posted
As usual, Tamper is brilliant AND right -- Johns's retconning of an early Legion of 3 Worlds meeting precisely explains why Superman was so mellow about the appearance of the 2Boot Team 20.
I just have to say, though, again, that the Franks-designed "Adult Legion" looks RIDICULOUS! Garth looked scary, crazy and bizarre. I'm surprised Bats didn't automatically haul him off to Arkham. What the nass is that white cumberbun thing on Garth's abs? Is it the 31C wonder man-girdle? Is it holding in Garth's beer belly? Cause you know, based on his depiction by Johns, he's GOTTA have a beer belly. Likely PBR, too.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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The thing Garth wears.... Saturn Girl got pregnant and is making Garth carry the baby this time as not to ruin her figure yet again.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: 2) I recall at the time of Team 20 and Final Night, Superman expressed puzzlement over the changes in his friends (I remember a Lightning Lad/Live Wire comment). Of course, at that time, Superman had not been Superboy and had "met" the Legion before but as far as we know wasn't a member of the Legion. It's one of the things I hold most against DC editorial, the Superman creative teams, and the whole 2Boot enterprise that they mixed up all this stuff so badly. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you can blame Johns for this. Johns seems to have tried to deal with this by having his Superman/Legion sever ties prior to Final Night/Team 20 and his Superman thinking something is odd about the future, but unable/unwilling to pursue it. It's a weak argument, but it does the best of making lemonade from the lemons of the 1990s. [...]
As usual, Tamper is brilliant AND right -- Johns's retconning of an early Legion of 3 Worlds meeting precisely explains why Superman was so mellow about the appearance of the 2Boot Team 20.
Well, in LSH85, Superman's unfamiliar enough with the group that he doesn't realise they're not the same group he'd met, briefly, four times (post-Crisis Levitz-era LSH in the Pocket Universe story, and immediately-post-founding preboot-LSH, Cockrum-era preboot-LSH and 5YL LSH in Time & Time Again - which retconned the group he'd met before to include preboot Laurel Gand. This version remained nominally intact post-ZH), until they start going wha-huh at stuff like "Lightning Lad" (a mistake he repeats when he meets Garth himself in LSH100) before.
And, as you sort-of-note, his only reaction to the news that they're not is a slightly bemused "huh... future changed more than I thought in Zero Hour" thought balloon. (At this point, remember, he's met the 5YL Legion, who they're clearly younger than). Now, if people I was CLOSE friends with were, from my perspective, overwritten and thus effectively worse-than-dead, explaining why I hadn't heard from them for a while... I wouldn't be "mellow", especially in my thoughts even if I could hide it from the people in front of me.
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: All of this makes my head hurt. Obviously, no one can be a fan of the Legion WITHOUT being concerned with time travel, paradoxes, and the like, but this is too much. Cue Reboot making a pithy and amusing snark about how this is all bollocks.
Too tired to be pithy & amusing right now. Just passed midnight here.
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: Superman having known the first Legion from his youth probably dismissed the ZH/Final Night Legion as a duplicate LSH, especially if his friend Brainy had told him that another was out there.
«This makes no sense, unless... the timestream changed more than I thought.» Superman, thought balloon, LSH85.
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: Its pretty clear from the deleted art from JSA that Johns has retconned an encounter between the three Legions into the Adventure era. The encounter might have occurred at the Kent farm in Kansas. So Final Night may actually now be the second encounter between modern Superman and the reboot Legion. It's not clear when this happened in the reboot Legion's continuity relative to Final Night, but its certainly before the DnA run. So Superman assumes his LSH is the 'real' one and tells Bats this.
Now, if we're to assume these are all potential "Teh Futures", try and explain 1) the existance of both a Valor and a Mon-El in the contemporary DCU. And why Superman himself would have dubbed the L.E.G.I.O.N./Darkness Within Lar Gand "Valor" when he was so identical to his supposed childhood pal. 2) How Team 20 could have ended when Veridium has been retconned out. And, consequently, how come Cos, B5.1, Monstress and Apparition were distracted from Earth at just the right moment to dodge the Blight, and would consequently save Saturn Girl & XS just as they were about to get hammered in LotD (although Imra had knocked the Blighted down, XS was too weak to run because of the visions she'd had hammered into her head). And, of course, since the Blight wouldn't get stopped, that would have been the end of the whole UP. Even before you get into Xanthu, "Venge's" role in the Ra's administration, etc...
Incidentally, if you're (a) taking the deleted panel as gospel and (b) assuming this whole clusterfrak somehow fits with the original comics, it would be after Final Night and before the last story of Legion of Super-Heroes #100 for the Legion based on the presence of a pre-5.1 Brainiac 5 with Koko for the postbootalikers. Given that the whole team gets about five minutes together in that whole spell, it would either be a retconned fourth timeslip sometime after Lgs #54 (which would contradict comments made in-story), or it would get plothammered into Lgs47/LSH91. There's no spot where it could properly fit.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: Wow, I can't believe I'm offering these arguments in favor of Johns's plotting, but here goes:
1) During the Lightning Saga, Batman knew about the Legion, but didn't know Karate Kid, so I'm not sure that's an inconsistency. KK wasn't in the original JLA/JSA/LSH crossover, and wasn't part of Team 20 in the 2boot, and as far as I can tell from the covers, wasn't in KK's solo title. Of course, if you were writing Batman CORRECTLY, Bats would have a full dossier on every Legionnaire gleaned from offhand comments by Supes and the statues in the Fortress of Solitude. Still, I think Johns deserves a pass on Batman.
And for kicks and a dash of irony while we're at it:
Concerning Batman's team ups with the Legion and KK in Brave and the Bold...
I suppose it's possible the Action Legion is from before those teams up happened...but it's unlikely since the Action Legion is from right around the time of the Crisis and those two adventures in Brave and the Bold predated the GDS.
But really...it's a different Earth, different Batman, different Legion. That was the Pre Crisis Earth One...and we are now on New Earth. That has a different history...one that seems to include the best of the Pre Crisis and Post Crisis Universes.
As for why I posted the Karate Kid Kamandi Team up....I just find it ironic that Karate Kid actually gave birth to Kamdandi's world in Countdown...but once upon a time he was part of it, for at least an adventure.
quote: 2) I recall at the time of Team 20 and Final Night, Superman expressed puzzlement over the changes in his friends (I remember a Lightning Lad/Live Wire comment). Of course, at that time, Superman had not been Superboy and had "met" the Legion before but as far as we know wasn't a member of the Legion. It's one of the things I hold most against DC editorial, the Superman creative teams, and the whole 2Boot enterprise that they mixed up all this stuff so badly. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you can blame Johns for this. Johns seems to have tried to deal with this by having his Superman/Legion sever ties prior to Final Night/Team 20 and his Superman thinking something is odd about the future, but unable/unwilling to pursue it. It's a weak argument, but it does the best of making lemonade from the lemons of the 1990s.
3) I tend to agree with Trom about wrapping up the KK and Una stories. I will be presently surprised if Johns addresses this satisfactorily. Lord knows I don't understand it -- as near as I can see, the KK/Una story was a way to tie KK and Kamandi into Countdown (and a nod to the last ish of KK's 1970s solo book) and a use of already dead Legionnaires (so new deaths weren't needed) and a way to get Giffen to work on Countdown (so he could rejoice in killing KK again). Boy, THAT'S a character-driven plot for you.
HOWEVER, I do think you can explain the Trom's Trip/Duo question by noting that, from Una's perspective, she has 2 selves left in the future, thus strongly indicating she is the self killed by Computo, while Superman remembers her from a later time period as Duo Damsel.
All of this makes my head hurt. Obviously, no one can be a fan of the Legion WITHOUT being concerned with time travel, paradoxes, and the like, but this is too much. Cue Reboot making a pithy and amusing snark about how this is all bollocks. [/QB]
Honestly...there's no way it's going to fit seamlessly together.
What people need to realize is that this is not Earth 1..it's not Earth Only...it's an entirely New Earth which incoporates elements of everything that has come before.
So you may as well look at it as if that Final Night meeting happened in an entirely different Universe...and while something similar probably happened on the current Earth, in this current Universe...it probably had some slight differences....and I mean really slight differences, like a couple of lines of dialogue and a slight differnce of recognition.
As I always said...the Post Crisis Legion could never match up with the Pre Crisis Legion, becuase the Superman was entirely different, a lot more than that, but that was the main thing. It's like matching up the Pre Crisis Superman to the Post Crisis Superman...it just doesn't work in a linear continuity.
There is no way to tie the Pre Crisis and Post Crisis continuities together into a linear time line...it's definitely going to be a patch job. In fact...you'd have to create an entirely new Earth to do it, which is what DC has done.
In this case...all the events we have seen in the Legion's history...now have happened on a different earth that bears a resemblance to both the Pre and Post Crisis DC Unis...it has elements of both(hopefully, the best elements of both, and none of the worst).
And beyond that, some of the differences, the differet Legions, instead of all happening on alternate earths as was the explanation Pre Infinie Crisis, they are now part of one earth and were the result of alternate timelines due to the Time Trappers screwing with the Legion's Past.
Now? The Superman that was never Superboy? He was a trick played on the Legion, he was the result of time Trapper Trick, not the COIE...in this New Earth continuity.
In fact...all the Legions bear the mark of the Time Trapper's manipulations....of his trying to remove Superman from their history...
As the Trapper himself said, and I heartily agree...they were always stronger together.
That's the explantion...some stuff did not happen exactly as we remembered it...close, but not exact. Whether it's because this is a different Universe, or because the Time Trapper has altered the past multiple times, or it's simply Geoff Johns changing stuff himself...it's a litte different.
So that scene in Final Night that you mentioned, that was on a different Earth than the current one, that was a different Superman, and a different Legion.
That was not the New Earth Superman, and that was not any of the Legions that will be taking part in L3W...
As well, the true Pre Crisis Legion, that was on a different Earth, that was a different Legion from any of the ones taking place in the L3W, and that was a different Superman. That's the Earth One Legion and Superman...and the ones we are currently reading about are none of those...but a combination of both.
The hope is that everything that is essential to the iconic Legion, as well as the newer additions to their cannon, the best of the Legion of 3 Worlds, can be combined in a way that that adds to the Legion, and doesn't detract from it.
In a way what Johns has done is pretty brilliant, what can't be explained by the fact that this is a new and entirely different earth, can be explained by the Time Trapper's manipulations.
And he hasn't just incorporated 3 Legions into a parallel continuity of sorts...he's incorporated all of them...including the 5YG Legion, including the Post Crisis Legion...he's even figured out how to get the Pocket Universe into the broader continuity. To the Time Trapper, they all happened...although not exactly as any of us remember them.
[ May 06, 2008, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Superboy: The hope is that everything that is essential to the iconic Legion, as well as the newer additions to their cannon, can be combined in a way that that adds to the Legion, and doesn't detract from it.
Too late, methinks.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: The hope is that everything that is essential to the iconic Legion, as well as the newer additions to their cannon, can be combined in a way that that adds to the Legion, and doesn't detract from it.
Too late, methinks.
To me it just depends on how they are combined. If they are merged into one...that's usually something that no one likes, but there are different ways of getting the best of all of them, ways you can do it without merging, and Johns so far has been unsurpassed at pulling this sort of thing off....
Put it this way...he's been better at doing it than anyone else at DC...including Marv Wolfman and the original Crisis.
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I think Johns is brilliant in a variety of ways...but I do agree his payoffs seldom live up to his setups...but that's actually because his setups are fantastic.
But even if you don't think Johns is particularly clever or inventive...one thing cannot be denied and is easily proved...and that's that he has about a thousand times more common sense than anyone that has done this sort of thing at DC before.
In the crisis, DC came up with the explanation for the way things would be, how it all worked...and they fit everything to that explanation, the explantion was more important than the end result, even though that explanation was badly and superficially thought out...they made the books, the characters, fit the explanation...and in many cases, the books and characters were the worse for it.
Johns OTOH...he figures out what he wants, what elements he wants...and then he makes the explantion to fit what he wants...it's a much smarter way of doing it, because people are ten times more likely to accept an explantion they don't like, than they are a character change or book change they don't like.
The end result is more important to Johns than the explantion...and because of that IMO, his explanations actually make more sense. Because it's a hell of a lot easier to change the explantion than it is 25-40 years of history.
Me? The inconsistencies of that Pocket Universe story drove me up the wall originally...but ultimately it was becuase I didn't like that Legion...now? All those inconsistencies are still more or less there, but since I like this Legion more...it doesn't bother me near as much.
Registered: Mar 2006
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Yes I to am for Geoff Johns Restoring The Legion and what lost history of the original he can, as it is far better than scrapping everything and Rebooting as I have had about enough of that over the last twenty years.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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And BTW, for you hardcore continuity buffs...would you believe the seeds of this current L3W World Tale were possibly sown by none other than Jim Shooter way back in the early part of the SLOSH title? By possibly I mean..I don't know for certain this is where Johns got the idea from...but it does seem to fit rather well.
For all you guys that think Shooter might not be on board with what Johns is doing...Johns actually might be picking up from where a 30 year old loose string from Jim Shooter left off.
Ladies and Gents I give you SLOSH #223 page 5 by Jim Shooter and Mike Grell:
Based on that...Superboy, Karate Kid, Sun Boy, Chameleon Boy and Saturn Girl needed to be eliminated for the Time Trapper to rule the Universe...and that litle comment makes everything that has come since...make sense.
Including Sunboy's sad end, and Karate Kid's frequent deaths.
I don't know if that's where Johns got the idea from for tying all the continuital differences and various Legions into a broader continuity using the Time Trappers determination to remove Superboy from their history...but those that think Shooter might be offended by the idea...well, he had an idea pretty similar to it 30 years ago.
[ May 06, 2008, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Yes I to am for Geoff Johns Restoring The Legion and what lost history of the original he can, as it is far better than scrapping everything and Rebooting as I have had about enough of that over the last twenty years.
One fringe benefit of what Johns is doing...is editorial references to the Pre Crisis Legion are now an option...my back issue collection whole heartedly thanks Geoff Johns for this.
You know...in 1984, Adventure Comics #247 was the most valuable comic of the Silver Age...more than any of the Marvels, and more than Barry Allen...and erasing all that continuity killed the value of those backissues. They were no longer referenced, they were no longer relevant...they have not gone up in value at a similar rate to the other key Silver Age titles, in fact I think Adventure Comics #247 is worth basically what it was worth in 1985 at the time of the Crisis...perhaps now they will again hold pace with the other Keystone Silver Age titles...by all means Geoff(or Editor)...feel free to reference all those old Legion titles
Registered: Mar 2006
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I think this is the first alternate Legion story way back in Superboy #117.
And check out this picture.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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[/qb][/QUOTE]One fringe benefit of what Johns is doing...is editorial references to the Pre Crisis Legion are now an option...my back issue collection whole heartedly thanks Geoff Johns for this.
You know...in 1984, Adventure Comics #247 was the most valuable comic of the Silver Age...more than any of the Marvels, and more than Barry Allen...and erasing all that continuity killed the value of those backissues. They were no longer referenced, they were no longer relevant...they have not gone up in value at a similar rate to the other key Silver Age titles, in fact I think Adventure Comics #247 is worth basically what it was worth in 1985 at the time of the Crisis...perhaps now they will again hold pace with the other Keystone Silver Age titles...by all means Geoff(or Editor)...feel free to reference all those old Legion titles[/QB][/QUOTE]
Well I guess there was one perk in DC destroying The Legion's Legacy, I bought a good Adventure Comics #247 over two year ago off of ebay for a little over $300.00,I also got #267 of Adventure and Action pretty cheap the 1st,2nd and 3rd issues with the Legion
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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Well I guess there was one perk in DC destroying The Legion's Legacy, I bought a good Adventure Comics #247 over two year ago off of ebay for a little over $300.00,I also got #267 of Adventure and Action pretty cheap the 1st,2nd and 3rd issues with the Legion
That's a good point...I completed some of my collection during the discount era as well.
I feel pretty positive that if the Legion as it once was comes back in some form(if other versions are published more power to them as well), the Legion will once again become what IMO, it always was...the premiere comics Superteam. Before FF, before X-Men, JLA...before all just about but the JSA, and much more successful. Not just came before...and ushered in the Silver Age, but the one that the X-Men ripped off(along with our beloved Dave Cockrum) when it defined the Bronze Age.
...but IMO, it doesn't happen without Superman, anymore than any version of the JLA seems like the real one without some of the iconic characters.
He may not be the most poular Legionaire among the Legion faithful...but they aren't the problem, the rest of the comics audience, and their lack of interest is...and Superman is definitely the most recognizable. It's kinda like your mother holding your hand on your first day of school or something...he's the anchor and the known quantity...in the vast, futurisitic(and hopefully once again vital and growing), unknown and alien, Legion Universe.
Registered: Mar 2006
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Hey Superboy did you get the private message I sent you.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: HOWEVER, I do think you can explain the Trom's Trip/Duo question by noting that, from Una's perspective, she has 2 selves left in the future, thus strongly indicating she is the self killed by Computo, while Superman remembers her from a later time period as Duo Damsel.
I eventually came to the same conclusion. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense that a powerless Lu with only one self would have been sent to protect KK in Countdown. It has to be because they were both dead already.
-------------------- The poster formerly known as Carggaphile.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Jul 2003
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