posted
I bet the "love at first sight" was a consequence of "Everyone already knows it's going to happen..." One of the problems of telling a story twice: hurrying to get to the parts you want.
quote:The mindset that many Legionnaires had to be retconned was an idea that failed time and again, and a big reason why the reboots failed every time. Need a snake, introduce a NEW character. Need a mute or a kid on the team, introduce new characters and leave Saturn Girl and Invisible Kid alone.
Again, I think history's the cause. New characters have been a tough sell since about 1970, so writers seem more willing to do new versions of old characters. I would question if this principle is as valid for a team book, particularly one with little non-fan appeal. At least in the specific case of the Legion, it didn't work. Fans took entirely new characters better than new versions of old ones.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: Again, I think history's the cause. New characters have been a tough sell since about 1970, so writers seem more willing to do new versions of old characters. I would question if this principle is as valid for a team book, particularly one with little non-fan appeal. At least in the specific case of the Legion, it didn't work. Fans took entirely new characters better than new versions of old ones.
And I'm the complete freak there, in that I would much rather read about new characters, or, older characters that have grown and changed and adopted new roles, rather than the unchanging 'iconic' brand characters that can't so much as change their costume without it being an intellectual property / branding issue.
Roy Harper gone on to become Arsenal, and Oliver Queen retired? Bring it on. Hal Jordan dead and Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern? Yes, please.
A new generation of Legionnaires, with 'old faces' like Laurel Kent, Lamprey, Nightwind, Crystal Kid, etc. and some new faces, with the old guard either semi-retired or off-Earth completely dealing with more cosmic matters, having expanded the Legion to an real *Legion*, and the current roster being just the newly formed 'Earth sector branch?' Hell yeah.
I'd *so* much prefer that than yet another rehashing of the Saturn Girl / Lightning Lad relationship, or more drama about Rokk's leadership issues, or Brainy's inevitable decline into insanity, or whatever. I'd much rather have the Garth and Imra I grew up with be happy somewhere off-panel, perhaps active as part of a larger team, perhaps retired and raising Graym, than to see them breaking up or having freaky sexcapades with Ultra Boy, or having their kid(s) (and their marriage, like Peter and MJs) retconned out of existence to make them 'fresh' again.
But no, the cosmic reset button must be mashed, not because the readers fear change (the success of even more recent titles like the Runaways, Young Avengers or Thunderbolts, who introduced brand new teams of characters, instead of member 26 of the Bat-family or Wolverine clone 175, prove that), but because the editors fear 'trying something new' and want to desperately strip any sort of growth or development or maturization out of 'iconic' brand characters like Spiderman or Superman, rather than risk doing something *interesting.*
And so Mekt has to go back to being completely psychotic, abandoning decades of writing and characterization and development, so that Geoff 'ooh, aren't I special' Johns can retcon him into a googly-eyed man-crushing Superboy-Prime-worshipping member of the Legion of Prime Fanbois. Does Johns even know that Mekt got over his issues and was a productive member of society? Why the fear of allowing a character to grow and change?
[And what better way to cement a potential message that a character like Prime *could* be redeemed, than by showing that a former villain *can* get out of that life! But no, Johns has undercut his own premise by proving that *nothing* Prime does will matter, since he will just be made a villain again the cold second that some writer wants to use him as one. Any message of hope for redemption is *proven* meaningless by Johns own choice to use the already redeemed Mekt as an irredeemable villain.]
A fear of introducing new characters doesn't synergize well in an industry that *also* fears doing anything that hasn't already been done before with the pre-existing characters. It's just reprinting the same stories, over and over, with new creative teams.
Everything new is old again. You have a new clone body Charles Xavier? Well, the wheelchair is iconic, so we're gonna have to break your back. Nice new threads Spiderman, very sleek and new, too bad your new costume is evil! Able to control your powers, Scott Summers? That won't last. Nice new beard, Thor, and I like the armor! Oh, never mind. No more beard, no more armor. Hey, check it out, Aquaman has a hand again! And Oliver Queen is back! And Hal Jordan! And Barry Allen! And Bucky! (Bucky? Seriously?)
Meh. The industry is dying, and it's got nothing to do with a failure on the part of the audience. I blame it completely on reactionary misteps by the companies, desperately trying to reset the clocks and make all of their characters exactly the same as they were the last time they were profitable, as *going backwards* will somehow save them from obsolescence.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Well said, Set. I also would prefer a "next generation" Legion to a constant restart. I think the only book that manages to do so - sometimes - is JSA, where actually the first generation has mostly stepped aside or even died (and stayed dead). This approach would be much more epic than the fourth or fifth attempt to tell the same story with an oh-so-original new twist...
As for new twists: Read about seven issues today, and mostly what I got was retellings of classic stories: Lightning Lad losing his arm, Dr. Regulus creating Sun Boy, Mon-El being rescued from the Phantom, sorry, Stasis Zone. Hm. Though still entertaining, the constant reestablishing of stories that would not have to be reestablished if someone had not just erased them all instead of thinking of a better idea to salvage Legion Lore in the first place is somewhat annoying. Also, the crossover with Superboy was rather weak, mostly due to the lame villain Scavenger they had to fight. And Superboy boing a punk, obviously
What I also thought was rather unlogical was not to fill up the ranks of the Legion after their number was down to ten (with members like Lyle or Luronu not actually being power players). The president preventing strong members like Ultra Boy and Element Lad to join - rather silly. Or is this already part of the lukewarm Chu conspiracy I seem quietly to remember?
What I also observed was how quick I got through all these issues. Ten minutes, maybe 15 and another issue was done. By comparision, it took me about half an hour to work through the average issue of 5YL - and I liked that... more entertainment for your money... and by the way, as for He Who Wanders' school experiment: I also would guess that they like the newer issues better... there is far less text in it than in an average Silver Age book.
By the way, another example for rushed storywriting: It took Garth months to finally start to search for his brother. That was rather well written. Now he starts and tataaa, one issue later he has already found him. Now that was obviously not all thet difficult...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Also, the reboot books look better and that means something to teens. Modernize the ADV books, same exact story in the same number of issues but with updated dialogue, glossy paper and the newer art style and I'm betting the contest swings the other way.
"New generation" with new faces would be my preference, if not a return to a previous incarnation. Legion in 4009 instead of Legion replacements has a certain attraction to me.
Sooner or later I suppose, which legion are they descended from would come up, probably sooner. Still, I prefer that. JSA worked well with a next generation but I think that was because most of those that read JSA today never saw the original.
How many Titans have stuck with JLA? Would people read a JLA of Nightwing, Supergirl, that Guy in fishnets.... I don't think so. Readers are too familiar with what came before.
LSH 4009: that's the ticket. Just start all over with no reboot, save the new origin for say, issue 200. Just start right in on the action.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Also, the reboot books look better and that means something to teens. Modernize the ADV books, same exact story in the same number of issues but with updated dialogue, glossy paper and the newer art style and I'm betting the contest swings the other way.
You missed the complete failure of the Marvel Age line, when Marvel tried exactly that with Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, I presume?
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Also, the reboot books look better and that means something to teens. Modernize the ADV books, same exact story in the same number of issues but with updated dialogue, glossy paper and the newer art style and I'm betting the contest swings the other way.
You missed the complete failure of the Marvel Age line, when Marvel tried exactly that with Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, I presume?
I missed all of Marvel between 1966 and ... the time it takes me to post this.
BUT you're debating a different issue if I may say so. You're talking about the success of a concept and I'm talking about which of two Legions(neither of which might succeed) would be preferable to a certain age group. I've no doubt which of the two implementations, book, paper, language is closer to what today's kids are used to.
Well, it's an interesting thought experiment without possible resolution I suppose. My thinking is the pZH LSH was too immature for the kids I teach everyday and that they'd prefer either the simple life of the ADV Legion or the more mature Levitz Legion.
On the other hand, pZH did have some storylines and characters I think they'd like more.
Now that I think it some more, something that really ticks off the kids is when their books have pictures of kids doing Math instead of more mature teens and adults. Makes them feel dumb.
They might like the pZH Legion and even the 14-17 YO ages of the legionnaires but they'd have to actually look a little hardened. We just don't see a lot of cherubs around our neighborhood.
Think of a merging of "The Outsiders with guns" with LSH and I think we'd have a hit.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I made it up to "Legion Worlds" over the weekend - skipping "Legion of the Damed" and "Legion Lost" because I reread them on a fairly regular basis.
"Widening Rifts" was just as thrilling 10 plus years later. Everything has gone to hell and the Legion shines bright. Lots of heroic moments. Stargates were one of the better concepts introduced in the reboot and their corruption was used here to great dramatic effect.
"Universe Ablaze" came out about this time - so I took the opportunity to read it again. Huge Jimenez fan, here, so this was a great romp. The use of the Devil Fish was fun. The story left a little to be desired but overall the team up gets solid B.
I've only finished the Earth and Winath issues of Worlds. This series holds up. Reading the early DNA issues reminds me of how they built on concepts that were established early in the reboot. Yes, it was a change of direction. Yes, they wanted to do their own thing and had a vision totally different from their predecessors. They managed to get there without trashing what came before them. A far cry from the treatment they eventually received. Shooter tried the same approach with the 3boot and was treated just as poorly. Whatever happened to class?
[ July 13, 2009, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: What I also thought was rather unlogical was not to fill up the ranks of the Legion after their number was down to ten (with members like Lyle or Luronu not actually being power players). The president preventing strong members like Ultra Boy and Element Lad to join - rather silly. Or is this already part of the lukewarm Chu conspiracy I seem quietly to remember?
C'mon now, do you really want us to "re-spoil" it for you?
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
The reboot was good for what it was...it just wasn't really the Legion and it wasn't really new IMHO.
I do agree with one thing though, the best original characters created in the Legion since the Shooter/Grell era were created in the Reboot.
It was what they did with the Legionaires and Villains that weren't original that was the problem IMO...as an older reader, some of that stuff was flat out insulting.
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: What I also observed was how quick I got through all these issues. Ten minutes, maybe 15 and another issue was done. By comparision, it took me about half an hour to work through the average issue of 5YL - and I liked that... more entertainment for your money... and by the way, as for He Who Wanders' school experiment: I also would guess that they like the newer issues better... there is far less text in it than in an average Silver Age book.
Because Silver Age DC books told the story entirely through captions and dialogue, which often led to redundancy. All that exposition wasn't needed; the artists' work was generally as clear as it could be. "Moan! I'm in great pain - oh!" is excessive when we can see from Mon-El's pose that that's exactly what's happening. No artist, though, could explain the schemes Superman pulled off.
So, the reboot books at least didn't have decompression - stuff happened, often *too* quickly. But they didn't have density, which some other comics both older and newer have.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
"New generation" with new faces would be my preference, if not a return to a previous incarnation. Legion in 4009 instead of Legion replacements has a certain attraction to me.
....
LSH 4009: that's the ticket. Just start all over with no reboot, save the new origin for say, issue 200. Just start right in on the action.
DC did this with the Wildfire in the far distant future arcs for DC 1 Million and Tales of the Dead Earth. I kind of liked some of the concepts and wouldn't mind an on-going or mini based on those plus other characters but I would see these as a complement to the 30th/31st Century team not a replacement
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: "New generation" with new faces would be my preference, if not a return to a previous incarnation. Legion in 4009 instead of Legion replacements has a certain attraction to me.
[...]
LSH 4009: that's the ticket. Just start all over with no reboot, save the new origin for say, issue 200. Just start right in on the action.
Sounds like the Knights Tempus. Conveniently, threeboot Cosmic Boy is already on the scene.
posted
So what did I get today: The Underworld Unleashed crossover, a rather confusing story featuring Lori Morning. Oh my. Why they did have to introduce a token kid character to a book that was already heavy on teenage characters I just cannot understand. Did they not learn that all those Wesley Crushers and Boxeys just don't work?
The next few issues were rather good. The reintroduction of Starfinger (alias Jan Arrah - another one I totally forgot about) and the Suneater were amusing. What I really did like was the team dynamics: Colossal Boy is confronting Cos in an open, aggressive way. Lyle and the Espionage Squad do so in a "stealth mode". Some of the characters keep getting more interesting, especially Violet. Off-planet, Kinetix and Valor do live through their own adventures, though why Valor did need a few issues to get the idea to simply get out of his iconic costume to go undercover is probably just weak storywriting.
I also liked the fact that the Legion got more and more shorthanded. With XS lost in the 20th century - my least favorite character missing in action, probably one reason why I enjoyed these last issues so much - and Brainy in prison, they were down to eight members.
But suddenly, Gates and Star Boy joined - off panel. Why did these two get the okay and Ultra Boy and Element Lad did not? Maybe this Chu story again, let's wait and see. Gates at least is fun. He certainly is also quite one-dimensional like most of the others, but his political bickering is funny. Did they ever tell the story how they made him join after he was so antagonistic during Gims first draft attempt?
On another notice, the art did get more consistent in my eyes. Still Manga influenced, but Moder at least got his grip on the Legion. Also, the constant change of inkers on Moys art stopped. After these issues, Stern was coming on board, so... is he the one to blame for later "insults", to quote Superboy above, like Coco and Snakey?
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: But suddenly, Gates and Star Boy joined - off panel. Why did these two get the okay and Ultra Boy and Element Lad did not? [...] Did they ever tell the story how they made [Gates] join after he was so antagonistic during Gims first draft attempt?
Because each planet got one and only one representative, and they had to be officially selected (Element Lad's planet no longer HAD a government and so wasn't eligible, and Ultra Boy had nothing to do with whatever "government" Rimbor had). Exact same reason Live Wire got booted when Spark turned up.
In this case Star Boy was a direct replacement for Kid Quantum I as Xanthu's member, and Gates was already entered as Vyrga's representative. It just took them that long to actually force him to get into a shuttle to Earth.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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