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Well, I wanted to at least wait for one full page of replies before responding. And as it happens, this begins a new page. I've been concerned in the DCMBs past that my own enthusiasm for Dawny has (wordily) trampled on what others say about the character.
[LardLad] {[...] So what if Dawnstar could be brought back elsewhere in the DC Universe? We're talking essentially the same character, up and down, except that she'd probably be in the present-day DCU and not a Legionnaire. }
In the present-day DCU, no, I don't see it. What would not be present is her context, the place that created and shaped her: Starhaven, very clearly -- if in a fragmented way, as its details were told -- an Earth settlement.
Dawnstar was both of Earth, in a distant way, and yet clearly apart from Earth, and that made for one notable strand of her outlook. She didn't have to accept everything that was given to her about how the Legion, a largely Earth-shaped institution, was set up and justified. At times, she was dubious of all aspects of the U.P. as an Earth-centered civilization. (See her comments in "LSH" v3 n28 and Annual 4, especially.)
Others in the Legion could share that detachment, of course, in not being from Earth. Yet few have remarked on Starhaven being almost the only pre-boot Earth colony of the Legion era, at least outside the Sol system.
Others came from planets that -- in the great, needed illogic of serial storytelling for us humans -- developed humanoids without having any ties to Earth life. Dawnstar was really the only Legionnaire who could have a great degree of ironic detachment. She didn't have to be attached to the foibles of Earth -- it wasn't the planet that shaped her. And yet the irony came from her genetics and ancient cultural heritage, both however re-engineered, having begun on Earth.
All of this creative tension or layering would be lost in the present era, within DC fiction, or even outside it -- where we have no such colonies. (Damn those NASA bureaucrats, I say.) Dawny's aspect of being on the outside in some ways, but not in others, among those on Earth wouldn't be possible.
It'd be a subtle loss, but still a loss. She'd simply be a wholly alien visitor, merely of a different kind ... unless she was made into a current-day genetic creation. And that would have its own new set of strengths and weaknesses, as we've seen with Kon-el/Superboy.
{ For instance, she shows up in a JLA or Teen Titans spacefaring mission, is intrigued by them and accepts their offer to join. }
If she did, and was in substantially her full, winged pre-boot form, it would take too much explanation. She'd be, essentially, an Earth variant with no ties to Earth.
That tactic was frequent in the Golden Age, at least possible in the Silver Age, but wouldn't pass muster with comics readers today, raised from an early age on more realistic SF. This isn't involving a "Star Wars" parallel galaxy "far, far away," but our own.
In another irony, this would make a Shikari showing up in the present day much more acceptable, and less in need of extensive explanation -- the (obligatory) breasts on an insectoid-humanoid woman notwithstanding.
{[...] Is some Dawny better than no Dawny if she's essentially the same character, portrayed the right way? Or is it Dawny in the Legion, or no Dawny at all? }
I don't see her being from the present day as even being Dawny, in many essentials. It's Dawny in the Legion's time and setting, at least, if the character as previously written is to make much sense. She doesn't have to be in the Legion directly, but she'd have to be a part of that far different culture.
With all of this being said, I contend that a character quite similar to Dawny could nonetheless be compelling, and could be a vivid addition to those interacting with the JLA or Titans. Dean Lee, who hasn't weighed in here yet, imagined and described an extensive scenario about her having come to Earth as an intrigued long-range observer, adopting the cultural trappings of the Indians of the northwest U.S./Canadian coast, and having some provocative heroic encounters with Superman.
I would dearly love to see such stories. (I hope Dean will one day at least sketch one, as I've urged him to do.) They would be fascinating and provocative. They also, though, to me, wouldn't really involve "Dawnstar." Not in the sense of the character that we've already seen.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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Shorter responses to others ... and my periodic apology goes out for quote-and-reply, which isn't the best way to respond, but better avoids missing the nuances of what others say.
[Estimate Lad] {[...] I can see that after Animal Man's guest appearances in Hawkman, Dawny could quite easily turn up there for a story arc. }
She could, and I'd love seeing her -- but some of her distinctiveness would be lost in other ways. Most of all, in her wings and flight being inherent qualities and abilities, not ones that the two Hawks (apart from the drive to reincarnate) are able to literally put on and take off as needed. The new "Hawkman" and "JSA" titles have tried to get away from any sense of genetics tying those flight-and-fight abilities to their focus characters. Dawnstar's presence would be a step back from this, I fear, from those writers' perspectives.
[Fat Cramer] {[...] I don't know why she couldn't appear in another book -- or as an occasional appearance in the Legion, a character with whom they work for specific cases. }
I've long suggested that Dawny and Kari would do well as a team of complementary-talented investigators, on call and frequently working with the Legion. (Even with the name "Celestial Investigations Ltd", to allude to your thread on privatizing Legion matters -- this would be a start.) The tracker and the pathfinder, respectively. Shikari would have to be more verbally adept than she's been shown thus far, I'd say, but it could work. A spin-off title or special issues would also be feasible with such a combination of winged ladies.
[Faraway Lad] {[...] We simply have not yet met her. }
That's what I'm pinning my own hopes on, with her someday being at least shown in the current setting. DnA say they want more characters on the periphery, but they haven't yet followed through much at all. I suspect this will wait -- despite their professing an admiration for Dawnstar -- for a successor writer or writing team.
[EDE] { You know ... I hate to say this, [...]}
I'm curious -- why do you say that? Are you generally not in favor of such individual spotlights? Or is it from Dawny not being among those you'd rather see in one of them?
{[...] but I almost am inclined to think that Dawnstar could sustain her own series. She's certainly one of visually most striking Legionnaires (hence her inclusion in Crisis), and her powers by nature can incline a lot of really interesting plots. }
She could, indeed, fuel at least a mini-series, if the writers were imaginative for her. (I'll second Blockade Boy on this being essential.) Personally as well as professionally, that is. Levitz tried, often heroically, and I'm the last to fault him, but even he fell back on extending the relationship she had with Wildfire beyond what they could sustain, until it (literally, in some ways) burned out. A similar relationship at the core of another series would need many more variations and much more expressed passion between her and others, Significant and not.
As for "Crisis," she was visually striking, indeed -- even when in Superman's arms -- but I'd like to think that her unique talents were part of what made Harbinger bring her to that setting. Much of the plot involved simply finding what was going on in the first place.
[Blockade Boy (seconded by DevEm)] {[...] An ancestor, sure, like in L.E.G.I.O.N. with Shady, but that is all I'd care to read. }
Even with my having read little of what was also called "Leg Iron," I could easily imagine that working. Perhaps, in those far earlier (as against the LSH) genetic-reworking days, with an ancestor having actual flight-in-air-limited wings and related abilities, such as superpowered eyesight.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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[DrakeB3003] {[...] Someone suggested some time ago that she could be included in a rebooted Wanderers, which could be a cool alternative to being in the Legion. }
It could work, and quite vividly, if handled with well-developed conflict. The origin would have to be more cool, I'd say, than what they cooked up for the Wanderers on the second go-round -- that of their being clones of the originals, inherently flawed by that fate, and seeing either answers or revenge. On their first appearance, it was left vague. Neither situation would do a reappearing Dawnstar justice.
[Lardy, disdaining the Academy and other scenarios] {[...] Dawnstar's not likely to get a spot in the Legion, so all you have to do is look at the reboot's track record for finding a place for preboot characters. }
You have a point, and the imagination hasn't been as fertile by any means, though DnA have shown more life than earlier reboot writers. Yet I don't seen that as being a limitation specific to the Legion. Few books manage character-building interludes or side plots at all, in the sense and scope that Levitz did. Unless the book is nearly all characterization, as has often been true with Alan Moore's "Promethea."
{[...] I mean, Dawny is one of those few characters who may work better outside the Legion. She was more an outsider, really. }
Her personality would work as more of a semi-detached loner, yes. That's usable with many teams, contrasting or joining in. Outside of the Legion, though, or pulled into the 21st Century, she'd lose the subtler dimensions I mention earlier, and it wouldn't be "the same" Dawnstar.
{[...] Perhaps, you don't want to be bothered to pick up another title to see her? }
Others might not, but as for me {g} ... I think you may be overestimating how many will pursue outside appearances. More would be likely to get a title that pairs Dawny with one other Legionnaire. Exponentially more, if two or three others joined her. (I was disappointed that so few in the Legion were brought in, beyond the founders, for contrast in the '80s four-parter "Legionnaires 3.")
[MLLASH] {[...] I'd be aghast to see her in TEEN TITANS (she'd be killed in some insipid fashion) or JLA (where the fanboys would scream, "Why not Hawkgirl/Woman?!?" until they offed her). }
Although LardLad wonders about your "afterburn" (just a tad raw in imagery, Lardy amigo), I entirely agree with your reservations. Death has become too casual, and this includes DnA and "Legion Lost." I also fear that the Women in Refrigerators syndrome is wholly underrated, with years having passed since this (unadmitted) misogyny has been identified in comics.
Perhaps the re-cast "Titans" are going to be less casual about heroes' deaths, from the vibrations I get in the first issue of the new series. I hope so. For the sake of "The Legion," as well.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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[Greybird] {In the present-day DCU, no, I don't see it. What would not be present is her context, the place that created and shaped her: Starhaven, very clearly -- if in a fragmented way, as its details were told -- an Earth settlement.}
Grey, this seems to be the crux of why yo would object to Dawny becoming part of the modern DCU. Well, it seems pretty easily fixable in one of two ways:
1) Dawny as a time traveller---if Star Trek can be used as an example, apparently there are temporal anomalies all OVER the damn place in outer space, many of which lead right to modern-day Earth! Dawny falls victim to one of these ever-present menaces, and here we go.
So Dawny is still from Starhaven, which could still essentially be what we've come to know from the preboot. Therefore Dawny and her background are intact, but she's a (to use a terrible analogy) fish out of water. Essentially, she can still be the character we all remember.
or...
2) We reboot Starhaven some...instead of it having been an Earth colony, a tribe of Native Americans (possibly pre-1492) are abducted by aliens and allowed to settle on their own world as an experiment. Well, over the next 500 years, the culture on that world (named "Starhaven") grows. They gain their independence and, with the alien remnant technology, become a superiorly advanced planet (compared to Earth) that nonetheless still holds the Native American values and respect for nature. And they get the wings too, either through alien experimentation or some other factor.
It wouldn't exactly be the Starhaven we remember, but it could be pretty damn close. And it would logically explain the things that wouldn't work for you because Starhaven belonged in the future.
So would either of those scenarios change your opinion, Grey? Feel free to critique both as you see fit.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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[Greybird] {Although LardLad wonders about your "afterburn" (just a tad raw in imagery, Lardy amigo)...}
All I meant to imply was how fans felt "burned" by the death of these longtime characters. Did Donna literally get burned to death somehow? I didn't pick up "Graduation Day", so I have no idea how she was killed off.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by LARDLAD: Did Donna literally get burned to death somehow? I didn't pick up "Graduation Day", so I have no idea how she was killed off.
She died while fighting a Superman robot. The narration was all about her being a warrior who runs toward the battle rather than shirk from it. She saves Nightwing and Arsenal from it, rips off its arm and starts to pummel it (its on the ground and she's kinda straddling it), but then it nails her with eye-beams that go straight through her chest.
However, she's seen "reborn" somehow (I don't know enough about her new origin where she apparently is reincarnated all the time) looking exactly the same on some alien world about to join another battle.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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Lardy suggested "Dawny as a time traveler." I've grown dubious of time travel, though, and it's from the same reason as I noted about her not having Starhaven as her context.
If she, or any character, is thus ripped out of her setting and civilization, the story thread then tends to come from one of two sources. Either "getting back home" rules the hero's concerns, or the comic and tragic contrasts of a "fish out of water" rule what's shown about the hero.
As an occasional bit of spice, that works, if it's made halfway plausible or is glossed over with pseudo-science or "magic" of sufficient skill. As a constant story premise, though? I'd say the original example of Superboy being in the Legion is enough to show its weaknesses .. in this case, by not using either of those strains, very often or very well.
Kal made the 1,010-year commute constantly, and yet it was surprising how little was made of the opportunity. Didn't the contrast of 2900s ultra-tech and 1950s pre-electronics ever bother him? Wasn't he tempted to bring some of the boons of the 30th Century -- such as cures for cancer -- back with him? Would he have had enough common reference points -- due to his low-tech life experiences -- to even be that interesting for the Legionnaires to talk with? (Historical fascination excepted, on both sides.)
All such conflicts and anachronisms were simply discarded, it seemed, for nearly all his time with the Legion. The kid transplanted himself a millennium hence, had some adventures, reversed his travel ... and that was that.
When it made so little point with Superboy, I can't see it making much point with Dawnstar. And especially not on a permanent basis, where the yearning for home, family, and a comprehensible advanced culture would have become overpowering.
As for Lardy's "rebooting Starhaven" scenario, it's entertaining and even highly plausible, as a contrast to the present DC Earth. In fact, that ends up elaborating on what Dean Lee separately suggested for her, in a highly imaginative manner.
I like it enough that I'd be ravenous about the prospects of seeing it. What it really wouldn't be, though, is a tale of "Dawnstar." In this case, she'd be pulled away from being a Legionnaire, with all the interplays of teamwork, of loyalty, of cohesion and contrast with others. This Dawny would be fascinating, heroic, and compelling. Yet she still wouldn't be the same.
Don't get me wrong, by the way. I'd rather see her being matched against the present-day DCU in some way -- assuming that she had nearly the same set of personal qualities -- than not see her again at all. Subtle strengths and textures would be lost, though. Part of me would rejoice, and part of me would be dismayed.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Greybird: When it made so little point with Superboy, I can't see it making much point with Dawnstar. And especially not on a permanent basis, where the yearning for home, family, and a comprehensible advanced culture would have become overpowering.
What do you think of Ferro as a time traveler then? He had no connections to this time except his bro (who's now dead) and his mom (who disowned him). Him being out of time hasn't really come up at all after the initial "gee whiz" of it.
Come to think of it, does Ferro know interlac at this point, does he have a telepathic plug or did Imra give him a "crash course?" I don't remember if they said.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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Ferro -- whom I suspect has a telepathic plug -- probably has fewer reasons to yearn for the past, but it was still his culture and a familiar set of surroundings. I'd think he would have some sleepless nights, wondering if he'd ever adjust to the new world he chose to enter, and pondering whether he'd ever want to go back.
Time travel rarely falls apart quite as much in its storytelling when it's a one-way forward ratchet. That goes back at least to "Rip Van Winkle," very much a story from the Enlightenment, where progress was assumed to be positive -- or at least benign.
It still requires much more apparatus to tell properly, though ... if the character's difficulties are touched on at all, rather than largely assumed away, as seems to have happened with Ferro.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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I guess, Grey, that if Dawnstar comes back, in or out of the Legion, you can probably expect that she won't be your Dawny. All rebooted Legion characters have from mild to pretty large differences from their preboot originals. Dawny may return sans Starhaven altogether. She may return simply as a mutant Native American from Earth. Or perhaps her personality will be quite different from the old portrayal, a la Andromeda.
But essentially, my topic postulates that the character will be essentially the same (realistically leaning largely toward the "mild" part of the spectrum in the differences from preboot scale).
So the bottom line is if the character is essentially the same (that would imply that Starhaven is still in place), would you ultimately be "for" or "against" her returning in the modern DCU? I would say, from your latest response, that the answer would be "yes"...though with some reservations.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Speaking as a big WILDFIRE fan, I can totally accept him the way DnA has treated him regardless of the new shitty origin. I've seen others who feel differently, however. I don't know if that makes them bigger fans of the preboot version or if I'm a bigger fan for overlooking the new origin and simply being glad that he's back with basically the same personality, but I know I'm never going to see the same Wildfire as he was preboot.
Maybe the fact that he was totally absent for most of TMK and when he did come back, he was altered in some other grotesque way alters my feelings, but my enjoyment doesn't hinge so greatly on his past as it does his present.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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If you're responding to your own genuine passions, Drake, that's all the "bigger" fan one needs to be, methinks. Comparing sizes of parts of one's mental anatomy with others gets me even more pissed off than doing so for one's physical anatomy. And, frankly, I feel about both as William Holden said in "Network" about the latter: "I stopped doing that back in the second grade."
Lardy asked for my bottom line on the return of a Dawnstar with no more than mild differences from her classic qualities. I would still resist describing her being without either Starhaven or the Legion as being a "mild" difference, but otherwise -- yes, of course I'd want to see her, even with losing one of both of those elements.
I'd have reservations, as Lardy says. The past is never "brought back" perfectly, and you can only even try to do that in art in the first place, not "real life." Still, Dawny is simply too beautiful, and, I'd say, too resonant, to lose forever from these ongoing stories.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Greybird: If you're responding to your own genuine passions, Drake, that's all the "bigger" fan one needs to be, methinks.
Right -- I'm just speaking about my own case about how I feel about Wildfire coming back altered from what he was.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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