Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH 44 spoilers

Can't believe nobody's started this thread yet, but here goes.

Ugh. Detested the artwork so bad I could barely bring myself to read it. The future slang is back too. And hello? Light Lass is supposed to be a redhead.

As I mentioned in the "Calling the Roll" thread, I tend to doubt that this issue was solely the work of Jim Shooter. I suspect someone finished his plot, or else heavily reworked his script. It just does not read at all like his previous issues.

If not for Rich Johnston's rumor that Shooter has briefly left the book, I'd wonder what happened to his brain this issue. With the rumor, I suspect this book was finished in house during his brief absence, and that his name was kept on to placate his return.

Just a theory, of course, but I'm sticking with it until convinced otherwise.

I agree the art left a LOT to be desired. I also agree with veryvery that the inking seems to have been much of the problem

I thought for a moment I was reading LSH31C, though I've seen way better artwork in that book. Plus the cartoonish style was discordant with the murder of Cazhmir and the threat of rape. I wonder if FJM stopped working when Shooter did or the other way around? I would honestly prefer they skipped a month than publish inappropriate art that works against the story.

Despite this, the story did move forward quite a lot but at the expense of the space pirates, who were nothing but base rapists. I had hoped to see some new villains who had legs, but oh well.

Another unfulfilled wish is finding out more about Jo's past and the vehicular homicide he's charged with. At least Lyle gets his day in the sun and his nerd revenge, which is lost past due. (about 4 years)

M'Rissey's scheme was very clever and creative, and brings an end to the Legion vs U.P. plotline. Yeah, it was a bit contrived but not as contrived as, say, reintroducing 3boot R.J. Brande. Now the Legion is independent, rich beyond their wildest dreams and ready to rumble against a more promising threat -- an invading planet.

So, like everyone in the 31st century who can pay the price of a flight ring will be able to fly now? That's got to pose a traffic problem.

About selling rights to produce flight rings: Weren't we told early and often in this boot that flight rings were prohibitively expensive to make. Wasn't that why Lu could only have one?

yeah, the art was a bit rough. but it was much better that what was in Iron Fist. the story was interesting, but the art is awful. just simply really awful. oh, wait this the LSH board. sorry about that.

regarding the marketing of the rings: will the LSH be held responsible for accidents involving the rings. and if tons of people suddenly have them, will that lead to some kind of ban. the rings are a weapon of sort.

sometimes pirates just want to pillage and grab saucy wenches. nothing beyond that.

it's been over a day and only 3 responses. wow, you guys are really down on this book.

Not down: I just got LSH 41. It takes a couple of months to get in here.

I liked it.


Ikilles = Achilles, with his weakness being women?


I have to admit, the artwork did come off as ligththearted or kind of silver agey almost while the story was rather dark...it was kind of an interesting clash.


I liked m'rrissey...and I think his dialogue is proof that Shooter did indeed script this story as some fans have been wondering...that was Shooter dialogue all the way, as was the tendency to mention scientific concepts...Shooter has always done that, it is a holdover from his breaking into the business back in the Silver Age when the practice of including plausible scientific explanations, terminology and concepts in midstory was common place and usually some form of plot device for their frequent gimmic plots....it is a lost art.

Lots of modern writers try to do it with a modern sensitibility put on it, but it seldom sounds legitimate and it frequently comes off as pseudo intellectualism, or lazy writing. Whereas back in the Silver Age they actually did often use legitimate scientific terminology, concepts and principles...very few guys actually do that now. I think Mark Waid is one of the few modern writers to actually do it. And I know Jim Shooter does it because he reinvented the concept when he invented the New and Valiant Universe and had those universes and their superheroes based in the world of real physics and legitimate science and scientific theories.

That was definitely Shooter, at least doing M'rrisey's dialogue it was.


All in all I enjoyed it...but the art wasn't right for the story.


Come back soon Frances...you were missed.

I'll join the majority and give the artwork a thumbs down. I've never seen any work by Mr. Greene or Mr. Massengill before. Maybe there is a book out there somewhere that their styles would be good for. It isn't the Legion. Francis's cover, on the other hand, was nice. I liked the way they moved the title, number and UPC code to make room for the action.

The story was a mixed bag. The manhandling of Ayla, the murder of Cazhmir, and Norima's swooning all provide more fodder for the those who object to Shooter's characterization of women.

I liked the pacing of the story. Perhaps it would have been interesting to see the Ikonns developed a bit more, but it was nice to see a storyline wrap up and reach a conclusion. I grew up reading comic books that typically told a complete story in 17 pages. It doesn't bother me at all to see villians introduced, set up, and taken down in short order. It was nice to see Invisble Kid get his chance to prove himself to his critcs so soon, as well. They called him names last issue. He saved their butts this issue. A nice bit of character development and shift in the team dynamic that didn't have to drag out for months.

I like what Shooter is doing with the Legionnaires powers. He has been giving us some creative takes. This issue was Ayla's turn. I can't remember her ever being shown as this powerful before. It was fun to watch her let loose. Atom Girl in combat was good to see, as well. I like the way she is emerging as one of the 3boot heavy hitters. Back in the Adventure or Levitz era's would we have ever considered Vi to be the one you wanted next to you in fight?

It's nice that M'rissey didn't turn out to be a bad guy. The Legion's Business Affairs Manager. Hmmm. Let's see where it goes.

I can't figure out if the OKKK is part of a running gag or a clue as to what happened to Karate Kid and Trip. No time to rest. Another crisis is at hand. Manapul will be back for it, I hope...

I think his weakness was being between 2 statues on a collision course.

It looks like the Legion got lawyered up. I'd have like to have Deputy Chief of Staff Popoff's reaction to the latest turn of events.

actually, achilles' weakness was men in the Iliad. and freaking out over small things.

someone on this board said the pirates' names were references to some guys shooter had a beef with, could someone clarify?

oh but, seriously, sanford is a really really awesome artist. check out his DA page for stuff that's all him. http://greenestreet.deviantart.com/

i think his art is TOTALLY classy and slick, i've seen him draw in a more serious style so... yeah i don't know what happened here. it looks like they were pressed for time to me. maybe because of the convention season?

I usually refrain from posting until I've reread the story and had time to digest it, hence my scanty comments above. This story I have absolutely no desire to reread and doubt that I ever will. The artwork was just too appalling to bear in my book.

I do wonder if there's some connection between Val and Luornu being the ones swept away into the time stream and their parallel selves being time lost in that awful Countdown nonsense.

And what was that block of wood in Lyle's hand that the ropes were tied to? I kept thinking it was his hand. Then later I thought it was the OKKK chunk of wood. How OKKK was supposed to tell the team anything is beyond me.

The SP chick calling I love you after Jo was just gratuitous romantic rubbish.

I'd say the best thing about the issue was the Neal Adams variant cover.

It certainly had the feel of wrapping things up quickly just in case a new creative team was being considered...

But slowly and surely Shooter has been "cleaning up" aspects of Waid's run (the solitude of 31st century citizens, the kids vs. adults, etc.). I wonder if 3 Worlds will make it all for naught?

You are right of course. But still...one second he would be this big tough talking demonic looking guy and then when his girlfriend started in on him his personality totally changed and he didn't want any sort of confrontation at all.

I think there was some sort of parallel there.

Ikonns reference Carl Icahn, a corporate raider who tried to take over Marvel by buying junk bonbs in the mid 90's and pretty much drove their stock into the dirt so he could purchase more of it cheaply.


The Peril-Men reference Ron Perelman, an exec investor guy that ran Marvel in the late 80's early 90's and was the guy behind making them a publicly traded company...

Both of these guys were responsible for selling off a lot of Marvel assets and buying other crappy assets at discount prices using junk bonds, or purchasing them, that basically pushed the company into bankruptcy and nearly put it out of business in the 90's.

Basically these two guys screwed up Shooter's attempt to purchase Marvel in the early 90's and he feels he was used to drive the purchace price of Marvel up and that neither one of these guys were interested in acting in the best interests of Marvel Comics or Comics in general.


Shooter has some issues here...his aborted attempt to purchase Marvel was what lead to him creating the Valiant Universe instead.


Just so you know...Carl Icahn has had his eye on Time Warner, DC's parent company for a long time now as well.


He just wants to make money...something that drives both DC and Marvel...difference is, he doesn't care if there's comics industry left after he makes his.

in one of the first few issues of Shooter's run, maybe even the first issue (don't have it in front of me), there was a running gag that started with Lu and other L*s asking if Karate Kid was "OK," or "OK, KK?" which extended into other things ending in K being repeated throughout the issue - thus an OKKK message from Val is a signal to his teammates that Val is fine.

That is how I read it as well.

The rest of the issue? Blech.

The only things that were good about it were IK saving the day and M'Rissey's revelations. Aside from those two or three pages, it ain't worth the paper.

I'm sure you're right... but my first thought was that it was a hurried attempt to spell Rokk... indicating they had gone with Cosmic Boy

Diplomatically:

The art style would work on a more light hearted one shot or maybe the cartoon version. Nice otherwise, just not this story or particularly, this issue. This was a bad editorial decision, I don't fault the artist here.

Jo Nah This romeo thing is getting SO thick that I'm predicting right here, right now, this is a super-power at work. Seriously. They've been exploring his one-at-a-time powers so may be looking for a way to distinquish him from Superfamily. It didn't IMO make Atmos an interesting character so I'm not sure it's going to work here but...

The child speak didn't just return, it ramped up to every other word, like you know. Is Shooter mad at us?


Almost painful to read in the middle. Started well, ended well, carried through several plots quite well but in the middle I almost gave up.


Predicted M'Rissy's role/poweer on his first panel way back when so am patting myself on the back, vigoriously.

It was good to see the conclusion to a few ongoing plots though it did feel a bit rushed - maybe it was just the art being hit or miss that gave me that impression though?

Ultra Boy has Ultra pheremones obviously - blech! Lets see him deal with blokes hitting onto him, bet he'd get embarrassed and run away.

M'rissy being the Legions business manager is a good idea, though I'd have though Brainy could have filled that role. Am waiting to see where Shooter takes this next.

Pity the UPYA's got no screen time, I'd like to see them in action, particularly Spy. Does anyone else think they'll be inducted into the Academy once it's reintroduced? It will be re-introduced won't it?

And where is Sun Boy and the Terror Firma crew, Dream Boy and Wildfire? Hopefully Shooter will have them appear soon.

Hey Yo!



The UPYA's do seem to be a bit underutilized. Except for M'rissey and Giselle, I can't exactly think that any were needed for the story? I miss the Academy, I can see several of these characters filling a role there but some are more material for a Substiture Legion I think.

After doing my dutiful re-read:

It wasn't the art that bogged me down as I first thought, it was the child-speak.

I did find the opening splash and the frst panel quite dramatic! Then I got totally thrown out of the mood with the Ikilles-T-Wolf face off. Too cartooney.

The Flagship commander: I hope some writer picks up the backstory on this one. She gave Vi a toe-to-toe and got her goat to boot. Vi's comment "would'a beat her" and the commander's comments during the fight gave me a feeling that they already knew each other.

BTW, this fight I also found well done, particalarly depiction of Vi's powers.

Other things I really liked.

Opponents using knowledge of Legion to try and predict their moves.

The Legion Resource manual, a book to boot, tickles my funny bone.

As pointed out, there's things behind the names he has given the characters and some of the expressions used, like Holy Ni Neveh. This makes for good message board discussion.


Questions:

What exactly was it that caused the flagship to explode?

Were Saturn Girl and Colossal Boy "having a moment?"

Complaints about inkers and colorers: I'm not quite following. All the characters and objects seem quite distinct and there's color all over the place!

You rang?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but your phrasing here suggests to me that you find it merely slightly unfortunate that the abovementioned missteps – which might not even warrant much criticism - are taking away from all the good stuff Shooter’s doing with the book.

Well, apart from objecting to his characterisation of not merely women, but of anything and anyone by now, what I find “unfortunate” is that out of 24 pages in this issue a whopping 5 are devoted to who gets to rape whom in exactly what manner.

The whole thing is topped off with:

- Evil Girlfriend, wanting all of Bad Boss’s “loving” for herself, is being jealous of a soon-to-be-rape-victim. Conflating rape and consensual sex: check. Guess Ayla should be flattered by all the attention, she’s prime-grade rape-worthy material!

- Jealousy as a “typical womanly flaw”, whereas “philandering” (as being rape-happy seems to be portrayed here) is a typical male one: check.

- Evil Girlfriend having to die for the female weakness of “loving too much” or however you’d characterise the “I want him all to myself”-relationship she has with Bad Boss: check.


I could really do without all the threatened rape scenarios in every fourth comic I encounter. Dear writers, have your villain be evil in another, more creative way, please – especially if you’re not equipped to handle the subject of rape in a non-titillating, mature and subtle way. I don’t consider Shooter’s lovingly crafted five-pages-scenario, complete with sexual humiliation, tearful female, threats of lobotomy and clothes-pawing as anything approaching subtle. What I get from it is that he has thought a bit too intensely about the whole logistics of it, and that creeps me the hell out.

I also won’t consider Ayla’s near scrape with rape here as “okay” because she wasn’t actually raped and is kicking butt later on. She has been humiliated, was portrayed as totally helpless, did tear up etc. Having the butt-kicking scenario later on doesn’t absolve any writer from the fact that they’ve already served those who get their jollies from seeing such damsel-in-distress-situations, and served them well. (And if anyone here personally enjoys damsel-in-distress-situations, more power to you, but those can and should be searched out in more specialised media –those’ll have the added bonus of being more graphic - and not in mainstream comics. Mainstream comics, where DC still tries to keep up the illusion that they’re trying to market them to kids and teenagers. Uh-huh.)

In short: wretched. Unbelievably wretched. All the hallmarks of Shooter’s writing I’ve come to loathe over the last few months are present and accounted for, and I’m too tired out by the gender issues to comment any further on the lame-ass swear words, endlessly repetitive exposition, clunky intersection of the different plots and sledge-hammer resolutions to Legionnaire inter-squabbling.

Might I suggest Mr. Shooter branching out into in writing sequels to those Gor novels. I think that would be right up his alley. Meanwhile, I’m into the Legion for the super-heroics, and not for the sexual fetishes.

I'll take a good sexual fetish where ever I can find it.


Final Jeopardy Answer.
About 5.26% Alex.

Because of the Con I haven't had a chance to say how much I liked this issue and I'm surprised (although why should I be?) by the negative reactions.

I do see people's point of views, but when I read it ...I thoroughly enjoyed the art and story! Definitely not as clean, crisp, and intricate as Francis, but pleasant for my tastes. We've had a lot worse fill ins. You can see Sanford Greene's more cartoony art with LSH31stC #3 talked about here and here . A very different reaction than here.

I'm glad many plot points got wrapped up as we see the return of Legion World...er...Intruder Planet next issue.

insomniac girl: ditto on... everything you said. sometimes, because we have the same icon, i feel like we're multiverse versions of one another. we're holding hands. through the internets.

man i didn't even think about the fact that crazy girlfriend was also jealous of the rape victim. ahhh GOD!!

rape is handled so badly in most of what i read that i just wish no one would EVER use it.

wow. considering that the fetish in this case is rape fantasy, that's pretty gross and out of line.