Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

AVENGERS THE INITIATIVE #24-- Hardball's plans are revealed. The Negative Zone prison comes into play. Taskmaster recieves an offer. A couple of characters have costumes that are *way* too similar and that similarity isn't helped by the art.

NEW AVENGERS #53-- Madame Masque puts up a helluva fight (made the issue, for me). Brother Voo-doo is the new Sorceror Supreme?

Yeah, sure.

He's wearing the eye in his end-of-issue splash page appearance.

Does this character have what it takes to be Sorceror Supreme?

Mighty Avengers 25-- The art's not my favorite, but it's made a bit more palatable by the coloring. My favorite bit was the exchange between Amadeus and Cassie. Hope it doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

Hank's blow-up disturbed, his creation confounded and his conversation with Reed irritated.

Would these two characters act like this? I could see it more if they were alone in a room in their respective HQs and had it out. But in front of their friends, family members and teammates?

I've read lots of guessing that this dust-up was part of a plan. Which makes more sense. We'll see. Soon, I hope.

Well, I'm not sure I'm up to the latest issues yet, but some brief commentary on the varous series:

(1) Mighty Avengers - I had high hopes for Slott's run but thus far have been essentially dissapointed. I just don't find it exciting, interesting or enjoyable. I love Hank Pym, but I don't like Slott forcing Pym to be so accomplished, a trick that never works. The stories are not only boring, but kind of annoying. You'd think Quicksilver would bring some really dynamics to the team but thus far that hasn't been shown.

(2) Avengers: the Initative. I dropped this like a bad habit. It was getting incredibly long-winded anyway and the recent change in Dark Reign eliminated any sense of interest I had in the title. I predict cancellation in 8 months.

(3) Dark Avengers - not interested really, better comics out there to spend my money on.

(4) New Avengers - and lo, and behold, this old school Avengers fan has to admit that Brian Bendis is currently writing the best Avengers comnic out there. I think he continues to produce good stories, and if you can get over the fact that he has his own personal favorite line-up and is going at the pace he feels most comfortable with, he's actually writing some pretty intersting and fun stories. I would recommend this comic book to anyone who likes team books. After all these years if people are still annoyed its an Avengers book, just pretend its the Defenders, which is what it essentially is anyway.

We usually agree on everything. And I do agree with Might Avengers. I expected MUCH better. Plus Bendis' Avengers books got the best artists.

Initiative? I like it because it's something I wanted to see for a long time. I always wanted a second Avengers book where B, C, and D listers make a bigger team ala GIJOE. Ramos' first few issues really turned me off to it but he's seems to have gotten a handle on things a few issues in. I haven't been loving but I still like it.

Dark Avengers - I love this book. Love the art and the story. Didn't think he can pull it off like Ellis did...but he is.

New Avengers - Blah! maybe cause I just hate the lineup of quasi street level heroes meets spies meets the defenders aka the Bronze Age. That is what this book should be called. As a big Dr. Strange fan I am not happy with what's going but not to worried either. Things have a way to work themselves out. Nice art though.

I wasn't very happy with news that Dr. Strange wouldn't be Sorcerer Supreme any more. I just finished reading every Dr. Strange comic EVER a few months ago. (solo stories not Defenders...yet)

But I get it. He doesn't sell that many comics anymore (who does?). I thought a new younger character and Strange would be his/her mentor might work.

They travel to New Orleans and Son of Satan gets involved. Ok I can buy him as the new Sorcerer Supreme. Kudos to Bendis for having him still in New Orleans after his mini AND using him as a possible sorcerer supreme after the latest Defenders mini mentions that. Oh and I like Son of Satan.

But <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">BROTHER VOODOO????</span></span> . I mean I kind of defend this character when everybody says he is lame and I think he has potential...but not this much potential.

I've decided that MA # 27, the first appearance of the new villain The Unspoken, is going to be the make-or-break issue for me. I just can't keep justifying the expenditure on something which I feel always comes up short on giving me my money's worth. If I do quit, it'll be a shame, because none of the other Avengers books appeal to me (Bendis is hitting a stride of sorts but his dialogue tics and other things get in the way), and there's nothing quite like buying a current Avengers book when it's well done.

I forget... have they ever done a BROTHER VOODOO collection? I'd love to read all his stories if they were in one nice convenient package. I always thought he was cool. Not "great", just "funky". (His appearance in an issue of MARVEL TEAM-UP, pencils by Jim Mooney, was a fave of mine.)

I like Brother Voodoo because his traditional power-set screams 'Vampire!' (hypnotism, enhanced strength, animal control, appearing and disappearing in a cloud of mist, etc.) and has nothing to do really with voudon.

It's kind of like someone made a character named Sister Christian and gave her the super-powers of burrowing, turning people into toads and invisibility.

Hey - that's "DOCTOR Voodoo" to you, sir!

I didn't read the storyline, but they didn't happen to mention that contest of sorcerers that was used in the Doom/Strange graphic novel to choose a new Sorceror Supreme did they? (just curious to see if they tried to maintain consistancy)

Consistency? From Bendis? BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!

Well, my wish came true, and the ending to the misguided MA/FF story came out yesterday, just a couple weeks after the beginning.

It's unremarkable overall, and Slott is taking the He-Wasp/Jocasta thing to painful levels.

Slott also has set himself up for a fall if the next issue doesn't deliver on the promised wondrousness of this new dimension, to say nothing of the new villain. I'm not optimistic, especially with Khoi Pham back on art duties.

So I read the first issue of the FF/Mighty Avengers story. And...WORST ISSUE YET. Slott continues to do something I thought Marvel was making an effort to stop--making Reed (and Hank & Tony) look like an idiot. The dialogue is painful, the pacing is all over the map and all around its pretty damn boring. Its the opposite of exciting. At this point, Mighty Avengers itself feels like a failed experiment creatively. There's no way its selling as good as Bendis' books. And quality wise--its nowhere near as good either.

As for the Brother Voodoo stuff, I actually like the character because of the innate silliness of his name. I'm willing to go with it for now to see where this takes Dr. Strange and "Doctor" Voodoo. I can understand changing Voodoo's name, but why Dr. Strange? He's actually a doctor, after all.

Mark Waid will take over Dr. Strange from here, which is good since Bendis obviously doesn't have a handle on how to use magic-based characters. Still, we'll see what the final product is. First things first, just like Tony Stark, get rid of the damn moustache. Give him a goatee or SOMETHING. The moustaches are not sacred. Its not 1963 anymore, or even 1986.

While I'm not in love with Mighty, it's currently the only Avengers title I'm picking up and the only one I'll consider picking up with the Bendis regime in place. I suffered through around the first 30 issues of New before completely giving up on it. It just wasn't and isn't the Avengers. And from what I saw, Bendis hasn't the foggiest idea of how to write a team book!

Yeah, I suppose there's the most remote possibility that his run improved a great deal after I left, but I'd say giving him 30 issues worth of my hard-earned money was more than gracious on my part. Fool me once...etc. At its core is the biggest flaw--Spidey, and especially Wolverine, just don't belong in the Avengers. Plus, the stories I read were all clunky, and it always felt like what should have been one- or two-issue stories were constantly spread out across around six issues. Bendis has always been guilty of writing for trades, but never were his excesses so evident as they were on New.

If you add in that Marvel books that are too heavily tied into Dark Reign are just taking a huge nosedive in quality for me, maybe you'll understand my view a little better. I'm sorry: Norman Osborn is just not a compelling enough villain to work for me as a threat to the larger Marvel Universe outside the Spider-titles.

Mighty is not an excellent book, certainly. But it's readable and at least feels like an Avengers book with its tone and lineup. It certainly seems to acknowledge the Avengers legacy better than anything else currently going. Yes, the stories are a little thin so far and some of the characterizations a little off at times, but at least it has the right spirit to it.

Yeah, the Reed stuff was definitely puzzling. I felt Reed's stated justification of Pym's past mistakes (Ultron, etc.) believable. But the attitude delivered with it was definitely not Reed Richards. (Couldn't help but chuckle at Hank's infamous, "It's on, bitch!" despite how ludicrous it was, though.)

Maybe, Des, you could share with me/us why you feel New is a superior book? (not just superior to Mighty--it seems clear New is doing it for you)

Lardy, definitely will respond when work eases up a little this morning

But I couldn't help but add that "It's on bitch" is the worst line in Avengers history. Awful. Reminded me of Juggernaut saying "I'm the Juggernaut, Bitch!" in X-Men 3, which was a horrible movie (that line being a prominent representation of how awful it was). Just terrible. It actually made me throw up a little in my mouth.

I agree that that line was awful. Cringe-worthy. I thought that about the entire confrontation between the two 'brains'.

Then I thought about all the times the team 'strong guys' would meet and fight... usually The Thing vs. Thor or Hercules or whoever.

Why shouldn't the eggheads have scientic, mental duels?

Not that these scenes were so elevated that they lived up to a Thing vs. Hercules brawl...

I quite liked the most recent issue with the introduction of The Unspoken. It was fun seeing the Young Inhumans (though I had a few quibbles about them...) and then reading Quicksilver as the 'go-to' guy when it comes to the citizens of Attilan. Plainly, the Avengers don't know the extent of his recent history.

I wish *somebody'd* voice a little understanding of the Inhumans. As far as I'm concerned, their declaration of war on the U.S. was totally justified. You think we wouldn't be mounting terrorist attacks if the Declaration of Independence or the Liberty bell were stolen? Get real.

I want to see an American superhero realize and vocalize this.

I always wondered about the monarch preceding Blackbolt and what he might've been like... he makes an interesting Kirby-ish antagonist.

The promise of all those Avengers squads coming together is tantalizing. I'm looking forward to that.

What did you think of the new HQ? I don't think it *quite* lived up to the awe the team-members were showing. The prospect of all those doors opening to different places is a good one, though. I can imagine lots of yucks, though. Like- Hercules walking into Bucky and Natasha's bedroom when he needs to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night?

Instant teleportation *sounds* like a great story idea, but I think it can be *very* limiting. If it's that easy to get character A to disaster-point B, then why not have Thor or whoever serve as dues ex machina every single time?

What about Jocasta's new role? I'm disappointed that she won't be 'in the field'. I was looking forward to seeing her become a full-fledged superheroine. Not a housemaid/hostess/Van Dyne appearance fluctuator.

Oh, well.

Read the latest New Avengers for the wrap-up on the Dr. Strange / Brother Voodoo story. All in all, a bit of a let-down, and it showcases Bendis' greatest weaknesses. He can't really show anyone doing anything in a fight. There is just explosions and "oh shit, everything is falling apart!"-isms. Plus he really should stay away from magic; none of his characters know whats going on because its obvious he neither knows or cares.

It leaves both Strange and Brother Voodoo in an interesting place on where to go from here but...will I be buying either mini-series? Only if I feel an impulse at the CBS. I certainly won't reserve a copy for either. Cool to see Hellstrom though.

As for Mighty Avengers, thats at the bottom of my reading pile because its such a steaming pile of crap recently. I'll review when I get to it.

WHY BUY IT THEN?!

Seriously, why support Slott when he turns out such utter, utter pigswill?

[And isn't there a separate New Avengers thread ?]

His covers have been painful enough... otherwise I am happy to have an Avengers title being written by Bendis! Even though I found his Iniative stint more exciting then what we have seen thus far.

His Cassie has been so annoying, at this point I'd wish Jack of Hearts would come back if not for the sole purpose to kill her off aswell!

Bah, I use this thread for all Avengers titles.

Like Stealth, I'm buying it for two more issues to see how it develops. That's about all I gave Avengers: Initiatve. But I do intend to drop it if the quality keeps up. I figured I'd give Slott one more storyline but I don't have high hopes.

(PS - I love when you post about Slott )

Well, Slott didn't deliver for me. I think he has some good ideas (and a lot of bad ones), but he has neither the craft nor the strong artistic support to pull off the good ideas. And, like Titan Lad said, Slott has completely botched his portrayal of Cassie, who should have been to this book what Courtney was to the early years of JSA. So it's bye-bye, MA. I respect Lardy's desire for a more "Avenger-y" book (him and I respectfully disagree on the merits of the Busiek era) but that's the last thing that I want, because for me The Avengers has always, at its best, been about looking forward, not looking back.

Which brings us to New Avengers. Stuart Immonen is the new artist, and his first issue, #55, has some of the best art of his career. And while some of Bendis's shortcomings and stylistic tics continue to annoy, he does finally seem to have remembered that a story needs a solid foundation and his dialogue is gradually getting less grating. There's still a lot I dislike -- Clint's painfully out-of-character bloodlust, the clumsy portrayals of the supernatural that Cobie mentioned, and the very presences of Spidey and Wolvie -- but overall it's getting more progressive and less amateurish.

What the--?!?!?

*faints*

Where's the REAL Stealth and what have you done with her?!?!?!?



Honestly, though, after the travesty that was Avengers Disassembled, I'm surprised you'd even buy an Avengers book written by Bendis, much less give it a positive review! It's cool though--I'm just...shocked!

Obviously, we've discussed this, and I respect your opinion on all of that. I should reiterate that I'm not in lover with Slott's MA, but so far it's maintaining it's buy status with me.

Please don't misunderstand, though...I'm not anti-progress or anything with the Avengers. I just feel that if you're gonna call a group Avengers, it has to feel like the Avengers! It's hard for me to describe with perfect eloquence what I mean, but I guess the biggest part of it is whether the lineup feels like the Avengers.

You don't necessarily have to have Cap, Thor and Iron Man in the lineup, but it's good to have characters with that gravitas they bring. It also helps to have characters who are natural team players. I'm not 100% clear on who all the current New Avengers are, but most I can think of work either better as loners or as part of a small group. Cap/Bucky is definitely more of a behind the scenes/espionage character than Steve Rogers was. Luke Cage was always a glorified mercenary who worked with Danny Rand. Spidey--don't get me started! Our beloved Roger Stern was very wise to resolve that long ago. Dr. Strange? Come on! There's a reason why he only belonged to Marvel's non-team in the past.

Then there's Wolverine, the most over-exposed character in comics, bar none. He should be kept in the X-Verse where he belongs. There are very few characters out there who are a worse fit for a superhero team than Wolvie is for the Avengers. Just...GROSS!

And Hawkeye should be Hawkeye, dammit! Yeah, I know he was Goliath for awhile, so there's a precedent. But having him dress up like some ninja-wannabe just doesn't fit him at all! No reason to fix what ain't broke!

If nothing else, Mighty has a good Avenger-y lineup going for it. Yeah, maybe it's lineup is a little too retro in some ways, but there's the potential for some yarns to be spun to my liking. I'd grade the series a "B" so far, which is better than a lot of group titles I've read lately. Haven't read the most recent issue with the new storyline yet, but I'll let you know what I think!

Since this is an All Avengers thread, discussion of the New Avengers has a place here as well as in its own thread.

You know, I think you're dead-on Stealth about something I never thought of before. I don't think Bendis is that big a fan of Wolverine. Its almost really obvious when you see Logan in any of Bendis' stories. All he ever does is get his ass kicked and drink beer. Bendis doesn't know what to do with him but realizes it helps sell his title.

But yeah, he does like Spidey, Spider-Woman and Cage so they're not going anywhere. I've learned to live with it too.

Agree on Hawkeye--thats who he should be. My father, who collected the Avengers back when Clint became Goliath ABSOLUTELY HATES the Clint as Goliath thing. He'd be in complete agreement with you on that.

As to why I think Bendis has improved. There are several and some of them are hard to put into words. But I'll give it a go:

(1) He stopped acting like "I'm so damn cool with my Avengers comics". I think many of us can agree there was a sense of this early on. How can I prove it? Well, I can't, but I felt there was a little of that going on. But by now I feel like Bendis grew up a little. He's been writing an Avengers comic for 5 years and he's pretty much acknowledged he's as big an Avengers geek as anyone.

(2) Instead of shoving Luke Cage down our throats, he's put Luke through some serious situations that have created a sense of empathy, respect and overall general like for the character. I never thought I'd like Luke Cage and Bendis got me to do it--all the while knowing he was Bendis's favorite.

(3) His dialogue is clicking more now. He always walks a fine line on his titles: annoying & jarring vs. realistic and humorous. Lately it feels like the latter. I wonder if that has to do with who Bendis puts in the comic? I think the addition of Bucky/Cap made Bendis sit back and think "I better not screw up the way I write him" and he really thinks through those scenes. Now when Bucky/Cap is in a scene it feels right. He & Spider-Man have totally different viewpoints, disagree and yet are respectful to one another. I think he's done a good job there.

(4) He no longer has the pressure of having the only Avengers book, so he can put the team in situations he's more comfortable with. And obviously, that is street-oriented stuff, spy stuff, etc. And that's where he excels. Now, the latest issues fly completely against that, and I reviewed that earlier: he went for the magic-based battle with Dormanmmu (ha, spelled *that* wrong) and it the end result was a clunky mess that really felt "meh". But he's obviously trying to test himself by going that route. I give him credit for that, now he'll have to step back and make sure his next three stories are better before he ventures off into unknown territory again.

(5) He does things / scenes now that he didn't used to do and no one else is doing. For example: having a team meeting. Electing a leader. Working on strategies. Honestly, those things are about as "Avenger-y" as you can get. Slott isn't doing that stuff and many other teams forget about all that stuff too. It adds a layer of depth to the team that encourages them to *feel* like a team.

I could probably think of other ones but I think those are good.

As for Mighty Avengers, still haven't read it yet; I'm almost cringing. If its as bad as I'm hoping its not, it may be my final issue of the series.