posted
Hell even when Gerry Conway and Joe Staton did the Legion it had more fan support than any of the Re-Boots.
You take away the Loyal Fans who stuck with the Legion after they dismantled it starting with The Pocket Universe Story and then those who stayed after all the Retcons and Re-Boots.
I doubt those Legion's would ever have even gotten past their first year,Just look at all the other titles in comics that have never made it.
The Original Legion never got cancelled due to poor sales,It even took two titles away from it's most recognizable member Kal-El,And was one of DC's better selling titles for almost 30 years.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fun discussion, one of my favorite Legion debates too.
Superboy seldom actually enhances a story but the familiar always has a chance of attracting a casual reader to try the title.
Honestly I always like Kal being used sparingly and being shown as being humbled in the presence of his equals the inclusion of the character both humanizes Kal-El and lends prestige to the team. In the Legion he's not always the toughest, the smartest or the fastest. He's just one of the guys. Virtually a different character than the ultra-competent king of the super heroes depicted in other Superman comics. I find him WAY more likeable as an insecure teenager.
I don't seem to be alone in that either. I really enjoyed the recent scenes of young Clark being a misunderstood loner and the object of ridicule by the popular jock IN crowd. Poor Clarkie. I feel for the guy. Lucky thing for him he met some other super powered kids to hang out with, eh?
But that's not really the point to adding the S shield into the title. The idea was always to persuade the regular public to throw down 12 or 15 cents, later a quarter and now $3-$5 for a Supersomebody comic book. When the Legion reads well and keeps the super teen on the covers we tend to keep those extra fans around. IMO it takes a heck of a lot more work to keep the buying public interested with the book as a stand-alone. If Superman sells the book then why force it?
This quote is from Stan Lee and has nothing to do with the Legion yet at the same time it has everything to do with the Legion,
quote:I don't care if they buy them for the staples as long as they buy 'em.
At some level it really IS the bottom line that keeps us going and I generally like the way Superboy/Superman is used in Legion stories so why not?
From: Smallville Sector : Greater Metropolis | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: [QBYet the original Legion was simply inspired by the world's greatest hero when he was a boy (i.e the same age as them, Q: why are teenagers superheroes? A: because look at all the good Superboy did).[/QB]
A little while ago, I realized that this connection - or at least the necessity for it - was fallacious. It occured when I encountered the suggestion that the Teen Titans could've inspired the Legion. I realized that kids don't look up to other kids as much as they do to adults. The Legion could've been inspired by SuperMAN. A way DC could've conceivably got around the problem in the no-Superboy era. Until the ridiculous no-mention-of-Superman directive, that is.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: [QBYet the original Legion was simply inspired by the world's greatest hero when he was a boy (i.e the same age as them, Q: why are teenagers superheroes? A: because look at all the good Superboy did).
A little while ago, I realized that this connection - or at least the necessity for it - was fallacious. It occured when I encountered the suggestion that the Teen Titans could've inspired the Legion. I realized that kids don't look up to other kids as much as they do to adults. The Legion could've been inspired by SuperMAN. A way DC could've conceivably got around the problem in the no-Superboy era. Until the ridiculous no-mention-of-Superman directive, that is. [/QB]
A good point. Of course, this begs the question of why the Legion isn't called the Legion of Titanic Heroes or some such.
I wonder if the idea that kids don't look up to other kids still holds true when there's a thousand years' remove involved. That is, when I was a kid, we read about Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary (who was supposedly a teenager when she gave birth to Jesus) as historical role models for how kids were supposed to behave, what they should believe, etc. I wonder if the same reverence would hold true for the Legion and Superboy and Supergirl since the latter weren't (at the time of the Legion's founding) contemporaries.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
It wasn't the titans, or Batman, or the Green Lantern Corps. It was Superboy, in that goofy little story that captured lightning in a bottle. Superboy doesn't have to appear in every single story, but the legion never feels right to me without him.
Supergirl didn't cut it. The issues around 255 or so where he left just didn't...well, they just seemed lacking to me.
The legion was inspired by the greatest of the ancient champions of good, Superboy who became Superman.
And like it was said above, i like the Superboy character much more than the Superman character. Superboy was still being formed, while Superman was always a little too...perfect.
I still remember a line "imagine knowing you have the power to shatter worlds and knowing it isn't enough" to paraphrase. It was against the fatal five on Mordan, i think it was. Superboy didn't save the day completely, it took the skills and teamwork of a Legion of kids.
I loved it.
But without Superboy, the legion loses something. Don't ask me why, they just...do.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
posted
I didn't feel this way for the longest time but began to change my mind about three or four years ago, and I think that change in opinion directly is the result of (A) rereading the entire Legion run (all boots) from start to finish a second time and (B) the almost ten years of discussing the Legion of Super-Heroes with other Legion fans here and elsewhere on line before. And what I feel is that the Legion absolutely must have that Superman/Superboy connection to maintain the spirit of the series.
That being said, I don't think Kal-El needs to be an active Legionnaire in every issue. I thought perhaps his most effective appearance after leaving the Legion was when he and Supergirl showed up in Great Darkness to battle Darkseid in the finale--it really felt like something special there. A very conservative use of Superboy with the Legion, not overdoing it, could work to the series' benefit in a variety of ways: a sense of building from where the Legion's beginnings, a larger connection to the Superma mythos (and thereby the DC universe), and a constant reminder of the Silver Age science-fiction origins of the Legion mythos which should always be present (albeit in various forms).
The entire idea of the utopian future of the Legion hinges somewhat on the inclusion of Superboy in its mythos. In a way, knowing full well that Superboy would one day grow to be Superman, the greatest hero of them all, was in parallel to the world one day growing into the utopian future of the Legion. Remove Superboy from the Legion and things grow tougher--remove Superboy from Legion history and the utopian future soon after changes to something much less so, even dystopian at times.
The Superman mythos had suffered just as painfully as the Legion via this disconnection. By removing the Legion aspect (and various other Silver Age Earth-1 themes), DC has tried to connect Superman closer to Wonder Woman and other DC properties, and there is no doubt that at times it does not feel right. It actually feels forced and lacking veracity at times.
To get back to what I first said, I used to feel the opposite of this for years. But I've thought about this topic a great deal, specifically for the last four years or so (since I reread the whole run) and I'm quite certain the Legion needs a firm connection to Superman/Superboy. I still, however, feel the connection to the rest of the DCU should end there.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Funny how our latest topic here in the Roundtable has strayed (or evolved?) from where it began, as the original topic the Roundtable grew from strayed...
But, really the Superboy thing started mostly as conjecture as to whether the Pocket Universe retcon actually may have been the first reboot of the Legion, albeit a somewhat subtler one than the Zero Hour one and the like. And it was also used to, at the very least, show how that retcon/reboot was the first (and possibly most damaging) domino to fall in a series of dominoes that have nearly destroyed the Legion and its fanbase.
But obviously that leads to the present focus, which is about whether Superboy should be a part of Legion history, and if so, to what extent should he be involved? Most posters appear to want the Supes tie but with Supes used sparingly.
Allow Spider-Lardy to spin his web on this debate into a different direction and see what takes shape:
Okay, what happened starting with the Pocket Universe retcon/reboot is done, as are all the other changes that happened. Bottom line is we can't turn back time and erase what happened in v3 #37-38 and reverse what happened and all the series of events (dominoes) that followed.
But Geoff Johns is trying to work his continuity magic and give us back: a) a Legion with ties to young Superman and b) the version who Supes has ties with resembles the LSH as we knew them circa the Levitz era.
My question is: Is Johns' attempt at a fix not waaaay too late? I mean, really, really too late? Granted, Johns has a decent track record with this sort of thing, but it feels like it's just way too much in an already-complicated Legion continuity mess!
In any case DC will do whatever DC wants to do, assuming that this latest "fix" is gonna be the one to ignite sells on the Legion. Of course all the other "fixes" were supposed to do this anyway. Uh...anybody got a scorecard here?
I know it's too late to rant and rave, but given my druthers, I'd prefer to give Shooter a chance to spin his stories and build up the fanbase. There are no guarantees, but good stories is what the Legion needs most of all. Why not let one of the masters of a good Legion story have a year or two to work his magic and see what happens before pulling the plug and aborting the whole thing AGAIN? Hell, why couldn't Shooter's take on the 3Boot Legion have been the one to have ties with young Kal-El? Would that have just made too much sense, DC?
Instead, we'll have L3W and probably with it the latest "real" version will be officially unveiled. And I'll just bet 3Boot (along with Shooter and Manapul) will be back in the trash bin of futility that the Legion's stories go into once fickle DC decides to give it another makeover.
In that line of thinking I'm having very little trouble believing the rumor about Shooter being out is true and that our devotion will be rewarded the way it always seems to be the last couple decades.
Cynicism, thy name is Lard Lad...today, at least.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:And the most pivotal Adult Legion story, the one written by Shooter, was self-contained without time travel or interaction with Superman like the others.
Um, we are talking about the Adult Legion story published in ADV. 354-355, right? This is "the one written by Shooter"? Superman plays a major role in that story and travels from his own time to visit the Legion.
Ooops! Sorry Fallible Lardy is definitely fallible where his memory of certain stories is involved. Apologize. I don't think it totally obliterates my argument about the standalone nature of the story, but it definitely weakened it.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ricardo, all I want to say is that based on Keith Giffen's own words he felt the title was falling apart by issue 5. Waid and the Bierbaum's mentioned that issue as well. Issue 5 was the Mon-El retcon. It was forced on them by DC and the Superman creative team right after the launch. And Giffen had to completely retool on the fly.
He felt he was being interefered with by DC as well as the fans, and he quit the book multiple times, including a period of months early in the run. By his own admission he quit it many times, for hours, days, weeks and months. I do not see that as this smooth fluid creative environment.
Reading it at the time, it actually felt to me like the way the creators describe it..a huge confusing why are they doing that cluster.....and it felt like someone who hated the Legion was dictating some of the changes. That's what Giffen took the brunt of...and I don't think he realizes it to this day. Does anyone really think the fan backlash was because Dream Girl's hair was different?
Yes they made lemonaid from lemons well, but I just don't see how anyone can say Giffen got to tell the story he wanted to tell, the way he wanted to tell it. All he got to do really was age them 5 years and put them through some minor-major character changes.
And he even said his Legion were meant to clones, not the real Legion.
That's just my opinion and I realize I am not going to change yours, but that book was a pretty big departure from the original Legion in tone, in continuity, in everything. Not for one second did it ever feel like the original Legion to me at even the most cursory level. I'd have probably enjoyed it a lot more if they hadn't called it Legion, but Giffen said he was banking on the Legion name to sell it.
I applaud him attempting to salvage the continuity, but truthfully, the matter was taken out of his hands, much to his chagrin I imagine. And even though he himself did not reboot the Legion and fought against it, the Superman Team did reboot it.
Oh yeah...Giffen also said he destroyed the Earth/Moon to vent his anger.
[ May 20, 2008, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Back toi the topic that was being discussed...IMO, retconning Superboy was a huge retcon.
The Legion was spun entirely out of the Superboy mythos.
I know we all enjoyed Eryk Davis Ester's favorite Legionaires polls...and I know some got a chuckle out of Superboy's poor showing on some of them...
But what made me chuckle is that the character that dominanted every single poll...
Was named Brainiac 5. As in the Superman Villian Brainiac.
In at least one incarnation was in love with Supergirl.
And he was created Jerry Siegel.
Tied together on so many different levels. Of course it was massive retcon. In terms of commercial appeal...Superboy is not some obscure Legionaire(and that's not comics reality either), he's the single most important Legionaire.
And you know what's really funny about the Pocket Uni story?
Superboy was in his own comic(short lived) and on TV within months of that retcon. Supergirl was soon back...a new version of Superboy was back a few years later.
So I ask you...what did that retcon accomplish? It limited bigname characters appearing in the Legion...that's what it accomplished. It removed the Legion from the Superman Family, and basically forced them to stand on their own with no strong and reliable tether to any known Universe...that's a tough sell with any team, in any era. Yeah they survived...but they didn't flourish as they once did.
All it did was hurt the Legion, that's all it accomplished.
And Superboy never went away...except from the Legion. He was on TV months after the reton...he's been on TV for 8 years now or so. He's also the top villian in the DC Universe now...
Not some minor character...especially to the Legion.
[ May 20, 2008, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Eryk I agree with of the points you made concerning comics audiences...
But I know one thing...as I was watching Iron Man a few weeks ago, the thought of how small the potential comics audience is was not crossing my mind at that moment...it was the exact opposite in fact.
People still read books(heck we read now more than ever thanks to the Web). They still read magazines, they still watch TV, movies etc...the only thing new since the Silver Age are video games and the web...but those haven't hurt book sales...I mean Harry Potter seems to do pretty well. So why would they hurt comics?
No newstand hurts, targeting older and older audiences hurts...but the audience is still there, if the comics are good.
I got a lot more to say...but for now I'll just say, the best selling Arhcie Comic(which is a digest) does over 100k sales per month in US Sales...which would place it in the top 10 of the direct market...and that 100k figure is roughly 25-40% of what Archie sold in the Silver Age....
The Legion sells roughly about 5% what it sold in the Silver Age, and struggles to stay in the top 60 books.
Archie is kicking it's butt...basically.
BTW, I'm not saying we should go after the Archie audience...but I'm saying I think some appeals trancend generations...a recognizable character will trancend generations.
I've been doing some research...near as I can tell, no version of Superboy and the Legion was ever anything less than a top 10 comic...at any point, in any era...not just a top 10 DC, but a top 10 in all of comics.
Belive it..or not.
I'll be posting some of these numbers at some point this week. Admittedly...I don't have all the numbers yet.
PS: Not to cram Superboy down you guys throats...but he is important. For the record Mon-El is my true favorite Legionaire, the retcon bothered me as much for what it did to Mon-El as for what it did to the Legion. I liked the introverted enigma...not by the by numbers hero Superboy imitation...why use an imitation? And who is going to replace Mon-El?
[ May 20, 2008, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In order for that chart to be valid, one would have to look at sales for the entire comic book industry and see how they compare. What's important is seeing the trend of comics sales vs. the trend in Legion sales.
We all know comics in 1960 were hugely more profitable, but that's because of a variety of reasons. If you go back 10 years earlier, one rough estimate says one in four children collected comics in 1954 in the United States. I know because I used that fact in a grad school history paper once.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: In order for that chart to be valid, one would have to look at sales for the entire comic book industry and see how they compare. What's important is seeing the trend of comics sales vs. the trend in Legion sales.
I've got the rankings for some of those eras and I will be posting them at some point this week.
The Adventure Legion was usually right @ a top 8 book in terms of total sales. Always in the top 10.
Easily the best selling team book of the Silver Age.
Sometimes doubling and even tripling the sales of titles like the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, the X-Men and even the JLA. Right up until the end of their Adventure Run.
Far and away the #1 team book. In fact I think they were the #1 selling team book every year of the Silver Age they were in publication.
And then they actually moved up in overall ranking during the Cockrum era even as overall sales declined(at least among DC sellers they moved up.
quote:
We all know comics in 1960 were hugely more profitable, but that's because of a variety of reasons. If you go back 10 years earlier, one rough estimate says one in four children collected comics in 1954 in the United States. I know because I used that fact in a grad school history paper once. [/qb]
Well...where the Legion ranks then, basically through the early part of the Levitz run, and where it ranks now is telling. That's what needs to be adressed. Sure the audience has shrunk...but the Legion's popularity has plummeted way more than any other Silver Age/Bronze age elite sellers.
Basically the Silver Age and Bronze Age Stalwarts are stil the dominant sellers to this day...with the exception of the Legion.
[ May 20, 2008, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Ricardo, all I want to say is that based on Keith Giffen's own words he felt the title was falling apart by issue 5. Waid and the Bierbaum's mentioned that issue as well. Issue 5 was the Mon-El retcon. It was forced on them by DC and the Superman creative team right after the launch. And Giffen had to completely retool on the fly.
Yes, but he didn't say his story was falling apart. He just says that he tried to avoid a reboot, which was what TPTB seemed to have pushed. And it was hard. He was successful on that.
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: He felt he was being interefered with by DC as well as the fans, and he quit the book multiple times, including a period of months early in the run. By his own admission he quit it many times, for hours, days, weeks and months. I do not see that as this smooth fluid creative environment.
Obviously not smooth, but some of the best rock albums (such as Big Star's Third) were also done under very tough circumstances. This is no excuse for bad execution, however.
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Reading it at the time, it actually felt to me like the way the creators describe it..a huge confusing why are they doing that cluster.....and it felt like someone who hated the Legion was dictating some of the changes. That's what Giffen took the brunt of...and I don't think he realizes it to this day. Does anyone really think the fan backlash was because Dream Girl's hair was different?
No, the backlash was due to the radical rethinking of the whole LSH concept from the point of view of the team being over 30 years old, almost 40, and how they would act and react under the worst time in the Universe. Most readers prefer classical "action" heroes in spandex.
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Yes they made lemonaid from lemons well, but I just don't see how anyone can say Giffen got to tell the story he wanted to tell, the way he wanted to tell it. All he got to do really was age them 5 years and put them through some minor-major character changes.
And he even said his Legion were meant to clones, not the real Legion.
As far as I read, the idea they would be clones was from the get-go. It wasn't one of the things they had to change.
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: That's just my opinion and I realize I am not going to change yours, but that book was a pretty big departure from the original Legion in tone, in continuity, in everything. Not for one second did it ever feel like the original Legion to me at even the most cursory level. I'd have probably enjoyed it a lot more if they hadn't called it Legion, but Giffen said he was banking on the Legion name to sell it.
I applaud him attempting to salvage the continuity, but truthfully, the matter was taken out of his hands, much to his chagrin I imagine. And even though he himself did not reboot the Legion and fought against it, the Superman Team did reboot it.
Oh yeah...Giffen also said he destroyed the Earth/Moon to vent his anger.
He said he destroyed the Earth EARLIER than he pretended to vent his anger. The destruction of Earth was also a plot he had in mind from the beginning. As well as the return of Superman.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
always has a chance of attracting a casual reader to try the title.
![[shrug]](graemlins/shrug.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Apologize. I don't think it totally obliterates my argument about the standalone nature of the story, but it definitely weakened it.
