quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: That story, as it stood, was both a hero's death and, as HWW points out, the suggestion of a rewarded afterlife. I have to wonder (today) if Lyle had a death wish, but at the time felt bad that he was shirking his duty - not very heroic!
One of the few aspects of the story which, to me, stands out as real character development is the fact that Lyle was not at his post during the training exercise. This seems very real to me, especially since I teach students who are not far removed, yearswise, from what Lyle must have been at the time.
Lyle was so overcome with hormones (er, love), that he thought a brief absence would not be noticed by his teammates. He was not prepared for the bombshell Myla dropped on him, which delayed his return and caused him to pass out.
Some may say that since Lyle had been a longtime Legionnaire (and a former leader, at that), he should have known better. But I still like the idea of heroes being fallible and teen heroes making impulsive decisions, as real teens might. To me, that makes them more human and relatable.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
agreed. In a perfect world, Lyle's distractions could have been alluded to in a subplot, so it wouldn't have been quite as out-of-the-blue. But it was the 70s.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
In the dawning days of Legion World, I wrote a fanfic, "Myriad", in which I tried to fill in some of the blanks in Lyle's character and make his actions in #203 seem more natural.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kid Quislet: Lyle also popped up earlier during Dream Girl's leadership from a Khundian negaton bomb (that sent Omen/Prophet away). Unfortunately, it later turned out to be some hoax created by a baddie in a dream dimension. I thought that was a great opportunity to bring him back, but Jacques was already on the scene and having two Invisible Kids in the Legion was impossible in those days.
Plus, as I recall, this was an example of the artist running amok with the script. Bringing back Lyle apparently didn't begin with Levitz. It was Giffen's idea of a curve-ball to throw at the writer.
Re the Lyle that was impersonated by the demon, I always did wonder at how it was treated. We didn't even see any scenes of his old teammates going, "Oh my gosh, Lyle, you're back!" Okay, so there was doubt and confusion as to his resurrection, but given that he died saving them (and he didn't turn out to be a Jarth...), makes me think that maybe Levitz WAS thrown a curveball and didn't have the time or inclination to really explore Lyle's return...
posted
^This was, in hindsight, one of the first indications Levitz was about to jump the shark. Even if he was thrown a curve ball, he should have run with it. We should have seen the Legionnaires react to their friend and comrade's return. Remember Lyle's friendship with Phantom Girl? Levitz, the ultimate fan-turned-pro, should have.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: We didn't even see any scenes of his old teammates going, "Oh my gosh, Lyle, you're back!" Okay, so there was doubt and confusion as to his resurrection, but given that he died saving them (and he didn't turn out to be a Jarth...), makes me think that maybe Levitz WAS thrown a curveball and didn't have the time or inclination to really explore Lyle's return...
Both Paul and Keith admitted to this being Keith's curveball.
In any case, in-story, "Lyle" sequestered himself away from the other Legionnaires, because (supposedly) he believed THEM to be tricks of the demon. It wasn't the skepticism of the other Legionnaires that was muting the joy of seeing him again.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Thanks for jogging my memory, CMK. Yes, I do remember that Lyle was really distressed at the time. But I agree with HWW - even one page of various Legionnaires reacting to a returned paranoid Lyle would have been nice. Show us some disbelief, confusion, concern - anything!
posted
Please explain the "curveball" to me. Was it a matter of Keith Giffen improvising on the Paul Levitz story by illustrating Lyle's reappearance without any prior knowledge by Mr. Levitz?
From the writer's perspective, that would make me laugh and piss me off at the same time...
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kid Quislet: Please explain the "curveball" to me. Was it a matter of Keith Giffen improvising on the Paul Levitz story by illustrating Lyle's reappearance without any prior knowledge by Mr. Levitz?
From the writer's perspective, that would make me laugh and piss me off at the same time...
As I recall, that's correct. Giffen and Levitz worked more or less as equal creative partners, with Giffen contributing bits and even entire scenes that weren't in Levitz's scripts. Levitz probably didn't know Lyle had been resurrected until he saw Giffen's artwork.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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It's good for writers and artists to challenge each other, but when it comes down to bringing back a beloved character just to see what one creative partner will do with it, it smacks of egocentricism and insensitivity toward the audience.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: ^Or a really annoying digression.
It's good for writers and artists to challenge each other, but when it comes down to bringing back a beloved character just to see what one creative partner will do with it, it smacks of egocentricism and insensitivity toward the audience.
That wouldn't be even close to the first time someone's said that about Keith Giffen.
-------------------- Watching television is not an activity.
From: Freeville, NY | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Oh, I know Giffen's reputation and I've read the interviews in which he's discussed his reasons for 5YL--reasons which had nothing to do with satisfying audience expectations.
But it seems to me that one goes a step further by being insensitive to both the audience and one's collaborators. It's ironic that Giffen, who exhibits no interest whatsoever in being a team player, became famous for drawing a series that epitomizes team spirit.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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FC, didn't it turn out that version of Lyle was just a construct made by the demon? That would mean the story he told Jacques was fake, and the real Lyle could still have gone on to a peaceful afterlife.
Correct, nothing the Fake Lyle said or did was true, it was all the Dream Demon manipulating Jacques and Wildfire. So, there's still no in-story resolution as to where Lyle "went" after death.
IIRC, during the Magic Wars when Projectra led the seance to figure out the cause of the breakdown of science, the spirit of Lyle appeard and said something like "Help me!"
It's kind of sad, though. Like when Kinetix was absorbed by Mordru in Legion of 3 Worlds and Mysa said, "Even in death she'll never know peace", I fined it really sad when a beloved hero dies and we're told he/she spends the entire afterlife being tormented. Ugh.
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