quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Which character do most people recognize on this cover The 1st appearance of the Legion of Super-Heroes. Kal-El has been there from the beginning and since he was took away from the Legion the book has ended 3 times,It's in my opinion that the Legion has done better with him than without him,at one time with him they were more popular than the X-Men and the Titans,and under the right direction I think with him they could be a Top seller once again for DC.
As a Legion fan and not a big Superboy/man fan I have to agree. I think the Legion could've made it without him but DC trips over themselves so much it's just easier with him. The legion didn't need him but DC really messed up the Legion...now they need him more than ever. I guess he's an anchor. Johns sold me on the Superman connection.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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I think what Johns (and the TV show) have done is argue convincingly that the Legion is important to Superman--that they had a reciprocal/paradoxical influence on each other that helped make sure that young Clark Kent grew up to become the greatest hero in the universe, great enough to inspire a bunch of kids 1,000 years later. There are pitfalls in this approach -- of the time travel/paradox/quasi-religious destiny variety. But there are advantages too. For one, it takes some of the pressure off poor old Ma and Pa Kent for raising the perfect kid to become the greatest hero in the universe. With the Legion, there's a peer group that gets Clark through adolescence without the angst that could result in planet-wide catastrophe. Also, Clark's experiences of the Legion serve as a critical reminder to him that, as powerful as he is, he is MORE powerful with allies and friends to help him. I think that's an essential part of Superman that gets overlooked too often. When you are THAT powerful, how do you avoid the "Oh, I'll do it myself" attitude that ends in tyranny? (This is my new mental model of why Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, and why Luke Skywalker doesn't, BTW.) Seen in this light, Superman's experience with the Legion should lead him to reach out to other heroes, even ones radically different from him, like Batman. A Legionless Supes (like that of Byrne and later) WOULD be disdainful of the Justice League, and Batman. A Legion-based Supes would crave connection to the other heroes, even if that connection isn't the intense adolescent bonding he had with the Legion. He would win Batman's friendship in spite of Batman himself. He would help form the Justice League just as soon as there were other heroes to join.
The reverse question, though, is whether the Superman is important enough to the Legion to warrant including him somehow. You can argue that he's a point of view character, someone the reader can identify with in this huge cast of wacky future alien super hero teens. Certainly that's how Superboy WAS often used during the Adventure era. Then there's the argument that including Supes is worth it to sell more books. The best argument I see is that Supes is there as a living reminder to the Legion to stay on the right path, to live up to the high ideals that inspired the Legion in the first place. Seen in that light, you could imagine a pretty cool story with Superman meeting the Reboot/3Boot Legions and reading them the riot act about their bad behavior!
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kidflash2fan: did any one notice the the pic for the legion of three worlds behind brainiac 5's hand the lighting is shaped liked the letters x s
I thought it was a "v s" as in "versus". Since "XS" was in another panel of the preview, and she's another member of the Flash family it certainly could be her though...
-------------------- Craig C.
- Time travel stories are told in chronillogical order.
From: Santa Ana, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: Also, Clark's experiences of the Legion serve as a critical reminder to him that, as powerful as he is, he is MORE powerful with allies and friends to help him.
In his meeting characters like Karate Kid, who utterly school him during tryouts as to how 'no powers' does not equal 'weak' or 'helpless,' I think it sets Clark up to respect people like Batman and Wildcat, who are willing (and quite able) to be full-fledged heroes without a single super-power.
Also, in meeting other superhuman figures, who use their powers badly, including others of his own 'weight class,' I think it helps foster the realization that being Kryptonian isn't what makes him a 'good guy.' It's what he chooses to do with those powers and that heritage. Rather than becoming strange and alien and distant from humanity, in all it's shapes and colors, his teenage experience with all sorts of shapes and colors of good guys and bad guys, IMO, helps to prime him to judge people on their actions and not on their power-level or alien/human/whatever heritage.
quote: The reverse question, though, is whether the Superman is important enough to the Legion to warrant including him somehow.
Saturn Girl comes from a world with many thousands of telepaths. Cosmic Boy comes from a world with millions of magnetically-powered folk. Quite a few other Legionnaires (Phantom Girl, Triplicate Girl, Brainiac 5, Chameleon Boy) come from worlds where everyone has powers much like their own, and yet *these* are the ones who have been inspired by the heroes of the past, of which Superman is first and foremost, to use their innate abilities to 'fight the good fight.'
I'm not a huge fan of Superman/boy/pig *in* the Legion, at least not full-time, but I do think that he's absolutely vital to the formation of the team, as they exist in a universe where billions of sentients, entire worlds full of them, have the power to match 20th century heroes *and choose not to.*
The Legion live in a universe where 'with great power comes great responsibility' is not a common concept, from the very earliest envisionings of the setting, where the vast, vast, vast majority of Titanians and Braalians were content to live non-super-lives, working as teachers and miners and whatever.
quote: Seen in that light, you could imagine a pretty cool story with Superman meeting the Reboot/3Boot Legions and reading them the riot act about their bad behavior!
Given their comic-collecting, hero-worshipping ways, the threeboot Legion is particularly egregious in this fashion. They fight the good fight, but spend a fair amount of the first couple years assaulting authorities, breaking laws willfully (with no need to do so, just for fun) and going out of their way to act like the sorts of people 60's era Superboy would have called 'super-hoodlums!'
Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Actually, it says more about the appeal of the Post Crisis Legions to the comics buying audience than it does anything else.
DC told the vast majority of the old Legion Fans to go eff themselves a long time ago. And they have not catered to that demographic for some time now...say 23 years.
The Post Crisis versions of the book are conceptually different from the Pre Crisis team. In some ways these changes were wrought by DC, but some of them were wrought by hardcore Legion fans. I think the importance of these conceptual differences are lost on most Legion fans both old and new, but I think they are important nontheless.
For instance, you can say Mon-El, is now Superboy and represents his role on the team, that energy, but that means absolutely nothing to a non-Legion fan, nor does it make Mon-El as recognizable as Superboy. That decision only caters to hardcore Legion fans.
Come to think of it, taking Superboy out of the picture doesn't make any Legionaires more recognizable.
You can also say the Legion now resides almost entirely in a self contained Universe, with little or no ties to any other comics Univrse, in some cases with near Real Time Aging(some old fans love this)...but that's something done to appeal to the ultra hardcore Legion fan base...not the mainstream audience and potential new readers.
IF you look at successful team books, they all have a character that attracts, and keeps attracting new readers...
When the Legion removed Superboy, they removed that character.
It's not so much that Superboy is a character everyone wants to read about, as it is that he's a version of arguably the most instantly recognizable character in comics history, and the Legion becomes a more familiar/inviting/approachable team and concept by his association with them, instead of the group of unknowns with a large cast, a basically generic foundation, and a confusing history, in a self contained/oft rebooted Universe, that they are without him.
I'd also argue that other things that hurt the Legion conceptually are the virtual elimination of time travel stories, overly focusing on realism and character devlopment, at the expense of the sci fi elements, action, and universal expansion, and not having a sophisticated enough future Universe. [/QB]
Forgive the edits, but I agree with these points that you making above. Except that I think that the Legion works better if they are not tied directly to the present-day DC universe. Just more or less ignore the doings in the present-day DC universe, sort of like they did in the old Adventure days. First, every story-line or major-event wont have to have reverberations in the future. I'm sure that events that occured in 1008 may have seemed earth-shattering and world-changing at the time but 1000 years later the effects of those earth-shattering/world changing events have been greatly muted by time. It would seem to me that the Legion creative staff shouldn't have to tie-in to every Crisis DC comes up with. And second, ...well I've forgotten what my second point was but I'm sure that it was a good one.
Oh and they definately need to elevate the sci-fi/future sophistication angle. Thats what made the Levitz/Giffen run so swell was that the future seemed so ...futuristic. And time travel played a big part in the sci-fi feel of the Legion. Bring back the time bubbles, I miss the time bubbles.
-------------------- So what.
From: Harrisburg, PA | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Saturn Girl comes from a world with many thousands of telepaths. Cosmic Boy comes from a world with millions of magnetically-powered folk. Quite a few other Legionnaires (Phantom Girl, Triplicate Girl, Brainiac 5, Chameleon Boy) come from worlds where everyone has powers much like their own, and yet *these* are the ones who have been inspired by the heroes of the past, of which Superman is first and foremost, to use their innate abilities to 'fight the good fight.'
I'm not a huge fan of Superman/boy/pig *in* the Legion, at least not full-time, but I do think that he's absolutely vital to the formation of the team, as they exist in a universe where billions of sentients, entire worlds full of them, have the power to match 20th century heroes *and choose not to.*
The Legion live in a universe where 'with great power comes great responsibility' is not a common concept, from the very earliest envisionings of the setting, where the vast, vast, vast majority of Titanians and Braalians were content to live non-super-lives, working as teachers and miners and whatever.
Set, these are wonderful insights! I can remember thinking idly along these lines as a kid, but it has not occured to me in quite a long time that the 31st century is full of super-heroes that refuse the opportunity! The idea of all these special people keeping to themselves, considering their extraordinary gifts "normal," not thinking to help their cousins on other planets, cousins who were beneath their consideration. What a perfect metaphor for America in the 1950s! When you think about it, this is a much better underlying conflict for the 3boot Legion than the whole generation gap. The generation gap is a red herring (like, say, flag lapel pins). The real disagreement is about leaving your comfort zone and joining with people different from you to make the most of your uniqueness and benefit the common good. Man, I hope Francis and Shooter and read this.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kidflash2fan: did any one notice the the pic for the legion of three worlds behind brainiac 5's hand the lighting is shaped liked the letters x s
I thought it was a "v s" as in "versus". Since "XS" was in another panel of the preview, and she's another member of the Flash family it certainly could be her though...
the tip of that v goes out like an x
-------------------- ／l、 ﾞ（ﾟ､ ｡ ７ l、ﾞ ~ヽ じしf_, )ノ
i do commissions
From: ny | Registered: Jul 2007
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I don't know if this is the right place to post this... but did anyone else pick up Action Comics #864 this week? I was surprised at how big a Legion issue it was.
The interaction between Batman and Lightning Lad was very interesting. And my favorite scene was when they visited Starman.
This issue seemed to be a bridge between all the various stories with this Legion and setting up what's going to happen in Legion of Three Worlds.
Click Here For A SpoilerBatman mentions having met all three Legions. He talked about the Reboot Legion during Final Night. It's not clear if Superman remembers them. I found that curious.
And there was a big reveal at the end:
Click Here For A SpoilerTime Trapper has been pulling the strings such as placing that tablet for Earth-Man to find. He wants to "corrupt everything you [Superman] ever stood for."
posted
yeah yeah I was wondering when they'd touch on that. I'm certainly glad i picked that ish up. That and I'm groovin on the ending page.also garth's tattoo xD!
From: Bismoll, baby! Yeah!! | Registered: Apr 2008
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Same here amigo. Hell I think it would have made my day if frank woulda been on art duties in this one.
From: Bismoll, baby! Yeah!! | Registered: Apr 2008
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Really loved the latest Action issue and was likewise surprised how much Legion was in it. Even as corpses, I think this was the best respect I've seen given to Karate Kid and Una since they got here. Good moments with Thom. I liked seeing the interactions with Batman too, and the fact he remembers the three Legions.
I'm struggling with Johns' Garth. He reads like Ultra Boy to me (a postboot and threeboot one at that). I used to love the loud, hotshot SW6/pre-death personna of his but it jars me here. Probably because I just finished a good re-read of the 70s/80s stories that are supposed to precede this version and it's rather absent there. The personality, scruff, and tattoo really don't emulate a Garth Ranzz who is/was/would have been a stay at home dad who didn't miss the fight at all. Maybe I'm just being a super sensitive fanboy.
Good build-up here for Three Worlds. And although I'm not surprised by the incoming villain at all, I did still have a sense of awe and surprise at seeing him again. Hey, I even agree with him. He's been given the shaft in the past. Show us what you got.
Registered: Jul 2003
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I was happy to see Karate Kid and Una get a decent send off after the horrible treatment they got in Countdown. They deserved at least to be taken home and buried with honors. The Starman part really cemented that he was not going back tot he future anytime soon, and tied in nicely to the future version of him we saw way back in the end of the Jack Knight Starman series.
I agree with Ultra Jorge. I am going to miss seeing this version of the Legion writing by Johns. Wating for August is going to seem like such a long time now.
From: Michigan | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Future: Hey, I even agree with him. He's been given the shaft in the past. Show us what you got.
Amen brotha, I for one am glad he's back and ready to through down. I'm just wondering what Incarnation of " you know who" he is exactly. Either way I'm all for legion of three worlds.
From: Bismoll, baby! Yeah!! | Registered: Apr 2008
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I just read it. Yeah I miss Frank badly. Didn't care for the art. Except the last page. That rocked!
I also enjoyed the story very much. Batman and the Legion? I was really worried. But I was suprised. Good stuff.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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