posted
c'mon people. these are hormonal teenagers. there needs to be sexual desire and fantasy. especially if you are trying convey 3-dimensional characters. of course Imra is attracted to Garth because of his impulsivity... something "shocking"... get it? Imra is all discipline. every boot has recognized this. it doesn't mean she is secretly submissive or wants all men to put her in her place. you don't have to be into s/m to want your lover to take control and kiss you and make you forget about the deadly mission you were just on. shooter is doing a good job, in my opinion, of giving us diverse characterizations. Light Lass' sexuality compared to Saturn Girl's. Invisible Kid's subtlety and stealth compared to Timber Wolf's over-the-top machismo. Princess P. is obviously unstable. whether it's possession or mind-control or that interesting theory that she's Brin in disguise(!)... i don't think shooter is trying to pass off her behavior as her personality. something is wrong with her. it's part of the plot.
-------------------- Gorilla Nebula
From: san francisco | Registered: Jul 2003
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Never met the man so its hard to know what his politics are like in full context, not interview snippets or decisions made as a fiduciary agent of Marvel's corporate bosses.
As a writer, Shooter was no doubt restricted by the times and the Comics Code when he was writing these characters previously. It's known he tried to create Ferro Lad as a black character for the Legion. He was to have taken off his mask and the Legionnaires were to have seen his black face and it wouldn't have mattered because he was a hero. Blocked by DC's editors, Shooter killed him rather than have him as another white legionnaire. This was Jim Shooter as a teenager.
He does write female characters in a very classical comic book way. Though really Karate Kid was the object for LightLass.
Regarding Saturn Girl in particular, I was discussing Atlas Shrugged recently. Ayn Rand had some weird ideas about sexual identity. Shooter writes Imra as Rand would, liberated and masterful in her work but totally submissive in bed.
ahhh, i really doubt shooter's any sort of on par with many other writers in his field, or most novelists. furthermore, just because Ayn Rand does something, doesn't mean it's okay. I think you're giving shooter a ludicrous amount of undeserved credit. i should point out that nowadays people know NOT to hire 14 year olds to write comics for good reason.
I'd be more understanding if the other girls in the book weren't now characterized by their sexuality, light lass is a good example of how sudden and awkward and FORCED it felt for her to appear, go "i like sleeping with people or i don't feel complete", and then worry about her brother. what, really? it just shows that shooter is very concerned with the male characters, with how they thing and operate, and that the females are just there for 1) sex appeal or 2) things to compliment the boys.
furthermore, restrictions do not stop many writers and artists from adding a thing called subtext in times of stifling oppression. and i find shooters actual writings that feature flimsy female characters and non-existent or sadistic versions of gay characters incapable of subtext or subtlety.
"classical comic book way", i'm afraid, tends to equal sexist. it might be nostalgic to have ladies whose only role is to look hot and get killed and stuffed into refrigerators (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/) but it doesn't make a friendly place for lady characters or lady readers. or lady readers with money to spend.
when the girls in the book are materialistic and oversexed, it just paints a big "no girls allowed" sign on the book. it's only manapul's nicely, respectfully drawn females that lends any credibility to this book for me. I hope shooter's run will end quickly so i don't have that dirty feeling when i buy it.
ugh. wow. i cannot read that interview without a very sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. wow. I'm astounded that he was permitted to say such obviously inappropriate things like that, that no one just reached over and put a hand over his mouth. i am strongly questioning whether i should continue purchasing this comic.
there's a difference between portraying a liberated female who likes a good romp in the sheets, and just making skanky fetish objects to feed an immature person's fantasies. the difference is, for a lack of a better word, respect. shooter's writings lack respect for females to me.
try this exercise, switch the positions of saturn girl and lightning lad, do you think he'd EVER write a story where garth was begging imra to make him submit to her?
All you say is true. And I haven't read too much of JS' stuff (most of it was a bit before my time, and haven't read the post-Marvel stuff). I do recall several instances where he created female characters to heighten the drama when they were killed. Secret Wars (and poor Triplicate Girl in his very first LSH story) come to my mind. And 'subtle' is not in any description of the man, his writing or his editorial career.
Legion has had a large female following relative to many other super-hero books starting in the Weisinger editorial era. I don't think the record has been worse or better than most books. Really does it get any worse than the evil feminist planet of FemNaz turning the girl Legionnaires against their boy teammates and trying to kill them on dates? (Come to think of it why doesn't the Siegel Estate sue Rush Limbaugh for copyright? I'm pretty sure that was earliest use of the word in print.)
But I digress, writers, editors and readers are more aware of these issues these days and it'll be interesting to see what readers will think of the current run. The current portrayal of the characters is very retro (reminds me of the 70s under Bates and Shooter Legion) So if Waid were reimagining the silver age legion in an actual 50s-60s social environment, I'd say JS is revisiting his young adulthood of the late 60s and 70s without Comics Code restrictions and Uncle Mort crimping his style. We'll see where his run goes.
And you know the great thing about comics is that there'll aways be a new writer to fix things when someone moves on. So enjoy the camaraderie of the fan community even if you don't like the current product. I think that's what this board is about more or less.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Yipes, people. You'd think she asked him to beat her over the head with a club and drag her into a cave. The true definition of Imra and Garth's relationship isn't a little kinky sex talk, it's what happens next -- he asks her to lead a team of super-muscle to Rimbor to fight the alien invaders, entrusting her with the lives of those Legionnaires and all the souls on the planet. If the worst happened to Garth, there's no doubt in my mind he'd want Imra to step up and take his place as Legion leader, and she would not hesitate to do it..
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: try this exercise, switch the positions of saturn girl and lightning lad, do you think he'd EVER write a story where garth was begging imra to make him submit to her?
All due respect, I don't see Imra "begging" for anything. Clearly, she was the one taking the lead. And for all we know, she ties him to the bed posts, blind-folded, every alternate Tuesday. Who cares? Everything they do outside the bedroom paints a relationship of two individuals who regard each other as equals. If the plain truth is to be told, Shooter in fact portrays Imra as wiser, more mature and probably more capable leader than Garth and, physical prowess excepted, in possession of as many or more stereotypical "male" strengths as her guy teammates.
quote:ugh. wow. i cannot read that interview without a very sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. wow. I'm astounded that he was permitted to say such obviously inappropriate things like that, that no one just reached over and put a hand over his mouth. i am strongly questioning whether i should continue purchasing this comic.
Sounds to me like you're doing exactly what Shooter did 32 years ago -- placing far too much emphasis on the sexual aspects of the characters. I'm a woman and I must say I find it troubling to hear this playful, amusing but insignificant (imo) vignette produced as evidence of a reactionary anti-feminist agenda, based primarily on some silly things a very young man said in 1976. The actual characterizations he's writing in 2008 paint quite a different, and much more complex, picture of the Legionnaires, both male and female.
For truly "creepy" depictions of two Legionnaires, read the current issue of Action.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
The Imra / Garth scene seemed a little 'eh' to me until I realized that it's the same sort of thing that happens in the real world. The person in charge, the one who makes the decisions, and, in this case, has just come back from leading a group through a traumatic encounter, is the person most likely to want to surrender control to someone else.
In the real world, it's Senators that like to be tied up, whipped or dressed in a diaper by $5000 an hour dominatrixes. In this world, *Imra* is the one who feels the weight of the world on her shoulders (yeah, Garth had to juggle some phone calls, while she was on the field of battle, fighting for her own life and those of her teammates and thousands of civilians), and wants to just let go and not be the one in charge for an hour of her life.
And maybe, with the power to control the minds and actions of everyone around her at a whim, she sometimes craves *not* being the one in control every now and then.
Gorilla Nebula wrote
quote:Princess P. is obviously unstable. whether it's possession or mind-control or that interesting theory that she's Brin in disguise(!)... i don't think shooter is trying to pass off her behavior as her personality. something is wrong with her. it's part of the plot.
Could be plain old PTSD. She just had her entire world blowed up and watched her father die in front of her eyes, and now the UP is billing her for everything her world ever owed, while telling her that her title is being stripped and she won't get anything her people were owed to pay those debts...
Or, perhaps she was mystically tied to her world, being of the royal line, and the destruction of her world has left her soul ravaged and lifeless and sundered to bits. Will she be able to recover? Will she flame out spectacularly? Will she have to bond to a new world, a new life, perhaps even a new 'family' to maintain her sanity? Will she be forced to attempt to recreate Orando somehow, and be found hovering in the debris cloud of her homeworld, living out some delusional fantasy created by her out of control powers?
We'll see. The whole story hasn't been told.
I'm not seeing a straight-up male / female split here. Ayla and Tinya and Tasmia have all been portrayed as put-together and functional personalities, while Garth, Val and Brin (and the Princess) have gotten the bulk of the flipping out or losing control. Where one person could see misogyny, I could just as easily see misandry, as the women are clearly the ones in control of themselves and shining under pressure (Thom and Brin both having to have their asses saved by Imra on Triton, for instance), while the men are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
But I ain't looking for that sort of stuff. I seek entertainment. Fox News will always be there for me if I feel the need to be pissed off by rampant sexism or racism or classism.
[ May 08, 2008, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Set ]
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Hi, veryvery! I like your icon - let's go on a message-board-wide rampage of wacky mistaken identity shenanigans
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: My pet theory for Projectra's and Brin's characterizations in #41 is that Jeckie has some kind of clever plan in pursuit of which she has used her powers to disguise herself as Brin and vice versa.
Awesomeness.
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: Yipes, people. You'd think she asked him to beat her over the head with a club and drag her into a cave. The true definition of Imra and Garth's relationship isn't a little kinky sex talk, it's what happens next -- he asks her to lead a team of super-muscle to Rimbor to fight the alien invaders, entrusting her with the lives of those Legionnaires and all the souls on the planet. If the worst happened to Garth, there's no doubt in my mind he'd want Imra to step up and take his place as Legion leader, and she would not hesitate to do it.. [snippity] I find it troubling to hear this playful, amusing but insignificant (imo) vignette produced as evidence of a reactionary anti-feminist agenda, based primarily on some silly things a very young man said in 1976. The actual characterizations he's writing in 2008 paint quite a different, and much more complex, picture of the Legionnaires, both male and female.
Pardon me for interjecting myself into this conversation. As for me, I certainly don't feel qualified to judge whether Shooter has an anti-feminist agenda, I don't know him. I do, however, feel that in his writing he serves up clichés straight out of the 50s, and that those are annoying. Mentioned above was that you can't infer from Imra's behaviour towards Garth that she's not a competent leader. I'm not disputing that at all - she's portrayed as highly efficient on the job. I'm just choking on the implication that for true "female fulfilment" being capable on the job is insufficient since gaining the approval of your very special hunk is that much more emotionally satisfying. And yes, I do think I read this sentiment out of the 2008 characterisations - what the hell was up with Imra when she was chastised by Garth for using her telepathy on Brin? She was awfully meek, all of a sudden. Bad conscience or actually eager to please? I'd find it disappointing if she'd actually had enormous scruples using her powers but went ahead with it anyway, all the while feeling guilty - that would make her a pushover. I'd have expected her to try and justify her choice much more vehemently, befitting her usual "efficient on the job" image. Instead she's caving to her mighty leader mate Garth. Brin on the other hand is allowed to spew how he'd go for her jugular if this little thing ever happens again.
I also don't think "being young" and "it was a long time ago" is a get-out-of-jail-free-card when saying or writing potentially offensive stuff. Imagine the "time-appropriate" sexism in the interview were, for example, racism of a comparable degree - would you still call that merely silly?
...Okay, I have to admit that I'm, with a sort of horrified fascination, stuck on that interview. (Who on earth, when asked about his or her characterisations, elaborates that extensively on the character's bedroom antics? Or was that actually the question?) I don't know whether I'd evaluate Shooter's Legion issues differently if I hadn't read the interview, though. Probably a no on the "chastising for the use of telepathy" issue and a yes on the bedroom games issue. The latter I'd probably only see as fitting into the juvenile mold Shooter's Legion operates in - horny teenagers and barf bonanzas. I'm expecting fart jokes next issue.
quote: For truly "creepy" depictions of two Legionnaires, read the current issue of Action.
I'm not following Action. Would you tell me or should I move my lazy butt to search in the appropriate thread?
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
i'm all about depicting ladies that like sex, that's great, i'm not so hot on when the girls that like sex are so dependent about it. Ayla was brought up, but early on in Shooter's run she comments that she doesn't like to sleep alone. I think it's great when a girl shows initiative but not the kind of initiative borne out of weakness, something that also sees representation with Imra. Why does a strong female need to be "owned" in bed? and yes, i do think he's saying she's the submissive in this as her dialogue indicates.
as strong as her previous leadership skills on the field were, she's depicted as pissed off about having to, you know, go SAVE A PLANET. to me this reaction AND
i don't see this a realistic portrayal of teenage sex habits, either. sure, teenagers are having sex but I'm pretty sure they're not speaking ANYTHING like Imra does in the bedroom.
i think some of you are confusing waid/dedard with shooter here. So far, Tinya during SHOOTER's run turned up just to be in her lingerie. Triplicate girl only shows up to flirt and comment about Karate Kid's prowess in the sack. Tasmia beat the crap out of a monster, i did notice, which was nice. Projectra... whatever is going on with her does not make sense. Timberwolf in her body? not unless he likes nice bracelets. and stealing nice bracelets.
i don't think i am putting too much emphasis on the sex, i think SHOOTER is putting too much emphasis on the sex, i think it feels awkward and out of place, i think this slow accumulation of uncomfortable, forced scenes is becoming an aggregate manifestation of his crazy. it's a combination of these scenes combined with, well, sexist depictions of the female characters. Even the characterization of Imra as a capable leader has just been invalidated by her immature reaction to having to go kick ass. i was actually LONGING for some cute garth/imra scenes. I wanted to see their cute affection, instead I got something creepy and tawdry for no reason. and that's becoming the style of this book, cheap sexual interactions.
He might have said that back in the day but I know small kids that would never say things like that about women, that know how inaccurate that is. And I've never heard any sort of lamentation, or apology or signs of regret from Shooter about ANY of the things he's said or done that were excessively inappropriate (the Incredible Hulk YMCA gay rape scene, anyone?). I'm sorry, but I don't know anyone in their right mind that would make such appalling statements about women and somehow grow out of them. I must point out that I didn't read nor have knowledge about that interview until someone on this forum pointed it out to me. Therefore, the grossed out reaction i had to this book was wholly a product of Shooter's writing. It just served to horrify me more that he was allowed to write this book.
you know, in most other industries, a company taking an anti-gay stance or saying such bafflingly inappropriate things would have to issue an apology, a statement. There are many industries where that person would never work again, let alone be put at the helm of a book that has a female following. in other words, i'm very surprised.
Set mentioned Garth and Brin flipping out and being the more emotional ones. They flipped out and then calmed down, started to mature and GROW as characters, where as the females are just serving as vehicles towards that end. (KK flipping out on Garth... that was so confusing, especially when he later states that he has utter control over his body... so.. I really didn't get that). Shooters obviously capable of making the boys be three dimensional characters, I'm enjoying Lyle and B5 and Garth immensely. Colossal Boy, Element lad and jo all have a very cute interaction when they go on a mission together. it just makes his characterization of women even more jolting and bizarre.
For the record, there are ways to write a girl that likes to be submissive in bed up that don't leave you feeling like you need a shower. it's something you do a little at a time with hints and things, so that it MAKES SENSE. there are better, cuter, friendlier ways.
btw, having recently purchased that Showcase that just came out with the FemNaz story, I thought it was hilarious that the girls got rid of all the boys and then HAD A DANCE PARTY.
quote:Originally posted by Set: The Imra / Garth scene seemed a little 'eh' to me until I realized that it's the same sort of thing that happens in the real world. The person in charge, the one who makes the decisions, and, in this case, has just come back from leading a group through a traumatic encounter, is the person most likely to want to surrender control to someone else.
In the real world, it's Senators that like to be tied up, whipped or dressed in a diaper by $5000 an hour dominatrixes. In this world, *Imra* is the one who feels the weight of the world on her shoulders (yeah, Garth had to juggle some phone calls, while she was on the field of battle, fighting for her own life and those of her teammates and thousands of civilians), and wants to just let go and not be the one in charge for an hour of her life.
And maybe, with the power to control the minds and actions of everyone around her at a whim, she sometimes craves *not* being the one in control every now and then.
I like this (well, except for the mental image of senators in diapers you gave me). From now on I will try to think of this interpretation when Imra clamours for some stress relief.
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
oh one other point, he's written like five issues? and with a cast of a billion characters, the fact that there's enough sex business in it for us to even have this discussion is a very bad indicator of how this book is going. as b5 keeps reiterating, much like the reader does "don't we have more important things to attend to?"
during waid and dedard's run, the only sexybusiness we had was dealt with maturely and competently, (triplicate girl's date with three of the boys which could have gone SO HORRIBLY, was just FUN.
trip) we should probably have a conversation
several silent panels
element lad) i like being naked.
triplicate girl) ok I'll start.
fun and entertaining!
At one point someone asks Garth how he dates a telepath and he responds that they're very honest with one another. i thought "ah, how sweet! i want to see more of their cute romance". now i'm terrified of their romance.
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote: So far, Tinya during SHOOTER's run turned up just to be in her lingerie.
She's already been sent on two different missions, and spent the first issues hanging around Garth and occasionally even holding a pad, suggesting that she'd doing leaderly stuff (and / or just being helpful).
Tinya's hardly been nothing more than a lingerie-model...
Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Insomniac Girl: 'm not following Action. Would you tell me or should I move my lazy butt to search in the appropriate thread?
It's nothing sexual in nature. Garth is depicted as a Neanderthal and Thom Kallor as a drooling lunatic (as usual). Those portrayals are so much grosser and more demeaning to the characters than a little playful banter between two young lovers, imo.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
This may be known from here on an the 'kinky implied sex issue'.
Cham and a...bird?!!
Imra: "take me...own me..." WHOA! In a Legion comic? That's gotta be a first! Bloody Liberty--I like it! (seriously though, that was a WTF? moment).
Shooter's 31st century slang is beyond annoying.
The buerocrats story needs to pick up ASAP.
This was enjoyable, but there's still something really missing here. I'm not 100% thrilled to read the newest Legion still...I can almost let it sit for days on end and read multiple other comics before I get around to it.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
From a European perspective, I find it quite hilarios that the element most people are talking about here from the last Legion issue is the sexual innuendo in the Imra/Garth relationship.
I guess that's what people would consider "typical" for Americans over here (though i did not check if everybody actually is from the US )...
I for my part was rather wondering: Has the eternally young romance between Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl actually already begun in Threeboot continuity? And if so, when did it start? Before or after Waid left?
As for the story, I really am quite fond of Shooters take on the "clean sheet" Legion established by WaK, he gives them life, he gives them a certain freshness and I really enjoy reading the book for the first time since DnA. Kudos to Mister Shooter and Francis Manapul (Loprestis art was good as well) for saving the Threeboot disaster in my book.
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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I think you're giving shooter a ludicrous amount of undeserved credit. i should point out that nowadays people know NOT to hire 14 year olds to write comics for good reason.![[tease]](graemlins/tease.gif)
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