posted
Jim Shooter apparently disagrees with that assessment, as do I.
“I still recognized them. It was coming home.”.
And he seems to be pretty confident he can make it work -- not only as *a* Legion of Super-Heroes but as *the* Legion of Super-Heroes.
I dare say if you grew up with the Legion Shooter grew up with -- which aces the WaK Legion in every conceivable form of punkitude and super-d!ckery, you might see the current incarnation differently.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Zero Kahn: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: I think Waid had a sound plan. I think the editors didn't. Lots of the errors were editing mistakes.
I think Waid did fine using Legion elements. I consider this a real Legion. I hated the underagers vs. adults thing. I think he focused to much on it. I know the Adventure Legion was popular but I think guys like Waid want to continue to go back to that. I'm tired after ZH and now again of starting all over. I rather read back issues of the Adventure era...they are better.
I am so glad the LS Legion is around cause that's more my style.
I think Waid falied completly. I think there is one sure fire way to tell if a writer actully gets the characters and teams he is writing or not. If you can subsitute old charcters with brand new ones and not have it affect the story in any way then to me they really dont' "get" the book they are writing. With Waids 3boot he could have set his book just a hundred years in the future and made up all new characters and the book would have read the exact same way. There was not one thing besides the names that made it feel anything like the Legion of Super Heroes. [/QUOTE
Oh I agree he failed pretty badly. Completely? I guess I just always thought he wasn't doing anything that would screw a later writer. But I do agree with all your points. You can just remove the characters and sub them with other characters and it wouldn't change anything.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:You can just remove the characters and sub them with other characters and it wouldn't change anything.
That's a tough standard. I think you could apply that to almost any story ever written.
For that matter, look at the Spirit. Most Spirit stories could easily be stories about anybody. Does that mean Eisner failed? It does not.
Mark Waid had a take on the Legion that some people didn't like, and they didn't want to look deeply enough to see the quite subtle characterization that was very much there. The sales of the book rose, but not as much as DC wanted. I am disinclined to call the experiment a failure.
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: I disagree. We don't know what Waid and Giffen, or for that matter Shooter and Levitz, are thinking. We know what shows up in the comics, and sometimes we know what they say in interviews. Let's not try to turn artistic criticism into moral or intellectual judgment. [/QB]
It's not 'though. Saying that John Byrne is a misogynistic twit or that Stan Lee is touched in the head is a moral or intellectual judgement (right or wrong).
But saying that Waid failed to capture the Legion as spectacularly as Rob Liefield failed to capture the New Mutants is not a moral or intellectual judgement. It's purely an artistic, and therefore subjective, judgement.
And, given the 'artistic' success of figures like Kid Rock, Marilyn Manson and the Backstreet Boys, I think we can all agree that artistic judgements are very subjective. Just because *I* didn't like the Threeboot, overall (despite liking specific bits, like the Naltorian PreCops or Theena), doesn't mean that *nobody* is allowed to like it.
Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Set: It's not 'though. Saying that John Byrne is a misogynistic twit or that Stan Lee is touched in the head is a moral or intellectual judgement (right or wrong).
But saying that Waid failed to capture the Legion as spectacularly as Rob Liefield failed to capture the New Mutants is not a moral or intellectual judgement. It's purely an artistic, and therefore subjective, judgement.
That's fine. If anyone wants to criticize Waid's threeboot on artistic grounds, that's cool. (If anyone entirely dismisses Waid's threeboot, on any grounds, I'll have an objection to it. But it's in bounds.)
quote:And, given the 'artistic' success of figures like Kid Rock, Marilyn Manson and the Backstreet Boys, I think we can all agree that artistic judgements are very subjective. Just because *I* didn't like the Threeboot, overall (despite liking specific bits, like the Naltorian PreCops or Theena), doesn't mean that *nobody* is allowed to like it.
Right, but the kind of stuff I have a problem with is statements like, "Finally, real Legion fans have something to read, because Geoff Johns has brought the Legion back and it's only a matter of time before they replace Waid's impostors." That's not criticism; it's just dismissal and self-centeredness, and I'm losing patience with it. (I made up that quote, but I didn't make up the sentiment.)
posted
I expect that Mr Shooter will make the Legion "magnificent" again, but the past is past. I would like the Legion to be "out there" where everything and anything, any kind of story really, was possible. Science fiction,super-heroics, even mystical fantasy. I miss that last one quite a lot. I also miss the optimism the Legion had. Its central message was, as far as I'm concerned, "Finally, humanity did something right. The universe is not perfect but it can be. Let's see what's out there and what we can do to make a difference". As a Star Trek fan I can't help but see the 30th century as Trek's future, in some ways.
Stil, as I said above, the past is past. Comic book storytelling has evolved and what was amazing in the past may not be so amazing today. I *am* kind of tired with the Legion being involved in endless politics and conspiracies, I *was* tired of the "military", "gritty" outlook on the future.
I don't want the Legion to be "airy-fairy" (not that it ever was)and the WaK Legion has/had some very, very good points. The Legion as a catalyst for social change was good, for one.
I happened to read a blog entry in Matthew E's excellent blog. His insights are amazing but this particular entry left me agape for like 10 minutes.
Here's the link: http://legionabstract.blogspot.com/2006_11_09_archive.html If you don't read this blog, start reading it! You'll be glad you did! After reading this entry I felt really dumb. I had noticed the similarity in the Klar's name to you-know-whose, but I construed the entire scene in a completely different and rather prejudiced, as it turned out, way. This was a brilliant instance of Mr Waid's writing and the symbolism is also quite apparent if one wants to see it for what it was.
Matthew E's commentary made me see a side of WaK's Legion I had dismissed before. Shady's action was not the action of a "spoiled super-powered brat" but of a "real" Legionnaire! On the other hand, there have been instances in WaK Legion that alienated me (and a lot of other people, it seems). The infamous "eat it, grandpa" or Sun Boy's dismissal of his parents' willingness to be part of this "revolution" almost bordered on prejudice.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I got many "conflicting signals" from the WaK Legion. Not that I ever hated it or dismissed it outright, but something never felt quite "right" and I believe it was those discrepancies I gave examples of that alienated me the most. Were they editorial decisions or was Mr. Waid trying to make a point that was misunderstood by many fans? I have no answer to that.
Anyway, I'll definitely reread, very carefully, the WaK run more "detachedly" (is this a word?)
But I know one thing. I want/expect/hope Mr. Shooter will take the Legion where no Legion has ever gone before ( ) *without* losing all the good stuff - symbolic or otherwise - WaK Abnett/Lanning brought into the book.
What I really wish though is for DC to realise that the Legion is the Legion and let it evolve and grow without any more reboots! Yes, that's my fondest wish (and the opposite is my worst nightmare as far as my fave comic is concerned).
That's what I want the Legion to be like. Stable and evolving like it was in decades past!
[ October 05, 2007, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Right, but the kind of stuff I have a problem with is statements like, "Finally, real Legion fans have something to read, because Geoff Johns has brought the Legion back and it's only a matter of time before they replace Waid's impostors." That's not criticism; it's just dismissal and self-centeredness, and I'm losing patience with it. (I made up that quote, but I didn't make up the sentiment.)
Stop it! Your getting me all exciting about Geoff's LS Legion again!
And by no means do I want any Legion "replaced". With creators like Shooter and Geoff...I'm in heaven.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Dain, thanks for re-posting link to Matthew's Blog.
Matthew, I must have missed this one (I admit that I've probably read about half your blog posts). Amazingly informative, as usual. Wow, I felt like a sap
Shooter's above quote which Troumium posted continues to re-enthuse (word?) me for his run on the Legion.
I'm also greatly looking forward to John's story in Action about the 'pre-crisis Legion diverged timeline' otherwise known as the Lightning Saga Legion.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Right, but the kind of stuff I have a problem with is statements like, "Finally, real Legion fans have something to read, because Geoff Johns has brought the Legion back and it's only a matter of time before they replace Waid's impostors." That's not criticism; it's just dismissal and self-centeredness, and I'm losing patience with it. (I made up that quote, but I didn't make up the sentiment.)
I bolded the only part of the above quote I'd have a problem with. It's one thing to be dismissive of a particular character, story arc or creative teams work (we all have preferences after all, I never cared for Matter-Eater Lad or Chemical King, for instance, and around here, them's fightin' words!), and another thing to be dismissive of *other fans.*
My creative writing teacher in college would make us read our poetry / fiction in class, and then sit quietly while the rest of the class discussed it. We weren't allowed to talk at all while they discussed it, since, as he stressed, if we had to *explain it,* it wasn't a successful piece of writing. The whole Klar thing mentioned above is a prime example. If someone needs to explain to me why Waid's writing has depth, then he didn't to a great job of showing that. I didn't need anyone to explain to me what V for Vendetta or the Watchmen or Ennis' run on Swamp Thing meant, so I don't think it was *my fault* for not 'getting' what Waid was doing.
Fans of Buffy will be familiar with this sort of thing, as Joss would have panels at conventions *explaining* why Buffy's sacrifice in the Gift didn't call a new Slayer, or why Spike wanted a soul, or why Dawn wasn't a Slayer. I like a lot of what the man has written, but in many cases, he flat-out *failed* to present his story on the screen, and so had to resort to explaining to us what we had seen, since the fans were 'getting it wrong.'
Even if I *am* a moron, and 'didn't get Waid's awesome writing,' I'm still gonna be dismissive of his work here.
It's a poh-tay-to, puh-tah-to thing, I think.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
"Every conceivable form of punkitude and super-d!ckery"! Boys and girls, argue with Trom at your own peril!
She's right, though. The Legionnaires were often super-jerks, even after Shooter started writing them. It's not revisionism to view Adventure #247 as a study in elaborate cruelty. It's ALSO true that at times the Legionnaires really cared about each other and gave their all for each other (witness Lightning Lad's original death and resurrection). I DO fault Waid for not enough genuine, irony-free moments of the latter, but he was hardly violating precedent with the former. As touching as John's portrayal of Superman's recollections were in "Lightning Saga," look at what those Legionnaires were ACTUALLY doing: hatching a secret conspiracy that involved misleading their dear old friend. Again, this was completely true to form, but some seem to miss that important point.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Well, I don't subscribe at all to the notion of "real" Legion, "real" Legion fans etc. I really don't like this kind of polarization in general. Of *course* my fave Legion is the 70s/80s one, and it was great seeing them again in Lightning Saga, and I'm super-excited about their upcoming appearance in Action Comics and the prospect of a more "permanent" presence (a new title). A few people thought the discrepances in Lightning Saga were "suspect". I prefer to call them "mystifying". It's just a matter of perspective. I don't want the WaK Legion to disappear though. I don't want it to be replaced by the "classic" Legion, and I particularly don't want a reboot. Mr. Shooter said he isn't going to replace the WaK Legion with another version and I hope he really meant it.
Let me explain: It'd be fantastic to have the classic Legion (note that I don't use the words real or even original Legion) in their own magazine, and yes! in an either/or situation I'd go with the classic one instead of the WaK Legion, but it'd feel like a pyrrhic victory to me. Not only I'd miss the WaK Legion, not only we'd have fewer Legion stories, but a replacement of that Legion with the classic one by another reboot would dampen my enthusiasm considerably because it'd mean that *any* Legion, classic or otherwise, could and most probably *would* be replaced down the road by another one, and another one. Maybe that's why I find the myth of Sisyphus one of the scariest in Greek mythology (He went to Tartarus, the netherworld, where he is forced to roll a block of stone against a steep hill, which tumbles back down when he reaches the top. Then the whole process starts again, lasting all eternity).
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Set: The whole Klar thing mentioned above is a prime example. If someone needs to explain to me why Waid's writing has depth, then he didn't to a great job of showing that. I didn't need anyone to explain to me what V for Vendetta or the Watchmen or Ennis' run on Swamp Thing meant, so I don't think it was *my fault* for not 'getting' what Waid was doing. [...] Even if I *am* a moron, and 'didn't get Waid's awesome writing,' I'm still gonna be dismissive of his work here.
That's fair, but I would say two things:
1. I think that we, as comics readers, often don't read carefully enough to get everything out of the stories that we could get. I like noticing stuff like the thing with Klar's glasses, and I'm going to try hard to understand more things like that, because I think it's interesting, and after all I'm paying good money for these comics.
2. What the thing with Klar's glasses (as well as other things) shows is that, whatever else you can say about Waid's work on this title, it's not accurate to say that this was one-buttocked hackwork. We could argue about how well Waid achieved the things he was trying on different levels, but there are those who will deny entirely that he was working on any level other than the superficial, and those people are, as a matter of straight fact, wrong.
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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) *without* losing all the good stuff - symbolic or otherwise - WaK Abnett/Lanning brought into the book.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Boys and girls, argue with Trom at your own peril!
