Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter off Legion?

I believe Mr. Shooter has the ability to write for ANY version or amalgamation of the Legion, and I hope he stays on and takes the challenge of writing more interesting tales of the Legion no matter what the Lo3W series brings.

I'd like the current creative team to spend at least 3 years on the title, or more if they like.

I can't add much to what Veryvery said, except that I think the editor (I think it was Murray Boltinoff) was the one who made the final judgement call. Ideally, he could have and should have told Shooter and Grell to re-write and re-draw the scene without the offensive content. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

Actually....you're wrong. No version anything of the Legion was on issue #3 when the Man Of Steel came out.


The Man of Steel came out in 1986...the first issue of version V4 Didn't come out until 1989, 3 years later.


And V4 wasn't tied into anything, especially after they retconned Superboy out...little details like, oh, the original appearance of the team, never happened...and other little details like, oh, the original appearance of Mordru couldn't have happened either...not to mention things like the complete and total alteration of Brainiac 5's entire life as a Legionaire.


No...V4 is at best, concerning the original, a mutiltated, gutted version of original Legion set in a completely dystopian future(as opposed to the Utopian of the original Legion), on a completely different Earth, in a completely different Universe.


The original Legion was on Earth 1 and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's time line.


V4 was on Earth only, the Post Crisis Earth, and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's timeline.


Different DC Universe. Different Earth....it's right there in LSH V3 #37(which was some 28 issues before V4 #3) when the Legion meet the Post Crisis Superman and are established as being a part of his Earth, his timeline.

The orginal Legion, they met and knew the Superman of Earth 1, not as Superboy, but as Superman as well...the V4 Legion never met the Superman of Earth 1.


I mean saying it the V4 was the original Legion would mean the original Legion was the first Post Crisis book published by DC...publishd some 25 years before the actual Crisis...

LOL, the original Legion had Krypto...I don't see him as being a big tying point to the Post Crisis Earth.


I'd say removing the central character of the books first 20 years, was pretty massive...

I know most fans of later Legions don't agree...they also can't figure out why the fans don't embrace those Legions like they did previously...it's pretty easy to see why for me.


It's not because of Cosmic Boy's characterization is different...trust me, most people don't really notice that, nor do they care.


What he was saying was that when Paul Levitz finally got around to reading the 5YG Legion, which was some 5 years after it was first published, he said it was the worst weekend of his life spent outside of a hospital.

He says it in the Legion Compantion, and he reiterated it a few weeks ago at the New York Comicon...

And he was sitting right next to Keith Giffen when he said it...


Which then prompted an explantion from Keith Giffen...

He basically said he didn't intend to permanently destroy the Legion's future by tuning it into a dark dystopian future that was completely unrecognizable from the future of the original Legion, he said it was only meant to be temporary.

In other interviews he has said he was doing the best he could, as did the Bierbaums, of working around DC's editorial policy concerning Superman at that time. Which was a huge problem considering they had a great deal of stories they wanted to tell but couldn't since they couldn't even reference Superman.


In short, the only rationale for calling the V4 the original is because at the time, DC said so. Because there's no logical tie you can come up with by reading that version of the Legion. The books lack of appeal with a new or old audience equalling the old...hammers this point home.

It's simply lays claim to being the original, because I guess DC said it was.


DC isn't saying that anymore, now they're saying the Action Legion is. The difference is, the Action Legion does have similiarities, well, it at least has the essential similarity, of being part of the Superman Family, and is pretty recognizable as the original.


For instance Dawnstar...didn't take me 30 issues to realize that was her(and the creators didn't need to tell me it was her), I simply looked at her and recognized it as being her. Completely different from my experience in V4 where only liks 2 people(and I'm not one of them) recognized Dawnstar before the creators had to directly explain in story that she was Bounty.


Sorry, but V4 was not the original Legion, and if it was, it was only because DC said so. And they aren't saying that anymore, they haven't been saying it for a long time, like since the first time they had to reboot it.


DC says a lot of things...in this case, they said it was the original...and the fans of the original said otherwise when they didn't support it.

They said Mon-El was now Superboy and the casual fans said otehrwise when they didn't recognize Mon-El from Adam...and his series was cancelled after 20 issues.


Saying something is doesn't make it so...and that's definitely true with V4 and it's claims of being the original Legion. Ultimately, that decision will be made by the fans(both old and new), and their interest, or lack of it...

I see this entire thread gets into typical Legion-fan turf: bash any version of Legion that isn't the poster's favorite.

The only "original" Legion was Adventure #247; every Legion that has appeared since has had differences. Levitz was a beloved era (including by me), but was no more or less "original" than any other.

It is a shame that Shooter's talent would be squandered, if the rumor is true. Even those of us not 100% thrilled with all of his issues thus far might hopefully agree upon that.

Unilateral declarations of dropping the book do not impress me, frankly. Bravo, you've drawn lines in the sand. The Legion has made it through far worse periods than this. I fail to see how demonizing Johns makes anything remotely better.

I didn't bash it...I merely stated the truth.


And I feel the point I am making is essential for all Legion fans for one simple reason...


All of us, I believe, all of us, hate the continual massive retcons and reboots to this book. I am not talking about minor ones. I am talking about gutting huge swaths of it's history...which has been done basically 4 times now since 1986, the first one was done out of a stupid editorial policy...all the others were done for commercial reasons.


I see this debate go on and on between Legion fans...how to keep the book from being rebooted, how to make it better...and most of it is stuff DC has been doing for the past 20 years that failed to attract a new audience on the level DC sought.

As a long time fan, I know why DC keeps rebooting this book, becuase they once had a ravenous fan base that impacted the companies decision making with their commercial buying power. They once had a book that was consistently one of DC's elite sellers from the Silver Age all the way up until 1986.


This book hasn't lost favor because of bad writing...

They have had gifted writers attempt to do this book...

Mark Waid
Gail Simone
Keith Giffen
Roger Stern
DnA..

Those guys are not hacks...they are like a whos who k=list of hot writers over the past 2 decades of comics...yet they have all hit the wall.

I feel pointing out that huge demarkation point between the Pre Crisis Legion and the Post Crisis Legion, all the Post Crisis Legions is essential to the books continued publication...and that is something I want.

And I have been silent for most of the past 25 years. I've given every Legion a chance, I've bought them all more or less regularly...but now I see the one that IMO will achieve DC's goals...it just so happens to be my personal favorite..and I will fight to keep DC(and hardocre Legion fans and creators) from making the same mistake they made originally...and that's underestimating the importance of Superman to this title's ability to be an elite(and thus less frequently rebooted) seller.


Some way more major than others...and the failure to realize this is what has lead to the books bidecadal rebootings for the better part of 2 decades.

It aint the writing.


I agree...I hope DC didn't just Shooter as some sort of fodder...I don't think they did that though...you can accuse Didio of many things, but not being a fan of oldschool writers isn't one of them...he's definitely a fan of them.

People shouldn't have to buy a book they don't want to read...and I say this as a guy who has bought all the versions of the Legion. And you can be a true Legion fan without embracing all Legions...if you don't like it you shouldn't have to read it, there should be no loaylty there if the things that made you loyal are no longer there.

I personally understand that everyone does have their favorite...more power to them, my issue is ending the bidecadal reboots, and that's not going to happen until they get a version that sells at the level they want it too...and that's not going to happen until DC either gets Alan Moore(or perhaps Jim Shooter himself) to write the book...or figures out what was so conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place.

It's not a matter of caring. They don't seem to respond to rumors as a matter of course.

It might be nice if they did, but DC isn't responsible if people drive themselves bat-**** crazy over one line in a rumor column.

You assume that what was "conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place" is actually going to sell well in today's market. And I see no reason to think it would.

What does sell these days is events. And what will make the Legion sell is when they can convince Joe Blow DC fan that buying the latest issue of the Legion will be necessary to follow the events of the latest, greatest company-wide crossover, and that if they don't follow the Legion they won't be there for the vast changes that will ripple throughout the entire DC Universe. And since that seems to be exactly where DC has decided the Legion needs to go, they probably will be successful in making it a big seller again.

Which makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of DC as corporate, money-making entity. But has so little to do with what this Legion fan wants from a Legion title that it isn't even funny.

This is not exactly an answer to Superboy, but more of my interpretation - take it as you like it.

I don't see how the LSH can be considered as "over" Post-Crisis for Superman being ret-conned out of LSH's continuity. Most of what came before was still acknowledged. Characters were still the same. Chronology was still in place. And, in spite of Superman's definitive importance on the creation of LSH, for me, he was never the essence of LSH. The idea that characters matured (meaning: time passes) has always been much more important to the concept of LSH than Superman in terms of storytelling.

That's why for me TKM's is still the very same LSH (with continuity problems? You bet, but not more so than X-Men) - most of the stories in the past were still valid (considering Mon-El substituted for Superboy/Superman). You found it hard to recognize Bounty as Dawnstar? This has probably more to Keith's intricate art than to storytelling. Call Ty Templeton for easier artist comprehension...

TKM's didn't change the characters, IMHO. It changed the whole environment of the book. And this was brilliant - because it brought the whole history of LSH to its maximum test. It may have polarized (which is what good comics do), but as for how people still give TMK's run its passionate following, it is hardly a "everybody hates" deal (like, uh, Tom McCraw's).

Reboot is ignoring EVERYTHING. This was what Zero Hour did. Not only that, everything was different. Gone were history, characters, concept... Ditto for Waid/Kitson's reboot. Theoretically, the idea of youth against adults makes some sense, but the way it was presented sounded absolutely simplistic and formulaic. I imagine that the 31st Century would be even more "gray-ish" than today. But not with Waid: everything was black and white.

That's the strenght of Jim Shooter's current run: he gave up on that, focusing more on the political dealings of the Legion and UP. Now I can see some sides (not simply ALL youth against ALL adults), some alliances. Characters started showing difficulties in handling leadership (isn't it obvious? So far, every Legionnaire was a natural born leader!)...

Just my 0.02. And, no, TMK's was still part of the original LSH run. Well, even Legion On The Run was part of it (unfortunately). The whole ship went down on Zero Hour.

Ricardo, Superboy and anyone else interested in discussing this post-Crisis reboot interpretation in depth, please consider stopping by the Roundtable--where, beginning with this post , we're currently debating this very subject as inspired by the train of thought began here! Looks like a very lively subject, indeed!

I know it sold well the last time it was available, and it didn't get retconned because it stopped selling.

I've seen absolutely no evidence to indicate I might be wrong either...I have seen multiple versions of the Legion sans Superman not sell well though...and I don't think it was because of the writing.

And the sales performance of the Action Legion does seem to indicate I might be right. It sold well...

I think Superman is what makes the Legion unique...after all, he's not been a member of many teams, and the Legion was his first. I think he is a sales boost in Team Books...I think this is pretty well proven in the Justice League...


IT's a simple matter of the Legion's future world becoming more inviting and familiar with a well known character being a part of it. I think that is a cross generational appeal...and I think it will improve the books chances of success.


If you think about it...most successful teams do have a marquee character that is instantly recognizable, and the Legion really does not without Superman.

I realize trying to convice a Legion diehard of that is an impossible task...but I do think it's the truth.

I think if you just trot the Legion out there by itself...it's a typical Superteam...and one without the benefit of well known characters or even a Universe to operate in.

It's different for people that don't know the Legion than it is for people that do, and it's not the people that know the Legion that are the problem, it's the one's that don't....that's what I think.


DC's been trying to make it a big seller again for a long time...but it's just another team, and not a particularly inviting one for new readers.

Well everyone wants something different...but like I said, you aren't the problem, I'm not the problem...DC has us already...we're the 17-30k monthlyh that buy just about anything with the name Legion on it...DC doesn't have to worry about us...and in fact worrying about us, catering to us...is what has made the book inaccesible to new readers, for the most part.


Again...on this board, looking around you'd think the #1 character in all of comicdom that should be given his own solo series is Brainiac 5...but it just wouldn't go over that way with people that aren't reading the Legion.

That's what I think...DC has done a bunch of Post Crisis Legion, they've tried different things...but in one way they've all been similar, and that similarity is why we sit here fans of an oft rebooted and confusing title with a fragmented and frustrated fan base.

Assuming that the rumor is true (which it very well may not be) there is another posibility. If Shooter left it could be for personal reasons, not necesarily because of sales, sexuality, plots, or other comic related issues. People leave jobs for many other reasons other than just their work. It is also possible there were other issues in office not necessarily Legion related.

Even if this is true (Shooter leaving) why does it mean the end of the comic? Why does it mean they HAVE to start a new one? It doesn't! A new writer could come on and take over the curent title even if it is temporary until they find a solid writer they want that stays.

I wouldn't automatically assume the worst of anyone in this situation. Other than a rumor posted elsewhere on the net, there are no facts that I have seen. I suggest we enjoy the comic for what it is and each of us can choose what we will do based on what really happens when we find out.

Phantom Girl is right.

If the rumor is true, it could just be everyone's favorite "creative differences". And it wouldn't be the first time Shooter would be associated to those words.

Lardy- I'll be sure to join that discussion.


Ricardo - Just sayin', the MOS Mini came out 3 years before V4. IIRC The Pocket Universe Story came crossed over with Superman V2 #8 at the time Legion V3 #37 came out...so that means the MOS came out @ Legion V3 #28 was being published...add in the remaining 34 issues of the V3 Legion, the 3 month gap between the final issue of V3 and V4#1, and you are talking a period of well over 3 years.


For me it's like this...if you have a vase and the vase is shattered with some of the pieces lost forever, and you glue the remaining pieces together with a couple of replacement pieces thrown in...

Is it still the original?

If the Mona Lisa is lost and DaVinci paints an exact duplicate of it with the exception that the Mona Lisa herself is now a blonde...or has a mustache, is it the original?


And FWIW....to my recollection, the first time I ever heard the term reboot used to describe any comic continuity was by Tom and Mary Bierbaum describing their Legion work. IIRC, they said they didn't want to do a full reboot of the Legion...they said it around the time they were writing the Legion. In fact it might even be in one of the lettercols of V4.

Anyway....just to do my part to get this back on track(sorry guys)..


Like I said earlier...the Lightning Saga Legion was coming out before Shooter was back on the book.


Not to mention the fact that the publisher of DC is both a Shooter friend as well as a fan...a huge fan of Jim Shooter the Legion writer...probably the Fan most excited about Shooter's return to the Legion was Paul Levitz himself...and he's mentioned recently how much he's enjoying reading Shooter's Legion.

Jim Shooter's Legion for all we know is the reason Paul Levitz is even in comics...and they have a friendship going back 3 decades...


I dont' see Paul Levitz allowing Jim Shooter to be treated that way...it's one thing to not give him work with the company because of potential chemistry issues...it's entirely another to give him work and then unceremoniously rip it away from him.

Paul Levitz is generally well liked and has avoided controversy for most of his DC career...this would be a huge departure from the low-key way he's done things historically.



It's tricky...LITG was the column where his return was first rumored...and now it's saying his ouster is rumored...so LITG saying this does carry a fair amouunt of credibility...

At the same time...it doesn't add up, becuase Johns was doing his Legion thing before Shooter was even back...


Now if you guys want to say that Johns Legion is the reason Mark Waid and Barry Kitson bailed on the book...I could see a lot of legitimate reasons to speculate there...

Maybe Shooter was sick and tired of listening to Geoff Johns saying his reboot is the original Legion, and decided not to keep quiet about it.

Or maybe he got a look at LO3W and busted a gut.

to paraphrase a famous line: Executives do not have permanent friends or enemies. Merely permanent interests.

As far as I know, Waid quit because Kitson got exclusive with Marvel and he didn't want to continue without his co-plotter.

i have come to know a person (who can't keep a secret to save his life)who knows whats going on with dc and the legion who has dropped the bombshell of big news on me

then told me i cant tell a soul...i and i wont cause i like hanging out with him and his wife

you can always PM one of us.

Waid or Kitson had said very early in the threeboot run that they anticipated working on the book for only two or three years.

Mark Waid\'s take on Rich Johnston Perhaps over the top, but not indefensible.

id like to really i would, thats why i haven't posted in over a week..i was trying to think of away around what i prommsied, but my source rocks and i promised.

and him and his wife promised to do something with me in 2 weeks, if i want to do that fun thing, what i tell could end that so i have to keep my mouth shut.

by the way some in here is right about something

Is it any good, at least?

But... wait. You are from NJ... That's Keith Giffen's lair... hummmm.

to some it can be good, to others its going to blow

no i live in ny now

it is someone who has worked on the legion

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people?