Hiya! And welcome to the Dr. Gym'lls' edition of Lardy's Roundtable!

What's Lardy's Roundtable you ask? It's a roundrobin discussion of appropriate forum topics with a rotating, evolving focus! The original roundtable was here in the LSH forum and ran a whopping 68 pages last summer and discussed various Legion-related topics before finally running out of steam. The topics in the Roundtable weren't necessarily unique to other topics but had more of a conversational style that built on itself.

After thinking about it, I decided to revive the concept for Gym'll's, especially since in my opinion this forum could maybe use a little more juice. So we'll let things start rolling with a topic and see if the idea catches fire again!

First up.......

Alright, here's the sitch:

The economy has hit you really, REALLY hard in the wallet. You've crunched the numbers and you can only afford to buy as many as five titles a month. What are your five must-haves? (no fudging, please--no more than five!!)

The rules:

1) No Legion! If you're registered here, odds are Legion's gonna make the cut. But consider the current title is ending, L3W is published irregularly and only has 3 issues remaining and we don't know exactly what we're going to get yet with Adventure, so I think it's fair.

2) Minis are okay, so long as they have at least four issues left in them.

3) Please don't include titles already announced as cancelled, and if you choose Amazing Spider-man, that one counts as three titles. Upcoming titles already solicited are eligible, but make sure you feel strongly about them and can say why

4) No OGNs, trades, etc...just monthlies.

5) Finally, tell us why they are so awesome that they can't be missed in as many or as few words as you want!

Clear enough? Let's hear it!

My list:

*Green Lantern: My most traditional superhero pick on the list. What can I say? Geoff Johns is THE MAN, and GL is the title where he's clicking on all cylinders! I've always liked Hal Jordan, and Geoff literally brought him back from the dead. Awesome, awesome comic with no signs of letdown forthcoming.

*Scalped: Wow! Vertigo lives again for me! I'd been in a Vertigo recession since Y: The Last Man ended, but I read a column in Brubaker's Criminal about this title about Indian mob bosses, a kickass nunchuk-slingin', hard livin' main character with loads of secrets and enough eye-opening relevance about life on a Reservation--and I haven't looked back since! It's gritty, brilliant, full of shocks and very different from anything you'd normally expect from Vertigo! I'm hooked for the duration!

*Daredevil: I knew I had to pick an Ed Brubaker title for this list. Criminal would've made the cut, but it's currently on hiatus while Ed and Sean Philips fire up Incognito. In any case while Ed's Captain America is in a slight slump, DD is really beginning to fire on all cylinders! Ed spent much of his first two years trying to tie up the Bendis era, but he's really starting to rock out on the title! This title is evolving more and more and is starting to feel like a huge epic that harkens back to the salad days with Frank Miller.

*Walking Dead: The single title I'm most addicted to currently! The zombie apocalypse has arrived, and it's not over in two hours! With no end in sight, we follow an ever-evolving core of characters (because many, many die as we go along--even hugely popular ones!) as they struggle to survive not only zombies but each other! Not for the faint of heart but really, really satisfying horror because of the human element.

*The fifth was surprisingly hard to narrow down, but I'll go with The Immortal Iron Fist for the moment. This is a character who'd been the butt of jokes forever until Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction finally realized the character's potential when the started his new ongoing last year. I was always fond of Danny Rand, and those guys showed me why. I love the mysticism, the legacy and the overall coolness this title has. Best of all, it hasn't dropped off at all since Duane Swierczynski took over this year--one story arc under his belt, and I'm sold! How often does that happen when a lower tier character is revived and the hot creators leave? Not very often.

Other than GL, all of these have in common a more nontraditional gritty, realistic or stylized artistic take. I've become quite enamored of art that is less traditionally "pretty" in recent years, but they are all very well crafted and appropriate to their subject matter. (That said, I think Ivan Reis's more traditional Neal Adams-esque art style is absolutely gorgeous!)

So, anyway, that's what I would pare it down to out of the twenty or so titles I pick up each month--at the moment at least!

- GREEN LANTERN I concur for the most part with Lardy on this title, although I'm only cautiously optimistic about its future storylines. The Red Lanterns special was a huge disappointment to me, and it actually gets worse from re-reads (the layouts are utterly incoherent). I really think Geoff Johns is burning out in general -- it happens to a lot of talented writers who take on a lot of books at once. Blackest Night no longer seems like a sure thing -- besides Johns' burnout, there's also the factor that Ethan Van Sciver, who was originally supposed to draw that arc, will now be doing the Flash relaunch and Ivan Reis is taking his place; I love Ivan Reis, but I don't think he has the necessary atmospherics to be 100% right for Blackest Night. So why am I sticking with this book? Well, for one thing I'm hoping Johns proves me wrong -- after the dodgy Alpha Lanterns arc (which seems to have been done mostly as a favor to Grant Morrison), Johns came back in high style with Secret Origin, so maybe he'll find his third wind. And for another thing, I love Hal Jordan and I learned the hard way not to take him for granted, so I will be buying this title as long as Hal stars in it. I also have to mention that Green Lantern Corps almost made the cut, and it's an excellent book, but in a scenario like this one, I'd take Hal's book.

- THUNDERBOLTS If you've read the Adam Strange mini from a few years back, or the underrated and much-missed The Losers, you know that Andy Diggle delivers rip-roaring action like nobody else. But he's also great at characterization and dialogue (Moonstone: "Really, Songbird...that's no way to treat Prada.") It appears that this book is going to stray from its roots, but I don't mind because I was never a Thunderbolts fan in the first place. I'm just happy to have a great talent like Diggle playing around with the Marvel Universe toy chest.

- GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY A few years ago, DC was the place to be for space opera, with the Adam Strange and Rann-Thanagar War minis. These days, DC entrusts all their space opera stuff to that burned-out has-been Jim Starlin, while over at Marvel, DnA are, through this book, redefining the cosmos like no one since...well, Starlin back when he was good.

- WAR OF KINGS (Mini) And speaking of DnA, they're pitting the Shi'ar against the Inhumans, and for someone who loves The Imperial Guard and Crystal as much as I do, there's just no question I'll be picking this up. Having DnA's GotG artist, the phenomenal Paul Pelletier, on visuals is the icing on the cake.

- R.E.B.E.L.S. (Upcoming) While I wish it wasn't just Dox and Strata from the old team (no points for guessing which character I'd especially like to see come back), Tony Bedard's sincere love for L.E.G.I.O.N., and his commitment to this project makes it a no-brainer for me. I eagerly await the first issue.

Great question Lardy! And a hella-tough one for me to answer. As you know, I’ve traditionally collected most of the Marvel & DC output with my father, so this is very hard. But I will try to answer your question per your strict guidelines, since in general, I’m a fan of questions with strict guidelines

I will say this though: I would always collect Amazing Spider-Man, no matter what. So if it meant not eating breakfast in the morning three days a month to pick up the latest issue of ASM I would do that, even if the new creative team of Chuck Austen and Rob Liefield took over (I’m not saying I wouldn’t take the train into NYC and find Quesada at his local brewery and punch him out, but you get my drift). That all being said, I’m NOT going to include it on my list right now.

So:

Green Lantern – I echo everyone’s thoughts here. This is DC’s best comic book, and I think its been utterly fantastic since the rebirth of Hal. I like the way Geoff treats all the characters with respect, I like how he has made major parts of the GL mythos serious and interesting again (Sinestro, Hector Hammond, etc.). I like how Geoff has taken the overall GL mythos and expanded it exponentially in so many ways. Things like the yellow weakness being further explored and explained, and the more in depth and frankly better explanation of Parallax was brilliant. Geoff Johns IMO is a phenomenal talent and is definitely worthy of all the praise he gets—posters who don’t think so are just plain wrong . And this is the best comic he’s ever done.

Fables – At this point, Fables not only ranks up there with Sandman and Preacher, it ranks up there with Moore’s Swamp Thing and other of the greatest runs of all time in comics history. Its so good and yet every time I open up an issue I’m surprised by just how damn good it is. It continues to be a possible, and probable, pick for single best ongoing series in comic books, as it has for the last several years.

Captain America – Its been extremely tough to decide which of Bru’s best Marvel books IMO I would keep, or if I would just keep both: Captain America and Daredevil. Both are excellent beyond words and I can’t recommend them enough. (Lardy, I’ll still try to give Iron Fist a try soon, I just need to find my ‘entry’ to it). But at the end of the day, the comic book I probably have enjoyed the most in the last year has been Captain America. Everything about it just clicks on all cylinders: art, pacing, dialogue, characters, story, the ‘building’ sense to every issue. I absolutely love it. Its not only Marvel’s best comic, but its also a contender for best comic book in the industry. I trust Brubaker so much at the head of Cap’s title that anything he does from this point on I will be on board: keep Cap dead, bring Cap back, kill Bucky again, Sharon turns out to be a skrull (well, maybe there are some limits).

Guardians of the Galaxy – DnA showed signs of genius during their tenure on the Legion but they had many flaws. Likewise, so many of the GotG characters are just so great but have had so many poor storylines. Bringing them all together? Pure magic. THIS is the DnA comic book I’ve always wanted. THIS is the best science-fiction comic book on the market, hands down. I can see Edmond Hamilton, John Broome and Otto Binder picking this up off the rack and enjoying it, while at the same time I can see Jack Kirby doing the same. That latter is because beyond a science-fiction comic, this is action packed, filled with drama, and with a heightened sense of character-driven tensions between the Guardians and the various other characters. Paul Pelletier’s art is spectacular, reminding everyone that he is indeed the underrated premier artist that has been consistently been rocking my face off for over ten years. You don’t like or buy GotG? Ha! I always thought you were stupid, all of you, stupid!

The Umbrella Academy – There are several independent comics that have been immense surprises to me this past year like the Walking Dead, Mice Templar, Four Eyes (even one issue in), and of course Fallen Angel remains excellent. But one in particular blew me away so much that if it came down to it, I’d keep this over the large majority of the Marvel and DC’s I’ve always loved and collected, and that’s the Umbrella Academy. Gerard Way has come in with such an enthusiasm for being fun, being bizarre, being dramatic, being action-packed, and creating a mythology and history to characters that makes me beg to learn as much as I possibly can. Approaching each issue like an old Silver Age tale, he packs in soooo much information that I feel like not only did I get my money’s worth, I kind of made out on the deal.

SECRET SIX: This is a book geared towards my kind of morality. These characters define the word gray- they live their own code, they don’t want to be “evil” but have no desire to conform to society’s standards. From the original Villains United mini through now, they’ve shown to have a core of humanity inside them rivaling the Rogues. Gail tests them, and while they are flawed, they do a right thing, as best they know how. And they aren’t opposed to living it up a bit too.

THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY: You want kids with powers? Check. You like your X-drama, we got it. Love those wild Silver Age adventures? Here’s a few more for you. Gerard Way brings an energy to comics, the same Geoff Johns brought 10 years ago. He meshes the frivolity of days gone with the maturity of modern books, giving us the bright heroism we first loved. This book is everything everyone has been asking for in their comics for the last few years.

JONAH HEX: See Secret Six. And I’m not a westerns guy. But something about this bounty hunter and his gray uniform appeals to me. He’s cantankerous at best, mercenary to the core, and intriguing to read about. GrayPal give us realistic stories of the wild west, showing how morality has evolved as civilization grows. And stories are told in one issue, for most of the run. This is a fine example of what monthly books can be. It’s a little gritty for younger readers, but there’s always a sense of justice in Hex’s world, if not in the story proper.

GREEN LANTERN CORPS: Not pronounced “Corpse.” Kyle is my Green Lantern, this is where I find him each month. Peter Tomasi is providing a good outlet for him, but still room to improve. It is a good ensemble book, bringing a number of characters with various personalities in a non-team fashion. Take Kyle out and I can’t guarantee I will stay, but it is a good book, worthy companion to the main GL title (which should be Hal and Kyle!)

GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY: If Kyle is my GL, DnA are my writers. I follow them wherever they go, and they don’t displease. This book might just be the perfect fit for them. Abnett is a sci-fi writer by day, so he’s at home here. They bring an earthy feel to the space opera. It’s action and comedy. Like Cobie said, the cast haven’t had the greatest success or longevity, but here they all work.


I struggled with the list because you mentioned keeping out books I know are cancelled- Birds of Prey and Nightwing. And I collect a lot of higher selling books (like TWD) in trade for cost effectiveness. Looking at my list (and my Buy Pile post) it surprised me to see books under the #50 mark.

I kind of surprised myself too. I was surprised that I included the Umbrella Academy because I don't go as crazy about as some others, but I realized that I just really have so much fun reading that comic, you know? I get "that feeling" when I read Umbrella Academy...that same feeling I get when I read the Englehart Avengers stories, the Silver Age Spideys, Crisis on Infinite Earths...where I feel like I'm 12 years old, its 1:00 AM on a late Saturday night and everyone has fallen asleep but I've somehow tricked my way into staying up to read comics and drink soda and eat pretzels or something and the world is exactly how I want it to be. I've been chasing that feeling ever since I turned 14.

GREEN LANTERN: I waited over ten years for this title! Hal's return to greatness with a great writer and artist who understand why Hal's awesome!

JUSTICE LEAGUE (upcoming): Hal and Ollie start their own League -- 'nuff said!!

DAREDEVIL: Better than Bendis' run, the best thing on DD since Miller that wasn't just dusting off Miller's toys.

THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST: This title figured out how to make a kung fu guy relevant in the Marvel Universe and deepens the mythology without shoe-horning in aliens or other weirdness just to be unexpected.

AGENTS OF ATLAS (upcoming): Secret Agent, Gorilla-Man, Killer Robot, Man from Space, Woman from Atlantis. What else could you want??

Fables is one of those Vertigo titles I missed the boat on when it first started up, but you can bet I'll be TPBing it like crazy soon enough. In fact I may start with my next In-Stock Trades order after the holidays. (if you're not ordering TPBs thru IST, you're missing out on some terrific deals!)

Des knows I also love Bru's Cap, but I'd say DD has the edge over Cap in the intensity level at this exact moment. Cap's currently kind of finding a status quo, which is something it hasn't done previously in its whole run! It's still excellent, but hold me to one Bru title at this moment and DD's got the edge.

And what entry point do you NEED for Iron Fist exactly, Des? Volume One trade "The Last Iron Fist" ain't easy enough? Don't force me to give you a Scalped-style talkin' to again!!!

I've recently acquired issues 1-7 and intend to rip thru them in the next coupla weeks. GotG, Nova and Incredible Hercules are three Marvel titles I've bought the entire runs of recently based largely on their LW buzz! I eagerly anticipate catching up on them all!

This is also on probably my very next IST order. I don't know how in the hell the guy behind the atrocity that is My Chemical Romance could make ANYTHING worth reading, but I'm trusting that dozens of LWers and professional reviewers alike aren't conspiring to pull a huge joke on me!

Drake, do you concur with my assessment that Iron Fist has maintained the momentum very well since the creative team changed with #17?

Ceej, I was definitely surprised that no Kirkman titles made your list! Do you collect all of them in trades? Do you buy everything with his name on it (including Brit which he doesn't actually write)?

I never put this in the rules, but I'd thought about trade collectors and wondered if this limitation I set would force trade collectors to get their favorite trade books as monthlies instead. The theory being that if you can only afford five titles, then trades are definitely out of the question. (Just a thought, anyway--not moodifying the rules)

I collect TWD in trade. By the time Scott sunk his teeth in me, issues were in the 30's. It would be a monthly book if it weren't so popular; most of my trade collections are like that.

I do read Kirkman's Astonishing Wolfman monthly, but it's not in the top five. It's a fun title, just waiting for the real hook to grab me.

Thanks for the tip on In-Stock Trades! I'm trying to catch up on Walking Dead both ways: I'm working backwards to get all single issues to about #28/29 or whatever issue at that point is where a trade ends, and then I'll work upwards with trades from #1 on. I'm lax with ordering trades though so while I'm getting those back-issues more and more each time I go to the CBR, I really need to get the trades so I can finally catch up.

The Daredevil vs. Cap thing (about which is better) is the kind of arguement I enjoy profiting from . Both are just so damn good! Iron Fist is on my list of things to pick up immediately, along with Madman, which I think i will finally after all these years give a chance to (and possibly Hellboy). I also bought several Skaar: Son of Hulk recently but have yet to read them.

My list is being whittled down, even if LSH books haven't been ending left, right and center, because I'm expecting a big geographical move this summer (in fact, I'll be getting rid of a lot of comics, late 70s to late 80s DCs (only sporadically thereafter), 80s/90s indies, and Vertigo in particular. PM me any gap lists and I may be able to help out, or keep an eye out for a link to my list, once its compiled).

I prefer trades anyway, and series like Fables and Starman are to me preferable that way. Hoped Scalped becomes one of those collected series. Even old favorites like Sandman, AM's Swamp Thing and others where I have both original issues and Trades, I'm keeping the TPBs and unloading the issues.

I'm probably axing JSA with Johns' departure. I've been getting a bunch of indies that only come out 1ce or 2ce a year if I'm lucky, and they're all getting axed.

1. The Boys and
2. Hellblazer
might be the only books on my list in the near future. I've been following John Constantine/Hellblazer continuously since his 1st appearance, and even have a lot of AR apperances. And it's been decent lately as well.

The Boys is a hoot, a very black humor look at a geopolitical world of superheroes as part of the defence-contractor industrial complex. That it pokes fun at all the major SHs of both Marvel and DC doesn't hurt.

INCREDIBLE HERCULES: an exciting blend of superheroics, Greco-Marvel mythology (surprisingly the Greek part isn't so overshadowed by the Marvel part) and a buddy movie. Sort of like Route 66 on the river Styx. And humor's allowed.

JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA: Yeah, I know Johns is off the book soon- but I'm still hooked on these characters. I hope there's a lot more personal stuff ahead for them.

KINGBREAKER/WAR OF KINGS: Inhumans, big roles for Crystal and Medusa, Havok and Polaris, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Imperial Guard in one storyline? Written by DNA (the first time a former LSH writer's written the Guard?) I gotta see if this lives up to its potential.

WONDER WOMAN: Teenage talking gorillas. I don't need to type anything else.

TEEN TITANS: This is here due to the future involvement of Kid Eternity. If he ends up as a guest star, or the book sucks anyway, this slot'll go to GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY-- or better yet a LADY LIBERATORS series, if Marvel gets some guts and gives that a try.

They don't come out regularly enough to warrant space on the list, but I'd always find moolah for AGE OF BRONZE and A DISTANT SOIL.

My List:

JLA - This is the premiere team book
JSA - Being well-written right now
Flash - My favorite character


Can't think of any other that would constitute a must have.

I don't hit the shops as regularly as I used to so I don't really have a "must have" right away list that doesn't include all things Legion.

Still though...I always get Liberty Meadows in a stack of about five or six issues at a time. LM is one of the very best light reading comics I've read in years and years and Brandy is ULTRA hot.

Any and all Astro City one shots and specials since the (so called) ongoing series seems to have been lost to the time wasting nonsense of "regular work".

JSA for the time being. Whether or not I buy it in the futire is up in the air, we'll see what it's quality is like with the creative team switch but until then I just gotta have it.

Those Annoying Post Brothers by Matt Howarth. I'm a huge Howarth fan since the Bros. appeared in Heavy Metal back in the stone<strike>ed</strike> age. I get all the spin opffs and specials that show up too. He's uber weird and writes excellent sci-fi.

[plug] The Keif Llama - Xenotech series (by the same Matt Howarth) is fantastic! Last year 3 issues plus a new filler story were published as a trade called Particle Dreams and priced at 9.99 it's more than worth it to get it if you can find it anywhere.[/plug]

Hmm..looks like the only thing I buy that isn't in danger of cancellation or intermittent publishing breaks is JSA.

Interesting how much Green Lantern love there is. I haven't read a Green Lantern book since before Hal died. I'm afraid if I started buying it now, it would go bad.

Fables is a must have. I love the way the fairy tale characters are adapted and updated, but often keeping their old fairy tale ethics. Characters I'd forgotten about appear (like Rose Red). Willingham manages to get me interested in characters I thought would be boring, like Boy Blue and Flycatcher. The addition of the Arabian and India-based stories show how much scope Willingham has to continue this series.

Criminal/Incognito I'll put these down as one, since Brubaker is doing Incognito while on taking a break from Criminal. I'm not generally a hard-boiled detective/crime fan, but Brubaker won me with Sleeper - so I tried Criminal. The series has great stories, contained in arcs of several issues, with meaty interviews and essays at the end of each issue. I haven't even read Incognito yet, but since Brubaker describes it as a reverse Sleeper (bad buy pretending to be a good guy), I'm pre-hooked. (I'm surprised you didn't list this one, Lardy.)

Guardians of the Galaxy - space opera, but with small enough a core of characters that I don't get lost, since these are all new to me. Interesting background concepts, lots of strange secondary aliens and probably the best animal characters I've read (outside of a strictly animal book like We3).

Top Ten - I'll take a flyer on this, since I've only read the first issue, but I loved the complexity and easter egginess of the original Top Ten and it looks like it's continuing with this second series.

The last one's a tough call, between Ambush Bug and Umbrella Academy. I'll go with Ambush Bug for the guaranteed cheap laughs.

I approached Fables with an open mind. Watching Fractured Fairy Tales was one of the highlights of my childhood, and reading the un-sanitized Brothers Grimm was one of the highlights of my tweens, so I thought I might like it. I read the first trade and I thought it was pretty good, but it didn't excite me enough to keep going with it.

I think Fables' sister Vertigo title Madame Xanadu (which narrowly missed my Top Five only because I've only read one issue so far) might be the flip-side of Fables. Both are adult-oriented approaches to well-known and well-sanitized folk tales, but where Fables is ironic and irreverent, Madame Xanadu plays it completely straight and, to my taste, works better.

Tough Choices...

Green Lantern/Green Lantern Corps - I consider them to be a single book much like LSH/Legionnaires were. (To me at least)

JSA... For now...

Dynamo Five - If you're not reading this one you should be.

Jack of Fables - Gets beter with each issue

Noble Causes - Think Dallas with Capes

ok....

The Walking Dead - I don't think I can add anything to whats been already said about this one. Excellent read, superb characterization, stellar art.

Fables - Once again a title that seems muched loved here. I like it because its a fanastic story.

GI Joe - Theres actually several Joe titles being released over the next few months. I was a huge fan of GI Joe as a kid (both the toys and comics), and am willing to give this a shot.

Lenore - This one isn't on anything resembling a regular schedule but when it comes out I get it. Very funny, in a twisted kind of way.

Can't really decide on a fifth title.

The Walking Dead

Justice Society of America

The Flash

Ambush Bug - I wish this was an ongoing)

Legion of Three Worlds (Then the new Legion book, whatever the name may be)

THE WALKING DEAD

GAURDIANS OF THE GALAXY

JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA

SECRET SIX

A fifth must-have? Hmm... AMBUSH BUG only has 2 issues left... or it would make the cut for certain. MARVEL ZOMBIES is a series of miniseries and the current one only has 1 issue left... hmm. I think I'll give the last slot to a quarterly:

FRANKLIN RICHARDS

Ditto. I was a huge Hal fan, until Owsley.

It was tempting to list Incognito instead of Iron Fist or Daredevil, but I went with comics that I've actually had in my hands. Make no mistake, I'm picking up Incognito (out this week, I think?)...but I never annoint anything before I've actually read it as being one of the very best comics!

Yeah, I know it probably will be based on my love for Ed and Sean's work together, but there's no guarantee it'll capture lightning in a bottle like Sleeper did. (Man, I loved Sleeper!)

So I'm sure it'll be awesome, but let me read at least an issue first, 'kay?

So with 14 people responding, the Top Five vote-getters were:

1) Guardians of the Galaxy & Justice Society of America (Tie: 5 votes apiece)

2) Green Lantern (4 and a half votes--I counted Abin's GL/GLC combo as half apiece)

3) The Walking Dead (4 votes)

4) Fables (3 votes)

That's an interesting result. I read 3 of these. Of the two I don't, I've recently acquired the Guardians issues, but haven't read them yet, and I plan on starting picking up the trades on Fables sometime in '09.

I'm curious...if you don't get any of these, is it possible that this result has piqued your interest in trying out any of them soon?

Okay, so let's turn the topic around....

...what titles (as many as five) that you are currently getting would be the easiest for you to drop right now?

(try to observe the rules of the other challenge..i.e. title isn't already known to be ending soon, etc.)

I'm not getting that many more than five - easiest to drop would be the irregular issues (Berlin and Mouse Guard - I even forget about them until they show up in my box) or the limited series (Atomic Robo and Umbrella Academy). I'd probably get those in TPB, though.

I'll probably check out Green Lantern, since it's been so well recommended. (The other one I'm going to pick up is Madame Xanadu, but mostly from comments made in the Vertigo titles thread. It didn't figure that strongly here.)

As someone looking to get less (and indeed get rid of 1/2 my comics) in anticipation of a big move... no.

1) Guardians of the Galaxy & Justice Society of America (Tie: 5 votes apiece)

Already get JSA (for the next month or three, anyway)

I'd probably eventually get GotG in TPB several years from now, if it holds up.

2) Green Lantern (4 and a half votes

As an old-time GL fan, I felt even more wrung through the ringer by the Owlsey/Emerald Yawn/Reign of the Supermen/Parallax/Spectre era than even the most gilted Legion fan could feel (LSH as a collective never went evil/crazy/undead/alcoholic etc).

I guess I felt so burned by prior GL runs that as good as this era might be it's hard to feign interest - I'd always be expecting the other shoe to drop. In 10 years, maybe I'll get the trades.

3) The Walking Dead (4 votes)

no interest at all.

4) Fables (3 votes)

I get this in trades already.

I certainly will always give my fellow LWers reccomendations a shot, and in fact have been doing that a whole lot more lately with great results. If not for Pov (Umbrella Academy), CJ & Scooter (Walking Dead), Blacula (Madame Xanadu), Reboot (Agents of Atlas) and so many others, I would be missing on out a bunch of stuff. And now Lardy, you will have contributed with Scalped, once I get a few moments to read it

Titles I could drop quickly? Well, some titles my father and I continue to get because in some instances one of us will decide its not worth getting anymore, but the other will want to keep getting it. For me:

(1) Hulk - worst Marvel comic I buy right now

(2) Teen Titans - this is the absolute lowest point in Titans history, worse than the 90's.

(3) All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder - I honestly only buy this because its a train wreck and I like Jim Lee's art. Its like buying something to see it crash and burn. So if it came down to it, no, I certainly don't need this comic. Frank Miller reaches the level of genius sometimes, but this is assuredly the worst comic book work he's ever done.

(4) Justice League of America - I can't understand how anyone can have enjoyed any of this relaunch. Sure, its a great line-up, and sure, the artwork is pretty spectacular, but I've yet to see even good storyline by Meltzer and even McDuffie, who I usually like.

(5) Astonishing X-Men - This has got to be the comic that both X-Fans and X-Strangers can agree is completely overrated, overhyped and outright boring.

Which ones would I drop? This was hard because I've just recently started picking up some new titles, many of which I haven't read any or enough of to form a decisive opinion, yet. So I tried to limit my choices to titles I've at least read three to five issues of.....

1) Runaways: Cheating a bit here because I picked up my last issue last week. But what a horrible disappointment this was! I'd heard many good things about Moore, and I'd enjoyed Ramos's art in the past--but UGH! I really miss Vaughn & Alphona.

2) Action Comics: NOT excited about the exits of Johns and Kal-El and the entrance of a new Nightwing and Flamebird. Who knows--it could be a fan-favorite run, but I don't know if I'm willing to take that chance.

3) Invincible Iron Man: There's absolutely nothing wrong with this title--it's very well-written and drawn, but I'm just not a big Tony Stark fan. If I were in a pinch or if Matt Fraction jumped off, I'd have no trouble dropping it. It's a good, good comic, though. Weird, huh?

4) Booster Gold: This is probably a knee-jerk reaction to an 4 awful issues of fill-ins after Johns and Katz left, and I haven't read the first Jurgens-written issue yet--but this title is in huge danger of running off the tracks. I'm hopeful that Jurgens can right the ship, but four issues of barfy fill-ins was a mistake!

5) Angel: After the Fall: They're really dragging out the "LA in Hell" storyline. Recent issues have had very little progress in the story. To me it's obvious Joss Whedon's hand is not as firm here as it is on Buffy's title. It's had his moments, but I can't help but think the story could've been told better in 10-12 issues.

It's tough to say... comics I would drop I usually do. There have been books I've held on too long. Case in point:

1: Green Arrow/Black Canary Winnick's work has been hot and cold before our heroes got married. Since then, it's been just meh. I hope the new writer can make it work.

2: GLC I put this on my faves list because Kyle Rayner is in it, and he's a favourite character. If he left the book, so would I.

3: RASL Jeff Smith has me very interested in the story. But the 6 months between issues makes me forget it's even on my reading list. I could drop it and collect in trade years from now and not feel like I missed something.

4: X-Factor PAD is giving me a good story, but the art is in constant flux. If Marvel doesn't care about the book, why should I?

5: The Authority The Wildstorm books get bad rap from their history. With the recent World End storyline, they've really taken a chance. That said, when DnA leave (left already) the book, I think this could be the weakest of the relaunches.

Five keepers:

1) Morrison/Quietley Batman As much as I liked RIP, I'm skipping Battle for the Cowl as it seems irrelevant, but if the rumours are true about Grant & Frank taking on Batman, I'll be there for that.

2) Hellblazer - Peter Milligan is consistently one of my favourite writers and if he can bring some of his old Vertigo magic back for this title, I'll be very happy.

3) Madame Xanadu - This has been a great read, and an interesting take on the character. Plus it's got that old Swamp Thing vibe, where DCU elements are blended in quite nicely with the adult storytelling.

4) Secret Six - while the first storyline is losing a bit of steam for me, I have faith Gail bring this title back up to it's awful goodness.

I'm at a loss for the fifth one. I'd Say Ambush Bug or Sub-Mariner, but those are both ending soon. I'm really on the fence about Willingham writing JSA, and may wait for the trade on Superman: Secret Origin.

I'm going to pass on this round. As I'm in school now, I recently dropped almost all my titles until I start working again (plan on buying back issues when I start working again).
So all told I dropped about 20 titles, maybe more.

5 easy drops...

BRAVE & THE BOLD... which I have JUST dropped...

TINY TITANS (it's cute and all, but if I had to...)

GREEN ARROW/BLACK CANARY... I can follow Dinah in JLA...

SHE-HULK... It just isn't the same post-Slott...

Hmmm... I may need to go check my pulls... BOOSTER GOLD is too fun to drop, JLA is a good way to keep track of many characters... BOP is already cancelled... it's likely between TITANS and TEEN TITANS... I'll go with...

TEEN TITANS... that damned 80s nostalgia keeps me with plain-TITANS...

Cool answers!

So, changing subjects...what is currently the best creative team on a title you enjoy that's currently being published? Please give us some insight about why you think so and how it might compare to other past creative teams you hold in high regard.

Even though they've only been a team for two issues, I have to say Andy Diggle and Roberto De La Torre, because Thunderbolts # 127 was one of those history-making great issues where words and pictures are so perfectly synchronized that it seems almost magical. They give the printed page the kind of excitement that I felt my early days of superhero comics from teams like Peter David & Dale Keown on Hulk or Bob Harras & Steve Epting on Avengers or, more recently, Peter David & Pablo Raimondi on the Madrox mini-series and (all-too-briefly) on X-Factor or DnA and Paul Pelletier on Guardians of the Galaxy. When writer(s) and artist are so in tune with each other you would think they're sharing one mind when they work, even though you know that they probably don't socialize with each other and might not have even met face-to-face.

Get Thunderbolts # 127 off the racks or as a back issue! Give it a chance!

Stealth, those are pretty big words considering just the two issues. Lotsa variables, including whether or not they will be together longterm. In this day and age, it's hard to keep a writer and artist together even for a whole story arc. Hopefully, Diggle and De La Torre will be one of those, going by your enthusiasm. Maybe I'll check 'em out....

There are definitely some good candidates out there on current or recent projects that I read: Geoff Johns has terrific collaborations with Ivan Reis on Green Lantern, Gary Frank on Action Comics and the upcoming Superman: Secret Origin, Scott Kolins on Flash, Rogues Revenge and the Solomon Grundy one-shot and George Perez on Legion of Three Worlds. Jason Aaron and R.M. Guera are making some magic on Scalped. Robert Kirkman has awesome collaborations with Charlie Adlard on Walking Dead and Ryan Ottley on Invincible.

Honestly, there are a lot more great teams out there than I thought there were. But it comes down to Ed Brubaker's books for me and how all three projects he's currently working on are instant classics borne of a special synergy with his artists. Who can dispute what he and Steve Epting have done on Captain America? And he has a long history with Michael Lark, dating back to Gotham Central and currently bearing fruit for us on a gripping run on Daredevil.

But it's Brubaker and Sean Philips who I think set the bar for other creative teams in the industry. From Sleeper to Criminal and now to Incognito, this duo has produced about 44 issues of some of the very best comics I've ever read. I'd never been a huge fan of "gritty" art before I encountered Sleeper, but their collaborations have really opened my eyes in appreciation. Their words and pictures complement each other perfectly. Sure, they've never done a straight superhero comic, but I bet if they did it would kick some serious ASS! Brubaker and Philips set the bar in a way that compares favorably to the best collaborations Frank Miller & Klaus Janson. I'd say they're the Miller and Janson of this era and could probably teach Frank and Klaus a few tricks!

I tend to follow writers more than teams, but anything by Brubaker and Philips is going to get my attention (and quite likely my money) simply because they've captivated me with everything they've done so far. At first, I didn't like Philips' art, but it's grown on me and it has a distinctive style. I don't think Brubaker's crime stories would have the same feeling drawn by anyone else at this point.

Another team that makes me sit up and take notice is Morrison and Quitely. I haven't chased down everything they've done, but All Star Superman, We3, Flex Mentallo stand out from the crowd.

I can't think of a writer/artist team I follow, but Simone and Scott are making me take notice. They were great on BOP and are amazing on Secret Six. Given time, these two will be a force to know in the comics world. Simone writes characters from iconic to twisted, funny through romantic, and Nicola Scott has managed to draw it all.

Like FC, I tend to follow writers more than teams, though some artists will get me to buy their books too. In fact, I'd say the Darwyn Cooke/Darywn Cooke team is probably my favorite

But to answer the question, probably right now I'd say DnA with Paul Pelletier. I've always liked DnA a real lot (and hey, I was one of the original posters who named them DnA in the first place!), but I don't think their Legion run was the greatest thing ever like some people--I'd call it 'great' but not 'one of the greatest'. Well, with everything they've done at Marvel in the last 3-4 years, I can now throw that notion away, because what they are doing now is some of the greatest stuff they've ever done, some of the greatest stuff in comics in general, and some of the greatest science-fiction space opera ever in comics. They are peaking right now, and have hit a level where they're just firing on all cylinders. Everything from pacing, to dialogue, to grand plots, to small character moments, to using very different characters interactin to their advantage is just so good I can't help but eat it up. And I especially like how they balance a solo title (Nova) with a team book (Guardians of the Galaxy), and I think War of Kings has the potential to be incredible.

Paul Pelletier is their partner on GotG, and he's an artist I've followed for years, since the mid-90's. His runs on Flash, Green Lantern (with Kyle) and the 90's Outsiders book (which hey, I thought was pretty groovy) were awesome because of his art. Then he went through a phase where it seemed like he wasn't really doing much, but then suddenly popped up at Crossgen with Negation and reminded everyone why he's an A-lister artist. Now he's made it over to Marvel and with DnA giving him a wide range of charaters and situations, he's really showing what a tremendous talent he is.

So in effect you have probably the best science-fiction team of authors in comics teaming up with one of the best science-fiction artists in comics, and they're just knocking it out of the park. While War of Kings is running, Pelletier is joining DnA there while another artist fills in for him on GotG, but that's cool with me, because I'm buying both and I'd like to see him draw the Inhumans and the Vulcan/Shi'ar characters along with everyone else.

Its a little hard to find a comparison that I really think works, because I won't be obvious and say something like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, which this team is nothing like. Because DnA are so specific and almost clinical in their delivery of every bit of the story, they remind me slightly of the greats Edmond Hamilton or John Broome who were masters at story-telling, pacing and using science-fiction to the stories advantage. Meanwhile, Pelletier's art is explosive and adds a lot of 'oomph' and action to some low level action sequences, giving the book a charge of energy even during dialogue sequences, so in that respect he does have hints of that Kirby style that Walt Simonsin, Neal Adams or even Todd McFarlane have. Not that his art looks anything like theirs, which it doesn't, but it has that same type of high-energy to it. In fact, his art is very pleasing on the eyes, while all those other guys don't always have that...Pelletier makes his characters full of emotion and yet also very atractive, which is a very modern combination of past styles.

So in other words, they are rocking right now, and definitely on my radar as one hell of a combination. I picked up the War of Kings mini-series entirely on the basis of their involvement.

When I think of Pelletier, the main artist that leaps in my mind for comparison's sake would be Alan Davis. I'm not saying at all that Pelletier is an Alan Davis knockoff, but their styles remind me of each other in a way. A very clean, yet dynamic style that harkens back to Perez and Byrne while simultaneously having a modern, progressive feel to it.

I'm happy for Paul and how he's finally getting his due. Yes, he got some attention for Negation specifically, but being the artist on a big Marvel event is certainly a big step up. And certainly Guardians has to be one of the very biggest "buzz" books in all of comics.

And, wow, DnA! In the past few weeks I've read their entire run to date on Nova (including the Annihilation mini), and I am beyond impressed. I never gave a lick one way or another about the character before, but now, I'm a fan because of this great writing team and a number of talented artists they've worked with.

Guardians, I've only read the first two issues, but own all the rest except, frustratingly, issue three (the second printing copy I obtained of issue three had the contents of an issue of Ultimates 3 inside instead--YUCK! ), so I'm waiting to fill that one-issue gap before I proceed further. But those two issues sure are groovy!

I, too, am buying War of Kings because of DnA's (and Paul's) involvement. As good as their Legion work was, they've MAJORLY outdone themselves with their recent work at Marvel!

If we're talking writers... I would follow DnA anywhere. From ForceWorks to Legion to Shadowman to GotG, they manage to make each book distinct. They defined USAgent and Monstress, brought creepy to Legion and Shadowman; they know how to tailor a book and make it distinct.

For that matter, GrayPal are of similar caliber. They made Hawkman soar after Geoff Johns left. They knock it out of the park each month with Jonah Hex. Justin Gray and Jimmy Palmiotti have written some of the best characters in some of the lesser known books at both Marvel and DC.

I'd follow either team to any book they write.

Hm, one topic I'm interesting in is what current non-superhero comics are people reading that they're really digging. Anyone whose paid attention to my posts on Legion World in the last (6) months has seen I've gone out of my way to pick up things like different war comics, pure science-fiction comics like Dan Dare, and I'm a huge supporter of Jonah Hex and a large portion of the entire Vertigo line.

Don’t get me wrong, I love superhero comic books. In fact, I buy most of the DC and Marvel superhero titles and always have. Know my Dad and I buy at least 50 superhero comics from Marvel and DC alone. But lately I feel that so many creators, particularly at DC, are just getting the superhero genre all wrong, and so I’m enjoying a further branchout into other genres.

In fact, I’d say the current non-superhero comics I’m buying are (likely I’ll leave something out):

Vertigo
House of Mystery
Fables
Scalped (in trades)
Madame Xanadu
Unknown Soldier
Haunted Tank
Young Liars
Northlanders – trying it out

DC
Jonah Hex
SGT Rock

Icon / Marvel
Criminal
Incognito
Powers
Dark Tower comics

Dynamite Entertainment
Battlefields: The Night Witches (and will get other Garth Ennis war comics)

Image
Waking Dead
Four Eyes
Mice Templar
Armed Forces

Dark Horse
Umbrella Academy? – this might count as a superhero comic

IDW
Fallen Angel (PAD’s masterpiece)

Other
Atomic Robo – I will get to this in the thread once I read it. Lets say I came late to the party and plan to rectify the situation. Less Pov come down to casa de Cobalt and give me a spanking.

I’m also drawn lately to comics that are more ‘something else’ than superheroes. For example, DnA’s Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy are far more science-fiction than superhero books and that’s why they’re so good lately. I wish the Legion would get back to that slightly (hell, I wish Superman would get back to that). The Spirit is a crime comic, pure and simple, but I have to admit its been pretty lackluster since Cooke left. Marvel seems to have really gone all out in making some of their traditional superhero comics more outside the superhero genre: Thor, Incredible Hercules, Agents of Atlas, the aforementioned Nova & Guardians of the Galaxy, Skaar Son of Hulk and a few others are all able to stand apart from the typical superhero fair and give us something different. Captain America is basically a spy book and Daredevil is essentially a crime comic, so those have a nice niche too.

I’ve also picked up some random things: (1) Chuck Dixon’s war comic by Wildstorm, but I’m not sure if I’ll finish the series as it was ‘okay’ thus far; (2) Dan Dare, which was a blast but is currently over (and may now resume at IDW), (3) Skaar, Son of Hulk, which was pretty good but I don’t know if I’ll go back for more. Maybe, as I bought more than half the series.

That's a really excellent point, Des! I'm finding that a lot of the superhero comics I'm enjoying the most are also "something else". Obviously the Legion is a prime example of a superhero/sci-fi hybrid that I've enjoyed a lot. To your list, I'd add Booster Gold, which is based steeply in the sci-fi/time travel genre as much or more than it is a superhero book. And of course, Green Lantern and GLC have a lotta space opera genre going for them as well. And don't forget Iron Fist and how it's waaaay more a Kung Fu genre book than it is a superhero book!

I'd say over 70 % of the superhero comics I get are not pure superhero books and have that "something else" going for them. So I'd say the two biggest common denominators most of the comics on my pull list share is: 1) they tend to be "something else" either in addition to a superhero book or without any superhero trappings in some cases, and 2) they tend to be insular, meaning they're pretty much standalone and cross-over free.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the most purely superhero titles I read now are Invincible Iron Man, Justice Society, the Superman titles and Kirkman's Invincible.

Also off the top of my head, the titles on my current pull-list that are superhero-free are:

Walking Dead
Scalped
Criminal (I'm not sure Incognito belongs on this list)
Buffy Season 8
Angel: After the Fall
Crossed (Avatar Press)

It's not a very long list right now, but I can see it beginning to expand greatly as the year goes on, and I discover new books.

Yeah, I'd say the super-hero books I'm enjoying these days that aren't heavily weighted in some other genre are few and far between. I totally agree that Green Lantern and GLC are VERY science-fiction oriented these days, and while Booster Gold is very super-hero-ish, the time travel aspect does allow for an even sci-fi/superhero level, which really works for the title.

Probably the pure superhero comics I'm enjoying are the ones you mention with some others (Spider-Man, Blue Beetle).

A major part of the Silver Age that differentiates it from other ages is that it was so heavily based in science-fiction, and to a lesser degree, crime & war comics. Its pleasantly surprising to see we're in an era where the same applies to a certain degree right now. I realized this recently when I was looking at the comics I'm most enjoying. I certainly wouldn't mind the Superman books being more science-fiction based and Iron Man going off a little more to specific niche.

And your point about the best current comics being 'insular' is well said. That's 100% true, and makes each comic much more enjoyable. Even though Captain America, GotG and Green Lantern Corps reference continuity, they pretty much stand alone, and show a spectacular example of how to work well in a shared universe and maintain a strict individual identity.

Definitely, Marvel has left Brubaker alone on his books. Cap, Daredevil and Iron Fist haven't had so much as a Secret Invasion banner on them! The closest his titles got was when Cap sported an "Initiative" banner on them immediately after Cap's death. But really, Bru did his own thing to enhance his storyline even in those issues. He obviously has some pull over there, and Marvel is wise to let him just work his magic.

I'm hoping Fractions Invincible Iron Man won't suffer too much as it ties into Dark Reign. The first issue was decent, so we'll see what happens there.

And two of Marvel's most enjoyable comics, Nova and Incredible Hercules, really used crossovers to tell excellent fairly self-contained stories. Hercules had that great "God Squad" arc where Herc and a crew of demigods go to take on the Skrulls gods. Nova had crossovers with Annihilation: Conquest and Secret Invasion that were well done. The former was more of a side story that was more about Richard dealing with the transmode virus and finding something to use against the Phalanx. The latter was set at Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. nad helped to set up the current storyline featuring the rebirth of the Nova Corps.

From what I've heard most of the other SI crossover books were tied in very directly and much more enslaved to the basic premise. That's definitely not my bag.

It's good that Final Crisis didn't have such and all-encompassing effect on the DCU. In general I prefer standalone supporting minis to crossovers in the actual ongoings. Given all the delays with FC that could've been very diastrous to an already-faltering DC line.

I'm excited, but also a little trepidatious, about Blackest Night. It's supposed to be on a much larger scale than the Sinestro Corps War was, involving more titles if I understand correctly. Hopefully, whatever happens, the story won't get too convoluted and spread too thin. We'll see!

Ladry, I was curious about your creators question, what with the impending change on JSA.

I wonder how many readers will drop the book when Johns leaves. Will it be because of the upcoming writers, or is that just a reason for dropping a book you've not been interested in? How many will add it to their list with Willingham and Stugris writing it (ME!)?

Marvel has Dan Slott taking over Mighty Avengers. Will that book see a drop in readers because it's not Bendis? Will someone add it because of Slott (Not me)?

Can a book gain/lose your interest with a creative shuffle? With a title consistently losing readers, would a change in creative teams help a failing title? Does it have to be a name you know or can an unknown garner your favour?

You'll find my answer in the All Avengers Thread.

Ceej, I personally plan on sticking with JSA after Johns leaves. It's personally my favorite non-Legion team by a mile. It would take the announcement of a writer I can't stand (like Winnick) to get me to leave that book. I'm not very familiar with Willingham's and Sturges's work, but I hear they've done good stuff. So I'm pretty optimistic.

I also think it's a good time for Geoff to move on and give someone else a chance. I've enjoyed the relaunch, but personally, I think Johns hit his peak with Black Reign and JSA/JSA in the old title. My opinion, at least.

Sometimes, I do jump off with creative teams; sometimes I don't. I stuck around on Iron Fist after Brubaker and Fraction left because I'd grown very fond of the title. I gambled on an unfamiliar writer and artist and kept picking it up. It paid off as the new team hasn't missed a beat.

Some people feel they have to follow characters no matter what. Longterm, the only title I've done that with is the Legion. I was like that for over a decade with the X-Men, but I eventually stopped fooling myself about them and have only sporadically picked it up since the mid-'90s. Similarly, I used to follow Batman, Superman & Spider-man through thick and thin. No more.

So I take it on a case-by-case basis. If I'm into the title and characters enough and have no beef with the next creative team, I'm likely to at least give the new team a chance. When Brubaker eventually leaves Cap and Daredevil, I'll have quite the decision ahead of me....

I take every approach possible with no real rhyme or reason. For example, I'll follow Spider-Man and over a dozen other characters no matter who is writing it.

A spectacular creative team could draw me to a comic but they really have to have *it*. Neither Dan Slott nor Willigham and Sturges would do that, but I planned on continuing those titles anyway. Particularly JSA, and I think Lardy captures why. Johns had a truly amazing run but I think the time has passed and he's moving on at the right time. Unlike many others, I feel that since the relaunch of a #1, it hasn't been as great as it once was. Not bad mind you, and in fact pretty good, just not as truly GREAT as it once was. I don't mind a little shake-up now. Plus, those are the guys on Fables, Jack of Fables and House of Mystery, so thats some grade A talent.

A switch in creative teams is enough to get me off a comic though, particulary in this scenario: I follow a run and am generally let down by a creative team I had high hopes for and then they're replaced anyway by a creative team I have even less hopes for. One example is Astonishing X-Men. Its consistently been letting me down for the last few years since the second arc, and now Warren Ellis is delivery about the most boring / yawn story in X-history. I wish I'd jumped off the new Atom and Birds of Prey after Gail left because they both basically blew chunks without her. I stuck around because I loved the characters and while I at least got to see the characters, the stories they were in generally stunk.

Wolverine is a title I only ever pick up if a great creative team comes on. I did so for Greg Rucka (let down), Mark Millar (probably best Wolverine story I've ever read) and a few others. I didn't pick up the latest Mark Millar run because it just looked like the type of story I'm sick to death of (alternate dark future? Thanks but no thanks). But if say Jeff Parker and Marcos Martin, two Marvel up and comers I'm crazy about right now, took over, I'd definitely deal myself in.

Honestly, I don't think there's any comic I'd follow indefinitely, no matter what, anymore...not even Legion. Legion would be the hardest to let go, but I wouldn't stick with it if the quality was abysmal by my standards. Of course, that's been taken out of my hands, at least for a while. But for whatever reason, the book has maintained decent quality throughout the decades I've read it, with only a few brief lulls here and there.

Like I said, I used to follow lots of titles thru innumerable highs and lows, but I suppose it comes down to the rising cost of comics and my own evolving tastes to get me to the point where that doesn't happen anymore.

I used to follow a title as a die-hard and then Swamp Thing broke me of that habit in a really bad way. After Alan Moore pretty much exploded my young brain, I stuck with the character through successively worse writers (and art teams) until I just couldn't take in anymore and walked away. I've come back to the title a few different times, but never with the commitment I had before.

I think Legion is the only thing I've followed consistently with the exception of the imposed break when "Tales" ended, and I had no Direct Market retailer. When I did find a DM retailer in our area, I was so far out of the story I didn't come back until the reboot.

Rouge, you're possibly the first poster I've encountered who experienced the Baxter series through Tales. It must have been incredibly frustrating to read those stories a year after they were published! And THEN it was cancelled after, what, around the reprinting of issue 30? Man, I can only imagine!

This is a little off-topic, but you're mentioning Swamp Thing and Des mentioning Millar makes me remember that the only time I picked up Swampy regularly (I discovered Moore's after the fact) was during Mark Millar's run with Philip Hester as artist from 140-171. Any time I think to mention it, I try to because that, in my opinion, was a terrific, underrated run! It started off with a four-parter co-written by Grant Morrison and dovetailed into an epic divided into four parts, each named after one of the four elements. Did anyone else read that run? I can hardly believe DC never collected that run, especially as Millar later became a superstar in the industry.

You've mentioned that to me in the past Lardy but I've never had the chance to read the Millar Swamp Thing stories. Like most I'd suspect, I discovered Swamp Thing well after Moore's run, like 15 years later. I'd actually already read Sandman, Hellraiser and several Swamp Thing-inspired things first.

My Dad did own a large portion of the Swamp Thing run though, so I had easy access to the Moore issues, picked them up--was blown away by them (I can only imagine how cool it was off the stands) and really delved in. The zombie comic-code story really *IS* worth going gaga over and Swamp Thing's trip to space is awesome to behold. But I digress. So I read Veitch's run thereafter and well...it was 'ok'. My Dad apparently thought so too because either he didn't finish the run or stopped sometime after Veitch, but at least several years before Morrison & Millar, my Dad cancelled Swamp Thing completely. He did this with quite a lot of Vertigo titles at this point like Sandman (he wasn’t impressed though I strongly disagree with him) and Shade the Changing Man (which I do agree with—that one got way too off the wall).

One day I'll read them. Mark Millar isn't the greatest writer in the world but he doesn't deserve the wrap he gets from so many posters here and on other websites. Some of his stories really really damn good comics. I think he experienced the same syndrome that causes people to hate Jack from Lost. He was popular and in the public eye too often at one point and there was a backlash. I don't think he's Walt Whitman, but I think he's in the 'better than most' category of modern comic book writers.

I liked Millar's Swamp Thing quite a bit, and thought it was a fine end to the series. BKV's follow-up series starring Tefe was a good offshoot, but I hated the Diggle/Dysart series after that.

Vietch started off alright, but went downhill fast. "Christ" controversy aside, I thought the time-travel story was too derivative of Moore's Space story.

Wheeler and Collins were rotten.

But yes, getting Moore's Swamp Thing off a spinner rack at the pharmacy was pretty wild.

I actually haven't read the entirety of Moore's Swamp Thing yet. Several years ago, Vertigo published a reprint series of it in black and white. I thought Bisset and Veich's art looked really stunning in B&W frankly. The series was cancelled after about 20 issues, so that's as far as I got. I also bought a random TPB that, I think, reprints the outer space story. It's here somewhere, still unread, because I wanted to make sure I read all the stories before it. One of those projects I have to get back to at some point....

As for Millar, there's one story in his run called "City of the Dead" from, I believe, the Water arc that I wish Millar had spun off into its own series. It was THAT good!

Swamp Thing has a reputation. I haven't read it, but it's always one of those books people talk about- mostly I'm assuming for Moore's work on it. There's always someone asking to get it out of the Vertigo-verse and back in DCU.

Any other runs reach that kind of status? You know- it's a must read, a high point for comics.

I'd say Sandman definitely does, if we're talking Vertigo. Several Vertigo lovers like myself try to include Preacher in that category and are often shot down by other Vertigo lovers . But definitely Sandman.

I could bore you with my picks from the Silver Age, Bronze Age and 1980's, but I won't go there (yet ).

I'm a little hurt by that, actually! I loved Shade from beginning to end! Both Shade and Sandman Mystery Theatre are two of my very favorite Vertigo titles historically. Those two and House of Secrets were incredibly good and, sadly, among the titles that were cancelled by Vertigo. Shade, though, had pretty much played out when it came to an end, but SMT and House of Secrets had plenty of life left in them.

Honestly, Peter Milligan did some great work for Vertigo. I count among them Shade, Enigma and his run on Animal Man after Morrison left.

Sandman may have been consistently excellent, but Shade was always my favourite. It was streaky though and I remember at the time noticing the quality dips seemed to co-incide with other Milligan projects coming out. When it was on, though, nothing could touch it. #50 is still one of my favourite books of all time.

Milligan just started on Hellblazer, BTW, and it looks promising so far.

Okay, Lardy, maybe you can clarify something for me. Back in the day, I read a solicitation for the first Morrison/Millar issue of Swamp Thing, that said Chester the lovable hippie had turned into a right-wing cop. Did this actually happen, and were Morrison and Millar responsible?

While we're talking about some underrated runs, I'd like to bring up a couple I thought were pretty cool. How about Batman? Two runs that stick out to me that actually were published simultaneously were Chuck Dixon & Graham Nolan's run on Detective and Doug Moench & Kelley Jones' run on Batman.

During the period between Knight's End and Cartaclysm, these titles were consistently satisfying in a way they've rarely been before or since. The stories were mostly standalone in that period except for Contagion, which I felt was done pretty well. Cataclysm and No Man's Land broke those runs, and I've never been as satisfied with those titles ever since. Those were some great comics!

Right ON, my bruthah! Shade effin' RAWKed! It's a shame it doesn't get the props it deserves. It should definitely have been collected in its entirety like some of the other books have. Even SMT has gotten that treatment...why not Shade? I swear Chris Bachalo's work on that comic is MILES above anything he's done since!


My memory's a little fuzzy on that, Stealth. I haven't read any of those issues in over a decade. And I wouldn't have recognized the character since this was my first real foray into the book.

I do remember part of the launch of the story with Morrison and Millar had him in some kind of nightmarish dream world, so it's possible there was a twisted version of the character you mention on that world.

Thanks, Lardy. Now I can rest easier in the hope that right-wing Chester was just a nightmarish illusion. I really loved Chester as written by Alan Moore (and I say that as somebody who gleefully laughed at Neil the hippie from The Young Ones, so it takes a lot to get me to love a hippie). When I read that solicitation, it struck me as if the writers were trying wind up Chester fans -- as history has shown, both writers, particularly Millar, have made a career of winding up readers, which I think is pretty sad (Cobie, does that help explain why I hate Millar?)

Another huge fan of the Vertigo Shade series. Lenny is one of my all time favorite comic book characters.

Nancy Collins Swamp Thing work is always overlooked. I really liked what she did with the book. I was spending a lot of time in New Orleans at the time. She captured the spirit of Louisiana in way that no other Swamp Thing writer has.

Welcom, Jerry! Yes, Lenny was a novelty at the time...a rare lesbian character (really, any homosexual character was rare at the time) in comics. But it wasn't her being a lesbian that made Lenny so great; it was her acerbic wit and her overall "out there"-ness that made her so great! It actually would've been pretty cool if Lenny had met Desire of the Endless at some point!

I was always interested in the storylines that involved Troy Grenzer, the serial killer whose body Shade occupied. Those were always gripping and surprising.

Damn, gotta dig out my old Shades sometime....

It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.

You're not going to believe this, and in fact, our friendship may be over . I've never read (1) Sandman Mystery Theatre nor (2) House of Secrets (Vertigo version). I know, I know, forgive me! This has been on the 'must read' list for so long! Especially SMT because I love the Golden Age Sandman and so think he's work better in his original noir setting.

I need a patented Lardy brief recap / dressing down / enthusiastic post to get me started! I'm still trying to catch up on Scalped, Walking Dead, Madman & the Atomics (thanks Kent!) and pick up new things, but perhaps its time I started a new buying project?

PS - I read Shade when I was about 18 years old. Perhaps my POV has changed? I can easily give the early issues a second chance as my Dad still has them...

PPS -

This period of the Batman books is nothing short of utterly fantastic. There was a time in my life (and I'm still not that far away from it) that I was totally into Batman in the same way I am with Legion, could resite Batamn trivia chapter & verse, and completely was immersed in the books. In fact, when I originally began posting as Cobalt Kid on the DCMBs, I was posting on the Batman boards too. Anyway, I came in picking comics off the stands about a year and a half before Knightfall (and I was still in my EARLY teens at this point) and my Dad let me go back and reread the Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle issues, the first 40 issues of Legends of the Dark Knight (GRADE A EXCELLENT) and the first few issues of Shadow of the Bat (also GRADE A EXCELLENT), and I was just blown away by the quality. I thought they were all fantastic, I thought the “Seduction of the Gun” one-shot was brilliant, “Vengeance of Bane” was awesome and then I completely was immersed in Knightfall when that finally came around. Like many, I totally bought into the trickery of Azreal as Batman and was outraged, and learned a lesson that I keep to this day—that people replacing Batman, Superman, etc. are only a passing trend and it will not last. Well, after Knightsend, I was still in my teens, still totally into Batman and in the run you mentioned, really got to see some damn great stories at the time. During this time, Chuck Dixon was writing Robin too which was also excellent.

I didn’t actually mind some of those events like Contagion, No Man’s Land, etc., as many were well done. However, they disrupted the flow somewhat by having such larger storylines. That brief era you mentioned really was kick-ass.

I’ve actually gone back and reread all of the Batman comics from the late 80’s to the mid/late 90’s. Still excellent.

Des, SMT is a must for any fan of Wesley Dodds and of the pulp/noir genre! There's a real viscerous quality, a brutality to the storytelling that fits the pulp genre very well. It also gives a very eye-opening look at the era, its social mores and its underbelly.

Plus, Wesley and Diann Belmont and the evolution of their relationship are as much fun to watch as whatever bad guy they happen to be tracking down! Wes is kind of a nerdy, endearing type who we see is often unprepared for the job. He gets shot, gadgets don't always work and he's often lucky to escape with his life. Dian is woman not content to fall into the mold that '30s society wants her to fall into--wife, mother, housekeeper--those are not for her. She's as integral to the title as Wes.

The arcs are typically broken down into 4 issues with Guy Davis as the main artist and others rotating in every 2nd or 3rd arc. The stories are superb pulp/noir akin to Brubaker's Criminal, but even better, I'd say, because of the ongoing development of Wes and Dian. And it really gets better as it goes along! Top-notch writing from Matt Wagner and Steve Seagal and genre-appropriate appearances from Hourman and the Crimson Avenger!

Make sure you put 'em on your to-read list ASAP!!!

Honestly, as good as those early issues are, I think the series gets LOTS better after the focus is off the American Scream and more squarely focussed on Shade, Kathy and Lenny. Agree or disagree, Jerry and rouge?

I think parts of the "Hotel: Shade" era were some of the best in the series, but "On the Road" is equally good. That's not to say there weren't some issues of the "American Scream" that knocked my socks off. It was a lot more spotty after the Hotel, and despite some good individual issues you could feel the momentum dissipating (Maybe I just missed KAthy too much).

I read a freiend's House of Secrets when it came out, and figured I'd wait for the TPB, if one ever came out. Only HOS I have is from one or more of the Vertigo compilation books (probably Winter's Edge #1, I'm guessing, where HOS was the framing story in which others were framed).

Shade's heyday was the Shade, Lenny and Kathy triumvirate era, especially with Bachalo art (Doran was good, too, epsecially the Hemmingway/Joyce 2-parter).

I loved the concept of SMT, but Davis coming and going was a turn-off, as fill-in artists were not of caliber, as I recall.

Aside from Dark Detective and the odd special/mini, I've found Batman pretty much unreadable since Miller/Mazzucchelli Year One.

It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).

My 'must' list for complete runs (of 20+ issues):
Sandman
Preacher
Fables
Bone
Strangers in Paradise
Starman (Robinson/Harris et al)
the original Elfquest (1977-1986)
Mage (both series)
Jon Sable (original series) 1-40
Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (20-63, I think)
Grant Morrison's Animal Man (1-26)
Zot 11-36 (now in one volume, conveniently enough)
American Flagg! 1-26
The Question (80s O'Neil series)

and noteworthy, but understandibly not everyone's cup of tea:
Cerebus
Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol
Omaha the Cat Dancer

underappreciated 80s indies:

Dalgoda (Jan Strnad, Ken Fujitake)
Masked Man (BC Boyer)
Crossfire (Mark Evanier/Dan Speigel)

Agree about Dalgoda. Would add:

Tales From The Closet -- Ivan Velez

Open Season -- Jim Bricker

Night Life -- Derek McCulloch/Mike Bannon

(I was indy-published once or twice, but I guess that belongs on the "Know Your..." thread)

Oh, and I enjoyed Omaha for awhile, before it collapsed under the weight of wayyyyy to many soap constructs/cliches.

I think a character like Chester was too good to be used as a sacrificial lamb just to make a satirical point.

And if Millar is even half the bastard I think he is behind that sh*t-eating grin, I'm sure he got a kick out of making Chester fans like myself squirm.

And Cobie, you still haven't answered my question.

A huge black hole in my comics reading is and was the great indie comics of the '80s: Mage, Grendel, Elfquest, Jon Sable, Grimjack, Love and Rockets, American Flagg...you name a significant indie from that era, and I haven't read a lick of it. What can I say? I was a teenager and buying every Marvel and nearly every DC off the stands with every bit of allowance and lawn-mowing money I could scrape together! And I didn't have any cool comic-reading friends who could point me in the right direction.

In fact, to this day, I'm not a huge indie freak, but I'm more prone than ever to try out anything that has a good buzz following it. Honestly, I never would have tried Walking Dead, Umbrella Academy or lots of other indie-flavored books if not for buzz from posters here and some in-depth coverage from sites like CBR and Newsarama.

I really do wish I'd been in on the ground floor of some of those '80s indies though. Unfortunately, I doubt my CBS would have sold many of them to me before I was 18.

It did lose something after Kathy, er, left the title. My memory's really fuzzy, though, since I haven't read them in about a decade--but didn't Kathy...return...toward the end of the series?

Like I said, Chris Bachalo's artwork was at its very best on Shade. I've yet to see him more inventive yet clear in his storytelling was on Shade.

After Bachalo left, we had Mark Buckingham on art and, I believe, Philip Bond towards the end. Neither was a slouch in the art department either. But Bachalo was the best.

This was another Vertigo series that didn't hit its stride immediately. Once it focussed a little less on the main concept--people being judged and sentenced for the secrets they were keeping--and more on the characters, it really took off. The main concept was always entertaining, but learning more about the cast and their own secrets was the real joy of that series.

Very quickly, the title settled into Davis taking every third arc off, if I remember correctly. Sometimes, the fill-in artists weren't up to his standards, but other times they were pretty terrific in their own right. No matter what, each arc kept its main artist from start to finish, so that was very nice. If Davis couldn't produce 12 issues a year, this was a good alternative.

Incidentally, unlike Shade or House of Secrets, Vertigo IS in the process of collecting that series in TBP in its entirety, two arcs per trade.

Does this mean you've read enough of what's been published since to have an opinion? Because there definitely have been some intermittent gems published since Miller. Have you read any of the Dixon/Graham or Moench/Jones issues I've referenced?

Like rouge said, Stealth, it was a "What If?"-type story, not a reboot or retcon or anything. His Swamp Thing was waaaay before Millar grew his Big Fat Ego! This swears Lardy!

BTW, I picked up all three issues of the Diggle Thunderbolts (and the new issue of Mighty Avengers) up from my CBS today, largely because you've put your Stealth Stamp of Approval so profoundly on it--hope it lives up to your hype!

Stealth, I honestly think Millar seems like a pretty likeable guy but there are some annoying things about him. One, he obviously promotes his material in a way that can only be described as "Stan Lee meets PT Barnum". Calling Wanted "The Watchman of Supervillains" and saying his comics "are the most important comics of the year" are way over the top and ridiculous. But in a way, perhaps that works? I mean, people do pick his comics up. He also obviously has a way to manipulate the internet extremely well--playing on people's fears, curiousities, sense of outrage and willingness to check out things simply for the sake of understanding 'why there's such a controversy about Ultimate #6 on Newsarama'. So yes, I find all of those qualities annoying . But I think he's an asshole or a jerk or anything. I'm of the opinion that the internet deserves 95% of the beating it gets from DC and Marvel and their creators.

Millar obviously loves comic books and especially loves superheroes. And many of his comics, like Ultimate Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, were an obvious attempt to reaffirm that superheroes don't need to apologize for their corniness or 'kids toy' status. He just goes about it in the exact opposite way Grant Morrison does.

Another Millar trait is that he obviously will use sensationalism in his stories when it fits his agenda. But, so did Peter David in the 90's and so did a host of other writers--Millar just does it to the Nth degree. I'm not saying its right--I was furiously about Ultimate Hank Pym and Ultimate Cap for so long that I basically posted "I hate Mark Millar" a bunch of times about five or so years ago. But Millar was calculating there too--he made it the ultimate versions of those characters. And the after effect? Millar is more high profile than ever, benefitting hugely, and the Ultimate Avengers are basically on a major decline down the tube since Millar's exit.

There's also a problem that isn't directly Millar or Bendis' fault. Because those two writers are seen by Marvel execs as being so important, there seems to be a top-down approach at Marvel to reuse and dig into those two creators subplots, ideas and niches. So, in the case of Civil War, Millar never actually makes Reed Richards or Tony Stark look like facists or assholes. It simply was not by him. I've gone and researched/checked it specifically to see (as this was when I started to really take a second look at Millar). Most of that stuff came from other writers: JMS being a big one, but several more, and even Bendis himself. JMS has said that was mainly directed by editorial. Therefore, one can make this assumption: Mark Millar proposes an idea and Marvel editorial misunderstands it and creates a top-down directive to JMS to alter Reed and Tony in Spider-Man and FF own comics. Yet, Millar gets the blame. I really think that's unfair. Obviously, this could mean little to you and is way off your point, but I wanted to post it anyway

Soooooo...I'm hoping one day Millar writes a story you like and you give him a second chance. I eventually came around. I'm not saying I like 100% of his work, but some of it I think is beyond good and actually quite excellent. But, as always, I always respect and am fascinated by your opinions

Millar's most annoying quality, BTW, is his willingness to talk about how much money he makes in interviews. Whether true or not, it permeates the assumption that Millar is really only out there working for the money, sensationalizing his work to get higher sales and creating over the top indie projects for movie deals. I certainly hope that is not the case.

His best quality seems to be that he seems like a cool guy to have a pint with and discuss how much Galactus could kick Thanos' ass.

I'm pretty much the same. Obviously I couldn't read in the early 80's, being 3 years old and stuff, but I'd like to catch up on some of these. I've read almost all of the DC and Marvel stories of that period. I believe my father has American Flagg! and some others, but for the most part I still need to find Mage, Love and Rockets and several others. I also have never read a Grendel story outside of the crossover with Batman and would love to immerse myself in that universe (like Hellboy and like I'm currently trying with Madman).

Speaking of Madman, I recently bought several of his earliest appearances via trades from a certain Legion Worlder who is renowned for his awesomeness and considered by me to be the poster whose opinion on the last three years of Legion most resemble my own. I can't wait to dig in! (Here's a hint--his moniker is that of the coolest new character in 5YL Legion, and I think he should be the next LMB leader).

Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.

Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.

You'll have to wait a coupla weeks for my response, though. I just got my In-Stock Trades order and will be occupied with those for a while. After that, I'm about two weeks or so behind in my comics reading. But I promise I'll letcha know what I think!

Like I said, if you get the inclination, track down his run on Swamp Thing (140-171). In my opinion its the best writing he's ever done by a mile! If you're leary of checking out a whole run, just try #152. If you don't like it, I'll refund ya what ya spent on it!

And Cobester...just to clarify, I'd easily put the entirety of Shade and SMT among my Top Ten favorite comic book runs of all time! ( sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)

I'll agree with Mage and Fables. Grendel should be noted, as we are in this rush to spotlight villains (Thunderbolts, Dark Avengeers, Secret Six.) As for the rest, I'm working on reading them- Starman and SMT are on the top of the list.

Millar did time at DC in the 90's- a brief stint on FLASH and JLA that were great stories, not blockbusters like his current output. He certainly is caught up in the hype machine- both his and Marvel's doing.

Ceej, I don't recall runs on Flash or JLA, though that seems familiar. Remember any story details or when/where they occurred in relation to other runs on those titles?

His JLA story was the Amazo/Atom tale before Morrison's run ended. He and Morrison both filled in for Mark Waid on FLASH when Waid took a break, issues 131-138, soon to be in tpb.

Sold. (But it might take me awhile since I'm already doing a bunch of other reading projects ). But I'll give Shade another try and I'm really looking forward to checking out SMT. And Grendel. AND Mage...

PS - those Morrison/Millar issues on Flash were actually really good. I highly reccomend them. Particularly the 3 parter where he's racing those aliens for Earth's survival--its a classic Silver Age concept done really well in a modern style.

I'll settle for you focussing on Scalped, Walking dead & Invincible for now....

(Don't worry, you know I'm doing my part by starting on Fables and Umbrella Academy--and probably House of Mystery and Agents of Atlas, soon! )

Yes, the very last issue had a "reset button" of sorts where Shade went back in time and stopped both Grenzer and the American Scream before they really got started. Obviously this changed things radically (which at least explained why there wasn't SOME reaction in the the rest of the DCU/Vertigoverse to the destruction of San Francisco, something that bothered me throughout the whole series). Shade gave Kathy her journals from his time line and after reading them she decided to join him and Lenny, reuniting the three of them.

It was actually 130-141, 12 issues broken into 4, 3-issue mini arcs. They later said in an interview that they basically alternated writing arcs but left both names on the cover. They never admitted who wrote what, but it's not hard to tell.

Anyone interested in listing their Top 10 Favorite Runs in comics? I've been thinking about it since I told Des what I thought about Shade and Sandman Mystery Theatre. I'll have to give it some more really deep thought, though. As I sort them mentally, I'm surprised somewhat at what runs will make my cut and especially which ones apparently won't.

Two things that really come into play for me in my thought process are: 1) Runs that are still ongoing or haven't had enough years to percolate probably won't make the cut--only one recently-ended one might, and 2) Runs that I experienced mostly as trades, reprints or back issues will not likely make my cut as the "in the moment" connection means a lot to me.

Don't get me wrong...these aren't the rules I want you to follow, should you decide to participate, but those are shaping up to my personal guidelines.

And it looks like Vertigo will be pretty well represented on mine......

That would be really difficult for me too, as the entire basis of my comic book reading career is rooted in Silver Age Marvel Comics, and then also in the entire histories of specific characters (Spidey, Thor, Iron Man, Legion, Batman, etc.).

To me of course, difficult = fun, so I'll have to give it some more thought. I can think of at least one Vertigo run that would probably make my cut (Preacher).

I think I've got my Top 7 figured out (if not their exact order), so it's a matter, now, of whittling the remaining three from over a dozen candidates!

Coming up with a top 10 is harder than I thought. In this day and age, where a run is 12-24 issues, does that really seem comparable to, say PAD's HULK run?

Walt Simonson's run on Thor is my first choice.

The Perez/Wolfman Teen Titans relauch would be up there, too.

Does the first couple years of the Elementals comic count as a 'run?'

The first few years of Exiles? Power Company? The first few years of Young Justice? The initial run of Thunderbolts, back when Jolt was a member?

In my mind a 'run' must be more than 12 issues. Maybe 18 minimum? Or is that too long.

Certainly, Frank Miller on Daredevil the first time was a 'Run'. The Second time, even though I consider it one of the best superhero stories of all time, was just a story.

I'd say what is considered a "run" is up to the individual. Everything you've mentioned, Set, satisfies my personal criteria. But if someone thinks that highly of a 6-issue story arc or whatever, I don't begrudge him putting that on his list.Personally, everything I'm considering for my personal list meets the basic criteria of having at least the same writer for 20 or more issues. The shortest run I'm considering is exactly 24 issues. Most are significantly longer. But different people think of it different ways, and that should be a fun, intriguing part of the conversation!

For example, I'm leaving out of my list any run that's currently ongoing because, in my mind, I haven't been able to let it percolate and see how it stands up because it's unfinished and, well, needs some seasoning, I guess. Of the seven I've finalized, one ended about a year ago, but the other six are a minimum of about a decade old.

It should be fun to see what everyone comes up with!

My Top Ten Runs:

1) Bob Harras & Steve Epting, The Avengers

2) Alan Grant & Barry Kitson & Mike McKone & Jim Fern, L.E.G.I.O.N. (until #28, Stealth's delivery.)

3) Walt Simonson, Thor

4) Fabian Nicieza & Mark Bagley, New Warriors

5) Peter David & Dale Keown & Gary Frank & Todd McFarlane & Jeff Purves & others, Hulk (until #426, the epilogue to Fall of the Pantheon)

6) Paul Levitz & Greg LaRocque & Steve Lightle, Legion of Super-Heroes v. 3 (until #45, the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story)

7) Alan Davis, Excalibur

8) Roger Stern & John Buscema, The Avengers

9) Stan Lee & Jack Kirby, Fantastic Four (from the introduction of the Inhumans, #43, through the introduction of Annihilus, Annual #6)

10) Peter David & Angel Medina & Steve Epting & others, Dreadstar (#41-64, cut short by cancellation)

That's a pretty good list, Stealth! My list and yours have a pair of runs in common.

Look for mine sometime tonight, if all goes well. I've got them figured out but want to post with commentary!

Cool! Thanks for the positive feedback, Lardy. I look forward to your list, especially to find out which runs we have in common. And if I can get myself to do it, I might add a supplementary post which elaborates on why I made those choices.

Your list reminds me, Stealth, of another concern I have with comics in general: as many trades as there are, there are still so, SO many great runs that have yet (and may never) been collected in a trade, hardcover, omnibus or Showcase editions. Most of the items on your list have almost zero chance of being collected for people to experience unless they want to go on a massive, potentially costly back issue trip. I've heard lots of good things about Harras and Epting's run, for example, but there is no convenient collections out there for me to enjoy it in a convenient format.

I hope DC, Marvel and various indies think about expanding their trade catalogues significantly. I'm sure there is plenty of money to be made!

Before I begin, I just want everyone to know that I haven't read everything ever published. This list is what I'm feeling right now and will likely evolve and change over time.

So here goes:

1) Paul Levitz's seminal run on Legion of Superheroes, particularly LSH Vol. 2 #286-Vol. 3 #50 (DC). What can I say? This is why I'm here on Legion World! So many story gems I'll always treasure, so much terrific character-building, some terrific art from Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle and Greg LaRocque.....it was the Golden Age of Legion stories and a run that will always be remembered in the comics lexicon. I'll always have these comics near me and available for reference or re-reading. Always.

2) Legion of Superheroes, Vol. 4 #1-61 (DC). Legion fans either love or hate these comics, and never the twain shall meet. I'm squarely on the "love" side and make no apologies. This was edgy, anything-can-happen storytelling the likes of which I haven't seen before or since. But what really always sold it for me was how Tom & Mary Bierbaum and Keith Giffen made me love Legionnaires like Rokk, Jo and Vi whom I'd never really felt anything about. And on top of that, they gave me new characters like Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Gand whom I still adore and sorely miss after all these years. (So many memories...I thought about cutting this run off at 39 or something, but hell, I'll even keep "Legion on the Run" in there. Even that had it's moments!) I don't think I've ever anticipated the next issue of any comic like I did during an all-too-brief foray "Five Years Later"......

3) Y: The Last Man (DC/Vertigo). The most recent of all the runs on my list. Brian K. Vaughn and Pia Guerra's masterpiece just resonates on so many levels....I mean, it was entertaining, first and foremost. But the characters were just so terrific and the plot points so well thought out. Honestly, Y wasn't what I'd expected at all when I saw the advanced solicitation. I figured, "this is gonna be filled with this 'last man's' sexual adventures." Truth is, Yorick really didn't have sex that much! The ideas, the uber-plot, all of it were just jaw-droppingly good--and exciting! And issue 59....that's gotta be one of the most devastatingly heartbreaking endings I've ever read, just one issue from the finale.

4) Sandman Mystery Theatre (DC/Vertigo). I've discussed this elsewhere on this thread, but suffice to say that Matt Wagner, Steve Seagal and Guy Davis put out a rich, nuanced, pulpy period crime book that made Wesley Dodds and Dian Belmont two characters I have the utmost fondness for. I think Ed Brubaker, Greg Rucka, Brian Bendis and others really owe this groundbreaking series a huge debt.

5) Shade, the Changing Man (DC/Vertigo). Along with Grell's Green Arrow series, this was one of the first two "adult" comics I ever got into. It was probably also the first not to have any real superhero trappings. Yeah, Shade kinda had a costume going on, but he never fought supervillains--he fought concepts like the American Scream and a serial killer inside his brain! Wild supernatural threats abounded, all from the depraved mind of Peter Milligan, a writer who I don't think gets enough credit in the shadows of Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman. Most of the series was drawn by Chris Bachalo in what makes everything he's drawn since seem like a pale shadow. But with all this going for it, Shade's secret weapon was always its intrepid trio of nuanced characters: Shade, Kathy and Lenny---all the madness wouldn't have been half as fun without them to bring it home.


6) James Robinson's Starman (DC). Who hasn't heard of this legendary run? The cool thing is, it is absolutely, positively deserving of all the hype! Featuring beautiful artwork from Tony Harris for much of its run, the adventures of Jack Knight in Opal City were unforgettable, especially because of the large and rich supporting cast that Robinson populated it with. We cared as much about what was going on with the O'Dares, the Shade, Solly, Ted, Mykall and all the rest as we did about Jack! Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

7) Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, #94-209 (Marvel). This was the run that probably made me a lifelong comics fan. A friend introduced me to this comic circa the 160's and plunged me headfirst into the world of back issues like never before! I became a Marvel Zombie overnight and was into all things X-Men for a long, looooong time. I collected the title(s) well beyond the issues cited, but this was the era it was the best---before the Mutant Massacre changed the lineup forever and ushered in the crossover as being the all-important element in the storytelling. The title picked up a bit for a while when Jim Lee came aboard, but once I eventually stopped buying X-Men, I've rarely ventured back for any significant amount of time. It's just never felt the same.

8) Preacher (DC/Vertigo). Yeah, I know...it was vulgar, depraved, twisted--alla that stuff. But Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon are one of the finest creative teams to ever have their pages stapled together. Period. And along with all of that series outrageous hallmarks, there were interesting characters to read about. Jesse, Tulip and Cassidy were an even more interesting trio than that of Shade. It was a fun, visceral read, and it had a beginning, middle and end that exceeded my expectations. <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Still can't believe all three made it outta there alive, though! Sometimes, it seems Garth switched Hitman's and Preacher's endings! </span></span>

9) Walt Simonson's Thor (Marvel). Sometimes I wish Marvel had just discontinued publishing Thor after Walt Simonson left--it was THAT good, and no one, I feel, has come close to reaching those heights since that run ended! Just epic, creative and, yes, MYTHIC storytelling. Walt is my Jack Kirby. I know Walt idolized Kirby and was inspired in his approach by Kirby, but I've never been attracted to Kirby's artwork like I am to Simonson's work on Thor! Just beautiful, mind-blowing stuff! I love it all: the beard, the armor, Thor-Frog, Beta Ray Bill and even Sal Buscema's art after Walt stopped doing the art chores. Brilliant, BRILLIANT comics!

10) Sleeper (DC/Wildstorm). One of the two very best writers working today (along with Geoff Johns), Ed Brubaker's masterpiece to me is the 24 issues split into 2 seasons that comprise the entirety of Sleeper. Artist Sean Philips really opened my eyes to a grittier, shadier, more realistic style of artwork that I'd never appreciated before. The saga of Holden, Miss Misery, Genocide, Tao, Lynch and all the rest captivated me beyond belief. This is the shortest run to make my list, but it's a body of work that is a towering achievement in comicdom. I think it really helped Brubaker find his voice in comics which directly lead to the success he's now enjoying at Marvel.

That's it! Whew! Tomorrow night, I'll add some thoughts and analysis on my picks and the ones that didn't make the cut. For now, though...I'm spent!

I'll have lots of comments to add, but had to stop what I was doing to note this one. What a great way to put it Lardy! That's perhaps the best insight I've ever heard to how I felt about Robinson's Starman. What a damn good series!

Since it's a roundtable how about a discussion on the revival of the GLC in the Legion's time?
I'd rather not have it keep derailing the Lo3W thread but it really does seem to be something the group wants to talk in about.

I'll save any comments though until the topic turns that direction (if it does).

I'm telling you, Lard Lad, that what this board needs is our own version of Dylan Horrocks' library from his Hicksville graphic novel. One of you old-timers could pick a central locale for it, designate a librarian (or the board could elect one) and then the rest of us poor deprived saps could pay some kind of minor fee to make pilgrimages there once a year;Or more, time permitting.

I'd love if we could have an ocean and a lighthouse, too;Just like in the original. But deep down I don't care if it's just off some highway in Indiana with nothing but abandoned strip malls and rusted autos. I'd still show up.

Favorite runs:
1) ZOT! - McCloud
2) Legion of Super-Heroes - Levitz/Giffen
3) X-Men - Claremont/Byrne
4) Legion of Super-Heroes(5YL) - Giffen et al
5) Grendel - Wagner et al
6) Daredevil - Miller et al (both runs)
7) Green Lantern - Johns/Pachecho & Reis
8) Thor - Simonson
9) Alien Legion - Potts/Zelenetz and Stroman
10) Doom Patrol - Morrison/Chase
(Cerebus and Meonch/Seinkewicz on Moon Knight almost made it...)

GLC in the 31st century? I like having the GLC around durig the Legion's time, but just as another element to the mix, the way the Heroes of Lallor, the Subs or Dev-Em were in the Levitz run.

This is the NON-LEGION comics forum. Lard has a similar thread in the LSH forum (or you could start one yourself).

What keeps me from nominating the entire Levitz run is Keith Giffen. It's well known at Legion World that I hate Keith Giffen. His artistic sensibilities, his sense of humor, his philosophy, everything about him is off-putting to me. The only Levitz/Giffen arcs I like are The Great Darkness Saga and The Legion of Super-Villains Saga; the former is lightning in a bottle, and the latter benefits immensely from Steve Lightle pencilling more than half the story over Giffen's breakdowns, and even then there's "Giffen-isms" that make me cringe, like the graphic intensity of the violence inflicted on Karate Kid, and the scene where one of the villains burns a servant girl to death. It's interesting that Lardy's cutoff point is the end of the Conspiracy arc. At one time, I would have felt the same, but IMO Conspiracy gets worse with each re-reading, and not just because Giffen drew the conclusion; however, I think if Greg LaRocque had drawn the entire arc, it might have risen above its flaws, the way that I believe the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story rose above its flaws thanks to LaRocque (and, credit where credit is due, some of the flashback-drawing guest artists, especially Grell, Swan, and Shaffenberger.)

Rather than going on another anti-Giffen rant, I'll offer a constructive comparison: TMK is to Legion as Harras/Epting is to Avengers -- both dark and edgy re-imaginings of venerable superhero teams, both controversial, both weak sellers, and both with passionate defenders who have earned these runs cult followings. So I can see where Lardy's coming from, even though I hate TMK and love Harras/Epting.

It's taken me a very long time to appreciate Starman. When it first came out, I was immediately put off by the slow pace, the stylized art, and the attitude of the lead character, who seemed to embody everything I hated about my own generation, so I stopped reading it almost immediately. Had I known that Jack would undergo such an evolution over the course of the series, I would have given it another chance. It truly is richly detailed, heart-felt, ground-breaking stuff. That said, I still have some problems with it, chiefly the way Robinson idealizes my grandparents' generation, but then, I was never close to any of my grandparents, so my viewpoint is a bit skewed.

Claremont, IMO, really shined on the self-contained stories, the annuals, specials, and one-shots, but as the writer of an ongoing series he left a lot to be desired in terms of month-in-month out consistency. I should add that I came to the X-Men just as Claremont had one foot out the door, so I missed out on the "in-the-moment" thrills that might have made me more forgiving of his flaws. Lardy, have you read the apogee of the post-Claremont X-Men, The X-Cutioner's Song? Because I think that was brilliant, and should have been the start of a new age of glory for the X-Men, instead of the lightning in a bottle that it proved to be in the long run.

I agree heartily with almost everything Lardy says about Simonson's Thor, and although I like Kirby better than him, I think Simonson achieved the near-impossible feat of actually improving on the Lee/Kirby Thor! That may sound like sacrilege, but that's what I believe! And there's no question that Simonson's run has proven an impossible act to follow, much as I believe the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four may be an impossible act to follow (the one who came closest to equalling them of FF was IMO none other than Simonson.)

I almost included this run, but decided to wait until Johns is no longer writing it. I think that Secret Origin was great, but I've been disappointed with Rage of the Red Lanterns so far, and that doesn't bode well for Blackest Night. Still, I do think this run has some of the best GL stories of all time.

I'm a little torn on this issue. Yes, this thread is very Gym'll's-specific, but certainly, the Legion is not completely off-limits, given how it is prominent in the Top Ten discussion. I'd say if we can discuss it and focus mostly on the Corps itself, it certainly has a place here. But if it's really about the impact on the Legion it belongs in that forum, whether in a revival of the Legion version of the Roundtable or in its own topical thread. I'd love to see the LSH version revived personally, so if Yellow Kid, Reboot or anyone else wants to resurrect it, you have my blessing!

By the way, guys, I battled a stomach bug today, so I'm running on fumes. I'll comment more in depth on my list, those that didn't make the cut and on your comments tomorrow, hopefully, as I recover.

here's mine

1) ROM Spaceknight #1-52 - My favorite series of all time and this run is the vast majority of the series. After this point its "Total War" and ROM main enemy are eliminated. The series meandered along for another 2 years but without the Evil Dire Wraiths around it just wasn't the same

2) Preacher (entire series) - This is an incredible series, extremely well plotted with excellent art.

3)Astro City: Family Album - I've really liked all the Astro City trades I've read, but this one really sticks out for me as to what it is like to be a hero and yet try to raise a family

4)LSH (Levitz run) - Ok I'm going to qualify this by adding that its up to giffens return with his puffy lip and 200 pockets and pouchs style. That art style just didn't look good with this version of the legion. This run contains many of my favorite story arcs and is what made it my favorite comic (next to ROM).

5) The Authority (Under New Management) - A superhero team that didn't give a rat's @$$ about what anyone thought as long as they got the job done...and KNEW they had the power to do it. Although many Authority stories have fallen flat for me, this one was firing on all cylinders, great story all around.

6) Marshal Law (Fear and Loathing) - Its crass, vulgar, ultra violent and yet a hilarious take on superheroes. Even all these years later I'm not sure if it was meant to be a spoof of "serious" comics (though there are characters who are obvious send-ups).

7) ok i only have 6 for the list.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....donation tray is to your right.

Serously, thanks, Des. As i wrote my capsules, bits of inspiration came to me, and that was one of my better bits. Jack Knight was the definitive Gen-X hero. I can't really think of any other offhand who represented that particular archetype better or even in the same ballpark. All the issues with himself (with the addition of the superhero thing) were just spot-on. Yeah, it was all pretty angsty, but, well, so are Gen-Xers. It was fun seeing Jack find himself and to compare it with my own search to do so. Starman was a lot more than just that, but it was a very resonant aspect of the whole.

(*ahem* Des...donation tray? )

I'll come back and fill my reasonings in a bit more later, hopefully:


10: Doug Monech's Spectre: I really have a soft spot for those early issues. It went to pot after the cast expanded, but I thought there was such great subtext and exploration of Corrigan/Spectre

9: From Hell: Still breathtaking in scope and vision.

8: John's JSA: It was a great, fun revival of a great team. This is what Superhero comics should be.

7: Batman and the Outsiders (1st series): I include just about everything up until bats left. I was surprised to find how much I liked these characters, not just Batman. Of course, I couldn't get the Baxter series where I lived, so this run ended too soon for me.

6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

5: Sandman - 'nuff said

4: Ostrander's Suicide Squad - I always had trouble waiting for the next issue, this series was like crack.

3: Levitz's LSH run from Annual# through the end of Tales. Words fail me.

2: Shade the Changing Man - already talked about in this thread.

1: Moore's Swamp Thing: Still THE seminal comic series in my mind. Just beautiful literature and completely transformative in my pre-teen and teenaged years.

Y'know, Sandman would probably be number 11 or 12 on my list--just on the outside looking in. Why didn't it make it? I guess it just came down to it just not feeling as personal to me than the ones that made it. Does that make any sense?

Let me try to explain. Sandman wasn't necessarily so much about Morpheus as it was about the people whose lives he touched or affected. Oh, there were definitely some beauts like Matthew, Hob Gadling (I'd buy a Gaiman-written series about him!), Nuala and countless others. But Morpheus himself wasn't all that interesting to me. I understand that that's how he was supposed to be as a being having no dreams of his own, and I know he wasn't completely without character development. But ultimately, it's the characters featured in a comic every month that make the biggest impression on me and endear me to the series, so that's what made Sandman fall a little short for me. Every comic I listed had main characters that connected with me in some way.

Again, Sandman is an outstanding body of work that I will always treasure. The stories are almost second to none. But I've learned that it's character that I connect to above all else, and those ten satisfied that need for me moreso.

Not familiar with Horrocks, but it sounds trippy, Clee! I vote for our resident librarian, Rockhopper Lad, to make it so!

Y'know, Drake, I've heard ZOT! mentioned a lot but have never had any idea what it was all about. Wanna save me a Wikipedia entry and gimme a capsule of ZOT!-ness?

I dunno', Lardy. Even in prosperous times, could we really afford to pay Rockhopper what he's worth ? And what if the penguins don't want to relocate ?



Hicksville is a fictional town in New Zealand that's a sort of mecca for those who make comics and those who love them. A local guy named Kupe runs the lighthouse, fishes and maintains a library that has every never-published dream sequential project done by Kurtzman, Kirby, and even Picasso/Lorca ! Everyone in town loves comics and collects them, and at parties you'll find burly fishermen arguing over whether Herriman is cooler than Argones, etc. (In the way that at most parties, everyone is arguing about sports.)

Needless to say, I own both the original comics and the collection, and I adore them. I'm not really in a position to make up a Top Ten list, but all of the source comic for the novel: Pickle, would have to be part of it.

I included up to 50 because I thought it really rescued "Conspiracy" with some "wow" factor! I mean Time Trapper v. Infinite Man? Gnarly! Yeah, the buildup was murky at best, but I liked that ending...a lot!

On the other hand, there was very little to like at all about 51-63. "Magic Wars" has to be my least favorite Legion story of all time! And everything leading up to it was basically unreadable.

That's a nice, even way to put it. I've found recently that a lot of 5YL detractors have softened on their verbiage a lot in recent years, and it's appreciated.

Harras's Avengers was dark? That's intriguing!

True, there has been a lot of idealizing of "the greatest generation" in all media. I think Robinson mixed some counterpoint in there, though, with the Ragdoll atory and elsewhere. I think he humanized Ted Knight pretty well.

Jack definitely evolved over the series and got more and more likeable.

I definitely read X-Cutioner's Song as I was still a regular X-patron at the time. It must not have made any kind of impression on me as I can recall no real details of it. Didn't it involve the Stryfe/Cable thing? It's possible I was too burned out on crossovers by that time that I didn't give it a fair chance. Care to share some thoughts about what made it so great for you?

I haven't read Lee/Kirby Thor, but I can't imagine I'd like it more than what Simonson did. I really miss Walt being an active creator...

(LOVED Simonson's FF, too, btw!)

ROM--kewlest book no one ever talks about? I've never read a page of it except, I think, the last issue which was a Secret Wars II crossover. Who wrote ROM? Was it one writer sticking with it thru that whole run? I remember hearing some whispers back in the day about it being good. Could you share a little more?

The entirety of AC made my master list. My favorite individual arc was the Steeljacket arc, but I've always loved the AC world, Busiek's writing on it (easily his best work) and Brent Anderson's terrific art. I think the erratic publishing probably hurt it making the Top Ten.

How can it be second-fave if it's number 4, pal?

Is this the Millar/Quitely run or the Morrison/Hitch run? Some other run? I haven't read any Authority, so I'm a little curious.

"Crass"? "Vulgar"? "Ultra-violent"? Sounds like fun!

Aw!

These are all somewhere in my Top 50. I'll have to give more thought to why they missed the Top Ten.

Shameless Plug alert! Now might be a good time to re-read Pages 8 through 10 of the All Avengers Thread, where I reviewed the Harras era in detail. End Shameless Plug

Even though the only issues collected are those which tie into Operation: Galactic Storm (two volumes, absolute must-haves), the rest of the issues are cheap and well worth acquiring -- the only ones to skip are the fill-ins: # 340, 352-354, and 370-371.

Ted was definitely a fully-rounded character. But the Ragdoll story felt to me like an isolated incident; even though I think Watchmen is overrated, I do feel that Moore did a far better job than Robinson at showing both the best and worst of that generation.

To me, it was a sizzling good action tale which also communicated the rage of my then-teenage generation far better than any lame grunge anthem ever did. It was beautifully structured and all the beats were perfectly timed, thanks to Nicieza being in the drivers' seat instead of Liefeld & Lee & Portacio, none of whom could plot their way out of a paper bag. And even though it was overflowing with characters, they all served a purpose and they all acted like themselves. Best of all, the odious Cable died...*cough*...well, temporarily, at least. I think of The X-Cutioner's Song as the Anti-Maximum Carnage -- the former stands the test of time, the latter was lame even back in the day.

I remember taking long looks at the covers to that series but never picked it up. What issues comprised Moench's run? As one of the more under-the-radar titles mentioned here, I'd appreciate it if you told us a little about it.

Never read it, though I've heard it's an essential Moore work. Was this originally published as a GN, series or miniseries?

Yes, very enjoyable. I'm not sure it'll ever be in my Top Ten or Top Twenty though. As consistently entertaining as it was, maybe it's just that there weren't enough "big" moments. For instance, I always thought Atom Smasher should've died at the end of Dark Reign. When I turned the page and found out Albert actually hadn't died, it felt like a cop-out. I have nothing against the character, but his dying there felt so "right" in the story's context. I dunno. I do love me some Johns JSA, though.

Never read BatO. Did you eventually, later, pick up the back issues to see what happened next?

I'd never choose one just for the art, but as I recall, there were some pretty great stories interspersed in there. As a kid, I loved B&B and DC Comics Presents and how they gave me the opportunity to meet lots and lots of characters, month in and month out. And of course, these titles embodied the art of the done-in-one story that was the norm back then.

Wonderful, wonderful crack! *shlkurp*

I actually forgot about this one when compiling my possibles. Wouldn't have made my Top Ten anyway, but that series is definitely held in high regard for me. Boomerbutt, the Wall, etc. are all much missed in that great mix.

This is definitely on my list of runs to buy in trade form. I've read the first 20 or so issues as B&W reprints, and they are beyond excellent. I look forward to reading the whole thing.

Random thoughts:

I’m having trouble coming up with my top 10. For instance, I love Avengers runs by Harris/Epting (essentially my ‘welcome to the modern age of comics, Cobie’), by Roger Stern (arguably the best written in its history) and Steve Englehart (which just has an ‘oomph’ that might make it my fave), but I certainly can’t include all three in my top ten. Not when there are so many other great runs that stand so firmly in my mind. I’m having even more trouble with Spider-Man—Ditko and Romita Sr.’s runs must be on my list. But it’ll be hard not having Stern/Romita Jr. on there, which probably won’t make the cut.

Starman – I do think an important thing Robinson did was a ‘duel’ revelatory commentary on the two generations he spent the most time on. Jack Knight begins as the typical member of Lardy/Stealth/my generation (even if I’m a little younger, it sure still felt like my generation), and as the series goes on, he evolves into a mature, heroic and good human being, albeit very unique, with different points of view and perspectives but still quite heroic in his own way. Ted Knight also begins slightly ‘flat’ in character, the typical Golden Age hero with an immensely iconic heroic status yet without as much real depth—and Robinson evolves him too throughout the series. But this isn’t in a bad way, and in fact, what Robinson does is quite brilliant, using what I like to call the ‘Tolstoy formula’. He takes the idea of the ‘Greatest Generation / Greatest Age of Heroes’ and strips it down to make it much more real and honest, to really show what it was all about, including the flaws, bad things, and real human elements. And through that, he is able to provide some very real and true glimpses into heroism, and even super-heroism. Lardy’s mentioning of Ragdoll is a good one (though I believe it happens in 1980?); particularly because its where Starman (Ted) asks for help from his peers rather than try to defeat Ragdoll himself. The iconic Golden Ager, whose status has developed quite unrealistically over the decades, would simply have rushed in there and beat the bad guy; here, Starman is much more human and realizes if he really wants to be a smart hero, he needs to realize he needs help. It was subtle and well done.

Avengers – Lardy, you MUST check out the Bob Harras/Steve Epting run. I’ve had so much fun talking to Stealth about it these last few years, as it also holds such a place in my heart. It’s the first ‘modern’ comic I read off the stands, rather than read old back-issues of the Silver Age Marvel, which is what I basically did the first several years I read comics. I wrote Bob Harass a letter when I was like 12-13.

Thor – Simonsin’s run really was something, wasn’t it? I just reread most of it this past summer. When I was 16, I read the entire Thor run from his first appearance to his then most recent (the Deodato run). But still, I think the Kirby Thor run is probably the best ever on the comic, and probably Kirby’s best work outside of his Fantastic Four run. Actually, its not really fair to compare both—they are both excellent and Simonsin was doing the impossible: creating a run of equal quality to Kirby without rehashing his old plots (which Marvel basically did all the years in between, and which they have done all the years since to both creator’s runs).

Legion – I would also put the Conspiracy storyline as the last great Levitz run. I also dislike Magic Wars quite a lot.

ROM – like Lardy, I need to check it out!

Zot! – like Lardy, I need to check it out—and also know nothing about it!

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Zot! – like Lardy, I need to check it out—and also know nothing about it!

It starts out, in the color run, as very much an old-school "quirky" superhero book in the tradition of C.C. Beck and the like. There are a lot of Euro and Manga influences as well, if you know where to look. But essentially he's a rip-snortin' kid superhero from an elegantly-drawn Utopia who battles Evil-- of various types.

Zot aka Zachary comes to our Earth through a dimensional portal, looking for a mysterious key that a bunch of bad guys are also after. He meets Jenny, a normal human girl, from our Earth. Sparks fly, hijinks ensue, Doug Adams-like jokes are made. There's a whole lot of other stuff in there, too: Ruminations on mortality and the nature of art and technology. Parental expectations of various kinds. The pull between the human urge to hope and the urge to give in to disillusionment.

When the book returned as a black-and-white, it morphed steadily into a different animal. There was still Zot, the superhero, his larger-than-life-villains, his pals and the girl who loved him. But the majority of the book took place on our Earth, amongst Jenny and her friends and family. The superhero and fantasy stuff was as much a "meta" (did people say "meta" then ?) theme as it was story. How visions of escapism affected the various characters became more important than the escapist plots themselves. Oh, and there's sex and romance, too. But nothing graphic or freaky.

Sometimes the art can look rushed, and some of the issues between Zot's Earth and Jenny's (our) Earth were never resolved. Doesn't matter. If you can own it, you oughta'.

Thanks. And remember to tip your servers.

Wussy! Everybody else is doin' it!

I struggled with issues like that (particularly with some Spider-man runs), but I figured if one creative team wasn't clearly superior to the other, then maybe neither run really belonged on my list.

Incidentally, I very nearly put Amazing Spider-man 1-40 on my list, despite wanting to limit my runs to ones I'd bought as they happened. Yeah, it mixed Ditko and Romita, but that's exactly the sequence I read them reprinted in Marvel Tales before it stopped reprinting Amazing. I'm not the most Silver Agey guy, but I'd put Amazing 1-40 and Legions run on Adventure as my number one and two very favorites.

Good observations on Ted. I loved Robinson's Ted Knight. He reminds me of my own grandfather who served in WWII and is still going in his '80s.

Okay, okay already...go ahead and ship me the whole run at your own expense, and I promise to read it ASAP. And I'm sure I'll eventually send it back!

Truly, what I remember most about that run as a non-reader was that Harras was trying to "X-Men-ize" the Avengers. Was this a fair description at all? Knowing he was the X-Men editor, it made sense at the time. Plus, I thought, "editor's-turned-writers? Two words: Howard Mackie!

Zot! sounded pretty good, Clee. You almost had me until....

Buzz-Kill!

Seriously, it sounds pretty neat-o. Reading between the lines, you liked the original/color run better? It sounds more interesting when the two Earths were both prominent from what you say.

Hey! Getcher OWN spot!

I don't want to say too much, because you should read it w/o my spoilers. But there are both straight and gay characters, and issues of sexuality are more in the foreground in the later issues than in the earlier ones.

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Seriously, it sounds pretty neat-o. Reading between the lines, you liked the original/color run better? It sounds more interesting when the two Earths were both prominent from what you say.

Well, I prefer McCloud's work IN color, but that's just me. In Understanding Comics, he talks at length about what color conveys best versus what B&W conveys best. So my biases aren't his;In no way would I call the second run an "also-ran." Which you like better depends on whether you like action to dominate (color) or introspection to dominate (b&w). They both have something to offer, and neither is "pure" action or "pure" talking heads.

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...Hey! Getcher OWN spot!

Boy, I just can't please anyone this week, can I ?

I'm quite sure I'm forgetting something, but I wanna give it a shot nonetheless...

1) Sandman
2) Legion 5YL - probably the run I read most often
3) Legion Levitz - most of it anyway
4) Fables - thus far. Hope they will keep up the good work.
5) John Byrnes Next Men - really loved that one, still hoping for a sequel 15 years later
6) Watchmen - maybe even better than 6th rank, but it's been years that I read it...
7) Busiek/Perez on Avengers, perfect Superhero entertainment
8) The classic Squadron Supreme ##1-12 - excellent!
9) Crossgen: Sojourn - an unfortunately unfinished fantasy masterwork
10) X-Men: Age of Apocalypse - have to confess that I'm still very fond of it, even though the ending was not as good as the beginning

There are lots of other runs I really like, like Alan Moores Wildcats, Straczynskis Supreme Power or Rising Stars but all of those started out great, but went nowhere in the end. Same goes for many X-Men or Teen Titans storylines, many of them good, most of them followed by less good ones.

Lesser known mini-series like Perez' "Sachs & Violence", Waids "Empire" or the obscure "Captain Confederacy" deserve mentioning, but didn't make the cut

Ooh, I'd add the X-Men 2099 run to my list. Some great stories, with good art and some characters that are, to my mind, many times more interesting than any other X-team I've seen.

Until the entire world of 2099 was flooded as part of some ill-conceived mega-crossover, and all of the subsidiary titles cancelled, it was the best X-book out there.

It was mostly written by Bill Mantlo and boasted a long run from original artist Sal Buscema. It was a comic (based on a toy) that originally captured the feel of 50's alien paranoia films. (imagine if Gort from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was the hero of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers") Rom was the greatest of the spaceknights (re:Green Lanterns, Lensmen) whose mission was to rid the galaxy of the evil shape-shifting Dire Wraiths. (he'd "banish" them to limbo with his neutralizer, but since they often wore human disguises, people thought Rom was just killing people. So really, it was all just a misunderstanding...)

"Rom" was the first series I "collected" every month rather than just perusing the comics rack and getting whatever seemed cool. It introduced me to the X-Men, Power Man and Iron Fist and contained the very first comic book death that actually meant anything to me. There was also an uber-cool but tragic spaceknight-with-a-deathwish named Terminator, but that's neither here nor there...

To add what was written before, the first ten issues were color, 11 - 36 were b/w. The color issues to me were there to lay the groundwork and show how ideal and innocent Zot's world was compared to ours. (though it certainly had its share of tragedy) Despite the simplicity of the art style, it conveyed a lot of emotion, especially when dealing with Jenny and her friends.

The first ten color issues comprised one big story with a lot of action and fun ideas, punctuated with poignant moments. The b/w issues got more serious and took place mostly on earth with Zot coming to our world. Those issues still had a great sense of fun, but taken as a whole seemed to be a meditation on the struggle to remain hopeful rather than fall to despair.

And yes, there's some romance and sex, (though I would say sexuality rather than "sex") but it was always more heart-felt than prurient. There's a "coming out" issue later in the series that always gets to me when said character desperately asks Zot to know whether or not they would be accepted on Zot's perfect world. The series also boasted one of the most effective death scenes *ever*, a pie-in-the-face contest, a guy named Dekko with the Chrysler building for a head and the scariest villain to ever wear a straw hat.

It's an unfair description, and I speak as someone who was reading both Avengers and X-Men at the same time. Harras had already shown he had the writing chops (remember the wonderful Hercules fill-in issue during Simonson's run? Written by Harras; the deeply moving Jarvis fill-in issue during Stern's run? Written by Harras; the kick-ass Iron Man Annual where Erik Josten became Goliath? Written by Harras) that Liefeld/Lee/Portacio lacked. When Fabian Nicieza and Scott Lobdell took over the writing, they got off to a great start with The X-Cutioner's Song, but then the X-books declined precipitously; it was around this same time that Peter David and Alan Davis left X-Factor and Excalibur.

Avengers, on the other hand, just got better and better, with the most ambitious, ground-breaking storylines since the Englehart era, and with female characters who were far stronger and far more interesting than any of the angsty X-women.

Actually, it was at the same time as Waid was coming alive as a writer; and before either Harras or Waid, there was Ann Nocenti on Daredevil; the only reason her run didn't make the Top Ten was because it's bookended by a very mixed bag of art, but the stretch that John Romita, Jr drew was brilliant (and I'm normally not a Jr fan, but the chemistry with Nocenti was incredible.)

I knew saying that that it would be an unfair description; I just wanted you to talk me through it a little. I can't remember if it was what I heard or what I assumed (or a combination). But casual glaces of Epting's art style at the time were evocative of the Lee/Silvestri styles used on the X-books. A name like "Deathcry" just reeks of Liefeld-style names. And certainly, using the Shi'ar in the Avengers was a novelty at the time. So hopefully, you can see how surface perceptions were altered. It didn't help that it all came on the heels of a string of terrible runs by Simonson (definitely a let-down), Byrne and Hama that ran me off Avengers and made me reluctant to ever come back! (not until Busiek/Perez--and our opinions differ on that one)

Did Harras write Avengers thru Onslaught?

And yeah, there are plenty of exceptions to great editors-turned-writers. Louise Simonson was a decent example, too. And Nocenti's Daredevil definitely ROCKED while she was paired with JRJR! Typhoid Mary was AWESOME! Unfortunately, sporadic one-offs, good or no, didn't really translate into my subconscious and help Harras have some "bank" with me.

Yeah, I remember the ads for the toys and realizing Rom was a toy tie-in. I always assumed the series was mostly set off-Earth. Was it actually mostly Earth-based?

Thanks for the additional info. It sounds almost like Michael Allred by the way of Terry Moore in my imagination. Definitely seems like something I should check out some day.

Thanks Drake...i was coming here to make a similar post

Lardy, yes it was mostly set on Earth...there was a story arc in the mid 20's where Rom returned to his home world, but he came back to earth afterwards. Once the Wraiths were eradicated on Earth he returned home again and the series ended. There was also a backup feature early in the run that featured stories of the Spaceknights before Rom came to Earth.

That style was running rampant through the whole industry at the time. Some artists adapted better than others. I think Epting managed to incorporate the dynamics while keeping his own style; same with Barry Kitson during his later issues of L.E.G.I.O.N.

I run hot and cold with Deathcry. She was definitely "Exhibit A", so to speak. But then I always remember with great amusement how Busiek would say how she was his least favorite Avengers because she was a bunch of X-Men cliches. As if Silverclaw wasn't a bunch of X-Men cliches? Pot, kettle, black! Even if it was unconscious on Busiek's part.

Well, sure, but I think it's a sad commentary on how narrow-minded fan perceptions had become since the days of the Kree-Skrull War, which was loaded with characters and concepts which had been introduced in the Fantastic Four. No one ever complained about that, but when the Shi'ar apppeared in the Avengers, they complained. Why should the X-creators be the only ones to play with those cool Dave Cockrum-designed toys?

Well, here's another analogy: Harras was to Avengers as Geoff Johns was to Green Lantern.

Not quite. Shortly after Epting left, he began co-plotting with Terry Kavanagh. By the time of The Crossing they were co-writers. After that, Harras left altogether (he'd become EiC), then Ben Raab wrote a few issues, then Mark Waid wrote # 400 and the Onslaught tie-ins (not Waid's finest hour.)

Oddly, Barry's style has never really seemed derivative of any other artist to me. If anything, I occasionally spot artists that seem derivative of Barry. In any case, as good as Barry's art was from the start, it's only gotten better over time. Same goes for Steve Epting--he and Brubaker are developing into one of the all-time best teams in comics! (Oddly, I could say the same abour Bru and Sean Philips and possibly, Bru and Michael Lark! Brubaker sure has some synergy with his artists!)

Yeah, and it's not as if Kurt created any new Avengers who've really stood the test, right? Triathlon?

I did enjoy Kurt Busiek's run a lot more than you did, though, Stealth...especially up until Perez left. The whole Kang thing that took place afterward was definitely a bloated clusterfuck, but I loved Kurt with Perez. Yeah, it was a total nostalgia-fest that didn't really advance the Avengers, but after all that Heroes reborn crap, I felt a nostalgia-fest was actually what was needed. And, GOD, I love me some George Perez!!!

I really don't disagree at all. But given Harras's background as X-editor, it seemed a little iffy. Wasn't there some direct X-title crossovers in there, as well?

No offense, intended, Stealth, but that's debatable. While I'm sure there may have been arguably a level of quality comparable to Johns, I'm not sure I've seen enough evidence to show that Harras's influence and legacy on Avengers can hold up to what Geoff's influence and legacy will likely be to GL once he leaves.

It seems that Harras's legacy has been stomped all over by subsequent creators...biggest piece of evidence being Heroes Reborn coming almost directly on the heels of Harras's run.

I'm not arguing that Harras's stuff was good or even great, but the comparison to Johns seems inappropriate given what fandom at large perceives to be significant or important in the larger picture. Not fair, but sadly true.

It's kinda like comparing Sandman and Shade. Shade is my favorite of the two Vertigo properties by a MILE; I'd argue that it was better 'til I turned blue in the face. But Shade languishes in relative obscurity in the shadow of Sandman's eternal (and certainly not undeserved) lovefest. What I or others feel will likely never change that.

Care to give me the broad strokes of the lineup Harras used? I remember Sersi being prominent. What were some other great stories, other than Galactic Storm? Did West Coast/Force Works continue to run concurrently through the whole Harras run?

So...has the Cobester decided he just can't narrow it down?

I forgot to mention in that another huge draw was the Nemesis back-up that ran for a while in the back (and occasionally intersected with the main book). Those were great and made Tom Tresser a favorite (I was already on-board for Suicide Squad, but when they brought Nemesis in, it sealed the deal). Sadly he's a character who's lost his shine.

One of the most memorable comic moments I have from my youth was the issue where Tom gets a device attached to his chest that allows the villain to control his heart rate. The issue ends with the villain setting the device to max and Tom clutching his chest as his heart is about to explode. As a kid growing up with a heart condition and always under threat of impending surgery, that issue really freaked me out.

Lardy, when I said that Harras was to the Avengers as Johns was to Green Lantern, all I meant was that he ratcheted up the quality of the book after a disastrous change in direction (Avengers = Simonson run/Green Lantern = Emerald Twilight) and a subsequent long stretch of bad stories. Recall that I compared Harras/Epting Avengers to TMK Legion, another run with a small but passionate following that's also been ripped into shreds and tossed into a corner where it sits largely ignored.

Now, where the lineup and the stories of the Harras era are concerned, the only character he brought in who wasn't already there was Crystal, who was feeling guilty due to her extramarital affair and its repercussions, and sought redemption through being an active superheroine. The rest of Harras' core lineup was a variety of characters who had come into the team during its lost years: Black Widow as chairwoman, Sersi, Black Knight, and Hercules. All four characters shined like they never had before. Later, Harras returned Hank Pym to being Giant-Man, in a new costume that was something of a nod to Dave Cockrum's Collosal Boy costume; this was the best Hank of all time. Vision was the one "iconic" Avenger who played a major role during the Harras years, and, once again, Harras corrected what previous creators had screwed up: returning him to his original colors so that he didn't look like a bottle of sour milk, and have him recover the humanity which had been stripped from him. Harras also created Magdalene, a Marvel analog of Big Barda, the second Swordsman, and Deathcry, all of them with great potential, certainly greater potential than Triathlon or Silverclaw. The backbone storyline of the Harras/Epting era was the ongoing battle against the alternate-universe villain Proctor and his Gatherers, which I thought was really cool because I love alternate universes and because the love triangle between Sersi, Black Knight, and Crystal was the best of its kind since the love triangle between Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Mantis. There were also battles against a band of renegade Kree (Cobie's favorite Harras arc) and a strange race of warmongers called the Brethren, as well as the best Arkon story of all time. And yes, there was an Avengers/X-Men crossover, Bloodties, and even I'm hard-pressed to defend it, except that the vivid characterization of Crystal (whose daughter is kidnapped by the Acolytes) manages to make it worthwhile.

I thought I'd add footnotes to some of my choices that I haven't already talked about in the thread.

That would be # 14-28 and Annuals # 1 and # 2. While I think the book had some excellent moments in its first year, it's really the second year and the beginning of the third year where the creme de la creme is, in my opinion. Grant & Kitson (and sometimes Grant alone) were much better plotters than Giffen, who had left after # 12, and they tightened the book's focus and steadied the tone. The origin of The Durlan and the battle against the Khunds and the origin of Stealth and the alternate-future story in Annual # 2 together form the peak of the book's entire run. After that, there were too many new characters and a loss of focus, although there were still some great moments all the way through # 51.

Ever since the mid-90s, the phrase "pop explosion" has been attached to a lot of books that have left something to be desired (worst offender IMO: Grant Morrison's JLA.) The first 25 issues of the original New Warriors book are the first and truest pop explosion in superhero comics, a big, brash, and colorful introduction of the music video sensibility into American superhero comics, starring a wild pack of young fresh-faced characters. I would put these 25 issues next to the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne X-Men and the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans for sheer exhuberance and inventiveness and the agony & ecstasy of being young and free and facing down a cold, cruel world. Bagley left the book after # 25, and Nicieza should have as well, because the rest of his run consisted of "smashing his own toys," most disappointingly in the things that happened to Namorita. Like the Titans, the Warriors have consistently failed to spark an effective revival; they were of their moment, but what a moment!

Like Simonson's Thor, this is a run that actually improved on the work of the orginal visionaries -- in Thor's case, Stan Lee & Jack Kirby; in Dreadstar's case, Jim Starlin. I've been very critical of Starlin in other posts of mine, but I like and admire a lot of the work he did during the 70s and 80s. The thing about Starlin is he's all about abstractions, which was fine for the relatively concise Captain Marvel and Warlock stories he did in the 70s, but left something lacking in the more ambitious scope of Dreadstar, and while I like Starlin's Dreadstar (I even like Starlin's final dozen or so issues, which he didn't draw, and which most people seem to dislike), I think Peter David fleshed out the sketchy characters and sped up the pace considerably, and that his stories were much better structured and much more action-packed than Starlin's, while still delivering the requisite larger-than-life cosmic thrills. This run is why I wish that Peter David would get a shot at Fantastic Four.

1) Mike Grell – GA Ollie's adventures took a real-world, Marvel style approach. Despite the costume, GA was more vigilante than super-hero. Ollie's fight against corporate greed and urban crime was often paralleled by his inner turmoil. It wasn't grim and gritty, just real and palpable. This book broke from the cohesive universe, reflected a style similar to Miller's Darevdevil or Brubaker's Cap.



2) Chris Claremont – X-Men I give Chris credit for building and shaping the Marvel Universe through this book. He raised the mutants to a level of popularity only recently topped by the Avengers push. We all have favourite characters, a legion of them sprung from his pen. True, some were created by Cockrum, some by Byrne, but Chris fleshed them out, made us want to read more and more about them.



3) Warren Ellis/Raney/Hitch – Stormwatch/Authority Take a stagnant title, characters no one seemed interested in reading, and give them new life. Then take a successful book and refurnish it, bringing budget movies to comic books. It was a fun ride, lots of energy, big explosions, and even a hint of morality. Mark Millar owes his career to this title; it started the blockbuster comic book.



4) Doug Moench/Kelly Jones – Batman Moench gave us a creature of the night Batman. It was psychological and superheroic. Jones wrapped it all in a creepy look that fit the urban legend that was Batman. Doug tried mixing prose and comics much the same way Morrison tried. It was eerie and experimental, and it was Batman.



5) Bill Wilingham – Fables I don't know if this counts as a run, seeing as how Willingham created it and continues to create it. I can't imagine someone else writing it now. Sure, the occasional fill in, but it's all his. It's a great read, funny sometimes, grim and moody others. It can tell a fairy tale story, or shock you with the modernization of a beloved character (see Cinderella.) There's a reason this book is so well received in and out of comic fandom.



6) Jerry Ordway – The Power of Shazam Here was another example of DC trying to give their line a little diversity. Ordway gave us Cap, Mary, and Jr mixing the aw-shucks of the 50's with the cynicism of the 90's. It found a way to pay tribute to the golden age of comics, and still give you a story that didn't feel dated or stunted.



7) James Robinson – Starman Yeah everyone seems to acknowledge this book, and there's a reason for that as well. Jack is the everyman hero of his day. If comic books started in the 90's, this would be the Spiderman.



8) Matt Wagner – Grendel Evil wins. This book is that simple. This is the true Anti-Batman. Rich, traveled the world honing his skills, criminals are a cowardly & superstitious lot – it's all there. Grendel is about a man making his own way in life, flaunting convention (much like the creator) and doing what he deems necessary. Imagine giving in to your inner demons, letting that devil on your shoulder win – not just once, but all the time.


9) Matt Wagner/Steven Seagle - Sandman Mystery Theatre This book combined super heroes and pulp noir, revitalizing an old character, without the standard modernizing update. We got super-heroics sometimes, pulp crime fiction others. Here's an example of grounding comic books in reality, using the heyday of comics as the setting.


10) Kyle Baker - Plastic Man This was a fun book. Comics have lost some of the fun and adventure that first brought in readers, with each new Age, things seem to have become more dramatic (melodramatic even) and less funny. Baker brought that in spades. This wasn't the tongue in cheek humour of the JLI, just sheer goofy and entertaining.

Fantastic Four: Lee and Kirby – A groundbreaking series. No pretense. Genuine. Comics are supposed to be fun. This was fun and imaginative. Kirby became the master and never looked back.

Superman/Action Comics: Curt Swan – Month after month, year after year. Flawless and beautiful. The man could meet a deadline. He defined the look of THE comic book icon. An accomplishment that will never be matched.

Sandman: Niel Gaiman: Ultimately comic books are about storytelling, right? Gaiman had a story to tell. Grand and literate. It could have been told in any number of mediums. He chose comic books and raised the bar.

X-Men: Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne – Stylish and commercial. These guys brought a freshness and excitement that pushed medium forward, set the standard for a new generation and made comics cool. .

Swamp Thing: Wein and Wrightson – A short and timeless run. The concept was simple. The execution was flawless. I can’t describe the feeling that comes over my body when I hold an issue of the original Swamp Thing in my hands. It’s almost spiritual.

Teen Titans: Wolfman and Perez: They mixed a little bit of old with a little bit of new and came up with a compelling formula. For the first few years, this was the comic book that you just had to run out and get each month.

Legion of Super-Heroes: Giffen and the Bierbaums – Layered, complex and interesting. Messy, at times. You had to work to make sense of it. The effort was worth it. When you finally got it all unwrapped the book was all heart. You found your childhood friends and you couldn’t have been more proud of them, or of yourself for sticking with them. A totally unique experience.

Green Lantern: O’Neil and Adams – A brief run that made a difference. Sure it got attention for being socially relevant, whatever that means. In the end, it stands out for humanizing Hal, Ollie, Dinah, and Roy in a way that no comic book characters ever had been before. Adams work is gorgeous and lush.

Hawkworld: Truman, Ostrander, and Nolan – A personal favorite that probably won’t make many fans or critics lists. A civics lesson mixed in with some kick ass science fiction in each issue. Dirty laundry, scandal, mature content, flawed characters, social injustice, and a search for meaning. It never all came together but the books always felt important to me. These guys were trying to say something and I applaud the effort.

Kamandi: Kirby – This is the book that introduced me to the King. It’s not looked on as his best work. Frequently dismissed as clichéd or silly. Not so, for me. I found it imaginative and accessible. The images are forever etched into my mind.

Count me as someone who enjoyed Hawkworld quite a bit, as well! I've always been drawn to Hawkman, but this was the only time the material really delivered on the promise I was looking for. Yeah, the whole scenario mucked up Hawkman continuity in the DCU for quite a while, but I really felt this was a terrific read for it's entire run. Graham Nolan was a terrific choice to continue the visual approach Tim Truman used on the original miniseries, and Truman and Ostrander (later just Ostrander) delivered a consistently compelling read. Sadly, the book really lost something when Hawkworld ended and was relaunched as Hawkman even though Ostrander continued as writer for a while and Jan Duursema came aboard as an excellent artistic successor. I think the problem was with the relaunch DC made Ostrander dumb down the scope of the series in order to attract more readers. It didn't work.

This was another feather in Ostrander's late '80s/'90s DCU cap as he really put together a string of classic DC books: the latter part of Firestorm, Suicide Squad, Hawkworld, The Spectre and Martian Manhunter. The three in the middle, especially, were among the best runs I've read in my decades as a fan of comics. I actually wish DC would collect these in Omnibus format similarly to what they're doing with Starman and some other great runs.

I've never been a fan of the hawk-people, but I loved the Tim Truman/Enrique Alcatena Hawkworld mini-series that predated and set up the monthly. Reportedly, Truman wanted the ongoing to be set during the Golden Age; IMO it would have been better that way (not that I think it was a bad book, I just never got into it the way I got into some of the other books that Truman and Ostrander have worked on.) Other than the Hawkworld mini, I liked Kendra as a member of the JSA ensemble, and...that's about it. (Oh, and I loved the Rann-Thanagar War, but that's because it had Adam Strange, Vril Dox, Captain Comet, Kyle Rayner, and the Omega Men to compensate for the boring hawk-people -- Shiera's (sp?) death bothered a lot of people, but I shrugged it off.)

I like the current version of Hawkman alright, but fans of Hawkworld have not been served very well since the series based on Truman's vision ended.

IMO, the character of Shayera Thal/Hawkwoman who began with Hawkworld is far and away the superior version of the character. Kendra Saunders has always seemed much more two-dimensional by comparison. Why she was created and elevated while Shayera was put in the background (and eventually killed) is beyond me.

And obviously, the persona of Katar Hol which supposedly exists within the current Hawkman has all but disappeared with only a stray reference. This is clearly more of a Silver Age Hawkman but presented as the Golden Age version, minus an overt Thanagarian connection and plus a whole past-lives thing.

Frankly, I'm surprised DC hasn't just gone and ret-conned Hawkworld out with one of the Crises like they have a few other inconvenient continuity elements.

Like I said earlier, though, the current Hawkman works really well in the milieu of the JSA. And while the armored version of the costume with the stiff wings was cool for a while, I ultimately prefer the classic, stripped down version with the big ol' hairy chest and how it emphasizes kind of a gladiator-like nature to the character.

Sure miss Shayera Thal, though. She'd never give a creep like Roy Harper the time of day!

Shayera was a bit too...I don't know, "Claremont-ish" for me -- the grim, hardened warrior woman.

Kendra at least showed moments of vulnerability. At her best (in the pages of JSA, rather than Hawkman, which is rather telling) she reminded me of the way I was at her age: anger vying with sadness for domination. I even had the same hairstyle at the time (although it looks MUCH better on her than it did on me -- I grew it out and have kept it long and will keep it long til the day I die.)

Re: Kendra and Roy Harper, I simply tell myself that the Kendra in JLA is an impostor.

She wasn't really all that stereotypical, Stealth. But she was a cop after all! This seems to feed into how women aren't allowed to be super-tough in comics, as fandom tends to deem them too unfeminine or whatever. They take Shayera off the canvass and replace her with someone who's attempted suicide, who got pregnant as a teenager and always seemed to have to be pushing away Hawkman. And now she's with the womanizing Roy Harper. Ugh.

Shayera was awesome, strong and was a totally equal partner to Katar. She could've been a JLAer or JSAer herself if everyone at DC hadn't been out to de-emphasize Hawkworld in favor of these newer takes. Her being killed off just underlines my point. I'm surprised it took DC so long, really.

I have no problem with super-tough female characters. I did, after all, based my Legion World ID on a super-tough female character...who was also a cop, of sorts. But Stealth had a wit that Shayera IMO never had, and she also had moments of kindness, tenderness, and vulnerability. I never got any of that from Shayera. And I don't like male characters to be grim, hardened warriors, either -- as I said earlier in this thread, one of the reasons I love The X-Cutioner's Song so much is because Cable dies at the end (yes, Reboot, I know that Marvel ordered the ending reversed so he could be brought back to life; no need to correct me.)

And I don't entirely disagree that the angst and suffering has been laid on a bit too thick with Kendra, but that's the fault of being at the mercy of multiple writers with conflicting approaches. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much David Goyer had to do with how Kendra shined in JSA, or for that matter, the overall quality of JSA.

Thanks, Stealth, for bringing up the mini-series with the Alcatena art. It was beautifully done.

I've enjoyed the Hawks in almost all versions and can't wait for them to get a new ongoing. I love the fact that Shayera used the code name Hawkwoman as opposed to Hawkgirl.

To me, Shiera, Shayera and Kendra are totally unique characters. Each with her own strengths. Shiera - the devoted wife who could handle things on here own when it counted. Shayera - the empowered warrior with a passion that wouldn't stop. Kendra - more of her own woman than an extension or counterpoint to Hawkman. I was delighted that Shayera stayed in continuity for a while after Kendra was introduced.

From a storytelling perspective, Shayera was great foil for Katar's explorations of democracy and humanism.

Shayera had limited exposure in the Hawkman series featuring Katar Hol. Halfway through the 34 issue run, she had been sent away. I can see why she wouldn't leave a memorable impression.

But I became a die hard Shayera fan in one issue. I think it's #19, shortly after Zero Hour. It was a spotlight story for her- no wings, just a Detroit cop. She's tough, she's self-doubting... it was a story Messner-Loebs could be proud of.

It's hard to say. Kendra seemed like she was more front-and-center in JSA when Goyer was co-writing. However, if she was, I'm pretty sure the elements I listed above were pretty big parts of those Goyer-influenced issues.

Was JSA better with Goyer? That's an interesting thought. I don't have a list of his issues onhand, but if I'm remembering correctly, it may have peaked (by my standards) while he was still co-writing. As I stated earlier in this thread, JSA peaked for me around Black Reign and the JSA/JSA arc. IIRC, Goyer was not around for either of those stories. While it's been pretty good since then, none of the successive stories have done it as much for me as those. Possibly, it would indicate Geoff's juices weren't flowing as well, for very long at least, after Goyer left. (assuming my view of JSA's quality matches other people's perceptions )

Goyer left JSA just before the end of Princes of Darkness, which I (and I know I'm not the only one) consider a rather insubstantial arc, especially consdering the way it had been building since the very beginning on the series. Could Goyer have had something better in mind than what saw print? For that matter, what might James Robinson have wrought in partnership with Goyer if only Robinson hadn't burned out right after JSA started?

My perception of JSA, from multiple reads, is that it had most of its best moments before Princes of Darkness. I loved Black Reign the first time I read it, but re-reads have revealed, IMO, a lack of substance, something that I think recurs in a lot of Geoff Johns' solo work -- it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That said, I do think JSA was never less than readable until Identity/Infinite Crises reared their ugly heads.

Jerry, Ceej--it's good to see there are other fans of the Hawkworld version of Shayera!

Also, while doing these last few posts, I did some Wikipedia searching, and apparently Hawkman and Hawkgirl died during Final Crisis? Did I miss something?!?!? Also, apparently Carter had some doubt cast on him somewhere (Demiurge during Rann-Thanagar War) that Katar is the real Hawkman and Carter is not?!?!? Color me confused!

In the final issue of Final Crisis, the Hawks and the Super Young Team all faded out of existence when the Checkmate alternate Earth evac plan collapsed.

During the Holy War mini that ran this past summer, it was suggested that the Carter we've been reading is really Katar. It was poorly done, came out of now where, and is likely the basis for the recent scrubbing of Hawks from the DCU.

The best part Lardy, when I was at SDCC, someone asked Didio about that while he was hosting a panel with Johns. Geoff blurted out "Yeah, what's up with that?"

I should make it clear that the only Rann-Thanagar War story I love is the original mini-series written by Dave Gibbons and drawn by Ivan Reis. Everything related that followed is atrocious IMO.

Oh, and as for Kendra being a bit much even when Goyer was writing her, I guess we'll just have to politely disagree on that point.

I should clarify a bit that I'm not necessarily a Kendra hater, really. I just prefer Shayera in that role and feel Kendra was really unnecessary with the other character still around, especially as she was a favorite of mine. I guess they created Kendra because she was a lot different in her nature than Hawkman would be as they eventually reintroduced him. If it was Shayera, the two really would've been more alike than different.

I haven't read last week's JSA yet and don't pick up JLA at all--has their passing been addressed at all in this month's titles?

(Funny, I read FC #7 and didn't get that the Hawks were gone--chalk it up to the unclear mess FC was, I guess. )

I think most folks, myself included, enjoyed Shay as much if not more than Katar. When they brought Carter back, they could have paired him with Shay. That would have been a great mix of both couples.

Thank you for clarifying that. And I apologize if my last post seemed a bit curt. I didn't mean it that way. It's so hard to get across a clear "tone of voice" on a message board.

The Hawks are alive and kicking in the current JLA/JSA titles.

And count me among those who didn't see them passing in FC #7

Didio said the DCU catches up to FC in March. So sometime this month, they will be missing.

It wasn't the most obvious, seeing as how Supes wished for a happy ending. But apparently they are gone, and Mr Terrific is on another Earth.

Shay was the best part of Hawkworld in many ways. Having Kendra in JSA # 1 raised a big red flag for Hawkworld lovers and signalled a change was in the wind. I think Goyer had a clear idea from the beginning what was in store for Hawkman and planted Kendra in there as the seed. They saved the actual storyline for a couple of years later to put some separation between Katar and the new version.

I'm still amazed (but not sad) that it hasn't been ret-conned out like Byrne's Man of Steel and countless other elements from early post-Crisis.

I actually didn't take it that way, especially as you used the words "politely disagree " in your response. I can respect that 100%! But I did still felt the need to clarify my views on Kendra, especially as I came across feeling she was a total train wreck. And that wasn't exactly how I feel about her.

The same Wikipedia stuff I read quoted Johns as saying the Hawks will still be alive at the beginning of Blackest Night. What that mean, I have no clue. But killing the Hawks is not what I want at all. I'd rather they continue with Carter and Kendra than kill them off & make them Black Lanterns or do another effin' ret-con on them!!!

It just occured to me -- Peter David would write a great Kendra, especially given how his take on Siryn has more than a little in common with Kendra. Damn that Marvel-exclusive contract. And damn DiDio for making PAD feel unwelcome at DC.

I really liked the Hawkman series a few years ago. I loved that the Golden Age version of a fairly major character was considered the version in the DCU. Unfortunately, it really tanked after Johns left it.

I also liked how the Hawks and Dr. Fate were handled at the same time in JSA. There was always the tension of "In another life, we were a family". The relationship between Hector and Kendra, who were cousins biologically, but really mother and son, really should have been explored more fully. Hector Hall is one of my favorite characters and I always felt his death toward the end of the JSA run was one of the most pointless deaths in all of comics. They essentially killed him off to make way for a "new" version of Dr. Fate and when was the last time we saw him? And this was right after he and Lyta were reunited and seemed to be happy, for once.

Oh well. It's not the first time Hector has been killed. Actually, I think it's the third.

Yeah, he could. But I wouldn't blame PAD for staying away (even after his exclusive ends) after what was done to his Supergirl and Fallen Angel series.

I like Hector as Fate as well, Rocky, even though I was never a reader of Infinity Inc. It seemed like a great fit. Maybe this is all a part of a grand plan to reboot Hawkman again somehow by tying up all his loose ends. Or maybe not, since Hector as Silver Scarab is part of Justice Society Infinity.

Although I said a moment ago that I thought JSA was good until Identity Crisis, I feel that the true jump-the-shark moment was what happened to Hector and Lyta. There's just NO WAY that Johns couldn't have had long-term plans for them which got scuttled for God knows what lame reason.

I think Hector's shining moment was in JSA #50. That was the issue where he defeats Mordru and shows him that someday the Legion is going to kick his @$$ too. On the other hand, that was Obsidian's absolute worst moment. But then the JSA's kids have had some of the worst treatment of any characters in comicdom.

For me, JSA died back when Goyer left the FIRST time (back in JSA #25 - actually, was that Sadowski's last issue too, come to think of it?). The issues afterward degenerated rapidly, and when Goyer apparently returned for Stealing Thunder ( link to a post I made at the time ), it got worse rather than better.

For some bizarre reason, I hung on to #53 in the hope it would get better again, but it never did. That cured me of doing that forever - when a title gets bad these days, I drop it quickly.

Oh, and Kyle Baker's apparently done a Hawkman reboot strip to appear somewhere or other. There's a few preview pages here: http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=536689#Post536689

I love JSA, although "Thy Kingdom Come" storyline nearly did it in (I dropped it for that) and I'm kinda wanting to pass judgment on the current arc to see how the Marvels are treated (huge fan, but HATE the current direction and want DC to correct themselves asap, but not sure if that is happening here or not and my enjoyment of the story depends a lot on where Mary is at the end).

Anyways, there is some confusion as to when this issue takes place. In issue #24 (the most recent one) Billy mentions that Mary disappeared after the war with Darkseid and still has Black Adam's powers in her. Then she shows up in the horribly designed outfit from Final Crisis (not the black one she wore in Countdown or on the cover of #25). So some confusion there.

but the dialogue indicated this actually takes place after Final Crisis.

As for the Hawks, I only read them in JSA and one arc of the Hawkman book. They aren't my favorites but I do like seeing them around (and I don't know why Kendra is in JLA, she never struck me as someone who really made that "next step" but maybe I missed something).

I don't want them to mess with the Hawks anymore because the poor Hawks have been messed up too much already.

As for Hector, yeah, I miss him. The death of Hector was really pointless as his relationship with the others added to the character of Dr. Fate IMO. Still, the way I choose to read his "death" is simply that he and Lyta are taken to another dimension by their son and get to spend the rest of their lives there. Happy and safe and with the son I don't think they ever knew.

DC Editorial's a mess right now. In FC the Hawks definitely bite it, Mr. Terrific vanishes and Mary Marvel is cured of DeSaad's possession (Super Young Team, btw, survive).

In JSA, which specifically mentions it's after the war with Darkseid, the Hawks and Terrific are around and Mary's still in her "Black Mary" persona. sigh.

For the record, Silver Age Katar the space-cop was always my favourite Hawkman (Loved those World's Finest back-ups), but I didn't mind Carter's resurrection in JSA. Until he became Conan the Hawkbarian, that is. Then I was more than ready for Katar to come back.

Anyone else read the "Legend of Hawkman" mini, that was a great depiction of Katar and Shiera that I'd love to see come back.

Yeah, it sounds like DC continuity is more messed up than ever, Rouge.

But back to JSA, they have gotten a lot of things very, very right since the revival began. A few examples:

1) Bringing back Rick Tyler as Hourman and finding a way to bring back Rex as well! This is an example of a JSA child being treated well after Keith Giffen tried to kill him off as a stunt in that Eclipso series (along with several others). And bringing back Rex righted one of the worst wrongs of Zero Hour.

2) Mr. Terrific. I'm so glad someone was paying attention to what Ostrander did with this imaginative take on a new Terrific. As great as it was, Johns and Goyer elevated an obscure character to great heights and produced not just one of the great black characters, but one of the best new characters PERIOD to emerge in the last decade or so! (That stuff in FC better not f*** that up!)

3) The continued survival and central roles of Alan Scott, Ted Grant and Jay Garrick. These three (along with Carter Hall) continue to be strong flag-bearers of the JSA and for DC history.

4) The sense of a huge extended family. It distinguishes the JSA from any other title out there. The JSA look out for each other and the generations of legacy heroes. That's one thing Geoff's early issues of the current series underlined very well. And it's a big reason why I won't be dropping the title when Geoff leaves.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there're many more if I sit down and think about it.

Your thoughts?

I've loved JSA almost all the way through but it hasn't always been perfect. I do think the book was stronger on a monthly basis when Goyer was co-writing but the quality has remained relatively strong. I think since the current relaunch though, its floundered quite a bit. Particularly this last storyarc.

I thought what Geoff Johns did with Hawkman was nothing short of extraordinary, and it makes me scratch my head to wonder why DC would try to screw that up again.

For whatever reason, I like most versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl (or Hawkwoman). I also like the complexity of their history.

latecomer to the party...

I loved the Tim Truman mini, but would rather have seen that retconned in rather than reintro the Hawks as if they were just coming to Earth. If the ongoing series absolutely had to that, I'd have rather seen either extended flashbacks, or just plain set in the DCU of a few years beforehand.

As it was, both story and art of the ongoing left me cold; I did not care when they killed of Shayera, and the Zero Hour 'merged' Hawkman struck me as particularly lame. Only in recent years has Johns made it work (sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).

If there had to be a third incarnation, I like the idea of Kendra better than a revamped Shayera. If I were re-introing Hawkman in the immediate post-Crisis era, I'd find a way to make continuity between 2 or three eras of Hawks without having to retread old tires, so to speak.

I never liked Hector Hall very much, especially not as Dr. Fate. A second-rate character, in my opinion, who should stay dead.

I've laways loved JSA, but not always what's been done with it. I found the previous JSA series rather lukewarm (I've only read the 1st 2 trades plus #51, the Legion cameo), and it seemed like Just Another SH Book rather than THE Classic Team of All Time.

Kent, that's a fairly small sampling of JSA reading to make that judgement, I think, but I can respect that. I'm guessing that maybe part of your problem with JSA is it's NOT the classic lineup. Most original JSAers are dead. Do you think that played into it at all for you?

Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)

I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.

Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say. Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!

I expect another retcon soon though. The JSA are simply getting too far removed from the current generation to maintain the "Sons and Daughters" aspect of the current heroes, even with the Krakul explanation.

She probably also got a boost from being retconned in as a JLoA founder, too.

I think that's a combination of "no-one liked the original retcon" (that turned BC into her own daughter), JLA wasn't selling very much at the time of the original retcon, and it was done in Secret Origins, IIRC, which wasn't a particularly high-profile series itself. I suspect a lot of people were fooled into thinking that the BC in the JLA had always been a separate character to the JSA BC; and that those who knew otherwise didn't notice ANY of the retcons.

...for about five minutes [Although she appeared beside her daughter in past-set series like JLA:Y1 and JLA Incarnations. Wasn't it James Robinson who tried to retcon her name to "Diana", to distinguish her from the younger "Dinah", or was that just the same sort of carelessness that led to him writing a whole Times Past issue involving "Allen Scott"?]

Incidentally, didn't someone involved say that, if the retcon had been cemented-in in time, she would have been sent into Limbo with most of the JSA shortly after the Crisis?

You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.

I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.

I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.

But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.

After years of discussing it and thinking about it (usually on LW), I think right now I'd be fully in support of something to further distance the Golden Age/JSA (still firmly planted in WWII) from modern times.

I thought the Justice Experience was a great step in that direction. I also thought the idea that certain individuals stayed within their own eras too worked well:
Challengers of the Unknown - 1957-1968 (then travel forward in time)
Blackhawks - 1940 - all the way up through the 1960's
Congo Bill - 1943-1950's, becomes Congorilla in 1959, essentially immortal thereafter.

Meanwhile, certain Golden Agers, like Plastic Man, are naturally immortal.

Now that would be a cool weekly series. Explaining the history of the DCU while applying a 'moving timeline' to the modern era with only the vaguest connections but still keeping a relevant 'passing of the torch'. Yet with a good story not mired in useless minutiae of continuity

The JSAers are the parents of the Infinity generation. Most of them were men. And they had their aging slowed. That I get.

But the wives of the JSAers, the mothers of the Infinitors, must have been in their 40's & 50's to give birth to children younger than me. Ugh!

Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.


1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.

2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.

3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.

4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.


You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.

I'm pretty sure the fandom hounds would be unleashed if a middle generation were ret-conned in. The Justice Experience was a good idea, but they weren't related to anyone. I'd have to say I'd be against this retcon because DC is already drowning in a 50-ft deep retcon pool with like only one arm floatie keeping it above water!

Yeah, I often get those wtf moments when I realize the JSAers kids are pretty much all younger than ME!!! As I see it there are two non-"lost generation" solutions:

1) Portray the JSA's kids as being in their early '40s or so.

or

2) Show a lost "casebook" story (a softer ret-con) which shows how at some point a magic spell or something was put on the classic JSAers that caused both them AND any children they would have to age at a slower rate than the rest of humanity. They aren't immortal or anything, but perhaps their expected lifespan would be maybe 50 years longer than everyone else.

Neither is a perfect solution, but I think they're less intrusive solutions than ret-conning in another generation of characters.

I thought about this long and hard over the Summer, when I was planning my excel spreadsheet multi-tab document “How to Fix the DC Universe?”, which was when I was at my angriest towards the company. Yes, I really did this Then I started to have fun with it and was wondering how to kind of explain away some of this stuff without making it too messy. Honestly, I don’t think that can be done. But what I was considering:

Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects

Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)

1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.

Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues

Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War

Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.

1968 – since this is essentially the end of the Silver Age, a story would be inserted in which the JSA, their children, and specific characters are sent forward in time. Coming in place would be the Justice Experience, the 1970’s Starman, and any other characters that might be applicable specifically to the 1970’s / Bronze Age.

This leaves open the 80’s & 90’s as potential “open eras” for retconned heroes.

We then flash-forward to the ‘moving timeline’, which cannot ever be given specific dates to be tied down to. What we know is:

25 years ago – Superboy

Also during this time the Justice Society appear forward through time. A great story could then explain how they resume their identities, sometime in their 50’s, with their children still toddlers. (thus, in the current time, it explains their ages). I see King Faraday as this immortal super-spy, active since the 1950’s, so maybe he, Plastic Man and a few others still alive from the 1950’s, help get them situated with identities and stuff on the ground they are not superheroes. So they are in retirement essentially again.

12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world

10 years ago – Flash II, Green Lantern II – basically all the characters of the Silver Age now firmly planted within the moving timeline

9 years ago to today – the basic history of the DCU within a 9 year period (or even less, no need to make it a full 9 years). Of course, as the decades expand, cramming all those adventures into this small period presents its own problems, but the readership appears unwilling to move on.

To explain all of this, and why the JSA is moved forward in time presents a few other opportunities: to explain the history of Superboy (Superman when he was a boy), to even show the Challengers of the Unknown in their era (like CJ mentions), and other things. To give a basic timeline, and even showcase some DCUers who have been active since the 1940’s, like Plastic Man.

You could also then have Booster Gold’s comic tie-in, having him visit various time periods and see things in a disjointed way (which is complicated and could be fun).

You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.

You could have a few Legionnaires appearing to create a connection there. Perhaps some moving backwards through time? (That’s always a cool thing). Like Dawnstar, Shady and Wildfire, or whoever.

So you’d have lots of characters scattered throughout time, some meeting at different points, working against a common enemy (Vandal Savage is good but he’s been done to death), so there is a real storyline here. But in the background of this epic storyline the JSA / generational problem is fixed, Superboy is firmly established and characters truly specific to a particularly era are allocated to that era. End it all with a ‘history of the DCU’ index, make it like 80’s pages, charge a crazy $6.99 price since you know people will buy it and essentially make it the new DC bible.

They key would be it needs to be done as a great story first and foremost, and the focus should not be specifically on continuity. Just like Lost uses complex plot-devices, this could easily be done.

This could work, while making for an interesting weekly or maxi-series. One element that should probably need to happen is to establish that as the era of Superman, etc. starts, the JSA are either inactive, retired or missing for some time. There's always been a gap of time between the JSA's era and the JLA's as a way to make the current generation of heroes not seem less special. So if DC were to go with this approach, I'd suggest having the JSA reappear in their time jump a couple of years into the current heroic era. Maybe their kids were more like pre-teens or in their early teens when they reappeared instead of toddlers?

Less the lineup and more the feel and characterization. I expect JSA to be better than the average team-book if I'm going to spend money on it.

My point exactly - it worked better just making it "all along" without the rediculous explanation.

Agreed... technically, by the time that could be enacted, they should be great-grandparents.

JSA is the WW2 'Greatest Geenration."
Their kids should generally be Baby Boomers, mostly born in the 50s, but a few on either side.
The grandkids should be born from the early 1970s all the way though the 1990s, but mostly around the mid-1980s.
A fourth generation should be coming of age nowadays, with a few already well into their 20s or so.

Some 'slipage' is acceptable, of course... espeically if you let a few of the old guard remain magically younger.

I'd hate to see a generation just automatically inserted; I cannot imagine DC handling that well at all. I'd rather see it tried out in an Esleworlds/parallele Earth situation where all DC characters are fit into their proper eras (a Silver Age JLA and Doom Patrol, too), and work out the kinks before imposing it on the 'main' DCU... sort of like how Robinson's "Golden Age" was handled.

Some good ideas, but I hate to see characters subbing for others in past eras just to 'fit.' The WW2 Wonder Woman should be *a* Diana (even if not the curent Diana), not her mother. There should be a WW2 Superman, even if no one but the JSA is allowed to remember him. There should be a Silver Age JLA. The classic Hal/Ollie stories belong in the early 70s, not in the mid-late 90s.

I'd rather see a vaguely "Groundhog Day" scenario where just a few of the heroes realize they and even their supporting casts are not aging, even though decades have been going by. They may craft theories and guesses, but never really know for sure (too much is over-explained in comics already).

My dream scenario for resetting the DC Universe goes something like this:

DC announces that is will cancel all titles (except Action and Detective) in six months. The writers all have a chance to finish up ongoing storylines. Then, one year after the cancellations, the DC Universe will relaunch with all new, starting from scratch, versions of their main franchises - with some new titles and characters added.

In the interim year, DC will publish several ongoing series and mini-series that take place on an alternate Earth – maybe we could call it Earth DC. Earth DC is a real time Earth. It starts with the Justice Society forming in the early 1940’s with the cast as originally presented in All Star Comics. These characters age as normal. This JSA appears in all new adventures, set in the 40’s, in a new All Star Comics. Superman and Batman appear, for the interim year, in Action and Detective adventures set during the World War II era. The Dick Grayson version of Robin is a key character in terms of demarcation of the passing of time. I would introduce him as a ten year old in 1944. Whenever you wonder how old somebody is, your refer back to that reference as an anchor point.

For the interim year, DC will publish a team super-hero series set in each decade up through the present. These series would have some basis in how stories of that era were originally presented, but may have to substitute legacy characters for the Golden Age heroes who aged.

The titles and line-ups:

1950’s – Teen Titans – Starting in 1950 with Robin, Supergirl (blue skirt Kara); Sandy, and Star Spangled Kid. These kids are kind of mentored by the still active JSA. A very young Dinah Lance sometimes accompanies her mother on mentoring duties and serves as a young sidekick and foil to the older Teen Titans.

Super-Heroes are outlawed in the mid 1950’s and most go into seclusion or retirement. Both the JSA and Teen Titans disband. Superman marries Lois and Batman marries Selina during the late 50’s seclusion era.

1960’s – Justice League of America – Nightwing (Dick) and Superwoman (Kara) fill the roles of Batman and Superman in this resurgence of super-heroes. Wonder Woman is Diana from the original JSA. As an Amazon, she does not age. Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (Hal), Flash (Barry), and Aquaman are founders. The team stays together for about 15 years with the new members being added at approximately the rate and times they were in the original series. Green Arrow, Atom, Red Tornado, Elongated Man, Zatana, etc. The Thanagarian Hawks join. The JLA Black Canary is the daughter of the JSA version. The one addition would be Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) who marries Nightwing.

1970’s – Justice League International – As the old League folds, Zatanna forms a new team that includes John Stewart, Jade, Huntress (Helena Wayne), Black Lightning, Red Star and some of the Global Guardian characters.

1980’s – Titans – They start out as teens featuring Flamebird (Jim Grayson, son of Nightwing and Batgirl), Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), Aqualad, Kid Flash (Wally), and Speedy. They are eventually joined by Power Girl (daughter of Superwoman), Lilith, Mal and Karen, Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven.

1990’s – Justice, Inc – A new team that carries over with a few of the Titan members as adults. Power Girl is still around. Aqualad is now Tempest, Speedy is Arsenal. The anchor of the team is Superman II, the son of Clark and Lois. Vixen joins. Green Lantern is now Kyle. They mentor the Young Justice team Tim, Cassie, Bart, and Conner. (Note: Superman II is one of the sons of Lois and Clark – his older brother disappeared mysteriously in the 1960’s).


2000’s – Justice Society International – A legacy team set in modern times. Some of the Young Justice kids grew up. There is new Batman from Argentina. Nightshade (the daughter of Flamebird and Starefire) is a member; One of the powerhouse characters is Indigo, the son of Power Girl and Tempest. A time displaced Nura Nal and Thom Kallor are part of the team. They reveal that the lost son of Superman is in the 31st century serving with the Legion.

The other ongoing series for the interim year would be a title called “Passages”. It would print stories about things like the death of Batman and Superman or the break up of the Justice Society and the Justice League. There would be one shots and some three issues mini series featuring solo adventures of the Earth DC characters set in the appropriate decade.

After the relaunch of the new DC Universe, the top two selling of the Earth DC series would be continued. Earth DC would still be featured in occasional specials for nostalgia buffs as the new DC Universe takes hold.

Have to say I'm not thrilled with this idea, or a general reboot (sorry, but I think the legion showed that reboots are bad).

Mainly I think that it becomes too ridiculous. It reminds me of when they tried to re-into Captain Marvel in the 70's. I appreciate them wanting to keep the WWII stories intact, but having a portion of the town stuck is Suspendium and all that was just, bad, in my opinion. I just don't like that story.

You could explain why the heroes don't age (or age slowly as has already been done) but doing that with their wives and then including their supporting cast is just too much.

I don't know what the solution is, I like the history and generational aspect of the DCU and I do agree that some stories really only work in certain time periods. But for those you just, don't think about it?

I will say this, I think that there are not enough generations between the original JSA'ers and the younguns (esp the surviving Infinators) but there are too many generations after the Silver Agers (or there are about to be, early reports make it look like Damian will be Robin, so that's four Robins (if you don't count Stephanie) for Batman so far).

Anyways, I really don't think there is a good solution for this problem, I think the most important aspect however is for the characters and stories to continue to move forward. I really think the things that kill a book most is when the writers spend too much time explaining what is going on or what has changed rather than moving the stories forward. (I feel that this is really what killed the Legion, not the removal of Superboy, but the constant retconning to try and explain how things had changed).

Steph, I would argue that the removal of Superboy LEAD to the constant ret-conning, but I think our discussion of the JSA has lead to a larger issue in comics: how should aging and the passage of time be addressed in serialized comics?

True, I don't think it was absence of Superboy that killed the Legion, but rather the lengths they went to explain/change things due to that absence. But at a point we split hairs.

As for aging in comics, that's a toughie.

Really I think the sliding timeline works best. For stories that really only work in a certain time...well honestly I can't think of that many that rule applies to. The few I can think of either a) aren't refernced that much so the time isn't a big throw off or b) you just suspend disbelief and live with it.

Honestly, as much as writers like to think comicbook reflect the real world, they really don't that often.

Now I think the big problem we get with timelines in the DCU (and since I read mostly DC that's who I'll use) is JSA and sidekicks growing up or characters growing up

with JSA the big problem is not that they are tied to WWII (and it would be hard to seperate them from that age, especially since they are seen as "Golden Agers" and the Golden Age is linked with WWII).

The problem with sidekicks growing up is that it ages the heroes. The biggest problem is that DC keeps adding more sidekicks (Damian as the "new" Robin would be the biggest example if that rumors becomes true). Heck, Damian's existance is a problem because he is pretty old, and since Batman was, well Batman, when he was supposed to be born you just aged Bruce (unlike Ollie who had his kid before his GA career, thus not affecting the "sliding timeline").

Then you have characters like Dick and Wally, both have become characters in their own right, but both have been aged considerably and when you begin to think about Bruce has now become a lot older.

However, I think a lot can be done with suspension of disbelief, you just don't think about how old someone has to be, the trick is to not "lock" ages in (so avoid big age benchmarks) but also be cognizant of the limits of your fictional realm when doing things (like introducing Damian).

I'm for aging in comics, but I think you need to be aware of your limits. When Dick grew up as Nightwing (because the Bat books didn't want him) he basically forced the "aging" of all his peers. When Wally became the Flash and thus a full adult (even though he didn't act like it at first) this really forced another "aging" of that generation.

The trick now for DC would be to keep the middle generation (Dick, Wally) as the early to mid twenties yet still viable characters (get much older and bam, you have a problem).

Then they intro Jason, he dies, but then comes Tim and following him (in the 90s) you get the "next wave" of teen heroes, none sidekicks but all his peers. Thus if DC were smart they would keep Tim perpetually a teen, because once they age him they age an entire generation and then they have two post teenager generations and thus Dick and all them have to be aged yet again.

I think you need to keep things in bands, the Silver Agers are always peers of Batman/Superman in age (and experience). The young adults are the former Teen Titans (Dick, Wally, etc) and the teens are Tim and his gen. Try to add another band and your "sliding timeline" doesn't work.

So then you treat each character according to the band they are in. No character in the "teenager band" can graduate high school (or at least attend college, because now you're either in the next age band or just too darn close)

If anyone in the young adult band has kids (which chould be avoided except in biggest circumstances because writers can't write babies forever and kids age characters) those kids need to be kept under a certain age.

Now main characters can age, but any aging effects to these characters need to be thought out a lot before implemented, because if you age one Silver Ager you age the others, remember, Superman and Batman are there at the begining, and even though Hal and Ollie should be older than those two, they appeared heroicly at the same time and it is too hard to remind fans that even though Hal and Ollie are older, that doesn't make Bruce and Clark older. Using bands mean you all kind of age or deage together, regardless of actual starting ages.

As for the JSA, the big problem for me is their kids (which weren't the JSA pretty old when the kids were intro'ed anyways?). That is the problem because you have characters that I really think DC thought would be perpetual background players and never thought that introducing "kids" to spice up the franchise would create such a headache since people would care about Alan Scott and Jay and all in 2009.

You need some flexibility otherwise characters become stale, but at the same time if you are going to have a shared universe you need to be cognizant of the problems you face with aging one character. besides, you can have growth without aging characters too much.

Suspension of disbelief is a big part of comics, so if you say that all of Batman's career has taken place in 10 years I'll buy it unless you show me that Dick has aged 12 years. So work with the leeway fans will give you.

Again, JSA is a problem, but I think that's because DC thought that no one would care about these old guys long enough for it to be a problem.

Oh, and one last thing, don't tie characters who can't age into specific events. I love Captain Marvel, but you CAN NOT tie him in to the "dawning of the Heroic Age" because Billy HAS TO remain as a minor (it's part of the central concept of the character).

And I realized that I haven't really answered the question, but I think there should be growth in characters and sometimes aging accomplishes this (Dick could not be the character he is today if he was still Robin, the teen wonder) but you have to be smart about aging because you want to avoid making the character too old or having to reboot or reset the character.

By this time, you probably know my solution.

Set a fixed timeline. Let everyone age in real time.

Restart the whole thing every ~20 years. Seriously, this shouldn't be a problem. You should expect total audience turnover within that time anyway.

Over very long time spans, I don't see any use in retaining the same continuity at all. And so there's no need for flex-time in comics anymore. In its absence, we can have tighter continuity.

My solution: have two lines of comics. In one of them, the issue of time and aging is neither addressed nor acknowledged. The characters are evergreen. In the other, characters age in real time, they hand down their legacies to junior characters (sometimes) and when they die they stay dead. Obviously, these two would diverge fairly quickly, but that's okay.

So, no one would buy into the JSA as a bunch of grizzled Vietnam vets then?

<ducks>

I agree largely with TK. Restart continuity every twenty to twenty-five years for the major characters. Relegate the old continuity to an "alternate earth" or something, where stories can still be told in it. That way you can still have some titles set in the old continuity after the transition.

Continuity is something writers use to tell ongoing stories. Readers seem to have more and more issues with it as it gets bulkier and bulkier.

Don't reset it, just forget it. If a writer wants to use something from previous history to build a story, go write ahead. If something previously written would contradict a good story, ignore it. Just let writers tell their stories and not worry about contradictions or incongruences.

I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?

I think we're all in full agreement, actually. Rather than doing a reboot in the same titles, as Crisis on Infinite Earths was meant to be, it would probably be more viable to launch it like Marvel's Ultimate line, keeping the original universe running at least for a while. But, as I've explained elsewhere, do it like Marvel originally intended the Ultimate universe: as a different fictional universe, not a different part of the same multiverse. The latter would eventually lead to crossovers, and to metafictionality bleeding over into the new universe.
As pointed out by Cobalt Kid here: http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001778 a worthwhile "Ultimate" universe has to have different possibilities from the main universe. Non-metafictionality combined with a fixed timeline (note that I don't say real-time - who says all series have to be set in the present?) would give DC that. And to go with it, an all-new set of writers.
If DC ever does anything even close to this, I will certainly abandon what remains of my interest in the old universe.
Even as a younger reader, I have to say: Yes. I can only ever look at comic stories on their own merit - and believe me, most of them aren't that good on their own. I'm drawn to long-running series - long-running coherent series. No comic I've ever read was part of such a series as far as I know. I love comics more for what I wish they could be than for what they are.
I want continuity to be something more than "pick and choose", and I want it to be worthy of that status.

Part of the fun of being a fan used to be figuring out inconsistencies. For example, the idea that Supergirl joined the Legion before Superboy originated in a single-panel discrepancy.

I think that a fictional universe should be by and large consistent, but allowing some things to remain inconsistent can be a boon. It allows fans to become actively engaged in coming up with their own explanations. (Anybody on this board ever win a Marvel No-Prize?) Do we really need to know, for example, why some Klingons have head ridges and others don't?

HWW:

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...Do we really need to know, for example, why some Klingons have head ridges and others don't?...

Make sh#t up !!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Actually, I don't need to know if it's just filler, but if it adds anything to the story at hand, then go for it.

While it's a hard pill for fans to swallow at times, when the next creative team comes on board, they have a right to ignore the last team's ridge-theory, or even substitute their own that's completely at odds with that of the last team. If they do this in service of a story that would have suffered without it, great.

Artists seem to get much more leeway on this front than do writers, which isn't really fair when you think about it.

Klingon ridges aside: I recently caught part of the Enterprise episode which retconned an explanation for the human-looking Klingons. Fair enough, but the worst part of the episode was the ending, wherein one of the characters says that even their descendents will have the same disease that erased the ridges. These descendents, of course, are the ones we saw in the original ST series.

Thanks, ST people, for pointing that out, 'cause, y'no, we're two stoopid to figger it out.

I don't give artists that kind of leeway, either. There should be rules that say "This species looks like this." Without that, all I can ever assume I'm seeing is an interpretation of the fictional world's reality, and can never fully engage with it. I want to believe I'm seeing its reality directly.

This is the same reason I hate flex-time. It prevents full engagement because older stories, to be accepted in continuity, can't be as they appear in the actual comics (that is, they took place in a more recent year than shown).

And beyond that, it's the reason I hate retcons in general. It's why I want a universe that takes a more literal and less conceptual approach, if you get what I mean.

Honestly, I'd say the whole problem with the passage of time is a bigger one for DC than it is for Marvel. Yeah, you occasionally have to scratch your head trying to figure out how old Peter Parker is and how long he's been Spidey, but it seems Marvel doesn't have as much generational diversity as DC. DC is absolutely littered with proteges, kid sidekicks and what-not while Marvel is not so much. I mean, you have your occasional New Warriors, New Mutants, Runaways, Power Pack and Young Avengers, but very few of them have close ties with Marvel's icons in a way that might age those icons by association. It's not totally absent, of course, but not as prominent.

I suppose part of this is because the Marvel Universe as we know it is about 20 years younger than the DCU in terms of continuous publication. And oddly enough, it seems that Marvel's younger heroes have a harder time catching on than DC's. Hardly any teen characters introduced at Marvel in the decades since Spidey debuted have really stayed prominent very long. Yes, you have the New Mutants characters still around in various X-comics but no one really graduating to headlining their own solo title. Certainly Marvel hasn't had anything comparable to DC's long-lasting Robin title. So that lack of teen characters with real staying power and headlining potential has kept Marvel from having to really worry about addressing generational concerns.

On the flipside of the age scale, Marvel's had only a handful of their Golden Age characters still around. Cap was solved by being frozen for decades and Namor is extra long-lived as an Atlantean. Bucky was presumed dead but was revealed to be kept in and out of suspended animation over the decades as the Winter Soldier. And the original Torch was an android. And there are really very few others for Marvel to worry about.

So in a way DC has been a bit more daring by developing younger characters and exploring the older generations but has gotten themselves into this mess as a consequence. We love those old coot JSAers. We love seeing our Robins, Speedys and Kid Flash's grow up and getting out of their mentors' shadows. And we love seeing who's gonna take their places as teen sidekicks and adventurers in turn. It's really a big part of DC's charm, I think.

The only solution, it seems, is to go ahead and continue to let these characters age, albeit not quite at the rate we are. Why the hell not?!? After all, it's a known fact that the average age of the current comic reader is climbing higher and higher. Who's to say in that context that we wouldn't appreciate seeing Superman and Lois Lane start to raise a family or watching Bruce wayne retire (or semi-retire) and let one of his proteges take over or let Barry Allen stay dead while Wally continues to carry on his legacy proudly?

I think the huge fly in the ointment here is the current boom in superhero movies. These are the biggest blockbusters of the day, and the studios are looking for icons to bring to the screen. The comics companies have their hands tied as to go too much against the visions on the silver screen would confuse any consumers who might possibly be bitten by the bug to try out their comics. This is despite the fact that this has not happened much historically. Watchmen aside, there's been very little evidence of more than a brief spike (and sometimes not even that) to sales of a comic starring the hero featured on the big screen. But I guess the reciprocal is that the comic companies fear that if their character isn't definitive or iconic enough, then the studios will pass over the opportunity to make a movie out of it.

So, I dunno, we may have to wait until the current movie boom passes to see some solution to the aging problem. Let's hope the comics will still even be around when that happens!

Dan Didio and I agree that the original Titans growing up have cause that aging issue we have today. Prior to that, even with the JSA tied to WWII, there were ways to circumvent the passage of time.

But now that all the Titans have had kids (swinging bachelor Dick excepted) how do we explain Bruce being in his mid 30's? He and Dick are the biggest problem really. All the others can stay somewhat young because of their powers- Supes being a solar battery, Diana being immortal, Flash tapping into the Speed Force- but even Bruce has to give up the good fight sometime around his 40's.

Well, if we just kill all the damn Titans, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

Actually, we'd have to make it so they and all their kids and lovers, etc. had never existed! No evidence must be left!!!

They need to steal one of the decent ideas John Byrne had and have Bats take a bath in the Lazarus Pit (after defeating the Serpent's Head once and for all) and becoming immortal, like the rest of his League buddies (since we've seen evidence that Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, etc. don't age, and that the Flash(es), etc. can also negate their aging in various ways.

Then it will be a moot point whether or not Bats is 'getting too old for this ****.'

I dunno. An immortal Batman just seems wrong on so many levels.

Er... Unless he's a vampire.

Yeah, that was an Elseworlds called "Red Reign".

Does anyone concur that my assertion that aging and the passage of time is MUCH more a problem for DC than for Marvel? I thought my post near the top of this page would've provoked some responses, but instead, the thread went DEAD for five days!

Thoughts?

Well Marvel doesn't really do the legacy thing. (They did with Legacy, and look how he turned out.) They are starting to get to that point tho'. But I don't think there was anything to debate with your comment Lardy. Marvel doesn't have the aging issue DC has.

With DC's use of teen sidekicks, that's been the biggest cause for aging. Even if the JSA were tied to WWII, you could say their... enhanced physiology would slow their aging rate. And their kids could feasibly be pushing 30.

Up until Young Avengers, Marvel's only really aging character would be Spiderman. And well, they've clearly fixed that problem haven't they... The New Mutants, while being the underclassmen, weren't as young as Dick Grayson. And they haven't aged as much either- Sam still can't drink if I recall an X-Men annual from a couple years back.

Captain America, Namor, Magneto- these characters have connections to WWII. But through cryogenics, reversed aging, and mutant anatomy, they've been able to remain active even into their 70's. For the rest of the Marvel U, it's a matter of tweaking origins ala` Heroes Reborn. (Not a fine example, but an obvious one.)

They should go the "New Look Batman" route and erase all previous continuity and have Batman and Robin just 'show up' again. They've "been around awhile" but no one knows them.

Internet fans would commit suicide by the dozens.

Honestly, Bruce Wayne not being Batman does not appeal to me. Its Bruce or bust. And let the entire DCU history and continuity suffer if need be. And obviously, most of DC, *and* Time Warner, agree with me. I'd wager so do most of the citizens of the United States of America that do not collect comics on a regular basis. Mainly because Bruce is central now to the history of modern popular-culture. He's beyond things such as 'continuity'.

Lard Lad, I think you said one of the few things that the internet can agree on.

I don't like the idea of an immortal Batman, it goes against the entire "idea" of the character (mortal man who has trained, but no special powers). To make him immortal disconnects him from all of that.

It's one reason I don't like the Lazarus pit, I'm fine with it being for Ra's Al Ghul (after all, villains play by different rules than heroes) but for anyone else to use it is just wrong in my eyes. I don't even like the idea that Black Canary supposedly got dunked, to me the Lazarus pit works if only Ra's can use it, but when you open up to everyone else in the DC it blurs lines or something.

Here, let me try to be coherent. To me, Batman, and his characters (Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, etc) work on two levels, the street level of the Bat-verse (Gotham and their respective cities) and the DC universe as a whole.

To me it makes no sense for Batman NOT to call on Superman everytime Joker breaks out of jail. I cannot fathom a Batman who is so arrogant that he won't use ALL the resources at his disposal to stop a mass murderer. HOWEVER, you can't have a superhero (or a protagonist in general) who is constantly being bailed out or helped by other heroes. He becomes incompetent. So Batman has to fight crime on his own. It is a situation that has to exist for the character to be viable.

Look at the other cities of the DCU, generally all their costumed denziens are powered, yet Gotham is crawling with NON-powered heroes, in fact I can't think of any Gotham based hero who has powers. It's because Gotham is a base for the more "realistic" non-powered stories whereas the rest of the DCU is for the powered set.

So that is the Bat-verse, in a way if Batman had been independently owned or with a smaller company (ala Fawcett) it would make sense to have Batman in a separate universe/earth as that is essentially how those characters operate in their own titles (or the "Bat" titles).

The DC universe Batman (and family) are the characters that interact with Superman, Flash, Titans, etc. Also very important aspects of the characters, and interesting relationships that shouldn't be gotten ride of for the sake of convince, but in reality conflict with the Bat-verse version of the characters. This is why you don't see the JLA, Titans, or anyone else visiting these characters in their own book on any regular basis (there is generally one issue every now and then, but I bet you can name all the ones in the last decade on one hand, and even fewer would be ones in which the Bat clan and the other heroes actually took out a Bat foe).

Ok, so my point is that DC has a very popular character that is important to the DCU, but also whose solo adventures don't work in the context of the DCU. We as fans buy into this conceit (just as we will believe that a man can fly) but as fans we generally don't want to see these two verses mesh. So an immortal Batman crosses into the more fantastic realm of all the other Bat characters (same with using all the advance tech the JLA has make Babs walk again, crosses a line). And that line into the fantastic is why I don't like the Lazarus pit.

So DC is kinda stuck with this problem. They could do a general reboot, but I am against that solution because a) it undoes a lot of character growth/movement (I don't want to see Dick as Robin again) b) characters will disappear (Tim Drake, one of my faves and c) you open up a whole new can of worms with whether you should have Clark end up and Lois (predictable but what many fans want as they see this as "right") or putting Clark with someone else just to "shake" things up and thus alienate fans who feel the relationship is "hollow" or whatever

Anyways, hope that makes sense.

Your comment about Batman existing in two separate universes really highlights my frustration with the Big Two books. I miss the different tones of Mike Grell’s Green Arrow and James Robinson’s Starman. Too often the books are generic super-hero fare- replace Hawkman for Blue Beetle, Aquaman for the Atom. Under Judd Winnick’s run, Green Arrow had a sidekick return, a son, a new sidekick and even a computer hacker working with him, Might as well have been writing Batman! Sad part of it all, I blame readers as much as the publishers- when DC tries with books like Manhunter readers don’t flock to it like I would expect.

Marvel is doing a great job handling Captain America- Bru writes a gripping espionage book, and Bendis has him in a standard super-hero title interacting with the rest of the universe. I wish we had more of that. I like the idea of the urban vigilante in Batman, and the adventurous Dark Knight in JLA or Outsiders. Give me the poor man’s Robin Hood in GA and the swashbuckler in Justice League.

With all the books out there, why can’t we have more variety in our heroes?

I'm not referring to anything as blatant as redesigning the look, ground-up, of a particular species. I'm talking about the basic stylistic differences in the way one artist renders figures and composes pages, as opposed to how another does so. One of my favorite things about the Heroes History page of Major Spoilers is getting to see back-to-back how a bunch of different artists interpreted the same characters-- though it still bothers me that frequently the page doesn't credit a particular artist: I often don't know whose work I'm seeing because it was either before my time reading Legion or after.

Quote

This is the same reason I hate flex-time. It prevents full engagement because older stories, to be accepted in continuity, can't be as they appear in the actual comics (that is, they took place in a more recent year than shown).

And beyond that, it's the reason I hate retcons in general. It's why I want a universe that takes a more literal and less conceptual approach, if you get what I mean.

Uh, yeah. No argument there. Though to be fair, it hurts the integrity of a story in the distant future less than it hurts one set in the present.

I didn't mean for this to linger unloved for so long...


While doing some bathroom remodeling, it has occurred to me there is no reading material in my bathroom. There's a reason for that- I'm not one for reading in there. But I know many people that do. There's even a series of books- The Bathroom Reader- aimed at providing leisure time reading in the lavatory.

So I'm thinking of stocking up some older comics to put in there for folks to read. Something else else that would provide them with a complete story preferrably. What would you recommend as a great single issue story?

Though I don't leave comics in the bathroom, I must admit I take them with me quite often when I know I'm gonna be...sitting in there for a while!

As for what to leave in there for others? Damn, I don't know! But if I were to choose, I'd put Adventure Comics #0 or some other reprints of classic comics. Those issues of Marvel Tales that reprinted classic Stan Lee Spidey would be prefect as would any Free Comic Book Day offerings. And didn't DC recently do some cheap reprints of good Vertigo/mature first issues to give prospectors who saw Watchmen some cool, inexpensive entry points? If so, those would be great, too!

If nothing else, all those'd pass the time really well while they had a righteous b.m.!

(Nice to know someone missed the Roundtable, btw!)

One of my favorite single-issue stories is Avengers # 264, by Roger Stern and John Buscema, showcasing the Wasp and introducing Rita DeMara, the female Yellowjacket, a character with great potential that was sadly never realized. The Wasp's personality was often ill-defined, but here, she's the most likeable she ever was, and thanks to John Buscema, she never looked lovelier.

Swamp Thing #32 - "Pog" - Linguistic craziness, Walt Kelly meets Alan Moore, funny and sad, what's not to love?

The Sandman # 18 - "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" - Great story and the only time I've loved Jones' art (probably because he's not drawing humans).

JLA #42 - "Half A Mind To Save A World" - The JLA struggles to remove a microscopic civilisation that is growing on the brain tumour of a sick child. It was pretty standard until the end when you realise it's an analogue for Krypton and the emotional impact on Superman is really powerful.

Suicide Squad - Any of the "Personnel Files" issues. These happened once a year or so and were "Down time" between missions. Each one had just tremendous character examinations and set up the next years stories perfectly.

Swamp Thing #59 - "Reunion" - Abby gets to say goodbye to her Dad. That page where they embrace after all they've suffered is still beautiful.

G.I.Joe #21 - "Silent Interlude" - Perhaps the only use of the "Silent" comic gimmick I've loved, and I wasn't even a huge Joe fan. Hamma not only tells a great story, but his reveal at the end not only changes the course of the Joe Comic, but really transformed the entire franchise.

Detective Comics #500 - "To Kill A Legend" - The Phantom Stranger takes Bruce and Dick to an Earth where Bruce's parent are about to be killed. Dick wrestles with whether they can and should stop the events from happening and deny the world without heroes a Batman, and Bruce tries to get the closure he's sought his whole life. Great story with a great ending.

Issues of Jonah Hex or Dawyn Cooke's issues of the Spirit.

Amazing Spider-Man #22 (I know, you wouldn't want that one lying around your bathroom but seriously its such a fun, upbeat, action-filled, great single issue story).

Pretty much anything by Carl Barks: the Duck Man RULES!!

This should give this thread a shot in the arm:

Career-spanning interview with Peter David

The only David stuff I've read is the Tail end of the DC series of "Fallen Angel". It was for a reader exchange program on another board (I started picking this up and the other guy agreed to try Human Target, it didn't save either title).

It was OK, but not great.

I do have the complete run of Hulk DVD they released a few years back and look forward to the day I get up to his run on the book though. I've heard good things.

Hmmm PAD's work that I've read

AQUAMAN - wow Aquaman can be cool. His take seemed similar to Busiek's, that of Tarzan underwater. PAD mentions DC wanting him to be a king and a loner at the same time, and he made it work. Less super-hero and more adventure, he started a great run that Larsen and Jurgens kept going.

YOUNG JUSTICE - this was a FUN book. And it was that mythical all-ages book that wasn't overly childish or too melodramatic. PAD brought in some great new characters - Empress, Lil Lobo, Arrowette. This book made John's TT run possible.

X-FACTOR - the current run. I started reading for Siryn and Rictor, but PAD has me actually liking Monet and Maddrox. Some folks have lost their love for it, but PAD does his best to make this a reader's book.

FALLEN ANGEL - PAD's best work- his characters unleashed, his stories unfettered. Morality is gray and bloody, life is uncertain, and not always happy. It's a revolutionary look at super-heroes.

When Peter David is on, he's really on. He always seems to go that one extra step into thinking about how a characters powers would affect their personality (or how their personality would shape their attitude towards and expressions of their powers).

Like some of my other favorite authors, he's got a knack for dusting off abandoned 'third tier' characters and making them all shiny and new.

It's when he's working with pre-established characters with lots of baggage, like Spiderman, that I'm not so impressed. I don't know if that's him having to fight many other writers pre-conceptions, or my just often being less than interested in characters I've had 20 years or so to read my fill of.

I remember discovering PAD as he began writing Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-man. He came out of nowhere to give that title a real shot in the arm! He only stayed for a year or two, but that was a solid run of stories. If he'd stayed longer I believe PAD could've become one of the definitive Spider-man writers. Who can argue with the quality of "The Death of Jean DeWolf"? But his run was just as defined by some great two-parters and especially some good done-in-ones.

It's a shame that when he finally returned on Friendly, that his hands were tied so badly by editorial dictates. I've heard he did the best with what he had, but it could've been SO much better without the handcuffs!

Then there's Hulk! Wow! The definitive run on the character, bar none. What was cool was how he kept reinventing the character to keep him fresh. I especially loved the period where Bruce went back to being gray Hulk and then to alternating between becoming green or grey. The era with smart Hulk and the Pantheon was really goo, too.

In fact it was consistently good until the Onslaught debacle tied his storytelling up. I actually dropped the book at that time because the stories were so dreadful. I came back for the final arc, though, and it was a poignant, heartbreaking way for PAD to close out his run.

At DC I loved his work on Aquaman and Supergirl. He breathed some much need life into Aquaman, a character who never seemed to find the right hook (natch) for him.

And Supergirl was a masterpiece for him, right up there with his Hulk, I think. It always felt so personal, and the religious themes were almost unheard of in mainstream comics. It had a few lulls, true, but it always found a way to bounce back. And that last arc was one of the best ever to close out a series. It's too bad Linda Danvers appears to have been wiped out of continuity for all intents and purposes--but I think we all know where the character went next at least spiritually in a new home where PAD didn't have to worry about editorial constraints.

Lots of honorable mentions, including some solid work on Star Trek, some brilliant moments on X-Factor and a book I have a soft spot for, Justice from Marvel's short-lived New Universe line.

As for Fallen Angel, it's definitely on my to-buy list at some point. I did buy the first DC trade back-when and enjoyed it a lot. One barrier for me has always been the lack of trades completing the entire DC series. I'd prefer to read all the DC stories before starting the IDW trades. I can hardly believe that IDW hasn't obtained the rights to reprint the DC series. Does anyone know why this is?!?! Other comapnies do this all the time!

Anyhow, I'd feel negligent if I didn't mention PAD's terrific work in novels. Howling Mad is one of the funniest books I've ever read! And his Star Trek: TNG novels are among the best licensed books I've ever read, right up there with Timothy Zahn's Star Wars work. If you love TNG and haven't read "Vendetta" and "Imzadi" I and II, you're really missing out!

I’ve always felt I have an interesting POV/history with PAD’s work throughout my comic book reading experience. When I first started reading comics religiously, it was around age 11-12, and as many of you know, my father had been collecting comics since 1960 and already had an enormous collection, so I had a very different roadmap. But also at that time of my first really getting into them, my father had been getting the CBG (Comics Buyers Guide) delivered weekly for several years. It was an awesome newspaper format back then, and so I started reading that each week too. I distinctly remember using CBG to catch myself up on decades of history, where Silver Age characters I loved were doing now, and really getting a better feel for comics as a whole. Of course, not everything in there was suitable for an 11 year old, but hey, I read the Sin City comics when I was like 14 or younger. Anyway, PAD has had a column in CBG for almost (or over?) two decades, in the back of the newspaper/magazine (as it is now), called “But I Digress…”

It was “But I Digress…” that I really started to get to know PAD, and understand his point of view. I really feel like I grew up with PAD as a major influence on my comic book reading experience—more so with that than his actual comics. But one day I eventually put two and two together and realized Peter David wrote comics that my Dad was collecting, so I started to read his comics as they came out; I also hunted backwards and read all his old Marvel work. But it is because of this that I see his work in two ways: (A) I usually love it; and because I’ve loved it for so long, I’m usually pretty excited about his projects; (B) I feel very comfortable being very critical of his work that I think is flawed. And there is a portion of his work that I think hasn’t been the greatest stuff. He’s obviously a controversial writer on the internet, which means some people don’t like him outright without reading his stuff, but so many of his fans just plain like everything he writes, and its that latter group that I find extremely annoying.

Anyway, some thoughts:

Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man – I actually read this before I knew PAD wrote these issues, and Lardy is dead-on; he gave the title a real shot in the arm, and stepped it up to being an A-quality Spider-Man title. His “Death of Jean DeWolf” story stands the test of time and is better and better every time I’ve reread it (which is probably like 20 times). His other issues, including his very first introducing Blaze, are also very good. During this era, when Spidey had a black costume, there was an added sense of angst across all three titles. You can almost pinpoint it to the moment when Sin-Eater fires at Spidey, he jumps out of the way and the crowd behind him is hit. Henceforth for a good year, it was angst the like that hasn’t been seen since ASM #17. Sometimes it got annoying (re: Web of Spider-Man); sometimes it was done perfectly. PAD’s was the latter.

Incredible Hulk – in my mind, the greatest Hulk run of all time, and one of the greatest comic book runs of all-time. It is what got me to love the Hulk. Either the summer of 1992 or 1993 I read the entire run of the Hulk (usually at the beach) and remember being completely blown away by PAD’s portion of the run. Most of it is brilliant, but my favorite era is the Pantheon, #400, Rick & Marlo’s wedding but also Rick’s Bachelor Party, and so much more. It was the first time I ever saw such perfectly done humor mix with some of the most poignant emotional moments.

Aquaman – And then PAD came to Aquaman and completely blew my mind. His is my definitive Aquaman as well, including every little tidbit he did. He made him badass, ill-tempered, finally reflective of the tragedies that befell him in the 70’s (dead son? Almost impossible to recover from.), and he roped in the various far-reaching charactres of DC’s underwater world and them all together. Dolphin! Hook hand! Beard! New Costume! Koryak! Garth becomes Tempest, gets a cool costume and at last becomes cool! Battles the JLA and cheats—awesome! Sea Devils, Tsunami, Neptune Perkins and then Deep Blue! PAD had everything. And the history with Atlan and the more in depth origins of Atlantis and Aquaman were perhaps the best part, which leads me too…

The Atlantis Chronicles – which I read sometime in the middle of PAD’s run, since it came to my attention that many of his themes were continuations of what he had done here. And wow, it really threw me for a loop. What a damn fine mini-series, one of the classic yet unsung greats of the 1980’s.

Supergirl – A completely unique and intriguing book at the time, which combined the Superman mythos with a mood reminiscent of Twin Peaks. This was incredible, and I remember being blown away the first few years.

With Supergirl, Aquaman and Hulk going at the same time, PAD was peaking in the 1990’s. And then IMO, they all took a nosedive in quality and seemed to wander seamlessly for a few years. And only through his CBG articles did I later learn why: he was in the midst of a divorce and having a hard time finding his motivations for each of the three. And looking back on it, its evident that PAD himself was likely similar to Aquaman wandering alone in the water, the Hulk reverting back to a mindless loner, etc. So I don’t really blame him, because like I said, I feel like I kind of know him.

Yet, he had several other great runs since then:

Young Justice – one of the great comics of the last 20 years, and it’s a damn shame it ended. One of the most fun comics ever.

Fallen Angel – truly his masterpiece, which continues to be a wonderful read that is full of so much that it will undoubtedly take future rereads to pick up on some pieces.

Dark Tower series – having PAD onboard has no doubt ensured the transition from gigantic novels to comic books has been a creatively successful one.

Spyboy – one of the coolest Dark Horse / PAD series that no one apparently bought but me.

X-Factor (current) – I think its one of his best efforts in this decade outside Fallen Angel. I know some people are down on it because of recent issues, but I don’t think the quality of the writing has been that horrible; the art definitely has but its not PAD’s fault. I’m definitely willing to wait a good amount longer to see what PAD has in mind.

But I’d be wrong to not include what I think have been some poor showings:

Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man – despite some worthy tries to bring in some great moments (Betty Brant, Flash, etc.), for the most part, I found this to be one of PAD’s most unenjoyable runs on anything ever.

She-Hulk – another I really disliked, which I felt slow and boring. I just expect better from Peter David, and I have no great love of She-Hulk to keep me intrigued.

Of these last two, perhaps Lardy is right and the larger Marvel editorial hampered what he was trying to do. But knowing PAD like I think I do, I know he’s often complained about crossovers before but is always the first to try to use them to give his titles a sales bump. So the fault is most definitely his.

Random PAD material I’ve never read
(1) First X-Factor run – my father had no use for X-Factor the first time around and so we never owned it and I never read it.
(2) Star Trek stuff – just not my thing
(3) Spider-Man 2099 – at the time I was a young teenager and since it wasn’t “the real Spider-Man”, I refused to read it. Ever since, I’ve just had no desire to do anything than glance through some back-issues.

I'm fairly certain I have most of (1) and a large chunk of (3) if you ever wanna stop by and dig through a couple of longboxes. I enjoyed both but don't consider them part of "my collection".

I never understood why PAD didn't stay on Spidey longer. Do you remember anything from those "But I Digress..." columns? My best guess there is that he left because he was hired to write Spidey 2099 and didn't want to write 2 versions of the character. Total guess though.

PAD's penchant for balancing humor with drama was just so perfect for Spidey. What could've been...*sigh*

(2099, btw, had its moments but kinda ran out of gas after the second year, IMO.)

Y'know, other than the slump near the end that I mentioned it's definitely worthy of the praise, though I had one quibble with the Pantheon era that I've never been satisfied with: Marlo's resurrection. It just seemed a little too easy, and I kept expecting the other shoe to drop because of this. But it never did. I know we've seen many, many of these in comics, but this one never worked for me at all. For me it's a "jump the shark" moment. Anyone else have some thoughts there?

Fully agree! This had a grand, mythic quality to it, coupled with some absolutely gorgeous artwork!

I never picked this up for some reason. The first couple of issues just didn't do anything for me. I've heard good things, though.

Having just gotten halfway thru "Gunslinger Born" so far, I'd have to agree. It's a little slow but very rich storytelling. And, oh my GOD, Jae Lee's art and the total presentation are just breathtaking!

Bought this and enjoyed it at the beginning but shipping delays absolutely murdered this book for me.

Artistic inconsistency has hurt this one badly. They seem, though, to have a string of issues featuring a competent, consistent art team going now. I have the first three collections of the current series and recently picked it back up with the (in?)famous birth issue and plan to give it until issue 50 to hook me in for the long haul. I love what he does with Jamie Madrox above all else.

I haven't read any of it really, but I give him a free pass because of how the first few issues were tied up in that dreadful "The Other" storyline and most of the rest was bound by the curveball stunt of Spidey's unmasking to the public. Hard to really riff on Peter and Spidey properly under that constraint.

I'm much more of a follower of characters than creators, but there a few writers whose work I'll always at least try, even if I'm otherwise uninterested in whatever property/subject they're writing.

Peter David's one of them.

I came late to the HULK party, but loved the Pantheon issues. I'd like to see them show up again, but pretty much only if PAD's the writer.

I know what Lardlad means about Marlo's resurrection. I think from many other writers, the lack of a further twist would've gone unnoticed, but with PAD, it sort of *did* leave the reader unfulfilled. I know I, too, always expected some other shoe to drop.

I guess sometimes a resurrection is just a resurrection.

I enjoyed all the usual suspects-- SUPERGIRL, AQUAMAN, YOUNG JUSTICE (which did take a few issues to grow some heart beneath the chuckles), etc.

About the first X-FACTOR-- if nothing else, the issue where Doc Samson has sessions with each member is worth seeking out. It's a classic, in it's own way.

I agree that a wild variety of artists and worse, artistic styles, have hampered the second X-FACTOR. The stories have mostly been worth reading, particularly if, like me, you have some amount of fondness for the characters. I'm pretty tired of the current alternative future storyline, but it's balanced by a mysterious villain and the return of Shatterstar, both of which I'm enjoying.

I think Jamie Madrox joins Linda Danvers, the Pantheon and a select group of other characters that PAD has placed his stamp upon. Not a stamp of ownership, but of true characterization.

I had mixed feelings about his SHE-HULK run, too. Losing the vivid supporting cast was a misfire, I think. However, there was some gold-- namely the Lady Liberators issues. The story they were involved in wasn't all that earth-shaking (but it was provocative in a subtle sort of way), but the way PAD wrote the women, particulary Valkyrie, was incredibly entertaining. I think if he got the chance to pen a Val series, she could join that select group of characters I mentioned earlier.

Did anyone read the Marvel Pets Handbook that came out a couple of weeks ago? Apparently, someone at Marvel thinks that the Valkyrie in SHE-HULK was the Samantha Parrington one. I don't see how that could fit with the way PAD wrote her.

I haven't read the ST:TNG novels listed above, but I did read and can recommend the FINAL FRONTIER sub-series of Trek books. At least the early ones-- somehow I lost track of Trek for awhile there.

I like that it's sort of off to the side from the usual Star Trek universe-- and especially like that PAD brought back the characters of M'ress and Arex from the animated series that gets woefully overlooked.

I'm very happy to see all the mad PAD love in this thread. I can't add much more than a few random thoughts:

- I notice nobody's mentioned PAD's run on Dreadstar. I'm not really surprised, but I really hope that someday it'll gain more recognition, as, in my opinion, PAD actually improved on Jim Starlin's original Dreadstar the same way that Walt Simonson's Thor improved on Lee & Kirby's original Thor.

- PAD did not quit Peter Parker The Spectacular Spider-Man. The Powers That Be forced then-Spidey-editor Jim Owsley (now known as Christopher Priest) to fire PAD because of a sh*tstorm between Marvel's editorial and marketing departments. As PAD was a marketing staffer at the time, he was aware of the situation and doesn't hold it against Priest.

- Young Justice and Supergirl came out while I was reading very few comics and wasn't following the industry or going to comics stores. I've had to severely cut down on back-issue purchases, but I like what I've read so far and hope to complete the runs in the future.

- X-Factor Mk. 2 was my favorite comic book for its first couple years, then I thought it went into a quality spiral, and I dropped it after # 35. The controversial childbirth issue was good enough to get me to Byrne-steal the book every month, but so far it hasn't recaptured enough of the magic for me to start buying it again.

- I can't wait for Fallen Angel Reborn. As with X-Factor, the first two years or so were pure gold, but I feel that the last few issues suffered from having to cram a long-term storyarc into a small amount of space; great ending, though, and I'm confident the relaunch will be back on form.

Thinking about PAD a little more, I've kind of been developing a term for "PAD characters": these are specific characters within a series that PAD writes so well, they memorably stand out in your mind when you think about the series in retrospect. Its kind of hard to put into words what I’m thinking, but what I mean is, PAD usually writes his solo/team titles with an excellent analysis of the main character(s) and the emotional experience they’re having; he also provides excellent tension with the character(s) romantic partner (and in fact, I would say goes ten steps further in these scenarios but that’s another stream of thought); but he *also* provides excellent supporting characters that really shine in the series. Now don’t get me wrong: (1) these characters do not take over the book (re: they do not pull a fonzy)…otherwise we would probably hate these characters in retrospect. And (2) these are not the main character or the romantic partner; these are in addition to those long-standing archetypes.

For example (granted it’s a little harder to find in team books):

(1) Fallen Angel – this one is jam-packed full of them, but IMO Black Mariah has really emerged as a bonafide “PAD character” star. She’s my favorite character of the series, and almost every line of hers is either the funniest line in the issue, or perhaps the most emotionally poignant. And she doesn’t dominate the series at all, she’s purely a supporting character and will always remain that way.

(2) Incredible Hulk – Rick Jones might be the easy one to think of, but I would say that’s not true, since Rick is essentially a Marvel Heroes star anyway. Rather, I think Marlo is the type of character I’m getting at. She sticks out in my mind as the quintessential PAD character during his run: her very presence helped further develop all the characters and stories around her; she was awesomely funny at times; she was filled with tragedy and drama, and her scenes sometimes were whimsical and fun and yet at other times disturbing and poignant.

(3) Supergirl – I think ultimately Buzz developed as the type of character in Supergirl similar to the others. And honestly, I never really cared for Buzz myself, but I can see what PAD was trying to do…he certainly developed more than any other character in the whole run. I know some people (not on LW but on other boards) complained he was too much like Spike from Buffy but PAD has always said that was never intentional. It was only after fans made that comparison that PAD tried to play that up online to get Buffy fans to check out the sales-ailing Supergirl.

(4) Aquaman – Aquaman is chalk-full of these types of characters as well, but Dolphin is of course the one that sticks in my mind, even though the early issues flirted with the idea of a Dolphin/Aquaman romance (so yeah, I’m breaking my own rule ). But up until PAD took hold of her, Dolphin was basically a throw away DC character with one late 60’s Showcase appearance and then a few good bits of dialogue in Crisis on Infinite Earths #12. That’s right—she only appeared in basically two other issues prior (her most memorable thing was her cut-off shorts honestly until PAD took the character). He then used her perfectly: she went from being the reader’s POV person to someone questioning Aquaman’s actions to being his best ally and then when just maybe her presence in the book was getting repetitive, PAD used her to breath some fresh life into Garth much like he did with Orin.

I’m sure there are dozens of examples, including multiple in the various books, and that’s a tribute to how well PAD uses supporting characters. Its always done differently (he is an excellent writer after all and its obvious he doesn’t want to bore himself more than anything), but they are always the ones you least expect and they always change the scope of the series in subtle ways by affecting characters and story montages themselves.

On the side-topic of PAD's Star Trek books, he had a line of 'New Frontiers' book that I tended to call 'Sex Trek,' because there was a whole lot of booty-callin' going on.

It got particularly confusing when the hermaphroditic engineer got involved, as s/he was canoodling at different points with both the male helmsman and the female doctor.

Unlike classic Star Trek, which had a bunch of normal people and Spock, the New Frontiers crew was full of more unique characters, much like the Next Generation crew (android, klingon, blind dude with super-visor, empath), which gave many of the main cast a special 'hook' of some sort.

The first one had a hamfisted tribute to Gene Roddenberry in it, but the remaining books picked up steam a bit and started fleshing out secondary characters, as well as introducing a few 'bridge' characters from previous series, such as the Vulcan doctor Selar (first seen in Next Generation).

If you're a Trek fan, they are a fun read. I haven't read a whole lot of Star Trek books in the last decade or so, but I think that PAD is the only writer to so far be allowed to write a series of book not set in one of the mainstream series continuities (i.e. you'll find a hundred or more novels set about the Enterprise of Kirk and Spock, or the Enterprise of Picard and Data, or Deep Space Nine or Janeway's Voyager, but not nearly as many books set on 'some other dudes ship,' let alone series of books about author-created characters on their own ship!).

Wow, I just looked them up on Wiki. I'd read the first three or four, but they're up to *seventeen!*

One series he worked on that hasn't really been mentioned is Captain Marvel. I thought that one was pretty much a misfire from the get-go. I gave up on it after about a year into the first series and came back and quickly left again when it was relaunched.

I thought the character of Genis-Vell had huge potential after reading Avengers Forever and was really excited about the new series launch and PAD being attached to it. It started out decent, but it seemed like it was trying to recapture the Hulk vibe a little too much with the style of humor and the presence of Rick and Marlo. What killed everything for me was when PAD dove into Genis going insane and basically turning evil. I'm not saying there's no room for that kind of story, but for it to have been effective, I think it would have been better to establish Genis in a heroic light for a pretty good length of time before exploring him losing it. I felt I'd barely even begun to know this character before he was being torn down.

What was worse was that the arc just went on too long. If you're going to take the book in this direction, you'd better make it absolutely captivating. It wasn't.

I know the book got a lot of acclaim during it's life, but I just don't see it. I think that it hasn't been mentioned along with PAD's career highlights here speaks volumes.

I was just thinking of "Captain Marvel" in relation to this thread. I also was really psyched about Genis after "Avengers Forever". Maybe Busiek would've been a better choice for the series, but aside from the artist making Cap too bulky and making that star on his chest too big, I enjoyed the series a lot! Yeah, it may have helped for Marlo and Rick to have stepped back a bit, but I thought it was a very entertaining series.

However, I also really disliked the turn the series took after Genis went mad in the second series. That wasn't fun or funny. It's too bad Genis met such a bad end - that horrible outfit in "Thunderbolts" then getting written off like that. He could've been a real heavy-hitter in the Marvel U.

Considering how much I didn't care for the original Captain Marvel, I've always been perplexed by how much I liked Genis and even 'Marvel Boy,' his spin-off characters.

Genis' 'death' is perhaps one of the few comic book deaths that logically sets itself up for a return. Much like Zemo's folding castle, Genis may be separated by vast gulfs of space and time, but he's not necessarily dismembered (as the rooms in the folding castle maintained some sort of permanant connection, even when separated by great distances), just trapped in many spaces at once.

I'd only heard of the character before Avengers Forever, but that story got me interested in him, so his appearance in Thunderbolts was a welcome thing.

I consider Captain Marvel, counting the two series as one, to be the weakest extended run that PAD has ever written. Perhaps because it started during a particularly low time in his personal life (as Cobie mentioned earlier, PAD's first marriage ended during the late 90s) it was tainted from the start. Then again, didn't Young Justice start in '97? In that case, it's a mystery to me why Captain Marvel was so bad.

Which only makes me recommend PAD's Dreadstar run even more strongly. It's an action-packed cosmic extravaganza with the best art of Angel Medina's career, plus a superlative guest-artist job from a very young Steve Epting.

Dreadstar and, to lesser extent, Star Trek (I've only read a few of PAD's Trek comics and none of his Trek prose), are what keep me believing that PAD would write one hell of a Fantastic Four. Can't you just picture PAD re-teaming with Todd Nauck for a long run on FF? Yum.

Damn straight, Stealth! Why the hell has PAD pretty much kept his hands off the FF when he has touched practically every other corner of the Marvel Universe?!?! The more I think of it, the more I wish he'd give the FF a shot. The FF, IMO, have pretty much stagnated ever since John Byrne left the series with two notable exceptions: Walt Simsonson and parts of the Waid/Weiringo run (honorable mention to Alan Davis's too-brief run).

I know PAD would just have to write the best Johnny and Ben ever and would probably have a terrific take on Reed and Sue as well. Hell, Franklin and Val would probably rock, too!

In addition I think PAD would build up the FF's supporting cast which has consisted pretty much exclusively of Alicia Masters for any length of time.

A PAD FF run (with Todd Nauck in tow) would definitely have my interest! I wonder if this hasn't happened before because PAD's completely disinterested or because of Marvel's continued insistence on pairing one of their flagship titles with creators who are either a terrible fit for it or just not top-flight talent?

It's bizarre, isn't it? Much as I dislike Mark Millar, I can see the logic of putting a writer with a wild reputation on FF*, but the results could charitably be called timid, as if Millar was overwhelmed by the legacy of Stan & Jack. And now they've given it to Jonathan Hickman, an indie writer chipping his way into the mainstream who had little or no previous familiarity with the FF.

PAD's old enough to have read Stan & Jack's FF as a kid, which I think is crucial to recapturing the SPIRIT of Stan & Jack's trailblazing run, while at the same time, he's too smart and too talented to go the retro route.


*If I were EiC of Marvel and I had decided to go the wild-writer route with FF, I would have hired Joe Kelly instead of Mark Millar. It would be either a trainwreck or the most exciting FF since Stan & Jack, and I think the risk is worth taking. But PAD's still my top choice for FF.

I've got to agree that PAD on FF would be the most exciting thing to happen to PAD or the FF right now (for me at least). It seems a natural fit. PAD's imagination is such that he could provide vastly epic and *new* stories for them, yet keep the dynamic grounded in family. And like Lardy says, hopefully introduce a supporting character or three with some real staying power. Plus, I think he'd know the boring, tired old "Reed and Sue are fighting routine" was played out in the 1970s.

As for Captain Marvel, I thought about adding that to my posts before but kept it out because it really didn't fit with what I was saying. His run there is definitely different from the others, likely because of the aforementioned personal problems he was having at the time.

I don't think it was terrible, but it wasn't his best effort. On the whole, I was super-excited about Captain Marvel following Avengers Forever too; plus Rick & Marlo had been written out of the Hulk for about a good two years by then so it was exciting for the to be included too--I'm also a big fan of the fact that Rick kind of bounces between several titles every few years for like 40 years now. And I think the first half of his run was really great! Lots of action, funny dialogue, a sense of fun and some interesting dynamics. Yet it started to drift a little because of two things: (1) Genis himself never seemed to be able to evolve; he almost felt handicapped in that way. And (2) I hated that Marlo started to have feelings for Moondragon instead of Rick. I can see what PAD was trying to do but I really felt betrayed too, and I had loved Marlo's character up until that point. Rick Jones is a character that will last in Marvel--anyone who says otherwise is kidding himself. Kill him and he'll be brought back. Do something bad to him and it will be undone. History has proven that. But Marlo is not that way; make the readers dislike her and consider her career over...it would only be a matter of time where she would (hopefully) end up in limbo, since the other more likely scenario is her death or worse.

When PAD restrated the series with Genis going mad, the series really took a nosedive for me. But in addition to what we've talked about with what the Hulk, Aquaman and Supergirl were all going through during this period of PAD's life, there's another major contributing factor some people may have forgotten: Bill Jemas & Joe Quesada. During this period, PAD was literally “called out” by the powers that be of his own freaking company. He basically was suckered into competing with them in that contest to see which title would garner the most sales. And the kicker? Jemas basically made his all about sex and Quesada was “so busy” (note sarcasm) that he didn’t even write his and set it in the uber-popular ultimate universe. So what PAD had to do to compete was make Genis completely over the top, as well as make his story fit for a TPB—something all Marvel comics were doing at this time that was hurting almost every title because it was so forced. Those things were not PAD’s fault; his was the only career that would suffer if he lost. BTW, he did win and I felt glad about helping him because I bought like five copies of Captain Marvel #1 (relaunch). But he’s admitted that despite winning that little contest, all it did at the time was make him even more annoyed at the Marvel PTB, so he eventually realized he simply didn’t want to write comics for them anymore at that time (once Jemas left, PAD was back; it was clear Jemas was the asshole there).

So Captain Marvel came at the worst time for PAD to be writing for Marvel, but still, some of it was pretty good. I did like the character a whole hell of a lot, and I hated—HATED—what Fabian did with him in Thunderbolts. It also made me dislike Phyla for some time before DnA finally got me to warm up to her in GotG.

Genis really should have grown into one of Marvel's greatest heroes and taken his father's place, even exceeding him perhaps. To me, Genis was pretty much THE star of what I thought was an awesome miniseries in Avengers Forever. I know it's hard or even unfair to bind future Avengers writers to events that are shown in a story to be the future, but I really wish this one had come to pass.

I know that the right writer could take over Avengers some day and bring back Genis and make Songbird an Avenger as well, but it's very unlikely with all this damage done. And it's all PAD's fault, I'd say. Yeah, Fabian's the one who killed him, but PAD's the one who poisoned Genis's viability as a truly heroic character. PAD's done a lot more good than bad with characters he's touched, but I'd place this one squarely on the bad side.

In a universe somewhere where Bendis never took over and "disassembled" them and PAD never made Genis crazy, there's an Avengers lineup out there that features Marv, Songbird, a Scarlet Witch who never went crazy and a lot of other favorites we've been missing since the team got all gritty and depressing. I know Bendis's run has been undeniably successful, and it does have it's plusses (like elevating Luke Cage and resurrecting Jessica Drew as a viable character). But the New Avengers are not the Avengers at all. For starters, Wolverine has absolutely no business being there!

So with Blackest Night starting this week and it's focus on dead characters returning on my mind, I thought I might steer the Roundtable toward the topic of death and its obvious impermanence in comics. It seems lately we've had a rash of "resurrected" heroes in our comics, with Kon-El/Superboy, Bart Allen/Kid Flash, Barry Allen/Flash and Steve Rogers/Captain America all coming immediately to mind over the past year.

Barry, in particular, seems the most surprising and unnecessary given the fact he'd been deceased for over two decades and was very effectively replaced by Wally West in the role.

Kon-El and Bart were less surprising, though Kon's death being the exclamation point to a companywide crossover would be moreso than Bart's.

As for Steve Rogers, shit, everyone knew that wasn't going to last long, just as everyone knows that about Bruce Wayne. However, I'm a little surprised at the timing to bring Steve back. Bucky's turn in the red, white & ble seemed to have a lot more gas left in it, so I think Marvel could easily have waited another year or so before flipping that switch.

The larger issue is that death in superhero comics no longer holds any weight at all. It's getting harder and harder to become emotionally invested in the death of a character when we know the odds are against the event holding up. It seems the investment is now more on wondering how long it will be until the character returns more than anything.

I've read that the only deaths that seem to stick are Unlcle Ben's and Gwen Stacy from Spider-man's supporting cast. At the moment I might cautiously add members of the JSA and Titans to that list...though, really, who knows?

For the most part I'm really burned out by the whole thing. I must admit, though, that there have been a few resurrections that have pleased me: Hal Jordan and Ollie Queen primary among those. But there are those that just make me want to scream and tear up comics to vent my frustration: primarily Jean Grey and Norman Osborne.

What do you think about the impermanent nature of death in comics? Are there deaths that have raised your ire for being reversed? Returns that you applauded? How would you like to see deaths handled in the future?

Batman? I thought he was shown to be put back in time, not dead? Did I misunderstand that?

Sales > story

Death can hold weight if it's permanent and dealt with but like any theme, it can become trite and it has. In most cases, I've considered the rebirths a correction, not the problem.

How would a world used to Superman, cope if he were gone? Good story. Nice "elseworlds." Conveniently replace him with 4 new supermans, bad story. Sales gimmick.


Gwen Stacy, done well. This board has discussed before that Legion stories do not spend enough time dealing with the results of disaster and Ferro Lad's death was an opportunity mostly missed that Spiderman didn't. Peter Parker was changed by that death. LSH pretty much went on as if it hadn't happened. One death is known only to a hardcore group of fans and another is comic book canon.


Other deaths I would consider done well and had permanent affects were Supergirl and Flash.

I was thinking about this topic throughout the day, and I can't recall the point at which comic book death became meaningless for me - but it's been a while. It's something of a joke now in the medium, with some characters making comments about how they or someone else came back from the dead.

The problem with eternal life, it has been suggested, is that you wind up with a stagnant society. Old people have to die off to let new ideas take hold, only the impermanence of life lets us appreciate it fully, etc. Refusing to let characters die - major characters, that is - means less room for new faces, an often convoluted and eye-rolling explanation to support the resurrection, and a general inability of the DC and Marvel universes to develop naturally.

I think I would rather miss a character who died, and reread old stories, or have them produce new stories about that character set in the past or elseworlds. Ted Kord's death was well done in that respect, because in the issues leading up to his death, I really came to enjoy the character - then he was gone, and I did feel a bit of a tug on the old heartstrings. (Okay, so he came back in Booster Gold, but I haven't been reading that series, so I don't know if he's really back or if it's a time thing.)

For me, the point at which comic book deaths became meaningless was the resurrection of Jean Grey back in 1984.

That was the rudest awakening for me. Prior to that, I thought comics "meant" something and that the stories carried some weight or significance. I also thought that there was an overall story arc, particularly at Marvel - something akin to a fictionalized history that was meant to take us readers somewhere. I was fully invested in this history: It made the characters and their world all the more real. It showed heroes as being truly heroic when they placed their own lives on the line and, infrequently though it may have happened, when they or their loved ones didn't come back from those sacrifices.

But in one fell swoop, Marvel erased all that. There is no growth in comics because these are fictional, commercial characters meant to sell a product. The stories have no intrinsic value other than "buy the next issue." That was the lesson I learned in 1984.

Oh sure, I denied the lesson. I pretended that it didn't have that much impact - the resurrection had to be a misstep - for a few years. But as time went on and more and more examples of genuine character growth were reversed (anyone remember Wanda and Vision's children?), I came to realize that that was in fact the lesson of Marvel: buy the next issue. Who cares about anything else?

DC's evisceration of the Legion's history during TMK sealed the deal for them, as well.

By then, I was reading a fair amount of comics from so-called independent publishers, and, as the '90s wore on, indies became the bulk of my buying habits. I still checked back in with Marvel and DC from time to time, but found little had changed. The nadir for me came during the much ballyhooed Death of Superman in 1992. The public ate it up. I saw it for what it was: a cheap publicity stunt. I felt like I had at last woken up and seen that the emperor had no clothes, and I was no longer the least bit interested in pretending that he did.

In more recent years, I've watched from the sidelines as Green Lantern died and returned, Green Arrow died and returned, and Bucky - who had long ago died - returned. Now, I simply yawn when I read that Steve Rogers and Barry Allen are back.

The sad part is that some truly wonderful stories have been told regarding characters who have died. The death of Captain America and its aftermath was very well handled. But the inevitable resurrection only cheapens the story and what his friends went through. It means ultimately that there is no growth for these iconic characters.

Perhaps that's as it should be. After all, lack of growth keeps the characters fresh for the next generation of comics readers and film goers (with increasingly greater emphasis on the latter). But it also means that comics have become cheap, shallow, and pointless artifacts in a culture that celebrates celebrity for celebrity's sake.

Sorry if this post comes off as overly bitter. In the end, comics are merely entertainment, and, as long as a good story can be told (as was the case with Bucky's return), then even death can be overridden. But, for the most part, dead characters should stay dead to avoid cheapening the stories and so comics can be taken in new and unexpected directions.

Jean being brought back was definitely a tipping point in the history of this topic, if not the tipping point. The story in which she died had achieved legendary status during what had become one of comics' definitive runs. Claremont and Byrne were spoken of in awe, and all you had to do was point to X-Men #137 (and the entire Dark Phoenix story) and its perfect beauty to illustrate why this was so.

Sure, Jean was hardly the first to have a temporary death. Off the top of my head Professor X had "died" a time or to. But when you're talking about a death that had served as a benchmark in showing how comics had grown up and were capable of delivering real, palpable change to its characters, then we're really entering a different stratosphere.

I was as X-crazy as I could be at the time Jean was brought back, but having such a great story overturned and undermined really gave me pause. I was only about 15 or 16 when X-Factor came out, but I was really hoping the secret fifth female member would turn out to be someone else. I think, in hindsight, this event was the start of my slow decline out of X-craziness. Sure, I soldiered on several more years afterward, but it was around that point that the stories started being more hit-and-miss for me.

Okay, so she's dead again, I guess. But I've no doubt that she'll return very shortly. Marvel (and DC) just won't be able to help itself. And without a doubt, Jean's returned started a crack in the dam that would slowly expand into a gaping hole before eventually there was pretty much no dam at all.

There are two types of death/rebirth scenarios, one in which the character was intended to be dead when the story was written (Jean, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Jason Todd, etc.) and a more recent trend in which the death is planned as a temporary stunt with a return already plotted (Superman's really kicked this off, with Captain America and Batman being more recent examples).

I'm not sure which is worth, to tell you the truth. Is it worse for some comics new guns to come along and decide to undo what are often classic stories? Or is it worse for the money-grabbing conglomerates to reel us in with the illusion of change for the sake of a few extra bucks? Hard to decide. Both are pretty damn despicable.

I suppose I'd have to go with the former, if pressed. Undoing classic stories is the worse thing you can do to a fanbase that is emotionally invested in them. If it was a "good death", or even a phenomenal one, it should be allowed to stand and be sacrosanct. Barry Allen. Jean Grey. Norman Osborn. These are among those that should've been left alone.

But I'm a hypocrite, I suppose, because I approve of some other resurrections:

Hal Jordan. I was okay with it because his death literally came through assassinating his character. Turning Hal into a psychotic killer was just disrespectful.

Ollie Queen. I'm sorry, but dying in a plane explosion because he refused to sever his arm was just lame. And Ollie lends an important, individual voice among the DC pantheon that is just irreplaceable.

Bucky Barnes. Simply put, it was a great story. This was a character that modern readers never really got to know, and his death occurred in flashback, of all things. Basically, the story of his return was much, much better than the story of his death! How often can you say that about a "reborn" character. Actually, I'm more pissed about Steve Rogers' return because it means that Bucky may be shifted out of the limelight than I am about the reversal itself!

I say, if you're a Marvel or DC, simply just find other stories to tell if you can't let your deaths stick. (DC, at least, has shown us since the issue of Final Crisis immediately after the one showing Batman's "death" that Bruce Wayne isn't dead after all. That cheapens the illusion of change currently going on in the Bat-titles, sure, but at least they're upfront about it and not trying to make us think this is anything other than temporary.) And if you do decide to kill someone off, think it through and stick to your guns. Even the most rabid fan has his limits.

There are always exceptions.

Back in the 1980s, Jim Starlin "killed off" the character of Oedi, the cat man, in an issue of Dreadstar. A few issues later, Oedi pops up alive, but it was clear that Starlin intended for that to happen all along. Oedi had faked his death as part of the storyline. It was an original spin on the whole death and resurrection theme.

Huey, I think part of the problem with comics deaths in general is that many of them were intended to be permanent. Jean Grey. Norman Osborne. Bucky Barnes. Barry Allen. Even Hal Jordan probably. But eventually, someone comes along and decides to undo them for the sake of boosting sales and interest in a comic.

I think the underlying problem here is the perception that there's a general lack of imagination and creativity being shown by recycling ideas, and specifically characters. So if Kyle Rayner and Wally West's comics seem to reach a point where sales start lagging, it's time to bring back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen to reignite interest, rather than try to salvage Kyle and Wally with better stories.

This is reflective of the readership, as well. Superhero fans seem to simultaneously want new and bolder stories while also wanting the same old thing they've been reading since they were kids. That's why we're constantly getting the illusion of change (Batman's "death" and replacement by Dick Grayson being the current illusion), followed by the inevitable restoration of the status quo (everyone knows Bruce will be back eventually).

Hell, superheroes don't even typically keep more minor, cosmetic changes (Thor's beard with Simonson, Spidey's black costume, Aquaman's harpoon hand and accompanying costume, even Hal's grey hair on the temples) for any period of time, so how do we expect death to stick?

I think if the Big Two are to evolve and keep strong, they've got to stop using death as a stunt. Either mean it or don't do it in the first place. I'm skeptical that will ever happen. Not as long as readers keep voting favorably with their dollars.

You're right, Lardy, and it goes back to what I said earlier: Comics are a mainstream form of entertainment meant to rake in the bucks, not tell good (or even passable) stories.

This, of course, brings up the question of what exactly is a "good" story. On this thread , I posed the question, What Makes Comics Fun? A related question is, What Makes Comics Stories Good?

I've been bothered by the resurrection of Barry Allen. He died a hero. He was mourned. Wally stepped up and became The Flash. He struggled with the legacy of his fallen uncle/mentor, and emerged a stronger character.

I read Flash comics when I was a kid, but I never really connected to Barry. Then, in my late teens and early twenties, Wally became my Flash. For a while, in the early '90s, it was my favorite book. To me, bringing Barry back is disrespectful to that era.

It seemed to be fans of that era that pretty much badgered the point to bring him back so I don't see the disrespect at least to Flash fans of that era. I do see negatives to the legend.

My impressions of that character's death are different now. When I reread, I'm not sure I'll recall the same emotions I had to first time. I imagine that I will read those scenes with less emotion, if any emotion.

It does cheapen the whole experience for anyone who read the original Barry Allen Flash.

If you come back to life and there's someone who has taken your place, and very nicely too, maybe you should just write your memoirs and set up a superhero academy.

Leaving Barry dead would enhance the connection to the character for me; it's more real if somebody, especially in a dangerous business, dies once in a while. And, like real life, new generations take that place and put their own imprint on the character. It's a natural process.

Which makes me think of something else - have any superheroes died of cancer, or heart attack, or some non-battle related cause? I seem to recall somebody had a brain tumor but don't know who.

FC:
Captain Marvel (Marvel version) died of cancer. He was a fairly tertiary character at the time, 'though.

John Byrne hinted in the first few issues of Alpha Flight that Northstar had AIDS, but the notion got dropped like a hot potato for quite a few years. He wasn't even officially 'outed' until long after Byrne was off the book.

Betsy Ross Banner died of radiation poisoning, as a result of years of exposure to gamma-irradiated freaks, but that was retconned out, apparently.

In Frank Miller's Dark Knight, Alfred dies at the end of a heart attack, but that's kind of Elseworlds-ish, and he was a supporting character, not a superhero.

For me, the dividing line is whether or not the character had a death that was a meaningful part of that character's story (Jean Grey, Captain Marvel, Barry Allen) or was a gimmick meant to enhance *another* character's story or reputation (anyone who died at the hands of Black Adam or Superboy Prime or when Hal Jordan went nuts or in The Bar With No Name at the hands of Scourge, all deaths that were ultimately meaningless to the characters killed, and only meant to highlight the badassness of their killer).

Jean, Barry and Mar-Vell had death scenes that mattered and were specifically crafted. They weren't cannon-fodder, and reversing their deaths is trashing a good story (and all of the good stories that came afterwards, where people like Emma Frost, Wally West or Genis Vell were introduced and slotted into their roles and developed into new, living, breathing characters).

Tara Markov is another character I want to stay dead. I don't care if another earth-manipulator comes along, and I don't care if that earth-manipulator is a clone of Tara Markov, but I want the original Tara Markov to either stay dead, or, if resurrected, to stay true to her characterization, which was of a deeply disturbed psychotic young woman. (While I would prefer her to stay dead, her brother Geo-Force demonstrated in his first appearance the ability to return from the dead when buried in the earth, drawing power from his connection to the earth to come back to life, so it's not *impossible* for his half-sister's earth-connected powerset to include a similar feature.)

Worse, IMO, is when a dead character is brought back and the people who brought them back don't seem to have a brilliant idea of how to immediately use them. A Tara Markov / Terra is back, and has been farting around doing a hell of a lot of not-much, which makes one wonder, why the hell did they bother to bring her back? Why the hell is Hal or Barry back? What vital role are they filling? What niche do they serve?

If something huge, like the return of Hal Jordan or Barry Allen, must occur, there should be a damn Flash series showcasing that return, and the cosmic significance of it, and his relations with his old family, and any issues faced by slotting back into his old role, which has been filled for *decades* by this point.

It shouldn't happen in some other book and then lie around stinking up the place like an abandoned sock. That's just a disservice to the character, to undo the last signifiant appearance of the character (his death) and have nothing planned to one-up that event.

Exactly. Jean Grey was brought back to do nothing more than fill out the X-Factor lineup of original X-Men. I never read any story with her in it after her return that made me say, "wow, I'm so glad they brought her back because this story was great!" Instead, we got to see Scott Summers abandon his wife and child. Marvel had to make his wife a Goblin Queen and his son Cable to eventually gloss over the abandonment. It was a big slap in the face for those of us who grew to care for Madelyn Prior.
And in the end Scott cheats on Jean with Emma Frost just before Jean dies another supposed (but obviously temporary from what I've heard) death. Ugh.

Norman Osborne? Don't get me started! He was brought back as the deus ex machina to bring the mess that was the Clone Saga to a close. Then there was that horrible Gwen Stacy's kids mess. Now, he's the most important figure in the Marvel Universe? Sorry, he's perfect as Spider-man's foil, but he just doesn't work as Marvel's Big Bad. I don't see his gravitas outside of his personal war with Peter Park, which, by the way, ended in Amazing 122!

Hal and Ollie's returns, however, worked really well for me. One literally had his character assassinated, and the other died in a wtf moment airplane explosion. Hal (and Geoff Johns) brought with him a Green Lantern revival like no other that has pretty much made his title the flagship of the DC Universe. Ollie brought back with him a voice with him that was unparalleled in the DCU among so many wooden personalities. The Kevin Smith stories alone made this worthwhile.

The lesson here: if you're gonna erase a good story, make it count and exceed what you're undoing.

Since things are looking bleak for JLA at the moment (Wein's wonderful fill-ins excepted), I thought it would be nice to talk about our favorite JLA stories.

I chose one of fairly recent vintage, from the controversial Joe Kelly era.

I’m generally not bothered by Joe Kelly’s tendency for self-indulgence, partly because his politics are similar to my own, partly because unlike, say, Mark Millar, he means it, maaaaaaan! That said, it is Kelly’s least political, most traditional super-hero story, that is not only my favorite work of his, but my favorite JLA arc of all time.

The Obsidian Age is one of the few super-hero epics to justify its length, what with time travel, mysticism, a near-apocalypse and THREE super-hero teams.

Now, I know what you’re saying: “How is this more than a padded-out revival of the old JLA/JSA/Et Al team-ups?” And the answer is – characterization. Kelly makes full use of the extra space afforded him to achieve the very thing where even some fans of Grant Morrison’s JLA would admit he came up short. Morrison’s run was Gardner Fox on steroids, whereas Kelly’s Obsidian Age (I’ll get to the rest of Kelly’s run shortly) was a shotgun wedding of Steve Engelhart (JLA and Avengers runs!) and the old Challenge of the Super-Friends cartoon. Amidst all the skillfully presented larger-than-life spectacle, there are tons of great character moments, from Batman’s moment of reluctant vulnerability after his team arrives in Atlantis, Nightwing’s bearing of the leadership burden, Manitou’s gradual change of heart...

Ah, yes, Manitou, the 21st Century Apache Chief, complete with “Inukchuk.” So even when Kelly’s not being political, he’s still self-indulgent.

Yes...and?

Self-indulgence is not necessarily bad when writing super-hero comics, especially team books, as long as the writer deeply believes in what he or she is doing. And Kelly...well, like I already said, he means it, maaaaan! Manitou is presented with such conviction that Kelly not only gets away with it, but justifies it! Manitou was not the new Bloodwynd, he could have been the new Firestorm!

The rest of Kelly’s JLA run (also counting JL Elite) is, in my opinion, a collection of diamonds in the rough. Flawed, certainly, but interesting in ways that JLA has never been before Kelly or after Kelly.

But The Obsidian Age? A classic for the ages.

Runners-up would be all of Wein's issues, all of Englehart's issues, Conway's # 200, and Morrison's "Crisis Times Five" arc, the one time I thought that Morrison really hit the bullseye.

I've read almost every JLA story but out of all the comic runs I've done that with, I always consider the time of my life I was reading those stories as a major influence on my reaction at the time for some reason (as opposed to Spider-Man or Thor, where my opinions of certain eras are very similar now to what they were when I was 14).

For example, I don't really have many fond memories of Joe Kelly's run. In fact, I remember wondering why I was even reading it anymore at the time. Which is odd, because I'm actually quite a fan of Joe Kelly's work--specifically his Superman stuff and his recent Spider-Man/independent stuff. I think maybe I don't like his team interactions.

My JLA stories are usually reflective of the eras they were in:

Bronze Age JLA / JSA
I love the JLA / JSA team-ups in the Bronze Age 1970's, much moreso than the original Silver Age ones. I actually think the Silver Age JLA stories by Gardner Fox are the weakest and most formulaic of all of Fox's work. And Fox was definitely a formulaic type of author—Adam Strange and Hawkman showcase that almost as much as the JLA. But with those stories, the mystery and intrigue was part of the reason for checking out the stories in the first place; with the JLA, you’d expect some really cool interactions would take place between these heroes and usually that wasn’t the case. Still, the JLA/JSA team-ups of the Silver Age were better than most JLA stories, but it wasn’t until several years into the title’s existence that things got really awesome. It was a combination of better writing in terms of dialogue and character interaction (the pacing and antagonists were always pretty good) and introduction of “third elements” that made it for me. The best ones IMO of that era were: The Aquarius / Death of Larry Lance story; the Seven Soldiers of Victory and the Freedom Fighters. Most of the other ones were equally as good but those are my three favorites. They are about as perfect as a team-up story could possibly be.

Justice League International
Funny how this has become a controversial era given the characters treatment in recent years, but I still believe there is no denying that the Giffen/DeMatteis/MacGuire run was one of the best JLA eras of all time. My father, a pro-Silver Age reader if there ever was one, has told me many times that this was the best the JLI ever was. I agree it was that good, and in particular it was the first 12 issues that showcase this. Those first 12 issues had something additional the rest of the run did not: balance. It was funny, and it was a buddy comic, but it also had some poignant moments, some incredibly intense and suspenseful moments, and a larger sense of seriousness. Later on, the JLI / JLE would become *too* cute for its own good and I can see why some readers didn’t like this (my father agrees when Beetle started gaining weight, he was long gone as a reader). Giffen did several things really good in addition to what he’s known for: he used global-political conflict as a great background for his stories, much like Ostrander was doing at the time in Firestorm and Suicide Squad; he brought together eras and universes previously never really seen together on a recurring basis and made it seamless (Charlton, Fawcett, Golden Age, Modern, New Gods, new characters, old characters); and he interacted with the rest of the DCU on his terms. It was truly a great era.

Post-Giffen JLA/JLE runs
When I was about 13-14, I began reading comics off the stands rather than just piles of back-issues from the Silver Age and 1970’s. I eventually would start reading every DC and Marvel title, but some of the very first were the JLA and JLE, right after the “Breakdowns” arc ended that era and both runs had great starting points. I still look fondly on those issues and think both titles were very good and very easy to jump into. The JLA had Superman and Dan Jurgens basically coming into Giffen’s old League and restoring some seriousness to it; the JLE brought in several Silver Age Icons like GL (Hal), Flash, Elongated Man, Aquaman, Batman (the first few issues) and then combining them with the heroines of the then recent times, Power Girl, Dr. Light and Crimson Fox. I thought that mix worked wonderfully, a combination of the Iconic Age and the Modern Era. That particular time at DC was incredibly interesting with Eclipso Annuals (which I thought was well done), Hal vs. Guy and Guy going off in another direction (which for a 14 year old, was so exciting), and then Doomsday. It all seemed to just really kick ass…up until Parallax and the end of the JLE’s good stories, a third “Task Force” comic that never worked, and Jurgen’s exit and the JLA becoming a mish-mosh of bad stories, heroes with no purpose and probably the very worst era in JLA history (Overlord? I dare you to suggest otherwise!) But for a brief spell, the Justice League comics really kicked ass! There was also an excellent JSA comic that ran 10 issues during this era and those three (along with my constantly reading Crisis every few months) introduced me to the rest of the DCU whom I didn’t recognize from the Silver Age.

There are more but I’ll stop for now. Great topic, Stealth!

I didn't read the League stories til Morrison restarted the group. I can think of a handful of stories (the cross-over with HAWKMAN & GUY GARDNER:WARROR) prior to that, but nothing to create an opinon.

Morrison's era was part of the big budget, blockbuster, wide-screen, HD movement. It was the DC doing the Ultimates before Millar did the Ultimates, the Authority that begot Elli's Authority. With 6 out of the 7 inital cast members having their own books, it wasn't about character development but action and adventure. Mind you, we got moments that defined/summed up each of our heroes; and when the cast expanded, Grant managed to gives us a peek of The Huntress or Big Barda between all the explosions and lightshows.

Grant did a great job of working within the shared universe that was DC. This was the League for the 90's (at the time, new and full of possibilities.) We saw Wally, Kyle, Connor, and Oracle come into their own as members of the hero community. This wasn't nostalgia, but rather continuing the adventures of DC's heroes, moving them towards the future. (My love of DC's new blood makes me a little biased here I think.)

Waid's run was a nice mix of adventure and psuedo scence. A brief run, it felt more of a placeholder than a true era. The stories were more about the characters' interactions than about their adventures. As charming as it was, it never had the excitement for me that Grant brought previously. Even when Waid filled in for Grant, his stories then seemed more energetic.

Kelly's turn was a good mix of Grant's and Mark's stories. It ran hot and cold for me. I didn't care for the Bruce/Diana suggestion (Wondy gets another new flame,) but it was a sub-plot Kelly handled well and carried for a bit. The Obsidian Age was all kinds of crazy fun, and Trial By Fire was a perfect example of Kelly's run. His single issue stories were a mixed bunch- the Plas/Bats team up was great, the Supes/Luthor parallel of current politics felt hamfisted. His work with Major Disater was fun and interesting (and I wish he got time to play with him more.) Faith was annoying from the start. Kelly's run was enjoyable, but it wasn't memorable.

We'll skip Carlin's every-writer-has-a-League-story fiasco. I truly think that killed the JLA more than any infinite crises could.

The Justice League of America relaunch I've been reading in trade form, so I'm still a bit behind on it. Meltzer was too short to give any real impact, and McDuffie has been too distracted to give any cohesive judgement.

Cobie, I look forward to your thoughts on the Morrison era and beyond, but more importantly, your post has awakened my curiosity enough to give JLI a second chance, even given my general distaste for Giffen. I've requested all four available trades from my library, and I'll share my thoughts on them as I read them. And I hope that maybe my post awakened your curiosity enough to give The Obsidian Age a second chance (glad to hear you like The Obsidian Age, CJ.)

Interestingly enough, as big of a DC guy as I am, I haven't really had the most extensive JLA experience on my resume. The only two eras that I bought the title longterm were during the JLI Giffen/DeMatteis era and the Morrison/Porter run.

Why the JLA hasn't pulled me in consistently is difficult to nail down, but generally (with the above two exceptions) I'd say that JLA often just didn't seem to matter as a title within the larger DCU. It was often just an excuse to put the biggest draws in the DCU into one title with what seemed very little of consequence happening in and of itself. Obviously, there are exceptions, particularly the importance of the JSA crossovers to the DCU's mythology, but there's usually the sense that if you skip JLA you aren't really missing anything. More often than not, what happens in JLA is never even referenced in, say, Batman's books or Superman's books.

If you compare JLA to Marvel's Avengers, I'd say there's a big difference. In my opinion the Avengers has always told stories that mattered and that have become iconic. Obviously, some eras are better regarded than others, but nearly every incarnation has at least yielded something memorable.

I'd say the difference is founded in leeway with character development. Usually, the JLA is stocked with the "Big Guns" who can only be players in the story and can't have really life-changing things happen to them when that's being saved for their own titles.

Avengers at its best mixes their Big Guns with more secondary characters like Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Beast, Wasp, Hank Pym, etc. who can't support their own titles and provide awesome subplot-dovetailing-to-uberplot fodder for character development. Hell, even Thor, Iron Man and Cap tend to have moments and events happen in the Avengers comic that are reflected in their own books or at least enhance their characters with superb roleplaying.

The JLI era got around the usual JLA limitation by predominantly featuring second, third and fourth-tier characters who were late of their own cancelled series or had never had one of their own. Giffen and DeMatteis could do whatever the hell they wanted with them and chose to use that power to work on giving them all distinct personalities. It was a fun, unique experience that had me coming back every month first and foremost to see what these characters would be up to. And when they did use characters like Batman, they used them wisely and gave us priceless moments like his "one punch" of Guy Gardner and his mission "disguised" as Bruce Wayne.

I loved the JLI era a lot and let my then-girlfriend/future-wife borrow the early issues because I knew she would enjoy the humor. I do think it became severely diluted and began to slowly die with Kevin Maguire's departure and the arrival of JLE. Even then, it had its moments and will always be remembered fondly by me.

Morrison fully embraced the Big Guns philosophy and proved that in the hands of a talented enough writer, that approach could definitely work. The Shit was constantly hitting the fan, and Morrison knew how to throw big, impressive threats at these characters, enough to keep readers hanging by the edges of their seats.

Interspersed in Morrison's run were takes on the icons that were very influential. Foremost was Batman as The Man! Never had Batman seemed more badass, even as a normal human among people with godlike powers. For once a take on an icon in the JLA book actually influenced the main books! Of course, many would say that that has been taken too far over the intervening years. But for better or worse, it really mattered, and that was something that JLA rarely did.

As impressive as Morrison was, his stuff did feel distant for me and left me a little cold. There was so much BIG! STORY! going on that I feel Morrison didn't really take the time to emotionally invest readers in the characters. The Tomorrow Woman story was a nice exception, but overall the emotional impact of the adventures was negligible. But the quality of stories was always high and worth your hard-earned money.

I'll post more on JLA soon and highlight some particular stories from other eras and maybe hit these two a little more...

Interesting comparison between JLA and Avengers, Lardy, and, for the most part, I agree, even though I was a huge JLA fan for many years.

There's just something cool about "big guns" like Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Wonder Woman being part of the same organization, where they are peers. This type of relationship is not found in their regular books, where each is a star.

Of course, the JLA was different from most other super-teams in that it was treated like a professional organization and not a club. The Avengers had this distinction as well, but their stories often developed from the personal relationships of the characters (e.g., the Wanda/Vision/Mantis/Swordsman quadrangle); the JLA was strictly professional: Its members kept their private lives out of the book.

There were exceptions of course, such as the Green Arrow/Hawkman feud or the GA/Black Canary romance. If anything, the JLA could have used more of these types of interactions as sometimes the characters did seem too distant, too uninvolved in the stories.

There were also occasional instances in which JLA membership became important in a character's own comic. When Wonder Woman sought to rejoin the JLA, her former teammates monitored her Hercules-like tests in her series. The rarity of such instances, however, furthered the professional attitude of these characters: They were capable, independent heroes. Working together or being influenced by events in the group book called for a special occasion indeed.

My favorite Justice League of America story is called “The Man Who Murdered Santa Claus”. I bought it right before Christmas in 1973 when I was nine years old. It was probably only the second or third JLA issue I ever read. It was the lead story in the first of the 100 page spectacular issues. I remember being out of school for Christmas break and staying with my dad for the day. He was the postmaster of a small rural Missouri town. It was snowing and I was hanging out on a blanket by the radiator in the old one room post office. He gave me some money and I ran across the street to the drug store to purchase the comic, which kept me entertained for the rest of the day.

The story was written by Len Wein and drawn by Dick Dillin. It was fun and horrifying all at the same time. It opened with Superman and Batman getting ready to take a dime store Santa to an orphan’s Christmas party. There was an explosion and the Santa was killed. He died with a key in his hand, wrapped in mistletoe with a note attached that was full of clues. We got glimpses of how the Leauguers were spending Christmas eve – Flash in the future, Elongated Man scuba diving with his wife. Hal Jordan slipped in the shower and knocked himself out as he attempted to answer Superman and Batman’s call. The ring sought out John Stewart to substitute as the Green Lantern for the adventure. This was my first exposure to Stewart and, to this day, my favorite appearance of his.

The clue led the League to St. Louis, where much of the action took place. The team had a conversation on top of the Gateway Arch. That made the story even more relatable to me. St. Louis was only a couple of hours from my home. I had been there and seen the arch on special occasions. It was a thrill thinking that these super heroes were so close to home.

Much of the story focused on Green Arrow and Black Canary trying to teach Red Tornado the meaning of Christmas, and Stewart trying to prove himself to the League. The villain was the Key. It appeared as if everyone was dead but the Phantom Stranger mysteriously appeared, saved the day, and then disappeared. In the epilogue, Black Canary gave Red Tornado a new costume as a Christmas present. Amazing stuff. I was already familiar with Superman and Batman, and I’m sure was drawn to the cover by their images. I finished the story as a fan of Green Arrow, Black Canary, Red Tornado and John Stewart. I was intrigued by this Phantom Stranger guy. That’s what the League has represented to me since then. A place to enjoy a good story with comfortable faces while making new friends along the way.

The fun didn’t stop there, though. The issue also contained a Justice Society reprint. It was my first exposure to them, and that story remains one of my favorite JSA stories. It also reprinted Zatanna’s first guest appearance with the JLA. What a treat. And yet another character that I met for the first time that afternoon and ended up loving for life.

I loved the satellite era - especially when drawn by Perez! JLI was also a lot of fun.

I forgot about this story, but it is a classic! Thanks for the memories, Jerry.

I started reading the JLA a few issues earlier, with # 107--the first half of the JLA/JSA team-up that reintroduced the Freedom Fighters. Like you and the 100-Page Spectacular (# 110, if memory serves), this story introduced me to a plethora of heroes I'd never heard of before: Uncle Sam, the Ray, the Human Bomb (FF), Hourman (JSA), and Red Tornado and Black Canary (JLA), among others. For that reason, it stands out as one of my favorites although, in hindsight, it was probably no better or worse than stories that came before or after. The stories that have been most meaningful to me tend to be stories I read when I was very young, when the whole comics experience was brand new.

Two issues later, Hawkman left--which I regarded as one of the worst comics I ever read at the time. At the age of nine, I was not prepared for real-world changes in comic book heroes. But I think that issue and concurrent events happening in LSH (the wedding of Chuck and Lu, the death of Lyle) helped me understand that even heroes were not above change. (Besides, Hawkman returned a mere eight issues later, in a story far less memorable.)

You know, I just read this story for the first time about three years ago, when I was rereading the late Silver Age / early 1970’s run of JLA. I also thought it was a terrific story, and a great example of a done in one tale that was dynamic, exciting and at moments very poignant. Its Len Wein at his finest. You can basically dig through so many of his 1970’s stories—so often done in one or two-parters, and find some real gems (at DC or Marvel). I also love the use of John Stewart here and think it must have been very exciting to see that when the issue came off the stands. Of course, at this point Green Arrow, Black Canary and Red Tornado were just so engaging to read about. All three were peaking at this point in their publication history from a creative perspective IMO, even though none had their own solo series!

Glad you’re checking out the JLI stories, Stealth! I think you’ll be impressed, at least for the early issues of the run.

As for my opinion of the “JLA” ages, here they are. By this point I was actively reading JLA off the stands along with every other DC comic being published those days, and had been for several years.

The Morrison Era
This was my first exposure to Grant Morrison that caused me to check and see his name (I realized I read some of his more obscure work earlier). It subsequently led me to check out his Doom Patrol, Animal Man, etc. And the reason is, I was completely and utterly blown away by how awesome the Morrison JLA stories were. It was everything that comics were not at that point in time: full-on action and drama, problems on a scale almost incomprehensible and all the major players pitching in. It was kind of like taking a Jack Kirby approach to the traditional JLA-type line-up, but doing so in the modern era and making no apologies for it. And it was awesome. The initial White Martian storyline is one the great JLA storylines of all time, and it has just about every type of great action / suspense / mystery / adventure aspect of comic books in four issues. And it set the stage of what was to come: Morrison taking the over the top science-fiction of the Silver Age or the incredibly dramatic mysteries of the Golden Age and doing them in yet a whole new way. I loved it.

As for the JLAers themselves, it was like a breath of fresh air to see the “Big 7” again, and yet it was the Big 7 of that particular era, including Kyle Rayner (and briefly Conner Hawke). Morrison took the PAD-Aquaman, whom was serious, regal and brooding and firmly entrenched that personality into Aquaman’s role in the JLA. He was no longer a joke here; he was pretty much a potential other leader that could command Superman and Batman. Lardy already mentioned Morrison’s effect on Batman, and it was truly awe-inspiring to behold. I also think Morrison was able to inject more life and personality into Kyle-GL than anyone else in the 90’s; I read every single issue with Kyle as GL and they were often boring and whiney with not much happening; here, Morrison had him doing things. When Morrison later added several others to the mix, it made things even larger scale than before, particularly with Zauriel, Orion and Barda. I also liked that he incorporated Steel as a big gun—Steel being yet another major character of the 1990’s. I also found Huntress’s inclusion interesting, including her dismissal by Batman at the close. And of course, it was truly Grant Morrison who made Plastic Man popular again for the first time since the 1940’s. Plas has become associated with the JLA pretty much as well as any of the Silver Age members (not just Ralph but any of them) and that’s because of Grant. It made me a fan of the character for the first time, even though it was a gradual, begrudging process. Grant also had a great issue with the Atom that I loved.

The major criticism that can be wagered against Morrison is the lack of character moments in the series. That’s understandable to a degree but not quite true. For example, Flash, GL and Aquaman in the Rock of Ages storyline had some subtle character moments throughout, interacting with one another, even if it wasn’t Earth-shattering stuff. If anything, I think Morrison (in his kooky comics as a living breathing history persona) was simply following the Gardner Fox approach to JLA: story over characterization. Just like his X-Men was the polar opposite. After all, there is no middle ground with Grant.

So yeah, I loved it. Is it my favorite era of all time? Well, no, but I wouldn’t complain if he became ongoing writer of JLA again.

The Mark Waid Era
A strange thing happened in the 1990’s/ early part of this decade. Mark Waid, who was basically one of the great writers of the 1990’s and someone whose name on a cover could almost guaranty me reading it right away, became a writer whose work I increasingly began to dislike. And it might have actually happened when he took over JLA. To back up, I’ll reiterate I loved Waid’s stuff, particularly his Flash work. When he stepped in for Grant and did the Adam Strange story in the late teens of JLA, I was floored by how excellent it was. One of the best JLA/Adam Strange stories of all time. He then did a story about numbers and luck, with the Atom guest-starring and it was equally as good. Just damn good comics that made me think between Grant and Waid, the DCU was experiencing a “Great Recovery” after years of annoyingly-bad stories across the board. But when Waid took over for Grant and slimmed the membership back down to tell more personal, character-driven stories…well, it basically was boring.

It wasn’t terrible by any means. But something was lost and it was incredibly noticeable. It had lost the excitement factor; the tension; the edge of your seat feeling. It was like a stud horse going lame. And it was noticeable almost immediately. Kyle became whiney again. Aquaman became a background player. Martian Manhunter became “good ol’ J’onn J’onnz, heart and soul of the JLA…yawn…’scuse me while I’m bored to tears”. And then Batman went from being the most effective and badass hero of them all to being just a plain asshole. Because much like Marvel’s greatest failures of *this* decade, a good writer will do something extreme with a character and another writer will try to follow-up but do it in an even more extreme way—or worse, do it without the original essence used—and it just doesn’t work. And all the good Morrison had done with Batman helped take the “Batman is a guy that doesn’t play with others” and turned it into “Batman is a Dick”. By the time Waid left, all of the hoopla surrounding the JLA was gone; the title had basically been deflated to what it was prior to Morrison.

The Joe Kelly Era
Perhaps I will give this a second try based on comments in this thread. And perhaps because Waid was such a letdown after Morrison, it was unfair to Joe Kelly to step in and in the sense of many readers such as me, be given the responsibility to ‘get this ship back on course’. To be honest, I don’t so much remember the actual stories (other than the bigger ones) but I remember scenes and characters. For example, I think Kelly’s strongest usage was with Plastic Man, and Kelly took what Grant started and made Plas even more endearing, even giving him a cool relationship with Batman that made me wish he could do some Brave and Bold stories with the two. He also did a great job with some other random characters, like Jason Blood, that I thought was cool. But on the other hand, I found Faith extremely annoying and I hated his usage of Green Arrow and Hawkgirl which just rang so false to me. I did, however, also find Manitou Raven to be really interesting, and I really liked Dawn, his wife—and was interested afterwards to see her continue on as Manitou Dawn after Raven’s death. I found the Obsidian Age to be exciting, remember thinking it was dragging on too long. Of course, Kelly was trying to find an exciting and interesting way to restore Aquaman and Atlantis back to life after they so stupidly were destroyed in the awful Our Worlds at War miniseries. Major Disaster coming on was something I initially thought was cool but ultimately began to wonder why he even bothered.

I’m a fan of Joe Kelly’s work, and lately in a big way. I first became so because I thought his run on Action Comics was really ground-breaking at the time, and in fact think Action #775 is probably the best Superman story in the last 20 years. However, his X-Men work was pretty lackluster, and I never read his Deadpool stuff. Cut to the modern era, where I think his Spider-Man stuff is the absolute best Amazing Spider-Man material being produced; and his independent work such as Four Eyes is really unique and well-done. I even met Joe Kelly in San Diego when I was a little too embarrassed to bother him and Caliente decided I was being really geeky and shy and forced me to push my way into the line and say hi, using her charms to distract him to come over and talk to me and then we took a picture together. It was really cool.

But his JLA run never was something that jumped out at me. Then again, maybe that second look is all it will take. Especially without the Waid stuff in my mind beforehand and without me being at college and being all distracted his time.

Post Joe Kelly, every writer has a JLA story
Failure. The Denny O’Neal gorilla story was almost the worst JLA story ever—until the John Byrne Doom Patrol one. Awful. Cancellation was indeed imminent.

Crisis of Conscience
Enter Geoff “don’t let the internet fool you, I’m really as good as people say I am” Johns, and the best JLA story to be published in years. Sure, Identity Crisis created all kinds of terrible retcons in JLA history that were designed to shock and awe you, much like an George Bush era press release (in other words, if you like Identity Crisis, I’m actually comparing you to being one of Dick Cheney’s interns). But Geoff came in and added some characterization; some sense of progress and understanding; dynamics and excitement; Red Tornado being awesome again; Zatanna having a point of view (wow, who’d have thunk it?), and so many other things. Not only did Geoff use the classic line-up, he did it in the vacuum of modern events—and he did it well! Too bad it was just one story-arc and it led into Infinite Crisis and beyond. Because it sure was exciting.

Justice League of America #200 was my very first super-hero comic and remains to this day my favourite comic of all time.

From back-issue bins (which is how I got all my comics back then) I was able to get a complete run of that series from around issue #85 or so on and about 50% of the issues before that too.

The JLA thus became my first favourite property in comics (and Green Arrow my first favourite hero).

To say I've got opinions about how this great team has been handled over the years would be an understatement but I unfortunately don't have the time at the moment to give this topic the attention it deserves.

So, for now, I'm gonna end this post with a TO BE CONTINUED...

Hope you're able to share your opinions soon, Blacula.

Meanwhile, my library's website informs me that JLI Vols 2 & 3 have arrived, so I'll pick them up tomorrow.

As promised, here are my thoughts on the first three volumes of JLI:

What I liked -- Fire, Ice, and Big Barda, although they don't fully compensate for the appaling portrayals of Black Canary and Dr. Light II in the early issues; that said, the first three issues were probably the ones I enjoyed the most, thanks to a well-balanced and semi-serious tone and good use of obscure characters (Avengers analogs from the Silver Age); Batman's line "The only person really qualified to command an International League is the only one of us who really sees this planet as a unified whole -- and that's you, J'onn," made me smile, as did Batman's portrayal in general, which only underlines how much of a smug jerk he was under Morrison; J'onn's portrayal was good, too, and Mark Waid went on to draw on J'onns slyly dry sense of humor here for "JLA: Year One"; and I found Rocket Red very likable, although some of his dialogue was a bit too Yakov Smirnoff; overall, I can see where this series infulenced later works that I liked, such as Peter David's "X-Factor", and I give it credit for that.

Now, having said that...

What I didn't like -- I've always hated Booster Gold and the Post-Englehart/Pre-Johns incarnation of Guy Gardner, and these stories didn't change my mind; I don't like Blue Beetle, either, although he was tolerable before Booster showed up; as the series goes on, the jokes get piled on thicker and thicker with an increasingly heavy hand; books like this walk a fine line, and I think most of the time it falls on the wrong side of that line; there's a lack of verve and a lack of urgency which are frustrating, and the stories tend to peter out rather than climax.

In the end, I can see where this series must have seemed refreshing in the context of the late 80s (something Giffen notes in his surprisingly honest and self-deprecating introduction to the first volume), but now that irony is the rule rather than the exception, it just seems like another super-hero book.

I'm actually surprised, Stealth, that you let my JLA/Avengers comparison & contrast (from the previous page) go without comment, as you are such an ardent fan of both franchises! Could it be you overlooked that post?

Anyhoo, pre-JLI, there are three JLA stories that stand out in my (admittedly limited) JLA reading history, and both feature teamups with JSA:

The first was drawn by George Perez (before I had any idea who that was!) and featured individual members from both teams being picked off by the Secret Society of Super Villains and being taken to limbo to power some kind of contraption. I haven't read the story in ages (and don't even own it because I sold all my DC's to buy more X-Men when I was around 12! ). Nice story just bursting with rich DC history!

I also read that Santa Claus story in one of those digests. I remember a lot of the details, like the Key and John Stewart, etc., but I can't remember for the life of me what the outcome was! I guess the Key killed the guy?!?!

Anyhow, that's just about ALL that stands out for me about any JLA in my spotty reading history before Giffen, DeMatteis and Maguire came aboard.

My two favorite JLA stories are the first two volumes of Grant's run, with the Hyperclan, the Key, and Zauriel's first appearance.

Lardi, I didn't overlook the post, I just felt that this thread should stay focused on the JLA, especially since JLA-super-fan Blacula hasn't shared his thoughts yet.

Glad to hear you like # 200 and the Seven Soldiers of Victory/JLA/JSA team-up, as I like them too. Have you read the recent JLA 80-Page Special? At first I felt it was too much of a rehash of 7SoV/JLA/JSA, but after discussing it with Cobie in the JLA ongoing thread, I've come to feel that even it's a ripoff, at least it rips off a really good story.

And seeing as you mentioned # 200 and the JLA/JSA vs. SSoSV story, a couple other stories from the Gerry Conway/George Perez era -- the JLA/JSA/New Gods team-up* and the Origin of Red Tornado -- are both in my JLA Top 40.


*Can't forget to mention that the first chapter was Dick Dillin's final JLA issue (R.I.P.)

I loved the Origin of Red Tornado story,I remember Firestorm(Ronnie)playing a big part in it.

Please don't let me inhibit discussion in this thread Stealth.

I'm stuck working on my parents' farm at the moment and won't have access to my JLA collection or much time to think/write about it until I get back up to Perth in a couple of weeks.

Hopefully I'll be able to pop in a quick aside about the JLA during whatever you're talking about then.

I will quickly add though that I also loved that 'Origin of the Red Tornado' story. One of my favourite stories from what is probably my favourite period in JLA history.

Okay, Blacula, but I hope you'll still share JLA thoughts sometime in the future, if not in this thread, than in the official JLA thread.

I agree for the most part on the JLA/Avengers comparisons, in fact the Big Guns philosophy was precisely why it took me so much longer to appreciate the JLA whereas I took to the Avengers straightaway, like a duck to water.

I feel like JLI missed the opportunity to play these B- and C-List characters straight and unearth their hidden potential. For example, Captain Atom, visually striking and powerful enough to compete with the Big Guns if written right, was instead played as a complete idiot. This probably also hurt his (IMO underrated) solo book, which surely was counter-productive to DC's unstated goal of using the JLA to promote characters and elevate them. J'onn, Reddy, and Ronnie all benefitted from their JLA exposure, but the JLI roster ended up turning into a sitcom ensemble, to the detriment of the individual characters.

I loved Captain Atom in his solo book, but loathed the way he was presented in Justice League books. Other heroes that, IMO, suffered from campy or one-note characterization include powerhouse Martian Manhunter (who's like a shapeshifting Superman with a dash of Phoenix!), Booster Gold and the Blue Beetle. Fire and Ice were presented as bimbos. The Red Rockets as a bad joke. Guy Gardner, who was always an unlikable ass, was the only character that felt like he was being portrayed correctly.

It also felt, to me, like the writers had no idea how to write a female character. Blue Beetle, Manhunter, Booster, etc. were established male characters, some with their own books, but Fire, Ice and Doctor Light 2.0 seemed like two-dimensional cutouts of female characters, with Kimiyo, in particular, seeming to be the 'token bitchy girl.'

The occasional attempt at being 'funny' by dropping the shocking reveal that Martian Manhunter likes Oreos wasn't worth it, IMO.

The Giffen/DeMatties/Maguire era has to rule as my favorite of JLA eras.

I'm with Lash on this one. The first 12 - 13 issues are some of the most rereadable issues of the Justice League for me. There's good action, bickering, and humor.

Sure not all of the personalities are 100% on target, but the overall tone was unbelievable. The initial Booster/Beetle relationship in Paris were a hoot. The manipulations of Max (before being transformed into a robot/evil mastermind.

J'onn having a dry humor, and learning to love Oreos...not CHOCOS or whatever stupid thing they call them now.

I also have a soft spot for the JLofA Ultraa saga. Remember reading this way back before I was really into comics.

Sorry, just need to point out my frustration

Care to elaborate, Lash? (this thread's kinda ALL about elaborating! )

Okay, what was wrong with J'Onn's JLI-era characterisation? Seriously, I don't see that he was particularly "campy or one-note" at any point.

Neither do I. In fact, he was probably fleshed out more in JLI than his entire 30 years of prior history at that point. He had been a one note character in his original Detective appearances and JLA appearances from the 50's all the way until JLDetroit, and it only then that we really learned anything about him. JLI took some of that and really expanded on it. The run provided some more in depth underestanding of some of his well-known aspects today: the sense of isolation; a tender-caring fatherly approach to several of the less powerful and newer JLAers; the "heart and soul of the JLA" idea; the enjoyment he takes in humanity's quirks, including people's sense of humor (and his attempts to understand it).

Here's what I remember of the JLI's characterizations throughout the issues I read, and I certainly didn't read the entire run;

Booster and Beetle hung out together and were comic relief, not interacting as much with the others.

Fire and Ice hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.

Mister Miracle and Big Barda hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.

Martian Manhunter went off by himself a lot, avoiding the others, and expressing bewilderment or even exasperation (I remember this as the era of 'short-tempered J'Onn') at their antics and shenanigans.

Guy Gardner antagonized everyone, including the normally unflappable Captain Marvel and J'Onn.

Captain Marvel seemed utterly clueless, and the butt of Gardner's snarky cracks, like Billy Batson wearing his dad's clothes and not at all like a supremely confident elder statesman among heroes with the 'wisdom of Solomon.'

Doctor Light seemed to hold most of the rest of the team in contempt, and the feeling seemed to be returned.

Red Rocket was comic relief, being a stange pastiche of a bad Russian cliche (like Chekov, but even more over the top) and a drunken Irishman, until he died and stopped being funny.

With the factions of Booster/Beetle, Miracle/Barda and Fire/Ice, and a bunch of other moody 'don't play well with others' sorts, alongside a perplexed Captain Marvel, it felt more like Justice League: 90210, full of bitchy cliques that didn't much like each other, than a superhero team.

I don't remember really well (since all of those comics got sold off years ago during a house-moving / 'everything must go' spree), but I believe that this era was the one that turned Captain Atom from a likable character in his own book into an overbearing jerk in the Justice League.

The only character that I think got boosted by her appearance would be the Black Canary, who finally was portrayed as a confident senior League veteran (who also came across as a bit flummoxed by the shenanigans of the newbies, IIRC), and not as 'Green Arrow's crimefighting appendage.'

And welcome back to the Roundtable!

Now, forgive me if this topic starts sounding more like "Lardy's Soapbox" than a Roundtable, but I hope it'll lead to some stimulating conversation as a jumping-off point. Here goes:

I have kind of a Reverse-Cobie thing going on with my comics experience. While Cobie has been openly expressing his discontent with DC's creative direction of late, I've generally been enjoying DC's stuff (or what I read of it) quite a bit lately. On the other hand, Marvel has been generally leaving me cold lately. So cold that I'm seriously considering dropping pretty much every Marvel title from my pull list! Why? (time for a numbered list of reasons--YAY!)

1) The $3.99 price point is being pushed down our throats pretty much without any perks. I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again--love or hate DC's extra features, at least all of their $3.99 books have extra content for your extra buck. Very few of Marvel's do. Plus, they've pretty much foregone launching any new books or miniseries at the $2.99 price. All those new Avengers books coming this summer? All $3.99.

It's not that I refuse to buy any comic for $3.99 with normal content. It's just that Marvel's way of doing it is really pissing me off. I respect DC's handling of it. They could easily take Marvel's route here, but they're not. Heck, they're even dropping the extra dollar on titles when the co-feature leaves! Eventually, I know they'll all go up, too, but I appreciate what DC's approach has been.

2) I know it's all apparently ending now, but Dark Reign was a HUGE turn-off for me. Love or hate DC's recent big events, their storylines didn't absolutely permeate their entire line MORE THAN ONE WHOLE DAMN YEAR!!! Blackest Night may have seemed all-encompassing, but its tie-ins were mostly in either self-contained minis, the two GL books and a handful of books that could really use the sales boost. Absolutely NO intrusion on such great runs as JMS's B&B, Rucka & William's Batwoman, Morrison's Batman and Robin, Superman's New Krypton storyline, etc.

If you couldn't give a crap about Norman Osborne, HAMMER and all of that wretched storyline, well Marvel said, "Tough shit, bitch! Eat it!" At this point, I don't CARE that it's finally coming to a close. I checked out long ago!

3) The cancelling/relaunching of too many of my favorites. Iron Fist was a huge loss. Hercules is ending (yeah, there's a follow-up with Amadeus Cho). Nova and the Guardians of the Galaxy are apparently going on "hiatus" during the upcoming "Thanos Imperative" event (even money says if those books are relaunched afterward, they'll be $3.99). X-Factor's about to be forced back into whatever asinine X-over's going on.

The past two years I've gravitated towards the few books that didn't seem enslaved by Marvel's editorial imperatives. Slowly but surely, each of those are being pulled from under my nose.

4) I'm losing interest in some books that have been "old reliables" for me. Cap and Daredevil come readily to mind.

With Cap I think Ed Brubaker's running out of steam. Cap Reborn was really pretty underwhelming for such a 'big event'. And the issues since the numbering resumed? Blech! This "Two Americas" storyline's gotta be the biggest stinker by a MILE in Ed's resume. And the Nomad backup (which despite at least being one of Marvel's few attempts to give you something for the extra dollar) is pretty crappy and, tonally, is an awkward complement to the main feature.

Daredevil? After a promising start to Diggle's run, DD's going nowhere fast. The direction of DD crossing morally shady eras was filled with promise, but so far, Diggle's taking the path of least resistance in his approach. A lot of safe choices, I'd say. And this is a slooooow moving tale, which will only get slower as DD's going bi-monthly for awhile. Sorry, but I'm unlikely to be patient with it, despite some terrific artwork.


So here I am on the precipice of telling my comic book guy to dump virtually everything. The only things I'm a lock to keep getting are Brubaker's Criminal and Incognito series. I'll also likely finish out the current Punisher Max arc and maybe beyond with the solid creative team of Jason Aarons and Steve Dillon. Everything else may be expendable. If I push the button, I'll get only the occasional Marvel trade or back issue--secondhand and for below retail if at all possible so as not to benefit Marvel directly from my purchases.

What would I do with the money not spent on Marvel's? Well, I doubt I'll buy less comics! Instead, it'll free up my budget to buy more DC's, more Vertigos and to sample and discover new indie comics!

Thoughts on any or all of my points? Facing similar or different crises in your comics-reading habits? Perfectly happy with everything?

Well, let the Roundtable spin!

I'll engage in the conversation though I know you kind of know where I stand (and hope others weigh in as well).

A couple of comments:

- Absolutely no defense for $3.99. That's just plain annoying.

- All those books that got canceled or are on hiatus (which I also love) are from sales, not because of editorial edicts. I wish fandom would wake up and buy them too.

- I posted elsewhere that I thought Siege is better than Blackest Night. I stand by that. Now, I don't think either was the greatest thing ever, however, neither was that bad. But Blackest Night could have been told in 4 issues considering the entire middle seemed to go at a snails place without an iota of character moments (and to steal one of your phrases, was "Geoff Johns porn"). Siege at least is a pure 4 issue extravangza--every page has something for it. Plus the emotional impact we were supposed to have felt close to worthless to me (two scenes notwithstanding) because all of DC's crap these past few years have desensitized me to it.

- New Avengers is better than any single DC superhero team out there right now. The only one coming close is Doom Patrol but its not there yet. And New Avengers is by no means my favorite Marvel Comic. But it gets a bad rap and I figured I'd make at least one statement to anger *someone*.

- I think right now, Marvel is a better company than DC. I'm glad they beat them sales-wise because DC doesn't deserve to be #1. I like a ton of DC titles and I dislike several Marvel titles, but when it gets right down to it, the only company that is inciting my ire on a weekly basis is DC Comics and here are my reasons: Outsiders, Teen Titans, Titans, JSA & All-Stars, Power Girl, Magog, Cry for Justice. Lian Harper. DAN DIDIO.

Marvel is no saint by any means. And in fact, I think the Vertigo offices of DC, Image Comics, Dark Horse and Dynamite are all much more respectable comic book companies more inclined to acquiesce to some real creative integrity without being beholden to shareholders and larger corporate motives. However, Marvel is at least trying and in many places succeeding.

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Now, all that being said, the Marvel vs. DC thing isn't really all that important to me. A few months ago, when I was at my lowest in terms of caring about comic books, He Who Wanders told me to just start finding comics I liked in other places and find some real enjoyment in this hobby again. And I did. So I say, if you don't like 'em, drop 'em . Buy more Vertigo. Buy more Image, Dynamite, Boom!, Dark Horse and IDW. There are a ton of great comics out there. And there are a ton of great collections being turned into TPBs.

We, the consumer, don't owe the industry anything. They dug this whole they're in themselves and if the whole thing burns down, it shouldn't be use left holding the bag. We don't owe anyone anything by supporting monthly sales if they won't give us a product to believe in. So take your exra $$ and spend it on one of IDW's colletions of some 80's indie thing that sparked your interest. Whatever you review--I'll be here to comment and I can be convinced to buy anything.

Obviously, Des, I knew a bit what your views would be as I labelled myself the "Reverse-Cobie" from the outset. But it's nice to see you put them into words, nonetheless.

Like yourself and your qualifying of your praise for Marvel with certain reservations, I feel similarly with regard to DC. I freely admit that DC has LOTS of issues that need to be addressed. However, it just comes down to the fact that I'm simply not enjoying most of the Marvel books I'm buying while I am most certainly enjoying most that I'm buying from DC.

The key word here is "buying". I'm not (or no longer am) buying any of those DC titles you mentioned. And if none of them are up to snuff, I'm not losing one iota of sleep over it. JSA hurt a little bit to let go of, but once I made the decision to, I felt fine. After only a couple of months, I'm not even compelled to flip thru them any more.

On the other hand I'm suddenly struck by how I'm just suddenly disinterested in Marvel's universe. In hindsight it's not really that sudden, but the being struck was sudden and hit me all at once. It just hit me that either I'm not crazy about any Marvels I'm reading, or the ones that I am crazy about are all getting the can simultaneously! That's just too damn much money wasted on stuff that's not doing it for me at all! Meanwhile, there's all kinds of interesting projects popping up at DC and various indies that have me itching to buy them. I certainly can't afford to spend any more on comics, so something's gotta give.....

Seriously, I doubt I'll cut every single Marvel title out, but it'll probably coming down to less than five.

And as for team books, yeah, DC's are most certainly a mess. But DP is improving all the time as you say, REBELS is still highly entertaining and I'm optimistic that the new Legion series will be the best it's been in a long time. But I ain't sinkin' my funds into those Avengers books! Maybe I'll get the trades if they're wildly positively reviewed, but no floppies for yours truly there.

And I wasn't comparing Blackest Night to Siege directly (especially since I haven't read any of Siege), but more to Dark Reign. BN had a LOT of tie-ins, but at the same time, it only invaded the monthlies fairly minimally. As I said, it was only sales-challenged books that got direct tie-ins. At Marvel you couldn't hardly turn a page in a monthly without seeing Norman Osborne looking back at you. I know it benefits their shared universe concept and over-arching storylines, but for me it ruined and caused me to drop books that I had formerly been enjoying, such as Iron Man.

(By the way, Des, I'm curious to hear what you think of Brubaker's more recent Cap stories and whether you agree or disagree and to what extent. DD to, to a lesser degree.)

I'm not going to be buying anymore regular sized $4 comic books. Just ain't gonna do it. And The $4 comics I do buy from DC are about to become fewer. I just this week put ADVENTURE # 10 back on the shelf and may drop JSA ALL-STARS. TEEN TITANS I already axed from my pull. The prices are out of control.

I *did* just pay $5 for the SHE-HULK SENSATIONAL 1-Shot, but that book is pretty thick.

I'm reading very few MARVELS regularly at present already: Mighty Avengers, GotGalaxy, New Mutants-- the second they hit $4, I'm out.

I am most definitely a very fickle comic book reader. If a title goes on a dud spree for at most two issues I've dropped it and am complaining to everyone who will listen (mainly you guys! ) about how it's the worst comic in the world, and so on.

Often, on a nostalgia kick, I might pick up the issues I missed a few months down the line and find I really enjoyed them (case in point - the last few issues of Detective Comics).

So I guess my point is, all comics have bad periods - the question is how willing you are to ride those periods out? (Because, in the case of the Teen Titans franchise, you will have been riding it for a looooooooonnng time.)

On the other hand, I have dropped a whole bunch of franchises over the last few years and am extremely happy (and richer) for having done so. The JLA, JSA, Titans, Outsiders - I became the DC fan(atic) I am thanks to their team-books (especially the first three on that list) and once upon a time it would have been unfathomable to me to not have any of those books on my pull. But reading them became more aggravating than enjoyable and now I barely even care about them. Comics should be !FUN! (especially at these prices!) and if you're not experiencing that sensation from them Lard Lad then I wholeheartedly recommend that you ditch the ones you're not enjoying and try something new.

There's always back-issues if you feel you've missed out on something.

I look over the Marvel rack every week, and every week I see nothing that I want to spend money on. DC is getting most of my money...but it' not like I spend a ton.

Image gets some as well, and to be honest, the books I get from Image are my favorite.

I enjoyed Blackest Night. I enjoyed the ring promo, and tried a few books in the process. Didn't stick with them (although The Bug has gotten me back to Doom Patrol.) DC happens to house most of my favorites. Flash, Legion, Green Lantern. Flash and GL I have been enjoying, and LSH has kept me interested enough (barely) to keep with this dumb crossover. B&tB is an awesome title.

Spider Man, arguably a tie for favorite character of all time, is not a book I will support after what KJMS and Joey Q (mostly JQ) did to him. Started with the Gwen Stacey thing and finally just really lost me as a fan with One More Day. I just cannot care what happened after that (and I know there have been some good stories thanks to the library) I just cannot support that.

Another issue I do have with Marvel is that it is now BMB personal playground. He and JQ are running things the way they want to. Multi year storylines that link with the next, and affect the entire universe. Geoff does something a bit like that at DC (His GL stories...although those only really were told in his book and GLC, which led into Blackest Night and now into Brightest Day), and Didio has a stranglehold on things, but Robinson says he got the editors to agree to only destroy Star City (I believe him, if Dwayne M. is to be believed...the editorial mandates on JLA drove him from the book.)

The thing is, at DC you also have Morrison, Dini, Giffen and others that play in the sandbox. Blackest Knight may have been a _universe changer), but it brought back titles with Brightest Day. I read about everything that is happening iin Marvel and DC...I cannot name anyone except maybe DnA (with the space titles) except those two who are doig big things there.

Just my 2 cents.

I’ll add in a couple of specifics to follow up with what I said and other’s comments:

- I did forget about REBELS when I said New Avengers was better than all DC team books, but I still think New Avengers is probably a better comic—but only slightly. REBELS is actually pretty good. But it says something that I always forget about it. It needs to take things up another notch. Certainly still worthy of collecting though.

- You mention Daredevil, Lardy, and my thoughts no recent issues. Like you, I tend to get a good 2-3 months behind in my reading sometimes and that's where I am with DD. I think I haven't even brought home the last two issues from the CBS yet, so I really can't give an up to date assessment. I know where I left off I was really enjoying the hell out of the comic and considered it still a 'must-read'.

- I am quite enjoying Captain America, much more so than yourself and Reboot, who I know were liking the title but not pleased with recent events. I do recognize Captain America: Reborn was not as up to snuff as the regular Cap title, but I actually like Hitch's art so I didn't mind it as much. I also like "Two Americas", which I think is a way for Bru to write a strait-up Bucky/Falcon story that is relevant to current events in the US. My one complaint is its run about one issue too long. I'm looking forward to the "Heroic Age" storyline coming next.

- Some more specific comics from Marvel I've really enjoyed that you may or may not collect are the Hulk/Incredible Hulk/Red Hulk comics. I know that's asking a real lot of a reader to buy three titles (there is a fourth, She-Hulks or something that I'm not buying). But I actually think this is the most fun crossover I've read in a long time. See the thread for my, Reboot and Mystery Lad's thoughts. It's not perfect but every issue was certainly worth purchasing.

- I'm also saddened by the cancellation / hiatus / restart status of several titles, like Incredible Hercules, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy and Agents of Atlas. I hope AoA's restart takes off because I liked the title, I hope Nova and GotG come back soon because I think both are EXCELLENT and I actually like the recent developments in Herc and think that was a very bold move, so I want to follow-up where Amadaus goes. One title I'm really disappointed in the cancellation is Spider-Woman which I felt was in the 'top 5 best Marvel titles' category. It was really freaking good! But that stupid web motion-comic--which are so incredibly lame to begin with--burnt out Maleev.

Basically, I can see your point about Norman Osborn being in so many titles. No argument here, it was annoying as hell and I'm thrilled its over. I hope Iron Man can get back on track because I've stuck it out. I think the recent storyline was an improvement. Thor also maintained a high level of quality despite being dragged into it for 2 or so issues.

I know I'm enjoying tons of Spider-Man stories these days, while some not so much, but I hardly can muster the energy to recommend someone collect Spider-Man if they're totally against the no-marriage continuity. That argument I leave to Marvel, not me.

The X-Men books are crap these days and the only one that is keeping things interesting is New Mutants. Even X-Factor has been feeling lame for awhile, and the new storyline seemed like a good step in the right direction but faltered pretty quickly for me.

So--that's where I am on several Marvel titles though I'm not sure if I was had a point to make or not.

I just feel like DC's "crimes" have been far worse than Marvel. Whereas, I can give a Marvel comic a 'quiet drop' for not being up to snuff, I actually am so outraged by the lack of quality and editorially direction from DC that I feel not only must I drop the comic book, I have to come here to Legion World and vociferously inflict over the top criticisms against the company.

The inverse of that is that while I feel DC gets it right some times (Brave and Bold, etc.), Marvel more often gets it right than DC does (Nova, GotG, Cap, Daredevil, etc.). The strategy for most of us is to cherry-pick the best stuff and when we accidently buy something we didn't like, or something we collect turns to shit, its our duty to lambast those sons of bitches that did it

Just to give a flip side:

Fred Van Lente, Greg Pak, Jeff Parker.

Those three guys are doing such good work at Marvel, that everything they do these days is BETTER than what Keith Giffen and Paul Dini are doing. I stand by that 100%.

Morrison is one of my favorites but I admit most of his recent DC stuff isn't thrilling me. Not like it was when All-Star Superman and Batman were coming out a few years ago.

Rucka obviously left DC because he can't stand them anymore.

One of DC's best writers besides Geoff (who has his major faults just like BMB does--I find anyone who says Geoff is clearly better to cleary be jaded), is Pete Tomasi.

But, in the pursuit of giving specifics, I feel like I'm maybe splitting hairs. But hey, that's what the Roundtable is for, right?

In a way my argument can be boiled down to BMB vs. Geoff Johns! If a reader has a clear preference between the two writers, then that almost makes the choice between DC and Marvel clear since each writer is obviously the major influence in creative direction at his respective company.

I'd say at this point that BMB's influence is the more pervasive of the two at this point, however, since he has been both a star and entrenched at his company for a longer period of time than Geoff has at DC. Even then, BMB's influence doesn't really stretch very much into, say, the X-titles or the cosmic titles very much. But every event has steamrolled from his Avengers family and peaked with the recent Dark Reign in such a way as to make his storyline fingers be felt more and more. Books like Captain America and Daredevil were among those that mostly had a certain autonomy about them for a long time but eventually fell under the lengthening BMB shadow.

And BMB's shadow can be very dark! As dark as some of Geoff's stories have been at times, they pale in comparison with what Bendis has directly wrought with his vivisection of the Avengers, starting with Disassembled. He took a venerable franchise and decided to tear it down and remake it in his own image.

Bendis has always had a preference for darker, edgier stories, and he really ran with it in his emergence into the Avengers. That style worked very well with his work on Daredevil, Alias and his creator-owned Powers. I contend it never felt right on Avengers and his spin-offs of it. I have doubts that he can pull off a virtual 180 from that approach in the so-called "Heroic Age" upcoming. (This despite the fact that I think his more upbeat and traditional work on Ultimate Spidey has always been terrific.)

Geoff, on the other hand, has always had as his trademark the ability to dissect and restore what it is we like about the characters he takes on while also making them seem fresh at the same time. His work on the Green Lantern franchise doing this is obviously second to none, but he also worked wonders on JSA for a long time, gave Booster Gold a shot in the arm, told some great Superman stories and has done some remarkable work on the Flash franchise that is now entering a second run featuring Barry Allen.

So where Bendis darkens...Geoff lightens up? I don't know if it's that simple. It's not like my comics have to be optimistic and upbeat all the time, but ultimately I think our mainstream superhero icons are supposed to be a lot more about hope than fear (to use a corny GL spectrum analogy). And Geoff's titles certainly seem a lot more heroic than Bendis's.

Clearly, I prefer Geoff Johns' approach more than BMB's. I'm not a Bendis hater by any means, having enjoyed his Daredevil, Ultimate Spidey, Alias and the earlier Powers issues. But anything I've read by him at Marvel in the Avengers titles has been abyssmal. And it's those storylines that infect the other titles I would ordinarily like to such a degree that I feel I have to drop them.

There's PLENTY wrong at DC, I agree. But ultimately, I'm enjoying or looking forward to a LOT more of DC's titles than Marvel's. And Bendis v. Johns kinda sums up my core issue with the creative part of my dissatisfaction, at least.

I've said my piece and will let others comment but to continue the conversation in a related direction, one could make the arguement that your definition of the Marvel/DC difference in regards to Geoff and Bendis has always been this way.

DC traditionally had shiny superheroes that were "brighter". And Marvel has traditionally had flawed superheroes laden with tragedy. This was the case in the Silver Age when Marvel defined itself as a company and being distinctly different from DC.

Still, I don't quite agree that the DCU is "lighter". Geoff's stories add a level of violence to them that most Marvel comics don't come close to. Its one of the complaints brought up against Geoff a lot and its true his comics are uber-violent.

I don't think Bendis has more say at Marvel than Geoff does at DC. Bendis is just a writer. Geoff is like a co-EIC now; he also has spareheaded almost all of the major crossovers of the last few years: Infinite Crisis, Sinesto Corps War, Blackest Night; and he was 1/4 of 52. If anything, I think Geoff has more say than Bendis.

Personally, I think Geoff is a shining light at DC and wish he could have more veto-power over many of the editors.

I also think Bendis is doing some tremendous material. I'm an old school Avengers fan too but frankly--its time other old school Avengers fans let it go. Bendis writing Disassembled was one of the best things to happen to the franchise in years. I'm thrilled Bendis has so much control at Marvel and hope it continues. Daredevil, Spider-Woman, Ultimate Spidey and Alias have all been excellent. And his New Avengers--which admittingly has had its ups and downs--has largely been pretty good. Certainly much better than Chuck Austen, Geoff Johns, and most of Busiek's run--the entire decade preceding him.

That definitely occurred to me, and I meant to include it somewhere in the last post. Marvel's long been a lot grittier in its approach than DC has. Kurt Busiek kinda highlighted that in his Avengers/JLA series rather well, I thought. But the grittiness was usually in certain titles and less so in others.

The Avengers line was one of the more "upbeat" franchises at Marvel throughout most of its history, as opposed to, say, X-Men. In my mind Bendis has been trying to bring some of that X-Men grit over to the Avengers franchise to increase it's popularity. Admittedly, that approach has worked to achieve the desired sales goal, but at what price? I gave up on the X-books a long time ago for the same reason, so now I can't turn to the Avengers anymore for some 'comfort food'?

Oh, Geoff definitely has more than his share of violence in his stories. But even so, it doesn't somehow seem to pervade the mood of the pieces he does, for the most part. It's difficult to explain. I mean, you see the Hawk's die horribly in BN #1, but in #8 you get a beautifully moving scene that kinda wipes it away and cleans the palette. Yes, this is the same man who gave us the villainous Superboy Prime (and Infinite Crisis pretty much sucked), but so much of the work has been uplifting of the characters and franchises he touches that it's that stuff that tends to stay with me more.

And, well, Bendis has been on point with all of Marvel's big crossovers as much as Geoff, so I don't see that argument at all. Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Seige are all his storylines. And though he didn't write Civil War, I'm sure he was at least helping to pull the strings given how closely his franchise tied into it.

Geoff is now literally an executive with DC, but htat's only as of a few months ago. Unfortunately, it looks like his position has more to do with helping develop the movies and what-not if I understand correctly. Certainly, someone needs to step up and clean up the mess that the Titans, JSA and others have devolved into.

The greatest thing that could ever happen to DC is if Geoff never needed to sleep again. Then he could keep writing all his current titles plus Teen Titans and JSA and some others.

Generally Geoff-DC titles are the best the Company has. Its when lesser writers try to channel what Geoff is doing that there is an epic fail.

One complaint I have though recently for Geoff's stuff is it feels like none of his titles can stand on their own. They're all too inter-connected with one another with constant tie-ins and guest stars. That stuff can be cool when done judiciously, but these days it feels like nothing can stand on its own two feet with using other characters as a crunch. I know that's not the case but I need to see it again.

Piping in to say, you guys are making brilliant observations and I'm enjoying the heck out of it. I think Geoff came into DC with a small cadre of like-minded individuals like Gail Simone and Phil Jiminez (where IS he lately??) that knew how to please fanboys because they WERE such big DC fans. Can't really comment on BMB as I don't read his stuff.

Lash, I think me and Cobie are a little afraid of this conversation boiling down to Lardy/Cobie point/counterpoint, but I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'd be curious to hear what more you can say about DC's "like-minded individuals" and what exactly it is you think they bring to the table, though, if you'd care to. Whether or not you have any BMB perspective, I think you could add a lot to that side of the issue. Please do!

Yeah, I especially want to hear what DC and Marvel writers Lash and others are enjoying besides Geoff and Bendis.

Gail: Bringing in Nightwind and Infectious Lass at the tail-end of the reboot era, a pure fangirl move that I loved her for. Knowing how to take a character everyone had given up on-- Catman-- and making him a star? She did this. See also: Geoff Johns.

Phil: His plot for Team Titans (I've seen this on the web) involved bringing Duela Dent firmly back into continuity. Along with Devin Grayson, this was finally accomplished in JLA/Titans. 100% pure fanboyism. HIs run on Womder Woman introduced Wonder Boy-- 200% pure fanboyism here.

Geoff Johns is, however, the undisputed King of this talent-- he KNOWS, as Cobie states above, how to make the characters we already know and love relevant again, and also-- much in his favor-- does so without completely destroying what has come in the time since (Teen Titans, Hawkman, JSA, Booster Gold etc etc etc).

There may me more examples of this from other creators at DC since but these are the ones I have/had primary contact with.

THE DEVIL'S DUE DEPT:

John Byrne, of all people, also had a major hand in restoring JSA to greatness-- he re-inserted the Golden-age Womder Woman (as Hippolyta) back into continuity.

This was one of the very few things he's done that I haven't hated since the 80s. I believe Johns and co. took this example and ran with it when they came into power.

My take on other DC writers:

I think bringing in Tony Bedard is a large feather in DC's cap. With him coming on GLC, just wait, he's gonna slowly balloon up to Geoff-size proportions. He's long been an underrated writer, but he's finally gonna get his due!

Bringing Paul Cornell in from Marvel is a potentially big, big move for DC as well as he moves in on Action Comics as well. Marvel never seemed to know what to do with him, but I think he will get his due at DC.

Tomasi's a big talent, for sure. He needs something more high profile and out of Geoff's sandbox to properly get the attention he deserves. I know he's got a new Guy Gardner book coming up, but I'd like to see him more outside his comfort zone but more on the radar than The Mighty was.

JMS has obviously done a bang-up job on B&B. Now to see how he will do with two high profile books added to his plate. I'm really excited about him writing Superman and may actually give his WW a try, both based largely on how refreshed his work has been on B&B.

Giffen's stuff on Doom Patrol is getting better and better all the time. While Magog may very well be a flop, DP is showing he's got what it takes. If he can find other projects that are as inspired, his creativity is potentially limitless.

I'm hot and cold with Grant Morrison, but there's no doubt the man has more imagination in his left pinky than most other writers have in their lifetimes!

Dan Jurgens has kind of an old-school writing style, but it ages pretty well. I'm thrilled he will be doing a follow-up mini to his excellent Booster Gold work and hope we'll get plenty more after that.

Gail Simone has made me a huge fan with her work on Secret Six. I'm definitely getting Birds of Prey! I can tell Gail likes her books to be a little more on the fringes of the DC universe, but I wish she'd take a crack at at least one of DC's flailing titles. (I bet she could do something with Titans) She's probably DC's freshest voice at this point.

Those are the best off the top of my head. Otherwise: J.T. Krul has some potential and could make the leap, given the right project. Winick--he's gotta go! I'm hearing good things (surprisingly) about Tony Daniel as a writer/artist. Paul Dini--none of his comics work has really grabbed me, surprisingly. James Robinson has shown the occasional sign of his earlier talent, but has mostly disappointed.

Thanks for bringing up Giffen, Lardi-- I adore the man and his skills, but I'm very much in the camp of belief that he does his best work with co-writers (JL, LSH, Ambush Bug, Heckler).

DOOM PATROL may just be the title to disprove this theory.... it has continually gottem better and better. I bet Keith is held in VERY high regard by Geoff, Gail and their group.

I agree that Bedard is a seriously under-rated writer. I've said it a million times but his Negation series by Crossgen was just about one of the best sci-fi comic books I've EVER read. Where he excels is he can take a group of characters and create this sense of tension between them (even if they're all allies) that makes the forward motion of the plot seem so seemless. He also writes "weird situations" really well and how people react to them.

I'm of course a huge Gail fan and buy all her titles.

Yes, DP is suprisingly good for that very reason (meaning his not having a co-writer)!

Other honorable mentions at DC are Sterling Gates of Supergirl and Bryan Q. Miller of Batgirl. Both have done sterling work on those titles. It remains to be seen how good they'll be outside those titles.

And of course Paul Levitz's impending return has me just the teensiest bit excited--especially considering what property he's returning to!

I haven't read a whole lot of GrayPal, but they certainly have quite the following on their various projects.

Hey! That's a whole lotta good writers not named Geoff Johns, huh?

Agree about Keith on DP. My comments on that thread go into detail about why I think he's doing such a good job there.

Graypal do a great job on Jonah Hex but there other works these days are not doing it for me at all.

Warlord--which is basically like a creator-owned title--is very well done by Mike Grell.

Tony Daniel is not working for me at all on Batman.

I've thought Dan Jurgens has done a really great job on Booster Gold and both his writing and artwork have reclaimed their place of greatness because of it. I think Booster under Jurgens has been better than Booster under Geoff.

I don't think Warlord occurred to me because it's not really a DCU book as it shares little-to-no continuity with the rest. I think it's technically in the DCU (given a Green Arrow cross-over many moons ago), but I definitely wantit to stay insulated where it is. That book has far exceeded my expectations and gets better all the time. I never collected Warlord in the past, but I'm glad I took a chance on this incarnation. It's truly excellent! (Gotta pick up that Showcase Warlord collection...)

GrayPal's POWER GIRL has been pretty much fluff, but enjoyable fluff for me.

One cannot discount their run on HAWKMAN, though, which was SO much better than even Geoff's run on same previously... With this run, I'd put them in the "Geoff/Gail/Phil" fanboy-pleasing camp (revitalization of villains, restoration of long-unseen 3rd tier faves like Golden Eagle)...

Marvelwise, HEROES FOR HIRE was on its way to Giffen/DeMatties/Maguire greatness before DC snagged GrayPal up exclusively.

I haven't read a bit of Daniel's run on Batman (though I read his crappy Battle for the Cowl), but it's consistently getting decent reviews on CBR, a site that gives me very reliable reviews typically.

I don't know if it was better than Geoff's run, but it certainly built very well on it. Dan's art remains very pleasing to the eye, and he can tell a very satisfying tale that shows the old school approach is still relevant. Definitely looking forward to Time Masters!

I'm more of a character-follower than a writer-follower so other than the big names (Morrison, Johns, Simone, Mllash, etc) I don't really remember which writers have written which books I've read.

I also have never read a Marvel comic so I can't speak to the talents of Bendis and co. over there.

Regarding DC writers...

Geoff Johns - as much as I love his work most of the time, CK's suggestion of him skipping sleep and writing every book at DC gives me nightmares! I like variety in my books and Johns has a very samey formula to all the stories he tells, and as enjoyable as that formula often is, it can get kinda boring if you read a bunch of his books in a row.

Grant Morrison - can do (almost) no wrong for me at the moment. I'm a late-comer to his fandom but his run of Seven Soldiers - All-Star Superman - Batman (3 of my favourite storylines of the past decade!) has rocketed him to the top of my writers list. Something else else I never would have expected 15 years ago when I was barely tolerating him on JLA.

JMS - All I've ever read by him are his incredible few issues of Brave & Bold and he's already a writer I'll follow. Very much looking forward to his Superman.

Gail Simone - Too 'hit and miss' for me. I like some of her stuff and think she has some great ideas but her writing often bugs me. I thought Villains United was by far the worst of those Infinite Crisis minis and because of that I've avoided her Secret Six, despite its generally good reviews.

... Too tired to go into the rest in detail but I do think DC has some good up-and-comers. I thought that Prometheus Faces of Evil (or whatever) one-shot was well-written (though I don't remember who wrote it). JT Krul seems to be getting some good reports from around the place though I haven't read anything by him yet I don't think.

If you're still looking to drop those Marvel books you're not enjoying Lard Lad maybe you could tell us what books you're currently buying and we can recommend some for you? Vertigo seems to be firing on all cylinders at the mo so I'm sure you'd find some stuff you like there.

For me, while there was an initial fanboyish appeal to Johns's writing, I found myself bored with his work rather quickly. So much of his stuff basically just consists in making things superficially resemble the way the were X number of years ago [usually late Bronze Age], but with two big differences: 1) the incredibly casual extreme violence tossed in (much of it directed against teenagers/old people); 2) the fact that his storylines in different titles tend to be so inter-connected (as Cobie suggests) that it's difficult to follow them unless you've been reading half DC's titles for the past ten years. The violence would actually be less jarring if the overall mood were grittier, but it seems really out of place with the "retro" feel he seems to be going for so much of the time.

What really bugs me, though, is that while he seems to be really good at playing with continuity, with re-arranging and connecting the pieces, there's a decided lack of genuine inventiveness in his work. So while he's often described as restoring much of DC to its pre-Crisis roots, in a way his stuff is very much the antithesis of the Silver/Bronze Age, which were all about constantly introducing new concepts and new ideas. In this regard, Morrison seems to me much more the heir of the Silver Age than Johns is.

I, on the other hand, have very little good to say about DC's writers, and none of it about their current work.

Geoff Johns will always have a special place in my heart for Green Lantern: Rebirth, the first 25 issues of the GL ongoing, and GLC: Recharge (the last one co-written with Dave Gibbons.) However...I'm still not convinced that Johns was able to keep up the quality of JSA without David Goyer co-writing, Teen Titans lost steam after Mike McKone stopped drawing it (which makes me wonder just how much McKone really contributed), his Superman/LSH run was ham-fisted, and his Flash run is one of the most overrated in the history of DC Comics. What really galls me about Johns is the schizophrenic tone of his writing, alternately sentimental and sensationalistic. The one issue of Blackest Night that I read (the first) was all the worst about Johns in a nutshell, and I haven't read anything of his since.

Gail Simone I already criticized in The Anywhere Machine's "Things You Are Supposed To Like But Really Hate" thread, but it bears repeating -- for all the good things that can be said about her as a person, it doesn't change my opinion that her writing is corny, smug, overly self-conscious and dripping with what passes for irony, and she also portrayed Dinah and Barbara as reverse sexists.

Grant Morrison is the most egregious example of The Cult of Personality since John Byrne from 1981 on, passing off mediocre work as something special thanks to his P.T. Barnum/David Bowie/Madonna-like talent for self-promotion.

Tony Bedard did stellar work for Marvel on Exiles, IMO outdoing the work of all Exiles writers that came before or after him. But what I've read of his DC-exclusive work has been a string of false starts and letdowns (I still haven't washed off the stink of the six issues of R.E.B.E.L.S. that I wasted good money on.)

GrayPal are IMO overrated. I've really wanted to like their work in the past, but never have. I adored the first two issues of Power Girl, but after that their brains seemed to turn to custard.

As for JMS, I've been burned by too much of his sucky work for Marvel (and not just the editorially-mandated stuff -- I thought his Thor was abominable, and he seems to have had pretty much free rein on that) to give him anything more than a wait-til-the-trades-come-into-the-library chance.

^^^ I love your strong opinions DD! I agree with a lot of them but one thing I wonder about is the Grant Morrison/Cult of Personality thing. Maybe this is because I'm a late-comer to his whole 'thing' but it seems to me more like his fans do all the talking/praising/promoting while he sits back and just works. In marked contrast to someone like Mark Millar who takes self-promotion (and self-importance) to aggravatingly painful levels.

P.S. I think you'll like JMS' Brave & Bold run when you get it out from the library. It is so good and so far removed from the death and destruction Didio era of DC Comics that it's a wonder he lets it get published.

B&tB is a huge bright spot in the DCU right now. One issue stories that explore characters motivations and personalities.

Geoff Johns- it's noticeable when he gets stretched too thin. I liked BLACKEST NIGHT, but now see it as a way to get to BRIGHTEST DAY, which shows lots of promise. (Aliveman? I'd buy it for Boston Brand, but with the Hawks, Aquaman and Mera and Osiris, I'm quitle looking forward to it.) I'm kind of mad at him because of Tempest and Damage, though.

GrayPal- Loved, loved, loved their Hawkman run. I wish they'd get the title back, along with a team book. Maybe Teen Titans? I didn't care for the initial POWER GIRL series at all, but liked the last half-dozen or so issues quite a bit.

JMS- Have you heard how he's beginning his WONDER WOMAN run? Paradise Island will have been recently 'destroyed'. Yawn. I liked Simone's WW run more than just about anyone here and wanted more, but I was open to JMS after enjoying his THOR run and the BRAVE and BOLD issues I've read. That openness has now decreased to 'I'll try it but I don't really want to'.

Bedard- Cobie's right... his run on NEGATION was great and makes me think that 5 years or so down the road, I'd like to see him on LSH. I have other issues with the whole REBELS/dot Legion concept, but I've liked more than disliked his current run.

Simone- Secret Six is great, and I am also looking forward to BIRDS OF PREY, but I'll miss her on WW. Isn't there some other project she's been hinting about, or was BOP it? Hawk and Dove as additions to that title's cast doesn't thrill me the way Flamebird and Black Orchid would've... oh, well.

I totally agree with you EDE that Grant Morrison is 100% more Silver Age than Geoff Johns is. No question. Johns is much more late 70s Bronze Age than he is Silver Age to me.

Morrison is all about the "big ideas" which as you mention was a very Silver Age thing.

While Johns' strengths (and weaknesses a lot too) lie in his use of characterisations and character-interaction - a very Bronze Age thing.

I don't agree with you that Johns is completely lacking in inventiveness though. He's nowhere near the creative genius Morisson is and sure, he recycles A LOT but I think his work on Green Lantern over the last few years has been extremely inventive. All the new coloured Corps and their associated characters feel completely 'new' and 'fresh' to me and most important of all - like they are here to stay, like these are all permanent new characters to the Green Lantern story, not just flash-in-the-pans.

I suppose its a matter of degree, but I tend to see the color-spectrum stuff at the core as just a matter of taking existing concepts and linking them together (as in "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if GL's green energy, Sinestro's yellow energy, the Star Sapphire's power, and Black Hand's power were all manifestations of a single underlying set of forces? And then we could add more for the remaining colors?") rather than a really radical new idea.

I'd disagree there, Edie. Yes, he's doing something with the spectrum that was ripe for the taking, but the bottom line is no one else thought to go there before! If you can find a way to expand and enrich a hero's mythology without totally trampling on everything that ever went before, I'd say that's pretty inventive. As you say, elements were always there, but he found a really cool way to link them all and add lots of new stuff in the process.

You might argue that there was a good bit of revisionism, especially in his retelling of Hal's origin story, but it was more organic than, say, making Hal a drunk was back when Giffen retold it. In the process he explored answers to mysteries that we'd never even though about like why was Abin Sur in a ship when he crashed on Earth or why the GL oath might be worded the way it is. That's a lot of creativity and imagination at work there that feels a lot more organic than "everything you thought you knew was wrong!"

Yeah, Geoff's a little bit country, but he's also a little bit rock n' roll!

I'm still not convinced. It just seems to me there's a massive difference between

(1) "Hey, here's what we'll do next: We'll have a guy show up who used to be a Green Lantern, but now he's turned evil! And let's give him his own power ring that runs off yellow energy!"

and

(2) "Hey, there's all these different Green Lantern villains/characters with different energy-colored powers... why don't we link 'em all together! And make up some new colored energies?"

The Silver Age (and much of the Bronze Age for that matter) was about creating the dots, Johns's stuff is still primarily about connecting them.

Whilst gushing about how much I loved Kurt Busiek's 'back to the basics' stuff over at Marvel (particularly with the Avengers, and his use of older characters in the Thunderbolts), I noted that he got a lot of criticism for the exact same reasons that Johns is getting here.

He seems really good at playing with stuff that other people have dropped, and tying stuff together (the whole Avengers Forever thing could be seen as a parallel to the this Emo Spectrum thing, taking past stuff lying around and tying it all together with a shiny bow), but not so stellar at creating new and exciting things.

A decade after the fact, none of the new characters Busiek created have 'stuck.' Will any of the new characters Johns has created still be around a decade from now? Sure, Sinestro will still be around, but he's hardly a Johns creation...

For all that he's reviled, even Liefield can point to the enduring popularity of Deadpool, almost 20 years later, and say, 'Ha-Ha!'

Yeah, I'm one of those who enjoyed the HELL outta Busiek's Avengers run (except for that crazy Kang story--WTF?!?), so maybe that informs my comics reading tastes...at least with regards to the big icons. I'm a guy who likes really dark stuff, too, like Walking Dead and a lot of Garth Ennis's stuff. But when it comes to heroic characters like the Avengers and those DC characters we've been discussing, I like a certain optimism and heroic attitude to the stories. Busiek filled the bill very nicely with most of his Avengers stuff.

I've already said in this thread I like Geoff John's work and wish he could do *more* DC titles. But I have to say I agree with a lot of criticisms EDE and Stealth have put forward on Johns.

Do I think he's a great writer whose work I will buy? Yes.

Do I think sometimes fandom gives him a pass on his many flaws because he fulfills their fandom fantasies? Yes.

I think he's good but there is a lot of room for him to get better. While he might be one of the best writers at DC right now, that isn't saying *that* much. I would not put him in my "top 10 best writers writing comic books right now" list. I can name at least 10 other writers creating comic books that are putting on better work more consistently.

In the long run, I hope he continues to grow as a writer, stops focusing too much on the shared universe/continuity end of things and creates some great stories. He's certainly young enough and expresses a joy in making comics. I'm optimistic about what the future holds for him. But I don't want to give him the Nobel Prize 3 months after he's been elected President.

I also agree with Eryk that Morrison is more the heir to the Silver Age in the notion that the Silver Age was all about "creation" and "new ideas".

People who focus on the fact that a few Golden Age concepts were re-imagined are missing the point and haven't been paying attention. That wasn't what the Silver Age was about. It was about the exploration of new things, people, concepts and stories. It felt unlimited in the scope of what could come. Morrison captures this grand sense.

Wow! Now, that's pretty harsh! I'm pretty sure that he would make MOST fans' Top Ten lists very easily and would probably be at or near the top of most of those lists. I know in my case I could probably list several writers who are doing better stuff, but he would probably be put above, say, Chew's John Layman simply because I've only read one thing by Layman. The large body of quality work by Johns would probably put him at or near the top for me.

So you stepped in it, Cobester--name 10 writers currently putting out comics who you'd rank higher than Geoff Johns along with at least a brief explanation! I'd like to see this list!

...and Rob Leifeld cannot be on that list...

Like I didn't know that was coming.

Of course I never would have said that if I didn't already pick my ten. I know you too well for that, Lardy.

But first: I don't think it was too harsh. I think Geoff does a great job, he's just not the best of the best right now.

(1) Matt Wagner – Madame Xanadu and Zorro have been nothing short of excellent, of far superior quality than all of John’s work as a “storytelling” is concerned. Green Hornet: Origins has already started that way too. Plus, Wagner has a plethora of other comics to back it up.

(2) Grant Morrison – while not everything he does it the best thing ever, more of his work achieve “perfection” in my mind than Geoff’s does. He also brings a level of creation to his projects that Geoff sometimes achieves—while Grant almost always does it.

(3) Darwyn Cooke – Cooke is far superior in getting right into character depth with as few wasted moments as possible and making his characters extremely iconic in the process. He does the things Geoff does but in less time and far more consistently.

(4) Bill Willingham – Sure, Geoff writes several more comics than Bill does, but Willingham in all fairness writes more characters thane even Geoff! With Fables, Willingham has a cast of 50 or so characters who each have distinct personalities that continually surprise the readers. He consistently writes excellent stories too—so much that the stories are just as good as the characters. And his series has been going for like 100 issues now. Fables packs more of a punch in a single issue than all of Blackest Night’s 8 issues.

(5) Fred Van Lente – I meant it when I said Van Lente is doing incredible work at Marvel. If you haven’t heard of him by now, you’re really missing out. His Spider-Man stories are better than any others since probably Roger Stern. I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating. And the others series who feel his touch, from Incredible Hercules to whatever, are all top quality.

(6) Ed Brubaker – I know some of you get down on Ed, but I think that’s frankly just hog-wash. Bru is Marvel’s best writer right now and he is much more consistent than Geoff, Bendis or the other top names. He’s the best crime comic book writer since, hell, Lev Gleason. His stories are always poignant no matter what the scale of the story is, and he doesn’t pull any punches per the noir tradition.

(7) DnA – Just like Geoff, Dan and Andy don’t always get it right, but they do much more so than Geoff in my mind. Even more, while they use traditional characters like Geoff does, there is a sense of progression and newness Geoff doesn’t have. They are not hamstrung by this unrealistic desire to restore a company to its glory days of 1982. They tell great, solid sci-fi series. And they do it with two consistently good monthly titles (really three since there are so many minis—and recently, four).

(8) Robert Kirkman – I can already tell the response some of you will give me: “yeah, I think Kirkman’s great too, but he’s not on Geoff’s level yet.” Really? I mean, seriously? Where then, is Geoff’s Walking Dead? He doesn’t have one. Because he just hasn’t gone there yet. He might be comfortable with the DCU and want to play in it, but he then really needs to make the decision: do I want to have an ‘anything goes style’ (which he sometimes writes to) or do I want a ‘restore DC to its greatness’ style (which he also sometimes writes to). His overall body of work reveal a conflict in Geoff internally; Kirkman once had this conflict and overcame it IMO.

(9) Garth Ennis – I’m a big fan of Ennis and I can write you a 20 page paper on it, but I’ll sum it up: he takes risks; he has black sense of humor that pulls you right in; he creates character relationships that end up meaning more to me sometimes than relationships I see between real life people—and are more realistic too. And his storylines can make you laugh one page and then make you marvel at how moving they were. And then you think about them constantly after. I can’t say that for a lot of Geoff’s work.

(10) Gail Simone – Many point to this idea that Gail is also trapped in pleasing fanboy sensibilities but I think that’s a bunch of bull-crap myself. Gail’s works are not written for anyone other than herself these days, because you can see that in the risks she takes in every issue of Secret Six, which could easily offend a lot of people. Her Birds of Prey shows she can write characters with the best of them.

There are others I can mention too: I think Jeff Parker and Greg Pak are more reliable than Geoff but you can point out they’re still too “new” and don’t have Geoff’s body of work (which doesn’t necessarily help him—see: Infinite Crisis). Same goes for Jason Aaraon.

JMS is a writer putting out better stuff these days (Thor & Brave and Bold), but I know many would point to his Spider-Man stories but at this point I think it was pretty obvious Joe Q and Co. were the ones who pushed things in that bad direction. Removing those awful story decisions aside, most of his Spidey work was technically quite good.

There are writers who aren’t putting out enough consistent work to really be a competitor (Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, etc.), so I took them off the table.

Again, I like Geoff’s work and I don’t think I’m being that harsh about it. But I feel there must be a counter-part to the never-ending stream of Geoff Johns praise on the internet, especially by fans of Geoff.

You'll note I specifically left Bendis off the list, and PAD too.

One more thing: go ahead and make your arguements on the writers. I know Gail & Fred Van Lente will be the easy ones for people to claim Geoff does a better job than (and again I'll say specifically about Van Lente, you all don't know what the hell you're talking about ).

And let me even try to see one of you claim Johns does better stories than Cooke. You might as well leave Legion World permanently and quit comics

Bendis annoys the crap out of me, he's so bad, and yet so loved by mysterious 'fans.'

PAD just makes me cry. He has such amazing potential, and yet cannot tell a superhero story to save his life, it seems... Tons of intriguing storylines started, and almost always ended with a limp non-ending with the villain either just walking away, or giving a speech and walking away. Argh!

Re: PAD, It's very sad to see a once-great writer getting further and further away from his prime.

I sense a post in the re-reading thread coming...

Mr. Cooke is a given Cobie.

As far as Fred Van Lente goes...he could be writing the ultimate Spidey stories, but the fact remains that it isn't really spidey. So I'll never read them. I tried a few trades from the debacle on...really did nothing for me after reading the aborted attempt to derail Peters life.

Spidey would NEVER have made a "deal with a devil" to save anyone. It's not his fault...or maybe not totally JMS's either (Joey Q. wanted it done...but JMS wrote a horrid story, and yes I read it at the library.)

I have to point out the argument for anyone who says they won't read Spidey because of Brand New Day, many can easily say the same thing about the Legion, Green Lantern and most specifically, the Flash, all of which have been influenced by Geoff.

I wish Reboot would visit here and make that argument.

I won't pick up Spidey because I'd have to buy three (or more) titles a month, not because of OMD/BND. I've thought about picking up trades, but the sheer number of them created by so many issues being cranked out is just daunting. Also, add in that the quality is inconsistent by definition because there are so many different people writing. Certainly reviews I've read (including Cobie's) seem to bear that fact out.

As for your list, it's definitely different from what mine would be. Some I disagree with, mostly mildly, and others I just have no opinion about because I've read very little or nothing by them. Cooke wouldn't make my list because I simply haven't read anything at all by him, for example. It's not that I don't want to or never intend to, but I can't give a guy props sight unseen.

Anyhow, I'll react to your list (and possibly shoot back one of my own at some point) later, but for now, I gotta mow the lawn!

Looking forward to it! And of course, not only are all lists subjective, but all of us certainly can only list writers we have more than just a passing familiarity with (why I didn't seriously include, say, Dave Sim).

The Spidey/having to buy 3 comics a month argument is a good one that I (and I don't think anyone) can refute--well played Lardy

The only writer on Cobie's list that would make my top whatever list would probably be Bill Willingham. His Elementals work was some of the best stuff I've read, even if it was hardly 'superhero' fare at times.

Plus he gets points for making a joke about cunningulus and getting away with it.

Morningstar, apparently alone in bed - "That was amazing!"
Boyfriend, coming up into the panel - "For you maybe. I think I dislocated my jaw..."

Well, both Kirkman's THE WALKING DEAD and Simone's SECRET SIX are in my personal top 5... and Johns deosn't currently have a series I consider my own top 5... so, yeah.

To clarify: those aren't my top 10 writers. I'd have to give that a lot more thought and that might take awhile.

Those are just 10 writers I think are doing better work than Johns. I think I could probably 5 more if I tried.

I think Geoff is taking quite a beating here. he's doing a job, and has been asked several times (or at the very least gotten approval) to figure out and smooth out the histories of several very convoluted characters.

The violence that he does has gotten to me on occassions, but no more so than any other creator out there.

Ever since the first couple issues of super hero comics, writers have been reinventing the wheel. He does it better than some, worse than others.

He seems to be happy right now to play in the DC sandbox. He seems to have a respect for what come before, and trying to take them into the future. Didio seems to be fixated onthe silver/bronze age characters, and Geoff has a great knowledge of them.

He's not my favorite writer at the moment either, but he's up there, because I enjoy his work.

I'll fall on Dev's side here. I personally really enjoyed BLACKEST NIGHT and am looking forward to BRIGHTEST DAY.

And all this without reading one issue of GL.

Well, I don't want to be known as anti-Geoff. Like I said, I'm actually a fan and buy all of his work.

This is like the middle arguing against the top. It's not two opposite sides arguing. I just don't think he's the best of the best. He's good, though. I look forward to him continuing to improve over time.

PS - I rank Bendis right next to Geoff. Different writer all together, but same type of argument. I think he's very good. But he has enough flaws--I wouldn't rank him in my top 10 either, but I think he does quality work for the most part.

Perhaps its because the two are so prominent in their respective companies, it puts them in this position? Obviously, if you don't agree with my classifications, you wouldn't be able to comment on that. I think perhaps because they make such an effort to guide their respective companies it puts them in positions where they are forced to do things in their comics that make them occasionally sub-par? No real way to know if that's true or not.

I'm not a big fan of either Geoff or Bendis. I really dislike everything I have seen Bendis touch. I thought it was bias because of Disassembled, but even now I still always feel like im watching the trailer of a movie, rather than the movie itself

For the record, it's not so much Geoff I have a problem with, as the overall approach that DC is taking these days, and since Geoff is their most prominent writer, he ends up being the target.

For all I know it's Didio that's calling up and saying "Hey, let's have somebody's stomach ripped out this week!" and "Let's get Luthor back in the Lex-Soar 7, but be sure to link it to Thanagarian technology!" and so he's really the one that's responsible for the stuff that annoys me.

I actually, I think that's the best criticism for Bendis New Avengers & crossover stuff I've seen thus far! (Moreso Secret Invasion than Siege).

This could easily be the same for me and some of the things that bother me about Geoff's work (not everything, mind you, but a lot of it).

From an interview taken this weekend:

Another reader then asked about Wonder Woman, and if she would get a second ongoing series like Superman and Batman. "We keep on trying, we just want to get the first one right," DiDio said. Another fan asked about Wonder Woman's revised origin, post-Infinite Crisis, to which DiDio explained that her mother Hippolyta was no longer the original Wonder Woman of World War II. Additionally, Wonder Woman was again a founding member of the Justice League. "Wonder Woman is our premier female superhero in DC Comics," DiDio said. "When she first appears she should be in our premier superhero team.

Just another thing Dan Didio is doing for DC these days. And letting us readers know that in interviews too.

So much for a groovy second Wonder Woman title set during WWII!

Taken literally, DiDio, JSA *IS* your premiere team. They were the first!!!!

Hard to argue with Matt's pedigree, but I wouldn't rank him above Geoff. I sampled Madame Xanadu (the first 6 issues), but it really didn't grab me. Haven't tried Green Hornet yet. May wait for trade.

The best thing he ever wrote that I've read is Sandman Mystery Theatre. (One of my top ten fave runs of all time--see early pages of thread)Looooved that! But that was many years ago AND I think it got better when Steve Seagle came aboard as co-writer. The quality of the book after Seagle wrote it solo bears that out.

The main thing with Wagner, though, is I haven't read enough of his stuff and very little of what he's actually known for.


There's no doubting Grant's enormous talent and imagination, but for me that rarely translates as an engrossing story. The ideas are just SO! BIG! that the characters tend to suffer as does simple comprehensibility. Probably the best two runs of his I've ever read are his JLA and Doom Patrol. The former was the perfect distillation of his ideas without losing comprehensibility. The latter was just so crazy and wildly outrageous that even if you were completely lost at points, you somehow didn't care.

All-Star Superman was close to perfect, but only close. Final Crisis was "blah". The Batman stuff is and was fairly interesting, but you just feel so detached from the characters. I think my problem with Morrison boils down to that: I just don't connect with the characters.

Alan Moore is very similar to Grant in many ways. The difference with Moore's stuff for me is his big ideas always seem more comprehensible and his characters are always more three-dimensional.

Again, problem here is I haven't read enough Fables. One trade in, I enjoyed it but have only reached the tip of the iceberg. I look forward to seeing more of the story unfold over time.

(Noticed you didn't mention his crappy JSA run... )

I LOVE his work on Hercules with Greg Pak. Unfortunately, it's the only thing I've read with either writer, and they work as a pair there. So it's difficult for me to distinguish between the two. It seems you qualify him solely for his Spidey work, however. I would hesitate to place any writer above Geoff on such a limited criteria. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Fred gets lengthy periods of time to recharge his Spidey batteries between appearances on Amazing.

I'd say Fred is very, very promising, but at this point I'd argue he hasn't done anything career-defining to put him on such a high echelon.

Oh yeah, Ed's been one of my favorites for the better bart of a decade, so no argument there. Most of his work is nothing short of extraordinary!

I know my disappointment with Cap may seem overly negative, but it's the longest dry spell I've seen him go on the title. I fear he may have burnt himself out on the book without realizing it. I'd say reviews from other sources tend to back me up with that feeling. Also, Marvel's Project is decent but reads mostly as "Brubaker porn" (stealing it back ) for us, his fanboys.

Criminal is one of his masterpieces. I'll buy that as long as he puts it out! Incognito was good, but felt like a poor cousin of the absolutely, undeniably superior Sleeper from a few years back. And I thought his Daredevil run was a hit from start to finish, moreso than Bendis/Maleev, IMO.

So I'd probably rank Bru over Geoff overall.

I'm definitely a fan, and they've done more for Marvel cosmic characters since Starlin. But I wouldn't rank them above Geoff. The main reason is because though they write exciting yarns, the characters rarely if ever feel all that real. I mean, they're fun, and they are written to make them interesting. But I don't really care about them as much as I should. Everyone has a shtick and they emote, but there's an extra layer missing that's hard to describe. I guess they write more in a '70/'80s style. There's nothing wrong with that, but it keeps them out of my upper echelon of writers.

Oh, I'm definitely there, and you know it! For Invincible and Walking Dead and their combined 140 issues of excellence alone, he deserves to be there. He gets extra points to committing to do creator-owned work, too. I may very well place him higher than Geoff as well.

Garth is one of my very, VERY favorite writers, and I'd definitely put him above Geoff with little hesitation. I have to catch up with Battlefields, but The Boys is turning into another masterpiece along the lines of Preacher and Hitman. Crossed (published by Avatar) was pretty good, too, though it would be a hard one to recommend.

Gail's stock is definitely rising with me. I LOVE Secret Six and will definitely pick up the Birds of Prey relaunch. I have two or three BoP trades of hers and enjoyed those nut not nearly as much as Secret Six. I'll give her another year and see how she ranks with me by then as I'll have around 50 issues and two series of her work under my belt.


Who else would I rank higher than Geoff? Oh, definitely Jason Aarons, on the strength of Scalped alone! That series is in the mid-thirties, so I think I've seen enough. His Punisher Max is really good so far, too. I've purchased the first of his Ghost Rider trades and will let y'all know what I think when I get to it.

There are many others who write irregularly these days, who I left off. Moore, Gaiman, Brian K. Vaughn.

Kurt Busiek, once my very favorite, is on the rise again as Astro City pucblishes more regularly and creator-owned work looks to be his focus.

At times Peter Milligan and Mark Wais were better than Geoff, too. Mark's doing pretty good stuff at Boom!, and Peter is kinda below my radar and has been for a good while. I have Peter's first Hellblazer arc but haven't read it yet.

So that's about four or five writers solidly or marginally better than Geoff who I read and are currently actively writing.

I've been waiting for that post and it was a thoroughly enjoyable read!

I figure at this point I won't go back and forth since its all subjective but am curious as to what other posters think regarding certain writers above Geoff.

Some random thoughts:

- You definitely have to review those Ghost Rider trades! I've considered picking them up myself but have not yet. One fresh recommendation from you will tip me that way since you haven't let me down yet!

- I thought about putting Jason Aaron on the list but hesitated because Scalped is about the only thing of his I read. I hope to change that.

- I left Waid off the list for the same reason as Bendis and PAD, in that too much of his stuff misses the mark. It's almost unfair because he just has such a large body of work that the average is weighed down by it I think. Still, I find his Unknown at Boom! to simply be fantastic and he does have some amazing runs that rank him among the best ever (Flash anyone?).

- Busiek is definitely back on the rise, I agree. I'd love to see him have Astro City on a regular basis as promised and one more great book and his backlog of amazing runs will justify him being on any one's top 10 list again.

- You mentioned Brian K. Vaughn and it occurs to me with his Ex Machina ending there won't be any Vaughn series going right now. That's criminal! I missed the boat on Ex Machina but I won't let that happen again.

Other things I LOVED by Van Lente include his Marvel Zombies miniseries (which I'm the opposite of Reboot on--I like 3 & 4 better than 1 & 2) and his work on the Scorpion via Amazing Fantasy, which I thought was superb (there is a thread here on Gym'lls for it which I thought I started). I'm optimistic his upcoming Iron Man: Legacy ongoing series will give me the kick-ass Iron Man comic I've been dying to collect since Busiek left.

I think Johns was a much better writer earlier in his tenure at DC (The JSA/Batman/pre-200 Flash stuff). Then he seemed to lose some restraint and his work suffered, which leads me to suspect he needs a good editor sitting on him and as he grows in stature that becomes less of a possibility.

I think the penchant for Ultra-violence and continuity porn undermine his better ideas, whereas if you look at his first 50 or so JSA issue, these things were there but kept in check to the service of a better story.

Batman? Johns never wrote Batman, did he?!?

As for his Flash, that's one I never did get into, strangely enough. I've a hunch that it's because I was so in love with Mark Waid's Flash that I found his taking it in another direction unpalatable. So I only read bits of Johns' run. Some day, I'll have to give it a second chance. I'm fairly sure I'll like it better then.

Des, I'm surprised you didn't address my comments on Morrison specifically. To me, he's just ALL OVER the place as far as quality and consistency. Please, guys, give me your perspective on Morrison and address the points I made above. For convenience's sake, here they are:

Again, I don't question the originality and brilliance of his ideas. I DO question his characterizations and his execution a lot, though.

I get what you're saying about Morrison, though I find it a lot less than you do I think.

I think Morrison is quite brilliant and the way in which he evokes grand, epic storylines while at the same time keeping things quirky in a way only the comic book medium could do it is so enjoyable for me that I forgive him all of his 'minor' flaws. I think Eryk was right in that he represents the spirit of the Silver Age better than any other writer (besides perhaps Cooke), in that he is all about a sense of "creation" in everything he does, even when he is telling types of stories that have been told before.

You're point about not connecting with his characters is well taken. I think that's one of his "minor" flaws--in that it doesn't bother me that much. It's quite in the tradition of the Golden Age and Silver Age (of which I'm a fan), and it's all up to the reader to 'read into' the stories to the degree they connect with the characters. What I mean is, Morrison wastes no time with quiet character moments. If you, as the reader, connect with a character from his stories, that says more about you than the story. And I'm okay with that. But I do understand that might not be everyone's cup of tea. Yet, I do think he does have characters undergo a journey in all of his stories. Seven Soldiers really showcased this, with Zatanna, Guardian, Shining Knight and the rest really having some character development, though it was more subtle. In a way, his storylines are more grand and epic and his character development is more restrained--but at times, equally as powerful.

Now despite all this praise, sometimes Grant has some misses for me. Final Crisis was just awful to me. I get what he was trying to do but in my mind, he didn't accomplish it. And I loved his Batman stories with Bruce; but his Batman stories with Dick are leaving me cold. Yes, I require a better story to convince me to accept Dick as Batman that perhaps is unfair. But I expected Grant do actually do that. And he didn't. I actually have been in a 'burnt out on Grant' mode myself lately, to the degree I did not continue with "Joe the Barbarian" at Vertigo.

Still, despite my current 'burnt out' mode on Grant, I still love him as a writer. I think I'd probably rank him in my top 10. I think the ratio of "blown away by the amazingness to noticing the flaws" is just higher than Geoff's for me. Such a ratio is far too hard to calculate with mere words.

Grant Morrison also wrote All-Star Superman #6--which is the best single issue comic book story of the last 10+ years, perhaps the last 20 years. I have yet to see something that tops or matches it.

PS - I thought Grant's X-Men run was terrific. Naysayers can't be trusted.

I'm trying to think of Grant Morrison books I've read and all I can come up with is JLA, All-Star Superman, Final Crisis, Seven Soldiers and Batman.

Of them, Seven Soldiers is definitely my favourite. If it hadn't been for the disappointing final issue it would probably be my favourite comics project of all time.

And I think this book(s) was dripping in the characterisation you say Morrison currently lacks Lard Lad. Zatanna, Bulleteer, Manhattan Guardian, Frankenstein, Klarion... these characters came to life for me. All that and this project had some of the highest high-concepts I've ever read. Characters, concepts, plotting, storytelling, art - this project knocked it out of the park IMO.

Batman was also a total WIN for me. I'd been secretly denying it to myself because I was always kind of anti him before... but I honestly think that Batman under Grant Morrison was my favourite book on the stands during his run. It was truly, truly exciting and RIP was a masterpiece IMO. (Batman & Robin has been less good but still excellent.) But this is another example of Morrison bringing the characterisation goods. I never cared one iota about Bruce Wayne before Morrison started writing him.

All-Star Superman was of course excellent and deserving of all it's accolades. Though I agree with you that it wasn't perfect. I can't quite put my finger on what about it was less than perfection but I must admit that something about the project left me a little cold. Like a wonderful work of art that you can admire but not get totally excited by. I still really enjoyed it though.

Final Crisis was of course drek and only gets worse the more I remember of it (which is not much - for a Grant Morrison book it was very light on ideas. Darkseid died, New Gods started infecting people, Barry Allen came back, Superman sang a song... did anything else happen?). A shame because it had started with some promise.

JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

^ Having said all that, I did buy every issue and I'm tempted to reread them now that I'm more of a Morrison fan than I was then to see if my opinion on these issues hasn't changed somewhat.

I'd actually put Morrison and Johns on a par as far as my enjoyment of their stories goes. Morrison impresses me more and I can usually tell I'm reading higher quality writing when I'm reading one of his books. But Johns tends to use the parts of the DCU that appeal to me more and has a uniformity to his stories that (though a bit samey sometimes) often provide the perfect 15 minutes of enjoyment I'm looking for when I want to just kick back with a good comic book and forget about the world for a while.

He wrote at least one Batman arc where Deadshot went after David Cain. I thought there was more, but maybe not.

If you don't think Morrison can do character work, you need to sit down and read We3, Vinamarama and Seaguy back to back and have your mind seriously changed.

"We3" in particular is a masterpiece and it all rests on giving these barely communicative animals such strong personalities that you get totally involved with the story.

Though I haven't read We3, I didn't mean to imply that character work was non-existent in Morrison's work. I feel, for example, that what I've read of his Animal Man was pretty strong in that regard. It's just in my opinion it's a pretty common complaint I have about his stuff. Obviously, I haven't read every single thing he's written, and there are some notable exceptions in what I have read.

Again, my other general complaint is that I have no idea what's going on in certain parts of his stories, and it usually seems rooted in his storytelling methods, as opposed to being a set-up for a mystery resolution at some point. Final Crisis was rife with this problem, and Batman R.I.P. had some of those issues as well (though I enjoyed the latter overall). I found Seven Soldiers: Zatanna confusing as well.

It's not that I'm not up for a challenging read. It's that I can rarely crack whatever code it is he uses to tell his story. It reads as if he understands what he's trying to do, but he may not realize some or most people don't. There's almost always that aspect to his scripts.

Just for the sake of comparison, I'll give you Alan Moore's run on Promethea. That was an extremely challenging book on very many levels that threw tons of huge concepts at the reader continually. But challenging as it was, I was able to follow what Moore was trying to do despite its complexity. And that's a tribute to how Alan can present concepts that are big, challenging and entertaining reads without losing me on the way. (It also has some great characterization!) If you haven't checked it out, try Promethea some time and imagine how Grant might have written it.

Other works like All-Star Superman and Batman & Robin are pretty clear and cohesive but lack an extra punch somewhere. Could be a lack of characterization, could be an ordinariness. Hard to say. But generally, I rarely put a Grant comic down completely satisfied.

Some examples of complete satisfaction being achieved were his first two or three Doom Patrol arcs and his spotlight issue on Crazy Jane from same. Certain issues of All-Star were absolutlely perfect, too.

JLA I'm overall satisfied with because his Big Ideas and storytelling style were understandable and rarely lost me. His characterizations could have definitely been better, but I feel he did his job enough conveying their personalities and attitudes when considering it was a team book consisting almost entirely of characters who had their own books. And for better or worse, his take on Batman there was pretty damn iconic!

Morrison's JLA work is peppered with characterization, but it was a book about big scale comic book action. He did very well with big idea like Wonder World and One Million, and yet, he had his small moments - WW in the war of Angels story, GL, Steel and Huntress in the aforementioned One Million and World War III stories.

A lot of his work works best when you read the complete story. He does a fine job of breaking Batman and Robin into arcs, but Final Crisis is a more epic story, grander on the large and small scales.


Where Grant brings the innovation to comics, Geoff Johns brings the heart. He's very much invested in the nostalgia of it all. While he does drive forward- creating a new JSA and the multi-colouored Lanterns, he's not breaking new ground, merely expanding on it. But when he does that, he does it well.

It's interesting that we joke about Johns or Bendis writing all the books for their respective publishers. They do high profile work, and they are often heavily involved in the big events. But look at their output, are they doing any more work than any other writer?

Johns himself has said he can do 4 books a month- GL, Flash, Brightest Day, and the occasional mini. Matt Fraction over at Marvel will be writing Uncanny X-men, Thor, and Invincable Iron Man. They deliver similar quality work; why aren't we all talking about Fraction's contribution to Marvel's direction?

Bendis is writing 2 Avengers titles and Ultimate Spiderman, along with the Ultimate mini du jour. Gail Simone has a new welcome to Tranquility book coming out, she writes S6, and Johns asked her to revive Birds of Prey. Mayhap we will be talking about her renovating the DCU in 5 years.

I'd say it's not just so much their output, Ceej, it's about how their respective company's events and dominant creative directions largely take their cues from stuff set up in and branching out from their books. It's really hard to argue against Bendis being the mastermind at Marvel the last couple of years thru Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Siege. Geoff is a slightly more recent equivalent with how he set up New Krypton and Blackest Night.

Does that make more sense?

Gai has a new WELCOME TO TRANQUILITY coming out?!?! HOT DAMN-- loved the first run!

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps fandom gives Bendis too much credit in guiding Marvel.

Based on his workload of the last few years, it's obvious things he wants to do are more likely to get green lit by Joe Q.

Based on the sales of his titles of the last few years, it's obvious other writers and artists will want to do things spinning out of his stories: obviously a writer looking for work would up his chances of approval if he wants to do a Luke Cage story or Dr. Voodoo story since they spin right out of New Avengers.

But he has no real position at Marvel that lets him guide the company. The real guiding force at Marvel is Joe Q; Bendis just his ear and is able to rally the other writers. But note Bendis has absolutely zero involvement with Spider-Man, the Hulk or the X-Men. Bendis also has limited interaction with Thor, Cap and Iron Man--he only has ever interacted with them through the Avengers.

What happens is Bendis creates an awesome story for his own Avengers comics; Joe Q sees it as a money-making scheme; other writers are trying to get projects green-lit and so say: "how about I take Bendis latest story and do the Fantastic Four / Iron Man / X-Men / whatever side of it in a miniseries".

In other words, the whole point of this post, is that Bendis has "implied power" at Marvel (even to him). He does not have "actual power". I suspect, based on interviews, he's come up with other ideas and the other writers have shot him down. We just never hear about it.

Bendis, like Johns, also has a huge message board with hundreds (thousands?) of followers who kind of see him as the Supreme Hydra of their community.

But not that long ago, Millar had that same power at Marvel and suddenly it seems as if he doesn't anymore. An FF run that wasn't a huge sales hit, Ultimate Comics that no longer sell or recieve any acclaim at all (from critics or fans), and he's focusing on independent stuff. He's making more money, sure, but not at Marvel...and so he's quickly gone from a guiding light at the Companay to a writer who I suspect would have to try to find a place to fit in when he's next ready to.

Bendis destroyed the Avengers, which did have an effect on the Spider Man books (huge effects), Cap and several others. Like Geoff at DC, Bendis has pretty much had the point man position for the Marvel universe since Avengers Disassembled.

That is not necessarily a bad thing for some fans, and is a bad thing for others. By that I mean Geoff and Bendis are the ones seemingly leading the charge, and get the most shots lobbed at them.

It really looks like the real issue here is Didio and Joey Q. These two have been pulling strings for a while now...Didio has been returning DC to a semblance of the Silver Age, while Joey Q has made changes everywhere.

I do not agree with either on all of their decisions and ideas...they have both had some very good things happen under their watch, but have a lot more patience for DC and Didio returning to the classics (for me at least) than what JQ did to Spider-Man, the mess that is the X-Men, and the lack of real diversity that Marvel shows in their overall publishing. DC has a full fledged kids line, Vertigo, Wildstorm, plus other areas they publish. Marvels seems anemic by comparison.

Point of Clarification:

Well I consider Vertigo an entirely seperate comic book company that has the same ownership as DC Comics. Didio and Co. aren't allowed to touch it and that's how it should be; ipso facto, "DC" can't claim any of the credit Vertigo gets for all its great series.

Saying they are the same company is akin to saying Coca Cola and GEICO are the same company because of shared ownership. So long as they operate independently, I like to treat them as such.

2nd Point:

I hated Avengers Dissessembled. But did it destroy the Avengers? No, not really.

The Avengers were already broken. Austen was horrific. Geoff was only 'meh' (granted, the Bill Jemas write for the trade era was in full effect) and even Busiek lingered for years. The series hadn't been relevant or great in a long time. And the Avengers is my favorite Marvel franchise besides Spider-Man.

While I did not like the New Avengers at first, cringing at the inclusion of Wolverine and Spider-Man, annoyed at Bendis using his favorites Spider-Woman and Luke Cage, it grew on me.

And here's the result:

- the Avengers franchise is now the top seller in comic books

- People actually care and are interested again and its spilled into Iron Man, Thor and others.

- Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye and the rest are basically all back. It took awhile but its happened. The only Avengers who took a huge hit in Dissembled were Jack of Hearts & Ant-Man (neither really Avengers), and Scarlet Witch (who obviously will have several more stories to come) and the Vision (who is in Young Avengers). Only the last (the Vision) still bothers me.

If you want to call it anything, Marvel pulled a huge "bait & switch" on fandom in general that took several years. The idea that they destroyed the Avengers created some interest in the series but all they really destroyed was Avengers Mansion. Now the sales & interest is there and they are bringing the traditional Avengers back to the fold gradually (begun some time ago and now really kicking off).

In the process, they've created a renewed sense of interest in Hawkeye and some others; they've got people interested in Luke Cage and Spider-Woman for the first time ever (like me); and they've got FOUR or FIVE Avengers titles ongoing!

Spider-Man in the Avengers is something I've never wanted. I wouldn't mind if it ended now. But you know what? Bendis writes him so damn good in the Avengers its hard to complain.

Wolverine in the Avengers isn't what I want or any of us want. But guess what--he's here to stay. Here's a flagship character at Marvel for 30 years now and as much a part of their top-line as Cap, Spidey or anyone. JSA fans might have hated Superman and Batman joining the JLA in the 60's on a more permanent basis but it was and remains something that will continue hereafter permanently. None of us have to like it. Some of us can refuse to accept it. But all I can say is: shrug it off, it's okay. He barely ever does anything anyway except appear on covers.

I think Bendis & Marvel have either by design or accident created a brilliant plan in making the Avengers the most important team franchise in comic books. And it's worked! And the quality is actually there! It's not only a sales success, the stories and art are pretty fantastic!

Unless Geico starts selling it's own cola, you're argument drops short of the goal line. They all have the DC comics bullet on them, Geico doesn't have the Coke logo...not the same product at all. DCU and Vertigo are sold to the same customer...comic fans.

Didio may not have control of Vertigo, but that wasn't my point when I was talking about "overall" publishing. The overall point was I think DC puts out a loot more good things than Marvel. My opinion.

Regarding the New Avengers, I've read quite a few trades of theirs, and enjoyed most of them...but ya know what, they're not really the Avengers. They're who Bendis wanted to play with. Plain and simple, and JQ gave him the go ahead. That's cool, he runs the joint...so be it. I'd actually love to see Bendis back on Daredevil, and give him a Heroes for Hire title to play with his other toys. Cage is great under his direction and I would probabl think about picking up a seeries about him with Bendis writing it.

I get what you're saying Dev, but if you're talking from that high corporate angle, than we're getting well beyond DC vs. Marvel. We're getting closer to Time-Warner vs. Disney. Because the go-betweens from Didio to Karen Berger are all people you and I have never heard of.

Marvel releases like 10 titles a month of comic book adaptations of classic stories like the Odyssey, Pride & Prejudice, Blackbeard, etc. Some of them are written by the legendary Roy Thomas. They are a huge part of the Marvel solicits every month. I've never bothered to check one out or discuss them, but it shows Marvel is doing other things.

Marvel also has a kids line, complete with an adaptation of their TV show, Super Squad (or something). Again, I don't know much or care much about it, but it exists.

The only thing Marvel doesn't have is a Vertigo. But even there, they have something: they have the Icon imprint, which is like their own Image Comics. And that has a wide range of genres and themes. It also has some really great comic books: Criminal & Incognito, Powers, Kick-Ass, Casanova, various artsy stuff by David Mack and so forth. Not quite on Vertigo's level but its not trying to be Vertigo.

I'll also (sadly) give you this awful prophecy. One day, someone high up at DC Entertainment will realize the Vertigo books aren't great seller and somehow let the wolves into the Vertigo village--and Didio and the rest will love every second of it. And on that day, Vertigo will die. But hopefully Karen Berger will be snatched up by a smart publisher like IDW or Dynamite or Image or someone, and all of the writers & artists with any sense of loyalty and dignity will follow her and it can continue without the DC logo. Do I want that to happen? Never. Will it? Probably.

I do give Marvel props with the novel adaptations. As well as the Stephen King stuff they have been doing...it's definately a step towards better things for them.

One of the main thing I hope that DC is going to do with the big three (Didio, Johns and Lee) in power now is that one voice will not be pushing one vision. That there will be a mixture of elements from all three.

I too fear for the long term safety of Vertigo, but as long as Berger is there...I don't see that changing any time soon. I thinnk they're afraid of her at this poin t. If/When she ever leaves though, God help us all.