Note- by page 2, I start posting very long reviews on Spider-Man’s various series over the years. Please don’t let that hinder any discussion, as that is not what this thread is about. I hope no one minds that I post them, since I love talking about Spidey so much.-- thanks, Cobalt

As I've said before, Spider-Man is my other huge love in comics besides the Legion. My father and I own all of his appearances, and I've read them all at least five times over--I used to read the entire run of Spider-man every summer from age 11 to 16 in chronilogical order from Amazing Fantasy #15 to the current issue.

I consider myself more knowledgable about Spider-man than any other thing in comics, and can answer any question people have!

A few things to get the topic started: I totally prefer Gwen Stacey to any of Spidey's loves, including Mary Jane. I love Doc Ock and the classic villians, but the Hobgoblin is my favorite villian of all time. I wish Marvel would consider long-time fans and continuity and show obscure Spider-man supporting cast members and villians like Dr. Jonas Harrow and Sha Shan.

Anyone else absolutely love Spidey?

Oh, and for the sake of writing about Spidey, I plan to give reviews of every era of Spider-man on the nights that I get bored

CK - Spider-man was surely my first favorite superhero. I still remember buying Spidey Super Stories when I was little. I don't really follow the title now (I only keep up with the Legion unfortunately) but I always liked that Peter has been allowed to "grow up" more than most other heroes. I hated that Marvel made him split up with MJ for a while there although I guess he is "the hero who could be you" and a rocky marriage is in keeping with Peter's luck over the years.

Did you like the movie? I thought it was really good and can't wait for the sequel to open.

I very much like the motivation behind Spider-man... "With great power comes great responsibility."

I'm pretty much a fan of all the animated versions and I came pretty late (1998) to the comics "game" so I don't think I'll be going back and getting all the Spidey AR appearances.

I am very much into the Ultimate Spider-man... along with Legion it is my only "must" have title. Everything else can wait.

I wasn't too happy about the Ultimate Six trade that just came out... it just seemed that the story was all set up and no pay off. It needed more Spidey in it too. At the very least it should have had more Ultimates in it. That's saying alot because I don't get why everybody else is fawning over The Ultimates. It just wasn't all that good.

Anyway... I like Spidey too. :spider-man:

BRING BACK BEN REILLY!!! :Spider-man2:

And here I thought I was stirring the pot by saying how much I liked Ultimate Spidey... and Povins out does me with a clone remark.

Nice.

I loved the movie the first time I saw it. After watching it a couple of times it really has a few, what I call, "SeeThreepio" minutes. These are the times when the movie just makes you shake your head in shame at how awful the moment really is. You know like when Threepio is saying, "I've fallen and I can't get up." Just plain horrible.

The Spider-man movie hit me like that when the Goblin knocks Spider-man out just so that he can try and talk him into joining his side. Sorry I ain't buying that one. I also hate it when the New Yorkers on the bridge say, "You mess with one of us, you're messing with all of us." Just too hokey. Other than that the movie is faithful to what I know to be Spider-man.

I've also got my two cents on the Clone Saga too, that I'll get to one day !

I liked the movie a lot, it was kind of like seeing my favorite super-hero and childhood "friend" finally get his due. It made me feel like a little kid, and was exactly as I would have wanted to see it done (with the one exception of the Goblin's costume).

Peter, Harry and MJ were great in it, and the ending with Pete and MJ was perfect.

And I really like Ultimate Spider-man too.

Some threads don't get no respect *sigh*

{/RodneyDangerfield OFF}

I totally agree about those two moments. I also didn't really buy that Gobie blew a hole in Peter's house, scared Aunt May and ... what? Just flew away? There was no reason he didn't just kill her. I thought the Willem Dafoe mirror scene was a tad hokey too.

I liked the first movie a lot, but it actually faltered for me once he put the costume on. The retelling of the origin was great stuff, but the second half of the movie seemed to lack a story -- mostly because the Green Goblin didn't really have much motivation after he killed those Oscorp guys (hence the "join me" rooftop scene). The effects were amazing (spectacular even) though.

Regarding the Spider-Man comics...
I've been an on again/off again fan of the character for as long as I can remember. Which isn't to say my affection waxes and waynes, I mostly wait til there's a good creative team that piques my interest (Iron Man is like that for me too btw).

I loved the Romita run back in the day. Spidey's epic struggle with the Juggernaut is one of my fav Spidey stories of all time (the thematic followup drawn by Frenz (I forgot who wrote it) where Spidey battles Firelord was less impressive though).

I also really liked the book when he got the symbiote costume and like most fans, I thought MacFarlane was the bomb when he first came on the scene (I had lost interest by the time he started his adjectiveless title).

I loved the first Hobgoblin storyline, but in retrospect he wasn't that interesting a character on his own. I think it was the mystery that was the most intriguing part. Still, he deserved a much better death. Who's the current Hobgoblin?

I don't remember much about Gwen Stacy, but I'm curious -- how long was she actually around? Did she start out as Peter's girl from the get go or was their hookup a long process?

Ultimate Spider-Man is excellent. Good for kids and adults, I say. (Wish there were more like that.) Get these into the hands of kids you know!

The early Spider-Man stuff...love it. And the covers!

The New Yorker's bridge comment was a Post Nine Eleven moment, probably added late in the movie's production. With three thousand dead in that city, I gave it a pass, however strained it may have been.

I have comments and answers to everyone, but dammit, I have work now ! And reviews on every Spider-man era, creative team and issue ever !

But I will say that I agree with Teeds! Get USM in the hands of every kid/early teen you know! An excellent comic for all ages.

Aw hell: Gwen Stacey was around from #31 to #122, and was a character that anyone could fall in love with! More on her later...

Ultimate Spider-Man is probably the best comic book out there right now that is for all ages. While I wouldn't reccomend Ultimates or Ultimate X-Men to a young kid, I'd definately give USM (or Ultimate FF) to a pre-teen. The stories are fun and charming, and Peter, MJ and Gwen are beyond likable. The title is so refreshing, I just can't get enough of it. And Bagley is doing the best artwork in his carreer.

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's consistently fun and good, and can be really Amazing sometimes.

Personally I think Spider-Girl is the best comic for all ages.

Don't diss the Spider-Man movie. It was my 1st team-up with him.

The Amazing Spider-Man: the Ditko era Part I (AF #15 to #ASM 18)

Undoubtedly, these are some of the best stories ever written in the comic book artform. There isn't much I can add to what's been said over the years: Great concept, great motivation ("with great power..."), great character that can remind any person that despite their flaws, they can be heroic.

Here's some other things I like:

-Steve Ditko. Although he might get a bad wrap on this board b/c of his Legion run, his Spider-man art is some of the best to ever grace a comic book. He is my Dad's all-time favorite artist, and drew my Dad's eyes away from Kirby's FF and Swans and Infantino, making my Dad a Spider-Man fan for life. His work here (and on Capt. Atom and Blue Beetle) has such a unique style, with different poses and cool tight panel layouts, that I can't get enough. Also, he is one of the few silver age artists to purposely draw ugly characters that weren't villians, to make Spidey live in a realistic world.

Ditko is *the* Spidey artist of all-time. Then Romita. And then all the rest. I love his art--I mean, who isn't drawn in when we see Spidey fighting the Scorpion or unmasked by Doc Ock.

-The recurring cast was good too. Although the first seventeen issues were establishing the recurring cast without too many huge changes, it was great seeing Liz evolve into someone likable, see Betty deal with Peter's strangeness, Flash be Peter's rival and then JJJ be Spideys. Jonah Jameson is one of the best supporting characters in any comic, and very original (at least, he seemed so to me). Although he was a real jerk in these issues, I like the way he (and Flash) have evolved over the decades.

-The villians. Spider-man has the best villians in the Marvel U, hands down. And drawn by Ditko and dialogued by Lee sure helped . I love the early villians, like Doc Ock, the Vulture, Kraven, and especially the Lizard and Mysterio. Mysterio just looks so cool, and the Lizard was so menacing in #5. Doc Ock was by far Spidey's nemesis, and when he took of Spidey's mask in #11, it was a great scene.

-I really like how the Torch grew into being Spidey's rival and then friend. Probably the best Marvel U friendship IMO.

-#16 to #18. This was definately the best Spidey story up to that point, and one of the best ever (#31 to #33 is the best Spidey story ever IMO, and the 2nd best comic book story ever too, only beaten by FF #51). Aunt May being sick, Spidey hiding from the Sandman, the Green Goblin, the Torch, the Enforcers, it had everything--including Aunt May really coming through for Peter and giving him a big speech. When my father was a boy, his mother had cancer and was also bed-ridden, and this story really hit home for him. The dialogue is Stan Lee at his finest.

- The Covers - these are some of the best, ever. We have a display board in my basement that allows us to put up about 200 comics, and we are always putting up the early Spider-man. The covers are beautiful, and really show how Ditko shined, and how Spider-man looked so different from other super-heroes. I love the Lizard cover, the Mysterio cover, and the Green Goblin/Torch cover. They're *all* good.

-Quick fanboy moment: I like the Green Goblin too, and how he suddenly grew into Spidey's nemesis. Undoubtedly, Doc Ock was Spidey's first arch-nemesis, and the two issues in a row where he fights him, including unmasking him, really hammer this home. With #14, the Goblin becomes the new nemesis for most of the 20's, then paving the way for Doc Ock's return in #31 as the surprise villian. And then of course, the 30's end with the Goblin's return for the famous story where he learns Spidey's identity. These two are the true arch-nemesis of Spider-man, and the Goblin dying later on only made him a better--a villian with more mystique, the one who killed Gwen. I also like how the Hobgoblin took over the role of the GG (unlike Harry or Dr. Bart Hamilton, who didn't last long), as Spidey's other main villian. Venom doesn't really do it for me, for reasons I won't get into yet.

With #18, Spider-man truly was one of the best comic books in the Silver Age, and shows why he'd stay so popular for the next forty years.

Reading your rundown of the Lee/Ditko era only reminds me how innovative those early stories were. And Spidey probably has the best rogues gallery in comicdom (even better than Batman because aside from the top three or four, there are a lot of losers in that bunch).

The Lee/Ditko Era Part II (ASM #19-#38)

I like to break up the Ditko era into two groups, the first ending with #18, and the second ending, of course, with Ditko's departure. Although he wasn't there an incredibly long period of time, Ditko's art was the defining Spider-man, and no amount of praise will ever be enough. As with the other stories, there is little I can add to how great these Lee/Ditko stories are, so I'll just continue pointing out the things that I really like.

-With #18, the greatest Spidey story so far had been told, and Lee/Ditko were on a role that would last through the entire 20's. The stories in the 20's, particularly the two Scorpion stories rounding them out and the Green Goblin/Crime Master story are incredible. Issues #31-33 are what I consider to be the 2nd greatest comic book story of all time, right after FF #51. There is no better Spider-Man story ever, and it truly could have been the last Spider-man story if it needed to be--it really brought Peter into a new place, and made him the stronger, more mature person he had always wanted to be. After #33 though, the last Ditko stories were a little lacking IMO, although in hindsight, I'd prefer to have stories like this than half of what's on the market today.

-#31-33: continuing what I just said, this is IMO the best Spidey story ever. Aunt May dying, everything going wrong, and a tired Spidey struggling to get her the serum. After countless battles, a surprise battle with Doc Ock, his arch-nemesis suddenly back again, and then more battles, Spidey is stuck under those pipes and steel. Those scenes are riveting. Peter finally manages to get up for Aunt May and keep going when he was sure he was beaten. Truly amazing. My words can't do it justice, so I'll stop now .

My father can't even talk about these three issues without crying.

-The Green Goblin and the Crime Master. The Green Goblin really came into his own during these issues, assuming his place as Spidey's new arch-nemesis. Ditko made him seem to be the perfect counter-part to Spidey, agile and brillant, strong and cunning. The mystery of his identity is great to read too--although it seems that it wasn't truly as riveting as today's comics are. Ditko was adamant that Spidey should not know who the Goblin was, while Lee wanted it to be a supporting character, like Foswell in #10 as the Big Man.

It's said that Ditko believed it was ludicrous for Spider-Man to know who these people continually were, which is why the Crime Master ended up being a crook he'd never heard of. Lee, however, knew that realism needed to take a back seat to drama sometimes, and began introducing Norman Osborn towards the end of Ditko's run. They say this was one of the small reasons that added to Ditko wanting to leave Spider-Man and Marvel.

The Crime Master himself was pretty cool too, although he only lasted two issues. I really like how the Hobgoblin and the Rose brought back this flavor in the 80's for an extended forty issues instead of two.

-Other villians: the Beetle showed up, the Circus of Crime, the Molten Man, Kraven again, and a few more goofy villians at the end. But one really good villian was the Scorpion, who seemingly is never used correctly in the last twenty years. He truly is menacing in his first two appearances, and really gives Spidey a run for his money, beating him twice in one issue before finally losing. He could have really been made into a Dr. Octupus/Sabertooth type villian with the right writers, but I guess thats how comics go.

-Supporting cast: interestingly, Peter really got a huge overhaul in supporting cast around #28-31. Although Betty and Jonah stayed (and the Bugle), Betty and Peter called it quits for good, and then decided to stay friends, and then Betty remained as a supporting character. This ended the thirty issue long Peter/Betty romance, and in a way that seemed satisfying to both of them and the readers. IMO, Betty becomes even more likable once she's Peter's friend. In addition, two other Bugle employees become prominent, one being Ned Leeds, Betty's new boyfriend. While he started out as Peter's rival, he turns out to be a great guy, which is both realistic and good for Peter, as he becomes a long-time friend of his (and a good plot device as a reporter). The other is Frederick Foswell, who comes back during the Goblin/Crime Master story under suspicion, until we eventually learn that he assumes the guise of "Patch" to find out info on the underworld and try to learn Spidey's identity. Later, when he starts trying to connect Peter to Spidey, he gets more intersting.

Aunt May and Aunt Anna also stick around, although Peter says goodbye to Liz Allen from his supporting cast for over a hundred issues. This is strangely realistic as she goes away to another college, although Peter gets stuck with Flash again. Flash remains a jerk throughout Ditko's run, but I really like how the two will grow to be friends under Romita. And hints of Mary Jane continue, although we don't see her quite yet. And Doc Connors shows up every once in awhile to help Spidey, which is a great touch. Nods to the past were always one of the strong points of a growing mythos.

The other two additions are some of the best ever IMO: Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. Gwen is my favorite of Peter's loves, and her character is great from the beginning: mature, smart, sexy, and very independent. She also wonders why Peter is so quiet and cowardly, and Lee is great at showing her wondering why she is attracted to Peter. Harry is good too, although he starts out as a jerk. Lee really lets him open up in the Romita/Goblin story up next, and we finally get to see Peter get a best friend. And we get to see glimpses of Professor Warren too, although just barely.

The Covers: Some of the best ever. The two Scorpion covers are amazing, especially the latter one under-water--truly menacing. The Goblin covers are great too, we own #22 in Mint condition and it looks AMAZING. The Circus of Crime issue is great, and #33 with Spidey lifting the metal off his shoulders invokes an emotion in me that I'm not even sure what to call (emotional nostalgia?). My father hates the cover to #30 with the thief and the water tower, but I find it to be very dynamic (he was just spoiled as a youngster with Kirby and Ditko).

-When Ditko left Spider-Man, it was the most upsetting comics experience that my Dad and his friends ever had. My dad prepared to quit comics all together, some of his friends actually did. His art was truly one of a kind, and no one could imagine Spider-Man without it. #38 really marks the end of the first era of Spider-Man, and the shift to Romita changed a lot of things: clearer, more beautiful art, more beautiful women, Peter getting friends, Peter having women fight over him, Peter in college [or at least really showing us his life there]. It was a big transition for a title that no one believed would last more than a few years. Still, one look at the next story with the Goblin and my father decided to stick around. I'm glad he did.

Up next, true believers: Romita! The Green Goblin! The Kingpin! Gwen Stacy! Mary Jane Watson!

Well, I'm not sure if anyone is reading these, but I like talking about Spider-Man

The Romita Years (ASM #39-90)

The change from Ditko to Romita's art is about as stark as they come. Although this may have been a nightmare to many Spidey fans in the 60's, it certainly doesn't bother me. Romita's art is truly beautiful, and it's true about what they say: Romita could draw the prettiest girls. He could also draw one heck of a fight scene, and his issues with Stan are amazing.

-The Goblin/Spidey battle of #39-40. With Ditko gone, Stan pulled out all the stops and got right to it. The Goblin is Norman Osbourne and he knows Peter is Spidey. Truly classic, everyone should read it, my comments will only be redundant . The other great part about this story though, is that Peter finally gets a friend his age.

-Harry. I have a soft spot for Harry, and I miss him now. He was really Peter's best friend, and his first real friend his age. I thought the way they shared an apartment together was soooo cool when I was 12, and Harry really gave Pete the warm doses of friendship and harsh reality checks he needed throughout this era. I'm overjoyed he's in the movies, and unlike Norman, Gwen or Aunt May, I have and still want him back from the dead.

-Gwen Stacey- under Romita, Gwen became the true love of Peter's life, and remains to this day my favorite one. She was perfect, both smart and beautiful, but also a caring person who genuinely wanted to always do the right thing. Of course we wanted her to win over Mary Jane, Gwen was the best comic book girlfriend I've ever read!

-Mary Jane- MJ was also a great character, although a bit of an airhead and a little flimsy. But she was also a sweetie, and a much needed dose of fun into Peter's life. She was also great as a plot device for getting into trouble! With her, Harry and Gwen grounded as Peter's main best friends, Peter had finally stopped being the outcast he always was. A change, but a welcome one, showing Spidey's progression as a character.

-His other supporting cast members made the book as well. I can't think of any other run on a comic with a more dynamic and intersting supporting cast of characters: Flash, growing from an idiot to a war veteran/mature person who became Pete's friend; JJJ, the ever present menace in Spidey's life; Robbie, Betty, Ned and the Bugle staff, John Jameson, Prof. Warren, Dr. Connors, Aunt May, Aunt Anna, Randy Roberston and many more. One of the best characters though was Captain Stacy, one of the great men in Peter's life and (to steal from another reviewer) the conscience of the series for this whole run. I miss him a lot too, even though it's four hundred issues later, and enjoyed seeing him there for both Peter and Spidey.

-Constant dynamic action. That was pretty much Stan's go of it, and the energy in these issues is non-stop. The Rhino, the Lizard, the Shocker, the new Vulture, Kraven, the Vultures against one another, the Chameleon, etc. Consistent action and fun adventures with something always threatening to break apart Peter's life.

-Dr. Octupus and the Kingpin. The two big enemies of Spidey during this era. Both of them had three great stories with Spidey IIRC, the Kingpin's being all great. First we get the classic Spidey quitting, coming back, Foswell dying story and then two more, the final being a three way battle with the Schemer. Corny as that may have been, it's still a blast to read. The Doc Ock stories are very good too, the story with Spidey joining him being one of the best Doc Ock stories ever IMO.

-And then there is the Death of Captain Stacy. The first real important since Uncle Ben to die in Peter's life, Captain Stacy's death was heroic and tragic. Even more, it really marks then end to this era, since from here on in, Peter would see constant death, betrayal and sadness forever. He died telling Peter to protect Gwen, which ironically he would not do. The story itself is a great story, a classic Doc Ock/Spidey story with the noble death of Captain Stacy, and issue 90 ends with everything literally never being the same again.

-Great covers. Besides Spidey's classic turning his back in #50, there is also great Romita covers with the Shocker, the Vultures, Doc Ock, Mary Jane, etc.

-Other cool tidbits for me: John Jameson and Capt. Stacy talking about who Spidey is, and then Joe Robertson and Capt. Stacy continuing this. Spidey throwing Patch off his trail before Foswell ultimately died. The Prowler, a cool ass character that I have a huge fondness for. The place the characters always got coffee and the constant parties they'd through (including the one where Pete walked in with the mask in hand telling them he was Spidey). Flash in Viet Nam. Jonah becoming a more important part of Peter's life. And most of all, Gwen and Peter falling in love!

Great stuff!

The Final Vestiges of the Silver Age for Spidey (ASM #91-122)

After the Death of Captain Stacy, nothing was ever the same again, although it was truly the death of Gwen that ended the Silver Age for Spidey. The issues between those two had both good stories and a couple of weak stories, but the constant supporting cast is what makes this issues continue to be great. With #100, Stan departed as writer of Spidey, (although he came back for a few), and a few others artists had some runs (including Gil Kane doing a cool Gwen, Peter and Jonah in the Savage Land story with Ka-Zar and Kraven).

After Capt. Stacey's death, Spidey is now a murderer to the public, something that now truly makes him a menace. Although he never was good in the public eye, things have now really changed. The issues right after deal with repercussions for Peter and Gwen, although they finally get back together in the endings to one of the issues, since I'm sure readers were writing in and demanding it.

The return of the Goblin story and Harry's drug abuse is an amazing story in the mid 90's, and one of my favorites to this day. Peter beating up the drug dealers is a fun alternative to knowing that the Goblin is going to harm all of Peter's friends. A great, great story.

Issue 100 is a great story as well, and gives a good finish to Stan's 100 issues, although the following six-armed story with Morbius never really did it for me. The Gwen/Peter story in the Savage Land is fun, although the Gibbon, the Demolisher and some others are forgettable.

Doc Ock's return is a great story, although his new nemesis appears in the form of Hammerhead. Although at first he appears goofy (which he undoubtedly is), he's grown on me over the years, and I've come to enjoy the Doc Ock/Hammerhead stories.

From about issue #100 on, you get the feeling that Gwen and Peter should be getting married, or at least want to be getting married, which creates an anxiety when you know what #121 has in store. The rest of the supporting cast plays a major part in keeping the weaker villian plots afloat, and constant appearances by a returned Flash, Prof. Warren, Harry, MJ, the Bugle staff and others maintain the level of fun for me.

And then issue #121-122, forever placing the Green Goblin as Spidey's worst villian (although once he came back from the dead, this kind of ended). Gwen dies, and everything is different. Peter's life is now full of misery and tragedy. From here on in, there will be a lingering sadness that never really goes away until his wedding. The Goblin dies too, ruining Peter's relationship with Harry (for some time), and cements the Goblin's role as the villian who ruined everything and then died before Peter could really get any kind of revenge. A great story all in all, although I hate seeing Gwen die still. With Gwen and Norman Osbourne dead, Peter's supporting cast is changed forever and the Silver Age of Spider-man ends.

I can think of the image right now of the two cops, one an older black man and the other a young rookie, the veteran cop telling the rookie to lower his gun, he doesn't know what he's doing. It's riveting!

Some of the best Spidey stories, some of the not-so-best, but all in all, fun to read just the same!

Next: The aftermath! a changing of the guard of the supporting cast! the Jackal! Clones! the Punisher! Gerry Conway's touch of death! The Mind-worm?

I am enjoying reading these, so keep going if you will. I wish I could run out and grab some of those big "Essential" books, or better some of those paperback archives at the Barnes & Noble.

Thanks matlock !

I hear you on the Essential books and archives, I'm glad Marvel still prints these stories. If only there were some better way to market to people, especially younger children!

The Aftermath, the Jackal and some new faces (ASM #123-151)

After #122, Peter's life was never the same, and the Silver Age really did come to an end. The issues right afterwards dealt with the ramifications of 121-122, and then from #129-151, Spidey became immersed in a new saga, the Jackal Saga. Although it's hard to read the issues directly after Gwen's death, there are a lot of good stories in the Spidey-Jackal war, and they can be a fun read. However, there is a stronger amount of goofiness and a feeling of a lower standard of stories in the post Lee/Ditko/Romita years. Once you've read the entire run a few times though, you start to get over this feeling and enjoy the stories for what they are, and see them as just another part of Spidey's life.

-The Aftermath- although the stories after Gwen's death are sad, the writers do a good job at making sure we see Peter and his supporting cast deal with it. Peter is a mess, Harry is a complete mess, JJJ is outraged and wants Spidey brought in, and MJ, Flash and the rest are having trouble dealing with it. There are a lot of good scenes with Peter coming to terms with Aunt May, MJ, Joe Robertson, etc. and some intense scenes with Spidey and JJJ. The hardest part of the whole thing is the relationship between Harry and Peter goes completely sour (well, Harry and everyone), and Peter never knows it until #136. Jonah hiring Luke Cage is a bit over the top, but that never stopped him before .

-Gerry Conway's kiss of death- I laugh ever time I read one of the letters in the #130's written by a fan who is outraged at Gerry Conway and describes him as having a kiss of death. First, Gwen and Norman Osbourn die, then the Kangeroo a few issues later, and then Doc Ock and Hammerhead supposedly are blown up. However, at the time, I'm sure it must have felt that people were dropping everywhere and things were spinning wildy out of control. Add in the Vulture almost killing MJ and John Jameson turning into the Man-Wolf for the first time, and I can see how a shell-shocked fan from Gwen's death might think everything is going to hell in 1974.

-New faces- After #122, there did seem to be an influx of new faces though. This had always been the case with Spidey, although there seemed to be some particulurly memorable new faces right after: The Punisher, the Jackal (more on him later), the Tarrantula and the Man-Wolf. I love the Jackal saga, am a big fan of the Tarrantula (he is pretty cool) and the Punisher worked the best when he was a supporting cast member of Spidey IMO. There was also the long-overdue return of the Molten Man 100 issues later with a startling revelation that he was Liz Allen's step-brother (a plot device to bring her back in), and the Scorpion had another good go at Spidey. The Grizzley wasn't that memorable, although he moved along the Spidey/Jackal War, although the Mind-worm was pretty weak all around.

-The Spidey/Jackal War- The Jackal, IMO, was pretty damn awesome. After the death of the Green Goblin, Spidey found himself with a new nemesis, and another with a mysterious identity. First, we see him with the Punisher, an issue of huge firsts. Then we move right into the Jackal with Hammerhead and the Spider-Mobile. Although my father loathes the Spider-mobile, I find it kind of funny since I know it only appeared three times. Hammerhead works well, and then Dr. Octupus is thrown into the mix leading into the second big Hammerhead/Doc Ock war. Although the plot is generally silly (Doc Ock marrying Aunt May :rolleyes: ), I enjoy reading the story nonetheless. In the end, both Hammerhead and Doc Ock are blown to smithereens, leaving the Jackal in their wake. With Gobby and Doc Ock dead and the Kingpin missing since the 80's, the Jackal suddenly moves to the front of Spidey's rogue's gallery as the top villian. He also appears one more time, this time teaming up with the not so memoralbe Grizzley in a story that doesn't do much, but does manage to further the Spidey/Jackal War and maintain the mystery of the Jackal.

Professor Warren, who by now had become a pretty major member of Pete's supporting cast, is continually seen. The final revelation of what's to come (him being the Jackal) must have gotten on the nerves of Steve Ditko, although I don't mind the literary use of major coincidences (in that Peter knows yet another arch-nemesis of Spidey in real life). The do a good job though of making it connect directly to Gwen's death, adding a sense of continuity to Peter's life, in that there is one further ramification of Gwen's death: Professor Warren loses it and becomes the Jackal and puts Pete through torture yet again.

-Harry and the second Green Goblin- After #122, Harry pretty much loses it, culminating in #136-137, where he sadly becomes the Green Goblin and holds MJ, Flash and Aunt May hostage. Here, he truly emulates his father by knowing Spidey's identity and using it against him, something only his true villians could do. It's sad, especially the way the issue ends with Harry completely insane, to see Peter's one time best friend (the only kid his age who gave him a chance) have his life ruined. But, like Captain Stacy and Gwen before him (and Prof. Warren), Harry now also suffers the fate of living in a world with Spider-Man and the Green Goblin.

-With huge gaps to fill with the loss of Gwen and Harry in Pete's supporting cast, they had to do something. Flash recieved more time than ever and truly emerges as a good guy and Peter's friend, and Randy Robertson, Betty Brant and Ned Leeds get good time (Ned even being the hostage at Shea Stadium for the final Spidey/Jackal battle). Jonah and Robbie are there in full affect, and John Jameson even gets some screen time (albeit, as Man-Wolf). Aunt May and Aunt Anna do a good job and helping Peter and the rest grieve. The big return though, is Liz Allen to the fold, who comes back in #134 and stays among Peter's friends for the duration of his life. She immediately fits in and rounds out the supporting crew. MJ also seems to finally achieve some character growth and is shown as being more sensitive than she was ever before, although she still maintains some airhead qualities. The writers should have waited for some time before giving Peter a new love, but I guess it makes sense that Pete and MJ would seek consolement from each other and a relationship would emerge. It never does feel right though, the first time they are really together. And although there was some speculation about a Pete/Liz relationship, this was never explored (and probably a good idea--if Liz was seen as a Gwen replacement, she would have been hated).

-Clones and the final Jackal fight- After some twenty issues of grieving and Jackal/Spidey fights, it comes down to the nitty gritty in the 140's. First Mysterio, the Scorpion and a trip to France ensue, until Peter comes face to face with the shock of all shockers: Gwen Stacy. Or her clone at least. This is done extrememly well IMO, since Peter is beside himself in anger and grief. Before anything can be settled, the Tarrantula (a favorite of mine) attacks and he and the Jackal wreak havoc on Spidey's life (the Jackal never fights Spidey alone). After whipping the Tarantula, Spidey searches for the Gwen clone and a kidnapped Ned Leeds and ends up at Shea stadium where the Jackal presents his newest partner: a Spider-Man clone.

The saga ends great (as well as it could) and the Jackal is revealed as Professor Warren, the Spidey clone retains his mantra ('great power, great responsibilty') and sacfrices himself. The Gwen clone, it seems, will live on somewhere else, although there is a sense of closure in Peter's life for the first time since #122, as Professor Warren and the two clones move on. This early clone saga is good and I think should be read without the future knowledge that a five year clone saga is thirty years in the future. The best part of it is the final issue, #151 (?), where Dr. Connors tests Peter to see if he is the clone or the real Spidey, and Peter is smart enough to tear the results up. After all, he doesn't need to know if he's a 'clone' or 'real'--he knows in his heart that he's Spider-man and is ready to continue his battle.

With Captain Stacy, Gwen, Harry, Norman Osbourn and Professor Warren all gone and the Jackal, the Goblin and Doc Ock all dead, Spidey must now wondwer "where do we go from here?" There were of course, still a wide variety of threats to come his way, and a lot of twists and turns in the supporting cast. The stories are still fun and the art is still good, although it seems that so many artists followed Romita's style for a long time, that it's difficult to tell off-hand if Romita is drawing or if someone else is.

So, "where did it go from there"? Well, with a second Spidey book on the way (not counting Marvel Team-Up), there were plenty of places...

I still have 3 battered digest/paperback size reprint books that reprinted a lot of the early Lee/Ditko issues. (I also have one each of the Hulk and FF.) I wish that format would get another go 'round. I also got into the Legion through some Digests.

Where Do We Go From Here?: Part I (ASM #152-200)

After the Spidey/Jackal War, Peter's life continued with many twists and turns, although there always seemed to be a sense of being lost in it. It seemed like a lot of writers couldn't find their way on the book, although there are still some memorable fun stories throughout. By #200, there were some major changes to the supporting cast, and the progression of all these characters continued nicely. As of #152, all of the characters that had survived were still in place, but by #200, there would be little to nothing of a supporting cast.

At ASM #167, a new Spider-Man book, Peter Parker: the Spectaculur Spider-man cam out, and had another whole slew of Spidey tales ensued. I'll review those in another post.

I'll go over things chronologically for the first time:

-Ned and Betty's wedding- after one hundred issues and roughly nine years, the long-awaited wedding of Ned and Betty finally took place. The issue, roughly #156 IIRC, is a fun one and really highlights Peter's supporting cast, even though the wedding is crashed by a super-villian (and a weak one at that! Mirage? C'mon!). But from here on in, we see a constant of 'change' in Peter's life as writers struggled with keeping things interesting for Pete's cast. Still, the progression is fun to watch.

-Gloria and Pete's pad- a new addition to Pete's cast, Gloria Grant becomes a mainstay (although she's been forgotten for years on end over the last twenty-five years). First Pete's neighbor, then a fellow Bugle employee, Gloria is a welcome addition. Sha Shan also became more prominent (Flash's girlfriend), although I'll talk more about her in my review of PPTSS. Peter's apartment is another fun aspect of his continuity, as he had to find a new apartment after his friendship with Harry crumbled. After months of having no furniture, his apartment is finally decorated with crappy hand-me-downs and remains that way for some time. How goofy was the giant Indian statue that would always be drawn whenever Pete was in his pad?! More fun for us through Pete's blight.

-The end of the Spider-Mobile- it had to happen sooner or later. Still, it's kind of fun reading this issue, and the Tinkerer returns!

-The Return of Doc Ock...and Hammerhead?- Doc Ock returns, having survived a nucleur explosion, and immdediately the old Aunt May connection is explored. This is fun, although the inherent silliness to the plot may turn a lot of people off. Especially when Hammerhead returns! Yup, he died, came back as a ghost to haunt Ock, and then somehow...came back to life? Confusing, but Hammerhead and Ock were back for their final Ock/Spidey/Hammerhead War! With Gobby and Jackal dead, and the Kingpin not being seen in ages, Spidey needed something of a nemesis. Yet, this and many future Doc Ock appearances are not quite up to standard for Spidey's greatest foe.

-Speaking of the Kingpin...the Kingpin returns!- Like Ock, the Kingpin was brought back in for a few good tussles, although like Ock, the battles didn't have the same flavor as the days of old. One battle circa #167 and another in the mid 190's were not much more than throwaway fights.

-The Lizard and Stergon battles- Like most of the fights in this period, they were a bit over-dramatic and silly, but these are still fun! One in the 160's and another in PPTSS show a mad-house of reptiles, dinosaur skeletons, the Lizard, Stergon the Dinosaur Man and Spidey in an all out brawl. If you're a kid who likes reptiles and dinosaurs, I'm sure you'd be in seventh heaven though.

-Will O Wisp- a bold new superstar! Or at least, that's what the cover says. I guess you had to be there in 1977, but I never really seemed to enjoy Will O'Wisp as much as my 1977 Spider-man reading contemporaries did--it appears that he was pretty popular. I do enjoy seeing Dr. Jonas Harrow, the sneaking scienctist who has always lurked in Spidey's back round making appearances though.

-"When they made Joe Robertson, they broke the mold"- All along, Robbie was an important member of Pete's cast since his first appearance, although at one point during the 160's-170's, he has what I think is his best moment of all time. Talking to Spider-man, he gives him a hard talking to about going on in life, telling him his secret of having another son who died in child-birth and almost ruined his and his wife's life. Yet, the were able to go on, and he tells Spidey to start being strong again. It's his greatest scene ever, and really shows the kind of man that Joe Robertson is. Like Captain Stacy before him, Robbie acts as father figure to Peter and someone to look up to and admire. I love this scene

-The Punisher- The Punisher must have gotten popular fast, because he appeared every twenty issues or so, and usually in good stories. One story with Nightcrawler shows that Marvel was making the transition to a later period and another with the Punisher killing Hitman further shows this.

-Rocket Racer- For some reason, I have a soft spot for him, although not as much as the Prowler. Goofy, 70's-ish, but fun. I wouldn't mind seeing him back in some kind of X-treme sports motiff. At least his story with 'Big Wheel' ( ) showed the Tinkerer back in action and crazy.

-Harry, Dr. Bart Hamilton and the third Green Goblin- Here is where, once again, Spidey's personnal life gets really crazy...although this time, the end brings back a small sense of calm to it. First, Harry returns and comes back as the old Harry (although too shy at first), and then Harry fits right back in with Pete's cast. Next, Harry begins dating Liz Allen, in a great twist for the cast, and Harry really becomes the old Harry as Pete's best friend. And Liz gets some nice happiness too. Then Dr. Bart Hamilton enters the picture, the nice psychiatrist--until he becomes Green Goblin III! A big five parter ensues (with Silverman getting crippled at some point), until Harry dons his old Goblin costume and a Spidey/Green Goblin II/Green Goblin III fight erupts! In the end, Hamilton dies, and Harry is *finally* back to normal, at peace and able to put the memory of the Goblin behind him. Here is where I would have liked to see the legacy of the Green Goblin stop (especially since the Hobgoblin takes over down the road). Harry is back to normal, and now with Liz, and Peter can bury the memory of Norman Osbourn with Gwen (and Warren, Hamilton, etc.).

-Exit: Mary Jane- After a few years of dating MJ after Gwen's death, things moved along shaky and never quite as right as it should have been. Finally, Pete proposes to MJ! Yet...MJ says no. And with good reason, b/c it never really seemed right. In fact, at this point in Spidey's life, it seemed like he shouldn't really be with MJ at all. The writers must have sensed this, and plenty of letter-writers complained that they hated MJ, because soon after, MJ leaves the series completely and leaves Peter heart-broken once more. Her turning down the proposal, or course, made people hate her more. Mary Jane wouldn't be seen again for some time.

-Spidey graduates college- well, sorta. Although he gets shafted again and doesn't get to have his hame called, Peter finally graduates college after 150 issues and roughly 10 years in real time. Still, I wish he could have stayed, since college life was a major part of Spidey's life in the book and a lot of the fun. He does continue on in grad school though for a time. This is a major milestone for Peter though.

-Spidey is cleared by the police- and here is the major milestone for Spidey- After years of being wanted for the murders of Captain Stacy and Norman Osbourn, Spidey is finally cleared as a murderer, and doesn't have police-men shooting at him all the time. Yet another major milestonen in the life of Spider-man.

-Jonah loses it- After this, JJJ pretty much loses it. With cool stories with Spencer Smythe (his best story ever) and Jonas Harrow, JJJ and Spidey go through a series of things that really mark a turning point in their relationship. JJJ seems to crack, and Spidey really gives him a talking to, and when it's all said and done, things are different between them--by this time, Jonah is really not Spidey's *enemy* anymore. And Jonah finally gets a girlfriend! (And later, a wife!)

-Enter the Black Cat- The Black Cat shows up in a memorable story that introduces her to us. Although she is a minor character first, he later appearances would bump her to major.

-Peter's life shits the bed- big time. In the final ten issues leading up to #200, everything goes wrong for Pete. MJ leaves, Betty gets all weird trying to leave Ned for Peter, Flash and Harry think he's a jerk and then the kicker of all kickers: Aunt May dies. Even more, Mysterio seems to be behind a lot of this! Good for Mysterio (who I might add, is supposed to be dead right now), although bad for Spidey.

-Issue #200- Finally: Spidey versus the Burglar, who shot Uncle Ben. In one of the best Spider-Man stories to come out in some time, Spidey finally learns that it is the Burglar who is in league with Mysterio, and they've faked Aunt May's death. Spidey tracks him down, to learn Aunt May is hostage. And two decades worth of revenge finally happens, as Peter continues to scare him out of the rage he's been through in the last ten issues, although I like to think out of the rage he's gone through from Uncle Ben's death, to the Goblin, Captain Stacy, Gwen, the Jackal, MJ leaving him, etc. The Burglar, finally, dies of a heart attack. And more importantly, for the first time Aunt May is not scarred of Spider-Man after having been so since issue 1. This is the most important turning point after all these issues, as there is finally some type of peace between Aunt May and Spidey.

By the end of #200, however, the series was marked with a specific change--no more spotlighting the supporting cast. Although the Bugle would remain a major part, we stopped seeing Harry, Liz, Flash, Sha Shan almsot altogether and hardly ever saw Betty, Ned, Joe Robertson, Marla (JJJ's girlfriend) or Gloria. With no supporting cast being shown, no conflict with the police and no college, once again Spidey entered a period (although quick) of having really no direction.

Meanwhile, in PPTSS, there were other things going on...

Where Do We Go From Here?: Part II (PPTSS #1-32)

While things were going on with Amazing Spider-Man , the new title Peter Parker: The Spectaculur Spider-Man also made it's debut, promising to focus more on Peter's life than anything else. And for quite awhile, it did just that. These early stories and covers are a blast, although never quite the quality of the main title.

-The best part of this title, is the focus on the supporting cast. Flash, Sha Shan, Harry, Liz, Betty, Ned, Gloria, the White Tiger and his girl (more on that later) and the Bugle all played a major role in almost every issue. Lots of fun (well, maybe not Razorback or the Hypno-Hustler...) seeing them here. And here is where Sha Shan is really seen as a character. All of the supporting cast gets to act as a way of getting Pete through whatever he's going through.

-Action right away- the first issue has the Tarrantula, who I already said that I like a real lot, and the second issue has Kraven, another fave of mine. The mastermind behind this, Lightmaster, is written nicely and appears to be another contender for major nemesis to Spidey. Add in the Vulture and the Hitman (another new baddie) and then Morbius and the Torch, and things are kicking off good right away.

-Light Master- I liked the Light-Master in his first two appearnces (PPTSS #1-3 and #20-21), and he seemed like a potential major baddie. However, all subsequent appearances of him have him down around Rocket Racer's level (maybe even Mindworm), so he was written off early. The two early stories in PPTSS however, are very nicely done.

-The White Tiger- the White Tiger was really the shining star of the early PPTSS stories, all the way through this period, and Hector Ayala became a major supporting cast member (as did his girlfriend). He was fun and gave Spidey someone to fight beside, although making sure never to cross the line into a partnership.

-The Man-Wolf/Hate Moner/Razorback/Flash/Sha Shan Saga- Uh, the less said, the better I guess. Mabye b/c this was going on at the same time as the Green Goblin III Saga, but this story is not really that memorable, and actually ran for about five issues. Razorback? C'mon!

-Disco meets Spidey- #23...I guess you had to be there. Still, seeing Peter and his buddies all decked out in disco out-fits is pretty funny.

-Frank Miller and his first Daredevil story- the mid-20's had a memorable run with Frank Millar doing a Spidey/Daredevil crossover (Spidey is blind). Cool story, and excellent quality with Millar on it.

-The Carrion Saga- Ah, the first really great PPTSS Saga, and once more, another continuation of the Jackal story (which kind of continued the Green Goblin/Gwen story). Another mysterious villian beings attacking Peter at home, knowing his identity, and additionally has a whole array of powers that make him dangerous. With the White Tiger, Spidey is still continually beaten by Carrion, until finally captured to learn from Carrion that he is "the Living Clone of Professor Miles Warren!!!" (aka the Jackal). A cool plot twist and good story, as Spidey battles and then beats Carrion, who dies in the end. For a few issues there, it looked like Carrion was going to be another villian on par with Doc Ock/Green Goblin/Kingpin/Jackal though. And like the continuing Goblin stories, the Jackal had one final continuing story in the form of Carrion.

By #34, like ASM, the old supporting cast seemed to be all gone. The White Tiger left the series after one final story, and with MJ gone in ASM, the final members of the supporting cast seemed to leave quietly as well, with the exception of the Bugle staff.

Once again, with all the changes in Spidey's life in ASM, the editors must have thought "Where do we really go from here?"

OK, Where Do We Really Go From Here?: (ASM #201-237, PPTSS #34-74)

After #200 of ASM there were a great deal of major changes and turning points in Peter's life that concluded a lot of the conflict that had been moving the book along for 200 issues. In addition, #33 of PPTSS finished off some other points in Peter's life and ended the saga of Carrion (and soon after the White Tiger). With so much fixed and done, there was the additional problem of most of Peter's supporting cast pretty much up and leaving the book suddenly for little or no reason. Besides Aunt May and JJJ, not many were around. Once again, although more emphasized this time, there was the sense of "Where do we go from here?"

-ASM: In Amazing Spider-Man there was a string of largely forgetable stories, including one with the Lightmaster that destroyed any possibility of him being a major bad guy. There was also some Punisher stories and Black Cat stories, that served to keep these two fan favorites in the spotlight. Immediately, the Black Cat was requested to keep coming back, the Punisher was undoubtedly a major recurring character in Spidey's life.

-PPTSS- for the first time, the second Spidey title was just as good or sometimes even better than the first. Swarm, a new Lizard/Stergon battle and Belladonna (as well as the return of the cat burglar from way back in ASM #30) served as good villians, and Peter began getting a new supporting cast.

-Grad school- Mainly an aspect of PPTSS, Peter got a new supporting cast of fellow teaching assistants, professors and other people. Although they were enjoyable, they were largely forgetable, considering the fact that I can't remember one of their names.

-Debra Whitman- With Betty married, Gwen dead and MJ gone, once again, Peter had no love life. The writers of PPTSS introduced Debra Whitman, a shy grad student who had a crush on Peter. Soon, the two were in a romantic relationship, which was kind of nice. I say 'kind of', because sometimes it was nice, and then sometimes it just felt so weird. For twenty issues or so this grew, until finally Debra's recurring fear of Spider-Man and somehow believing Peter and Spidey were one and the same drove her slightly wacky. Debra ended up being a bit loony, and had to leave the series, which is too bad, since she was a nice character to begin with. Still, I'm not complaining about seeing her go.

-It wasn't until the final 120's of ASM that we started getting quality Spidey stories again. Although a silly but fun Sandman/Hydro-Man story occured, in addition to Hydro-Man's 1st appearance, a Namor crossover and Madame Web being introduced there was little worth noting. Then came a good Vulture story, and then an exceptionally good story with Juggernaut and Spidey going at it for two issues. The story works well and shows Spidey continually thinking of various ways to get through Juggernaut, until finally beating him. It is about here that Stern and Romita Jr. took over the book and brought it back to top quality.

-Stern and Romita Jr.- The Vulture story and the Juggernaut major battle quickly made ASM a top Marvel book again, and brought a quality back to the book that some can argue was missing since #100. Next, they did a really good Cobra story, then a follow up Cobra/Hyde story, another great yarn. And then finally there was one of my favorite stories, with the Tarrantula, Will O Wisp and the Roxxon corporation. A four-partner, this story is very nicely written and drawn, but is also what I'd say is a turning point. Here marks what I would consider the end of the 70's in Spider-Man continuity. The Tarrantula, *the* bad guy of the early 70's ends up dying in the end (after becoming a giant spider) and Will O'Wisp *the* 'super-star' of the late 70's ends up finding some closure and leaving Spidey's stories for some time. After it ends with #236, there is a quick Stilt-Man story in #237, and a new era of Spider-Man begins.

Also, the appearance of the Hobgoblin, my favorite Spider-Man bad-guy occurs in #238, the next issue, and marks what I think is another new era of Spider-Man (and a damn good one). Over in PPTSS, a coinciding era was beginning, as #74 (which was the finale to the Debra Whitman saga) is followed by #75, the beginning of the Black Cat Saga of Spider-Man (with the opening parts having Doc Ock and the Owl).

Hey Cobie, I haven't had a chance to read all these, but thanks for the hard work -- I'll definitely check in and offer opinions!

Thanks Drake! I'm glad you're reading these too, and I want to hear your opinions on all eras too.

I was on a bit of a roll yesterday, and I have a feeling I might get on another one and bring my reviews right up to MacFarlane.

The Hobgoblin Saga: Part I (ASM #238-267)

With issue #238, one of my favorite periods of Spidey's history begins. I love the Hobgoblin Saga, which runs pretty much strait through from #238 to #288, as the mystery of the Hobgoblin serves as one of the major aspects of Spidey and Peter's life.

Further, this period is also marked by excellent characterization of almost all of Peter's supporting cast. The art by Romita Jr. is out of this world, and Stern's writing is superb. The follow up writer, Defalco (I think?) is good too, since Stern layed the ground work for the Hobgoblin, although my love for this saga may have me jaded.

There is a variety of reasons I love this period. Here they are:

-Romita Jr.- what an artist. Like his father before him, JR Jr. knew how to draw Spidey, how to draw action and how to make the readers squeel with delight.

-The sense of continuity- this is MAJOR. Right away, Stern makes sure there is a sense of continuity for long-time Spider-man readers. Things happening in Harry and Jonah's life, Peters' and the Hobgoblin's reflect a history of these characters. I'll discuss below. Also, the continuity between Amazing Spider-Man and Spectaculur Spider-Man is tighter than ever and very enjoyable. During the Hobgoblin Saga, Peter was going through another saga in PPTSS, what I call "The Black Cat Saga". The inter-weaving of the two is very enjoyable.

-The Hobgoblin- Hobgoblin is probably my favorite Spidey villian of all, because of the stories written during this time. The mystery of the Hobgoblin draws you right in, and I was left guessing everywhere the first time I read these. Further, the Hobgoblin is one of the best villians ever that gets progressively better when he fights Spider-Man, constantly evolving as he got used to fighting him. He is smart too--wise enough to blackmail people to support him, and smart enough to figure out where Norman Osbourne went wrong all those years ago. He also goes increasingly mad very subtly as the issues go by, and even seems to realize it circa #251, screaming "Osbourne was the mad one! Not me!". His hatred for Spidey consumes him and he can't fight it.

-Lance Bannon and Amy Powell- a cool little subplot, we see new members of Pete's supporting cast who pull him into a love triangle he wants nothing to do with. Lance Bannon, a jerk (but a good character for the book) becomes an important player. Later, he becomes the other prime suspect for being the Hobgoblin.

-The return of Mary Jane- Mary Jane returns to the series (in an amusing sequence with Peter getting kissed), and stays for the long hall. However, this seems to be a different MJ. She is her old fun self, and it's funny to see everyone trying to hook Pete and her up, but she seems to be a wiser and 'more there' now. The airhead Mary Jane is gone, and Aunt May makes comments that hint at her not being what she seems. This MJ is likable, and a lot of fans seemed to be won over by Stern's writing. At first, her and Peter have no relationship again, and their close friendship really warmed people back up to her.

-The return of the supporting cast- With the Hobgoblin in possession of Norman Osbourne's diaries and MJ back, the rest of the supporting cast showed up too. Harry and Liz, Betty and Ned, Flash and Sha Shan, the entire Bugle and the rest re-enter in Peter's life. Another character, Nathan Lubunsky becomes Aunt May's boyfriend and takes on the old role of Captain Stacy a la 'conscience of the series'.

-#238-239- the first Hobgoblin story is great, and we see the Goblin slowly become more comfortable with this role. Right away, it's apparent that a new nemesis for Peter is being born. The mystery of his identity is just as good, if not better, than the mystery of the original Green Goblin of old.

-#245- the next Hobgoblin story is equally as good, as we see how smart the Goblin is by forcing Lefty Donovon to test the Green Goblin formula so the Hobgoblin can ensure he won't go mad. Further, he tricks everyone into thinking he's dead, except Spidey.

-PPTSS #85- even though it's an issue of the other Spider-Man book, this Hobgoblin appearance is pivotal for the continuation of his character. Emerging from the mists with Super-strength, the Hobgoblin is forever changed, as he may now have become slightly unhinged. The readers are left wondering if he is crazy (or will be crazy), but there is no doubt he has changed. Plus, he whips Spidey pretty badly, since the Black Cat gets in his way (which is part of the ongoing Black Saga over in PPTSS).

-The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man- one of the greatest comic issues of all-time. A beautiful story that sums up Peter's life, and then in the final pages shows us how noble Peter truly is. A tear-jerking story that still leaves me breathless, and a great way to remind yourself why you love Peter Parker.

-Peter leaves college- with the Black Cat racking up huge hospital bills and Peter sure he loves her (over in PPTSS), among further problems at the Bugle due to competition with Lance and Robbie now as editor, Pete decides that he doesn't have time for college anymore. This turning point is MAJOR. For the first time ever in Spidey's history, he stops going to school. He says to himself that he thinks he needs time to see the rest of the world and see what life is like outside of school, which may accurately reflect the idea that the readers need to have Spidey move on from school too. Personally, I wish he were still there, I think it's the prime setting for him! But one thing this does do is break his confidence a little and ruin his relationship with Aunt May for a long period of time.

-Harry learns his father was the Green Goblin and Liz has a little surprise- Major things are happening with Peter's old friends. Some months earlier, we learn that Liz and Harry were married in a small ceremony and moved to Jersey, which seems kind of stupid (I mean c'mon! Peter not there at Liz and Harry's wedding?!!). But now, we get them back like the days of old. Major things happen, the first being Liz announcing that her and Harry are going to have a baby. It seems finally that someone in Pete's supporting cast is going to be happy. And then Harry learns about his father was the Green Goblin and takes it hard, until Pete finally corners him and the two talk it out. A long-standing aspect of Spider-man continuity comes into play, as Harry finally learns the terrible secret of his father.

-Jonah reveals he helped create the Scorpion- instead of being the victim of black mail by the Hobgoblin, JJJ prints his story about helping create the Scorpion, in one appears to be one of his finest moments. He steps down as Editor in Chief and Joe Robertson takes over (which puts him under all kinds of stress that makes him snap at Peter a lot).

-#249-#251- Another great Hobgoblin story that shows a huge battle between the two. Matching wits, strength, endurance and just about everything they've got, this is probably the best battle the two ever have, and may be on of Spidey's best battles ever. Starting out with a lot of small-time players around (i.e. Roderick Kingsley, JJJ, etc.) and even the Kingpin, the fight goes on for two more issues, as Spidey gives everything he has and finally beats the Hobgoblin. The Goblin however, appeas dead and only his mask is found.

-The new costume- Here is one of the major changes of all-time for Spidey. #252 marks the start of the black costume, after Secret Wars. Although I used to hate it, I can use my knowledge that he will get his old costume back eventually to let myself enjoy the costume, which is kind of cool. The alien costume was a good ongoing subplot, but his normal black costumes were equally fun, as wore them for a few years. Still, if I were a fan at the time, I'd be outraged.

-The Rose- The Rose is another cool ass villian. Like the Hobgoblin mimicking the Green Goblin, the Rose in undoutedly a tribute to the Crime Master, although instead of two issues, there will be forty to try and figure out who he is. He worked well as a crime boss, and is probably my favorite Spidey crime boss nemesis outside of the Kingpin.

-The Puma- I like Puma too, another fresh character who worked good with Spidey. Their relationship evolved enough to keep things interesting and keep the Puma likable also.

-Mary Jane learns Peter is Spider-Man- or at least, had always known. This is a great plot-twist and long overdue, and Mary Jane then reveals her child-hood history that puts her in a whole different light for the first time. After really having a long-due heart to heart with Peter, MJ emerges as an extremely likable character and welcome addition to carrying the burden of Spider-Man. At this time, it seems like MJ isn't so bad for Peter after all, and maybe them being together would be good for them.

-The Rose and Hobgoblin team up!- Like the Green Goblin and the Crime Master, this duo is an awesome pairing. Once the Hobgoblin joins the Rose, things get really interesting, and Spidey now has some serious enemies. Further, there are now enough players in New York to ensure constant conflict and drama in Spidey's life. This story also begins to show Hobby finally starting to lose it, as he beings emulating Osbourn for the first time.

There are also good scenes with Harry, as we see him dealing with conflict in the face of a long history of being called spineless by his father. And Liz has the best scenes of all, as she goes into labor (although in the Roses warehouse while it's on fire), and then has her and Harry's son Normie. For now it seems, Liz and Harry are truly happy and Harry can leave the shadow of the Goblin behind him.

For a few issues there are some forgetable stories, which coincides with the end to the Black Cat saga in PPTSS and the start of a third Spidey book, Web of Spider-Man . This marks the mid-way point for the Hobgoblin saga.

And then what happened? I'm waiting on the next installment, pretty please.

By the way, have you watched the MTV Spider-Man 'toon? I can't figure out if I like it or not... something I just can't put my finger on.

Oh, one other thing. My almost-three-year-old was having a major conniption fit Sunday night. The only thing on any of the scads of cartoon channels that we get which I knew she would recognize was the 90's Spidey 'toon. She still kept up the tantrum for a few minutes, but I distracted her by pointing out that Spider-Man was fighting some crazy robots (Spider Slayers actually.) She started watching and after about five minutes, just as she's about to conk out for the night another Slayer pops up and in a sweet tired voice she says "It's another crazy robot, dad." Then she was out.

Once again, Spidey saves the day!

Aw! What a cutie

I've caught a few episodes here and there and I like it but also feel like something isn't right about it. I thought maybe it was the weird feel to the animation and voices, it kind of reminded me of the old Maxx and Aeon Flux cartoons, which is too weird for Spidey.

And Matlock, you're the best! Next installment coming up! I've got five more planned!

Good grief. Right now you're at the point when I was collecting Spidey and I can't believe there's been enough books since then for that many installments.

I kinda wish I had the $ to get the new set of the old, old Spidey cartoons. I remember watching them as a kid and being a little flummoxed by those wierd later episodes with mole men and aliens and whatnot but also really liking them at the same time.

The Black Cat Saga (PPTSS #75-100)

While Spidey was knee-deep in the awesome beginning to the Hobgoblin Saga in ASM, he was just as busy in PPTSS with the almost equally good Black Cat Saga. Just as in over there, thing were happening in PPTSS to keep the interest going from issue to issue and the Black Cat proved to be very likable and a breathe air (at least for a bit...)

-The Return of the Black Cat and the Doc Ock/Owl War- The Black Cat made her return right in the middle of the Doc Ock/Owl War, a great story that put Spidey right in the middle of his greatest foe and one of Daredevil's greatest foes. Doc Ock is at his best here, and the addition of the Black Cat makes this story even better. The Cat comes across as more likable than she had ever before, and she seems to be a nice change of woman for Peter. Her almost-death at the hands of Doc Ock is very dramatic, and immediately there seems to be some devotion to her from Spidey.

The finale to the story, with Spidey hunting Doc Ock while the Cat is in the hospital and then finding him and beating him, is equally as good. This was during a few weeks were the Hobgoblin had hit, the Black Cat was in the hospital, Peter dropped out of college, his supporting cast returned and now he had to find Doc Ock for a final battle. Very intense, and nicely done.

-The Black Cat and Spidey- the romance between these two always reads as surprisingly natural--it was only a matter of time before Spidey got together with another costumed person. Felicia remains likable despite her shady past, and the early issues of the romance work well.

-Cloak and Dagger- two very cool characters from this era. Cloak and Dagger emerge as two of Spidey's recurring characters in PPTSS and it's easy to see how the instantly became fan-favorites.

-Spidey reveals his identity to the Black Cat- MAJOR. This is the first time that Spidey actually reveals his identity to anyone on purpose. The *first* time. It's surprising that he's fallen for her so quick, and the outcome is even more surprising--Felicia doesn't want to see who he is, she's in love with Spider-Man, not Peter Parker. Here is where the Black Cat Saga suddenly gets weird and Felicia unlikeable. She loves Spidey but finds Pete boring, which immediately alienated this reader!

-The Black Cat's search for power and the Kingpin- The next bad move the Black Cat makes is looking for super-powers when Spidey told her not to. It's bad enough that she now has gotten in Spidey's way in fights and insulted Mary Jane, she's now turned to one of his worst enemies, the Kingpin for power. Of course, he plays her like a fiddle and her new bad luck powers seem to hurt Spidey more than anything.

-The Answer, the Kingpin, Silvermane, Cloak & Dagger, the Rose and the Black Cat- the final issues of PPTSS in the 90's are some of my all-time favorite of the book, as Spidey goes through this huge story with these characters. I am especially fond of the Answer and was glad when he was brought back, albeit briefly, in the 90's. His power was very cool, and he proved to be a major threat for a few issues. The Kingpin is also awesome, and seeing the Rose acting behind the scenes here in PPTSS, when he was a major baddie in ASM, is cool too. Silvermane is now totally different from his Silver Age self, and even 70's self, and Cloak and Dagger make the story that much more crazy and fun. And of course, the growing wedge b/t Spidey and the Cat is one of the main parts of the story too. A nice fun Spidey story, although not to fun for Peter

-Flash, Sha Shan and Betty- while Harry, Liz and the Bugle were getting major characterization in ASM, PPTSS had it's own characters getting some screen time as well. Some of it though, isn't the best kind. Flash, who had been a good guy for a decade, began having serious problems with Sha Shan and was acting like a jerk. Betty, who hardly ever saw Ned, was also having problems. And then...Betty and Flash start having an affair! Holy! What the--?!

A big change for Pete's supporting cast, as Flash and Betty are now actively cheating on their respective lovers (Betty's a married woman after all), and Pete is drawn in the middle of it, so that he knows. While Harry and Liz are securing their happiness in ASM, the rest of Spidey's cast suddenly embarks on the road to disaster that will finish them off...

-The end of the Black Cat Saga- as it seemed since the mid-80's, the Black Cat saga finally came to an end. After the final confronation with the Kingpin, and the Black Cat about ready to come clean about her powers, Peter decides to call it quits since it is painfully obvious that its not working. Naturally, it doesn't end well but it was definately time for Spidey to move on.

Although I don't like the pairing of the Black Cat and Spidey, I do love the era it occured in. I can't think of the black costume without thinking of the Hobgoblin or the Black Cat, and I still enjoy seeing the Black Cat when she appears. She definately was a growing experience for Peter after Gwen, Betty, MJ and Debra--she was quite a bit to handle.
-------------

Although the Black Cat saga ended, the Hobgoblin Saga was in full effect, and only half over. Even more, a third solo Spidey title replaced Marvel Team Up, and further chronicled Spidey's adventures. Now there were even more stories...

The Web of Spider-Man (WoS #1-31)

Joining ASM and PPTSS, Web of Spider-Man started as the third solo-Spidey series and jumped right into the fray of things. However, while PPTSS started with a bang with cool action packed stories, Web of Spider-Man seemed to have half-good shaky stories that were mediocre at best. The first thirty issues aren't very good at all IMO, and they were largely forgettable with a few exceptions.

While ASM had the final parts of the Hobgoblin Saga and PPTSS had the Death of Jean DeWolf, Web hardly touched on any of Spidey's best villians, supporting cast members and other things to draw the reader in.

Here are a few things that I can remember:

-#1- the end of the Alien Costume?- the first issue did have a good start though, as it seemed to be the finale to the black costume saga. It's a good issue of Peter doing a lot of thinking and anaylzing his life, with good scenes with him fighting against the costume. It ends with it leaving Peter alone in a church, although we all know it didn't stay there.

-Doc Ock, the Vulture, the Hulk, etc.- some of the WoS issues did have some good stories, or at least fairly entertaining ones, as these old villians (and the Hulk) stopped by. However, since I can hardly remember them when it's apparent that my memory of Spidey is pretty damn good, that's telling you something.

-Covers- a lot of the Web covers are very good, with a very dark style that makes the black costume stand out. They're very eye-catching, and a pleasant change from Spidey's other covers. However, as the comic book world became more grim and gritty, I found myself missing the old Spidey covers something terrible...

Spidey's Agony (PPTSS #101-130)

I call this era "Spidey's Agony" in both a silly and serious manner. After #100, the direction of the book slowly changed, and the "Death of Jean DeWolf" emerged as a major story-line. From there on in, Spidey seemed to be stressed out beyond belief for many issues, constantly wondering why he was still Spider-Man and why so many people had to die. The stories are good (especially "the Death..."), but they often seem to get a bit depressing when you read this whole run. Good or bad though, it's obvious that Peter was in agony .

-The Death of Jean DeWolf- This may be one of Peter David's finest stories ever, and is a great, great, great Spidey story. Jean DeWolf, the likable young police captain who had been present for some time, is killed brutally by the Sin-Eater, and Spidey (and us) are outraged. The story is excellent, with great pacing and mystery, and the anguish Spidey feels always affects me when I read it. Spidey ends up beating Sin-Eater to a pulp and I find myself cheering him on, only to have Daredevil intervene and stop him, telling him he's gone too far (and making us wonder what the price of vengeance is).

All in all, a very good Spidey story. However, from here on out, Spidey is filled with anguish and agony, and the scene of Sin-Eater firing into the crowd and killing by-standers is constantly repeated in all three books.

-Secret Wars and the Puma- Secret Wars = yuck. Puma = cool! I liked the Puma in these stories, although Secret Wars II is better off forgotten. After this little two-parter, the Puma is officially not a bad guy, and his relationship with Spidey is interesting and pretty unique at the time.

-the return of the Black Cat and Sabertooth. The Black Cat returns and has an interesting reunion with Spidey. This story serves the purpose, if nothing else, to make Felicia likable again after going all nutso on Spidey at the end of their relationshp. There is also a minor sense of closure to her and Pete's relationship/animosity and then she gets to kick the living hell out of Sabertooth, who was on his way to being Marvel's big gun in these months. Two months later, and Marvel might not have allowed it. Good for Felicia!

-The importance of MJ- One of the most interesting factors is that like Aunt May and JJJ, Mary Jane suddenly became prominent in every issue of PPTSS as well as WoS. That means that like JJJ and Aunt May, MJ was now far more important to Spidey than the rest of his supporting cast, showing that there was more going on with her. While almost all of Spidey's cast was now in ASM for the final acts of the Hobgoblin Saga, MJ was now in every Spidey book, making her far more important than before.

With MJ now likable for the first time in years, this was a good thing for Peter and the readers. However, it *begged* the question of whether Pete and MJ would get together. Although she was at one time very unpopular with Spidey fans, she was now a different MJ and a likeable one at that. Could she finally be the right girl for Peter?

Up next: the final Hobgoblin Saga! MAJOR changes in Spidey's life! Gang War!

random thoughts on your chronology:
-- The Prowler and White Tiger occupy that soft spot in my heart that any character does when you remember first seeing them as a kid and thinking "coooool!"
-- I remember liking Cloak & Dagger, but it wasn't til Leonardi did that mini that I was hooked. He totally fulfilled the graphic potential that their visuals provided (and that cloak! Spawn's a rip-off, imo).
-- Though I usually enjoy the Punisher more in "Daredevil" (cuz c'mon, he should really not stand a chance against Spidey), I really enjoyed the Miller Annual(?) with Doc Ock.
-- I loved the Hobgoblin's early appearances! I especially remember after the first fight seeing Hobbie stagger home completely drained and amazed by Spider-Man's strength. You rarely see the villain limp home feeling like they just got the crap kicked out of them. I also loved the issue (by Romita/Jansen?) with the battle in Hobbie's battle wagon.
-- The book was one of my favs around the time of the black costume. Who did the art for those, was it Frenz?
-- Spectacular was definitely the secondary book. Partly because of Milgrom - I think he either drew or was in heavy handed inking phase and I thought his stuff was horrific during that period (Secret Wars II -- pure drek). They also had the Spot and while the Answer wasn't bad, his costume certainly was.
-- I liked the Black Cat and thought she brought something interesting to Spidey's love-life (for once it was *Spidey's* lovelife, not Peter Parker's. Hated that new costume she briefly wore though.
-- The issue where MJ discloses her tortured history was one of my fav issues of that era.
-- Puma -- very cool despite the unfortunate name (c'mon, how can you not think of sneakers!?).

So, what big changes are in store for Spidey after this next big arc? Does anyone else think there's a chance Spidey will have organic webs by the time it's over? (and they'll come out his butt!! Ok, not that...)

Ugh, I hope not! The web-shooters are classic! They don't play up his 'genius' enough anymore, IMO. He used to think his way out of a third of his battles, with things like web-shooters and spider-tracers (another thing NEVER seen anymore).

I have a strange feeling that Harry Osbourn might be back. I say: YES PLEASE. Anyone reading my comments might find this odd, since I wish Aunt May and Norman Osbourn (and Gwen Stacy) didn't and don't come back. But (and I'll get to this in my Spidey reviews eventually, once I start them back up ), Harry is *needed* in Peter's life.

Peter needs friends besides MJ and Aunt May. Flash, who was Pete's best man!!!, and Harry should still be around, giving Peter some other friends and supporting cast. Harry's death was by far the worst of all Peter's major supporting characters, and was totally unnecessary. It was a combination of a Green Goblin rehashed death and Gwen Stacy rehashed death, with a little Professor Warren and Frederick Foswell thrown in there too when Harry realizes what he's done. Bring back Harry!

I also fear that Gwen might be coming back. Oooooh boy. Now, as I've said, Gwen is my favorite. But I'm not sure how I feel about this, especially after twenty five years of establishing MJ as the 'one' for Pete.

Then again, I could be wrong on all accounts .

More reviews soon!

****SPOILERS for "Sins Past" I & II*******
-- Well, at least there are no clones yet.
-- I really like how JMS played up the MJ/Peter Bond before driving a possible wedge into it with the Gwen letter
-- I'm not sure what to think of the Big Revelation. I'm sure the missing words on that letter will show that she was actually pregnant with someone else's kids (Harry's?? Norman's). Maybe Gwen will get the Sue Dibney treatment and we'll find out she was not only pregnant, but that she had been raped by Norman in some retcon.
-- The art here is very impressive and convincingly conveys the human drama of this story which is key since there are very personal issues brought up, not just a superhero slugfest.

God, I really, really, really hope that nothing happens to Gwen like that. The mere mention of it already has me ready to impale JMS if I hear he's thinkig about it. Gwen is my baby! She needs to be left in the Silver Age, untouched by the post-Identity Crisis comic world.

I do kind of like the revelations so far. Gwen and Peter's children? It seems pretty cool. The only problem is that Peter is still supposed to be in his early twenties, not his mid-thirties.

I do not want to find out they are Harry or Norman's children. Please no.

I'm interested, and I want to see where this goes.

And I really like the Pete/MJ scenes too, especially seeing MJ so supportive. I love how JMS very smoothly placed this in Spidey's continuity too: Gwen having her operation while Peter is fighting the Hulk in Canada (#120), and then Harry having his LSD flashback and Norman on the verge of becoming the Goblin. Having read the issues at least twenty times (as I've said), these scenes were a bit chilling to me.

I trust JMS, so I'm wondering where this is going.

(And I'll eventually restart my reviews )

Hey! Was I right? I flipped through the latest issue and it mentioned organic webs. So are we to believe his webs just happen to come from the same place where he used to wear his webshooters? Are these webs stronger or different somehow? And does Spidey now have "enhanced sense" of some kind?

So Cobie, what'd you think of how "Sins Past" wrapped up? I actually lost interest...

Get Junior back on Amazing. Now. To me, he IS the definitive Spidey artist. Ditko may created Spidey, and Senior refined the look, but Junior has drawn more issues than both. Junior's art just fits this version so well, just like Bagley is the only man for Ultimate.

Drake, I have some very definite opinions on "Sins Past", and they're not good for the most part. In short:

- It totally destroyed Gwen's character. Anyone who reads through the previous three pages will see what Gwen Stacey means to me as a comic book supporting character and Peter's first love. I think it's utter shit that Gwen would ever sleep with Norman. "Attracted to his inner turmoil"...what crap! Gwen would never cheat on Peter--if anything, MJ would! And Gwen and Peter never slept together? Riiiiiight. I'm sure Harry and MJ never did either. It's been thirty years since Gwen has appeared alive (the real Gwen), so I'm sure Joe Q doesn't care what happens to her, but I felt hurt by it. Ugh.

-And the story was pretty damn boring to begin with! Slow, padded, and probably JMS's worst yet, despite the stuff about Gwen and Norman. The whole point, I'm sure, is to introduce a new 'Gwen Stacey' (her daughter) and something similar to a new Harry Osbourn (Gwen and Norman's son, torn b/t the Goblin legacy and what's right), but it dragged on forever.

-I hate that Norman is still alive, something I think was a terrible mistake. Now they've retroactively added more mistakes onto Spidey's past. Eh? I'll stick by Spidey as ever. I feel, as I go over my timeline, that the ongoing theme since the mid 80’s, has been the gradual destruction of Peter’s supporting cast, his friends, his personality, etc. This is just a further extension of this.

Brainy68- I love JR Jr.'s work, especially his Spider-Man. I personally love his Hobgoblin stuff in the early 80’s the best (possibly my most favorite of all Spider-Man eras), but his work has always been reliable. When he’s on a Spider-Man title, you can always count on one good Spider-Man comic a month.

And coming soon this thread, although not to stop any discussion: more updates on the Spider-Man chronology! We still have McFarlane, the clone saga, etc. to go through!

How could my trust have been so great? I should have known...damn Marvel does it to me again!

But what about the organic webbing? Is that the new status quo?

Yup. It was referenced in NTbolts #3 (although, one wonders why he can't use both...)

Organic webbing...meh?

Five years ago, I'd be in an uproar. But I have a feeling that they'll go back eventually...they always do.

The point of the web-shooters (besides a cool ability) is to show off Peter's scientific genius...which is very central to the character. Of course, this has been relatively ignored for the last few years, which bothers me. Hopefully they'll get back to that (and the web-shooters) eventually.

The organic webbing really serves no purpose for the character himself, and only makes the series more like the movies. I'm sure the sales team thought this was great, while the fans just roll their eyes.

Of course, doing this weeks after kicking Gwen's dead body and spitting on the legacy of Gwen and Peter's relationship makes the organic webbing decision seem less important.

Cobie, did you hear who was taking over the writing and art on Spider-Man? Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo are switching from FF to Spidey.

Dammit... I was hoping Ringo was gonna get to work on a new TELLOS...

Hm...Waid on Spidey? I'll take it with some reservation and give Waid a chance...if he can capture Peter like he did Wally West, it has the potential to be great.

If Waid can give the love and respect of Peter's past like he's done with other comics (Legion not being one of them), then he'll definately have me won over.

Wieringo has done Spidey before, and done it very well (Sensational Spider-Man, was it?). I have a feeling he'll be able to draw good poses for Spidey in action, but I wonder how well he'll be able to make the villians look sinister. I bet his MJ is nice on the eyes though

Well, at this point, I'm going to post a few more reviews of Spidey's history. I hope no one minds, as they are fun for me and I hope some people still read them.

But nothing would please me more to see a continuing discussion on the current Spider-Man series, from Ultimate Spider-Man to Amazing Spider-Man to anything with Spidey in them.

So I hope my reviews don't break up the flow of any discussion too much.

The Hobgoblin Saga Part II (ASM #267-289)

The second half of the Hobgoblin Saga occurred after #267 and culminated in #292. As I’ve stated before, the Hobgoblin is my favorite of all of Spidey’s villains, and this era is one of my favorite for Spidey stories. #267 makes a good break, as the the next ten or so issues were really just one-shots in ASM and were relatively crappy. Afterwards, the Hobgoblin Saga exploded again in 1984, and continued to pick up steam all the way up until it’s mega-conclusion.

Now, I know that the real identity of the Hobgoblin got screwed up as the writers came and went in the series and that things didn’t turn out as well as Marvel wished it did. Peter David himself, who finally wrote the big revelation in #292 has made numerous mention of the problems he had with the editors in writing the story. Still, my love for this period jades my view of it and I still enjoy these issues immensely.

- A few quick stories from #267-275- not much to comment on here, other than wow, that was a bad year for Spidey stories. Nothing good at all there really, other than an appearance by Slyde, who with a grand total of (3) appearances ever, gains obscure Spidey villain status.

- The Return of the Hobgoblin and the Rose- finally, Amazing Spider-Man got back to the more interesting storylines that had been running through it for the past half decade and the Hobgoblin and the Rose returned with a vengeance. In the time that passed since we saw them, they had made major moves in taking over a large portion of organized crime in NYC. Their return appearances here are very good, and remind me why I loved these two characters so much. We also see Varley and Johnson, the Rose’s two main thugs back in action, and see right off that both the Hobgoblin and the Rose have every intention of betraying each other as soon as possible.

- Flash, Betty, Ned and Sha Shan- after some crazy characterization in PPTSS a few months earlier, all of these characters make the change from PPTSS to ASM and show up. And just like over there, a serious “What in the holy hell?” situation emerges, as Betty starts cheating on Ned with Flash (who is dating Sha Shan). Even more, Ned starts acting like a raving lunatic as he begins to suspect and Flash and Sha start having almost brawl-like fights.

- Of course, it’s obvious now why they moved the characters over, and it was pretty obvious then too. These four came to ASM for the wrap-up of the Hobgoblin Saga, which the editors must have decided should end soon. Thus, the writer began making obvious references to Ned that make him a prime suspect to be the Hobgoblin. The problem with that is that as the series went on, it became too likely—there was really no one else who the Hobgoblin would be, as Peter David would see when he came on for one issue in #292. A further problem is that once again, someone that Peter knows outside his life as Spider-Man suddenly ends up being a mystery villain! But, more on that at the end of this part.

- The other main candidate to be the Hobgoblin is Lance Bannon, the rival photographer at the Bugle. As time had progressed, his girlfriend Amy Powell pretty much left the series soon after she arrived, although Lance remained. However, he was rarely used other than to show up as a rival photog or to be a possible suspect to be the Hobgoblin.

- Silver Sable- Another cool character introduced is Silver Sable, who becomes part of the Spider-Man section of the Marvel U. I think she is written best when her intentions are not purely good, and it’s obvious that there is a monetary element to her motivation. Otherwise, she seems to much like a cute female European version of Nick Fury and SHIELD. Still, her story (and the Foreigner’s story) were pretty enjoyable.

- The Hobgoblin and Flash Thompson- the Hobgoblin Saga heats up as Hobby returns and does battle with Spidey once more. We the effects of the serum have truly taken hold—the Hobgoblin’s greatest fear of going crazy like Osbourn has become a reality, as he became more and more psycho and more and more obsessed with Spider-Man. At the end of this tale, Spidey fights the Hobgoblin, beats him and unmasks him to reveal…Flash!

Of course, the subplots leading up to this in Peter’s life are more important than what was happening in Spidey’s. We see Ned has learned the truth about Flash and Betty, and Sha Shan leaves Flash, after he hits her (yup, Flash actually hits Sha Shan…sad, I know). The gradual destruction of Spidey’s supporting cast, an ongoing theme since #90, picks up full speed here. Sha Shan exits and we never see her again, and Flash is now being blamed for being the Hobgoblin. Combined with Ned making Spidey’s Spider-sense go off, this makes Ned seem like the most likely candidate for the mystery villain.

- The Sinister Syndicate- a cool story that gets jumbled into this whole mess is a two-parter that pits Spidey against a whole bunch of his old villains: the Rhino, the Beetle, Speed Demon, Boomerang and Hydro-Man. He fights alongside Silver Sable, and then in an unlikely twist, the Sandman, who is reforming! This is a fun story and a good read…what super-heroes stories should be like. The villains are all great and are all menacing—easily beaten by Spidey but not too easily. The idea of Sandman going strait is tough though, since I always thought he was one of the more menacing Silver Age Marvel villains, especially since he fought Spidey and the Torch. At this point though, very few villains had ever really gone strait, so it was an interesting idea. As the two last decades have come and gone though, this theme has been done to death (Silver Age villain goes strait, kind of a pseudo hero that helps good guy now), and I prefer the Sandman as a bad guy. Besides, Spider-Man has Prowler (who I love), Rocket Racer, Will O’ Wisp and a whole bunch of others that fill this role.

- Mary Jane- throughout these stories, Mary Jane, like JJJ and Aunt May, remained a central part of Spidey’s cast. In the recent periods (my other review sections), she had regained her role as a major player in the cast although the writers held off on any romance between the two. Recently, she had just admitted to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man and the two had a real heart to heart, giving her character almost a 180 makeover. To be honest, I never even really liked MJ up until this point, but that was the point of the whole thing—to make MJ likeable to Spidey fandom. To some degree, it worked. MJ became central to Peter’s life as the only person to know he was Spider-Man (well, Matt Murdock too), and she grew to dominate the series among the supporting cast (as in she appeared more than any other).

Because of this, the romance that the writers held off on for so long began to manifest itself without any push it seems. It almost seemed to rise naturally out of the progressing events in Spidey’s life, an it makes sense that the two, after growing so close and sharing such close secrets would fall in love once again. Unlike the first time Peter and MJ were together, I like this period. Anyone who knows my preferences know that I think she’s no Gwen, but the new likeable Mary Jane is a welcome addition to Peter’s life. After all, Peter’s lovelife had been all bust since that final page in #121.

- Scourge- there is a cool Scourge crossover during this time, in which Scourge planned on assassinating Flash because he thought it was the Hobgoblin. I like how this type of pseudo crossover weaves into Spidey’s existing continuity.

- Jack O’Lantern frees Flash Thompson- The Spidey/Hobgoblin/Rose/Ned/Flash saga becomes more complicated with the arrival of Jack O’Lantern, breaks Flash out of jail. This nicely sets up the Hobgoblin/Jack O’ Lantern feud that would ensue for the next ten issues. I see Jack O’ Lantern as little more than a second rate Hobgoblin. That’s probably why when Hobgoblin I dies and Jack takes over as Hobgoblin II, I kind of lost my fire in seeing a Hobgoblin appearance (as did apparently the rest of Spidey fandom). Part of me always wished Hobby could give him one good beating during these issues (although he kind of does) and maybe even kill him off.

- Gang War- When I was about 12 years old, this was my favorite story to read. I would read all #284 issues of ASM, all of PPTSS and Web, just to get to this point. I have an incredible fondness for this story, running from #284-288, because the huge amount of villains fighting each other with Spider-Man in the middle seemed so exciting. Looking at it now, I still find it exciting and a fun read, even though the ending wasn’t much compared to how it began. Still, there are some cool sequences:

o An all out Gang War breaks out in NYC, between Hammerhead, Silvermane, the Rose, the Blue Boys (new group) and the various people working for them. This directly connects to Kingpin being taken down in Daredevil during “Born Again” and his organization up for grabs. The Arranger, the Kingpin’s top man, is also introduced at this time, and surprisingly, the Arranger plays a key part in the next decades worth of stories (mainly b/c the Kingpin had become mainly Daredevil’s foe now).
o Hobgoblin in his glory, battling Spidey, battling others, working with Jack O’ Lantern but knowing full well that he would soon betray him, and then quickly disposing of Silvermane. Silverman, it seems, never dies though in his robot body, as this is like one of four times I’ve seen him killed off (he does have an interesting history though, from the Tablet saga to reappearing in Cap, to being paralyzed in the Green Goblin III saga, etc.)
o Punisher enters the fray. When the Punisher appeared at the end of the first part, it was one of his best entrances ever. Punisher-mania had really just started after his first mini, although it hadn’t kicked into high gear yet. Some good scenes b/t him and Spidey (I always like him better as a member of Spidey’s cast).
o The Rose revealed- We finally find out who the Rose is in pretty nonchalant way, as Richard Fisk is shown talking to a girl with his Rose mask in the other room. So, the Kingpin’s son is the Rose, which is something that many people (myself included) had guessed.
o The Rose kills a cop, we meet his partner and then pretty much exits the scene. The end of the Rose saga comes pretty unexpectedly during Gang War (which is really the reason it was written), as he kills a cop and begins having second thoughts about the whole thing. We also meet Alfredo, his partner, which comes kind of out of left-field and we learn that there is more going on than we thought. The Hobgoblin/Rose partnership is officially over, and the Rose appears to be retired.
o The Saga ends- Finally, it ends, with Kingpin coming back, killing everyone (though no one important, like Hammerhead), the heroes prevail. The ending always seemed like kind of a dud to me.

(Continued)

After Gang War, the chaotic villain madness seemed to be coming to an end. The Hobgoblin Saga was just about finished, with just a few loose ends to wrap up, which they did:

- The Death of the Hobgoblin- In #289, the mystery if finally over, and the identity of the Hobgoblin is finally revealed: Ned Leeds! It had gotten fairly obvious by this point, and to complicate matters, Ned had just died in the Wolverine/Spidey crossover! WTF? Enter Peter David, to try and fix things, and thus, we end up with issue 289. It seems Marvel considered backing out and making Hobby the Foreigner (which would have been a MAJOR mistake, as it doesn’t fit either character), but after rereading his appearances, David could see there was only one real choice to be Ned, as everyone else had official alibis. It would take Roger Stern, 20 years later, to come back and fix his creation, to give a real surprise reveal to the Hobgoblin identity.

But that was 20 years later, and in 1986, the Hobgoblin was Ned. And he was dead. Strangely, this anti-climatic ending fits for me, since it’s all I’ve ever known it as, but it marks a kind of end to an era for me in my Spidey collection. At this point, the real late 80’s/90’s/Image artists/mega Marvel marketing craze it hits, and the subplots from the early 80’s come to an end. The Hobgoblin saga ends, with nowhere near the climax as it should of, considering the buildup from #238, and from this point forward, Peter’s cast continues to be slowly destroyed. For example, Ned is dead, and while Flash is cleared at this point, but Betty now appears to have gone a little nuts after what happened. She pretty much exits Peter’s life now for quite awhile. We also now have it that throughout Spidey’s life, he’s known people who were super-villians in his life as Peter: Norman Osbourn, Harry Osbourne, Prof. Warren, Ned Leads, Liz Allen’s brother the Molten Man, etc. Now, most are related to the Goblin legacy that haunts Peter’s life (I see the Jackal as part of that), which when looked at like that, is an interesting and tragic theme.

Also, as I said, Jack O’ Lantern officially becomes Hobgoblin II, but never really recaptures the magic of the first one. Basically, he’s a common mercenary/thug. The magic of the Hobgoblin was that he was a mystery, as well as a normal man growing continually more evil and corrupted by power. In addition, he continued to weave himself into the already existing Spider-Man mythos, tying himself more to Peter and his supporting cast and their history as he went.

I should note though, that Roger Stern would one day come back, 20 years later, and add some additions to the story of Hobgoblin I that really made it all the more enjoyable and brought back a lot of this magic.

- Web of Spider-Man #31- the origin of the Rose. With Flash cleared, Ned revealed as the Hobgoblin and killed and the Gang War over, most of the ongoing subplots were cleared up. However, there was still the question of the Rose, which this random issue of WoS answered a month or so later. In it, we learn the origins of the Kingpin’s son becoming the Rose, Alfredo and his ties and the further developed origin of Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin. This issue definitely exists to try and iron out the kinks left over from the explanation in #289, although it creates a few more by its inconsistencies. As much as Ned as the Hobgoblin works in places, it just doesn’t work at all in others.

From this point forward, we would see the increased (since it was already present IMO) trend of Peter's supporting cast continually being dismantled. Following the Hobgoblin saga, Betty was gone, Ned was dead, Sha Shan was gone, and we hardly ever see Lance Bannon again. Additionally, Harry and Liz Osbourn, now with a son, hardly ever appeared anymore either, and were effectively eliminated from the reaccuring cast (they showed up from time to time). In ASM in particulur, the next 100 or so issues hardy ever involved any members of the supporting cast besides MJ, Aunt May and Jonah Jameson. The other two titles would continue to focus on these members, although the list of supporting cast members continued to shrink.

Major Changes in the Life of Spider-Man (ASM #290-292)

After the Hobgoblin Saga ended, an even bigger change hit Spidey’s life:

#292- Peter propses to Mary Jane. Again, it seemed to almost come out of nowhere, with Peter suddenly getting back with MJ, but then: Peter makes a HUGE step and proposes to MJ, again! This time though, it seems like it would genuinely work, although it still feels strangely sudden.

#293-294- Mary Jane says yes. After a quick story with the Spider-Slayers and the son of Spencer Smythe (Alistair Smythe), MJ says yes, after some soul-searching on her home, by confronting her sister (who we saw in her big secret issue a few months back).

Annual #18 (is that right?)- the wedding of MJ and Peter. All in all, this was a pretty sweet issue. Mainly, the scenes with May, JJJ, Harry, Flash, Liz and the rest made it great. Even Peter and MJ were sweet in it, and it was a happy scene. The idea that Peter and Mary Jane could live happily ever after is appealing, as is the idea that after Peter had gone through so much, and suffered through such pain, there was a light at the end of the road. However there were two main problems:

1. Peter’s life didn’t end at this issue, and we now see his continuing adventures as a married man. By being married, this changes the main dynamic of the series. Now Peter *has* an ally who knows his secret and is there for him, and is no longer quite as tragic. Also, being married takes away a major portion of the drama for his love life. Granted, a fight with the spouse is still drama, but it’s not the same when we know that MJ is his loving and dutiful wife. Plus, the writers have to make sure MJ stays likeable—any fighting about her wanting to make Peter quit makes her come off as a shrew, leaving the readers (even those who totally understand her position) thinking “Damn! Why can’t MJ just back off and let him save lives? What a selfish jerk!”. The marriage, although interesting because it follows the logical progression of Peter’s life, takes away much of the earlier dynamic. Now, after a long night of getting the crapped kicked out of him by the Scorpion, he can come home to his loving (and hot!) wife, who understands him, where previously, he had to come home and explain to his g/f why he was out, get in a fight and then wonder if things would ever work out for him.

2. This doesn’t really relate to the marriage, per se, but it relates to the direction the writers were going re: MJ being a famous super-model. Bad, bad idea. It just doesn’t ring true. We saw it coming already with the honey-moon in France (with the Puma ), and then go from there. With MJ famous, that kind of sheds a lot of light on Peter Parker. Plus, ol’ hard-luck Parker isn’t exactly hard up for luck with a super-model wire at home, that just happens to understand his need to battle the Rhino. It just becomes strange to see MJ become a celebrity—ironically, it feels more unrealistic than Electro attacking.


Next: McFarlane! Venom! The Return to the Old Costume!

Heh, my thoughts on the Hobgoblin stuff can be a bit wordy and long-winded. Sorry It’s my favorite era after all. Anway:

The McFarlane Era (ASM #298-228?)

After Peter and MJ’s wedding, a whole new was ushered in. Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man was changed to just “The Spectacular Spider-Man”, and both that title and Web of Spider-Man went in a whole new direction. In fact, the comics of this era look noticeably different all of a sudden: the paper was different, the art-styles had changed, the very atmosphere of the Marvel U was different. Fans during this era will know what I’m talking about. The late 80’s/early 90’s had arrived. The X-Men exploded, Punisher mania began, Ghost Rider was right around the corner, the great runs of the main Marvel books were coming to an end…

As for Amazing Spider-Man, it got an artist who perhaps was the hottest artist of the entire period: Todd McFarlane. Although controversial and what not, no one can deny that his art on ASM was amazing, stunning and just downright beautiful. His art definitely defined an era, and brought with it many imitators.

The return to the old Costume- the first thing McFarlane did (no idea whose idea it was) was restore Spidey to his classic costume and get rid of the black one. Now, I use to hate the black one, but have come to like it over the years, mainly b/c I know that he eventually switched back. Still, the beautiful covers by McFarlane look so much prettier when seeing Spidey in his red and blue costume. His renditions of the Green Goblin, the Lizard, the Scorpion, etc. are absolutely stunning too.

Venom- Even an old time Silver Age Spidey villain fan like me has to appreciate the power of Venom in the 90’s. To be honest, I’ve never really cared for Venom, although a lot of that stems from my Dad’s dislike of both Venom and Carnage, since he preferred the Silver Age villains too. In hindsight, he is a good Spidey villain, in that he’s different from the rest, and if for no other purpose, finally solves the issue of the symbiotic costume and restores Peter to his classic costume. There are two main problems with Venom in the late 80’s/90’s:

1) he is way, way, way overused. He basically shows up every ten issues from #300-#400.
2) He represents the height of the Image era ‘overdoing’ it with their art. Although not so much McFarlane, Larsen really over does it in terns of his teeth, his tongue, “I’m gonna eat your brains”, etc.

McFarlane does the classic villains- McFarlane’s stories, with David Michelline writing them, were very tight, good super-hero stories. Although they weren’t anything major, they were a lot of fun, and we were able to see Todd’s rendition of: Rhino, Scorpion, Lizard, the Black Fox (who I get a kick out of), and then a whole bunch more in a big crossover with Captain America and others (which wasn’t that good, but the art was nice).

The Hobgoblin versus the Green Goblin (and done by McFarlane too!)- In the “Inferno” crossover, evil demons scourged New York City and many heroes pitched in. This little nugget of a story is seamlessly thrown into the mix: Harry Osbourn, in a now rare appearance, shows up and puts on his father’s old Green Goblin costume to actually *help* NYC. And then, he battles the Hobgoblin! So, it’s actually Green Goblin II versus Hobgoblin II, but with Todd McFarlane drawing, it sure looks good. Of course, this opens up a ton of other questions, like what the hell is Harry thinking?, will this jog back his missing memories of being Green Goblin II?, does the Hobgoblin know the secret to the connection b/t the Osbournes and the Goblin legacy?, etc.—all of which are neither addressed nor answered. Oh well. Sure looks good!

Styx and Stone- for some reason, I like these two guys. They are undoubtedly the pinnacle of throw away 90’s villains, with heavy artillery, a dumb moniker and absolutey no chance in hell of beating Forbush Man, let alone Spidey, but they’re fun. I wouldn’t mind seeing them more often in the big villain fight scenes (you know, the ones that seem to happen every ten months now, with Spidey surrounded by all his foes).

The guy that stalks MJ- for some reason, I can’t remember his name off-hand…a first so far for me on this timeline. The story with the guy who stalks MJ and owns their apartment building is around this time. I’m not sure if others liked it, but I found it largely not so memorable. Peter and MJ being evicted on Christmas fits well into Spidey tradition though. It’s interesting to note that the apartments of Spider-Man, which were once a big part of the mythos, had become highly unmemorable by this time. Pete and MJ’s next one, with the sky-light is a little more, but they never had the same pizzazz that his old 70’s one with the giant Indian statue did.

And of course—Holy Moley, MJ is freakin’ hot!!- McFarlane did something amazing that virtually no comic creator had ever dared to do before: he actually changed MJ’s hairstyle! Were the fans outraged? Have you seen her? McFarlane quite suddenly had you believing MJ was a super-model, as he drew probably the hottest comic book characters since John Romita Sr. Like Jim Lee in X-Men, he was blowing people away, and suddenly, MJ looked really different, but kind of the same. But she looked really good. For the rest of the 90’s, MJ’s hairstyle would continue to change, and she gained a distinctly different look for this era—showing that it truly was a different time for comics.

On a related note, McFarlane also made Peter totally ripped and chiseled out of stone, so I guess he was equally as hot. Not bad for the bookworm. This had been gradual for the last 100 issues or so, but after McFarlane, the door was blown wide-open: Spider-Man had one of the best builds in comics.

All in all, McFarlane had a good run. By issue #328 or so, he was moved off of Amazing Spider-Man, because his popularity had grown so immense, so potent, that Marvel was sure he could carry his own comic, and could definitely make a killing on his own Spider-Man comic. Thus, the forth Spider-Man comic was born. In the meantime, while Todd McFarlane set a new trend on ASM, SS and WoS were undergoing a different but equally fun route.

A *very* late reply, but some thoughts:

Drake, it seems you have a lot of the same tastes as me! As I wrote in those huge reviews, I love the Prowler, am a big White Tiger fan, and think the MJ issue is one of the best ever in Spidey's history (definately her best moment). Cloak & Dagger, my Hobgoblin favorite issues, the Black Cat and of course the Romita and then Frenz art....all just great stuff.

I hope you, Matlock, and others continue to post your thoughts on current Spidey stuff and on various points in his past!

I'm happy to see you get this thread back on track Cobie!!!

I'll let you in on a hidden shame: I traded all those ASM McFarlane issues away years ago for I don't know, Magic cards or some crap. The only one I kept was when Harry put on the Goblin suit to try to defend his family. How dumb am I? When was the last time I played Magic, you might ask? Well, I met my wife in late 97. That was pretty much that.

I'm glad you decided to pick up on this thread Cobie! It's fun getting all nostalgic about Spidey's past. Not to derail your timeline reviews, but what are you talking about regarding Hobgoblin and Ned Leeds? Did they retcon that out or something?? I remember being completely let down by the whole Wolverine/Spider-Man crossover and that anti-climactic reveal of Hobie's identity!

I think I lost interest in Spider-Man around Gang War but being brought back by MacFarlane - following him from his run on the Hulk. He really was exciting at the time (though I lost interest in him by the time he debuted his adjective-less Spider-Man title). I also liked the Solo appearance during this era and Venom was awesome when he first appeared - he was a genuine threat to Spidey and Peter Parker. But of course the overexposure came soon enough to ruin him.

Drake, I hear you on Venom. You know, the story in ASM #300 (1st Venom) is actually really good and really creepy—and excellent first appearance for a major bad guy. But his overexposure did him in—I think it was really Larsen’s tenure that Venom appearances became “Oh, it must be that four month period of the year where they do another Venom story”.

Re: Ned and the Hobgoblin:

About 5 years ago, Roger Stern did a mini-series called “Hobgoblin Lives!” that went back into the mystery of Hobgoblin I and changed a few major things, and some could say (I lean towards this) that he ‘fixed’ the mystery of the Hobgoblin.

Basically, we see the ‘original’ Hobgoblin reappear, and that he has not been dead at all! He faked his death and has laid low for the last few years, amassing power and waiting for a good opportunity—he then reemerges and kills off Hobgoblin II (Jason Macendale, the former Jack O’Lantern), for some reason or another (couldn’t wait to kill him anymore?). Suddenly, Spidey realizes that the 1st Hobgoblin never did die and that Ned was completely set up!

So, Betty and Spider-man start trying to solve the mystery of who he really is. We see some old theories brought back up (even that Menken guy who helped run Oscorp, who appeared in exactly 6 panels ever reappears—all b/c some fan thought it might be him in the letters pages during that era! Funny enough, Menken has even later been retconned to have been a member of the Scriers all these years…how’s that for obscure character suddenly getting major backstory?)

Anyway, the original Hobgoblin is back, and it’s not Ned, so Betty (now a bigtime investigative reporter these days) and Spidey hunt him down and it’s revealed that he’s…

SPOILER
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Roderick Kingsley! Yes, shocker of all shockers!

In an even more complicated twist, we learn that his brother (now this will be stretching your memory), the one who never said much but always followed him around, was actually the ‘true’ Roderick Kingsley, and that the Roderick we know is actually the criminal brother—masquerading around all these years pretending to be a flamboyant playboy, when actually he’s the insidious mastermind Hobgoblin! Stern then adds in a whole bunch of plot points that show how Kingsley had the resources, etc. to become the Hobster.

We then get an old fashioned awesome Spider-Man/Hobgoblin battle a la 1981! And finally, Spider-Man beats and captures the first Hobgoblin, and Betty knows in her heart that it was never Ned.

Except: four months later, in some Spider-verse crossover, Norman Osbourne helps spring Hobgoblin I from prison (Hobgoblin I and Green Goblin I team-up!)…except we never really see what happens to him as that story kind of twindled. He’s currently on the loose, in hiding, or doing something…but Hobgoblin I lives.

Basically, I like seeing my all-time favorite Spider-Man villains still around and still really dangerous and cool, so I’m happy.

I, um, hope I cleared some of this up…

Matt, that’s a tough trade! I’m sure you’re wife would have loved those McFarlane Spidey issues far more than the Magic Cards…

Up next for the reviews is what was going on in WoS and SS during this time, which should bring us close to my other favorite Spider-villian in the last 25 years, Tombstone.

You want something even more complicated? Remember those issues that PAD thought meant Leeds HAD to be the Hobgoblin , while Priest (the editor) claims he had nothing to do with (I'm sure Priest had a longer article on that specifically at one point, but if he did it's gone...)?

Here's what Tom DeFalco, who wrote said issues , had to say

'Boot, this is awesome, thanks for sharing! I love stuff like this. I'm really curious as to who DeFalco meant the Hobgoblin to be.

I'm glad that Stern was able to finally finish it off (he created Hobbie and wrote the first half of his appearances), though I wonder if too much had happened in the past twenty years to make it so Stern never got to do what he wanted. For instance, Lance Bannon was killed in one of the dumbest Spidey stories of the 90's, in possible the worst death of a supporting cast member (and that's saying something for Spidey!). I've always been under the impression that DeFalco and Frenz were on the same page as Stern and Romita Jr. though.

I do know that David was stuck in a tight spot in going with Ned Leeds. Who would have DeFalco put in? In Gang War, Lance is shown side by side with the Hobgoblin, eliminating him...all that was really left *was* Kingsley, and even that is not a solid connection.

Look at the DeFalco links in my last post

Saw it and should have read it first

Interesting--


---Stern wanted it to be Kingsley all along and would probably have played up this mystery a bit more. (Read it in 'Boot's PAD link).

(Still didn't see DeFalco reveal who he had in mind though. Maybe I'm missing it?)
--------
EDIT: (I'll add to my own posts, so I don't have 5 gazillion posts on the Hobgoblin )

You know, the more I think about it (and sadly, I’ve thought about it quite a lot ), the more I’m glad the Hobgoblin lived.

First, Jack O’Lantern always kind of seemed crappy to me. Even before Hobbie kicked his ass, I thought he was a sacred rate villain—which is why he never compared as Hobgoblin II. I’m glad that Jack couldn’t just pay someone off to kill him.

Second, the Foreigner, while pretty cool, just wasn’t cool enough for me to have the kind of power to kill my favorite super-villains. I like the idea that Hobgoblin outsmarted them both, and then laid low for years, letting them assume he’d died. And even if Foreigner ever found out that he failed, it’s not like he’d come gunning for the Hobgoblin, especially now that Macendale is dead.

Over the years, you can argue that Spidey has had exactly (4) MAJOR villains: the Green Goblin, who should never have returned, Venom, who has been completely overexposed to the point where they’ve totally changed him, Doctor Octopus, whose own 40 years of overexposure have led to a ton of terrible Doc Ock stories and Hobgoblin—whose mystique was slightly destroyed by the crappy Hobgoblin II and by the way he died.

Now, I’d personally make it a point to make all (4) of them pretty damn scary and intimidating again, and they’ve laid a foundation now for Hobgoblin—they just need to capitalize on it, or please God just leave him alone. I’d also make Norman Osbourne died again and never return (him being alive = no longer the mystique of the great Spidey foe who killed Gwen and denied Peter his revenge), and focus on making Doc Ock and Venom like that too.

*sigh*

Willikers, 'Boot! I'm at work and stuff, and it's hard searching through posts

Richard Fisk as Hobbie and Kingsley as the Rose? It actually makes a little more sense...(interesting that eventually it's turned out to be the exact switch in current continuity). You know, I never thought of doing it that way before. I think I might have liked it.

It also would make the scene in #249, when the Kingpin saves Spidey's life b/c he thinks Hobgoblin is getting too big for his britches more dramatic in hindsight.

Hm...three things:

1. All of the current Spidey series in the last three months have left me cold. Not sure if this is bad writing or if I still feel hurt over what JMS did to Gwen's history.

[Edit- this does not include Ultimate Spider-Man, which I still enjoy.]

2. I think I'll pick these reviews up again soon . To be honest, this period is probably one I remember the least, but I'll rely on Matlock, Drake and others to remind me of what I missed.

3. Upon reviewing the last few posts, I totally missed something, posted by Drake. I too remember the Solo story and thought it was pretty cool. It made me wonder if McFarlane considered ever doing a Solo series, or if that was a character he had created when he was growing up. Solo certainly is a strait up 90's/Image type character, but just because he fits the era doesn't mean he isn't fun. With characters like Punisher and Silver Sable outgrowing Spidey in the 90's, new hero/villains were needed for stories like this, it appears.

I'm not buying the current Spidey series, but I will be picking up Ultimate Spidey for the "Warriors" arc with Ultimate Moon Knight, Shang-Chi and Iron Fist!

Spidey's also in "New Avengers" which I'm picking up. Bendis certainly does write good Spider-Man banter.

Oh, and thanks guys for catching me up to date on the Hobgoblin stuff as well as the behind the scenes struggles. Very interesting.

Tombstone, Gang Wars, Villains, Subplots & Married Life – SSM #131-164, WoSM #34-67

Coinciding with McFarlane on ASM, the other two Spidey titles went through their own era which IMO was equally as enjoyable. Great stories and a more traditional style of Spider-Man stories, with villains, gang wars and a focus on the supporting cast make this an equally memorable time period.

While McFarlane’s art was a show-stealer, the other two titles were more story-oriented. Sal Buscema’s long run on SSM went into effect, and I look at his art with a great fondness. This was not always so—I used to loathe it. But as I’ve reread the run a dozen times, I’ve started to enjoy it. WoSM, while not as good as SSM, also had some great storylines too.

That’s not to say this era was without its crappy stories. After all, this was the late 1980’s/early 1990’s, and crappy stories were everywhere, in every corner of the MU and DCU. At one point, Gerry Conway, who Spider-Man fans lamenting fifteen years earlier had the ‘kiss of death’ even returned for a brief run on WoSM. (One fan even wrote a classic letter: “Conway? Nooooooooooo! Give me Ock, give me Kingpin, hell give me Norman Osbourne…just not Conway!”).

Kraven’s Last Hunt – I meant to make mention of this earlier, but I’ll do so now. Right after MJ and Peter’s marriage, “Kraven’s Last Hunt” ran through all three Spider-Man titles, and I still think to this day its one of the best Spider-Man stories ever told. Kraven, here, is the most serious and strongest character wise he’d ever been in his history. Spidey’s fear, helplessness and confusion is so dramatic that it still sticks out in my mind today. A nothing character like Vermin suddenly became fascinating, and even MJ had some really great scenes. This was a very dark tale, possibly the darkest ever in Spidey’s history at that point…but a very good one. Some very dramatic imagery too by Mike Zeck (wish he did more comics), and an excellent psychological story by J.M. Dematteis in the style that he has mastered. My father told me that long ago, comic book review magazines didn’t like this story and critics buried it for its grittiness—which is too bad, because I think all in all it’s a pretty kick-ass story. As someone who prefers the Silver Age villains, I’d hate to see any of them die…but it works so well here that it’s the perfect end to this story, and shows a strong respect to Kraven that had not been shown to him in two decades.

Second Sin-Eater Story (SSM #133-136) – Peter David returned for a second Sin-Eater story that featured the first Sin-Eater (who had killed Jean Dewolf and been horribly beaten by Spider-Man) and a second mysterious Sin-Eater, as well as Electro (who was welcome here). Though not as good as the first, this second story-arc is another good one IMO, and shows the kind of stories that Peter David excelled at in the 1990’s (and still does), with a very thorough look at the guilt Spider-Man felt about hurting the first Sin-Eater so bad, as well as the guilt he felt over Jean DeWolf’s death, when he had no control over it. There is even a bit of closure at the end in relation to what I deemed ‘Spidey’s Agony’ three pages ago.

Hobgoblin II – the Hobgoblin, my favorite Spider-Man villain, was now dead, and a new Hobgoblin had take his place (the old Jack O’Lantern). Finally, in WoSM #38, we see him fight Spidey…and what a let-down. Right away, the Hobgoblin is handled poorly and the mystique he once held is all but gone, as this new Hobgoblin is a shadow of the original. I’m unsure if it was intentional, or if the writer just didn’t care, but Hobgoblin II was handled as a second-rate villain of yesteryear, despite being one of the newest additions to Spidey’s rogues gallery. This trend would not go away for the rest of Hobgoblin II’s appearances and it appeared the glory days of Stern and Romita Jr., and even DeFalco and Frenz, were long-gone. It would take nearly two and a half decades later to bring the menace of the Hobgoblin back to what it once was.

Cult of Love, Betty all crazy, Looter returns… - Like I said, WoSM had some pretty weak story lines. Notably, Betty Brant went effectively crazy after Ned’s demise and was effectively written out of the series. Joining the large majority of all of Peter’s friends, Betty would not be seen for some time, and continue the trend of stripping away Peter’s supporting cast.


Tombstone – In WoSM and then SSM, a new villain appeared, who in my opinion, was the best new villain of this whole era. Tombstone, when first appearing, was menacing, cunning and downright scary. His impact on this era is apparent when viewing the covers—suddenly, Tombstone was all over the covers. He appeared in virtually every issue, becoming a recurring antagonist, whether fighting Spidey directly or being immersed in the crime scene of NYC. Additionally, he had a very interesting subplot with Joe Robertson that pitted him at odds with the beloved friend of Spidey. This gave Robbie a chance to shine for the first time in ages and we got to see new sides to him, as well as his wife and Randy (his son). Although some might say that Robbie was depicted as cowardly at times, I think that this presented us the opportunity to see Robbie vulnerable for the first time, and then eventually overcome that vulnerability and show the strength of character that had defined him in the late Silver Age. I like Tombstone and the sudden role he played in the series. Later, he’d be treated (like all Spider-Man’s enemies at one point or another) as an idiot, but that’s not an accurate portrayal and shows poor research on later writer’s parts. Tombstone is obviously a sociopath, but a very cunning and frightening one. And damn, he looks cool.

The NYC Underworld – After a brief period of not seeing the Underworld since the demise of the Hobgoblin and the Gang War, WosM and SSM eventually returned to it for our viewing. Like in most things, WoSM didn’t have the same depth of story that SSM did, but we still saw some interesting characters. Hammerhead reemerged as an important player, being scene as a powerful crime boss and recurring enemy of Spidey—rather than someone for ‘ol Webhead to tussle with, as he had been in the 70’s. We also saw more and more of the Arranger, the to lieutenant of the Kingpin that had introduced as a throwaway character to battle Spidey, while Frank Miller and the Daredevil writers focused on Kingpin in Daredevil’s comic. As this continued to happen and we saw less and less of the Kingping in Spidey, the Arranger came to the forefront as a very interesting character.

Tombstone/Punisher/Persuader – With the above background set as the NYC criminal world, and Tombstone now a part of Spidey’s life, a 4-parter ran through SSM which featured all of the above, as well as the Persuader, a mutant drawn in to help the mob, and the Punisher, who always makes for good crime drama in a Spider-Man story. The ending killing of the Persuader is surprising, but effective (in showing the difference between the Punisher and Spidey), and this story shows that things were progressing with the subplot of the organized criminal world. Here, we are introduced to the Lobo Brothers, who will become a recurring duo of enemies for Spider-Man, as well as the established mobsters in NYC. With the Arranger and Hammerhead on opposing sides, the Lobo Brothers now make a third element in the equation. Maintaining the ‘super-powered organized crime antagonism’ that the Rose and Hobgoblin had restored to the Spider-Man titles, this makes for further interesting drama.

Other Villains – Boomerang has a good battle with Spider-Man, actually marking his first appearance in a Spidey title. Although around since the Silver Age issues of Tales to Astonish, he never actually fought the Web-slinger until now, despite commonly being thought of as a Spider-Man villain today. Earlier, we also saw the first appearance of a second Tarantula although he would not last long (killed in his next appearance in ASM). The Vulture also had a brief story IIRC.

Inferno Crossover – I spoke of the Green Goblin/Hobgoblin battle in my review of McFarlane’s ASM, but the crossover also hit the other two Spidey titles. Although not visually as pleasing as the Todd M’s work, we did get to see Spidey’s supporting cast in action, and see the Bugle staff battling demons. JJJ cheers them on telling them they’re New Yorkers and to fight harder, back to back with Spidey—oh, how things had changed. Not that I mind, since Jonah had become likeable long ago. He now maintained a quiet antagonist role, and more of a gruff supporter of the supporting cast, especially Robbie (who had his Tombstone issues).

Aunt May, MJ, etc. – Besides the Bugle staff, MJ and Aunt May remained stalwart members of the supporting cast, as they had for some time now, and remained heavily in Peter’s life. After all, he was a married man now, and we got to see what married life was like for Spidey. These earliest years actually make it seem great, and its nice to see Peter happy—unknowingly, the fans would not grow bored of this for awhile. MJ is supportive too, and rarely fights the Spider-Man aspect of Peter’s inclinations. Gone were the days of ditzy, jerk MJ and here were the days of supportive, smart and helpful MJ. Aunt May’s boyfriend Nathan Lubiensky (I know I spelled that wrong ) was also recurring, and we occasionally were treated to Flash, who remained single, and Harry & Liz (with Normie). It was always welcome to see them, but the dynamic wasn’t as potent as the old days. With Harry and Liz married and MJ and Peter, it was…well…weird to see them all so happy and grown up. It was satisfying though, but it meant we’d see them less. With Betty written out of the series, as so many others were, this was about all that was left of Peter’s non-Bugle friends. Occassionaly they’d introduce others, but they’d be gone as quick as they came. Not being in college seemed to hinder the spread of where Pete would venture off too, with his scientific studies all but discarded and his focus on the Bugle, Spidey and MJ’s life.

The Bugle – Along with JJJ and Joe Robertson, we also saw some of the Bugle staff more. Gloria Grant reemerged as a central character for the first time in a long time, which was welcome. Lance Bannon was seen quite a bit less with the Hobgoblin Saga all wrapped up, but we occasionally got a glimpse of him (and usually to take a job away from Pete). One welcome addition was the DD supporting character Ben Urich, who at about this time became a supporting character to a good portion of the MU. He was relatively recurring in these two titles and maintained the same characterization he had in Daredevil. Another un-welcome addition to the cast was Nick Kurtzenberg, a nemesis photographer for Peter *and* Lance. Unlike Lance however, Nick was a complete jerk, and an annoying one to Peter and the fans as well (I can’t think of a single person who would like this character). For some time, he would continue to pop up (mainly in WoSM).

‘What about Carrion?’ – I saw this cover the other day and smiled. And about this time, the Spider-Man editors decided to return to a very, very complicated plot, and bring back, of all people, the Gwen clone in one of the annuals. This led to a hokey explanation by the High Evolutionary about the Jackal, cloning and the Gwen clone, all of which had been left in the past looooong ago. Years later, this would of course cause much confusion in the Clone Saga. They then decided to address the other outstanding continuity glitch (caused by the Annual)—what about Carrion? Thought before to be the living clone of Professor Miles Warren!!!, we now learn that Carrion is more like a virus…and thus meet Carrion II! This isn’t the worst thing ever, since Carrion is very striking visually, but it kind of undercuts the great story that occurred years earlier in early issues of PPTSM, where Carrion is presented as a very genuine threat to Spider-Man. The Carrion Saga had been a continuation of the Jackal Saga, which essentially was a continuation of the Green Goblin Saga. Decades long returns to past MAJOR plots had produced some great stories, but now the first big monkey wrench was thrown into the continuity machine.

Web of Spider-Man #50 – Sandman! Puma! Rocket Racer! Prowler! Will O’Wisp! Silver Sable! I enjoy this issue because it features a bunch of my favorite characters—namely all of Spidey’s enemies that had ever gone good (except Black Cat I guess, and Sable had never been bad). I have a special place in my heart for Rocket Racer, Puma and especially the Prowler, and I like the Sandman as both good and bad. Will O’Wisp is good too, but I admit I only like him b/c I’m so immersed in Spidey’s history.

MJ’s niece – another subplot at this time was the introduction of MJ’s niece (cousin?), who is a teenager, annoying, and seems to be causing tension between Peter and MJ. A subplot scene countless other times in various things, I found her relatively annoying. She eventually turns out to have bulimia. This always left me slightly conflicted: A) they handled it pretty well, but B) wow, this wreaks of a Punky Brewster/after school special that was particularly prominent in our culture during this era. Which, as a child of that era, was very annoying.

The Lobo Brothers War Part I – The Lobo Brothers continue to be a recurring nemesis (and thus, their enemies Hammerhead and the Arranger do), which makes for great drama. Even more, one of them suddenly develops a relationship with…Gloria Grant?! Gloria, who may have been the *only* person in Peter’s life that didn’t really cross into Spidey’s, is now yet another friend of Peter’s with an intense relationship with a super-villain/crime boss? You have to wonder if they’ll ever do a story where they all sit down and compare notes (actually that’d be cool – ‘the shadows of Norman Osborne and Spider-Man are ever present among us…’). On the plus side, at least we see more Gloria. Even more, we get to see Hammerhead in all his glory smash Spidey with his, er, hammer-head!

Robbie goes to Jail/Return of Tombstone – Following the revelations of a bad decision he made when he was a lot younger, Robbie reveals he did not speak up upon witnessing a murder (the right thing to do), and gets sent right to prison. Its heartbreaking to see Robbie go to prison (and slightly unrealistic, with mean big judge and all). Once there, who is on his cell-block? Tombstone! *This* makes for good drama, and the 11 year old Cobie was literally fraught with fear for poor Robbie, stuck in that jail with his arch-nemesis! Another prisoner befriends Robbie (a big guy named Bruiser—and I can not and never will ever associate my childhood reading of Spider-Man with my adult-hood viewing of ‘Oz’, so the mere mention of something awful here is too much for me to bear), and helps him against Tombstone. Unfortunately for Robbie, Tombstone kills him!

Chameleon Impersonating JJJ – Running in WoSM while the Tombstone Saga ran in SSM, the Chameleon begins to impersonate JJJ, much to Jonah and his wife Marla’s chagrin! An interesting subplot that allows us to focus on Marla Jameson, who we hadn’t seen much in awhile, although overall, isn’t the greatest attack the Chameleon has ever pulled. It also has Spidey working side by side with Jonah once again, proving that the dynamic between those two characters is one of the most unique and one of the most entertaining in all of comics history.

Spidey & Joe R vs. Tombstone! – the focus on Tombstone is as present as ever, as Spidey actually goes to the jail to help Robbie against Tombstone (the liberties the writers took even then, in the not so distant past are just plain great). After getting the crap get kicked out of him, and stopping a prison riot for another time, Tombstone and Robbie break free! Tombstone’s relationship with Robbie has taken on a bizarre twist at this point, where Tombstone is actually looking out for him—and actually seems to like him. However, he still will probably want to kill him. Following this, they end up among…inbred Deliverance types with some giant guy named Banjo? No problem—more Spidey versus Tombstone, Robbie showing his backbone, they beat Tombstone, but Tombstone is lost! Following this long-running storyline, Robbie has conquered his fear of Tombstone, and is commuted out jail (or something), and he returns to his traditional role at the Bugle. Meanwhile, Tombstone is now free too, and reemerges in the big gang war that’s been brewing these past few months. The story between the two, of course, is not over yet, but its been a wild ride so far (and a good one—despite Bruiser and Banjo ).

The Finale of the Lobo Brothers Saga – another story comes to a close as the Lobo Brothers are beaten once and for all by Spidey, as Gloria fires a gun into the fray—but she wasn’t aiming at Spidey! After falling in love with one of them, she tragically shoots the man she loves, killing him. The other Lobo Brother runs away (not seen to this day), leaving Gloria reeling.

Acts of Vengeance and Cosmic Spidey – Although I sometimes write tongue in cheek, I for the most part enjoy all the above stories. These, however, had a certain amount of overt goofiness, as Spidey becomes Captain Universe throughout Acts of Vengeance. Even as a young lad, I could see that ‘Acts’ was relatively cheesy, although it made for some good action.

Puma/Daily Bugle – the Puma returns, still popular among Spidey fans, including this reader. He becomes immersed in a Daily Bugle subplot, where he actually buys the Daily Bugle and controls it for a time, making life easier on Spider-Man. Eventually he sells it back to JJJ (for $1), after making Joe Robertson the Publisher. While a part of the cast, he interacts with MJ and the rest, as ell as helps out Spidey during some fights (including ‘Acts’).

He also pitches in against the demonized Hobgoblin after Hammerhead hires him to kill Joe R, although that fight is stopped by Tombstone (no one kills Robbie but me). The way all of these plots weave into one another shows excellent pacing of the overall progression of the comic IMO.

Demon-Hobgoblin and Carrion team-up!! - A fun villain team-up story reminiscent of the Spidey stories of old. What I remember most about this story (other than thinking ‘OK, so we got demon-Hobbie who is nothing like the original and non-clone virus Carrion, who is nothing like the original’) is that despite any bad things, it was a fun story of two bad guys teaming up against Spidey.

Return of the Molten Man – The Molten Man gets out of prison, and apparently is actually going strait! Although this was done with the Sandman earlier, it actually fits the Molten Man’s long career, as he had been tragic for decades since he started to be on fire all the time. Now back to how he originally was, Mark Raxton becomes very likeable as a former thug trying to be an honest citizen, despite being covered in pure, er, molt. He’s also Liz Allen’s step-brother, which makes for good drama with Harry and Liz (always good to see them). If anything, I prefer the Molten Man be the villain of Spidey’s that actually went strait and stayed that way (Sandman could go either way for me, and Prowler and Rocket Racer were never *really* villains).

Spidey versus all the baddies from Acts of Vengeance, with no Captain Universe powers! – a very fun, fun issue with non-stop action. Stories like this should happen every once and awhile for Spidey to show him cutting loose and doing what he does best.

Molten Man, Spidey and Green Goblin II team-up! – With Molten Man out of prison, Harry Osborne joins his brother-in-law and Spidey (can’t remember if it was against Tombstone or others)…as the Green Goblin! It’s here that Spidey realizes he needs to shut Harry being the Goblin down, as no good can come of it (and indeed, none did). After all, Harry is supposed to not be able to remember his time as Green Goblin II, so at this point, his memories probably begin to stir. Harry remains a good guy throughout this issue, but I can’t help but loathe knowing what will happen to him—after all, Harry is one of the few people to have been his friend for so long that’s still alive. The visual, however, of seeing Molten Man an Green Goblin helping Spidey, is very pleasing on the eyes.

As you might be able to tell, despite my joking, I very much love the above stories. Tombstone was a great villain, and this was a great era for subplots, gang wars and villains battling it out with Spidey. While Todd McFarlane was blowing people’s minds away in ASM, these titles maintained some great stories. There’s not really any true turning point for this era, but I’ll cut it off here to limit the length of this massive post.
At about this time, Larsen took over ASM and McFarlane got his own 4th Spidey title, and these two just rolled along…

Current Spidey titles:
'The Other' - garbage. Long, boring, not much happening. Spidey as Tony Stark's follower, New Avengers everywhere, MJ and Aunt May complaining and not doing anything, no supporting cast, no subplots, no villains.

ASM - still find JMS's run very annoying.

Marvel Knights Spidey - liked Millar's run, thought Hudland was 'ok', not overly eager for current issues.

FNSM - have high hopes for PAD, but at this time bored with the Other, so we'll see.

Spidey, as written by Bendis in New Avengers - fun, enjoyable Spidey, the one that I love. Don't really like him on the roster of a Super-team though.

USM - the best current Spider-Man book, despite any flaws. Above all, FUN. Really enjoying the Kitty Pryde relationship and I love how MJ is. The stories seem a bit drawn out lately, but that's OK. I can critique this book b/c I actually love it--the others have left me so high and dry that I have no desire to give them the time of day enough to critique them.

Current Spider-costume
I know its not permanent, but *groan*.

Yay Cobie! Glad to see this thread get a much welcomed bump.

Thanks Matt

I was hoping you, Drake and some others would enjoy it!

I'm a wordy sonuvagun

Current Spidey Round-Up
The Black Costume is back! When I was a wee lad, I hated the black costume, because my father was a traditionalist who lived through it in the 80's and despised it. I've come to appreciate it though, and I don't mind a return to it, since I know that w/o a doubt we'll return to the classic red and blue, which I feel is one of the best super-hero costumes of all time.

Amazing Spider-Man - I have to say I've come to loathe JMS' Spidey in a way I rarely do in comics. Virtually unreadable to me.

Sensational Spider-Man - this continues to feel like a comic I'd reccomend to a 12-13 eyar old, and that is not a bad thing. I think its action-packed with stylistic in-your-face art, and there are lots of villains. Even the supporting cast in this comic is basically the Black Cat and Puma (both of whom I really like). However, if you're looking for the Citizen Kane of Spider-Man comics, this isn't for you. But if you're looking for some Spider-Man action, this is good.

Peter Parker, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man - Like I figured would happen, PAD has really picked up steam as a writer and this book has come into its own. While at first kind of slow, I think PAD has done a good job at making this a good Spider-Man comic, but more importantly, an excellent Peter Parker comic, which anyone with half a brain knows is what you need for a good Spider-Man story. Having Betty, Flash, Debra Whitman and a new character in the mysterious school nurse is a brillant return to filling Spidey's life with supporting characters. The recent Mysterio and Vulture arcs was great and the return of the Sandman is also good. I like PAD using Spidey's classic foes but not in the usual cliche.

Of course, the continual problem of Peter being stuck in the 'Pete, MJ and Aunt May sticking together' phase remains a centrical problem in that it pretty much as gotten beyond boring at this point. Something else else needed to be done, and apparently, with Aunt May in a coma, something might be. I've said it a thousand times and I stick to it: Aunt May should never have been ressurected (you either Norman Osbourn). And I actually do agree with Joe Q, Pete and MJ's marriage has indeed become a problem. Making Pete's identity known to the public did not help, it made it more unlike Spider-Man. I guess we'll have to see what happens, since I don't doubt Spider-Man will be around in 10 years, long after all of the current writers and editors have moved on, and I'm stuck here with all that's left of the comics fanbase reading

Cool I did not know this thread existed until today lol... I've just started reading spidey again and yeah I agree. FNSM is by far the better title. In retrospect while I was excited back when JMS started writing Amazing (what can I say I was a fan of Babylon 5), I do think that may have been partially resposible for me droping the title with #44, true I dropped comics periond back then, but the title wasn't doing much to keep me on either.... anyway, it looks like he will be done soon so things should be looking up.

Yeah, I agree. I remain optimistic b/c I think Spidey lends himself so well to the medium. I also was very enthusiastic about JMS initial run of stories. They truly felt like this would be a great new era.

Then there were a bunch of boring/going nowhere sotries, focusing on the magic side of the MU (which doesn't fit Spidey no matter how you cut it). Around the time of the Gwen/Norman story it got really awful and has only gotten steadily worse.

Nice to see this thread resurface! Maybe I missed it, but have you gotten to the whole "I need four new identities for some contrived reason as a way to spawn a spin-off series that's barely tangentially connected to Spider-Man!" (re:Slingers)? While I really liked that series, it was doomed from the start with that ill-conceived four-separate #1's nonsense (talk about pushy).

So what's Puma doing over in "Sensational"? He hasn't undergone some kind of revamp has he?

Hm...upon a re-check, I left off just at Larson's run on Amazing. The 'four identities instead of one' thing is still about ten years later in the 90's...I'll have to revisit the reviews soon

But currently, Puma and the Black Cat are helping out in Sensational. They have a little fling together going on, and both are more along the lines of 'good guys that pinch in to help Spidey'. I'd say Puma is being written in character, but we aren't seeing much in regards to Thomas Fireheart, just what he's been up to when he's transformed into Puma and hooking up with the Black Cat. Its obvious he's only helping Spidey b/c the Black Cat keeps helping him and getting herself into awkward situations. Thankfully no revamp here (yet at least).

Prof--I'm behind on your cartoon reviews (and just about all Gym'lls threads these days), but keep 'em coming!

Amazing to be the Loan Spidey comic! Coming out three times a month! Interesting news, though an obvious marketing ploy. I've never *not* collected all the Spidey titles, so it doesn't effect me, but we'll see what this means story wise. The article got boring after awhile, so I'm not exactly sure how the creative teams will work

<----------Attention Deficit on Fridays Cobie

Loan? What, you can only borrow rather than buy?

And, hey, you never posted your thoughts on the Sensational Annual for all to see

Thanks for the reminder!

Per a PM to Reboot (hope you don't mind 'Boot!)
Re: Sensation Spider-Man Annual.

You were right. It was really great. A great, great Peter and Mary Jane tale after quite awhile.

Funny thing was, I could name you those issues they were references (probably be off by an issue or two, since you know I don’t check that stuff ). Issue #59 or so is with Gwen and MJ dancing. But Spider-Man #88 is when he walks into the party and says he’s Spider-Man. Issue #143 is when he’s at the airport on the way to France (to fight Cyclone) and finally kisses Mary Jane.

It was good to see Mary Jane again. And I don’t mean 1960’s party-girl Mary Jane, but the Mary Jane after all these years. Thanks for pointing this out to me ‘Boot'.

...you know, it really was a great issue. With time for comics becoming less and less these days for me, it was a treat to read an issue with Pete and MJ written...well, *in character*. I hope to see more of it. I guess we'll know soon enough though, eh? (Slightly worried/slightly unable to muster emotion in this era of non-stop comics change).

I tend to prefer MJ before Gerry Conway made her morose, and Len Wein turned her into a whining, clinging, complaining, possessive, "typical" girlfriend.

The All Spider-Man San Diego Comic Con Panel

Round Table Discussion with 8 new creators

Dan Slott, Steve McNiven, Dexter Vines and Morry Hollowell
Marc Guggenheim, Salvador Larrocca and Jason Keith
Bob Gale, Phil Jimenez, Andy Lanning and Jeromy Cox
Zeb Wells, Chris Bachalo, Tim Townshend and Antonio Fabela

So, Dan Slott?!

McNiven, Larocca, Jimenez and Bachalo?!!!

*ONE* title, as Amazing, shipping multiple times a month?!!!

New stories, new ideas, new villains and a focus on Peter's supporting cast, something that has been lacking for *years*?!!!!

Well, I'm pretty damn excited! This could end up being the best time to be a Spider-Man fan in years--nay, decades! I've got to say, I like where Marvel is going with this.

Though I've said that marrying Peter was a mistake, I've said multiple times that I'm cool with whatever happens to the marriage either way (whether it stays or goes--I'll still be there after anyway afterall). So that's hardly the most important thing on my mind. What I like is the consolidation of the titles, the quality of the creators and what I'm hearing so far.

I'm very, very excited about all of this.

Slott [have I mentioned I don't like him? Pretty sure I have, but just in case] made reference to "the...can't get a date...Spider-Man" @ Newsarama. They're "Scarlet Witching" it. [BTW, the "thrice monthly"ness was confirmed a month back]

Between Slott, Bachalo and this, my interest just hit Zero.

Really? I've been very impressed with Slott so far--I definately like him a lot. I never read that FCD Spidey story you mentioned to me though (which I recall you didn't like).

Did you know who Bill Mantlo intended Carrion to be?

And we have THAT ASM writer and THAT editor to thank for the eventual Clone Saga Tom DeFalco "gifted" us with. Who were in those spots then, Des?

Regardless, fascinating stuff in this Mantlo Tribute book. There are two sections devoted to his runs on PPTSS, as well as MTU and various Hulk/Spidey team-ups. Spider-fans should order it-- see my Mantlo thread for how-- for the Spidey stuff alone.

Wow Bri, thanks for the input! I never heard of that before. Its funny how little I really know about behind the scenes stuff for my favorite comics. Sounds like the Mantlo tribute book would be up my alley. He was one of my favorite Spidey writers ever.

I actually probably like the reveal the way it ended up, probably because it’s the only way I’ve known it for so many years. And the Jackal has always been on of my fave Spidey villains, even before the clone saga blew a young Cobie’s mind.

One day I’ll do a full review of the Clone Saga. It gets such a bad wrap, but I have to say, within it are moments of brilliance. At least the beginning and some of the many endings (tongue planted firmly in cheek). But so much of the middle was rough on the readers.

Carrion (the original) remains one of my favorite Spidey villains too. I find it fascinating that Mantlo intended it to be the Peter clone. Because yes…that makes *so* much more sense!!

I'm not sure (my indexes need updating), but ti looks like the Carrion story came out in 1979, and Marv Wolfman was both writer & editor of ASM in '79. So, we probably have Marv to "thank" for derailing Bill Mantlo's ending.

In the then-heiracrhy of Marvel writers, Mantlo always seemed to be considered 2nd or 3rd level. I'll never forget how he did many fill-ins on IRON MAN, before finally taking over the book after so many others dropped off. Took him a while to get up to speed, but just as it was REALLY getting good-- he got KICKED OFF because David Michelinie & Bob Layton, who'd just come over from DC, wanted the book. I know they did good work-- but I've always thought they way they got the book really stunk.

Thanks for the info, prof.

Marv was his own editor? I know that was fairly common in the 70's. But the quote from Tony Isabella sounds like he was refering to two individuals; who was editor-in-CHIEF at that time?

I think that was before Shooter's time as EiC...

Cobie's Spidey Round-up! Well, with One More Day on the horizon and huge changes to come, I'll wrap up my reviews of what I'd say is one of the most controversial times in Spidey's history--filled with both stories I'd consider pure crap, and others that surprisingly impressed me.

PAD's FNSM - despite moving on, PAD did what he always does and provided us Spidey fans with a really great final issue to his run, which lasted an impressive two years. I think all in all, PAD did something very subtly these last two years. While Marvel made Spidey an Avenger, revealed his identity to the world and caused internet controversy about his marriage to MJ, PAD gave real Spider-Man fans a few little gifts that I wish I could thank him for. He restored Betty Brant and Flash Thompson to the Spidey-mythos. He used the Civil War stuff to his advantage to update Debra Whitman. And now, his latest issue, is pure J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Robertson, who longtime Legion Worlders will know are two of my favorite characters in all of comics (JJJ is perhaps the greatest supporting character of all time IMO). And what a great issue it was. PAD seems to get Jonah completely—in that, not only does he understand the motivation of the character as he was created, but he also understands that Jonah has 40+ years of history and character progression and has shown to be a pretty strong character in regards to morals, standing up for what he believes in, and standing by people he admires, such as Robbie.

Eliminating the Daily Bugle from Spidey’s comics was a very, very stupid move. There are ways to have it be a major part without making Peter a freelance photographer. PAD got that, and gave it to us. Thanks for a great run (as always) PAD!

Meanwhile, in JMS’s Amazing Spider-Man, which I can accurately describe as ‘Started out as amazing as the title implies, but quickly turned into a long series of crappy shock value stories, long winded plots and mis-characterization’, I was kind of shocked by his final story. Shocked in how good it was. I guess its fitting that I enjoyed JMS final story almost as much as I enjoyed his first, after living through a pretty crappy middle. But he did a good job with Pete and MJ and he obviously gets the Kingpin very well. While many times his pacing seems slow and long, it actually felt spot on here. Can’t say I’m sorry to see him go. But I do acknowledge that JMS is a pretty good writer—I just want him away from my favorite comics character ASAP. The art has been nothing short of amazing, however.

In Sensational, I have to say, I sometimes can barely make it through an issue. There have been good points (the annual, the Black Cat/Puma subplot), but overall, its kind of dragged lately. The Venom story-arc was not bad, but it wasn’t exactly great.

And so ends yet another era of Spidey’s history. I’ve stated quite vehemently that the marriage was a bad idea. But I don’t want anyone to mistake that notion for me being ‘pro-erasing the marriage from continuity’. I know from DC experience that those decisions never, ever work to the character’s benefit. But Marvel’s caught in a conundrum. Whatever they do, no matter how many fans they anger, I’ll of course stick by Spidey, because that’s where my loyalty lies. But unlike the Legion’s colorful history, Marvel needs to make a final decision and then move the hell on with it—so I can get my head around whatever the hell they’re planning and start enjoying Spider-Man comics again, which I have not for quite a long time (USM not counting). All in all, I’ve read through the Spider-Mobile, the killing of almost 85% of Spidey’s cast, the Clone Saga, the John Byrne Aunt May Reboot and tons of other controversial (and sometimes outright awful) eras. I can live with this. I’ve been more loyal to Peter Parker than any writer, artist, comic book company or fanbase than anything else since I started reading comics on a regular basis at age 11, which happened to be Amazing Fantasy #15 – Amazing Spider-Man #289, in my basement with my Dad. I’ll, of course, maintain that loyalty. Though I hardly expect others to do so.

What is the problem with just killing of MJ? I know there is confirmation out there of "erasing" Peter's time with her but why go that route? That's like the stupid House of M and its consequences. Can't anyone at Marvel just come up with a decent story to end the marriage instead of getting rid of it from the collective MU memory?

I don't get the uproar over how no one can get into the Legion because of their history when you look back at Spidey's history or even that of the X-Men. Both are much more confusing and make it hard just to pick up any of the titles, beyond the once promising Ultimate Universe books.

I think Joey Q was the worst thing to happen to Marvel.

They did kill her off (well, Byrne did). And then they brought her back under Joe Q's reign.

Basically, Q's argument is that a married, divorced, OR widowed Peter "ages" him.

Oh, and "Scarlet Witching" it, as I put it to Cobalt, = Teh Crap...

[PS: Byrne thought about doing basically exactly this himself. And *he* pulled back as he thought it went to far. Mr "Chapter One"...]

Ages him? Are we supposed to believe that he's still in high school? College? The last time I really paid attention he was a teacher and I thought that was perfect for him. The MU can be updated but the heroes can't age. I know, a problem with all comics. But fixing it mid-stream without a full reboot is plain dumb.

And sorry if this offends but he's supposed to chose the life of his Aunt over his life with MJ? May is well past her expiration, not that she's not a great old bird. But, no. I don't believe it. May has lived a long and very eventful life and now gets to still be a plot line to be mis-used in favor of MJ no longer figuring into Peter's life.

Basically, it seems like they're doing it as a super-mindwipe, ala Flash #200 (no, I didn't like that either...), rather than a retcon per se. So if you time-travel to pre-OMD, you'll find a married Peter regardless of what any flashbacks say happened, rather than an altered timeline ala Crisis.

Actually, if Dan Slott's "Jackpot" thing is what it seems to be, it's worse than that...

Sorry to change the topic, but what's the story with "One More Day"? I read that Peter's going to have to choose between Aunt May's life and his marriage never having existed?? Did I read that right? How is that even supposed to be an option? if this is the case, it sounds more lame-brained than the whole clone thing...

It is.

I'm about three weeks behind in my comic shopping, so I've only read part 1, but that issue was typical JMS padding-nothing happening stuff. Basically, Peter is upset because Aunt May is in a hospital bed and he's on the run. A wasted issue.

Reboot could probably tell us more about OMD is supposed to accomplish. My expectations are very low for it. Whatever the end result is, the actual execution of the storyline appears to be very lame indeed.

Seminal Spidey artist John Romita, Sr.'s most recent interview .

Cool fact about the Romitas.

Young John Jr. created his own villain to fight Spidey at the tender age of around 6-9 or so. John Sr. was the 'man' at that point in Spidey's history, having done about 45 issues or so at that point, and decided to humor his son, and do some minor tweaking (not much apparently), and then use the character in a Spidey story.

That character was the Prowler. John Rominta Jr.'s first contribution to the Spidey-mythos, and one of my all-time favorite comics characters.

Cobie = big, big, big fan of both Romitas, especially on Spidey and Daredevil. John Sr.'s Gwen, of course, was my first real crush, both fictional and non-fictional

BTW, I recently reread ASM #90 - 149 (ending with the finale of the Jackal/Clone Saga--the first one). Man, I love those issues. Really just love them...and still get choked up after Gwen's death fifteen years after I first read it.

One day I may return to doing some reviews on Spidy's past and give you my surprising analysis of it. For example the Clone Sage...actually pretty damn awesome. Followed by: John Byrne and the Gathering of the Five...the downfall of Spidey (or) how Spidey became confusing like the Legion and X-Men. Finished by...JMS's Spidey...screw the characters and fans, lets shock someone.

That reference is from the final four part saga that wrapped up the clone saga, IIRC. I can almost see the cover...pumpkins on it to signify halloween, but its actually a clue to the mastermind of the whole thing...the return of Norman Osborn.

The Clone Saga had some confusing moments. But I thought it was engrossing then, and especially now, when you can look at it with the perspective of the entire saga, I think it was brillant. Especially the Death of Aunt May, the growing relationship between Peter and Ben Reilly that felt like two brothers, the revelation of Norman Osborn (who should have come back but then stayed dead again) and sheer awesomeness of no less than four NEW major protagonists for Spidey (Traveler, Scrier, Spidercide, Kaine) and the return of one major one (the Jackal, or hell, even Gaunt).

The Clone Saga lost me after Peter slapped MJ after the "revelation" that Pete was the clone.

It wasn't a trivia question, just a gratuitous "No, really, things WERE better then, no matter what you've heard". Basically agreeing with the sentiment Peter expresses there

PP:SM 75 *still* stinks, even now, though...

If 'Boot doesn't mind, I'll repeat some of what I just said to him in a PM about the Clone Saga:

"I agree completely. Not all of it was 100% 'right on', but I'd say almost every single issue from the entire Clone Saga--from Ben's first appearance to his death--had at least some great moments that made each issue worth the purchase.

I remember when it came out I was adamant that Spider-Man was about Peter Parker. And it dawned on me that that concept was partially what the Clone Saga was about (in a way, and among other things). There is just so much that is not just good, but brillant, about the whole thing IMO.

I have to say that there couldn't have been any large plan for each 'part' of the saga to move to the next, like the end of 'part I' being the death of the Jackal, transitioning into Ben finally becoming Spider-Man, all the way to Peter's reintroduction into the series. But it all kind of moves together somewhat effortlessly with almost the perfect amount of time allotted to each segment.

Best of all was the choice of antagonists throughout the entire thing, especially the Jackal (who dies at the perfect time and doesn't come back again), Scrier (who without the revelation would have appeared too over the top, but with it works perfectly), Kaine (whose story is as intriguing as Ben's--though he should not have been brought back) and Gaunt, who I was able to guess early on, but worked well. Even Spidercide was the perfect 'action-oriented villain' for the issues he was in. And though I loathe the use of Norman Osborn from 'the Gathering of the Five' to now, his initial return (that specific storyline at the close of the Saga) was perhaps the only really great way to wrap up the entire series. In an odd way, the last page of the Clone Saga was a night cap for the entire 30+ years before it in that sense, bringing not only the entire thing to a close, but the entire history of the clone saga (which traditionally started with Gwen and Osborne's deaths).

Glad to know you've read the issues and liked them as much as me. My review right here might seem all rosy, but trust me, I know not all of it was perfect. But you're right. There was never a 'No' moment like the way DC has done in recent years (Marvel too)."

PP:SM #75 I believe refers to the last issue (Ben dying via the Goblin). Its not a perfect issue, but its as fitting an end as they could have given. In the months thereafter, they could at least mention Ben in the series and pay him the proper respect. I doubt they'd do that now.

The Clone Saga had an odd balance: (1) on one hand, it was rife with the 'new', in that it had new costumes, scenarios, villains, and other things, many of which are affiliated with the 90's style in which it came out (though I would wager little of the bad). And then (2) it also is a gift to Major Spider-Man fans in that it encompasses storylines from the entire 30+ years up until that time: The Jackal and 'clone' notion itself, the Gwen Clone, Norman Osborn, Robot Master, Aunt May knowing for about 200 issues that Peter is Spider-Man, the involvement of Dr. Octopus, the Black Cat, Daredevil, Vulture and a host of other mainstays characters. It hits on just about every major vibe.

For the Record
(1) Aunt May should never have come back.
(2) Norman Osborn should have returned for that one, final time.
(3) The Alison Mongraine/Baby May subplot could have had story dividends years later if allowed to stay untouched.

I'm a little confused...is the page 'Boot posted above from OMD or from the Clone Saga?

Its from an issue coming (somewhat) directly after the Clone Saga came to a conclusion, showing Peter reminiscing about a day he spent with Ben Reilly and how things were just before.

So what 'Boot is implying is that he feels about the same way as Peter does in that above page, most likely because of the recent 'superboy prime punch to Spidey's universe'. Though I like to think all Spidey fans are depressed already because of JMS's entire run (or really from GotF to now).

I thought JMS started off gangbusters with the Morlun storyline/Aunt May learns Peter's Spider-Man/9-11 tribute, but everything I read afterward was pretty much CRAP--especially what he did with Gwen! Initially JMS's run was supposed to end after those really good issues--I wish they did!

So does that imply that you and 'Boot wish that they'd just kept running with the Ben Reilly Spidey?!?!

My views on the Clone Saga:

Note: I never read the whole thing. I dropped out before the launch of Sensational when Ben was shown to be the "real" Peter. Then, I came back for the conclusion that reinstated Peter and brought back Norman.

What I liked

1) Bringing back the clone in the first place Obviously, the clone was given short shrift in the original story, so I was excited to see him brought back.

2) The sense of "moving on" (to an extent) IIRC, they actually killed off Doc Ock during one arc, and later Aunt May, too. (both later reversed)

3) The sense of history. Miles Warren was a great Spidey villain, so it was good to see him again. Also, the Gwen Stacey clone. (Whatever happened to her?)

What I didn't like/hated

1) Why'd they have to make Ben the "real" Peter? Yeah, I know why Marvel did this: Our Peter was married, MJ was expecting and Pete was running low on dramatic and romantic potential (an issue we still face today), so enter the "real" single Peter and let him take over while the other Peter retires. I think fans might have accepted this change better if they'd let Peter retire without making him the clone!!!

2) Peter slapping pregnant Mary Jane when he found out he was the clone. This was the single-most disgusting thing they put in there. UNFORGIVEABLE! He knocked her across the flipping room, for Chrissakes!!! Why doesn't anyone ever talk about this?!?!

3) Bringing back Norman Osborne. Self-explanatory, I think. Should've never happened!

4) A couple of gnawing quibbles: never explaining (to my remembrance) a) how Ben survived his death in the original clone story & b) how Ben and Pete were erroneous in their supposedly exhausting research (as it was shown)which concluded Peter was the clone!

5) Maximum Cloneage? By this time the whole saga had become a self-parody and it underlined the ridiculousness of the whole thing. There just ended up being too many clones running around, man.

6) Cowardice. Y'know, if you're gonna shake up the Spiderverse this majorly, then there shouldn't be a re-set button. In the end this whole saga didn't change jack-squat! yeah, you could say the same with Knightsend and Death of Superman, but at least these stories were obviously planned for their outcomes and didn't drag on forever and ever. But the Clone Saga was obviously planned one way and then turned on its ear another way.

7) And yeah, Aunt May should've stayed dead and so should've Norman Osborn. Two superior stories absolutley ruined!

So definite overall huge thumbs down for the Clone Saga from me! I'll continue to listen to your guys's opinions, though, especially if you can rebut my problems with it.

I can't speak for Reboot (and indeed, he may want that), but that's not what I want at all.

I think the Clone Saga ended properly, with Peter revealed as the one true 'Peter' (as it should have been) and then a great finale. Am I 100% in love with the return of Norman Osborn? No. But I did think it was highly dramatic. I just wish that was it though--one more time, and then dunzo for good. But I guess it let the cat out of the bag and turned Spidey's villain with the most mystique into a Lex Luther knock-off. Did I want Ben to die? No, again. But I thought it was quite dramatic.

But everyone has to realize something about me, the reader. I've read through all of Spidey's baggage before and never given up on the title. I think I can deal with pretty much anything and except it. For example, whatever is done with Mary Jane I'd be able to accept, including if they kept her as his wife (but I'll be adamant that it was a mistake in the first place--but what's done is done). Probably the one thing I can't accept, the one thing that should be written off as 'never happened' is the JMS/Gwen/Norman Osborn crapfest story from a few years ago. I'd call it the worst Spider-Man story of all time.

So...no, I wouldn't want to go back to Ben Reilly, definatley. If you reread this entire thread Lardy you'll get a sense of how I feel about Spidey. I liked the initial two years after the Clone Saga ended and thought each of the four books had their own voice and some good stories. And it was time for the Clone Saga to be done with completely and for the Spider-Man mythos to move on.

But what I hate is just about everything from John Byrne's 'Gathering of the Five', which served basically as a Reboot (bringing back Aunt May, etc.) and the run thereafter to now. You're right, JMS's run started with a bang and I was into it. But it quickly spiraled into one of the most poorly written runs ever in Spider-Man.

JMS's crimes include: (1) Almost no supporting cast at all, (2) a series of mystical villains after another, (3) sure some great Aunt May scenes, but we saw this already years earlier, (4) issue upon issue with little action, (5) the entire Gwen/Norman children debacle, (6) the Civil War issues, which were equally as awful, including JMS portrayal of Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Peter himself. I pretty hate this run and rank down there with Byrne's.

I loved the Clone Saga but admit right out that it was flawed. Its certainly not in my top five best Spider-Man sagas of all time, but its far superior to everything we've had since. But again, I don't want to go back to it, and I don't want to go back to Ben. I'm a fan of Peter Parker above all.

(1) Well, it was eventually revealed that it wasn't the case. I'm sure at the time they thought Ben would or could be the real Peter, but I knew even then that it would never stick. It goes along with Grant Morrison's theory that the characters themselves are 'living entities'. Of course Ben wouldn't be the 'real Peter'. But I do remember reading letters of outrage at the time. I guess its a matter of opinion.

(6) (I'll skip ahead) - y'see, I disagree with you here. There was some lasting change in the series, but just because they went back to Peter from Ben doesn't imply cowardice. It just means that the entire mythos & story have progressed once again. Ben was Spider-Man for quite a long time. Each transition brought in new writers and artists and editors as well, and in an odd way, you can view it in hindsight as one 'segment' moving to the next. So the return of Peter was yet another progression farther along the road in that sense. But at the end of the day, I thought they were able to wrap things up within the story in a way that made sense, so I'm not concerned with any editorial dictates to 'shake up the Spider-verse'.

(2) the slap - yeah, I agree, that was over the top and bad writing. Taking it down a notch could have played up Peter's desperation better. But there was an implication that he was suddenly going the way of 'Spidercide' when that happened. I'd have to reread the issue.

(3) I've struggled wit this one for awhile as you can see above. I'd prefer he never be brought back at all. But I'm willing to accept his return in the finale because of my above reasons (and in a literary way, it kind of brings things full circle as the Clone Saga truly began the day Norman and Gwen first died). I just wish he hadn't stuck around as a continuing villain. I really think its undermined his role in spider-history from a larger perspective.

(4) They eventually explain how Ben survived, and its implied that Seward Trainer is the one who influenced things to make it look like Ben was the 'real' Peter (you probably didn't read those issues).

(5) Maximum Clonage - c'mon, that's a little funny! I think the fan outrage being what it was and the change in editors, writers, etc. had left this stigma on the entire 'clone saga' as being a never-ending problem. I find it funny that they poked fun at this. Its more to do with 'Maximum Carnage' the video game being so popular then, than the actual 14 part Maximum Carnage story itself from a few years earlier.

(7) agree, but Aunt May coming back was John Byrne's fault years later and not a part of the Clone Saga. There was at least a two year transition period where Aunt May was still dead and Peter & his cast had moved on with their lives.

I feel seeing how the original editorial direction was going that Marvel meant for this to stick--I mean they launched Sensational starring Ben! Tell me that didn't demonstrate intent to make Ben the permanent spidey!

But how much effect has Ben's story had in the long haul? When was the last time he was even mentioned? That whole storyline is treated as a taboo better left forgotten. So therefore its longterm impact has been negated...with the lone exception that Norman is still around. In the end the storyline and Ben Reilly were throwaway concepts judging by its impact on current stories, or lack thereof.

Go ahead...reread it. I'd put it as probably my number one travesty in all of comics...and that's saying something! And no one ever talks about it! Why?!?!

Ya think? No one ever seems to stay dead in comics anymore...and Norman's return really opened Pandora's box. Worse, I haven't read a single Norman story since he returned that was good enough to justify it, unlike, say, the Winter Soldier over in Cap. IMO, the two characters that should have stayed dead above all others: Osborne and Jean Grey.

Nice to know they explained those things. Ben's survival, in particular, should've been explained right away. I'm sure it wasn't a diffiult explanation, but holding off made it seem this secret was vitally important. So what was it?

As for the other explanation, well, it was presented to be true with absolute certainty, so this was just a ret-con to return to the status-quo...I'm sure it wasn't planned all along.

Yeah, it is funny. But it works because the story itself had become a joke anyway.

Was the transition period really that long? I must be mistaken because I thought Byrne actually wrote (or co-wrote) that 4-parter that restored Peter/killed Ben/brought back Osborne. Am I wrong?

I believe Byrne's involvement didn't come until at least two years later or so. There were a *lot* of stories in between. Then again, it was four comics a month, so maybe I'm misjudging it (you know I'm too lazy to check).

I honestly never believed for one second that Ben would stay Spider-Man. I don't think most people did. It just wasn't going to happen. So given the length of time he was, its pretty impressive how long it lasted. I bet you that for ever person at Marvel intending for it to stick there was someone else also at Marvel planning on how Peter could come back.

When viewing it as a whole, many years after the fact, its essentially a story about how Spider-Man is about 'Peter Parker'. Its also about how Peter and Ben are 'Peter Parker' at different times. And honestly, it *had* to end with Peter becoming Spider-Man again, strictly from a literary standpoint IMO. Peter's story within it (not Ben's) is somewhat similar to ASM #16-18 and #50-52. Both those stories have completely different reasons for Peter to give up being Spidey, but hit on the same larger beats.

But I agree completely about one thing...the fact that its hardly mentioned anymore bothers me too. It used to be mentioned all the time but has not been once since Joe Q took over Marvel. I'm certain its an editorial edict. Of course there are other things in Spider-history never referred to either anymore (for many years now), so the clone saga is not alone in that respect.

Actually, in a way its like Roy Thomas' mega-Celestial Saga in Thor that culminated in Thor #300 (I'd wager late 70's-early 80's). It was a great, great run on Thor that lasted year and years (I'd say at least four years!), with a spectular ending that hit on decades old beats and mysteries while taking Thor into a new direction.

Within two years it was never mentioned again. Still...it happened and it was awesome.

EDIT:
Are you a big Spidey fan Lardy? I wasn't kidding...check out past pages of this thread for reviews of tons of Spidey's history! I left off somewhere in the late 80's/early 90's and one day will have to catch up on my reviews. Cut me a little slack though...many of those posts were written when I first came here and sometimes a little repetitive and filled with spelling errors. Things I would never do now

Don't have time to reply properly right now, but I can't let this go, even if it was said in jest

Okay, spell the word blanked out in the following sentences correctly (i.e., the way the OED would spell it. The blanks are s all the same word until mentioned otherwise, it's just because I can't exactly read it out )

After coming out of prison, the now ex-criminal went _________.
The equation of a _________ line is y=mx+c
To go "as the crow flies" is to go in a _________ line from A to B.
"Gimme a whisky. Not "on the rocks", not with a mixer. Just ________".

Oh, and, just for comparison, a different word:

The sailor came afoul on the _______s of Gibraltar.

Betcha can't do it .

I'm not going to even try. When we learned that in school, I was already hitting on the cutie most likely sitting next to me

Des, I've done a lot of lurking on this thread, so I've read pretty much all of it. And, yeah, I consider myself a big Spidey fan, though, ironically, my knowledge isn't as encyclopedic as yours because of gaps in what I've read.

My Spidey roadmap's a little odd. My first exposure to the character was in the old cartoon (summarized here by prof) and the live action TV series. Then, when I transitioned from Harvey Comics (Casper, Richie Rich, etc.), the first superhero comic (though I did pick up the star Wars series) I ever remember picking up was Marvel Tales at the local 7-11, a title which featured Spidey reprints. I din't know they were reprints, though! First issue I remember buying featured Harry Osborne as the Green Goblin. It was that great (Gil Kane?) cover with Peter confronting Harry as the spectres of their alter egos loom above. "Yes, it's true--the Green Goblin lives again!" (or something like that)

So for a while, I read those supposedly all-new issues featuring such threats as Mindworm and the wedding of Doc Ock and Aunt May!

I stuck with Tales for a little while, then drifted over to DC titles and bought some sporadic Superman and Batman titles. I especially liked the team-up books, DC Comics presents and Brave and the Bold. And eventually discovered LSH!

Then, a friend showed me this cool title called the X-Men, and transformed me into a Marvel Zombie! I sold all my DC titles, so I could buy more X-Men!

So as I branched out to other Marvel titles, I decided to check back up on ol' webhead. And wouldncha know it, it was early on in the classic Hobgoblin saga! I was big-time hooked and started buying Amazing, Spectacular and Marvel Team-up!

Trust me, coming aboard Spidey during the Hobgoblin mystery (and soon, the black costume saga) was a great time. To make it even better, Marvel tales started reprinting Spidey stories from the beginning, so I got to catch up on a lot of classic Spidey. And I bought a lot of back issues, encompassing all of Stern's run and a lot of the gaps after where those Conway reprints I read left off. I was particularly interested in the Green Goblin and hunted down the Green Goblin III story.

(to be continued)

You know (to longtime readers of this thread), I've reread a lot of my reviews from a few years ago of roughly Spidey's first 30 years and I'm a little embarrassed by how unorganized they are, but especially but really by how repetitive/grammatically incorrect/etc. are (from an editorial standpoint). One day I may have to edit them

That doesn't mean content-wise mind you. I know I posted those reviews relying solely on memory and taking a very positive standpoint on most of Spidey's history, but I'm kind of glad I did it that way.

I'm currently rereading the entire run (am up to around ASM#186/PPTSS #20--not going 'month for month' and not doing every MTU) and am picking up other things though. Like the change-offs in writers and artists, which is very apparent. As a kid when I reread the entire run time and time again, I would never pay attention to that stuff (and in a way, that made it more enjoyable). But there are some ineresting things you notice from an analysis of the creators.

This post is partially inspired by how great Prof's reviews of the 60s episodes are. I've fallen behind at times and then caught right up and they're really great (thanks Prof!).

I'm rereading the Spidey's for the first time in years. When I was 11, I read the entire thing, month by month, from Amazing Fantasy #15 to the then current issue (roughly the tail end of Larsen's run in ASM, but I read the other titles too). I then quickly reread the entire thing. And again. And again. I basically did it four or five times a year for three years, and then did it again every end of summer, which (as I got older and busier) would take me all the way to Christmas. My goal was to read the first appearance of the Hobgoblin on Christmas Eve. Even when I was too caught up in high school and college life to spare the time, I always read that Hobgoblin issue (ASM #238) every Christmas Eve. I'm currently on-target with time to spare

"This post is partially inspired by how great Prof's reviews of the episodes are. I've fallen behind at times and then caught right up and they're really great (thanks Prof!)."

You're welcome!

See, I DON'T have much good to say about the comics themselves (after John Romita left-- and that's a LONNNNNNNNNNG time ago!!!!!) but I didn't wanna dump on your parade, so, I figured, why not review the Spidey I'm the most enthusiastic about (and the stories I've exeperienced the most-- the comics I've mostly read ONCE apiece, the better ones maybe twice, the tv episodes maybe 30-40 OR MORE times apiece).

Even with the REALLY BAD ones (and obviously there are) it's gotten to the point where I manage to enjoy them IN SPITE of their shortcomings. (Gotta watch the last 2 again...)

Updated schedule, PLUS selections from the 2008 Spidey "bible" (SPOILERS!)

Apparently, JMS wanted his name off OMD, and had to be guilted into letting his name go on the last two issues:

Bodes well really, doesn't it?

Wow. Yeah, bodes real well. JMS and Joe Q always seemed so tight and on the same page (and usually I didn't like that page they were on). The obvious assumption is JMS doesn't agree with what's about to happen to MJ.

Wow. That's pretty interesting stuff.

Oh, Joe Q's tight (16) , all right...

Sex & downloaded porn ETA 2 issues...

Can some one tell me what went on for OMD? I can't seem to find out what happened in the big twist.

Thanks.

I'll stick by Spidey as always, but I'm cringing at what is to become of Spidey's continuity if the rumors I'm hearing are true (and by all accounts, they seem to be)...

I wish I was reading all the Spidey books, so my threat of quitting them because of this cluster!@#$ would hold some weight...

I hope there's enough of a backlash against JQ that he's ousted as EiC. There, I said it. Jemas was canned for less.

Incidentally, I just want to point out who the Spider-editor is now.

SPOILERS

(1) Harry is back. Its about time. Always knew it would happen and have waited patiently. It could have been done a number of ways (I have my own crazy way I would have done it). So I don't like how it was done, but like the outcome.

(2) Web-shooters are back. Also a good thing. Peter's scientific skill is a major part of the comic book and needs to be there, and this is always a way to underline it. Besides, no good stories came out of the organic webs, so its not like there's any reason to miss it. Again, good end result, crappy way of going about it.

(3) obviously MJ and Pete's marriage. I've spoken at length here and in other threads. I didn't like it, but hated to see it handled this way. I'll of course be sticking around.

Overall, a very weird reboot of sorts. Of course the no one knowing he's Spidey thing is gone, and Marvel pretty much sealed the deal on Pete's marriage the minute he came out in Civil War #2. Because Spider-Man, above all other super-heroes, needs his secret identity to continue to exist as an entertaining comic book. Its almost as if the very idea of revealing his identity means the end result must be him regaining it back.

So, a few things I like, but all the result of a storyline that is pretty poor. Joe Q has a major interview as comicbookreserouces, but its hella-long so I'll read it tomorrow

Wow...read a summary of OMD. Appears that Spidey got the kinda treatment the Legion did with what seems effectively a reboot (or a Bobby Ewing shower effect, at least) that may have wiped out the last twenty years of his continuity or altered it significantly and blurrily the way many of DC's icons who weren't completely started over after Crisis had been.

Seems Marvel's taking the first baby step down the path that has dogged DC's continuity constantly post-Crisis. Good luck with that.

And here I was worried they'd either kill MJ off or reveal her as a Skrull. I almost wish they did, frankly, rather than go this route.
Good grief.

Well, I think JMS just summed up what this means for continuity @ Newsarama:

Not that his solution would have been BETTER, since it'd all be the same result, but I think this shows the level of logical thinking that went into this clusterfrak.

Though I hate JMS' run so much that it pleases me to know that he kind of got screwed over here, it amazes me how this could have happened, given the last 20 years of DC continuity being perhaps the greatest example of why you don't do something like this.

But jeepers, 1971? Its more like 1982-ish.

I just read in newsarama JMS's comments and I want to clarify something. I had no idea that it was Joe Q's decision to make Gwen's kids Norman Osborn's children in that dreaded storlyine which helped seal my hate for the current run on Spider-Man. I'm not sure how accurate it is, since Joe Q denies, but if that's the case, I've been misled by Marvel (surprise! stupid me). So I guess I've been unfair to JMS for that, if it was really an editorial mandate for it to be Norman. Then again, JMS did agree to write those stories, so he's not exactly innocent.

If it was Peter & Gwen's kids, as originally planned, would I have been okay with it? Yes. But that's also because Norman aged them many years, so they wouldn't be an ongoing part of the series. But yeah, that would have been true to the spirit of Gwen. Anyone who thinks Pete and Gwen weren't having sex isn't big on history. Both comics history or the 1960's.

Stupid Joe Q. All of him, stupid! Bah! Feh!

www.comicbookresources.com had Quesada's side of the story, Des. Quesada confirms he vetoed JMS wanting ther kids to be Peter's. However, this was before the story was even begun, so JMS could've simply not written the story (if Quesada's telling the truth).

Check out the (five-part) interview there with him--it's pretty fascinating and clarifies some of the OMD controversies. Like, apparently, all of the post-marriage continuity DID happen with the exceptions that Peter and MJ never actually tied the knot, no one remembers Pete's identity being revealed and Harry's return being tied to Mephisto putting in that wrinkle.

Apparently, JMS (hence, his infamous blog denunciation of OMD part 4) wanted to reboot the whole thing with continuity having been altered so that Pete got Harry the help he needed circa Amazing 97 which would've kept Harry and MJ together and altering how things turned out.

But this is a lighter reboot nullifying their marriage, but not all the time they spent together as a couple since that time, if I'm understanding this correctly. And, of course, everyone has "forgotten" Pete's outing during Civil War.

So JMS was never against nullifying the marriage but wanted to bring about a more extensive change to Spidey's history...even to the point where he wanted to undo Gwen's death!

And I hate to admit it, but Quesada's p.o.v. as he explains in that series of articles, is pretty well thought-out.

That doesn't mean I accept it, but I'm more open to it than I was a few days ago. The general rationale for it, that is...not the complete piece of crap OMD itself was from a storytelling and plot device standpoint.

Yeah, I read them after my above post. Joe Q does come off well, and actually, I agree with quite a bit of his logic regarding Pete's marriage, because it mirrors my own on this board for years.

I would definately have not liked JMS's idea to reboot back to 1971, x-ing out tons of my favorite stories which I've reviewed in detail in this thread.

Like you say, I don't really accept the reason for this, but its not as horrible as it at first seemed. In other words, yeah, its dumb, but I'm not outraged enough to quit my favorite super-hero (insert joke most likely by Pov involving 'I can't quite you' ). So yes, OMD = piece of crap. The soft reboot isn't horrendous but it ain't exactly great.

So...

(1) Pete & MJ never married but were together most of the time during the married years.

(2) No one remembers Pete unmasking

(3) Harry is somehow back, more of which will be explained later.

Most likely...

(4) Baby May from the Clone Saga won't be mentioned for the duration of Joe Q's reign as EiC (and probably a while after). But to assume she'll never be mentioned again is naive. It could take 20 years, but just look to Morrison using Batman's son with Talia 25 years later.

(5) The Norman Osborn/Gwen Stacy children...erased? Maybe. Maybe not. I certainly hope so.

Why not just divorce them? I know it seems like it would age Peter, but he's aged since his first story. Write MJ out completely, and in five years, it wouldn't even be mentioned.

Joe Q is right, a single Spidey has more potential. But the story used to make it happen, wasn't good. The undoing of Gwen's kids, bringing Harry back, the webshooters- it sounds like Joe wanted to tell stories and then reset things afterwards, like the Morrison undoing.

Quesada provided the best explanation yet for why they didn't go that route--what kind of message would it send kids if Spider-man, of all heroes, got a divorce from MJ? Maybe not too many kids read 616 Spidey, but you just know it would make some mainstream headlines!

Spidey, especially thanks to the movies, is beloved by many, many youngsters (my sons included), so I can see Quesada's point. A much better one than the "aging" point, anyway.

Okay, so "Deal with Devil" = Good, Morally Relatable; "Divorce" = "Worse than deal with Devil".

And before you say "but the Devil isn't real" - can I point out that a guy WHO BELIEVES THE WORLD IS 6000 YEARS OLD just took the first Republican primary in the US Prez race.

What Lardy may say is that it was MJ who made the deal not Peter. So then, essentially, Marvel has decided it would be better to assault MJ's morals than Peter's, which has a whole new series of implications (none good).

And on the Republicans 'Boot. I'll use that when I see any of my Republican buddies, possibly even tonight.

But Peter said "Do it." He did the deal, and when Thanos' Special Friend does the dealing out, he's going to one of the MU's various hells. If not Mephisto's, then Hellstorm's or Satannish's or Lucifer's.

Aside from the deal with the devil, you have MJ sacrificing her happiness for the happiness of those she loves. Isn't that supposed to be a moral good?

I don't read Spider-man, but exactly how does a single Spidey have more potential? I could see a single Spidey being more identifiable to younger readers than a married Spider-man, but I don't see that there would be more potential story-wise.

From that perspective though - doesn't that make Peter look even worse? Saying "yes" to a deal with the devil to make his life better and her life worse?

What I don't get isn't Ultimate Spidey suppossed to be more baggage free?

Isn't the normal MU heavy on continuity and the Ultimatevrese an alternative for that?

Actually, 'Boot...I wasn't defending or supporting the deal with the devil...just agreeing with Quesada's stated reasoning behind not wanting Pete and MJ to divorce.

My parents didn't divorce, but I know that many young children whose parents divorce are emotionally wrecked by it. Sometimes they see one or both parents as "bad guys" for breaking apart their family. That could be how they would have seen it had Pete and MJ divorced. I believe strongly that no superhero is currently in (or anywhere near) Spidey's league in popularity among children thanks to the movies. I use my own sons and their friends as evidence. So divorce could really shatter their perception of him in a way it wouldn't other less popular characters.

Is a deal with the devil a better solution in that prism. No, not really. But I've yet to see any mainstream press coverage on OMD at all, let alone anything approaching what we saw with Captain America dying and other such coverage. If there had been a divorce, I think it's more likely it would have gotten a lot of exposure and possibly reached kids.

Of course...if the Christian right-wingers, like those who who demonize Harry Potter, get a hold of this and run with it--it could be a whole 'nother ball of wax!

Well, if anything, they got a mystical abortion as part of the deal. They don't have any live kids to emotionally wreck.

And remember that (1) Death of Cap hit on a Slow News Day and (2) Marvel sent out press releases and had a deal with a couple of papers to do pieces on it. Neither happened here, for obvious reasons.

And I'm half-hoping that something like Fox News gets a hold of it...

Apparently not good enough for Joey Q... :rolleyes:

Two Shortpacked! strips on this. The sad/amusing one is here: http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20080107.html

The hilarious-in-pointing-out-the stupidity one though (With side reference to something equally stupid elsewhere):

Where was Mephisto when I was in college? My rap-sheet would be a lot less interesting.

Who actually makes the deal? I thought it was MJ.

Still the deal is so that Aunt May (whom both MJ and Peter love) is brought back to life. So you could say Peter is sacrificing his happiness with MJ for Aunt May.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

From today's beaucoupkevin blog entry--

Joe Q just signed his pink slip.

I think this is a horrible idea. In comics I've never seen a retcon of this magnitude actually fix something. It just makes it worse.

And again...there is Ultimate Spidey.

Just a few things:

http://spideykicksbutt.com/DeepThoughts/OneMoreDay.html
http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4968879&postcount=529
http://forum.newsarama.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=1139 ( p=4949670&postcount=523 p=4968007&postcount=357 )

Until Teh Lobe blows up the Ultiverse.

Ugh. You just reminded me Loeb is in the Ultiverse. I pray he’ll stay away from Ultimate Spidey (or realistically, Bendis’ status at Marvel will let keep Ultimate Spidey sacrosanct). Ultimate Spidey is just about the last aspect of the Ultiverse I’m bothering to pick up anymore…

I really feel with those die-hard Spidie fans who right now must feel robbed like we Legion fans did back in 94 when Zero Hour flushed Legion Lore down the toilet.

I for my part was a regular ASM reader since JMS came on board, and I liked most of his run. One More Day was a terrible exception to that - and I consider the final solution to be absolute nonsense.

To begin with, I never could follow the way of thinking that Peters and MJs marriage was a problem. That's simply rubbish. I thought that it was a nice twist to see Peter to gain that much power out of MJs love.

So there was no dilemma to begin with. Still, they had to retcon it. Perfect junk. The story did not work as well. An adult man with a wonderful marriage would never sacrifice all that for a dying aunt - at least he should not unless he is in some major psychological trauma...

Sacrificing his wife for his "mother figure" probably would Freudian psychiatrists happy, but storywise, it just does not work.

Now I don't know when in Marvel time this Harry Osborn revival is supposed to have happened, and how this hole gibberish is supposed to fit into New Avengers continuity, but I am happy that one decision has been made for me by such a weak storytelling and editing:

No way am I going to keep on reading Spiderman after the One More Day dedacle.

I quit. Which leaves me with just two Marvel books on my monthly pick (X-Factor and New Avengers).

Glad to have some free money now to spend on some more intelligent stuff...

Funny

Newsrama article about Kitson on Spidey

Well I had a feeling it was going to Spidey. Seems like after OMD Marvel is trying to get big names on Spidey. Congrats Barry.

With that said I can't go there. Not a fan of BND, etc. To be fair I wasn't collecting Spidey before. I would read my buddy's trades every once in a while.

Anyways, congrats again Barry. The preview pic looks great.

Well, I'll be picking it up, so this is a treat for me. Can't wait to see your Spidey, Barry! The only other franchise that I'm as big a fan of as the Legion (probably more so to be honest) is Spider-Man!

Combined threads.

No serious Spidey-fan should go without reading this. It's an in-depth analysis of the Clone Saga by someone who sincerely thinks it has some worth, but who is not blind to its faults. The icing on the cake is:

- The DVD-style commentary by Glenn Greenberg, a spectator throughout the proceedings.

- The interviews with other people who were involved.

My thanks to Reboot for bringing this to my attention by posting a link to this in another thread.

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/introduction-and-update.html

Yeah, that's a great link. I have another great Clone Saga link I just have to find (it used to be in my favorites back when I had my laptop, but I haven't taken the time to refind all my Spidey websites).

I just read the latest ASM arc with Zeb Wells and Bachalo, and it was actually pretty good! Definitely something 'different', but all in all a fun Spidey story with limited amounts of angst, which was very welcome. Usually Bachalo's work can be beyond distracting and I've never even heard of Zeb Wells until like two months ago.

All in all, and this is for about 90% of the Brand New Day relaunch, its been pretty fun and pretty well done! The problem of course was getting there with the horror that was 'One More Day' but the thrice-weekly relaunch is probably the best Spidey has been in awhile (probably since JMS first set of stories, though the tone is so different that its hard to really compare).

Still, I have no intentions of converting anyone to remain Spidey-faithful if One More Day caused them to drop Spidey forever. That's Marvel's job. I am enjoying everything so far with some minor complaints (and one major complaint--get Peter the HELL OUT OF AUNT MAY's HOUSE!!!!).

Also, all of this Jonah Jameson subplotting better lead to him being as omni-present as ever in Spidey's stories. He's more essential to Spider-Man than almost any supporting character to any series in comics history (akin to Alfred in Batman I'd argue).

So I’ve yammered on and on over the years about great links to Spider-Man websites I know about, especially lately with the Mary Jane thing, and I’ve at last taken some time to provide one. “Spider-Man kicks Butt” is a website that is highly opinionated and often I don’t agree with the blogger, but sometimes I find him 100% brilliant and dead-on. He also has an intense knowledge of Spider-Man minutiae that rivals my own.

To restate my own opinions on MJ, the Marriage and Brand New Day (As I feel they were misread by some):
(1) I love Mary Jane – I can’t see how any really serious Spider-Man Fan could not. Gwen is my favorite, but I certainly don’t want her brought back—part of what I love about Peter/Gwen and MJ/Peter is the history of their development.

(2) I was not a fan of the Marriage to MJ initially (when I read it of course since it happened when I was like four), and didn’t think it was a good move for the series. But I still loved MJ

(3) I’m going to buy Spider-Man’s comics whether they kept the marriage or did something stupid

(4) I do think “undoing” something is usually a pretty stupid move in comics, even though I agree they backed the series into a corner in the last ten years prior

(5) I believe “One More Day” may be the single worst Spider-Man story ever written, including “Gathering of the Five”, “Maximum Carnage’ and a host of other crap. The one story that could be worse? “Sins Past”, which I’ll never forgive anyone for.

(6) I’m “kind of” enjoying the new series, and if I’m in a good mood can list what I like but if I’m in a bad mood, I can list why I think they have their heads up their asses on certain things. There are a few things that annoy me to no end, far more than the marriage situation (re: Peter as a loser).

[Edit] #7 - The major problem with Mary Jane after a period of time was making her a super-model and celebrity. *That's* where things went wrong in terms of a married Spider-Man.

Warning: these articles are incredibly thorough and long, which I why I personally enjoy them. It takes over a ½ hour to read each one if you really give it the time it deserves. They also appear very fair to me, and I think it’s the single best argument I’ve ever read why Mary Jane is the one for Peter and why the Marriage was so important to keep:

Why did it have to be you, Mary Jane? Part 1

Why did it have to be you, Mary Jane? Part 2

Why did it have to be you, Mary Jane? Conclusion

Another funny take on the OMD fiasco...

Somebody at another board asked, "If Norman Osborn doesn't know who Spider-man is, WHO killed Gwen Stacy?"


Now the SPIDEY fans know how the LEGION fans felt all these years.
(Thank YOU, Mike Carlin-- and Keith Giffen-- and Mark Waid... etc. etc.)


Maybe we can do this like TV GUIDE did it when Bobby Ewing turned up
in the shower. (ALIVE! ALIVE!) They asked several famous writers for
explanations. My favorite was from Stephen King, who said, "Bobby is
still dead. He was brought back as a zombie..." I laughed, because
DARK SHADOWS had actually used that exact plot once... (Maybe more
than once, heh)


As new SPIDER-MAN holds no interest for me whatsoever, I think I'll
just take a stab at it, for some perverse "fun".

Pete felt guilty about lying to Gwen all this time. He finally wanted
to get married, but felt he wanted to be honest with her. So, in his
guise as Spidey, he "kidnapped" her (the same way he'd "kidnapped"
Peter Parker twice already right in front of Gwen-- heh) and swung
around town with her, trying to to convince her "I DIDN'T KILL YOUR
FATHER, DAMMIT!" in between her screaming. He got tired of lugging her
all over, and finally took a breather... on top of the Brooklyn
Bridge. (NOT George Washington Bridge-- somebody PLEASE get Gerry
Conway a guide book to NYC!! Gil Kane had already drawn the art-- you
CAN'T mistake those two bridges for one another unless your memory is
as bad or worse than Stan Lee's.) He figured, up there, she can't get
away, and she'll HAVE to listen. "WHY should I believe you???" she
screamed. "Because..." He took off the mask. ("...I'm the guy who
loves you!" In a state of SHOCK-- she stepped backwards, lost her
footing, and FELL OF THE DAMN BRIDGE! Key up Kane-Romita art, exactly
as before, "SNAP!" Only this time, it was ENTIRELY his fault. Imagine
the GUILT!!! Oh, my-- HORRORS!!!!!


Hey, that can't be anything worse than marvel has actually published
over the last 35 years...


Henry

Remember, "Norman will make the hard cho...ind. Norman will do what it takes."

You know, I was going to comment on this directly, but I think it's more damning without comment on my part:

What an asshole. :rolleyes:

Flowchart explaining the statement (no, I didn't make it, I just agree with that it's what he said):



(Guggenheim also writes Young X-Men)

Peter and Mary Jane were never married, but lived together in sin?! What kind of filth is Marvel trying to peddle to kids these days!

Oh, why can't the regular Spider-Man continuity have the same old-fashioned, wholesome morals shown in Spider-Man Loves* Mary Jane?

*"Loves" in a strictly platonic, let's-have-an-ice-cream-soda-at-the-malt-shoppe way.

[JD]"LAAame..."[/JD]

"JD"?

Dr. John Dorian, from SCRUBS...

I love this scenario!

Hey, don't knock livin' in sin!

<pinches Stu's butt>

These writers just don't learn.

Don't reply to fans on the internet, you only make it worse. Or in the case here, say something extremely stupid and make it much worse.

I don't get why Dan Slott, Mark Waid and so many others feel the need to defend themselves, or in this case, Joe Q's decision. Its basically an unwinnable arguement--they can only hope it goes away over time.

Not my post, but I feel it's worth linking to: http://www.comicboards.com/app/show.php?msg=smb-2008101522004142

"New Ways to Die" kind of reminds me of a late 80's/early 90's plotline. Kind of like Maximum Carnage, actually. Tons and tons of fighting, lots of different characters, but not really all that much happening. JR Jr's art is great though.

I agree about the Spider-Tracer subplot. Other than an off-handed mention here and there, next to nothing has been done (by Spidey; ipso facto, by the writers) to address this.

...I don't, and never have, got this. Seriously, here's a couple of near-direct comparisons from WWH [Okay, the mini-marvels one is kinda silly, but I still prefer it ]:

All subjective I guess. But I really do love his art, especially on Spider-Man, Daredevil and other 'street level' things. I did like it on Thor too.

Can't really explain why, though . Artists with similar styles I really don't like.

I read an interview with him where the person asked him about all the usual critques he gets on his work (generally the same stuff over the last 15 years) and he said "hey I draw and that's how it comes out" or something like that. He's JR Jr., y'know? I'm being partially facetious, I wonder sometimes if I like his art because knowing he's around provides me some level of comfort as to what's happening at Marvel.

But he's probably my favorite artist to do Spider-Man actively working right now. Him and Bagley actually (who took me years to like).

All that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing JR Jr. on something he's never done before. I really liked his Hercules covers.

[EDIT] - first time I ever really took notice of his art when I was about 11 and bought "Punisher War Zone" off the stands with my brother. Chuck Dixon writing, Romita Jr. on art, featuring the Punisher. If you don't like one of those three things, talk about not liking this entire series! But I actually thought it was awesome. I reread around age 18 and still thought so...wonder what I'd think now?

Well, we lost another one of the greats.

From the Hollywood Reporter website.....


Composer Ray Ellis dies at 85
Arranged 'Chances Are,' 'Splish Splash'

By Mike Barnes

Oct 31, 2008, 08:30 PM ET
Composer Ray Ellis, who arranged such classics as "Chances Are" by Johnny Mathis, "Splish Splash" by Bobby Darin and "Standing on the Corner" by the Four Lads, died Monday in Encino of complications from melanoma. He was 85.

During a career that spanned almost 65 years, the Philadelphia native also arranged for acts including Tony Bennett, Doris Day, the Drifters, Connie Francis, Judy Garland and Ray Price.

Ellis, in collaboration with his son Marc, wrote original music for many of the animated series produced by Filmation Studios, along with the original "Spider-Man" cartoon, "The NBC Nightly News" and "The Today Show." Father and son also created music for game shows including "Sale of the Century."

In the late 1940s and early '50s, Ellis played tenor sax in the Gene Krupa Band and the Paul Whiteman Band and performed on live TV with jazz combos on WCAU in Philadelphia.

He was discovered in 1955 by Columbia Records producer Mitch Miller, and under the famed bandleader's guidance, Ellis arranged a string of top 10 records for acts including the Four Lads, Mathis, Bennett, Darin and Chris Connor.

Ellis also recorded instrumental albums under the Ray Ellis and His Orchestra banner for Columbia and RCA Records.

With Jerry Wexler at Atlantic Records, Ellis arranged R&B classics for the Drifters ("Under the Boardwalk"), Brook Benton ("There Goes My Baby"), Ben E. King ("Spanish Harlem") and Etta James ("C.C. Rider"). He did arrangements for Billie Holiday's last album, 1958's "Lady in Satin."

Ellis became A&R director at MGM Records in 1959, creating hits for Connie Francis ("Where the Boys Are"), Frankie Laine and Clyde McPhatter ("Lover's Question"). Later, he worked with such artists as Lena Horne, Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Anthony Newley, Michelle Lee, Liza Minnelli and Maurice Chevalier.

Most recently, Ellis worked on projects with Adam Sandler, Barry Manilow and Bette Midler. During his retirement years, he was involved in fundraising efforts for the Ojai Music Festival.

Among Ellis' survivors is his wife of more than 60 years, Yvette.

Well, another one of the greats gone. It seemed to me about the time the DVD set was coming out that most of the people involved with the show were already gone or dropping like flies. And STILL no original recordings have turned up. (sigh)

When I started learning about Ray Ellis a few years ago, I commented that there seemed to me to be a heirarchy when it came to composers doing film soundtracks. You had those who did feature films. Then you had those who "only" did tv shows. And then you had those who did tv CARTOONS. This does not diminish the people or the work they did in the latter 2 categories. Let me put it this way: I love John Williams' work on LOST IN SPACE more than anything he's done since. Really! (The scores for the 1st 2 STAR WARS movies were wonderful, of course.) A lot of GREAT tv music from the 60's-- and I consider the 60's to be quite possibly the best-EVER era for tv music (seriously, can ANYBODY name ANYTHING since that measure up??) has taken decades to show up on LP, CD, whatever. We're still waiting for SPIDER-MAN.

It was wonderful to read of the various things Ellis was involved in-- "Spanish Harlem" is one of the all-time greats (though even I have to wrack my brain sometimes to remember exactly what it is an "arranger" does). Mitch Miller, a favorite of mine when I was a little kid (no really) turns out to have had a big impact on who worked for Columbia, bieng their R&D man (he also signed Bob Dylan-- ain't that a kick?).

Several months ago, with my help, another fan put together a comp with as many instrumental covers of Ellis' SPIDER-MAN music as we could find in one place. We did this because, apart from it being a cool idea, the original recordings have still not turned up anywhere. I'm playing the SPIDEY COVERS disc right now. I suggest anyone who hasn't gotten a copy yet go do it! They may not be his recordings, but they are his songs.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spidey-jazz/

Catching up on recent Spidey stories:

"New Ways to Die", which I referenced above, was 'okay'. It wasn't terrible and was relatively fun, but it didn't have much substance. My above correlation to Maximum Carnage is a good one I think, for what its worth. Mindless fun with no real point. I love JR Jr's work so I enjoyed it from that angle. Reboot would hate this arc, trust .

One annoying thing is that Harry is obviously involved in some shady stuff and is possibly Menace (my prediction). Ugh. I hope not. Why bring him back if you're going to retread that nonsense. Harry had his Goblin-esque story in #136-137 back in 1975. Then it was redone in the late 1980's, and Harry died, because the only way to top the 1975 version was to take it to that level. It doesn't need to be done again. Or why bring him back at all?

Next is the Flash Thompson single issue. WHOA. That caught me off guard--Marc Guggenheim, who is generally hit or miss with me has delivered what I would consider one of the best stories of 2008. Certainly the best single Spidey story in a long while. A very powerful story that at long last references Flash's nearly 50 year history of growing as a character and showing the heroism in which he admired so much in Spidey. Kitson's art was fantastic. It definitely left me feeling some emotion, much like All-Star Superman #6 and #10.

Next is the Joe Kelly Hammerhead story with Pacheo art. I generally find Pacheo's art impenetrable and it takes away from my overall enjoyment, and its much the same here. But Joe Kelly's writing I actually kind of like (his JLA the one exception), and he does a really great job here. I've always liked Hammerhead but recognize his generally silliness (which was silly even when he first appeared way back in like ASM #116 or something); so amping him up to be more ruthless and scary is a good thing. Kelly also writes a genuinely funny Spidey, as opposed to Dan Slott and Mark Waid, who kind of force it too often (you've got to let it flow, Spidey doesn't need to be annoying or crack jokes 24/7). Kelly also introduces a new supporting character, Norah, who works with Peter at Front Line, and I'm glad to see her.

Some general comments:

- Spider-Tracer subplot still *dragging* on

- I don't really like Lily Hollister all that much. Its for a variety of reasons: (1) the Harry / Lily / Peter possible love triangle reeks of a retread of the Gwen/Harry/Peter and MJ/Harry/Peter stuff of the past and feels too nostalgic. If Peter has a thing for Lily, and she's the first girl since MJ, then we're all inclined to hate her I think (so I wonder if its no accident and they figured we'd hate her anyway). And so far she hasn't shown much characterization other than the cliches and typical shallow 'rich girl with a conscience trying to do some good in the world'.

- The Front Line transition has been great. Now all they need is Gloria and Betty over there with Robbie and Ben Urich. I miss Gloria and don't like Betty working for the DB.

- Need more JJJ.

- One thing JMS did really well was scenes with Aunt May and Peter. One More Day's 2nd biggest crime was perhaps reducing Peter and May's relationship not to what it was pre-JMS, not even to what it was pre-marriage, but to what it was pre-ASM #200. In other words, no one is writing it the right way. Its not only annoying, its distracting. Man, May should never have been brought back after #400. Its had so little positive effect.

Almost here! Roger Stern back on Spidey!

I can't wait! From the interview, it looks like it should be good too.

So, keeping up with my continual reviews, I figure with Brand New Day kind of not that new anymore (a year later already, wow) I'll keep trying to review stories and give an honest review about whether they're good or not. Two posts above I mentioned I thought New Ways to Die was 'meh', while the Flash Thompson issue was really good, and the Joe Kelly Hammerhead two-parter was superb.

Picking up there:

(1) Mark Waid and Marcos Martin offered a two-parter featuring Spidey & a group trapped underground and the Shocker. My thoughts? Wow, what a really great story! I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. A few more specific things:
- Marcos Martin! Where did this guy come from? I buy like a gazillion comics a month and the name didn't ring a bell. He's excellent! Seriously, he might be my favorite Spidey artist since BND started. Great, great stuff, with different characters to draw, cool settings and some really fluid Spider-Man action that reminded me a little of Ditko while also a little of the guys working on Jonah Hex these days whom I LOVE: Darwyn Cooke, Jordi Bernet and others.

- Mark Waid: I love him, and yet sometimes he leaves me stone cold. Its no secret I didn't like the threeboot at all once the final product was delivered, his FF run I hated and his recent Flash run left me super-cold. Yet, the Mark Waid I know has given me some of the best comic book runs I've ever read in my lifetime! Waid's Flash, Ka-Zar, Captan America...hell, *so* many great stories I've just found to be excllent. And his Spidey story? Great! A very solid, excellent read. Good characterization, plotting, action, and the typical Mark Waid beginning - middle - end of character change that have always made his stories so good. Probably my favorite Mark Waid story in the last 2-3 years (I'd count 52 but that's a whole other animal).

- Two-parters: the best thing about the current Spidey set-up is the different story lengths there giving us, with big 6 parters, one-shots, three-parters, etc. Like the Joe Kelly Hammerhead story, a nice solid two-parter is refreshing and nice. I like it. I like the entire set-up.

- Shocker - I love the Shocker, one of my favorite Spidey villains. Not to say he's one of the toughest (he ain't), scariest (he definitely ain't) but also not one of his corniest (hay, the Shocker isn't a total loser, he's pretty groovy in his own right). I also like that his motivation is generally making some paper (that's money to uncool people). Today's hip-hop fans can relate to the Shocker.

So yeah, it was good.

(2) Roger Stern & Lee Week's story. WHOA, WHOA, <span style="font-size: 17px;">WHOA!</span>. Roger, where have you been? Please, please, please write more Spidey stories! What a terrific standalone issue! Great super-hero action with so many elements of what makes Spidey great! Sure, its not the most important comic of the month but its sure one of the best scripted / paced / action-packed deliveries I've seen in awhile. Typical Roger Stern, every story he writes is like he's teaching a class on how to write comics.

And Lee Weeks is great as usual. He should get his own ongoing title. His style seems to be suddenly be back in vogue at Marvel these days after years of it not. The artists Bendis and Brubaker work with seem to evoke bits of Lee Weeks IMO.

(3) Part 1 of the Molten Man / Harry Osborn story. And here's where I can't give every issue of Spider-Man a gold star. Oh Marvel...oh Dan Slott...when you take it to the level of continuity, you better know we fans will use our microscopes and we are a tough bunch to get some generosity out of. I really want to love Dan Slott's Spider-Man work because I loved his She-Hulk and other stuff. But its been hit or miss with me. And here...it feels like a miss thus far. Granted, he can still save it with Part 2, but I'll tell you why.

- the explanation for why Harry's still alive. It makes sense sure, but it lacks any real drama, its overly simple and it feels like "okay, lets just get this out there and over with and move past the issue forever." UH-UH. I know Harry's history like I know my own. I experienced everything that happened to him. Spider-Man fans want answers, so you better be prepared to give them to us. Sure, I like the use of the villain who helped out and it made sense, but couldn't it have been even a little more dramatic and appealing in delivery?

- But the part that irks me is the treatment of Liz Osborn (or is it Allen again?) and young Normie. Now Harry looks like a deadbeat Dad, which if thats the case, why the hell even bring him back? Harry is troubled, we get it, stop beating me over the head with it but do you really need to drag him through the mud *again* to show us? And Liz is a part of Spidey's history for even longer than Harry, so surely she deserves an equal amount of respect. I can only hope she ends up in a good position at the close of the second part.

I like the Molten Man too, so good to see him. Young Normie I find highly annoying but its not like you can just wish him out of the series, right? (oops!)

So 2 out of 3 right now. Good solid Spidey stories like we've been promised but when continuity is a factor its just too difficult to tackle still, and that's only Harry Osborn, not even MJ.

Here's some fun stuff by STEVE DITKO (actually scanned from GIANT-SIZE
SUPER-HEROES #1, but whatta ya gonna do?)...

http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p42.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p43.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p44.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p45.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p46.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p47.jpg

http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p70.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p71.jpg
http://www.samcci.comics.org/spider-man/ASM%20A01%20p72.jpg


Henry

Continuing the review of recent issues of Spider-Man:

#1 - the Second Part of the Molten Man story - like the first part, this was 'okay'. I like the Molten Man, as a classic Spidey villain with some great history, and I love seeing Liz Allen again (even if her name was mispelled within the issue ). But this story felt like a retread--it was like rereading the classic Molten Man visits Harry & Liz in New Jersey story from the early 1980's, except this time they are divorced. I'm sure most readers won't remember that story (from Spectacular #63 to be exact), but I read that issue several times as a kid and its pretty similar. Once again, Dan Slott is showing that while moments Post-OMD have been stellar, some parts are still too much of a retread.

#2 - the Barrack Obama issue - isn't really much to do with Obama after all. That six page story at the end was pretty 'blah', so not much going on there. Much more important to me, as a major Spidey fan, was the Betty Leeds (Brant) story at the beginning by Mark Waid and Barry Kitson. And once more, post-OMD, WOW! What a great story! Terrific, absolutely terrific. Like the Flash Thompson story several months ago, this was an excellent, well done story giving insight to Betty, one of Peter's most imporant supporting cast members after all these years. Mark Waid provides yet another spectacular story (he's on a roll for Spidey stories), while Kitson's art is incredible as usual. This is another contender for best Spidey story thus far in this new era. I love Betty, and seeing all these long time cast members get some much needed screen time without rehashing old plots is the bonus I've been waiting for all along with this new focus on the thrice-monthly ASM with rotating storylines and writers. This story proved once more that the new format can give us what was promised. And as spoilers for anyone reading--no fear, there is no Betty/Peter romance, Waid is much too smart for that. Instead he establishes the great friendship she has with Pete after all these years, and enures readers will remember why they like her rather than hate her if she dares take MJ's place.

#3 "Character Assassination" - by Marc Guggenheim and JR Jr. I've said before I love Romita Jr's art, and this is no exception. Its utterly fantastic here, and those of us who love it will really enjoy it. Those of you who hate it--bah! As for the story itself, I'm actually enjoying it quite a bit! Other than the rather weak "New Ways to Die" this one is actually loaded with great character sequences, a steadily moving plot and some very good revelations. I like Guggenheim's pacing and tension-building here; he's always been hit or miss with me but lately is impressing the hell out of me on Spidey. The Spidey being hurt / having his arm in a sling is a classic Spidey scenario that has appeared every 40+ issues of ASM for about forty years, but he makes it work here.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">In regards to the two big Spoilers:

(1) Lily Hollister as Menace was something I was suspecting these last few issues. While it works plot-wise it also makes sense from an outside perspective in that (a) Harry as Menace is far too obvious and (b) readers naturally would hate Lily in a post-MJ world and so what better way really hammer that home than to make the new 'bombshell' potential love interest slash problem for Pete and Harry be a screw-up super-villain. I've found her annoying thus far; now I actually am interested.

(2) The Spider-Tracer killings are suddenly a much more interesting plot. Several police officers behind it all, possibly killing crooks? Thats where it seems to be leading so far and that's pretty interesting twist. I'm looking forward to further resolution. I do hope Vin Gonzales isn't a part of it though because having him as some fresh blood in Pete's life has been nice, and his character lends well to Spidey stories. I also like Carlie Cooper's role.</span></span>

Essential Amazing Spider-Man Volume 9 came out this week, and it is a must-buy, as it collects what I consider the most underrated of all the Spidey runs -- the Marv Wolfman era, #186-204. Wolfman, of course, introduced the Black Cat, but he did so much more -- he excelled with the supporting cast, tied up loose plot threads, moved the book in new directions, and overall pulled ASM back from the self-parody it had IMO been wallowing in during the Conway and Wein eras.

The standout issue is # 200, Spidey's confrontation with the burglar who killed Uncle Ben. Keith Pollard, the Wolfman era's semi-regular penciller, had been constricted on earlier issues by Jim Shooter's squeeze-in-as-many-panels-as-you-can philosophy. But the double-length of # 200 allowed Pollard to stretch out and really strut his stuff, proving himself every bit the equal of John Romita Senior, and superior to Gil Kane and Ross Andru.

The Marv Wolfman era is only a few issues shorter than the Roger Stern era, and there is no reason why it shouldn't receive just as much praise.

#200 is one of my favorite issues of all time. I reviewed Wolfman's run way back when I first joined LW, but most of posts back then are a little embarrassing for me to read. I need a post editor

Wolfman did several things that really kind of 'picked the book up and restored it as Marvel's flagship'.

- Introduction of the Black Cat, and her earlist stories were some of the best.

- Exit Mary Jane from the series. By this time, MJ really had to leave the series because fans (including me when I read them) couldn't stand her. She still was stuck in the 'taking Gwen's place before we had a chance to mourn her syndrome', and was as selfish as ever--particularly under Len Wein's writing. Her turning down Pete's first marriage proposal was the last nail in the coffin. I think her exit actually saved her character...it led to a 'cooling off period' that allowed Stern to bring her back in a great way.

- Spidey cleared by the police / Spidey graduates college / etc. Marv began or continued a series of things that helped Spidey move on from several longstanding plot elements that definitely had become too 'status quo'. He therefore helped give the title a much needed jumpstart again, even if it wasn't noticable right away. But by the time Roger Stern came on about two years later, he had a lot more to work with without retreading longstanding plot elements. The best one of these is Aunt May finally thinking better of Spider-Man after all those years (two decades really). Marv helped put some closure to that tired old bit and in a way that seemed natural.

- Best Spencer Smythe story of all time. Its also one of the best Jonah/Spidey stories too. I'd say its actually so good that there was no need to ever go back to the Spider-Slayers again (too bad that didn't last).

- Marv also did a few things with the supporting cast that helped move it forward too. He introduced some new characters, like Deb Whitman (who would suffer after his departure). He included some characters he didn't create but helped firmly establish within Spidey's lore, like Sha Shan and Marla Madison. He helped move Harry past all the Goblin craziness so he was just normal again (Len Wein wrote him as very weird). He returned Betty Brant to the series and although she wasn't exactly normal, he at least made her interesting again. He wrote one of the best Joe Robinson's ever, and in fact, I think its Marv who wrote what I consider to be Joe's best scene in the history of the character. I'll have to find the issue so I have the number right.

- The build-up to #200 with issue after issue having something terrible happen to Peter is one of the most dramatic and painful experiences to read as Peter's life crumbles around him. And the ending of #200 in which it all works out is one of the best. Its all a tribute to Marv's writing. When Peter thinks Aunt May is really dead, and Harry and Flash finally learn about, its so subtly and powerfully done. They are both angry at him and then suddenly realize the pain their friend is in...really good stuff.

- And #200. Like I said, one of my favorite issues of all time.

As you know Stealth, my first three pages of posts here are reviews of Spidey's past. But be easy on me...I was rushing through, and it was when I first came to LW...I wasn't as used to writing on the internet at that time. I also focused a lot less on creators, and I'm generally 100% positive about every era of Spidey's history.

I first read Marv's run when I was 12 years old and have read it literally about 25 times since. I used to read all the Spider-Man comics non-stop throughout my pre-teen and early teen years.

Oh yeah, #201-202 is one of the best Punisher stories ever too, also written by Marv!

I'm not a big Spidey reader, but I halfway remember something I saw in a solicit or mentioned in an interview about current day Spidey teaming up with either or both Human Torch and Iceman.

Has that already seen print and I missed it? Or is it still to come? Or did I dream it up?

I've enjoyed moments of Spidey in NEW AVENGERS-- in fact, he's probably the best thing about that title. But he doesn't seem to me to have formed the slightest real connection with any of the other characters.

Not the way he did with Johnny Storm or Bobby Drake.

I'd love a non-team kind of team featuring those three with maybe Crystal taking frequent breaks from cosmic royalty via Lockjaw.

And maybe somebody deadly serious, just for leavening. Not a mutant. Hmmm. Drawing a blank.

Would anyone else enjoy such a title?

Todd, since I'm still reading all things Spider, I'll try to answer your questions. If anyone is wondering why I haven't given updates on latest issues, its because I still haven't gotten to them in my stack of comics yet.

Anyway, Spidey teamed up with the entire FF in a recent storyline where they re-learned his secret identity. It was okay. Not anything to get excited about.

I don't remember anything about a solicited Iceman / Spidey story coming out though.

Spidey and the Torch's rivalry/gradual friendship is one of my all-time favorite in comic books--actually, it probably is my #1 favorite. I've grown up reading that growth of a bond between them my whole life. Its done so well and in several stages: (1) Early/Mid Silver Age where they have a pure rivalry and don't like each other yet The Torch unknowingly inspires Spidey to beat Doc Ock early in his career; (2) Late Silver Age / Tablet Saga where they by now have a mutual respect for one another yet still easily fall back into battling one another (over the Lizard's fate here); and (3) by the Gerry Conway / mid-70's when they had really begun to be friends and the Torch helps him build his spider-mobile, which is ridiculous but retains a certain humorous enjoyability. They're friendship has only gotten better since, including several other eras, notably when the Torch always helped him battle Venom in the 80's.

Iceman and Spidey, on the other hand, have not had nearly that many encounters with one another. The classic is the one in #91-92 after Captain Stacy dies and Spidey is blamed for the murder and Iceman comes to stop him. They've met a few times after that, but not that often. On a similar note, Torch and Iceman have that classic Silver Age team-up in Strange Tales but also haven't had that many team-ups besides their classic Marvel Team-Up issue. I think Iceman fits perfectly into the dynamic, especially because he's not the easiest person to be around either (like Spidey and Johnny).

So to answer your question, I'd buy a Torch / Spidey / Iceman "non-team" team-up book in a heartbeat. Agree about Crystal and as for who to add in: the Black Knight, who would almost automatically not get along with any of them.

Okay, following the above post, I caught up on some Spidey stories (thought I'm probably two weeks out of date already). Some thoughts:

American Son by Joe Kelly and various artists. Joe Kelly remains the strongest of the Spider-Man Web Heads (re: writing team / brain trust) these days and this was a good effort. The story basically serves two purposes: (A) do a story about Harry Osborn actually making a little character progression regarding his father and (B) have Spidey's interaction with Norman Osborn and the Dark Avengers firmly established, hopefully so he can move on. The story does a good job on both, though I can't say any new ground was really covered regarding the long Green Goblin/Spider-Man saga over the decades. All in all, it was pretty solid but nothing to rave about. I've read great Goblin stories and weak ones and this falls somewhere in the middle. What he does succeed at is presenting a Norman Osborn story that doesn't feel another stupid Dark Reign crossover. Kudos for that.

The real twist that shows just how vicious Norman is the revelation about Menace/Lily. Whic was okay but I don't really like the character all that much. I'm predicting here and now she'll be dead within the year. Kelly continues to make Norah an interesting part of Spidey's life and that is welcome.

That leads to Amazing Spider-Man #600; which I'd rank as probably better than #500 was, but nowhere near as good as #400 (Death of Aunt May), #300 (first Venom) or the legendary #200 (Spidey versus the Burglar round 2). The main story involves Aunt May's wedding to Jameson Sr., which is a plot thread I can do without. Running parrallel to that is a Doc Ock story I really didn't like as it really makes Doc Ock look very poorly. I checked the writer and its Dan Slott, who continues to lose value in my eyes as he proves time and time again he's the weakest of the Spidey writers. His dig at Doc Ock lessons the character after Marvel has done several good things to restore him to his greatness (including the excellent second film).

For every good thing Slott does, like the great banter between Jonah and Peter, or the inclusion of all the various cast members, he does a bunch of bad ones like having Johnny Storm at Aunt May's wedding (as ridiculously stupid as the Spider-Mobile but without the charm). Out of the huge main story, I probably only enjoyed about five pages of it.

The ending and surprise return of Mary Jane isn't much of a surprise--this one is something we all saw coming.

The issue jam-packed with back-ups, with essentially everyone pitching in. For the most part...they aren't that memorable, which is a shame. The good:

(1) Marcos Martin's artwork continues to shine but it was with a ridiculous Stan Lee script which I've seen too many times over the last 20 years.

(2) Hilarious "Spidey covers you'll never see"

(3) Mark Waid has a really good back-up with Uncle Ben, again showing how Waid really knows how to use the back-up format to his advantage, something most other modern writers fail to do.

Meanwhile, stories by Guggenheim, Wells, Gale, etc. left a lot to be desired.

I also have ASM Annual, which I haven't read yet and will review since I'm trying to get every comic.

One of the most enjoyable parts of Spidey is the Letters Pages by Steve Wacker and Tom Brennan. Out of all of the editors in comic books right now, I think Wacker is probably the best, or certainly the most fun. From 52 to Spidey, he really is a funny guy who knows how to keep things interesting. Sometimes the letters pages are much better than the stories. In a way, he's kind of the modern age equivalent of Stan Lee in that respect. Kudos to him for that.

I am looking forward to seeing the growing supporting cast continue to have stories and subplots. I just hope they're good ones, like Kelly and Guggenheim do, rather than ridiculous ones like Slott does.

Huh?

http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/273546.html

Clicked on it but haven't read the issue yet and don't want spoilers. Will definitely review it yet.

Thus far, Waid's Spidey stories have been pretty good. I'll admit that link made me curious.

Wow. Thanks for affirming why I dropped Spider-Man a few years ago when they retconned out the marriage.

Huh some more?

http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/310535.html
http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/310351.html
http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=smb-2009111918222399

I’ve caught up with ¾ of the Spider-Man comics since I last reviewed so I’ll give my latest here (which should also address ‘Boot and Nighty’s above comments).

ASM #601 / Return of Mary Jane / Michele Gonzales
Following #600, Mark Waid follows-up on Mary Jane’s return and shows the scene which has caught a lot of heat on the internet in which Peter wakes up after an apparent night of drunken debauchery with Michele and they’ve slept together. Well, that’s a pretty good way to make the detractors of Spider-Man pretty angry. All in all, the issue is actually pretty terrible throughout so I can’t defend it. In fact, while Waid’s first few Spider-Man stories were pretty good, everything he’s done with Spidey from this issue forward has been pretty weak in general. He’s not as bad as Dan Slott but certainly on the lower echelon of Spider-Man writers. The one bonus is he remembered to bring back Gloria Grant, a character I love, though she’s really not doing anything and is only appearing every so often.

To make matters even weirder, Waid strikes again 10 issue later (I’ll get to the actual story later in my review) as he returns to the Michele subplot and reveals Peter wasn't really drunk at all! This actually makes the whole thing even harder to take as he then slept with Michele when he was sober and was stupid enough to convince himself he was drunk, which really only happens in the movies and not in real life. Ugh. The thing is, Michele isn’t that bad a character when written by Joe Kelly or Fred Van Lente and Peter having a roommate he doesn’t get along with but has some weird sort of flirtation with *could* be fun. But Waid just had to go there. And apparently he’s the only one who wanted to. Of course, people might point out the 25 year debate on if Peter slept with a married Betty Brant in the 190’s of ASM, but part of the reason that debate is amusing is because its all subjective and no one can prove anything, and most fans and writers would assume “no, that couldn’t have happened”. Here though, nothing is left to the imagination.

ASM #601 back-up by Bendis / New Avengers
Bendis has a quick back-up that is really a New Avengers story in which Jessica Jones and Peter discuss their old high school days. If you like Jessica Jones, you’ll enjoy it. It doesn’t really have too much effect on Peter himself. The whole idea of Jessica knowing Peter from high school was one I wasn’t exactly thrilled with when I learned of it but its grown on me over time.

ASM #602-605 / Red-Headed Stranger
Following Waid’s awful issue, Fred Van Lente reminds us why his issues are generally the best of the bunch, as he gives a really solid Chameleon story while at the same time reimbursing MJ into Peter’s life but showing her interact with everyone. This is probably the best Chameleon story since DeMatteis in the late 90’s (probably even better than that to be honest) and showcases how Van Lente is firing on all cylinders as of late on everything he writes. He also deals with Harry following American Son, but in a way that seems natural and not as over the top as Dan Slott. This was an all-around great read. One other thing I liked is the reappearance of the ultra-obscure Slyde, and the fact that Van Lente realized he is now dead so had the costume be someone in disguised as Jonah tries to catch Spider-Man.

Jonah as Mayor / Married Aunt May
Jonah as Mayor of New York is working for me. Married Aunt May is definitely not.

ASM #606-607 / Black Cat returns
Joe Kelly comes back on with Mike McKone as the Black Cat returns (naturally) just as MJ is back in his life. Anyone else could have botched this but Kelly proves he really knows how to write awkward romance scenes as these issues showcase the various women in Peter’s life: MJ, Black Cat, Norah Winters (who I love), Michele Gonzalez (who when not written by Waid you love to hate) and even Carlie Cooper who they pulled a bait & switch with and make Harry’s love interest. I thought this was a pretty solid effort and balanced each woman nicely. Kelly obviously has a soft-spot for Winters who he created, while the focus seems to make readers agonize over MJ and Peter not being together. Something else else that didn’t seem to catch the fan’s ire was that at the end, the Black Cat and Spider-Man are basically ‘hooking up’ again in a non-exclusive way. I wonder why that didn’t garner fan outrage? Because of some precedent? For me, I hope that ends pretty quickly. I really like the Black Cat but I hate the idea of her being with Peter.

ASM #608-610 / Who was Ben Reilly?
For some odd reason the clone saga seems to be getting more a following these days so Marvel thought it would be interesting to return to some of the aspects of it. Being generally a fan of the Clone Saga, I’d agree. Unfortunately, this story didn’t really add all that much to it, other than showcasing Kaine again (who once and for all is alive and well) and introducing Raptor, a new villain who is a bit derivative of the traditional Spidey-villains. The Reilly family of cousins are big players here and while they were kind of amusing a few months back, their continued presence in the Spidey titles isn’t really all appealing to me. This was the last Marc Guggenheim story in ASM; he was always right in the middle of how I’d rank the writers, sometimes showing some good stuff and sometimes being more bland. Here falls into the more bland category. And is it just me or do Adi Granov’s covers seem really boring to anyone?

ASM #611 / Deadpool
I never read Joe Kelly’s Deadpool but have always heard all kinds of praise about it. Reading this, I’m not sure it would have been my cup of tea. Only becoming more familiar with Deadpool myself in recent months, I’m still on the fence about the character in general. Here, he’s amusing at times but annoying at others. While Kelly has been knocking it out of the park on ASM, this is probably his weakest issue to date. Artist Eric Canete seems to fit right in with Deadpool rather than Spidey.

ASM #612-614 / Power to the People
Mark Waid returns for a three issue Electro story that kicks off “the Gauntlet”. Electro is one of my favorites and I think he’s been woefully misused for about 25 years, so I have high hopes this is rectified. And with this story, aside from the aforementioned awful Michele Gonzalez sequences, Waid actually provides a pretty solid Electro story. Its very topical given the current economic climate (which means 5 years from now it will feel dated) but uses Electro very well. The Mad Thinker also appears briefly in a cool way. The major problem with the issue is the destruction of Dexter Bennett and the “DB”. This is something I mind, actually, since I find Bennett annoying as all hell and the DB plot to be getting pretty damn old and stale at this point—if anything, this was way overdue. But it’s the way in which its done that is another Waid misstep. It looks like because of Spidey and Elecro’s fight, Bennett is basically crippled. And throughout it, Spidey seems oblivious or unaware. In the old days, he’d at least try to help Bennett and they’d make sure he was heroic but here it almost is written in a way that makes Peter seem a little negligent. I don’t like that at all—the entire final issue of this arc felt all wrong writing wise. Lately Waid has been doing a great job on his own Boom! Comic books but here at ASM, he just can’t seem to get it right.

Being Thrice-Monthly
Coming out three times a month is something I’m enjoying quite a bit being a huge Spider-Man fan but it does come with one problem: what you get is a mixed bag. One week you might get a really awesome Fred Van Lente or Joe Kelly story while the next you might get something awful by Dan Slott or a Mark Waid ‘head-scratcher’. I wish Slott and Waid would quietly leave the ‘Web-Heads’ and Van Lente, Kelly, Wells and Stern were joined by one or two other great writers. The art, on the other hand, is almost consistently excellent. They really do get some top talent producing stories here. Marcos Martin has emerged as my new favorite, though Barry Kitson’s art has been spectacular here too. I think all around Editor Steve Wacker and Assistant Editor Tom Brennan do a great job.

Letters Page
Every issue has one and they rock. Better than visiting a Spidey message board.

Web of Spider-Man
In addition to the thrice-monthly ASM, there is now the monthly Web of Spider-Man comic, which features three stories in an anthology format. Usually it will focus on a character that is important to ASM that month, a monthly installment of Spider-Girl and a back-up on the supporting characters. I like that Web exists and hope they can use it to their advantage to fit in some great stories, particularly with the supporting cast. I hope Betty, Gloria, Flash and others (besides MJ and Harry) are featured eventually.

Thus far the lead stories have been a Kaine story (okay), an Electro story by Van Lente and Barry Kitson which was excellent and a Rhino story by Van Lente which was also excellent. Specifically, the Rhino story did a great job at reintroducing the character, reaffirming he’s a menace not to be trifled with rather than the joke Marvel let him become but also not take anything away from previously established characterization.

The Spider-Girl stories I only breezed through because I never followed the series. I hope fans of that series are happy its continued in some form.

The back-ups have also been a mixed bag thus far. The Jonah Jameson one by Tom Peyer in #2 was pretty good, as I love Jonah and when they get him right its always a solid story. The Aunt May / Jameson Sr. story in #3 wasn’t my cup of tea because I don’t like that storyline.

Subplots of what’s to come
The subplots leading up to the Gauntlet, with Kraven’s family seems interesting thus far and I’m curious as to how Arana and Madame Web play into it. As for the Mary Jane marriage stuff they’ve hinted at in the recent ‘puzzle piece’ press releases, all I can say is Marvel better be careful. If they are really going down that route they better not screw it up even worse, which they could very well do. People *still* have a lot of anger at Marvel for eliminating the marriage (as Legion World can attest)…I can easily see Marvel trying to resolve this once and for all and then not reinstating the marriage, which would only anger those people even more. But I’ll curiously watch as it all unfolds.

Man. Am I glad that I dropped Spidey a long time ago. They have totally screwed this guy up.

How is showing your main character get drunk and sleep with someone a good idea on any level. Especially for your FLAGSHIP character.

As a kid I remember reading Spidey and seeing flirtations and the like...but this is insane. This is not the Peter Parker I grew up with.

What I forgot to mention is there is this weird sequence in #601 where Waid hints that maybe Peter didn't sleep with Michele and it was actually MJ he spent the night with. I wonder if the internet caught that, and mentioned it?

Its really hard to understand what the hell it means and Waid didn't return to it. Really weird.

But don't be surprised if 3 months from now Waid reveals Peter really slept with MJ and Michele has just been lying to him all along that they slept together. Waid will point to this scene as his evidence (which is a completely non-sensical scene BTW). He's given himself an easy out, though if he goes that route its just more bad writing.

Caught up with the current Sandman story by Fred Van Lente and Javier Pulido. In short, its pretty damn excellent and reminds me again that Van Lente is *the* man for Spider-Man stories these days. Add in Javier Pulido's art and you've got a real winner, as Pulido is just a fantastic artist and I hope he sticks around on Spidey for awhile. His work really suits Spidey's stories, as its very clear yet action-oriented. Here he shines by showing Spidey web-slinging and in awkward positions that makes potentially forgetable panels pretty exciting.

Pulido also draws Spidey with a scarf, wool hat and boots--and its awesome. It definitely made me smile.

Van Lente also shows the post-DB world of Spidey and does a great job; Jonah and Robbie share a strong moment and then Betty Brant gets to move to the next stage of her career in a welcome way. She also helps Spider-Man which is an odd turn of events; I wouldn't mind if this continued going forward (though they would have to address the longtime problems Betty has had with Spider-Man). Also got to see Gloria in action working with Pete which was great.

The Sandman story itself is very strong, and is already one of the best Sandman stories I've read in years. Like many other great Marvel villains, there have been a lot of bad Sandman stories. Luckily, this is a solid, strong outing and Van Lente reminds me a bit of Roger Stern when Stern came in and gave the Vulture 2-3 great stories after decades of crappy ones.

If you're in desperate need of a great Spider-Man story and are concerned of when to get it, I'd say this is you best bet.

I thought you might get a kick out of this. A friend asked me about ASM #143... did MJ say "Not" or "Hot"? My answer (bleeped-out profanity included) follows... (what memories, what memories)


Oh, I remember. Jameson got involved in another of his A**H*** schemes, it fell apart, he panicked, and fled the country! S***head. Next thing, they get the word, JJJ has been kidnapped. Serves the SONOFAB**** right. I'd have left him to rot, the B******. (Can you tell what I think of this guy yet?)

So Pete gets the dirty job-- again-- and has to deliver the ransom money in person. MJ sees him off at the airport. He asks the question. Not that one, the other one. She answers. "I call you Tiger cause you're NOT." They kiss. He leaves. She turns, walks away, and says... "...wow..."

It took almost 2 years, but the art by Andru, Giacoia & Hunt finally started to get the main characters "on model", which it had not been since Giacoia got on the book. Romita's inks were so good, I didn't even realize WONDER WOMAN's ex had taken over the pencils. (WW!! WW! All the world is waiting for you! Oh wait, that's the tv show...)

I'd forgotten I'd seen Jim Mooney ink Andru on MARVEL TEAM-UP #2. He inked Andru's 2nd issue of ASM. Not bad, but I suddenly noticed, hey, they changed pencillers. Then Giacoia got on there... and the art started to SUCK. BAD.

Romita, it turns out, had been PLOTTING THE BOOK. Not Lee, and later, NOT Conway. Romita. But my guess is, when Romita stopped inking, he stopped plotting. Because that's the exact point the writing started to SUCK. BAD. The fake Vulture. MJ miserable. The fake Green Goblin (Harry). Now, I will admit... the fake Mysterio story was kinda fun. I still get a kick out of the cover for part 2, when he lifts his "head" up and Spidey's web shoots right between it and his shoulders, and Spidey says, "NOBODY can do-- THAT!" Romita did the cover, of course. The last page of that story, in fact, was the 1st time JJJ looked "right" since Andru & Giacoiua took over. I wonder, was it realy Giacoia, or was his assistant Dave Hunt the one getting the faces right? (Or was Romita coming back to fix the faces, uncredited as usual?)

Legend has it fans wanted to lynch Conway for killing Gwen. NO! It was all Romita's idea!!!!! He claims he wanted to do a "tribute" to STEVE CANYON, but I suspect that once Stan was out of the way, he finally had his chance to ditch the blonde and hook Pete up with the girl who ALWAYS liked him no matter what, MJ. Criminal that Romita appears to have stopped plotting the book right after the double-murders of Gwen and Norman (not Bates). You pull a major stunt like that, you should have the decency to stick around afterwards. No doubt this inspired Jim Shooter, who later on, would pull awful, horrible stunts like this all the time-- and never once, not ever, ever once, did he stick around to clean up his own mess. (What a B******.)

So, almost 2 years go by, and things finally-- FINALLY-- start to look up for Pete & MJ. And the next issue... it all starts to go to hell again. AUGH! Soap-operas... who needs 'em?

Conway had Gwen's death forced on him. Conway later had the CLONE OF GWEN STACY forced on him too. Roy says Gerry left Marvel because they refused to give him the kind of contract Roy had. But "legend" long had it, he left because he got tired of people F****** over his work on Spider-Man, and him having to take the blame for it from fans.

Hey-- maybe it's a little of both?

When I first read the death of Gwen Stacy when I was 12, I was devastated--I really felt like *I* loved Gwen, because I related to Peter so much--I would reread Spider-Man comics from 1962-1992 constantly (all titles) over and over again. So I naturally had an interest in who made decisions for Gwen to ultimately die and everything I've ever read follows exactly what you say, that it was really Romita (and that Romita always preferred MJ to Gwen). Now, like I said, my 12 year old self will always make me prefer Gwen to MJ, but that's not fair to MJ; after all, Gwen's history with Peter was almost sacrosanct (until recently ) but MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years!

You're comment on the Gwen Clone is fascinating though--I always assumed it was Conway who came up with the idea and never heard otherwise. I do know I've always loved the execution of the Jackal and his ultimate reveal as Professor Warren. The mystery of the Jackal makes this era a personal favorite of mine actually. Of course, after Professor Warren was revealed to be a super-villain, Marvel editorial really needed to make sure no one else Peter happened to know was somehow a super-villain; it was getting to be a little ridiculous.

Like I said, I have a fondness for this era. But I do recognize several stories were not up to snuff. Fake Vulture. Mindworm. Grizzly. Still, I love the subplots so much at this point that I enjoy rereading them a ton. And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time.

I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita. In recent years I've come to grow fond of it, and appreciate his own unique style. I've never taken the time to really compare the inkers though...something to look forward to when I reread for the 9,000th time!

Jameson's quick exit had to do with another Spider Slayer scheme I think or the Scorpion busting out of prison or something. Naturally, the Cyclone got involved. There is no doubt by the end of this story, Joe Robertson must have realized Pete was Spider-Man. It had been hinted at for decades and I've always narrowed it down to here, in France, where Robbie truly realizes it (though he had suspicions prior).

The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment. Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again; Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her.

"MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years"

Uh-huh. I first saw both Gwen & MJ in ASM #55, but neither made a dent on me. Later, I saw Gwen in a reprint of ASM #31, where she was awful-- a spoiled, selfish thing who was interested in Peter, but only on her own terms. I cannot imagine Ditko ever turning her into the nice girl she eventually became.

I then saw MJ in "Rhino on the Rampage", where she & Pete were having dinner with their aunts, they went into the lviing room and she started dancing, he heard the news, and SHE sugggested getting on his bike and going there to see what was going on in person. What a perfect girl for Peter!

I think Stan just had to "ruin" it with having Pete repeatedly thinking down thoughts about her, how it "bothered" him that she was "up" all the time (oh, would he have preferred somebody cranky and irritable?). The way I see it, Stan married a blonde. He wanted Pete to be with the blonde. Period. I never knew until quite recently that Romita wasn't co-plotting the book, he was PLOTTING it (with help from his wife & kids). But Stan wouldn't just "make" him plot the book-- or should I say, "let" him do it. Ever the "EDITOR!!", Stan always insisted on sticking in his own ideas, changing Romita's ideas, and getting in the last word. (My current boss is like that. In the last 2 months, he's repeatedly gotten in the way of me being able to do what he claims he wants-- be more "productive" on the job. He keeps letting his need to be "in control" get in the way.)

Supposedly, Stan okayed the death of Gwen story... then claimed he was out of town and knew nothing about it, to avoid blame. Then, not realzing the consequences of everyone's actions, apparently asked, "Well, can't you BRING HER BACK?" And this led to the Gwen clone story. (It also explains, to a lesser degree, why the early Lee-Romita SPIDER-MAN newspaper strip feratured a blonde in it... what was her name, Carol?)


"And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time."

You forgot to mention the atomic bomb blast!


"I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita."

I think when Romita was on inks, I liked Andru-Romita lots more than Kane-Romita. But Romita was always too busy doing something else. There was ASM #125, 151... any other issues?


Jameson, if memory serves, was the one who HIRED the fake Mysterio. So when he was arrested (FOR WHAT, I find myself wondering?), he threatened to name his employer.

Does Joe know Pete is Spidey these days? I'm so completely out of the loop (and happy to be that way). Re-reading my comics up to 1973 (I hope to get back to them eventually), it's pretty clear George Stacy & Joe Robertson were slowly putting two and two together. Then Stacy got killed, and the whole tone of the series went into a tailspin it may never have really recovered from to this day.


"The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment."

YYYYYES!!!!! Exactly how I feel.

I would actually say that the version of MJ portrayed by Kirsten Dunst in the 3 films was based more on Gerry Conway's run than on the original Lee-Romita version. Not a completely bad thing, but Dunst in the film DICK was maybe more spot-on to the "real" MJ (heehee). (Okay, maybe that's going too far.)


"Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again"

It started right with Len's 2nd issue! His 1st was so good-- all those sub-plots, the cool Romita inks, the return of The Shocker with his outragoues "calling card" (as the cartoon Spidey once said, "Talk about a king-sized EGO!"). But Pete splits due to a crime, and the next day, MJ is acting like any "typical B**** girlfriend"-- when she was ALWAYS, to my eyes, anything but! WTF?


One thing I utterly despise, as part of my general dismissal of ALL of Tom DeFalco's writing in general (I once ranked him the WORST writer to ever work for Marvel-- though that was a long tme ago) was his absurd and out-of-left-field revelation that MJ "always" knew Pete was Spidey. B***S***!!! MJ was not "the girl who lived next door when I was growing up" in Pete's life, that was SUE STORM in REED RICHARDS' life!!! Didn't DeFalco even read the comics he was overseeing? (Oh wait, that was before he became EIC.) And of course, this got into the movies, so most people will always think it was that way... except for the part about her knowing his secret from the start.


"Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her."

I admired Marv for trying to "move on" with some things when he took over, but I can NEVER forgive him for "finishing the job" his buddy Len started on MJ by having her walk out on Pete's life that way. Roger Stern, despite becoming my favorite Marvel writer in the mid-80's, also seemed to have some kind of bizarre thing going on in his attitude toward long-running romantic relationships. Think about this: Stern broke up Hank & Jan ("finishing" what Jim Shooter had started for no damn reason at all), he broke up Stephen & Clea (WHERE did that come from???), and he said openly in an interview that "You don't get back together with the EX", referring to Pete & MJ. He brought MJ back into the series, but had NO intention of her & Pete ever becoming a couple again. WTF?

My comics-shop guy Fred, when I told him this, joked, "Maybe he's gay?"


You really made me glad I posted that fun rant the other day! It amazes me that some of these stories stand out in my mind so clearly after decades. I do have very strong feelings about some of these things, so it's nice to be able to discuss them in a fun way, even if I often think the comics themselves weren't nearly as good as they could or should have been.

Though Romita’s heavy involvement in ASM shows incredibly well, its amazing to see just how vital he was in the direction of the series, to the point where he was moreso than Stan, as you say. I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit. JJJ is my favorite all-time supporting character in that he adds a layer to Spider-Man that no other series has: an adversary that is not a villain. By the time Gil Kane had had come on, Jonah was doing things like supporting civil rights and standing up against citywide video surveillance—things Stan obviously would have him doing but I wonder if that was JR as well?

The MJ Rhino story is the 3-parter where she is introduced and its one of my favorites of all time. The Ditko run is what I consider the best of Spidey, but sometimes when I reread, I start at the very best Spider-Man story of them all (#31-33, also perhaps the greatest comic book storyline of all time IMO), and then go from there. The reason is because the transition from Ditko to Romita changes Spidey’s world so nicely—when I was a kid, it made me desperately want to go to college and move out and have a roommate, have girlfriends, go to parties and go get coffee with my friends. Gwen softens up and becomes Pete’s love interest, MJ is introduced, Harry and Pete become friends, etc. Pete even has a great sequence with Betty Brant in those issues where the two kind of reach some closure. Robbie is introduced (a huge fave of mine), Captain Stacy right after (or before?), John Jameson is a player and Fred Foswell’s story reaches a tragic and heroic end. Plus Need Leeds, Professor Warren and of course, Flash—the series was just firing on all cylinders!

Getting back to my point, the MJ introduction was just wild. I love when Spidey rescues her and she says: “Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?” or something. How could you not want MJ to be around you? One of the things I liked later was that after two dozen issues of an icy relationship between Gwen and MJ, the two become close friends.

I believe its back to how it was in the late 60’s-early 90’s, in which we the readers think Joe knows but no one really knows for sure if he does. At least, I hope it is. I love that particular long running subplot. It begins with John Jameson and Captain Stacy right around the time John Jameson was reintroduced for a third time and almost killed by Doc Ock (and then saved by Spidey again), and the two “exchange some thoughts on Spider-Man”. At this time, Stan & Romita were introducing Joe Robertson into the series and so when John Jameson exited to handle ‘government business’, Robbie kind of stepped right into that subplot so Capt. Stacy and Robbie were the ones discussing it. Considering Capt. Stacy knew Pete was Spidey when he died, one can logically presume Robbie did too—or if not by #90 when Captain Stacy died, certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above (with a number of odd coincidences in the 50 issues in between for Spidey and Pete).

Speaking of Captain Stacy, he was also a huge favorite of mine. A really terrific character who was akin to “the conscious of the series” as I heard him described a few years ago. Sometimes when I review other series, I look for characters who kind of fill that role. I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did.

Captain Stacy, Norman Osborn and Jonah represented the ‘upper crust’ NYC elite in the series and each one was in different areas of the moral spectrum. Captain Stacy was the morally good one and Jonah the one who only cared about money and fame. Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy.

I read a great article a few years back on www.spideykicksbutt.com, which is a great website with some heavy opinions; they are very strong but they are heavily backed up by continuity so they’re a great read. Anyway, the author said he thought Marv having her leave the series at that time was a great move in that it was a great ‘cooling off period’ for MJ and the readers. I concur because of (A) the damage done by Len Wein, (B) that damage implied that Peter had never really had a chance to grieve for Gwen even though as you and I both agree, that is exactly what Gerry Conway had him do and (C) all those Marvel Team-Up appearances of MJ kind of made her actually seem more of a flatter character than she was because the series was in its nature limiting in any character development for her there. In the long run, this kind of worked. Of course, having her turn down Pete’s proposal was not really the best way to go about it.

I also liked Kirsten Dunst’s job as MJ in the films and agree, its totally the Conway MJ going on there. The films capture the “transtionary MJ’ very well, from her less mature self to a person of some real substance and depth.

Interesting notion on Roger Stern, I’ve never noticed it before. He does have a tendency to move characters beyond the classic pairings. I can see how that fits into what he’s always trying to do: respect the past and acknowledge it but keep things moving forward.

Also—yeah, that Shocker story by Len was a great start in the first issue! I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either.

I was glad to read it! As you know, I can talk about Spider-Man all day long, especially the specifics of various eras, characters and storylines. I really love hearing your opinions on various comic book stories—particularly Spider-Man and the Silver Age Marvels. I have a pretty positive opinion of even the lesser quality eras of Spider-Man’s history (the last 10 years being perhaps the exception to that), but I take a lot of joy in putting a critical eye to some of the bungles of the eras that I love. You provide a lot of things that make me notice things I never have after dozens of rereads: inkers and behind the scenes editorial decisions chief among them!

Y'know, this was the first time I've ever heard that Robbie apparently knows that Peter's Spidey! Sadly, I haven't read many of the Spidey stories from the eras in which Captain Stacy was alive and when Robbie was introduced. But I don't ever remember reading an issue of Spidey and wondering if Robbie knew who Spidey is. Seems like those stories Conway wrote later on with Robbie and Tombstone would've been a natural place for that to pop up again, but I don't ever remember anything, subtly or not, hinting that Robbie knew about Peter.

Huh!

Reading that era, I always got the impression that Robbie had a pretty good idea that Peter was Spidey...but never looked for that damning bit of evidence so he would not feel even remotely obligated to do anything with the information.

I'm working on a tedious & time-consuming "restoration" job for the SA Marvel site, so I appreciate taking a break here...


"I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit."

I dunno... MY favorite version of JJJ is the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons, where he is treatred as "comic relief". When I re-read the 60's run recently, I felt ASM #1 may have been the WORST issue in the series-- and JJJ was nothing less than a MONSTER! There was NO CALL for him to have done what he did in that first issue regarding Spider-Man. Things got better issue by issue, though. As Ditko's run went on, we did see some depth to Jameson, but he worked best when someone-- Spidey or other-- made a total jackass of him (well, it was mostly JJJ doing it to himself).

By comparison, he seemed to me to be a flatter, 1-dimensional character during the Romita run. His hatred of Spidey became downright pathological. He would have outbursts against Spidey even if Spidey was in the middle of saving someone's life-- including his! The worst instance, for me, was when Spidey appeared on a talk show, and JJJ set it up with ELECTRO (who started his career ROBBING Jameson's safe, for God's sake!!!), and it caused a riot, loads of property damage, and a lot of people could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. To me, it made no sense that JJJ was able to just walk away from that. CRIMINAL charges should have been pressed, a scandal should have ensued, the rep of his newspaper tarnished. THAT would have made an interesting story... but it never happened!

It does seem that it was during Kane's run that, while Pete's life went TO HELL, that somehow, Jameson started standing up for things, like when he defended Joe against a bigot. It's a strange contraditiction in terms, when I think about it. (Then again, maybe after the Electro incident he started seeing a shrink? He sure as hell needed one! Dangerous criminal lunatic!!)

Pencillers tended to at least co-plot stories back then, and I've heard that apparently Kane was contributing, though not as much as Romita did for Stan. (Stan's contributions during Romita's run seem to consist of suggesting villains, telling John to hook Pete up with Gwen, make Gwen prettier, make MJ's hair uglier, etc.)


When Romita took over from Ditko, it seems to me that Gwen, Harry & Flash all "softened" a bit too much, too fast. it didn't feel natural. If you started reading around the Rhino story, you wouldn't notice, but readling all the issues in sequence, it felt like something was missing.

I loved the dynamic in "IN THE HANDS OF THE HUNTER", when they had the party for Flash's going into the army. Gwen & MJ were almost like Veronica & Betty, only not as polite. The harsher, more self-centered Gwen seemed a better match for Harry, who also came from a well-to-do family.

If I recall rightly, Stacy was introduced in the issues when Spidey had AMNESIA, and Gwen was startting to show she really cared about Pete, who was missing.


“Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?”

One of my favorite bits is in the 2nd Kingpin story, with the nightclub (Gloom Room A Go Go), where MJ walks in during a fight, some goon tries to use her as a shield, Spidey clobbers the guy, swings off with her holding on tight. After he puts her down and takes off, she asks, "Do you have any brothers?" (I asked a girl I really liked just a few months ago, "Got any friends or sisters like you?" --she was married.)


"I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did."

They REALLY never should have killed him. After Uncle Ben, and ASM #31-33, that should have been enough of that sort of thing.


"certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above"

Never mind the Cyclone story... remember the Gil Kane story where Pete went to London to take pics (and see Gwen)? After he went into action as Spidey, he realized he couldn't see Gwen, because she might put two and two together. But, WHAT ABOUT JOE? Pete gave Joe pics OF Spidey! Didn't it even occur to him that a newspaper man might put the same two and two together? GEEZ!


"Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy."

It's only the last couple years, after re-reading these things over again, that I realized something. When Stan & Johnny told the Green Goblin's origin, they were doing a RETREAD of Doc ock's origin! Noble scientist, lab accident, guy goes insane, becomes a criminal... The thing is, I never got that vibe at all from Ditko's portrayal of the Goblin. But on the other hand, Stan seemed to completely forget Ock's origin. Once he went mad, he became a power-mad criminal bent on building a criminal gang, and he also became (in my view) the MOST DANGEROUS of all of Spidey's enemies. Something else else tells me Stan forgot Ock's origin when he told the Goblin's... and he spent an awful lot of time afterwards trying to build up the Goblin as so extrememly dangerous-- and yet, we were supposed to sympathize with him. Sheesh.

It may have been the 2nd movie that also pointed this up for me. Ock WAS a very sympathetic character before his accident (as opposed to the comic, where he was a 1-dimensional cipher with no personality-- that accident actually gave him a personality he never had before!). In the film, although they played Ock up as extrememly dangerous, you still felt sympathy for him at the end.

By comparison, I never WANTED to feel sympathy for Osborn in the comics. I may be getting confused here, but it seems to me Osborn was somewhat shady to begin with... the accident just pushed him to lengths he might not otherwise. It was the AMNESIA that "cured" him, made him a nicer person than he ever had been, even before he became a super-villain. And yet, Stan seemed to forget even this, and in sequels kept trying to paint Osborn as deserving sympathy. I can't help but wish he'd died the way he did in the film... having tried, but FAILED to kill Pete's girlfriend. After such a build-up, for years and years, they should have had Pete & Gwen get married. then MJ would have had something to be heartbroken about. (I could see MJ dumping Harry after a marriage proposal.. after all, he was just her "rebound" guy. Sad for him, but true.)


"I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either."

The 2nd half of that 2-parter was such a let-down! MJ's personality changed between issues, Romita didn't ink, and after "writing his name in lights", I don't even remember what The Shocker did next, but he got beaten way too fast.

To be fair to you then Lardy, the notion that Robbie knew Peter was Spidey was something that was ongoing and prominent at the close of the Silver Age and in the early-mid 1970’s; it would pop-up again throughout Spidey history but a lot of the time IMO, it was very implied and kind of relied on the idea that the reader might already have that suspicion in their head. In other words, there is a case to be made that Joe does not know Peter is Spidey, and anyone who did not read those Silver & Bronze Age issues might automatically think so.

During the end of the Silver Age, as I said above, there was a long-running subplot where Robbie and Captain Stacy would have talks about Spidey, comparing notes. It was certainly implied they were close to guessing who Spidey was and we soon learned Captain Stacy indeed knew. Prof points out an obvious (and pretty groovy) story in which Peter and Spidey are both in London looking for Gwen and Robbie knows—he reminded me that in that issue and the following issue Peter makes some thoughts where he basically says “Oh well, if Robbie didn’t know before, he certainly has some suspicions!”. The aforementioned Paris/Cyclone story further confirms this, though Conway had peppered his run with some exchanges where Jonah exclaims he can’t believe Parker can get pics of Spidey no one else can and Robbie makes a comment that is like a casual wink to the reader that he has other suspicions.

The next major milestone for Robbie IMO was what I consider the greatest scene in the character’s history, which occurred sometime during Len Wein’s run (although there is a chance it was at the beginning of Marv’s—I can never remember which issue). In this scene, a down and out Spidey comes to Joe for help and hides out in his car. After scaring Joe, Joe yells at him for doing that and actually puts Spidey in his place. He then gives him some great advice and even tells him a story about how he and his wife lost their second son when the boy was a baby. It’s a moving, touching scene and it reinvigorates Peter. This might actually occur in the Bart Hamilton / Green Goblin III story at the climax of Len’s run. The scene basically firmly establishes Robbie as the heir of Captain Stacy as conscience of the series and guiding force for Pete (a role even Aunt May took on more during Ditko’s run). It also is important because it shows how critical Robbie is to Spider-Man at this point; even though not one bit of dialogue reference Robbie possibly knowing who Spidey is, the implication that he does is felt throughout.

Hereafter, I can’t recall if any specific references are made during Marv’s run, the Denny O’Neil transition issues, Roger Stern’s issues and for a few years. I, personally, always had it in mind whenever Robbie interacted with Pete or Spidey. I suspect some of the writers did too (certainly Marv, who was friends with Len and Gerry).

I’ll note that during Kraven’s Last Hunt, MJ suspects that Robbie suspects Pete is Spidey but doesn’t follow through and ask him about it. That’s an obvious nod to the reader’s suspicions.

Somewhere along the way, that entire bit became a less central and almost never mentioned facet of the mythos. I agree that Gerry could really have brought that back to the forefront during those Tombstone issues (BTW, I love those issues and Tombstone in general and they are a high point of the 80’s for me). It would have made a ton of sense. But I sure remember a huge friendliness, or at least an amount of familiarity Robbie showed Spidey during that era that could be interpreted as him believing it was Peter and feeling that way. But yeah, too bad Conway never followed up on that thread! The obvious reason why though is right there: MJ knew at this point Pete was Spider-Man. So what would make Robbie knowing so special? Not all that much really. So there is your answer right there as to why it became a much less important thing.

In current Spidey continuity, I think not only does Robbie suspect, but Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually know.

PS – give me your thoughts on those Tombstone issues sometime! Tombstone is my absolute favorite post-Stern era villain Spidey has ever had (possibly only Shriek and Cardiac come close). When I was 12 years old, Tombstone scared the hell out of me!

There are so many great JJJ scenes over Spidey’s history that its hard to pinpoint a few. Like I said, I love the gradual shift of his character over the decades, but I also like how it was very slow and gradual. For instance, I love during the Tablet Saga where Spidey basically almost gives JJJ a heart attack. I also love how JJJ totally is over the top in proclaiming the Prowler threw Peter Parker out the window.

I loved when he was an antagonist for Spidey in that he made his life harder, but I also loved him being played for laughs too—like proclaiming he was like a father to Peter, when he was trying to pay him peanuts for great photos. Just a great, great character. From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed. But Romita and Stan softened him up and when the real life 1960’s culture influenced Marvel more and more, JJJ emerged (with Robbie) as a mouthpiece for liberal progressive forces within the comic. This dynamic helped make Jonah a character with a lot of depth, something Marv, Roger Stern and others played with for years.

He’s currently back in the series as Mayor of NYC and I’m thrilled about it. While at first I thought the Mayor of NYC thing was needlessly over the top, I’m actually enjoying its execution. What I *hated* was the decade of almost no Jonah at all in the series.

I also love that story! That is the story above all other that made the idea of “throwing a party” and “getting coffee with your friends” so appealing to me when I was still young enough to barely scrape together $5.00. Similar to JJJ, this era also gave Flash a great dash of depth: he remained quite a jerk to Peter, but here he was going off to serve his country in Viet Nam. Ditko and Stan’s run always had him as Spidey’s biggest fan, but this took it to the next level in terms of getting readers to feel something other than animosity for him. Whenever he’d come home from the War, that dynamic would always be there and he was a great character to have around. Peter shaking his hand and wishing him luck before he leaves is a big moment for both character in terms of maturing from the beginning of the series. It’s another example of the growth and maturity of the series during this era I like.

I do agree somewhat with you that Gwen, Harry and Flash’s turnaround is rather quick. But then again, High School kids going to College do experience quick shifts in temperament so its not too far fetched. But more than anything it reflects the shift in art from Ditko’s quirky and often purposely ugly style to Romita’s softer, more beautiful style. Ditko will always be my #1 Spidey artist, but Romita is a close #2. Their styles couldn’t be more different but both are essential to understanding the history and character of Spider-Man.

Good memory, you’re exactly right! Captain Stacy first appears in the police station with John Jameson IIRC, and then we see him with Gwen. Soon after, the Kingpin story which mirrored “The Manchurian Candidate” places Captain Stacy front and center as a major supporting character.

During this time, Doc Ock and Kingpin had three terrific stories each (in what I call the second half of Spidey’s Silver Age, in other words the Romita years). The two would go back and forth with 3-4 issue arcs every 8-10 issues. In my Reviews earlier in this thread—which I admit are a little embarrassing to me as I was still kind of cutting my teeth in posting—I get into the transition of Spidey’s major villains over the years, and how at the close of Romita’s run, Spidey emerged with really no major arch-nemesis anymore. What I mean is Doc Ock went from killing Captain Stacy to having a grudge with Hammerhead (and soon ‘dying’); Green Goblin soon died and Kingpin never recovered from his battle with his son, only showing back up in Captain America of all places. So this was the perfect time for the Jackal to come in and take the place as Spidey’s new arch-nemesis for a brief period.

^For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock. When the Goblin was dead, it kept a certain aura around him to make sure he kept tied for the top spot with him; now that he’s been back for a long time, he’s lost his luster a bit. Doc Ock, like MJ, has suffered under 50 years of editors and writers giving him bad stories, so its unfortunate.

Yeah, Norman’s personality shift is big once he loses the amnesia. This is because of two factors (I have no proof of course ): (A) Ditko left and Norman the jerk was a quintessential Ditko character if there ever was one and (B) Stan didn’t care if he changed a character’s personality in a huge way if it fit the story. So Norman certainly was a bit of an awful person with bad intentions before he became the Green Goblin (which enhanced those qualities) and then once the amnesia hit—he was the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet.

The subplot where Norman begins recalling his memories which ran for a long series of issues was one that totally engrossed me and still does to this day. I’m talking about the first time around, which (stupidly IMO) continued the Spectacular Spider-Man comic book special #2—something I never even got to read until I was like 25! So I never got to see how that subplot ended. They then of course retread this during the 90’s for the second Green Goblin return story (the Harry Osborn drug issues). During that second return, Norman really lets loose as a jerk, specifically towards Randy Robertson; that bit of dialogue has serious undertones of prejudice against class & race.

You’re also right that GG’s origin is a bit of a copy of Doc Ock’s. It was a classic Stan super-villain origin. I’m trying to recall other times he used the same thing. This is basically the origin of the Jackal as well, though rather than a tragic lab experiment, it’s a psychological breakdown—an origin much more fitting for the 1970’s and Gerry Conway, though similar to the classic trope.

I agree that Doc Ock in the second Spider-Man movie was terrific—the actor does a great job at making him likeable and a good man, and really fills the character out in a way ASM #3 never did. I kind of want the movie origin to be fitted onto Doc Ock in the comics (and actually I think it has been) since Norman the jerk is a firm part of continuity now.

Wrapping up, I’m thrilled at the back and forth in this thread! I know my posts are gigantic and hope no one minds; I like getting into the long time trends of Spidey-history while at the same time really getting into the details and obscure bits!

Just finished several HOURS fixing links and re-formatting text files for the SA Marvel site... I need a break.


"Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually "know.""

EHHH!! Urich is a DD character, he shouldn't be part of Spidey's cast & problems.


"From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed."

I sometimes think JJJ & Peter were Ditko's fictional versions of Stan Lee & Steve Ditko.


"For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock."

It has bugged me for decades that The Goblin got built up into something much bigger than he deserved to be, and in the general public, more since the 1st movie perhaps than even before, he's Spidey's "arch enemy". Also because he bears a slight resemblance to The Joker, another "crazy" looking guy who at times was hard to take serious. (On the BATMAN tv show, there was no doubt that Frank Gorshin's Riddler WAS Adam West's arch-enemy! Nobody else came across that "dangerous".)

In the '67 cartoons, there was no doubt Ock was Spidey's most dangerous foe. (even though Dr. Noah Boddy claimed HE was Spider-Man's "arch-enemy"-- what was that about a king-sized ego??) Not only was Ock in the 1st episode, he radiated menace, and was willing to destroy a large section of New York City, JUST to prove a point! In his return, during a fight, he threatened to "drop the Nullifier on the city." Spidey thinks, "He's JUST the guy to DO it!" (In the cartoon, it wasn't an electronic device that would short out other devices, it was an anti-missile MISSILE.)

In the comic, Ock went from being 1-dimensional to 2 after his accident. In the movie, he went from 3-dimensional to 2 after his accident. Before, so different, but after, EXACTLY like the comics version (especially Romita's REALLY dangerous depiction of him).

What cracked me up was having never seen actor Alfred Molina before SPIDER-MAN 2, and the very day after I saw it, he appeared on tv as Hercule Poirot in a remake of MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS. (That had to have been deliberate on the part of the network scheduling.)

Ock could have been looked at as a tragic figure, as he was a decent person "before" (presumably), but as I said, once he became a super-villain, for the entirety of the 60's and 70's, nobody EVER ONCE "looked back"! That was all given over to Norman Osborn, who, in the Lee-Romita ORIGIN story, was shown to be a RAT before his accident. (I don't actually recall Norman much in the Ditko era. Wasn't he introduced only a couple of issues before Steve left?)

So Ock never got sympathy back then, because Stan apparently FORGOT all about his origin, and didn't realize he was doing with Norman what he should have been doing for Ock. (Maybe.)


To me, "Doc Ock" was a diabolical MONSTER. I don't recall if he ever crossed paths with The Green Goblin in the comics, but if he did, he would have CRUSHED him like an insect... or something. "Now-- where was I before I was so rudely interrupted?"


I have never yet read SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2 in its entirety. In the early 70's, it was reprinted in a GIANT, but they cut a LOT OF PAGES out of it!

I can see we're in total agreement about Ock. And yes, he would have CRUSHED the Green Goblin had they met.

Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko. There was a real sense that with Doc Ock, Spidey could really lose at anytime. Not many other of his enemies gave that sense of danger.

You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen, perhaps only competing would be Ian McKellan's Magneto (the latest Batman villains come close but not quite on this level).

Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie. It also had Spidey put his arm in a sling, which has been copied dozens of times in the decades sense. Naturally Pete blames it on a motorcycle accident and what made him seem cool suddenly makes him seem less so. Poor Peter.

That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things. The addition of MJ to the series was so good its easy to sometimes recall that it also meant Aunt Anna became a much bigger player in the series than before as she had more reason to be on screen. That meant Aunt May wasn't so helpless and lonely as she was under Ditko. It also meant May and Anna could show up together and they provided some welcome tension relief and humorous exchanges with Peter and the gang. All things that helped make this era so spectacular!

On another note, given I do review current Spider-Man comics, I have to say the reprinting of the online Bob Gale stories in "Peter Parker", have been terrific! Bob Gale was who I considered the weakest of the Spidey writers BND (aka the 'webheads'), but not anymore! This is a really great series full of fun and real spunk. I highly recommend this to anyone looking for a fun Spidey series, and it's also great for younger readers.

In general I liked those Conway second coming stories pretty well. I remember Spectacular with Conway being preferable to the other titles in that they were more character-driven and showcased the supporting cast better. I liked how Conway gave Robbie so much more attention than I'd ever seen him get in that era of Spidey stories.

The downside is that I found Conway's villains a little corny, including Tombstone to an extent, just as I did many of his creations that appeared during his first run. Sal Buscema's art was part of the reason. Sal's art on Spidey took a long time to grow on me. Tombstone's look just seemed kinda goofy, the chalk-white skin, the crew cut, the sharp teeth--he kinda looked like J. Jonah Jameson and Michael Morbius's bastard child!

So I enjoyed the spotlight on Robbie during that time, but my enjoyment on the Tombstone arc was tempered by my discontent with Buscema. Much more to my liking was the stuff with the Jackal, the Gwen Stacy Clone and Carrion. Pity it was all undone by the Clone Saga, but I found it enjoyable.

I finally warmed up to Sal on Spidey when DeMatteis came aboard and they told the epic Harry Osborne/Vermin mega-story! Those two blended together very well, and Sal's depiction of Harry as Green Goblin is among my very favorite visuals on the character, right up there with Romita Sr.!

"Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko."

After the 2 '67 cartoons (where, inexplicably, Doc had 2 very different voices-- the 1st, Shakespearean, the 2nd, more standard "menacing"), my next view of him was in ASM #55-- "DOC OCK WINS". Damn, is he dangerous in there! (But Spidey is also VERY pissed. Watch out, baddies.)

Your comment about the Annual reminds me of the 1st FLASH comic I ever read-- "Stupendous Triumph of the Six Super-Villains". In that, it was blatently obvious WHO The Flash's "arch-enemy" really was-- it was the guy running the show-- MIRROR MASTER. When THE FLASH tv show was on, TV GUIDE stupidly referred to The Trickster as his "arch-enemy", because A)he appeared twice, and, no doubt, B)he reminded them of The Joker. They were wrong. Over that entire tv season, it was clear to me who the coolest, and SMARTEST of the tv villains on show was-- MIRROR MASTER (played by David Cassidy!!)


"You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen"

Could be... though I'll always have a fondness for Frank Gorshin's Riddler (who was so much more dangerous than the comics version EVER was). Chuck Dixon retold ther Riddler's origin in a 'YEAR ONE" annual, which blew my mind, because for the only time reading a Riddler comic, I swore I could "hear" Gorshin's voice in the dialogue.


"Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie."

The cartoon adapting #6 was brillant. It was so odd that they did a sequel with Connors that did not feature The Lizard, but instead, brought back Aussie hunter Oli Clivendon (and also featured Ponce De Leon). The 3rd season did a terrible "sequel" that was virtually a remake, but featured an intelligent reptile, not Connors turned into one. The 2nd Lizard story in the comics was a classic, and really showed Romita at the height of his power. the action finale in part 2 went on for page after page, and never got boring. Frankly, EVERY Lizard story after that feels to me to have been uncalled-for. (Just like every Goblin sequel after SPECTACULAR #2.)


"That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things."

I loved the one time May showed up on the '67 cartoons. Pete was sick, she was nursing hjim back to health, he was annoyed at her attitude and "remedies", but unlike tyhe May in the comics, the one in that cartoon had a backbone of steel. When she told off JJJ over the phone, it was hilarious! Lots of people over the years (including John Buscema) have disliked May for her combination of physical feebleness, and gullibility somehow mixed with excessive smothering. May never quite seemed that way in the Ditko era, but the one on the G-L cartoon ("HORN OF THE RHINO") was somebody I could admire.

My first exposure to Sal Buscema'a pencils was the CAP story "Turning Point!" where he discovers he has super-strength. Steve Englehart brought back several of the baddies from the X-MEN 2-parter with Count Nefaria, and it was generally a fun issue. On re-reading it last year, I noticed something I missed before-- while John Verpoorten was credited as inker, the 1st HALF of the issue was inked by Joe Sinnott (uncredited!). NO WONDER it looked so good. I think for me, it's been downhill with Sal all the way ever since...


"You could make an entire movie out of ASM #44-45"

Maybe... but I'd hate to leave out ASM #6. But how could that work, structurally? I wonder similar thoughts about a "1st" FF movie they never made. My choice would have been some kind of adaptation of FF #1-2. You have the introduction of the characters, the origin, and the MOLE MAN on Monster Island. Actually maybe that would be enough for a whole movie. The Skrulls, should probably have their own movie, with the plot of the first 4 Skrull stories somehow stitched together into one big epic, ending with "Behold! A Distant Star!"

The only other Lizard story I ever cared for at all was the one with Morbius. I was surprised not long ago by how much I enjoyed ASM #101-- every fibre of it screams "Horror comics are back!", and it's much more fun to read than it seems it should be. Tossing The Lizard in there, with Connors in control for most of it, made an interesting change.


"Doc Conners played a critical role in #31-33 which is my favorite appearance of him EVER, and there was no need for the Lizard to be there."

I think that was the idea behind the cartoon "FOUNTAIN OF DOOM" as well, which was a sequel to both "WHERE CRAWLS THE LIZARD" and "THE ONE-EYED IDOL".

"I can assure you your demise will look like an accident."
"Now that takes a LOAD off my mind!"


"You had (2) major recurring menaces, Doc Ock and the Kingpin. The entire 50’s goes from Kingpin to Doc Ock to a few issues where Spidey has no memory (Ka-Zar and Spider-Slayer) to right back to the Kingpin when Spidey regains his memory!"

That was HELL for me. I read ASM #55 shortly after it came out (freebie from the barber's). Incredibly, I read ASM #56 shortly after! But I didn't read ASM #57 until 8 years later, when a coverless copy SOMEHOW turned up at the corner store. I read #59-up in MARVEL TALES when they came out, but had to buy a copy of #58 at a convention the first time I went to one in NYC several YEARS later. (Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't include #57 or 58 in MARVEL TALES. Grrrr.)

You think waiting a week for the conclusion of a 2-parter on TV is bad, try waiting that many YEARS to read how a story finishes!


"Medusa’s appearance"

That was FUNNY, especially the lunatic who hired her for the ad campaign, who seemed like he could have been the brother of the movie producer back in ASM #16. "I can see it all now! We'll get a hundred dancing girls..." When he tells Spidey, "She's gone mad! She's out to destroy the city!", you'd think Spidey would at least have wondered... "How?"


"Black Widow’s appearance"

I was SEVERELY disappointed when I re-read this one in sequence. It made Natasha seem really stupid, the way she acted. Then again, having read a few of her first solo episodes right after, it seems she wasn't getting much good writing around that time.


"the issue where a delirious Pete reveals his identity to everyone and the Prowler has to save his ass"

I was so tempted to just STOP re-reading my Spidey comics at that point. Right after there, to me, is when things REALLY started to take a turn for the dark side.


"the Prison riot"

Now THERE is a classic, ans one that was adapted as the season finale for the '68-'69 season of the cartoon show. Except for changing the beginning (the tv version makes no sense at all), they were surprisingly true to the comic, even using a lot of actual Stan Lee dialogue, plus the "film noir" music was fantastic. They got Stacy's voice perfect in there, too, though it's a bit odd to hear him calling his wife on the phone instead of his daughter. Something else else I forget if it was in the comic that was in the show, at the beginning Spidey is lamenting spending nights running around town chasing crooks in a hot costume. At the end, as he leaves the prison, he tells Stacy he actually LIKES doing all that. It just occurs to me NOW, in a way, they may have also been adapting ASM #50, only I think the way it was handled in that cartoon was BETTER than the actual "Spider-Man No More", which to me was too much of a violation of Pete & Spider-Man, considering WHY he became a costumed crime-fighter in the first place. (Come to think of it, when SUPERMAN did a take-off on that issue, I think they handled it better than the Spidey comic, because at least in there, Supes was suffering guilt from almost having been responsible for an innocent person's death. ALMOST. Wimp...)

The 2nd season (Bakshi & Morrow's 1st) began with "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN" (adapted not from AMAZING FANTASY #15 but instead from SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2-- they used Stan's BADLY re-written dialogue verbatim!) and ended with "TO CAGE A SPIDER" (where, as I said, he was having a crisis of confidence about whether he wanted to continue being a hero or not). Nice bookends.


I'm amazed that I'm having so much fun here talking about a series I have such a violent love-hate thing about over the years. (If it were the FF, that'd be a lot simpler. I love almost everything in Kirby's 108 issues. And I HATE with a vengeance just about everything that followed until Roy Thomas took over the writing. It's gonna be painful when I get around to re-posting all those reviews I did of that era at the SA Marvel site.)

I always lump the Medusa and Black Widow appearances together when I talk about them even though there were a dozen or so issues apart because they served the same basic purpose. You point out another interesting thing: the Medusa story was somewhat silly, but in a good way; the Black Widow story also had a bit of this silliness, but it simply didn't work with Natasha.

This is a really a key issue for the Black Widow in her history too: it bridges her Avengers appearances to her stint in Amazing Adventures (and then Daredevil). I suspect most people don't realize it was in Spider-Man where she first got her black costume, the one most associated with her.

There were two great prison riot issues in the first 100 issues: one in the early-mid 60's (a classic) and one in #99. The latter one was perhaps not quite as solid from a story standpoint but it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute.

That era was truly the second great age of horror comics, with DC and Marvel now taking a cue from Creepy and leading the charge. Gil Kane really gave his all to Marvel in a ton of different ways (his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing), and his horror work just stands out. You're 70's review thread really goes into this well.

When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent. (He eventually came back full-time in 1980 and hunted down all the Spider-Man's he missed). But eventually, I warmed up to it and came to really enjoy the story because it was just so out there, y'know? 6 armed Spidey, Morbius, the Lizard...off the wall stuff and FUN! I also love the Kraven, Ka-Zar, Gog story that followed for the same type of spirit exhibited. Both showcase Gil Kane putting Spidey in the genres of the era (horror and then monster-adventure).

Plus that latter story had Gwen in a bikini all issue and as I said, she was the great fictional love of my life when I was a kid (and still ).

I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!! Marvel should really have a Marvel Tales series reprinting Spidey these days about 3-5 years behind the current issues like it used to be, and for about $1.99. I be they'd make a killing.

I'm pretty sure John Romita designed Natasha's 2nd costume (as a tribute to Diana Rigg, no doubt, though most Americans didn't know her outfits started with Honor Blackman). For most of the 70's, The Black Widow was on my short list of sexiest women in comics, even if she didn't always get good writing. Anybody know-- was the mask & fishnets outfit designed by Don Heck, or Jack Kirby? That itself was no doubt a tribute to the earlier characters BLACK CANARY (Carmine Infantino's self-proclaimed "ideal image of a woman") and BLACK CAT (the Lee Elias biker girl character).


"it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute."

I've long felt MOST of Gil Kane's art had that vibe about it. Remember his brief run on DAREDEVIL written by Jim Shooter? Especially the last one, #151, where Matt has his nervous breakdown (which made its way into the live-action movie). I keep hoping someday they'll do a "Wally Wood" or "Gene Colan" DD movie, with Stilt-Man and Masked Marauder as the baddies (YES, STILT-MAN!), and Karen Page as the love interest. I don't know where it came from, but I actually had a DREAM about going to the theatre to see this movie they never made several weeks ago!


"his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing"

I posted a number of them at the SA site a few weeks ago in the WESTERN GUNFIGHTERS section. Some are terrific, others I'd just call "brutal!!".


"When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent."

Somehow or other, my Mom must have picked that thing up-- she was into horror, and I guess the title "VAMPIRE AT LARGE!" grabbed her attention. That issue, as far as I can recall, was my very 1st exposure to Gil Kane. What a shock! Some of his figure-work seemed awkward, and I didn't think his Gwen looked as pretty as she should have. Over the years it's taken me a LONG time to appreciate Kane's "intense" style, but he has slowly grown on me. One of the things that did it was actually drawing most of a comic-book story using SWIPES of his panels, as a tribute. By the time I was done, I realized his sensitivities were totally different than mine (I had so much trouble in spots), but it also increased my appreciation for him. The next story I drew was done mostly in STEVE DITKO swipes-- also as a fun experiment & tribute. I was shocked when that worked out so well. I'd never have imagined my sensibilities could be so in tune with his!


"I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!!"

One of Nick Simon's coolest ideas at the SA Marvel site was "compare" pages to show original and reprint covers side-by-side. But one of the biggest changes I made when I started work on the side was changing the "compare" pages from being linked in sequence to the reprints, to linked in sequence to the originals. I did this specifically because of how CHAOTIC Marvel's reprints have been over the years.

One example that stands out in my head was Iron Man, which started in MARVEL'S COLLECTOR ITEM CLASSICS/MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS, but then moved to MARVEL SUPER-HEROES before landing in MARVEL DOUBLE-FEATURE (with a pair of IRON MAN ANNUALs in between).

I was so thrilled in the late 70's when I got my first job and was able to start going to comic book conventions and buying the originals of so many 60's comics, for relatively cheap. I only wish I'd bought a lot more, before prices went completely insane.

When MARVEL TALES "started over" in the early 80's it was the first time they had ever reprinted the entire Ditko era-- EVERY episode-- in sequence (well, maybe not the Annuals). ASM #29, the 2nd Scorpion story, had NEVER been reprinted, and when they approached that issue, they discovered the reason was, no stats or negatives could be found. So they hired outside help (Owen McCarron did the work) to RE-CREATE the art so new stats could be shot, which have been used (more or less) ever since. I later figured out while watching the '67 cartoons that the original stats may have been loaned to Grantray-Lawrence for reference, since quite a few panels from that issue were recognizably animated in the 1st Scorpion cartoon (a combination adaptation of the 1st AND 2nd stories from the comics). When G-L went belly-up, apparently a lot of art they had in their possession "went home" with their former employees.

What really pissed me off about the 80's MARVEL TALES run was, they stopped with #50. One episode into a 3-parter! To this day, I have still NEVER READ #51-52, even though I've seen the TV adaptation(s) of it dozens and dozens of times. ("KING PINNED", with the climax from the comic actually appearing in "THE BIG BRAINWASHER"-- go figure.)

Yeah, you nailed it--the facial expressions were what turned me off initially. They seemed kind of out of place on a Spider-man book. You see, I was 100% fine with Sal's work on Thor after Walt Simonson stopped pencilling but remained as writer. His style fit in well with Walt's and, honestly, Sal had altered his style somewhat to fit in with what Walt had been doing. I was used to more exaggeration and stylistic choices on that book, so his work on Thor worked for me very well. I liked it a lot.

But Spider-man at the time was a more vanilla book traditionally with its art in that era with the rare exceptions of Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen. Sal's style was neither super-progressive like McFarlane nor of the Spider-man house style that had been prevalent with such artists as Romita Jr. (his early work, of course), Al Milgrom, Rick Burchet, Ross Andru or various others who'd been on the Spidey books--all inoffensive and unremarkable but with a certain consistency and contemporary feel to them.

Sal on Spectacular by comparison just felt too '70s. He shared some stylistic similarities in his artistic approach to Gil Kane, another artist it took me a long time to warm up to. So with Sal we had neither the progressive flair that had shown up recently in Amazing nor the Spidey house style of recent times. It was retro and exaggerated, especially in the facial expressions. But like I said, it eventually grew on me, and I could appreciate the craft, just as I came to with Gil Kane.

Tombstone was one of the rare attempts to create someone knew for Spidey to fight and a way to make Robbie more relevant in the supporting cast, so I applaud Conway for bringing him in. But doesn't my "bastard child of Michael Morbius and J. Jonah Jameson" comment just nail it on the head?

This one?



Man! That DeMatteis/Buscema run was, well, spectacular wasn't it? I see now it was longer than I'd originally thought, at about two years. I've often found it disappointing that he and Peter David never seemed to stick around on Spidey for a very long time, as they and Roger Stern have the best knack for writing the character other than Stan himself, IMO.

Sorry, only the vaguest of recollections about those Puma issues, Des. Probably my strongest impressions of that character were from stories by Tom DeFalco and Peter David.

Again, the memory's imperfect here, but I recall that Gerry in his use of the Jackal, Carrion and the Gwen clone was trying to explain that they were never actually clones to fit in, I think, to fit in to some editorial edict or ret-conning of some sort (memory very fuzzy, there). Somehow, I enjoyed it anyway because I'd read reprints of the original stories and was glad to see them revisited, even with a revisionist bent, by the writer who'd come up with all of these concepts in the first place.

In a way the annual and the Carrion stories Conway did undermined the previous stories, but just the fact that they were being revisited was enjoyable in any way was fun for me. Then came the Clone Saga and took things too, TOO far...

You know, I also have no idea who designed the Black Widow’s original ‘costume’ with the fishnets. Either way, while her personality was sexy, she was never explicitly attractive in it by either Kirby or Heck. In fact, she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances. Like you said though, once she got the second costume, she was quickly among the sexiest comic book characters in the entire 70’s. Again, as a redhead, you can see how she was right up Romita’s ally. She’s similar enough in appearance to Mary Jane, but with the sexy spy attitude added and a sleek costume showcasing her figure. What’s not to like?

While we’re on the topic, I’ll also note that Quicksilver has the same type of appearance as Medusa and Black Widow—showing up in Spider-Man to ‘stay on the radar’ for the readers. Only, Peitro & Wanda weren’t getting their own series (I’m never sure if this occurred right in the middle of the two Avengers / Magneto stories when Roy took over or not), and also, Quicksilver showed up smack dab in the middle of the Tablet Saga, so I always fit it into that. I really love the Tablet Saga, which isn’t so much a saga but a string of stories connected by the Tablet. It wasn’t perfect but had a lot of terrific sequences: some great campus drama (man, I hated Josh, Randy’s friend, when I was a kid), the Kingpin once more, Shocker, Man Mountain Marko (who I always have a fondness for), Silvermane (who was so awesome in his first story they should NEVER have brought him back) and then the Lizard. Plus all kinds of little things like Caesar Cicero, a spineless little gangster thrown in there.

The more we talk, the more I think I need a solid official reread of the entire Spider-Man run complete with in depth reviews of each issue (with a disclaimer that most will be positive).

Just look at that cover! That’s exactly the one I was talking about. By far the best Vermin cover of all time! How could you *not* buy that off the stands? I definitely here what you’re saying about Sal too—his art never really seemed to fit any mold, except, oddly enough, Walt’s Thor. When I look back at this era, of all the Spider-titles, Sal was Spectacular which I now like, ASM had either McFarlane (who I loved) or Larsen (who I liked but not quite as much) and then there was Web of Spider-Man, which because it had a more traditional look to it, feels slightly flatter to me now. It’s still fine, mind you, and I can’t complain, but its just not as dynamic.

Regarding DeMatteis, I agree whole-heartedly—he’s one of the great Spider-Man writers of all time, and I love when he returns to the character. He’s had several runs, and sometimes they are where you least expect them, like a fairly excellent post-Clone Saga run in the late 90’s. He even writes a story or two these days in the post-BND world. Of course, my favorite story of his will always be Kraven’s Last Hunt, which is perfection all around, and is actually my father’s single favorite post-Ditko Spider-Man story ever. It would make my best of list, should I ever make one (disclaimer: I never will ). What works with DeMatteis is his knack for delving into a character and really developing them in the fullest meaning of the world. He does that with villains, supporting cast, walk-on characters and even with Peter himself, which sometimes writers forget to do. While PAD has had some great stories on Spidey, I would not put him on the list of greatest Spidey writers ever; however, Stern and DeMatteis are certainly there, coming close to Stan. And really that’s high praise because for the most part, Spidey has had some terrific writers with some great runs: Bill Mantlo, David Michellenie, Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman (to a much lesser extent) and others.

He’s also had some great writers give some pretty mediocre runs like Len Wein and Denny O’Neil but that’s neither here nor there. (Don’t get me started on John Byrne).

FYI, of the current Spidey writers, I do think Van Lente is showing he has a feel for Spidey in a similar way to these two. I’m not just saying that—I honestly think that. Joe Kelly also has a knack for writing Spidey, but he’s more on the quirky side of things. Those are the two best current Spidey writers besides of course, Roger Stern, who now is once more a guiding force on the title.

MARVEL TEAM-UP #14

Feast your eyes on several interior pages
by GIL KANE and WAYNE HOWARD!


Go to...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

Click "TITLES", "SUB-MARINER", "51-72", "MTU 14" and "INTERIORS".

"she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances"

No question. Natasha was fantastic in TALES OF SUSPENSE, but once she turned up in AVENGERS, nobody quite seemed to know what to do with her. If you check out "Hawkeyte The Marksman" in TOS #57, I'd swear she was inspired by Sophia Loren. (I finally figured this out watching one of her films on TCM, ARABESQUE.)


"the Kingpin once more"

What's crazy, in the usual film-making habit of "mix-and-match", a sequence from the 3rd Kingpin story-- where Spidey pursues him across town, then foils an ambush as he enters a darkened warehouse, turned up as part of the 2nd Kingpin cartoon, "THE BIG BRAINWASHER". That short 10-min. cartoon contained elements from the first 3 Kingpin storylines, all meshed together in one!

Wow, you've really done a lot for the site! I haven't checked it out in quite awhile (I used to look at it regularly years ago), so its great to see so much more beyond the Silver Age!

While Nick himself has a lot of earlier stuff, he specifically requested I NOT go "later". However, I am planning, eventually, to add any and all reprints of the 60's material I can find.


Nick set up the entire run of SGT. FURY, but this was (mostly) because the later part of the run was MOSTLY reprints! When I went at it the other month, Nick was still missing more than half of the SF covers! He couldn't believe I managed to post ALL of them in only 3 weeks. (Mind you, they were mostly very minor clean-ups of scans taken from the GDC... I've been going after higher quality in the updates I've been doing the last month or so. That's what's taking the GHOST RIDER section so long to get finished.)

The SUB-MARINER section was actually the first one I upgraded, back in Nov'08. I just re-formatted EVERY page of it the other week, so the design of the p[ages would match the rest of the site (link buttons, spaceing) and to give it a new color scheme. While I was at it, I finally got around to adding MTU #14. MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #2 was the first instance where I added a cover of a one series into the run of another one. (At the moment, those are the only 2 70's "team-up" issues at the entire site!)

In MTU #14, it kinda bugs me that Len Wein couldn't seem to make up his mind whether to call those critters "Aquanoids" or "Men-Fish". (Or could that be editorial tampering on Roy Thomas' part? They seemed to be doing a lot of monsters witrh the word "Man" in them right then-- Man-Wolf, Man-Thing, etc. I think Aquanoids sounds cooler...)

Honestly, if Van Lente was writing a Spidey title solo, I'd definitely give it a hard look. But the current style with rotating writers and artist and thrice-monthly publication earns Amazing a continual pass from me indefinitely. It's tempting to just pick up the issues written by the guys I like, but that's just too damn much work!

I'm kinda surprised and a little disappointed that you wouldn't rank PAD up there with DeMatteis and Stern. Maybe part of it's his disappointing and editorially-crippling run on Friendly Neighborhood? Though I haven't read any of those stories, I would give him a pass based on the crap he had to work with, especially that stunt with Peter's outing as Spider-man.

But if that isn't what's shading your opinion of PAD's work on Spidey, I'd certainly like to hear more. To me, PAD just absolutely NAILED Peter's character, voice and attitude in ways that very few writers have achieved and told some incredibly entertaining yarns in the process.

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it why I wouldn’t rank PAD up there, because of his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man run. But you know, thinking about it further, you’re probably right that PAD was crippled by editorial involvement and the awful Civil War tie-in story to Peter’s life. Certainly I’ve come to realize JMS didn’t really intend for a lot of his stories to end up like they did so its only fair to assume the same happened to PAD.

So, let’s eliminate FNS from the equation, and focus on PPTSS, where PAD really got his start. And there, I absolutely love it! I really have no criticism for PAD’s run on Spectacular and instead see this as a high point in Spidey’s history, where Spectacular may have been the best Spider-Man book of them all.

Certainly, Death of Jean DeWolfe is the story everyone points to as the classic PAD story and with good reason. It’s one of the great Spider-Man stories of all time, and its chalk full of suspense and characterization, and then packs an emotional wallop. Captain DeWolfe’s death occurred at a time where death really still meant something and PAD’s heart-breaking delivery of it made it mean so much more.

PAD also introduced the Foreigner, an awesome villain for that era that wasn’t really a villain. A lesser-known PAD villain for Spidey was the Blaze, who went against him twice, that I think was a pretty great obscure bad guy. He definitely shouldn’t have passed into limbo. He also did a bunch of cool Sabertooth stories, including I think the one where the Black Cat kicks his ass?

Thinking back on PAD’s run, most of it didn’t really have many super-villains. Peter David has always excelled at making the scenarios more important than the villains and here we really see him do that. This was a great era of Spider-Man stories that were usually one-offs with no super-villains.

PAD always wrote a solid MJ in the year or two after we, the readers, learned she knew Pete was Spidey but they weren’t quite married yet. I think he was instrumental in getting the readers back on board with the MJ/Pete relationship. While DeFalco was obviously going there, PAD made it seem more seemless, as if these two long-time friends truly cared for one another beyond a friendship way despite having hesitations for revisiting it. And all of that was pretty subtle and gradual.

BTW, little known PAD fact: he created Joe’s wife, Amanda Robertson! Such an obvious idea but he was the one who did it.

All in all, PAD certainly has “Peter’s voice” down perfect, as you mention. He also had Mary Jane’s, Jonah’s and Robbie’s. My one complaint might be he didn’t really get into the other larger supporting cast but to be fair (A) ASM was already doing that and (B) if he’s getting Pete, MJ, JJJ and Robbie right *and* giving us excellent stories, I’m really starting to nitpick.

PAD also did the Sin-Eater sequel story a few years later with Electro in it, and I’ve always thought that was also a very good read. Not on par with the amazing Death of Jean DeWolfe but certainly worth buying and rereading. In a roundabout way, this connects our whole conversation on Spectacular Spider-Man as I think it was this story that was PAD’s last and Sal Buscema’s first, beginning his long run; and it also changed the title from “Peter Parker: the Spectacular Spider-Man” to the much more elegant “Spectacular Spider-Man”.

Upon further thought, I realize I may be unfair to PAD because I’m giving his FNS too much weight in my analysis. You may be right in that he deserves his ranking up there with Stern and DeMatteis. He is certainly one of the best. I also suspect he’ll eventually make his way back to writing Spider-Man, as he always seems to come around to him, just like many other former writers.

PS – thought I should mention I have a soft spot for the black costume and that’s largely because most of the black costume era stories were so solid, particularly PAD’s PPTSS and ASM under Stern and then DeFalco.

Yeah, I can’t fault you for that. For every great Spider-Man story so far there have been an equal number of mediocre ones, and a couple of real duds too.

I don't know all the details, but I feel like PAD probably didn't know the Peter being outed as Spidey development was coming when he took the job. I just don't see him returning to Peter knowing a cheap stunt was coming that would undermine everything Peter Parker stands for. Everything I've seen of his past work, PAD would get how wrong that would be and turn it down. (I think I read an interview that implied he didn't know, but don't quote me.)

I remember that he really wanted to delve into Peter's teaching job in the early interviews. I can see PAD getting into that a lot. But the unmasking definitely pulled the rug out from underneath that angle. I'd guess that when the unmasking was a foregone conclusion PAD probably decided to stick it out and make lemonade from the lemons he was given.

All this is assumption and conjecture on my part. Like I said, I haven't even read any Friendly Neighborhood other than the early issues tying in with "The Other". I never even finished that (admittedly horrible) arc because it coincided with a temporary break collecting monthly comics I took when I started having trouble with the internet subscription service I was using. Otherwise, I fully inended to pick up Friendly Neighborhood. But all the pub the unmasking got kept me from ever following up when I got back in because the idea turned me off so much.

So discounting that run, I'm glad you ultimately agree that PAD was worthy of being considered amongst the best Spidey writers. I bet if he could've had as much absolute control creatively as he did over the Hulk, he would have had a run compatible in length to that one. But with that many monthly books and rock-tight editorial control, that wasn't ever gonna happen.

Yeah, PAD had to deal with Peter having a new secret ID as a teacher after he'd been outed, and then he brought back Deb Whitman in a way I really disliked, and even used Flash in a way I found pretty distasteful too. Probably he had to try to make lemonade out of some serious lemons, but all it did was turn me off more. But really, that whole Civil War era of Spidey sucked so bad, I almost want to give everyone that wasn't an editor a pass because I bet they're all embarrassed they were involved.

Any further thoughts on Death of Jean DeWolfe and the sequel story with Sin-Eater? In an era where the Green Goblin is back, the Jackal came back for the Clone Saga and it feels like just about anyone can come back, I really like that Sin-Eater is a Spider-Man enemy that is largely left alone (or forgotten but thats okay). He's a great, great character.

That's one (or two) story(s) that I'll have to revisit someday. The details are a little fuzzy, but I remember what a gritty, involving story it was. I was only familiar with Jean as a bit player among the supporting cast, but PAD really made me feel her loss.

It was one of the very first PAD Spidey stories and was very counter to the more light-hearted, breezy stories that would typify what he's known for. Don't get me wrong, PAD would write more Spidey stories with serious subject matter than just this one, but this was the first and only with that gritty, Frank Miller-ish feel to it. I know the Rich Bucler art (it was him, right?) on that arc was evocative of Miller's stuff as well. It was moving, suspenseful and dense.

I think it's great that PAD didn't feel like he had to continue writing Spidey under that darker lens. So many witers get so shoe-horned into writing characters a certain way, and with all the acclaim and attention PAD got from that story, you couldn't have blamed him if he gave us more of the same. But he didn't and found a way instead of distilling Peter's essence in a way that only a few writers have over the decades.

In any case "The Death of Jean DeWolffe" would definitely make my list of the best Spidey stories/arcs I've ever read, if I was ever so inclined to do so...but I won't!

Rich Buckler is indeed the artist.

I agree that PAD did a great job doing a real serious story but then having the confidence to pull back so the title didn't get stuck in a repetitive overly dark tone.

I remember getting to know Jean DeWolfe via her appearances in PPTSS (and possibly ASM, I'd have to check). But I didn't realize she first debuted in Marvel Team-Up in a really big way, as a major character in perhaps the best MTU story of them all, the Wraith Saga with Iron Man (and Dr. Strange). I only read that a few years ago to see what a big splash she made.

In the early 80's, it was still easy for Marvel readers to keep track of all the great NYC cops that were a part of the heroes lives. There was Turk, Captain Jean DeWolfe, Blackbird and D.A. Tower--all four appeared in a few Marvel titles. Nowadays there are so many walk-ons that it's hard for someone to leave a mark.

Picking up a little on the latest Spider-Man comics:

I'm not quite sure where I left off so I'll just do the last few. Spider-Man is in the midst of the Gauntlet, where many of his classic foes are being 'revamped' in the sense that they are getting a fresh coat of paint and being re-established as the real threats they should be perceived as. It's all actually been quite respectful thus far (as it should be), and IMO a big success.

First, the Rhino stories by Joe Kelly (there were two and not in a row) were nothing short of extraordinary. Hands-down, these are the two best Rhino stories ever written, and Joe Kelly reminds again why he's has risen to the top of the web-heads as a master of Spider-Man. He's giving out Grade A+ work right now and his Spider-Man stories are something to look forward to. His humor isn't forced and just works, his stories are poignant and really evoke a strong sense of emotion and he's created such a great character in Norah.

Up next has been the Zeb Wells & Chris Bachalo story 'Shed' in which the Lizard is taken to the next level--and this story is downright scary! Wells has been one of the weaker web-heads in IMO and Bachalo's art has never been my favorite, yet this story really is a fantastic job by both of them, and is full of tension and horror in a way the Lizard hasn't been since probably ASM #6. The Lizard has been one of my favorite Spider-Man villains and Curt Conners has been one of my favorite supporting cast members over the years; here, this is a big time game-changer.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">No Lizard story will ever be the same. Billy Conners is killed by the Lizard.</span></span>

It's a tough line to walk for a writer, but I think they pulled it off because of the strength of the writing. Absolutely, Curt Conners can't be the same after this--but I'm interested in what the web-heads come up with, since I've felt that way a few times in recent years (Flash, JJJ) and they've shown me just when you think a character's story is over, there is a whole other era about to begin.

Last, I've been enjoying the hell out of the Peter Parker series, which are the reprints of the online web-comic by Bob Gale and Pat Olliffe. Gale also was one of the 'weaker' Spider-Man writers IMO but not anymore--he's showing he has the chops to provide well-written, heavy characterization inspired stories that are both fun and interesting. Olliffe's art is terrific, as anyone who loved Untold Tales of Spider-Man will recall, and he's only gotten better with age. He knows how to draw Spidey in that quirky style reminiscent of Ditko, where his poses should look weird but yet look very fluid and pretty. I absolutely recommend Peter Parker to anyone who is looking for a fun Spider-Man story!

So, all in all, lately the Spider-Man stories have all been quite good!

I read the Annual. Liked it, but then again...both stories are set way back in time at the beginning of his career.

I heard about the spoiler above...makes me glad I don't read the series anymore.

Over at Kirby-L, a topic named "drug talk?" cropped up. Mention was made of GREEN LANTERN and Spidey. My response... (once more down bad memory lane... heeheehee)


"But O'Neil's had better art!"


Debateable.


How many here in the last few months have badmouthed Neal Adams?


By comparison, do you know how much I tend to HATE Gil Kane's work? (I have an improved admiration for some of it, but he'll never be on my top 50 artists lists).


As for "story"... John, or Gil, or both (most likely) turned MJ into a TOTAL BITCH, in order to throw it right in Harry 's face that she was not "his" girl, and she was getting fed up with his possessive attitude. Because, I suspect, deep down, she NEVER got over he major thing for Peter, who was all serious and hung up over that REAL bitch, Gwen, who seemed to cause Pete nothing but hell from the day they met (typical American romance). Anybody with ANY brains could have seen that Harry & Gwen belonged together... anyone but STAN "God Almighty" Lee, who INSISTED Pete be with the BLONDE (since, after all, Stan MARRIED one).


So Harry, frustrated, takes REALLY bad advice from some scuzbucket pushing drugs-- "Hey, man, these'll make your problems go away". Harry flips out... NORMAN flips out. Now Pete's got REAL problems. And there was NO NEED for the G**D*** Goblin to ever, ever come back... but that's STAN for you.


The guy on the rooftop was just a sideshow.


Seriously, the whole damn series WENT TO HELL the minute they killed Gwen's Dad. She may have been (mostly) a waste of time, but HE was a really cool character who deserved better-- DAMMIT.


Henry

This is what I get for looking at all these Dan DeCarlo & Stan Goldberg comics
this past week or so...


I was sitting at work today when it suddenly occured to me... Stan Lee, when he
was (AHEM!) "writing" AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, must have CONFUSED the personalities
of Gwen & MJ with-- NOT Veronica & Betty, but Millie & Chili! (Gwen & Millie,
both blondes, MJ & Chili, both redheads)


Stan, not being the actual plotter of the stories (except for after-the-fact,
natch), seemed oblivious that GWEN was the "stuck-up self-centered girl" from
the good family, while MJ was the "nice girl from next door".


I mean, GEEZ-- anybopdy who actually read the last year of Steve Ditko's run
would NEVER have mistaken Gwen for anything else! (I guess Stan's memory MUST be
virtually non-existent, he doesn't even remember what he worked on himself!)


Henry

^Always interested in hearing your opinions Prof on Spider-Man's past since you have a unique viewpoint (being an artist yourself; collecting them closer to when they actually came out).

I'm absolutely going to check out the Milli & Chilli comparison. I suspect that's the case. In the 1970's, it's hilarious how many Marvel romance comics have characters that look totally like Pete & MJ or Pete & Gwen.

I also liked the annual quite a bit. First and foremost is the gorgeous cover by Marcos Martin, who has quickly become one of my favorite artists based on his Spider-Man work within the last two years (just like Javier Rodriguez). I like these two guy's art so much, I would probably buy anything they did.

I liked the Cap/Spidey first team-up story and it's a great idea for a story that fits right into continuity. The ending was especially nice with (A) Peter not wanting to hurt Cap in the public's eye, (B) Peter knowing at least someone believes in Spidey and that's enough and (C) Cap realizing via Spidey's plight that there are other misunderstood heroes out there which he could help, leading to Hawkeye, Wanda & Pietro and of course a plethora of others. The story itself wasn't anything spectacular but it was fun.

The back-up 'Untold Tale of Spider-Man' was a treat since I would consider that series one of my 'beloved' series of all time. I wish it had a bit more to it than a love letter to Stan and Marvel Comics (since I feel this is done so often now its unnecessary; that type of story also is more like DC Comics in the 1950's in Strange Adventures with John Broome & Julie Schwartz breaking the 4th wall than the early Silver Age Marvel (which also had Stan & Jack show-up, but never anyone in Spidey per Ditko's firm tastes). Still, if half of the comics I bought had the sense of fun that this story had, I'd be a happy camper.

BTW, Pat Olife is the artist on the Peter Parker series with Bob Gale that I’ve mentioned a few times in recent Spider-Man discussions. It reads very much like UToS in the ‘spirit’ of the series sense (more focus on heroism & fun).

Black Cat miniseries review up here--so good it deserved to be in the "Any Recommendations?" thread!

So... bad news , Cobie?

Getting my 2 year old to write it would be better than Joey Q's explanation for why they didn't end up getting married...and the whisper was sooo anticlimactic it's really sad.

Sooo glad I gave up on this years ago. Don't even get me started on Spidey ripping part of someone's face off during the Kraven thing.

Thank God for reviews so I can feel justified in saying that Marvel has destroyed the present day Spider-Man. Thank God for the old stuff.

^I'm really behind on Spidey so I stopped reading Dev's post after a mention of the last few stories.

But I did see your link Lardy. (FYI, I have read absolutely no news from Comic Con all weekend and checking the websites seems overwhelming at this point--I had a long weekend of debauchery. )

My reaction? SUCKS. Slott makes me grown, Ramos' art is one of the only artists in comics I can't stand. At least Marcos Martin is still around. Hobgoblin is my favorite but I actually am worried because Slott is writing him.

My question is what about Van Lente, Joe Kelly and Zeb Wells. You know, the guys who wrote the good Spider-stories? Is there now going to be another monthly Spider-title? I figure there must be, since Marvel isn't the kind of company to miss an opportunity to bleed fans dry. I'd welcome another Slott-less Spider title myself.

Ugh. Not a good way to start my Comic Con news. What's next--Dan Didio is writing another DC book?

Something else else interesting about all the Spider-inteviews and news is Waid himself admits that the story he wrote where Pete screws up photography career was a big blunder on his part (Waid's part). I lambasted him earlier in this thread for that. Glad to hear him apologize to me directly (and the rest of the world too, I assume ).

EDIT: as I'm reading the Slott interview, some of what he says sounds very right to me. He's keeping Spidey's large cast while giving Peter a job and interesting new cast members. That's all good. Of course, we'll see how that is executed.

I'm catching up on some Spider-Man reading:

I read the fourth issue of Peter Parker, which completes the first story-arc and it left me with a huge smile on my face. What a terrific job Bob Gale and Pat Oliffe did on this series! This is the biggest and best secret in Spider-town. I know it started as a web-comic and then was reprinted, but it was worth every penny. It was light-hearted, but not too much, and it chalk-full of character moments on every page. As long as they keep publishing these, I'll keep buying them.

I also caught up on the Grim Hunt storyline, by Joe Kelly, who is normally my favorite of the Webheads. I'm at odds with myself because at the same time, I loved it because it was just so damn well done and well-written, but on the other hand, I actually really dislike the outcome of the story. I did like how each issue was jam-packed and it was really cool to see within the same story various Spider-Woman such as Arana, Mattie Franklin, Julia Carpenter and Madame Web, Kaine from the clone saga, which blows my mind that we're seeing him, Ezekial from JMS's run, which is also a shocker, the entire Kravinoff clan from over the years, and also Mysterio, the Chameleon, Electro and other villains. There was quite a bit jammed into this.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Oh, and just if your curious, one of those people I mention above is the Chameleon in a really awesome twist.</span></span>

It was a very dark story. The back-up was by J.M. Dematteis, which tells me he approves of it, so that was nice. The back-up itself was only 'okay', revealing a Kraven/Kaine untold story that was more cool to see them battling one another than the story was good. It further heightens the 'hunter vs. spyder' theme going on and naturally sets up a future story when the epilogue of the Grim Hunt was revealed.

What I didn't like:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Come on, you had to bring back Kraven the Hunter from the dead? One of the all-time best deaths in comics as the ending to one of the all-time best Spider-Man stories...it should not have been touched. I'm a bit dissapointed that Kraven is back.

However, I will admit, his return was done well in that he is written pretty damn good: he is as torn as he ever was, and he's as badass as ever. I was really glad to see him kill-off his wife & Vladmir at the end, and am kind of hoping Aloysha gets it next. The idea of a 'clan of Kravens' is cool for one story; now I don't want to see it repeated ever again.

Does Kraven coming back from the dead really bother me all that much? Not really. Not like Aunt May, for instance, or Norman Osborn. But I wish they hadn't.</span></span>

So I guess Arana leaves this story all set to star in a Spider-Girl series. I've never really felt the need to buy Spider-Man spin-offs that don't star Peter unless I love the creative team, so I guess I'll see who it is. The character is a blank slate to me.

The next story up is "One Moment in Time" which I assume is controversial.

Here's a review a friend of mine did of the issue. He said he went easy on it : http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1534465

I'm not reading it yet until I read the issues, but I love me a RIPPING review, so I'm actually looking forward to it.

As I catch up on the Spider-Man comics, next up is Web of Spider-Man which is a Spidey anthology comic that I’ve enjoyed immensely. I know its ending and that’s too bad as this has been a high point of this era to get an extra dose of short Spider-Man stories that for most part have all been great and often times excellent.

A large part of that is Fred Van Lente, who I feel is an upcoming comics genius and the best writer of Spider-Man since Roger Stern and JM DeMatteis and hopefully will have future opportunities to prove it. In his story that was a 3-parter over the last 3 issues of Web, he provides a solid Spider-Man story that reminds me how to do exactly that. He introduces an original and interesting new villain, the Extremist, to provide a very real threat to Spidey, while at the same time using the story within to showcase several people in the supporting cast, including Flash Thompson, Michelle and of course, Jonah Jameson. The story was perfect in providing some insight into what makes Peter so heroic while also being tension-filled and interesting. I’d actually like to see the Extremist again, though given the ending, I’m not sure if that’s possible. Van Lente also does a great job at having Jonah as Mayor be so much fun. And lastly, he brought in some many tidbits of Spidey lore, including one of Spidey’s little used devices, which he used way back in ASM #2.

What I also liked about this lead story is the artwork, which oddly encompassed three different artists. Pat Oliffe provides yet another stunning job, and one of my personal faves, Javier Rodriguez provides some amazing art as usual. The third artist is one I don’t recognize but now kind of like, Nick Dragotta. I hope to see him on more Spider-Man stories, as he provided the quirky, dynamic look and feel that fits Spidey so well. While there is an obvious similarity to the Marcos Martin / Javier Rodriguez school, there are some very clear influences at work here as well: his Spider-Man looks like John Romita Sr. in a big way; his Cyclops (in a quick cameo) is a dead-ringer for John Byrne’s Cyclops (I almost wondered if Byrne drew him into the panel!) and then I noticed in the final part of the story that his action scenes with Spidey looked quite a lot like classic Spidey artist Ross Andru! Very cool mix of influences.

Also running through Web if a back-up story featuring Jackpot the super heroine who first showed up in BND to trick readers into thinking she was MJ. I liked the idea of Jackpot during her appearances in ASM and actually liked the revelation of who she was and her exit from the scene. Since then, she reappeared with her own miniseries by creator Marc Guggenheim; I didn’t buy it though, as like I said before, I don’t buy Spidey spin-offs without Peter unless I think the creative team is outstanding or I’m really interested. I’ve simply been burnt too many times (I’m looking at you Nightwatch). My thoughts on this back-up are: “it’s okay”. It’s not bad but its nothing to write home to Mom about. Guggenhein doesn’t really give me a sense of who Jackpot is rather than she is someone who doesn’t really know what they are doing. I like seeing obscure Spider-Man villain White Dragon (with new name for no reason) as well as newer villain Mr. Negative and mainstay Boomerang. However, none are really used all that greatly yet. I also understand yet another person calling himself the Rose was responsible for Jackpot’s husbands death (via Boomerang) and that kind of makes me shrug as there wasn’t a need for yet another Rose, whose history is already over-complicated. I hate that kind of thing in comic books (I all the over-complicating of people becoming the second or third of some costumed identity, or even worse, switching for no reason, the “Fabian Nicieza Syndrome” ).

Another thing I forgot to mention is how much I’m enjoying the Stan Lee / Marcos Martin two-page back-ups in ASM these days, called Spidey Sunday Funnies or some such title. While I enjoy some Stan dialogue, I often get a little annoyed at his Funky Flashman-type personality traits. In other words, I respect Stan, though I’m still mad for the artist who never got credit while he soaked it all up, so on any given day I may not enjoy his involvement. But that’s all besides the point because every issue has two pages of Marcos Martin providing incredible layouts and amazing depictions that make me drool. He’s the closest thing right now at Marvel like Darwyn Cooke and I just love everything he does.

Okay, on to One Moment in Time, of which I only have the first issue. All I can say is: I’m having absolutely no fun in reading it. And that is never a good thing. The entire mess of One More Day had been completely erased from my mind by this point (I know not the same with others) but this story only brings back all that. This story obviously is only going to serve the purpose of explaining what happened at specific points in Peter’s history which naturally infers it will not address many other tidbits; so why even bother? Any attempt at explaining away the timeline is the same as DC’s attempts post-Crisis and destined to fail. It will never be good enough—and with this first issue, it clearly isn’t. The hooky, Peter missed the ceremony bit is as unoriginal as it gets in Spider-Man’s history.

I’m not sure what to expect in terms of Mephisto—if they’ll ever explain that at all. And how could they? The only way to help gain points is to make sure neither MJ nor Peter made a deal with the devil. So how then did this new status quo happen? Do I even care?

The only plus for me was the art by Paulo Rivera, whom I like. I used to like Joe Q’s art back on Daredevil but to be honest, I haven’t enjoyed it in years. He’s all style with little substance.

OMIT will get ripped apart I suspect by fans, and with good reason. 'Boot, I'll be checking out that link in a few seconds (and on an unrelated note, get to your PM too!)

From the link Reboot posted: "It doesn’t read like Quesada is trying to tell a decent story, it reads purely like he’s trying to get this out of the way so that he won’t have to answer questions about it any more, which is just not satisfactory at all."

That's actually the best way to put it I think.

Cobie...you're telling me that you're good with what Spidey did at the end of the Kraven story?

Which part do you mean, Dev?

Joe Kelly went to great pains to showcase that Peter will not kill his enemies, which seperates him from Kraven, and also Kaine.

(I've read about 10 Spider-Man comics in 2 days...coupled with a stressful workplace and baby...so forgive me, I think my legendary memory might be fading on the short term )

I thought Fabian Niceza syndrome was, as Paul O'Brien once put it:

Yup, he does that too!

Just in case...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">The part where he rips off part of the one characters face. Not exactly something that any Spider Man I know of would do. Sorry, it's just not the Peter Parker that I used to read about. </span></span>

I think "eugh" is a reasonable response to that. I agree that inflicting a Mark of Kaine-type injury is ridiculously out-of-character for any Spider-Man I'd care to read.

As for that scene--and this is actually a different kind of criticism--it's pretty hard to figure out what the hell exactly happened. It almost seemed like Peter inflicted the mark of Kaine, which he clearly doesn't have the ability to do. (It fits into the larger theme of what Kelly was going for in terms of the Kaine/Peter conflict with the Kravinoffs and similarities & differences, etc.).

He doesn't really 'rip her face off', but honestly, I don't know what he does. Afterwards you can see her face and it's clearly all there, but with a huge hand-shaped bruise over it (whether its a bruise or flesh, who knows). What Joe Kelly was going for was similar to what PAD did in the Death of Jean DeWolfe story where Peter beats Sin-Eater senseless. Peter had just watched Kaine impaled, Mattie Franklin sacrificed on an altar and other atrocities--he was on the verge of losing it but ultimately pulls back before he kills someone. Was it effective? That's for each person to decide. I certainly don't think it was anywhere near as good as the Sin-Eater scene. I didn't find it at all that out there given the story being told and I didn't think it was completely out of character either. I thought it was very much in character and certainly not on par, travesty wise, as actually bringing Kraven back from the dead. (That's my personal opinion though; you both say it's not a Spider-Man you care to read and I understand that).

The whole sequence could have been better if it was more clear in exactly what happened. That is probably Joe Kelly's biggest flaw as a story-teller sometimes, like Giffen's.

Looks pretty nasty here...definate sound of flesh being torn off/ But just my opinion

Yeah, but you need to see the rest of the issue to see how she's fine in two pages with a weird bruise. It's pretty confusing stuff. The only way Peter could tear off someone's flesh like that would rip her whole face off, it wouldn't have the finger marks.

I'm not saying it isn't him doing that, I was just confused by the whole sequence.

And actually, the story was good enough where I didn't dwell on it. Grim Hunt was actually quite good, unlike the current story, OMIT.

Actually, there's no particular reason why he couldn't - the "Mark of Kaine" was always just Kaine's clinging power burning the degeneration scars on his hand into someone's face. [In the same way, his precog visions were his spider-sense dialled up to 11]

Based on the page posted though, I agree with Dev - that is DEFINITELY presented as face-tearing, not burning.

Either I had forgotten (likely) or never knew in the first place (possible) that this was how Kaine's powers worked, but either way, that's pretty cool! It makes perfect sense too. It also explains how Kaine could give the Mark of Kaine to things like wood.

Read the second issue and it's just as good as the first! This is really great stuff--one of the best series that's come out all summer! The art is simply to die for, and the writing is terrific!

This is probably the best "thief" story I've read in the last decade. As good as Bru & Cooke on Catwoman for sure with more crammed into each issue.

THE HOBGOBLIN


Remember what i wrote the other day about Thor and Captain America? Well, here's another one... only I didn't write this. Every so often, somebody at the GCD actually cares about what they're doing (but it's never the editors)...


ASM #289 / Jun'87

Story continues from Spider-Man vs. Wolverine (Marvel, 1987 series) #1; O.K. so this issue reveals that that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds--sort of; After four years of hints, clues and red herrings, somebody had to be under the yellow Goblin mask; Original Hobgoblin creator Roger Stern left the comic without telling anyone his ideas on the true identity of the villain; Tom DeFalco who wrote many of the issues leading up to this revelation had an alleged falling out with editor Jim Owsley and quit the book without providing the identity of who he intended to be Hobgoblin; According to Peter David, he was told to write this unmasking story and Owsley intended for the secret identity of the Hobgoblin to be the Foreigner; This made no sense to David and they tried to hash out who actually COULD be the villain; Ned Leeds became the only viable suspect (and was a fan favorite for the role) but Owsley had already written the Spider-Man Vs. Wolverine one-shot in which Leeds was killed; It was up to Peter David to paint Ned as the culprit posthumously; Fast forward ten years to 1997 which saw original Hobgoblin scribe Roger Stern returning to the character in the Hobgoblin Lives limited series; In this story, he does a little creative rewriting of history (we fan boys call it retroactive continuity) and he reveals that Ned Leeds was simply a brainwashed dupe of the REAL Hobgoblin, narcissistic fashion designer Roderick Kingsley; Ironically, Kingsley is the only person according to the original stories who could NOT have been the Hobgoblin as he was seen on two occasions to be working with the villain and talking to him without his mask; Stern introduced a secret twin brother, Daniel, in Hobgoblin Lives who impersonated Roderick at key moments and made the Kingsly-as-Hobgoblin theory at least mildly plausible; This is Marvel's official version of the Hobgoblin controversy and the convoluted appearance list issue by issue can be seen under the Hobgoblin character profile on Marvel's official site here: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/hobgoblinkingsley.htm; Peter David discusses the story for this issue and the Leeds/Hobgoblin decision here: http://www.peterdavid.net/archives/002234.html.

Another major STEVE DITKO cover upgrade!!!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/spider-man/ASM%20002.jpg





Among other things, I wound up copying the entire cityscape to a separate layer, so I could completely remove ALL color from it-- now it's "pure" gray!

This must have been a pretty simple coloring job for Stan Goldberg. The only complex part-- which has never QUITE been duplicated in reprints-- is the coloring on The Vulture's costume. HOW did he do that? No airbrush, real or in Photoshop. He still boggles my mind, even with something simple like this.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

If you go to the site, you'll also see I finally modified the background on the Ditko cover pages. I still maintained the ASM logo, but as I did with the Romita and Kane runs, I changed the color-- in this case, to more closely match the color on the thumbnails pages. I think it's a big improvement, because that beige was just driving me crazy.

I've also begun to add "compare" pages-- and I've maintained the cover page design for the backgrounds of those!


So far, I've managed to feature (almost) EVERY reprint. I decided to include variations of the original cover as "medium" images-- with multiple side-by-side displays (only ONE "compare" page PER book!!), but any books where the cover is completely different, only included as thumbnails. (Nick Simon suggested this over a year ago, and I figured out how it would really work well.)


And then just tonight, checking the GCD, I was reminded that there's 2 entire runs of reprints I didn't even include on the first 2 Spidey comics, but I have 'em set up for ASM #2. these are the SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS (already set up at the site-- and I forgot about 'em!) and, SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES. My old friend from work, Bill Batcheller, had told me about these-- they were free giveaways inlcuded with certain newspapers-- but I never saw them until tonight. I downloaded all 24 covers from the GCD, but have to do slight clean-ups before I can post them. (And I have to set up another thumbnails page for them... sheesh.)

Each COLLECTIBLE issue reprints half of an issue of ASM. Every other cover is a reprint of an original, the other ones are NEW. This includes a new cover for "The Tinkerer"!



I'd been thinking of doing some more Ditko covers for weeks now. At the moment, too many of them are small, dark & fuzzy! This particular one I was inspired to do now because I'd already set up a so-far UNIQUE "compare" page, where I compared 2 covers featuring different villains with the SAME name-- in this case, "Vulture". The OTHER one was by Dick Ayers. Only when I set up the compare page did I do a double-take-- as there was just TOO MUCH similar between the 2 covers. I wondered-- can this be a coincidence??


Upgrading the SUSPENSE section was tedium. THIS bit was FUN, though!

The upgrade looks incredible! That's a classic example of how skilled Ditko was as a cover artist. As I've said numerous times, he remains the greatest of all Spider-Man artists in my mind.

I had no idea about the other two reprint runs. Interesting they were giveaways with newspapers. I'm fascinated to see what the covers look like! Whenever I see a Marvel Tales cover that is different from ASM, it's a cool feeling--like an issue of Spider-Man I never knew about.

Blast-- I'm such a perfectionist-- late last night I got back to work on that ASM #2 restoration. I really screwed up the LOGO area early-on, because I was in a hurry. It's slowly getting better now. (At the moment, the entire cover looks SHARP, except for the top area, which is slighlty out-of-focus.)


SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS came out in the early 90's, during a period when they stopped doing MASTERWORKS, and before they started doing ESSENTIALS. Each issue reprinted a Ditko comic, but with a new cover.

SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES were giveaways included with Sunday newspapers. Each issue reprinted HALF of a Ditko comic. The first 5 Spidey stories were half-length, after that, I guess they were reprinted as "2-parters".

I've got the one for ASM #1-2 up now, gotta go back and do the ones for AF #15.


My own feeling about reprint collections is, if there are "alternate" covers, they should be included as bonuses. That would include the early-70's covers (many, MANY of them by Gil Kane), the ones mentiuoned above, and any foreign covers or unused / rejected ones. (I saw a foreign reprint of HULK ANNUAL #1 that had a Marie Severin cover on it. The US version had a Steranko cover! The US reprint had Gil Kane. Masterworks should have included ALL 3.)

Someone at another board wondered how many of the 60's cartoons were based on comics...


Only a few stories in the 1st year were adaptations-- "Where Crawls The Lizard" from ASM #6, "Electro, The Human Lightning Bolt" from ASM #9, "The Menace Of Mysterio" from ASM #13 (my favorite of the entire series, and I feel, better than the comic), "Captured By J. Jonah Jameson" from ASM #25, "Never Step On A Scorpion", from both ASM #20 and #29, and "The Terrible Triumph Of Doctor Octopus" from ASM #53. (After that issue's cliffhanger, the cartoon went in a completely different direction.)

The 2nd season, by a completely different studio, did "The Origin Of Spiderman" (his name tended to appear without the hyphen in episode titles) from-- NOT AF #15, but instead, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #1 (1968), and "King Pinned" from ASM #51.

The 3rd season-- whose shorter episodes MAY have started out as unfinished leftovers from the earlier studio (just my own speculation), included "The Big Brainwasher" from ASM #59, 69 and 52 (I'm not making this up!) and "The Madness Of Mysterio" from ASM #66-67.


However, after decades of watching the shows over and over, and re-reading the Ditko run, I came to the conclusion that some of the 2nd season were VERY LOOSELY inspired by some of the comics, but with so many changes it took me this long to even recognize the source material. This includes "Swing City" from ASM #3 (The Master Technician's motives in taking over the power plant are identical to those of Doc Ock's) mixed with TALES OF SUSPENSE #90 (A Cap-Red Skull story involving lifting Manhattan into the air), and "Pardo Presents" from ASM #16 (the plot involves hypnotizing an audience and robbing them; both villains' costumes have similar color schemes) and ASM #30 ("The Claws Of The Cat" involves a cat-burglar and a rooftop battle around a water-tower).

I also have a suspicion that "Neptune's Nose Cone"-- Spidey at the South Pole where he finds a primitive jungle (but no Ka-Zar), may have inspired Roy & Gil's ASM #103-104.


Oh yeah-- and while I spent decades thinking "Menace From The Bottom Of The World" was a demented remake of FF #31 (and the 1967 cartoon based on it), it turns out to actually have been an adaptation of "One Of Our Skyscrapers Is Missing" from ADVENTURES OF THE FLY #2! (Makes me think Kirby was paying tribute to the earlier Joe Simon-Al Williamson comic story.)

Some thoughts I just posted at another board...


I tend to think that in any hero's life, ONE great tragedy is enough, to serve as a springboard to turn a "normal guy" into something more. Uncle Ben was that tragedy. The last thing Peter wanted was a repeat of that. Hence his total focus on May in ASM #31 (screw the self-serving idiots who couldn't see he had something on his mind) and his "rampage" in ASM #32. It wasn't beating Ock that counted (in fact, Ock escaped). It was saving May. He did! And I LOVED the scene, after, when Pete STANDS UP to Jameson and you can see he no longer intends to put up with his S*** anymore. Even Jameson realizes something changed.

And THAT is a very big problem, if you continue reading past where Ditko left. I initially came to SPIDER-MAN via the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons. Those 20 episodes show a much more relaxed, fun-loving hero than Ditko portrayed-- but now that you mention it, he may very well be the kind Ditko might have done had Pete continued to evolve.

Instead, on the one hand you have a "softening" and "nicening up" of a number of the supporting cast (some of whom were borderline scum before this-- I simply cannot believe Flash ever "grew up" when I read Ditko's stories), and on the other, a Peter who continually, repeatedly, has self-doubts, doubts about other people, puts up with harrassment and abuse from others (especially Jameson), and just seems incapable of ever being happy.

I'm dumbfounded that so many readers over the years seem to accept this as normal, and somehow ENJOY it, even INSIST on it. it got worse when Gil Kane got on the book (twice), and it somehow continued to get worse with Ross Andru, etc. etc. etc. Spider-Man is the only series I can recall where I got FED UP with it and quit buying it... THREE times over the years. After the third time, that was it. I have never picked up a current issue in ages now.


I've read very few QUESTION stories by Ditko, but it struck me that Vic Sage looked a LOT like I imagine Peter would when he "grew up". Meanwhile, and this somehow completely slipped my notice, someone else pointed out that Ted Kord ALSO resembled a grown-up Peter to an extent. The thought being, Sage was like Peter if he'd stayed in journalism, Kord if he'd followed a career in science.

Looking back, I'd have liked to have seen Ditko continue on Spidey... IF he could have avoided all that "objectivism" CRAP.


Imagine if Ditko had written & pencilled Spidey... and John Romita had INKED it! When he left DC, Romita told Stan all he really wanted to do was ink. But Stan wouldn't have it. I sometimes wonder what kind of editor Stan might have been if comics were run like a REAL business... and creators OWNED the characters, instead of the publisher.

I've read most of the interviewws with Joey Q about OMIT. Nice guy...

Essentially throws JMS under the bus for the way OMD happened...saying that he and others had to essentially rewrite issue 4 of OMD to salvage the BND idea. How about the fact that you are the EIC and should have known what was happening...instead of waiting unti three issues in to say that things went completely wrong.

Then he claims that he did OMIT as his fulfillment of a promise to the fans to explain what happened. And lo and behold, in the process, admits that he so cleverly wiped OMD from continuity. He had to come in and save Peter from what JMS did...yet he still went along with it in the beginning.

I'm sure that it had nothing to do with the fact that they had really screwed up with how they undid the marraige. Mephisto getting Peter to strike a deal??? That was the best you could come up with at the time?

I won't even get into whhat I have heard is the "now" reason for them not getting married...some random thug beaning him with a cinder block...from any distance? Spidey sense? Reflexes? Been thrown through walls by super powered villians before...yet one cinderr block makes all the difference? Sorry, said I wasn't going to go there.

Face facts true believers...Joey annd JMS screwed the pooch with Spidey. Not taking into account the other debacles that JMS put out during his run...Gwen and Norman...WTF?!?!?!?!

This was his best attempt at fixingthings...a cinder block to the head of a hero that has faced sooooo much worse than that over the years.

And people wonder why I say I love Spider-Man, but refuse to read his book. It may be some of the best stories to come along in years...but it's all based on really sad, pathetic storytelling.

Thank the Lord for the Essentials.

Oh yeah...one more thing.

MJ is the one to outsart and outwit Mephisto into never being involved with the situation to begin with...?

I like MJ as much as any comic character...but outsmarting the Devil? She was never that smart from what I've read. Not slamming her or calling her dumb...just saying that I do not see her as the type to figure out a way to outsmart the devil in a couple panels of time.

Fascinating comments Prof! Especially the part on Ted Kord and Vic Sage and how they could easily have been a grown-up Peter Parker, especially post ASM #33. I actually can't wait to tell my Dad your thoughts, he'll really be interested.

Dev, I just finished OMIT today. A lot of the criticisms you've mentioned and you'll see online are pretty fair. The story read more like a bullet-point guideline on what the continuity now looks like. It easily could have been Joe Q listing this in a powerpoint to the fans.

Am I glad the Mephisto nonsense is erased from continuity. Sure! It should never have been there in the first place though. Mucking with the continuity is never good and re-mucking to fix it has never really worked (re: DC post-crisis). I hope this is the final chapter of this bad dream.

Regarding JMS & Joe Q on the Gwen/Norman relationship, I've read several accounts that this was all Joe Q and not JMS really much at all. Therefore, I reserve my ire for Joe Q and am letting JMS off the hook. *That* retcon is something I am much more mad about that anything else, including the marriage resolution.

The actual OMIT story itself, in which a regular guy is the reason Spidey doesn't marry Mary Jane is done to point out how the everyday normal aspects of being Spider-Man could interfere with Spidey's personal life. So it's definitely on purpose that is isn't a super-villain or something more epic or grandiose than a regular guy. Whether it succeeds as a story is up to the reader--I'm quite sure you would hate it (the execution in story, not the idea, which you quite clearly already hate ). Personally, I thought it wasn't that offensive, but it's not exactly the greatest thing I've ever read.

Was OMIT as awful as Brand New Day? No. Would I recommend anyone spend their hard-earned money on it? No.

Great art though (except the Joe Q parts, whose art actually isn't a style I ever liked, before he became the controversial editor in chief he is now).

I cannot hate it per se...as I will never read through the entire thing. Fair or not. I am going off of a lot of different things. What I saw flipping through the books, pages I have seen onlines and more reviews than I can shake a stick at...and especially the interview with Joe himself.

I think it's really low of him to throw JMS under the bus like that...then say (and I'm paraphrasing) "oh, but it really falls to me..."

Sorry if I seem a bit more vicious about this whole thing than I probably am, I just really feel disheartened about what they did to a great character.

I hear ya! I may not feel as angry toward this as you, but it still is annoying (and you know certain other things can send me into a fury).

"One More Day" is a contender for worst Spider-Man story of all time. It's unforgivable.

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #2 (May'63)

I probably spent WAY more time on this restoration than was called for, but as far as I'm concerned, it's done. If you go to the site, not only can you see the upgraded image, you can also check out the "Amazing" compare page. Yes-- EVERY reprint of this comic than I know of (at least in the US) is on display, all on one page!




By the way, I love the subtle color shading on The Vulture's costume. I look at something like that, and I wonder... HOW did Stan Goldberg DO that???

Considering what I know about the complex, confusing processes by which art got colored (engraved, separated, printed)... I'm sure glad with digital coloring & printing, I'll NEVER have to worry about this sort of thing.


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

Great work.

MARV AND THE MAN-WOLF

(more ramblings I posted at another board...)


I seem to recall that there was a general feeling when Marv took over to try and "freshen up" the book, as there was a general feeling that Len had been marking time for his entire 3 years on the book. My impression always was that Len had ONE big story in mind when he got on, and spread it out over 3 whole years. And during that time, Mike Esposito really let the quality of his inks go TO HELL, so the art looked AWFUL. I was informed by someone who worked for Marvel at the time that one of the editors (or maybe Stan himself) called Mike out on it, told him to clean up his act. You can see during the "3rd Green Goblin" story how much BETTER Esposito's inks looked than they had for several years by then. This continued for at least a year, before he started ot let is slide again.

But after Marv took over, he started getting other artists on the book, including Pollard, Starlin, Byrne, I suppose to shake things up a bit. I see Bob McLeod inked a couple issues around that time, including the Starlin one. MAN, did that look good! (I've long considered McLeod one of the BEST inkers in the biz.) If my index is right, after Andru left, almost every penciller who worked for Marv was doing layouts, the inkers were doing "finishes". Maybe that helped inspire those guys to just knock themselves out and do better, more inspired work?

Marv also started to shake up the overall "story", by finally having Pete graduate college (longest 4 years in college history, hmm?), but be missing some classes and so need to do make-up in order to get his diploma. He also had that LONG-standing "suspected of murder" thing cleared up. I was never quite sure if that was supposed to be over Gwen Stacy or Captain Stacy, but enough was enough. He also showed what happened to Man-Wolf after his MARVEL TEAM-UP appearance (and if I recall rightly, the finale of his trip to the moon had NOT yet been published-- it finally showed up not long after, in MARVEL PREMIERE-- one of the GOOD things Jim Shooter did early in his run as EIC, cleaning up loose ends and getting out unpublished stories like that).

And then of course you had the death of Aunt May... (Really? NOT really? Hmm...)

from the MASTERWORKS solicitation page:

"Norman Osborn’s memory has returned. The Green Goblin is back. Gwen Stacy is missing. And it will all lead to a confrontation atop the George Washington Bridge whose aftermath will leave Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, forever changed."

I hate to point this out, but, what one single word balloon said INCORRECTLY notwithstanding (hey, the guy HAD THE FLU!!!)...


It was THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE, fer cryin' out loud!!!!!

I always found this debate so fascinating when I was a kid because people were so sure of themselves. Back then, I just went with the GW Bridge side because they said it in the story.

Now that I spend quite a lot of time in Manhattan for work, I agree that it is 100% the Brooklyn Bridge!

I've talked about it before in this thread, but I'll reiterate I totally agree with what you're saying Prof. Marv's run has a real sense of "moving things forward" on almost all levels and it's a welcome point when you read the entire run of Spider-Man. So many subplots continued from Gerry and even the Silver Age are finally tied up. Such as Spidey wanted for 2 murders: Captain Stacy and Norman Osborn (you actually learn in a one sentence off-comment by D.A. Tower that Spidey was cleared of Osborn's death months ago off-panel).

The artwork changes in a big way too after Ross Andru like you mention. Something else else also noteworthy is some point during Marv's run, the paper improved. It's quite noticable and makes for a shinier, nicer finish.

You mention a few artists that Marv brought on and one who is highly underrated from that era if Keith Pollard. He did some great work on Thor, Spider-Man and elsewhere and I wonder what he's up to today? He was never my favorite, in that he stood out among the rest, but when I reread the old issues, I always enjoy seeing his artwork. (And he had a great signature on his cover pages that stood out).

Keith Polard's output over the years surprised me, when you consider how he started out. Like George Perez, Pollard & Arvell Jones were assistants' of Rich Buckler. I believe I first saw both Jones & Pollard together on IRON MAN late in Mike Friedrich's run, when they replaced George Tuska, who took a long break after 2 different runs on the book. Fan reaction was universally negative. Pollard disappeared and Jones finished out a few issues by himself, but not before blowing deadlines so bad it required 2 separate "inventory" stories (by Mantlo, Tuska & Colletta) and a "deadline doom reprint" (by Goodwin, Tuska & Craig). I'd have to check, but it seems Jones drew 3 issues of IRON FIST around the same time, with at leats 3 different inkers, all of them bad, the last one the worst (Aubrey Bradford, at the time, got my vote for WORST inker in Marvel history... I ran into him at a convention 20 years later, he'd gotten a LOT better!)

And then there was Don McGregor's tragic run on POWER MAN. After one issue of a 3-parter drawn by Tuska, part 2 was done by Buckler, Jones AND Pollard. (Part 3 by Sal Buscema & "The Crusty Bunkers"-- can you say "editorial CHAOS"??)

McGregor's run of BLACK PANTHER also had a sad ending. After he lost Billy Graham to the theatre (he'd decided to focus on his acting career for awhile), Rich Buckler returned to the book. And promptly BLEW the deadlin on hbis 2nd issue. It was so late, after a deadline doom reprint (of a DAREDEVIL story guest-starring the Panther), they got Keith Pollard to RE-PENCIL the entire issue, AND, ink it! And then 4 weeks later, Jack Kirby's completely unrelated story hit the stands... what a slap in the face! (When I found out Buckler had actually pencilled the entire episode-- his pages remain unpublished-- I began to think someone should get him & McGregor back together to FINISH that storyline the way Don had originally intended it. Hey, if Craig Russell could draw the same DR. STRANGE story twice, why not publish an "alternate" version of the "KLAN" story?)


So when I think of how Pollard pulled himself up with those runs of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR (2 different runs of FF, if I recall), fill-ins for George Perez on JLA, a SILVER SURFER graphic novel (which he inked himself, showing just how slicker his inks had become over the years), it's pretty amazing. What's he doing these days? that's a question that could apply to MOST artists I grew up with or followed for decades after.

Incidentally, one thing that really separated Perez & Pollard was how much DETAIL they'd put into their pencils. On the FF, Joe Sinnott supposedly once asked Perez, "Hey, leave something for ME to do!" Pollard, meanwhile, was so "loose", Sinnott wound up doing the BULK of the work. So, when Sinnott missed an issue... OH MAN, WAS IT BAD!


Meanwhile, Arvell Jones surprised me when he jumped over to DC. I saw him on an issue of SUPER-TEAM FAMILY (talk about an awkward name for a magazine), then a run of ALL-STAR SQUADRON severl years later. His art had improved so much since his Marvel days, it was hard to believe it was the same guy!

Just posted at the Spidey-Jazz group... enjoy!




Fun as this is, and I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but certain episode information listed online is INCORRECT.


The main one is this... the 1st season, there were 19 episodes.


The 2nd season, there were 20 episodes.


The 2nd season, the 1st episode was the LAST show produced by Grantray-Lawrence.


The 2nd WEEK, the Krantz Films episodes began with "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN"







I know this is NUTS, but I was there! My habit was to watch every episode of one show, then, when the reruns began, switch to the other network. I recall very clearly the last new show of the 1st year had the returning villains, "TO CATCH A SPIDER" (Dr. Noah Boddy, Electro, Green Goblin & Vulture) and "DOUBLE IDENTITY" (Charles Cameo). The next week was a rerun of the Doc Ock story, so (crazy as it sounds), I switched over and started watching ARCHIE. When I'd seen every ARCHIE episode that year, I switched back to Spidey reruns.


The networks were VERY regular about starting the new seasons all the same week back then. Not like the chaos you have nowadays. The 2nd season opened with "STING OF THE SCORPION" (a new story as the previous story had actually been a combined adaptation of BOTH Ditko Scorpion stories), and "TRICK OR TREACHERY" (the Human Flys). I've seen the airdate for this listed as sometimes back in January or so, but THAT'S WRONG. This did NOT debut until Sep'68. TRUST me on this!!


At the end of the show, they added the completely different "coming attraction" thing which, instead of featuring clips of next week, featured clips of many earlier episodes. I got bored with that REAL fast.


The 2nd week, I got a shock when "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN" aired. It was my very 1st exposure to Spidey's origin. But that wasn't it. The entire look and feel of the show had COMPLETELY changed. WTF was this??? I figured, hey, maybe it was a one-time thing. NO IT WASN'T. Not only had the entire style changed (despite reusing lots of old animation, music, and the same voices), with "KING PINNED" the "flashback" (so to speak) continued, as it followed immediately after the origin! WHAT WERE THEY DOING???


This has understandably caused a lot of confusion among younger fans over the decades who weren't there, who mistake the 2nd season for the 1st. In the long run, continuity was shot to pieces on that show, and it's probably better to just figure (like many of the TARZAN films whenever they recast the part) that the seasons are "different versions" of the same character, and that they don't take place in the same "universe".


About halfway thru the 2nd season, I was about ready to give up on the show. I kept hoping, somehow, maybe, that the "old" style would return. It wasn't until more than a decade later I read that Grantray-Lawrence had GONE BANKRUPT after only finishing ONE episode for the 2nd season. Krantz Films, the distributor, had already been paid for the 2nd season-- and the owner WASN'T gonna give the money back! So he hired Ralph Bakshi to set up a new studio in New York City (he'd already been working for Krantz in Canada doing the 2nd season of ROCKET ROBIN HOOD), and for next-to-no money, produced the 2nd season of SPIDER-MAN simultaneously with the 3rd season of ROCKET ROBIN HOOD.


Incidentally, something I was reminded of at a fan site... about halfway thru season 2, they ran the short "remake" cartoon, "RHINO". I had completely forgotten about this for decades, until I saw it listed with an air date around Dec'68. And then I remembered. I was completely flabbergasted as a kid. An entirte 10-minute cartoon made up of nothing but reused bits of 2 previous stories. ABSURD. but that wasn't the worst of it. NO! When it was over, they went to commercial break...






...and NEVER CAME BACK. They actually ran OVER 15 MINUTES of commercials!!! That was too much, even for me. Whatever was on the next week, I didn't even bother tuning in.




When the show went into syndication, "RHINO" was coupled with "THE MADNESS OF MYSTERIO". It took me ages, but I figured out "MADNESS" was probably started by Grantray-Lawrence over a year before it aired, and abandoned when they went belly-up. Why do I say this? Because of the dialogue. In one scene, Spidey calls Mysterio "BOWL-HEAD". But Gray Morrow had completely redesigned Mysterio. He wasn't wearing the bowl anymore!

As the BND era comes to a close, ASM is having a 5 part storyline by Mark Waid and Paul Azaceta entitled "Origin of Species". I've got to say--I'm really disliking this storyline quite a bit!

Previously, I thought the Grim Hunt was rather good (and think Dev and others who got the scoop online but didn't read it were misinformed) and thought OMIT wasn't great but wasn't anything offensive. Here, however, I'm really finding this storyline to be a huge waste of 5 entire issues.

The premise sounds like it could be okay in a Maximum Carnage summer blockbuster way, but it could easily go all wrong, which it has. The problem is basically every one of Spidey's enemies are after him which lessens the impact of each one--I hate when writers do that, and Waid seems to be guilty of it often.

The actual reasoning for it is a bit disgusting though, as it involves a newborn baby being hunted by Doc Ock and others. It's a bit much.

While the story-telling execution is pretty good (each single issue ends with a big "oh shit" moment), the story itself, in terms of plot and what actually happens, is kind of putting me off.

Compiling my annoyance is the art by Paul Azaceta, which I'm finding completely unappealing. So far I've loved almost every artist on ASM in this era but here, I think is the one time where I actually am hating it. He makes the villains seem lame; Spidey seems awkward; and worst of all, a lot of it just looks ugly and gross. I'm really not digging it at all.

So, all in all, it's a shame this era is ending on this note. I read parts 1-4 (of 5) today in one sitting and IMO, this may be the worst story so far.

>looks at dead horse in the corner<

nah...

Trust me, never read this story! You'll never pick up a Spider-Man story again!

THing is, to me...this just shows that it keeps getting worse.

Cobalt Kid wrote:
"every one of Spidey's enemies are after him which lessens the impact of each one--I hate when writers do that, and Waid seems to be guilty of it often"


This gimmick only worked ONCE!!!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/fantasticfour/FF%20A03.jpg

I won't be reading it...and I''ll always have my Essentials.

"You'll never pick up a Spider-Man story again!"

I haven't read a new Spider-Man story since Steve Rude did his 3-issue mini-series. That was so GOOD... it made me realize that EVEN Roger Stern's runs sucked by comparison. Which made me realize just HOW BAD Spider-Man had been for so terribly long... (Of course, when it comes down to it, a LOT of comic-book characters have been living off their reputations for DECADES.)

Ugh! Another stunt. It ain't hookin' me.

Agreed. Lame.

So let me get this straight:

1. They're doing this highly-promoted "Big Time" relaunch.
2. Then they're doing a highly-promoted "point 1 jumping-on point" thing within a couple of months
3. Then they're doing a highly-promoted fake-kill stunt (what, again?) within a couple of months?

Sales must be tanking...

I haven't bought a Spidey comic in over ten years. I only WISH there was some way I could buy EVEN FEWER of them.

: D

It\'s an Ultimate Spider-Man thing , not a regular series thing.

Since I collect that too, I'm still affected, but it actually sounds like a better premise for USM.

So, let me get this straight...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Phil Urich has beheaded the Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley)</span></span>

Why? what is the point of doing that to that character? I actually liked the series he was in and thought it was a nice twist on a dragged through the mud concept.

Oh well...they just keep draggin this comic deeper into the mire.

I'm not a prude by any stretch of the imagination, but would it kill Marvel to keep their premier super hero with a comic that is acceptable for all ages? Sorry, putting out another version for young children basically retelling stories from close to 60 years ago does not count.

Spidey is loved by all ages, but I do not feel comfortable handing a comic with graphic violence and straight talk anout Peter's sex life to my 10 year old.

Anywho...thank God for the Essential volumes.

So I caught up on some recent Spider-Man issues for the ‘Big Time’ kick-off of a new era, headed by Dan Slott. I’ll come right out and say, while I was initially impressed by Slott years ago, I’ve come to expect his work to be really some of the worst stuff going on at Marvel comics. Certainly he was what I thought the worst of the Web-Heads (group of Spidey writers during the last few years). That being said, he can sometimes have really great moments.

At the end of the day, so much of what Slott is doing is just fantastic. I was surprised by how really great his story-telling was, and the various things he was doing (which I’ll get to). But then there is just one thing that I hate SO MUCH—actually wanted to throw my comic against the wall—that at the end of the day, I don’t care how much good was in there. I’m pretty disappointed. And that bad thing is what Dev spoils above (I’ll get to that too).

For the artwork, the opening issues are by Humberto Ramos, who is an artist I’ve never really enjoyed. I first saw him on Impulse, where his artwork seemed to be a great fit but as issues went on even then, he was getting more and more out of control with his crazy dynamics. By the time he did his first run of Spider-Man stories, I was already not a fan at all. I really don’t think he’s a bad artist—it’s just his style isn’t my cup of tea. The manga-esque style is too over the top and takes things just a few hairs too far for me. But if someone told me they were a huge Ramos fan, I could understand why.

Getting back to Slott and the story. He does several things that I think are really great and an improvement in moving the book forward. Spoilers abound:
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- he gives Peter a new job at long last that references Peter’s intelligence, as well as his academic history. FINALLY. Peter Parker is not a permanent photographer for the Daily Bugle. Spidey creators and fans who think that should be marched across the front lawn and shot. That was only ever something to hold him over until he could capitalize on his intelligence. I’m glad to see that established. I don’t mind if he makes a little cash on the side doing some photography for the Bugle, but it shouldn’t be his main occupation.

- He gives Spider-Man several new supporting characters, which is something that should constantly be happening. There needs to be a constant balance of maintaining the old supporting cast while introducing new characters.

- There is a heavy focus in science-fiction to balance the crime-fiction; this is a necessary balance for Spider-Man.

- Marla Jameson is back—though it kind of goes along with Slott’s typical “peeling back all the changes to the status quo” mentality, I like Marla, so I appreciate her presence.

- The Bugle remains an important part, particularly Robbie and Norah. They reintroduce Phil Urich which at first I was happy about. One thing Slott casually does though is change “Front Line” to the “Daily Bugle”. I knew this would happen eventually, and I knew it would be Slott. I’ve been expecting it so long that I’m not really feeling one way or another about it, but critics of Slott’s bad habits can certainly use this.

- The action is exciting and each issue so far contains a strong dose of it. Very important for Spidey.

So, all in all, it seemed like a great start. And my all-time favorite villain, the original Hobgoblin was returning, and they were actually going to reference it being Kingsley, explaining where he’s been. I was thrilled. And then…

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Slott goes and kills Kingsley! WTF?!!! I’m hoping beyond hope this is some sort of bait & switch a la Foggy Nelson by Bru in Daredevil, but I don’t think Slott is talented enough to even pull that off. Why in the world would he kill off the best Spider-Man villain since the Silver Age? Hobgoblin was finally restored to greatness by Stern in the mid 90’s, and then had a nice cooling off period for the last 15 years. He was primed and ready to go!

We already had a fake-Hobgoblin in Macendale and all that came of it was the Hobgoblin eventually becoming a bit of a joke villain to be bashed around every so often until they made him part demon just to be interesting. Having yet another fake Hobgoblin (now the third—something I hate that DC and Marvel do, creating multiple versions of the same villain) will only result in the same thing.

This is either a stupid, horrible decision, or it’s a bait & switch, which is still a huge pain in the ass for the readers. </span></span>

So, all in all, things were going really well but then something annoying on a big level ruined it. What’s funny is the dissolution of Pete & MJ’s marriage didn’t really bother me as much as others, and the way he got his secret identity back actually was a good thing IMO. But the recent resurrection of Kraven and now what’s happened to the Hobgoblin bother me in a HUGE way.

Ooh boy, here we go again. Another Spider-Man run where every time there is good, there is a lot of bad to go with it.

"finally returned to greatness by Stern in the mid 90's"


I'd QUIT buying all Marvels entirely by then. THAT mini-series was what got me to give Marvel another look. Eventually, I regretted doing so, but, that mini remains a good thing.


And yet, I've seen comments online from fans who think that mini was uncalled-for and terribly misguided. Sheesh.

Slott was best on the books he really wanted to write, like SHE-HULK, THE THING and GREAT LAKES AVENGERS. Those are all solid gold.

I was surprised when my large pile of Spider-Man comics only had one recent issue of Spidey, and remembered the series is now bi-weekly instead of thrice-monthly. As of yet that has no effect on my enjoyment of the series but we’ll see how that goes (whether good or bad).

Again, I’m conflicted on the entire thing: on the one hand, this is definitely the best writing Slott has done sine She-Hulk, and perhaps ever, for Marvel. He’s firing on all cylinders, and nailing all the facets of what makes Spider-Man good: large supporting cast, lots of subplots, action & adventure every issue, some humor but not over the top, personal drama, etc. And yet, I can’t get over the fact that the real Hobgoblin has been killed and replaced by Phil Urich of all people. It’s too much for me to give even the best story a pass.

Yet, I am still hopeful that perhaps I’m jumping the gun. Knowing Slott likes to play the bait & switch game, which he did over and over in She-Hulk and elsewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Kingsley after all. Or something along those lines. As juvenile as it sounds, that would actually assuage all my anger.

I’m glad to see Smythe reappear here, a character with a long Spidey history. I’m not sure I like the idea of Smythe being a strait-up super-villain (if that is the case), but I realize they were already heading this way in the 90’s and basically ever since the son was introduced after Spencer died in the 80’s. His appearance also serves to create an in-story reason for the Scorpion to be the Scorpion again instead of Venom, and I appreciate Slott’s knowledge of Spidey’s history to make it plausible.

The new spider-costume was entirely unnecessary and I found it boring.

I’ve also decided now that Peter is ‘with’ Carlie Cooper that I’m anxious to see a new love interest in his life. I’m fickle like that. Carlie ain’t no MJ and ain’t no Gwen; she’s more of a transition girlfriend in my eyes, like Deb Whitman.

Debra Whitman? AAAAAUGH!!!!!

I heard PAD brought Deb back in his Friendly Neighborhood run. How'd that run treat her, Des?

Terrible

It was one of several reasons I was very annoyed with PAD on that run.

Well....?

Way back, it was like a toss-up for me who was more annoying-- Deborah or Marcy. Of course, Marcy was like "Libby" on SABRINA, so I guess it was really no contest. He shouldn't have been involved in any way with either of them, though.

My laptop has a virus and pc is in the babys room so I'm posting from my phone--will give you a real reply from work.

That's why I've been largely absent at nights this month!

I remember posting about here in this thread before though (I think?)...will have to check!

I think this was as far as you ever got with Deb and FNSM: And just what IS the PC doing in the baby's room, anyway? Are ya THAT cramped for space in the condo? And don't bother explaining how the laptop got the virus....we know.

It *is* that tight! With the baby having his own room now, we are really pressed for space, even though we’re considering moving the desk / PC to our room. We’re actually repainting the entire condo right now and then moving on to some new jobs (new floors thanks to Pickles ‘tear up the rug’ puppy phase). Our goal is to have it ready to sell by year end and then buy a house! We’re excited but realize it’s a lot of work (plus, this time we’ll be selling *and* buying instead of just buying).

Meanwhile, back to PAD’s FNSM run, which you’ll recall jaded me enough where in a way it bumped PAD out of my mind as a quintessential Spider-Man writer. You correctly pointed out that he was under a lot of editorial pressure focusing him towards certain types of stories he probably didn’t want to do. Some things, however, were pretty annoying nonetheless and entirely PAD, since I know his writing style pretty well.

One of them was Deb Whitman. Now she’s not my favorite character (in fact, probably my single least favorite girlfriend of Peter’s), but I love Spidey’s past and don’t like when characters are written entirely wrong, which she was here. Basically, during this time Peter was revealed as Spider-Man in Civil War. Deb then wrote a tell-all book about her relationship with Peter years earlier. It’s a very ‘in the now’ type story, which PAD loves doing, but it’s totally out of character for Deb. Deb was a bit crazy (and a lot wasn’t her fault since she thought she was crazy because she thought Pete was Spidey and Pete made her think that was a crazy idea), but she was always a good person. She was not the type of person who would do that. The plotline—and PAD’s actual scenes where he wrote Deb—were bad enough for me to take a step back and realize that many of PAD’s detractors, who claim PAD is willing to ignore decades of characterization to shoehorn characters into his “hot topic of the moment” maybe aren’t all that wrong. I never read Richtor and Shatterstar before his current X-Factor, so I have no idea about whether they are gay is against their prior characterization, but I can’t help but feel those who claim that may be correct; and that is because of Evidence A: Deb Whitman.

Also, he totally got Flash Thompson all wrong, which he should have known better. Flash has been written poorly but many writers over the decades, who ignore how he matured (in the freaking 70’s, so c’mon); PAD knows this but wrote him overly jerkish anyway. He basically turned Peter & Flash into opposing high school teachers (gym versus science), as if it was a sitcom on television. I thought it was pretty bad.

But I don’t want to bash PAD entirely—you know full well I love a lot of his work and realize not every writer gets it right every time.

Deb Whitman, like Marcy, come from a brief era in Spider-Man history that is interesting to me because it kind of had Peter off in another direction for awhile (his Grad School phase). Since I never read those stories when they came out, being either not born or 2 years old, by the time I read them, I knew full well Deb’s period as Peter’s girlfriend was brief, so that made it even better—I could be interested in her, but not get disheartened by the fact that she was very wrong for Pete. Still though, I HATE when a character like that is brought back and shoehorned into whatever plotline causes the lead character grief.

"Also, he totally got Flash Thompson all wrong, which he should have known better. Flash has been written poorly but many writers over the decades, who ignore how he matured (in the freaking 70’s, so c’mon); PAD knows this but wrote him overly jerkish anyway. He basically turned Peter & Flash into opposing high school teachers (gym versus science), as if it was a sitcom on television. I thought it was pretty bad."

I get VERY mixed vibes about Flash. He started to mature by the time he left college for the army. (Did that actually make sense? If you're in college, didn't that let you out of the draft?) After, he seemed to mature more, then more still during the Conway-Andru period. But I've heard such HORRIFIC things about stories with him done decades later. And of course, when I read Ditko's run, my feeling is-- "NO WAY is this SCUM ever gonna grow up into anything else." So I see at least 3 completely contradictory depictions of him! Romita's seems okay, UNTIL you go back and re-read Ditko, then you realize... "WTF?????" It's like a soap-opera that recast an actor. Or something.


The high school sitcom scenario sounds scary.


"Deb Whitman, like Marcy, come from a brief era in Spider-Man history that is interesting to me because it kind of had Peter off in another direction for awhile (his Grad School phase). Since I never read those stories when they came out, being either not born or 2 years old, by the time I read them, I knew full well Deb’s period as Peter’s girlfriend was brief, so that made it even better—I could be interested in her, but not get disheartened by the fact that she was very wrong for Pete. Still though, I HATE when a character like that is brought back and shoehorned into whatever plotline causes the lead character grief."

I did read those when they came out (Bill Mantlo SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, wasn't it?). My feeling was always, dull, nervous, not very outgoing... MIGHT have been okay for the original, high school Peter, but not the way he's been since. MIGHT have been okay as a casual friend, but not someone to get "SERIOUS" about. And somehow, it seemed to get "serious". And then, it got DEMENTED. I didn't care for her going off the deep end suspecting things about him, but his LYING all the time and continuing to do so made it worse. (Please keep in mind, I haven't read these since they came out, I'm going on memories from 35 years ago!) The "resolution" seemed a dirty trick, even though it worked out for the best. It didn't make Pete look all that good in my eyes.


What you're describing about a "tell-all" book sounds like it could only have happened if she had a COMPLETE change in personality, or if someone else talked her into it, and she did it under duress, questioning the whole time, "Is this right? Should I be doing this?"


I suppose the problem is, with any corporate-owned characters, they're gonna go on and on and ON, and the longer they go on, the more chance they're gonna go WRONG. And every time something goes "wrong", it's permanently part of the ongoing history, which only makes it worse... unless someone pulls a "Twilight Zone" time-altering type story to change history, and THAT usually just makes things EVEN WORSE! (Gee, anybody know any of those lately?)

Loathe as I am to even appear to defend Slott (let alone the idea of Evil Phil Urich), what exactly makes Roderick Kingsley "the real Hobgoblin"? Bearing in mind that (a) more than half the original appearances of Hobgoblin I were written with the intention of it being Richard Fisk, (b) in no part of the Stern-written appearances was Kingsley even HINTED at being the Hobgoblin - indeed, it was actively contradicted, with Stern's ultimate "solution" involving a never-ever-mentioned identical twin; (c) Hobby I was ultimately revealed to be Ned Leeds and (d) even in the retconned version, most of the appearances are Leeds, what about RODERICK KINGSLEY as a character makes him a great Hobgoblin?

Remember though, that she was written as near-bankruptcy from healthcare costs (I think for her mum), and utterly desperate for cash.

[And that the last time Peter saw her was him convincing her she was literally off-her-rocker as part of a rather selfish plot to convince her that Spider-Man wasn't Peter Parker. Followed, ultimately, by Spider-Man taking his mask off in public to reveal he was... Peter Parker]

Well, what I really mean is "Hobgoblin I", whether it was Kingsley or Ned. I actually enjoyed the Kingsley revelation quite a bit in the Hobgoblin Lives miniseries, though I would have enjoyed Richard Fisk as well if he hadn't been revealed as the Rose.

But essentially, I don't like the idea of the original Hobgoblin dying. Having thought about your post some more, I think I see him as the Hobgoblin first and then whoever he really is second.

Does that make any sense? Even typing this I'm having a hard time saying what I mean.

As for PAD/Deb, I had forgotten that was her motivation. I'm glad she at least had a motive.(Still don't like the usage of character and actual delivery of the plotline but I'm glad there was some backing to it all).

PS - any post where Reboot must relunctantly plays devil's advocate for Dan Slott makes my day.

I keep forgetting... WHY did Roger Stern leave the book when he did, BEFORE revealing Hobgoblin's identity? His leaving just then caused more troubles than I can count.

Sure - you're trying very hard to say "Hobgoblin I is a completely personality-less cypher with no distinctive features not covered better by other characters, but I like him anyway" while trying not to admit to things like "completely personality-less cypher".

This is one occasion where I'm glad you're unable to spell/implement grammar correctly!

Well, in those Stern and DeFalco stories, the Hobgoblin had a very clear personality, and had more characterization than either Kingsley or Fisk (not as much as Ned of course who had a good 15 years of appearances prior).

So in my mind, the original Hobgoblin is a more clearly defined character than Kingsley by a longshot. Richard Fisk has subsequently developed into something else all together.

It's that original Hobgoblin, whose thought bubbles we could read as he first became aware of the Goblin legacy, gradually grew into his role as Spidey's new nemisis and eventually succumbed to madness, that I really want to see.

Those stories gave him a distinct flavor that many super-villains lack and Macendale could never compare to.

The latest restoration, I'm afraid, gets my vote for one of the WORST covers I'm putting up at the site. Not only is the art AND design awful, the dialogue makes the X-Men seem like bad guys...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/x-men/MTU%20004.jpg

I love how Scott is still such a square, dressed like he used to in the early 60's.

Review: Amazing Spider-Man #650

So when "Big Time" was launched, I decided this was the point where I'd give Spedey another go. My reservations about the BND era were that the series was published thrice-monthly and that the writers would change arc-to-arc, the latter of which spelled inconsistency to me. I was never all that riled up about the anullment of the marriage, but investing that much money in what was guaranteed to be a mixed bag meant I wasn't gonna risk it.

"Big Time" promised to address those issues with 1) One writer, Dan Slott (whose stuff I enjoyed on Mighty Avengers (sorry, Cobie ), a reduction to a twice-monthly schedule & 3) though $3.99, each issue having extra pages to help justify the expense. Though not on my pull list, I resolved to give it a chance as I truly love the character and have missed getting my fix.

Well, so far, so good! 650 in particular shows the potential that this run under Slott has, having improved on the prior opening stories in 648 & 649. Nothing truly monumental occurs (the new costume on the cover is explained as Peter having it for pure functionality against the current threat he faces in the Hobgoblin), but the book simply reads the way a Spidey comic should! There's a sense of menace to the opponent, but the story moves breezily and there are heaping helpings of humor that make are LOL funny without turning Spidey into a goofy character.

What do I mean about the humor? Well, two things stick out:

1) There's a conversation between Peter, MJ and Carlie in which Dan decides to inject humorous parenthetical substitues in place of more boring explications. For example, Pete says to Carlie, "I've built a harmonic mesh based on Hank Pym's theory of <something MJ wouldn't understand>" And Carlie's reply works in kind and so on. Then MJ gets the last laugh by mentioning something about her work that Pete and Carlie wouldn't recognize.

It's something I wouldn't want to see overused, but I give Slott credit for making a boring expository conversation a real rib-tickler! Plus, who hasn't been a fifth wheel in a conversation between mutual acquaintances where you just kinda check out because you have zero interest or comprehension? Good stuff!

2) There's another scene where Pete has to find an inventive way to hide what he's been up to as Spidey from his new co-workers that's as inventive as it is hilarious! If Slott can be this fresh with humorous situations in this book, I'll be onboard for the duration!

Like Cobie, I'm not a huge fan of Humberto Ramos's exaggerated style. But I have to admit that it works here a lot more often than it doesn't. The facial expressions are mostly spot-on, for one thing. I'm not in love with his new Hobgoblin look, but I have to admit it's less derivative of the classic Green Goblin costume.

The biggest problem I had with his art this issue was the overly sexualized posing with the Black Cat and her scenes. I realize that she's sexy and meant to be so, but I don't think it has to be run to the ground with her contorted unnaturally to give us extra boobage. I dunno, I guess I just like the girl too much to see an artist's overboard attempt to show even more boobage when there's already plenty on display!

Like Cobie, I'd prefer that Slott hadn't killed off Roderick Kingsley. As other posters have pointed out, though, there are flaws in being fans of the Kingsley version when the original was never definitively Kingsley until Sterns Hobgoblin Lives mini. But I would have preferred some follow-up done with him once the mini was put out there. Instead Hobgoblin languished whil Norman Osborne was brought back to the forefront. And when Kingsley finally does get a chance to shine, he's killed off and replaced! Ugh! Anyway, that's my point of view. Like Cobie, I'd prefer that Slott pulled a bait-and-switch at some point, but I'm not optimistic.

In any case, this new Hobgoblin does have some potential. I don't know much about Phil Urich, so I can't opine too much about Slott's choice. I suspect that Slott did this because the old version's history was so convoluted and inconsistent that he felt it was better to start fresh with someone new under the mask. Whether that was the right decision, is up for debate, but I suspect this was Slott's reasoning. So far, my interest is picqued despite some disappointment as a fan of the classic Hobgoblin stories under Stern especially.

Like I said, so far, so good. As someone who loves Spider-Man but has been burned in the past, I'm cautiously optimistic that Spidey may once again have hit the "Big Time"!

Lardy's rating for Amazing Spider-Man #650: 4 Donuts (out of five)!

I'm glad you're reading and enjoying! Despite my vocal annoyance with the Hobgoblin-related plot twists, there has been a lot of good thus far. I'm looking forward to us both checking it out in coming months!

(And my favorite, Marcos Martin, is due for an arc soon on art chores).

Maybe Kingsley ISN'T really dead.


This IS Marvel, after all.


(Norman Osborn, anybody?)

Well, Kingsley's relatively obscure by comparison. (Only fairly hardcore Spidey nerds like us know who he is.) But that hasn't always prevented characters from being brought back in the past. We'll see...

I suspect what happened there was that every other writer realised Stern had pulled a boner . Love him or hate him, Macandale filled a role in Spider-Man's rogues' gallery - he was The Mercenary, the one who fought for himself only to get more power to get more cash.

Kingsley on the other hand... was a poor man's Osborn, a watered-down clone - rich businessman puts on a Goblin suit, but without everything that makes Peter vs. Norman personal.

And Stern made him the Hobgobin again JUST AFTER OSBORN CAME BACK!

[And had him tank to Spider-Man without a fight (what happened to the flesh-melting blaster?). And left everything where Hobgoblin I, to use Cobalt's words, "grew into his role as Spidey's new nemisis and eventually succumbed to madness" as Ned, so there was just a fashion mogul with a hokey twin brother "twist" who hadn't shown up in any role for well over a decade because no writer saw him as worthwhile.]

What chance anyone would bother using Kingsley when they could use Norman, really?

You know, even though I applauded Roger coming back and 'cleaning up' the Hobgoblin Saga by having him as Kingsley, I still kind of always see Hobgoblin as Ned Leeds because that's how I always saw him as a kid when I reread those stories dozens of times. I see him as a very distinct personality that 'trumps' the Kingsley personality.

I can see your point, 'Boot, that by having the Hobgoblin Kingsley, and then having Norman Osborn back, Hobby inadvertantly became a lot more like the Green Goblin than ever before. (I personally think Norman should never have been brought back, or at least kept alive after the Clone Saga, but it is what it is now).

Regardless, he's still my all-time favorite Spider-Man villain. As I mentioned, if someone said "the Hobgoblin actually WAS Ned" or "the Hobgoblin wasn't Kinglsey after all but was ___", it wouldn't make him any less so; in fact, it could help the character for all I know.

Well most of the stories showing him with a distinct personality were left as Ned. Kingsley's pretty bland.

They were never going to keep Norman dead after PP:SM #75, like or loathe his return - it would have made no sense to go to the trouble of overturning his death and then kill him off again straight away. That really WOULD have been cheap (plus, the extended TPB version of PP:SM #75 even shows the Goblin pulling himself from the rubble).

And that alone should have been reason to spike Hobgoblin Lives - which, again, came after PP:SM #75. The Hobgoblin was concieved at a time when Norman was dead as a replacement - with the original back (and seeing some fairly good stories in the post-Clone Saga period, Jenkins' run, Ellis' Thunderbolts [remember his naked dictation?] & even, yes, Dark Reign), who the hell was going to want Norman-lite?

Don't you think there's a problem there, since you're effectively saying the Hobgoblin is weakened by being Kingsley, not strengthened?

PS: Looks like Evil Phil is sticking around. Cheap Slott, cheap.

[Interesting how no-one remembers there was a non-Kingsley HG already running around, incidentally...]

Regarding Norman, even though his being alive in a way really lessens the character in mind as the premiere all-time great Spider-Man nemesis, I did enjoy the Jenkins stories post-Clone Saga quite a bit. And when I read them, I did think "well, this story at least kind of makes him being back worthwhile".

Since I've never really thought about how Hobby can exist in a Norman-living MU that much before, and you've made a lot of good points, I'm beginning to see how Hobby not being Kingsley might be a good thing (on the premise that he wasn't just recently killed which can be overturned in a heartbeat). But I definitely don't want him to be like Macendale, as a strait-up mercenary. He'd have to be different from both Norman & Macendale (which he originally was).

I kind of wish that if Slott had gone with a new Hobgoblin that it would be made into a mystery again. That element really suited the character, even though it really got bollocksed up over time. But I think identity mystery is a big part of any goblin character, or at least the notion that whomever is under the mask is just as important.

One problem with the original is that many of the candidates weren't that compelling or logical or really integral in and of themselves beyond being suspects. Ned Leeds was a fairly major supporting character at the time, but I would put him in a second tier at best behind MJ, JJJ, Robbie, Betty, Flash, etc. But Ned was the only suspect who had something compelling in Pete's life. (Flash was never a serious candidate.) As I recall, Ned and Lance Bannon were always the prime suspects in fandom. Lance always seemed like a bonehead, but having a rival photog as a suspect was an interesting take.

So I don't like that we already know it's Phil. I also think that since Slott was making this apparent from the beginning that a little more background on Phil would've been appropriate. He's a fairly obscure character (as the heroic GG) from the early '90s. I know he was used in Runaways and a spin-off of it and may or may not have gotten some play in the BND era, but I'm pretty sure many readers jumping on would be a little lost. And learning more about why he's off the deep end is a must.

Still, I like the menace and persona of the current Hobgoblin himself so far. I just wish Slott had considered some build-up before revealing who it is.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How many times can one series jump the shark, ANYWAY?

I would say Kingsley being killed off is controversial (at least to fans of Stern), but characterizing it as a "jump the shark" moment feels a little too extreme.

Lardy, I'm reading into it that Slott has still left things slightly vague in that he could pull a bait & switch and it would be plausible. Do you get that feeling too, or is that just wishful thinking on my part? In other words, we haven't seen 100% that the new Hobgoblin is Phil though it is obviously heavily implied.

That's how I've read it all along but I'm a jaded old Spider-Man fan who has a tough time believing anything is set in stone anymore. (Though you are also a long-time, likely also jaded, Spidey fan too so... )

How do we KNOW it's really Norman Osborn anyway, and not just some CLONE?????

I haven't read the series since MJ got blown up and "permanently" killed in that airplane explosion, so I'm not sure what level of importance it is either. But to me, these "moments" have been going on since George Stacy got OFFED, and maybe, a few years before that.

I dunno. I just haven't read it that way, but I suppose it's possible circumstantially. It seems if that's what Slott is going for, it's being tremendously downplayed.

Wow, really? I guess any change in the status quo runs that risk with someone who's enjoying the series. For me, it was clearly the Clone Saga and specifically when the writers "revealed" that Peter was the clone all this time. Since then, it's been a series of sharks jumped, culminating with One More Day. Since then, there's been nothing so offensive, though Kraven's return may come closest.

Was Norman ever this great nemesis first time round, though? After ASM #39, he was constantly getting bumped on the head to "forget" his Goblininity after all, and his use to kill off Gwen Stacy was largely "this guy's going nowhere, let's kill him off in a way that changes the series and replace him". Doc Ock was the big nemesis until the Clone Saga, really.

Having said you specifically don't want a "straight-up mercenary" Goblin, it behooves you to now say why not

You say that, but how many of them have been satisfactorily resolved? The Hobgoblin mess is well known, the original Green Goblin revelation was a cheat (using a character introduced long after the ID was teased) and apart from that there's just the Bart Hamilton thing.

The big glider-scar on his chest is a clue.

I'd agree in terms of getting rid of him (although the choice of replacement is poor). But with the shadow of OMD still over the series and Slott writing, it's still hovering over the shark anyway.

As for "controversial to fans of Stern"... notice how few of Stern's favoured characters get any play from other writers? [CM2/Photon is the archetypical example - a lead character in Stern's Avengers run, written out almost immediately by Walt Simonson on the basis that she "had one of the dullest costumes ever foisted on comic book readers with a personality to match", and seeing only background/trademark renewal/"running joke with Genis stealing her codenames" use until she was given to Warren Ellis on a "no-one cares, do what you like" basis for Nextwave].

I read the conclusion to the first "Big Time" arc, and I found it to be a satisfying conclusion! It didn't totally rock my world, but the fact that it was the most enjoyable story arc of the regular, non-Ultimate Spidey I've read in YEARS (maybe since the original JMS Morlun story?) is significant. It was just a good, solid story that gave me pretty much everything I wanted out of a Spidey arc.

Like I said in my review of 650 (on the previous page), Humberto Ramos's art really grew on me here. His style seems perfect for Spidey. I assumed I'd hate it, but I enjoyed it for the most part.

Spidey should be a fun, breezy read most of the time. Dan Slott is capturing that very well in his first 4 issues. The humor is classic Spidey with Slott using some fresh ideas to bring the humor across. Last issue, it was gimmick with the brackets subbing for bits of dialogue other characters weren't into. This issue it was the empty dialogue bubble to reflect Spidey's noise-cancelling costume.

I like how Slott incorporated the Kingpin and Montana into the storyline and even had a couple of possible longterm consequences by the end. I'm also enjoying the looming return of Mac Gargan as the Scorpion and of Alistair Smythe as the Spider-Slayer.

And that last bit which pretty much establishes Phil Urich as kind of an anti-Peter Parker was a terrific bit of subtle work on Slott's part. Really an ingenious move that is helping me warm up to the new Hobgoblin a little more than I thought I would as recently as last issue. If Slott handles the character this well moving forward, I will be pleased.

Well, dman, I'm buying Amazing Spider-Man again! Who'da thunk it? I think Slott has written himself into me at least giving ASM an extended try-out. If he can keep up this level of quality, I'll be buying longterm again!

Lardy's Rating of ASM 648-651 "Big Time": 4 Donuts! (out of five)

Definitely check out the trade!

From one of my Yahoo groups...


Work contineus at the SA Marvel site. For the Spidey section, just wrote this for the 4th "Thumbnails" page. It's tricky trying to say a lot
in only 4 lines of text. "Links" (at the site) up the wazoo.


"With the Oct 1970-dated issues, all hell broke loose. Jack Kirby left for DC,
causing Stan to yank John Romita
off Spidey and have him do Fantastic Four instead. Fresh from Captain Marvel,
Spidey's new artist was Gil Kane,
just in time for the uncalled-for death of Captain Stacy. As before, Romita
remained on the book as "de facto"
editor, still supplying plots, covers, and occasional interiors."


My view has long been that AMAZING SPIDER-MAN has been an almost endless series
of "jumping the shark" moments. This is when something happens that is SO bad,
so DRASTICALLY off-putting, that somehow, the series NEVER really recovers. But
unlike TV series, where such an event eventually (usually soon) leads to a
permanent loss of quality and audience, and cancellation, with these
corporate-owned comic-book characters, the DAMNED things go on, and on, and ON,
from one "jumping the shark" moment to another to another TO ANOTHER. How can
any modern fans even stand it???


Allow me to list my own personal choices...


1 - John Romita takes over, and half the cast undergoes sudden and drastic
personality changes.


2 - Stan yanks John off the book to do other things, causing a steady stream of
"fill-in" artists, ALL THE WHILE John is still supplying plots, layouts, and
covers.


3 - Jack quits, and Stan yanks John off to do the FF, replacing him with a guy
HE HIMSELF not long before said he hated-- GIL KANE. As always seems to happen
when kane is around, the book takes a DARK, manic tone, kicking off a new era of
pointless depressing crap by MURDERING Captain George Stacy, making it look like
Spidey did it, and having Gwen hate Pete's alter-ego. Also under Kane, MJ
changes from a nice, free-spirited girl, to a self-serving B****.


4 - With nothing better to do, John, Gerry, Roy & (once again) Gil BUMP OFF
Gwen, and follow it up the next month by bumping off Norman. To this day, Gerry
& John are each claiming it was "ALL THEIR IDEA".


5 - Gil swaps books with Ross Andu, putting one of the LEAST-APPROPRIATE artists
ever for Spidey in place on his book for a long, long time.


6 - Romita turns over control of the book to Gerry Conway (who fans only THINK
had been plotting the book himself for over a year by then), and the quality of
the writing plummets further still.


7 - The "Gwen Stacy Clone" is foisted on Conway, making him even less popular
with fans, not long before he departs for DC.


8 - Len Wein makes MJ even more of a B**** than Kane had, and spends 3 years on
the book essentially telling ONE long storyline. Andru & Esposito supply some of
the WORST "art" in the history of the series.


9 - Marv Wolfman breaks up Pete & MJ


After this, it boggles my mind that anybody ever cared at all. Pete goes thru a
steady succession of "relationships" with a parade of girls, not one of whom I
would ever be caught dead with. And this is still back in the late 70's!!!

I'm still enjoying Amazing under Dan Slott quite a bit! Though I deceided to skip the issues that featured Avengers Academy because they screamed "FILL-IN!", I've enjoyed the recent Mr.Negative/Anti-Venom/Wraith two-parter. And that's saying something because I new nothing about Mr. Negative and very little about Eddie Brock's new identity. That shows that Slott did his job and wrote the story in such a way as to let readers know what they needed to know to enjoy it.

I love that Slott's not afraid of Peter's long history. Having someone use the Wraith identity and making it appear that Jean DeWolff was back was something that a lot of writers would not have done. (He also showed many familiar, mostly forgotten faces in the excellent "dream sequence" story right after Marla Jameson's death.) I kinda almost wish that Wraith was Jean's ghost, but I like how the revelation showed how competent Pete's girlfriend Carlie is at her job.

I'd say that anyone who loves Spidey and has been estranged by numerous missteps with the character over the last coupla decades should check out Slott's run on Amazing. It has the feel of those great Spidey eras of the 60s, 70s and 80s without feeling totally rehashed. Great stuff!

Agree with everything you say. This is probably the best the series has been post-clone saga. Slott has totally my previous negative feelings towards him. He just seems to get Peter, his cast and what makes a good Spider-Man story while making it feel totally fresh and new.

I also loved the Wraith character which is a great mix of new and obscure. Slott shows he is a good writer in using this story to also make Carlie shine, as Lardy says and also address the Mr. Negative subplot (which has been ongoing but stands on it's own here).

Also, I love Eddie Brock's status quo for the first time ever, really. Just like I live Venom for the first time ever, I also like Eddie. The way it's broken out is really interesting.

I'm actually pretty excited for Spider Island! When at first I heard the Jackal was returning (a villain who holds a special place in my heart) I was hesitant. But now that I'm seeing him, I'm just really excited to have him back. He's always been one of my favorites even before the 90's Clone Saga.

I'm loving how tech-heavy and sci-fi Slott has made the series again. Spidey should always contain those elements and it just feels fresh and exciting while being the perfect evolution of the series.

Just read Amazing #666, the prelude to "Spider Island". This book is massively new reader friendly and a perfect jumping-on point for anyone interested in the storyline or in Spidey's "Big Time" direction. Everything you need to know going into SI is here, along with a great exploration of Pete's current status quo. As a true prelude, it doesn't actually begin the storyline full force, but it's highly entertaining and puts most of the pieces on the chess board.

"Spider Island" looks like it might be the rare Big Two event to actually satisfy if this is any indication. Slott's run has been of high quality to this point, and the art in this issue by Stefano Caselli is a terrific lovechild of Marcos Martin's cleaner, classic style and Humberto Ramos's cartoony, hyper-expressive work--having a middle ground between both.

Ramos will be doing the issues of the actual storyline. I've been put off by his style in the past, but Ramos really seems to have found the perfect character for his style.

Best of all, even with all the tie-ins, all anyone really has to buy to get the story are the issues of Amazing themselves. Who knows, though...maybe I will pick up some of the others!

So far, I've been enjoying the hell out of Spider-Island, both the Spidey issues and the Venom issues. Neither is needed for the other btw. I may pick up the Cloak & Dagger series.

I'm actually enjoying the usage of the Jackal so far as well, after some trepidation. The mystery of who the mysterious woman is has me interested, since Joyce Delaney / Gwen clone has been eliminated.

This also looks like a big focus on Carlie and Peter's relationship which is welcome.

Spider-Island continues to rage through Amazing Spider-Man (with a host of tie-in minis that I’m not picking up) and thus far I’ve been enjoying the heck out of it! Rather than a serious, dark, angsty storyline, thus far the story has been one huge Summer Blockbuster—full of fun, action-adventure and excitement. It may end up being what Maximum Carnage could have been!

The premise is just fun to begin with, and Slott plays that up to the extreme. This includes more guest stars than you can shake a stick at, Peter web-slinging sans costume through NYC, Carlie being awesome with her spider-powers, Jonah deputizing all the ‘good’ New Yorkers with Spider-powers and all kinds of other tidbits. While the main plotline is never out of focus, all of these little side moments really enhance each issue’s enjoyment. I also love that Slott has included so much of Peter’s supporting cast here as well.

The larger plotline, complete with the Jackal and his mysterious partner / benefactor, also continues to intrigue. The Jackal is being used in a way he never has been before, and I’m enjoying that approach.

Slott, who is a master of Spidey continuity, also cleverly leaves some Easter Eggs for longtime fans. In the recent Jackal one-shot (the only one I grabbed), Joyce Delaney is killed—the original Gwen Clone. Considering she’s been a dangling plot thread for 40 years, this didn’t bother me too much; I’m more impressed that anyone remembered her besides the 100 or so mega Spidey fans online.

I tend to not enjoy Humberto Ramos’ artwork but with the tone of this story so far it seems to be working. He can draw crazy, non-stop action and we’ve gotten plenty of that. He also looks like he’s had a blast drawing all the lame one-off Spidey costumes over the years.

So Resident Spider-Man Expert Cobaltus: Who do YOU think the mysterious "partner/benefactor" is? If anyone should have a good guess, it should be you!

Well, smart money would have been on the aforementioned Joyce Delaney, the long-surviving Gwen Clone. It's been a shock some writer didn't bring her back as a villain over the years, unable to resist the image of Spidey battling Gwen Stacy. But Slott took her off the table with her recent death (surely by design). There's the chance it was a bait and switch but I doubt it.

That leaves two prime candidates in my mind:

(1) Marla Jameson - recently deceased but perhaps not quite. She has the motive in that NYC got more love from her husband than she did (both when JJJ ran the Bugle and now as Mayor); thus, she wants NYC to suffer plus using all those Spider-Men will infuriate Jonah. She also has the means--she is a brilliant scientist after all. She was originally introduced creating Spider-Slayers so this isn't too far out of her characterization.

(2) Martha Conners - the wife of the Lizard, and with her son Billy recently dead, her losing it isn't out bounds. Utilizing a scientist like the Jackal would make sense. This one is a little tougher because she doesn't have the know-how or financial means but these plot points can be explained. More glaring is the lack of the Lizard in the story which would seemingly have to happen for dramatic effect.

One possibility I really hope isn't even in contention is Liz Allen. I think Slott is nice and smart enough to leave her alone.

Am I missing anyone you think? I've been thinking along the lines of 'someone we already know' rather than surprise super-villainess, since there aren't many that have meaning for Spider-Man.

I don't really have any guesses, Cobester. I've assumed the answer is somewhere in the post Brand New Day era, but Slott has a fondeness for more old school characters--so it's possible!

If it's Marla, it would diminish the awesome issue that followed her death which many think is an instant classic. But it would make a lot of sense how this is all playing out, I must admit.

Martha Conners, eh? That would support my inkling that the answer is within the BND era. Kind of an odd "revenge" for her to take.

My only guesses would be:

1) The original Madame Web, Cassandra Webb. A Wikipedia search shows that she's dead, but I think she was an awesome under-utilized character. This Spider Island scenario reminds me a lot of the kinds of things she would do in the '90s Spider-man animated series, where she frequently tested Peter in enigmatic ways. The way they hid the mystery lady's eyes and how you couldn't tell where she was in relation to the Jackal and his clones (in the Prelude, which is as far as I've gotten, so far), made me wonder if she was sitting down in some version of her old life support chair.

2) Mattie Franklin. I see she died around the same time as Madame Web. She was a Spider-Woman. You could see where that got her and why she'd want revenge.

3) Julia Carpenter, the new Madame Web. She's already appeared in the story and seems pretty flaky. Who knows, she may be playing both ends for some unknown purpose?

4) Jackpot. Missed her storyline in the BND era, but I read of her storyline shows that she might blame Spidey for the death of her husband and of the girl who also used the Jackpot identity.


I hope its not Liz, either. We've had enough Spidey supporting characters turned into heroes or villains. On the other hand...you could almost justify it after all she's been through. Hope not, though.


Anyhow, that's all I've got! I WILL say that Spidey could certainly use a good female villain, so I hope she's a major player going forward. (Must say, though, that my Cassandra Webb theory is my favorite! )

...of course, it could STILL be a Gwen Stacy clone. Gwen's Wikipedia entry (if accurate) mentions three clones, giving special attention to one called "Abby-L" who is not said to have died. It says Abby-L is the first Gwen clone (as Kaine was the actual first Spidey clone), which would fit in with the Kaine scenes in the Prelude.

However, you mention "Joyce Delaney" as having been killed in that Spider-Island spin-off when the article says "Abby-L" killed her. So this could be one of those famed Wikipedia inaccuracies. Can't say as I haven't read the stories in question it references.

I thought about Madame Web too, and thats a good guess! I never realizes she played a big role in the cartoon.

Like you, I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride. I also hope whoever she is, she becomes a major villain going forward. Like you said, Peter really needs a strong female nemesis.

"Why did Steve Ditko leave Marvel?"


Thought I'd pass this on from CAPTAIN COMICS. It started out as a discussion about WHO The Green Goblin was originally intended to be, but then someone suggested that Stan over-ruling Steve was the reason Steve quit Marvel. I DON'T THINK SO...


"It should be pointed out that for at least the last year before Ditko left, he and Stan weren't on speaking terms. At all. Now, some people say this was Steve being difficult, BUT IT WASN'T. It was STAN. Why? "Simple". Steve had INSISTED on CREDIT AND PAYMENT for plotting the stories. AND HE GOT IT. Now, since Stan was regularly in the habit by then of getting CREDIT AND PAY for plots other people were doing, this meant, that money was coming out of Stan's pocket. So he took it as a personal affront that Steve was getting paid for work Steve was actually doing, INSTEAD OF STAN. So Stan refused to talk to Steve from that point on. Steve described once going into the office, and having to turn his pages over to Sol Brodsky (production manager), without seeing Stan, because Stan refused to talk to Steve.


Meanwhile, Martin Goodman had made a verbal promise that if the new characters Kirby & Ditko were coming up with took off, they would share in licensing royalties. Then, HE BALKED on his promise. Goodman LIED, and as a matter of principle, Steve began planning to leave Marvel right then and there. His leaving, apparently, had very little to do with who the hell The Green Goblin would turn out to be, or not. Saying that was the reason was Stan's way of making Steve seem small and petty, instead of highly principled.


Gee, what a nice place to work..."

The documentary "Searching for Steve Ditko" by Jonathan Ross covers this topic brillaintly. The best part is when Ross gets Stan to drop his "good 'ol Stan" routine for the briefest of moments to reveal the ego-maniac underneath.

Well, apparently, it's none of the above!

When I read a review of last week's issue and it said she was revealed and is obscure, I couldn't resist and looked at the last page. Never heard of her--and she doesn't even have a proper Wikipedia entry! Seems like an interesting lady, though, and one who maybe didn't deserve to fall into obscurity?

Des, once you find out who it is, let me know your thoughts. I'm sure you read her original appearances with your inclusive Spidey-buying background. (Meantime, until I know you've read the issues or the spoilers, I won't even mention what run she first appeared in!)

Now I'm really curious! I've thus far avoided spoilers and will continue to do so! If she appeared in a Spidey story before I'm sure to know her.

I'm sure you will! I love Slott's humorous touches, and once again, Humberto ramos seems perfectly suited for a Spidey book of this scope.

Looking forward to the rest of the storyline and seeing how it plays out!

Spider-Island continues to move along with #669 and just gets more and more fun. We get spider-enhanced versions of Chance, Scorcher and White Rabbit (all of whom haven’t been seen in years), and then the crème de la crème of awesome spider-enhanced Spidey Villains is the 6-armed Shocker; that last bit started out as very comical and then ended up being pretty horrific.

Slott makes a smart plot decision in taking the ‘awesome’ tone of thousands (millions?) of people having spider-powers and now transitioning it to the horrific plot of these infected people becoming horrific spider-like monsters. Carlie’s apparent transformation was absolutely terrifying and that is really going to amp things up.

Meanwhile, he just nails so many other great story elements. First, the Carlie / Peter interaction is so incredibly likable and well done. She’s obviously figuring out Pete is Spider-Man and you can see Pete will have to make a decision on whether he should tell her. Slott has done a wonderful job making Carlie an important and empathic girlfriend for Pete.

He also uses the Horizon Labs crew to great effect, and having them interact with both Mr. Fantastic, as well as Mayor Jameson works really well. Jameson himself is just completely awesome here. Slott probably has the best handle on him since probably…Stan Lee? He gets all the good and bad parts of JJJ. Not only does he have him doing things, advancing the story, but he’s having him react perfectly to things such as “Spider-Island” and “Spider-Earth”, as well as being infected. Plus, love seeing my girl Gloria doing stuff too.

This issue had the big reveal about who the mysterious woman is:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">I’ll admit, I didn’t see this coming at all! The Spider-Queen, if its whom I’m thinking it is, is one of the major characters that tie into JMS’s “The Other” mythology for Spider-Man. I think she appeared once by JMS and then had a subsequent appearance in PAD’s FNSM series. To be perfectly honest, I haven’t ever thought much of her as a character—but that might change now.

The fact that Slott is fully embracing the JMS ‘The Other’ storylines is a bold move and shows the man has balls. It’s really about time that was smoothed into spider-history and doing that by combining that continuity with the clone stuff is just crazy-ambitious!

It also makes me wonder if the “Spider King” is Ezekiel? I know some people are guessing Ben Reilly, but that seems almost too easy.

For quite awhile, I was willing to never see the Other-related stuff again, Spider-Queen included. But I’m curious what Slott will do.

I wonder if he’ll tie in how the original Tarantula turned into a monster very similar to what Kaine and the Spider-King are?</span></span>

Spidey is one of the best superhero comics on the market right now—consistently—and it feels so good to type that.

Actually, my research into the mystery woman shows she originated during <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Paul Jenkins' stint as a Spider-writer (parallel to JMS), with Spectacular Spider-man #15 being her first appearance. Her appearance precedes "The Other" storyline. Dunno if she appeared in that storyline or not. Never read all of it.</span></span>

Ah, you are correct. Actually, I think Humberto Ramos was her co-creator, so maybe he asked Slott to bring her back.

I recall her tying into JMS' 'the Other' mythology; I think she was like the 2nd of 3 great token-related enemies Peter had to fight (the first being Morlun and the second being the Other).

I recall the arc wasn't that good. It was a 6 parter that should have been 3 parts.

Those creatures made me think of what happened to the original Tarantula (Anton Miguel Rodriguez) as well, particularly as Jackal called one of them "Tarantula". Tarantula died after having been mutated into a giant spider. Interestingly, Rodriguez first appeared working with the Jackal...

If nothing else, Slott definitely is doing a lot of shout-outs to Spidey history in this arc and in his run as a whole! *LIKE*

Cobalt, you're getting mixed up with Ero, the woman made from the spiders that ate Peter's discarded skin, who debuted near the end of The Other (in the *non*-JMS issues, he never used her) and was used muchly in PAD's FNSM.

If you refer to "The Other", it was actually a whopping TWELVE parts!

If you meant the arc that introed the lady in question, it pretty much was 6 parts as it bled into the "Avengers Disassembled" story. I seems this story was also the one that temporarily gave Spidey his <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">immensely unpopular organic web-shooters!</span></span>

I finally got to Amazing Spider-man #668, part two of Spider Island". This arc is still a rollercoaster of FUN, two issues (and a prequel) in. Peter webslinging out of costume with his girlfriend and a slew of civic-minded and spider-powered New Yorkers is just too groovy an idea to believe no one ever thought of it before! Fun, fun story--can't wait to read the rest of it!

FYI, I read somewhere online the full story about the Queen and it jogged my memory of her quite a bit. I still feel like there was some sort of connection to JMS's whole mythos of Ezekiel and stuff, but that could have been something Jenkins originally implied to get more readers to check it out. Long story short is: this story is FAR MORE INTERESTING than anything the Queen was ever in before.

With one more issue to go, I'm loving Spider-Island. It's all the fun of the major Spider-crossovers of the 80's and 90's but with an actual solid story that builds on Spidey's mythos and utilizes his supporting cast.

I've enjoyed it so much I'll probably get the Scarlet Spider series too when that comes out. Easy money is that it stars Kaine but for some reason, given the Venom / Flash thing, I kept thinking it might star Randy Robertson for some reason (who in my theory keeps his powers after this story).

Spider-Island wrapped up in fantastic fashion, maintaining its level of quality and fun in its conclusion as it did throughout the series. I’m now an official fan of Humberto Ramos and convinced more than ever that the ‘Big Time’ Slott era is reaching heights that no run on Spider-Man has since the late 80’s.

The Queen was done very well and even though her returning may seem impossible, I do hope she comes back. The Jackal was great and the nod towards what’s next for the character was expected but still awesome. The best part of the series though was three-fold: (A) we get to see Peter being the brilliant scientist we know he is, which highlights the ‘man’ makes the Spider-Man, and we get to see his awesome science-related supporting cast; (B) we get to see Spider-Man in a situation where there are over a million other spider-men & spider-women and what makes him stand out; and (C) we get to see some awesome personal development for Peter with Carlie (which has me looking to see where this goes now) and even better, Mary Jane. Probably my favorite Peter & Mary Jane interaction since…pre-Clone Saga?

The Venom tie-in issues were equally as good, with writer Rick Remender kicking ass in ways I could never imagine for either Venom or Flash. What he’s done here is simply amazing: he’s made Venom a character I really care about, he’s given Flash the starring role of a lifetime with Betty and others being equally as important and he’s made Venom a comic enjoyably connected to Spider-Man but able to stand on its own. Impressive.

I really liked how Slott had been setting up so much of this for months. From Doc Ock’s former robots playing a role to the Spider-suit Peter created coming into play and then being taken by Kaine at the end. I’m enjoying Venom so much that picking up Scarlet Spider when it debuts is a no-brainer. I like Kaine as a character (and I would have liked Ben Reilly too), but my only hesitation is the creative team doesn’t have the same pedigree as Venom’s creative team; in fact, my past enjoyment of their work has been sparce. We’ll see.

Meanwhile, the second Spider-Man series debuted with Avenging Spider-Man, which is basically a reluanch of Marvel Team-Up with a name that has a better chance to sell. I tend to be nostalgic about such things but I can see its probably a much more clever strategy. Zeb Wells is the writer and he really nails it from the get-go; he was never the most prolific web-head during the last era but his stories were always terrific. He could be deadly serious at times and then he could be hilarious. In #1 he not only rivals Slott & Joe Kelly in showing Peter’s hilarious side, but he writes the absolute funniest Jonah Jameson EVER. I’d probably buy five copies a month of a JJJ series by Zeb Wells at $3.99 a pop.

Joe Mad is the artist which is the big news of the day. I like Joe Mad well enough but his art isn’t my all-time favorite. His old X-Men work never really made me take notice before, but his Battle Chasers series was pretty fantastic. Here, he really knocks it out of the park with his pension for chaotic battle scenes. Pov once told me that the absolute worst artist in keeping deadlines was Joe Mad and apparently that’s true: by #4, a few guest artists will show up. That doesn’t really bother me since as long as it’s a new storyline with new guest, the artist doesn’t have to be uniform.

Red Hulk is the first team-up, and I’ve followed the character since his first appearance (I guess in two ways). It’s an interesting and amusing dynamic. I know we’ll get a lot of the team-ups you’d expect (Wolverine, Cap, Iron Man, etc.) but I expect we’ll get some random ones as well.

I recently went to the CBS and got 4 weeks of comics. It’s pretty telling that after Walking Dead, the first comics I read were the Spider-Man and Venom comics (I’m saving the most recent issues of each for later on to savor it). The franchise is just kicking ass and taking names right now and it makes me feel good to be able to say that!

I saw this over on Lucky Star Shrine. Let's hope Quesada doesn't see it, or it might become his next "great" idea. :rolleyes: (Spoilered to save space)

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> </span></span>

AWESOME time travel story in recent issues of Spider-Man teaming him up with one of the cool Horizon supporting characters that Slott has introduced. Slott excels here with his best qualities: fun, complex plot + characterization of Spider-Man and the supporting cast in just about every single panel. I also love that this was a nice little self-contained two-parter without ever for a moment taking away from the momentum of the run thus far.

Also, as a major fan of obscure Spidey stories, I can appreciate a big in-joke within. At one point, Spidey goes out to 'do stuff' and finally fights a super-villain; this turns out to be F.A.C.A.D.E., an obscure one-off villain from the mid-90's (just before the clone saga). The kicker of that panel is FACADE had a mysterious identity in that story that was set-up to be an ongoing mystery...and then was promptly never revisited again. Until now--15 years later! I've been dying to know the answer to this question for 15 years and Slott amusingly makes fun of me and others like me who remember the story by not telling us! To be honest, I really don't remember anything about FACADE other than he had a mysterious identity, and also because this was the awful, stupid story that killed Lance Banon for no reason. If anything, Slott should use FACADE to restore Lance to life.

Lardy, I presume you're still reading and enjoying?

Yeah, ASM's been so good that I've overlooked Marvel quietly dropping the extra story pages beginning with Spider Island. It's Spidey done right for the first time in a long, LONG time, so I'm onboard for the foreseeable.

My most recent issue read was the one-off with the Sinister Six vs. the Frightful Four, so I'm a little behind ya.

So-- the Winter Guard seemed to be killed in a recent issue (don't know the number). I leafed through that issue and thought it looked like there was any number of 'saves' that could be written.

But the event hasn't even been referred to in the Spidey books, has it? Does Peter know what happened? Do the other heroes? The Russian government?

Is there follow-up coming?

^ Todd, to me it didn't look like they were killed, just beaten.

Anyway, the latest Spidey blockbluster is underway with "Ends of the Earth", and so far it's been another whopping Dan Slott success! Yet another fantastic adventure thrill ride featuring Spidey & pals vs. the "new" Sinister Six. (Note, the Sinister Six with the Rhino and Chameleon instead of the Vulture and Kraven isn't the real one, but that doesn't bother me).

It's chock full of all the good things Lardy and I have mentioned already, so I won't be too repetitive.

But I will add that Slott doesn't something really cool here regarding the Sandman. He very cleverly establishes that one lone grain of sand is the 'true Sandman', which allows him to take on more grains as he pleases, explaining the increases in size he's had over the years (particularly since Spider-Man 3). It's a small yet brillaint enhancement to Sandy.

Also, love seeing Silver Sable get a chance to shine after what feels like forever!

I may actually get the crossover 626/Ultimate Spider-man mini. Looks like fun, and I like the villain that will be featured. We'll see...