posted
I think this sentiment emerged at the time in terms of how dystopian that future was. Perhaps we can revisit it when someone decides to reread the 3boot....
The reboot, on the other hand, presented a fairly bright future. Everything worked. There was no shortage of evil, but the essential structure of the society and most of the participants were sound and functioning. The Legion characters themselves were often shown having fun and particular introductions, such as Gates, were given lots of comic dialogue. Monstress also tended to be played for comedic effect.
posted
I disagree that the threeboot future was a dystopia. It was a stable, prosperous society. It had its problems, to be sure, but name a society that doesn't.
posted
If you mean name a society TODAY or in history that doesn't, well that's the whole point isn't it?
Point taken though, is that utopian and dystopian are thrown out so much by Legion fans but I'm not really sure what they consider to be utopian/dystopian on a personal level.
Even reading the ADV Legion, the words "perfect society" never came to my mind. To me it had many of the things that felt wrong to me about MY world, stereotypes and bigots.
What was hopeful to me was the general getting along of the teens. It was a club for good.
5YL obviously was meant to start out not hopeful and I was actually nervous about a freeking comic book but when the club started coming together I think that was the most exciting time for me in the entirety of the Legion run.
Reboot: hopeful
Threeboot: not hopeful, in fact the premise was about conflict.
That's MY take on the various versions.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: I disagree that the threeboot future was a dystopia. It was a stable, prosperous society. It had its problems, to be sure, but name a society that doesn't.
Possibly that's one of the things that put some fans off. Wham! Right out of the gate, you get: We live in prosperity and peace and we're so sick of it we could scream. Some readers were sitting there from Day One thinking, "Whoa! You've got one Hell of a fantastic life, People, and yet all you can do with it is fight, screw and complain!"
Which wasn't my reaction, personally, but I'm weird. (And I'd be curious to know how many fans who had that reaction are, or want to be, parents. Since that reaction is very much in line with what the protagonists are supposed to be opposing; readers should have been seeing through the eyes of "the kids," but ended up seeing through the eyes of "the parents," instead.)
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Oh, and since this thread is technically about the Reboot... [sigh] I only know it through segments I've been able to read online, so there's not much I can add there for now.
However:
I am inordinately amused at how many people complain because Projectra was re-envisioned as a snake. Yet, (if I remember some of the online pages I've seen correctly; feel free to whack me with a mallet if I'm wrong) this was the same take that had Cham's people's default form as essentially a giant breathing pyramid of shoestring potatoes-- and I have yet to hear anyone complain about that.
So, Today's lesson is: If you have to choose between bringing home a giant she-snake vs. a giant gender-neutral serving of sentient hashbrowns to meet your folks: Go with the hashbrowns.
(Will this be on the exam?)
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
The analogy doesn't hold up in this case I think, Cleome. Reasons behind Cham's form and the different default forms in durlan society were based upon good storylines. Sneckies wasn't even based at all.
HE thought that he would not have been accepted in non-human form and he had an alien look, which appeals to readers of science fiction. Snakes in space? Not so much.
There really wasn't a reason behind the snake. It seemed to me, a writer's attempt to "shock," which instead had the fanbase scratching their heads and Projectra fans offended. When the servant racoons showed up, well that was just jumping the shark. Perhaps there is some fairy tale somewhere upon which this was being based that would have led to some credibility. If so, it was not common knowledge and still isn't.
I think if a form had been chosen, which was stereotypically associated with illusion, maybe it would have worked, but still I doubt it.
A snake with robot arms. What were they thinking.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
(snip)
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: There really wasn't a reason behind the snake. It seemed to me, a writer's attempt to "shock," which instead had the fanbase scratching their heads and Projectra fans offended.
Okay, okay. Point taken. Though when I saw human Projectra as the illusion, I was more amused than offended. I always liked the idea of there being more non-humanoids getting the spotlight in stories. If nobody tried to ground the character change with some kind of reasoning, that's too bad. Then again, specious (no pun intended) reasoning abounds in "soft" SciFi when it comes to even human-appearing characters, their origin and powers, so I'm stil not sure it would bother me.
quote:I think if a form had been chosen, which was stereotypically associated with illusion, maybe it would have worked, but still I doubt it.
Well, snakes have historically been part of mysticism and conjuring acts. Might make an interesting story, actually. But I'm not versed enough in the Reboot to write it, unfortunately.
quote:A snake with robot arms. What were they thinking?
Well, she wanted to make her way in a world that wasn't set up for "people" like her. Much like Tellus had one boot ago. That by itself would probably hold my interest for at least a little while.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Arachne: The thing is, Tellus was truly alien, Jecka was a snake. A big snake, mind you, but still a snake. It's lacking something in originality.
That's why I always felt there was a missing issue or something. The snake thing, the racoons, it was all too... unexplained. Even that issue I think was hindsight in response to complaints though I may have my timeline mixed up.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
If they'd taken a snake as an original character, it might have worked, even with the mechanical arms. However, one still had images of Projectra - the history and powers were almost identical - confused with the snake and it was jarring.
My other problem with the snake was that she was so sweet. If she'd had more of a reptilian mind, as we understand it, it could have worked better for me. However, it's generally accepted that truly alien minds/characters don't work for people - we need a large human hook to catch onto. The most alien of the Legion characters - Tellus, Quislet - were used to some degree as critics of human/humanoid society. Jecka the Snake didn't fulfill that role; she fit right in. The only criticism she levelled was at her own society, which was straight out of Earth history - the oppressive rulers of a mistreated underclass, extracting resources under bad working conditions.
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: The most alien of the Legion characters - Tellus, Quislet - were used to some degree as critics of human/humanoid society.
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: If they'd taken a snake as an original character, it might have worked, even with the mechanical arms. However, one still had images of Projectra - the history and powers were almost identical - confused with the snake and it was jarring.
I totally agree. Send Princess Projectra back to Orando to rule her world, then introduce Cobra Lass from Serpentine as a NEW Legionnaire. The mindset that many Legionnaires had to be retconned was an idea that failed time and again, and a big reason why the reboots failed every time. Need a snake, introduce a NEW character. Need a mute or a kid on the team, introduce new characters and leave Saturn Girl and Invisible Kid alone.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Those characters like Sneckie are those I dread now that I'm through with "White Triangle" and know that there is lots of crap along the road: Coco the Monkey. Lori Morning. Snake Projectra. Monstress.
I remember that I felt that the book was starting to gain some momentum with White Triangle back in 94/95, but it went downhill after that storyline.
White Triangle was entertaining, with some great moments like the destruction of Trom and the death of Tinya (cheapened later, of course, by her resurrection). It was a little bit too hard on the Black & White side, meaning there was hardly any shades of grey, just good versus evil - which was true for most parts of the Reboot. It did not suffice that the Daxamites were hate-mongers to begin with - no, they had to be turned into lunatics by the lead-serum to make them even more evil. But for the most parts, White Triangle was quite good, though not outstanding. It was the first real storyarc - not just a two-parter like most of the Reboot stories before. It had built up slowly and went down with a bang.
What I relived though now reading it again was that the writing felt terribly rushed. Two examples: Kinetix has hardly joined, than looses her powers in a minor scene in the annual, and is leaving again, playing no part in White Triangle at all. Huh?
Then the relationship between Jo and Tinya. Well, there's love at first sight, that's nice. But then, after hardly having talked to each other more than twice, they already start behaving like an old married couple, bickering. And Tinyas mother is behaving as if they would have secretly married, though there was hardly more than a secret date happening.
Not to mention the healing of Saturn Girl: She has grown mad after entering a Durlan mind. Okay. And after the skilled Telepath Avon tried to heal her in vain, all she needs is Garth - whom she showed no sign of being in love with before - coming to her bed and tataaaaa, her mental health is restored! Now how did that happen?
As I already mentioned before, it's simplistic storytelling like this that cheapens the Reboot. It's a fun read, but it lacks any depth. I like the way characters like Violet, Brainy or Gim are developing, but too often, the plot is just too simple to really be memorable. That's probably the reason that I actually don't remembered any plotline of the Reboot except for White Triangle - and that one I also did only recollect in some parts (I did NOT remember the destruction of Trom - total surprise).
So that was the first year of the Reboot. Not as bad as I thought back in 1994, but certainly not a milestone in Legion history. Along the horizon in the second year: CROSSOVERS (*shudder*) with the 20th century...... Superboy and Underworld Unleashed. Let's see how long this reread keeps on entertaining me...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
I kinda skipped the reboot, having only read a few of the books, but when I first heard about a snake-Jectra and some maltreated raccoon servants, my first thought was of that lady from V who deep-throated a guinea pig (the sneckies keep them around to *eat!*) and the second thought was of what sort of clueless writer would choose to represent a slave race with sentient 'coons. It's like, 'wow.'
It would have been vastly more interesting if humanoid Projectra be tied into some Orandan mythology about a serpent-cult, and then retire to Orando only to be replaced on the team by a member of the subterranean 'secret race of illusionist sepent-folk' who originally taught the humanoid settlers their tricks of illusion in exchange for sharing Orando peacefully (with the humans on the surface, which the snakes never used anyway, and the snakes working underground, into which the humans of non-royal blood where forbidden to tread).
Orando gains a second sentient species, one that predates human arrival on the planet, and we've got a connection between the illusion powers of Projectra and the new snake-thing that shows up to take her place, as a representative of a species that has never before left their homeworld and has diplomatic status with the UP, as she is negotiating for her people to also be UP members (even if her *planet* already technically is a member!).
And why would she come out of hiding and the race declare itself now? Perhaps there is some danger below Orando that they cannot handle on their own, and, swallowing a thousand generations of self-sufficient pride, they have realized that they need to ask for help from the outside world (with human-Projectra having perhaps gone below ground to live among the serpents as a sort of 'hostage' for the safety of their own snake-princess, who has left the safety of the warrens to travel to entreat the UP for aid).
Boom. All tied together, with both a human Projectra still on Orando and a new snake-Jectra on the team, and a built-in plotline as the Legion is called upon to deal with whatever is lurking under Orando, threatening the snake-people (and, perhaps, the universe?). Once that plotline is dealt with, human Projectra can state that she must remain on Orando to deal with affairs of state, that her people have grown too accustomed to her being on-planet and that she has been reminded of the responsibilities that she had been shirking as a Legionnaire, and snake-Jectra will surprise her own insular people by saying that she *likes* being out of the warrens and out in the universe, and that she will remain the Ambassador to the Orandoss. Projectra deputizes her as Ambassador to *both* Orandan races (which may annoy some of the humanoid Orandans...), and the series continues with Snake-Jectra on the team (and with a 'princess' like status, due to her Ambassodorial mission), and Humanoid-Jectra back on Orando doing the Queen thing.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
CK''s description makes me think that the term Archie Legion is appropriate in more ways than one. Not only was Jeff Moy's art Archie-esque, but it sounds like the rushed, simplistic storytelling was also intended to reach the same type of audience: young, wholesome, uncomplicated. That could also explain why the "futuristic" setting seemed so retro.
DC probably didn't count on (or care) about us old-time Legion vets analyzing and dissecting the stories upon their publication, let alone a decade and a half after the fact.
They were clearly going for more light-hearted entertainment after the complex and multi-hued storytelling of 5YL. In The Legion Companion, editor KC Carlson said that the Legion had grown quite "ponderous" (his term) during 5YL with all the families, adult characters, subplots, etc. It sounds like the reboot was intended to be a complete 180-degree spin, so we have love at first sight (Jo/Tinya), love conquers all (Imra/Garth), and a snake with robot arms. Just the kind of things one might expect to find in an Archie comic (at least as I remember Archie comics being).
Yet for all the buzz about starting over, the creative teams or DC editorial still felt it necessary to bring back virtually all of the hallmark Legion characters, both heroes and villains, albeit in changed form. Were they trying to stradle the fence, pull in the new kids and appease the older fans? I guess we'll never know, but one memory that stands out is how characters kept being shoved off stage to make room for new additions: Kinetix, as CK noted, but also Garth getting expelled then recovering from losing his arm, etc. Then, of course, the team split into two: Team 20 and Team 30, which conveniently put 1,000 years between them.
The rapid-fire plots and subplots may also have been attempt to appeal to kids these days, who, some have argued, have shorter attention spans and prefer to read something exciting on every page, if they read at all. I don't know if this is true; however, two years ago, I brought in some Legion comics to the middle school ESL students I was tutoring. By far, they preferred the reboot issues (the "Time and Time Again" story, which CK is about to read) to the 1960s Adventure issues. Of course, it must be said that kids in the 1960s didn't have '90s-style comics to choose from. Still, it sounds as if the reboot was intended to capture kids who had so many other forms of entertainment to choose from.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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