal. Boy was I disappointed when I finally read that story. It was like Bates saying "you are the weakest link. goodbye!" to Lyle, who I found later was a character that really rocked under Shooter's pen. And then that ending where Tinya sheds a tear and then they are all like oh well, now let's go eat.
I didn't get the impression that Lyle was the "weakest link" at all. He was negligent in his duty to guard the museum, but that shows he was human, not weak.
The more I think about it, the more I'm struck by the differences between Lyle's death (written by Bates) and Chemical King's death (written by Levitz) 25 issues later. Lyle went out as a hero with a chance to redeem himself after his error in abandoning his post. He also went out with a ray of hope.
Chem, on the other hand, went out as a whining, self-pitying person who never realized his true worth, even when he died preventing a war. Whereas Phantom Girl cried tears of joy for Lyle (and, really, what's wrong with that?), Chem's death provoked the Legionnaires into an angry, vengeful pursuit of the man responsible for his death.
Neither approach is necessarily better or worse than the other--and the circumstances of Chem's death might have been more in keeping with the more negative outlook and darker storytelling styles of the times--but I do think Lyle went out in a much better way than Chem did.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Set: [I feel the same way about magic characters. The White Witch, and now Glorith, run the risk of being able to waggle their fingers and do anything.
I have the same problem with magic characters. It's kind of funny - some of the Legion's best stories have involved Mordru, Darkseid, and the Time Trapper, but...I don't like them as villains. What can they actually do? About anything. And why does the Legion win? because the writer wants them to.
From: Cincinnati | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by lancesrealm: It's kind of funny - some of the Legion's best stories have involved Mordru, Darkseid, and the Time Trapper, but...I don't like them as villains. What can they actually do? About anything. And why does the Legion win? because the writer wants them to.
Mordru has a powerful weakness that can be played against him, so that's at least something (not ideal, but something).
Darkseid tends to stick to a very specific set of powers. He's as strong as he wants to be, as tough as a Kryptonian, he can make boom tubes, and he uses his Omega Effect eyebeams to disintegrate or teleport people or things. His individual powers are brutal, but he rarely pulls crap like weather control or shapechanging or control of a planet's magnetic fields out of his butt. He's a surprisingly 'usable' uber-villain, compared to some.
Time Trapper, yeah, there's no excuse for a time manipulator on his scale to ever lose. He can look ahead and never be surprised by any tactic, and counter it before even Brainiac 5 has thought of it, and if he ever *does* lose, he can call a time-out and retcon his loss into a victory. He's pretty much unbeatable, or, should be.
I do dislike when heroes win the day, and it feels unearned. They go in with little or no planning, take it on the chin, and win pretty much by writer fiat, 'because they got angry' or whatever. Unless you're the Incredible Hulk, 'getting angry' or 'this time it's personal!' doesn't provide any real tactical advantange, and might even make you *less* likely to win...
I do miss the Silver Age (and, occasionally, later) tendency for the heroes to sometimes cunningly outwit the villains. "Ha! The League of Super-Assassins only *thought* they killed us, because we faked our deaths!"
In a team with Dream Girl and Brainiac 5, that sort of thing should still happen from time to time, and the Legion not consistently be portrayed as 'too late to stop!' stuff, and caught off guard, with the villains always one step ahead of them.
[ September 11, 2012, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Set ]
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I absolutely love the Bates/Grell Legion stories. Many of today's comic fans complain about decompression in modern comics. The Bates/Grell team was the total opposite end of the spectrum. Complete compression. Small teams. A little bit of characterization and personal interaction by the team in the introduction. Here's your villain/conflict. Here's your obstacle in overcoming that villain. Here's your trope for overcoming that conflict, and a couple cute lines of characterization to wrap it all up. Bam. There's your story - completed in 17 pages. Some of these issues contained two stories, so the process was complete in half the time. Grell's open style with little to no attention to background detail gave the whole thing a wide open feeling even though it the storytelling was actually very tight. He was able to play with Cockrums stunning designs and give them his full focus. So you had a visually appealing, very cool looking Legion. It was a formula that worked well for the team.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Set:
I do dislike when heroes win the day, and it feels unearned. They go in with little or no planning, take it on the chin, and win pretty much by writer fiat, 'because they got angry' or whatever. Unless you're the Incredible Hulk, 'getting angry' or 'this time it's personal!' doesn't provide any real tactical advantange, and might even make you *less* likely to win...
I do miss the Silver Age (and, occasionally, later) tendency for the heroes to sometimes cunningly outwit the villains. "Ha! The League of Super-Assassins only *thought* they killed us, because we faked our deaths!"
In a team with Dream Girl and Brainiac 5, that sort of thing should still happen from time to time, and the Legion not consistently be portrayed as 'too late to stop!' stuff, and caught off guard, with the villains always one step ahead of them.
I was actually kind of bothered by this kind of thing in the latest arc, when the "ragtag" Legionnaires basically get overcome by the Dominators one issue, and then escape and pretty much overcome the Dominators the next issue, with the main difference being not any brilliant plan on the Legionnaires part, but that "Hey, it's the last issue, so they've got to win this time!" I mean... there's slight differences, since Comet Queen "betrayed" them in the first fight (though that only really took out Brainy), and Mon-El/Ultra Boy showed up at the very end of the second fight to finish off the Daximator (who wasn't in play in the previous fight), but for the most part, it just seemed to me like the Legionnaires suddenly became more competent because it was the appropriate point in the story for them to win.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Good point HWW on how Legionnaires exits were handled in such a positive way as compared to these days.
One of my favorites during this run: "Soljer's Private War"
Thanks, Cobie.
"Soljer's Private War" was different in that it was darker than most Legion stories of that era. However, I liked it because "Soljer" wasn't truly a villain; he was just a soldier doing his job. The story also touched on all kinds of themes, such as the horrors of war, reality versus perception, and how soldiers are or aren't remembered long after their sacrifices.
Most Legion stories of that time explored themes relevant to teenagers (e.g., insecurity, fitting in, proving one is not "the weakest link"). "Soljer's Private War" was one of the few that connected to more adult themes and gave the reader much to think about.
[ September 11, 2012, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jerry: I absolutely love the Bates/Grell Legion stories. Many of today's comic fans complain about decompression in modern comics. The Bates/Grell team was the total opposite end of the spectrum. Complete compression. Small teams. A little bit of characterization and personal interaction by the team in the introduction. Here's your villain/conflict. Here's your obstacle in overcoming that villain. Here's your trope for overcoming that conflict, and a couple cute lines of characterization to wrap it all up. Bam. There's your story - completed in 17 pages. Some of these issues contained two stories, so the process was complete in half the time. Grell's open style with little to no attention to background detail gave the whole thing a wide open feeling even though it the storytelling was actually very tight. He was able to play with Cockrums stunning designs and give them his full focus. So you had a visually appealing, very cool looking Legion. It was a formula that worked well for the team.
This is the best description ever!
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Good point HWW on how Legionnaires exits were handled in such a positive way as compared to these days.
One of my favorites during this run: "Soljer's Private War"
Thanks, Cobie.
"Soljer's Private War" was different in that it was darker than most Legion stories of that era. However, I liked it because "Soljer" wasn't truly a villain; he was just a soldier doing his job. The story also touched on all kinds of themes, such as the horrors of war, reality versus perception, and how soldiers are or aren't remembered long after their sacrifices.
Most Legion stories of that time explored themes relevant to teenagers (e.g., insecurity, fitting in, proving one is not "the weakest link"). "Soljer's Private War" was one of the few that connected to more adult themes and gave the reader much to think about.
You touch on a number of the elements that make this such a standout story (not only for the era but IMO, the entirety of Legion history).
A powerful, and pessimistic theme, is the level of importance of Soljer's mission to the character, and the lack of importance to everyone else. The Legionnaires may have a basic sense of that, but they never quite grasp it. It's a powerful idea in terms of history. Most of us don't give a crap about who died during the Napoleonic Wars, or what sacrifices were made so a battle could be won. Yet hundreds of thousands gave their lives during those wars. Just like 200 years from now, people will not care at all about soldiers who die for wars fought today.
It's a chilling concept that looms over the whole story.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Set: [QUOTE]Trapper, yeah, there's no excuse for a time manipulator on his scale to ever lose. He can look ahead and never be surprised by any tactic, and counter it before even Brainiac 5 has thought of it, and if he ever *does* lose, he can call a time-out and retcon his loss into a victory. He's pretty much unbeatable, or, should be.
This would be an interesting way to handle the Time Trapper. It's a vendetta for him because he keeps losing and rebooting time to get another crack at the Legion, but it's always a first encounter for the Legion. And tney can't figure out why the guy hates them so much.
Registered: May 2012
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Indeed. It's the generals who are remembered, not those who fought, suffered injuries, or died.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Does anyone know what Cary Bates is currently doing for a living, I would have loved if he were the one who replaced Fabian Nicieza on Legion Lost, no disrespect to Tom DeFalco it's just Cary's history with the Legion, That and his part in co-creating Wildfire and Tyroc!
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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