quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: And back to "fixing" 5YL after End of an Era--I'm one of those who has argued in the past that we were left with no choice but to reboot in some way at that point, mainly for the reasons that HWW alluded to: things were taken too far. No Earth, 2 Legions, tragedy beyond compare...how do you follow that and still keep readers interested?
Actually, it was Kent who alluded to those things.
I actually liked (if that's the appropriate word) the destruction of earth -- it was a bold move that no one would have seen coming and it was delivered with poignancy and grandeur. I also do not think it signalled the death blow to the Legion itself: They could always have found another world, named it Earth II ( ), and continued on as before. "Legion On the Run" was far more damaging than the destruction of earth, I thought.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think the title could stand modification to show the drift we've taken.
How about: Lardy's Lounge: Now discussing 5YL That way, if the topic drifts again, it can be updated, while keeping the Lardy's Lounge "brand name," letting people know it is a continuation throughout future name changes.
I too did enjoy enough of the Reboot. I can enjoy basicalyl anu version of the Legion to at least some degree, even Waid Threeboot and even Conway.
I can also respect those who consider 5YL to be beyond their scope of what Legion is to them. Steph does raise good points; I spent so much effort replying that I forgot to recognize that. Thanks, HWW.
Lardy, I sometimes daydream about what I would have done with various characters/books had I been in control at various points. LSH 259 is usually the one I think on the most.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
HWW- LOTR was definitely more damaging, and the destruction of Earth was extremely well told (much better than I expected, knowing it was coming from filling in back issues peicemeal).
But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extreemly well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity.
For example, ST:Voyager. An interesting premise and a decent cast, but without a well-thought out, well-executed plan, it stumbled along rather lacklusterly. Without the stability of known UFP space, the creators kept introducing other beings/concepts that somehow also drifted into a distant quadrant; also, numerous 'new' races they encountered were scantly different from what they knew at home.
To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
(sorry for the confusion when I "quoted" you, HWW--I need to fact-check better! )
Just to clarify, guys, I never said that I disapproved of the story of Earth's destruction--indeed I remember welling up a little, it was so well-done. But in hindsight, doing so did alter the LSH concept drastically as it had always been Earth-centric and could make the LSH less relatable to readers.
That said, New Earth had potential; I'm just not so sure that potential was limitless. I'm sure the plan was to eventually find a new planet for all those domes. And that could've been interesting indeed.
But pursuing that storyline could've put the Legion more squarely in the sci-fi category and less in the superhero category. The Legion had always straddled both concepts but was still more a superhero book all in all.
Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.
And, yes, had the quality not dipped down during LOTR, we may not have ever heard of a reboot. But we'll never know for sure, will we?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I think the title could stand modification to show the drift we've taken.
How about: Lardy's Lounge: Now discussing 5YL That way, if the topic drifts again, it can be updated, while keeping the Lardy's Lounge "brand name," letting people know it is a continuation throughout future name changes.
Kent, I went with your suggestion but decided on "Lardy's Roundtable" because I thought that was more reflective of the tone here. Hopefully, it'll work!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Good points about growing up guys, but still too pessimistic for me. I like my comics being about hope and victory, not about 'real' issues and failures. To me the Legion represents optimism and the 5YL seems less about optimisim and more about cynicism.
However, I've only found the Legion recently, so my Legion experience has been piecemeal and 'after the fact' so to speak. I remember finding an old Adventure digest, that reprinted some Legion stories, and I remember reading the "Death of Lightning Lad" story. That story really made an impact on me with the character of Saturn Girl. She was just so incredible, here she was willing to sacrifice her life so that no one else would die and was doing it all on her own. She KNEW she was going to die, she didn't know LL would come up and take her place, so she made a plan, stuck to her guns and went to die. Wow.
Another story that impacted me, was Projectra killing Nemesis Kid, hardcore. She just made the decision and did it, and no whining or regret, she was going to stick to her guns regardless of the consequences (side note, I always wanted to explore Saturn Girl's and Sensor Girl's relationship more as I think they would have been very interesting to watch since they are both such strong women and leaders).
So I have a hard time seeing these two women step aside, I mean, Imra even rejoined the Legion even after having her kids (after another favorite Imra moment of mine when she takes down Universo). To me that is the difference between joining as a teenager to have 'fun' and doing it as an adult. Put this way, the difference between someone joining the Navy out of high school to see the world and someone going to Annapolis and staying in until they're an Admiral or something.
Yes, some Legionnaires would drift away and move on, but I think some of the older Legionnaires would stay no matter what, also, I think their successors would be up to it. But that's me wanting to believe in the optimism that is a Legion comic. To me the Legion represents the idea that humanity progresses and improves, to have their successors and future generations fail mean that their 'message' is ultimatly false.
Like I said, I would love to see an Adult Legion where they are still the galaxies greatest protectors and where there are 50 or a 100 Legion mmember, where the threats are faced by the Legion and the Heroes of Llalor and the Subs and Dev-Em. Where the Legion is an inspiration and the older members take orders from younger members who have proven themselves. and Khund Legionnaires do sound cool. And have some of the Legionnaires move on, but not because they are tired, but because the galaxy is in good hands.
I realize this is kind of rambling, I guess I just have hard time connecting the Legion I've read with what I've read of the 5YG Legion. Part of that is because when I first got into the Legion I just grabbed back issues, and I didn't know which order they went (with Superboy and the LOSH, Tales, LOSH, LOSH on nicer paper, LOSH on similar paper but different art style, Legionnaires) so for awhile I was reading things in quite a jumbe till I could figure it out (like I would read an issue of the early Baxter Legion and then the 5YG Legion because of the numbering order and MAN was I confused).
But I do remember absolutly loving the bright, optimistic Legion and having a real aversion and disgust to the darker Legion, even the 'funny' stories where Thom was a coach and Dream Girl was fat I thought were a mockary of what the Legion ment. And maybe this is just because I am doing it all after the fact. Maybe if I had read it at the time I could see the growth and accept it better, but for me it's just not the Legion, it just doesn't have the core componants that made me a Legion fan.
I first regularly began buying the Legion with the threeboot, since then I've gone back and through back issues got some of Superboy and the Legion, all of Levitz's run except for some issues towards the end and the Pocket Unvierse stoyline (mostly because that is so expensive), I finally got Earthwar the other day, I have some Cockrum and Grell stuff, I'm waiting with baited breath for the Showcases (I had to go to a business party yesterday otherwise I would already have Showcase vo 2), I picked up those little digest wherever I could find them....so basically, the Legion bug bit me and it bit me hard, but whatever it is that I LOVE about the Legion, I just don't see it in the 5YL Legion, yet I can still find it in the Conway Legion which is why I think Conway isn't the worse.
Whew. Thanks for reading (or skimming, or just ignoring).
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: ...so basically, the Legion bug bit me and it bit me hard, but whatever it is that I LOVE about the Legion, I just don't see it in the 5YL Legion, yet I can still find it in the Conway Legion which is why I think Conway isn't the worse.
Steph, I started reading the Legion in Adventure in the early 60's I believe I've read every Legion story ever written with the exception of a large portion of V4. Thank you for putting into words my feelings about the Five Year Crap.
In my opinion TMK Shat upon the Legion Mythos and can never, ever, be sufficiently damned for what they did to the greatest franchise in comics.
But that's just my opinion.
I understand (now) that they were working with some horrendous editorial demands and that they were cursed by the need to validate the hatchet job John Byrne was doing on Superman.
But I still despise that version of the Legion and only reluctantly am I buying the back issues to complete my collection.
So my opinion is ANYTHING that erases the 5YC from a revised continuity is a good thing, so TPTB implementing a plan like Kent's would be fantastic.
But now, how do we get Gates, XS, Gear, Kid Quantum II, Triad, and Shikari into that LSH?
-------------------- Just an Old, Broke-Down, Drunk, Bum!!
With a Power Ring...
From: Westerly Rhode Island | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extreemly well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity. [. . . ]
To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.
Kent, I agree with everything you wrote (including the VOYAGER analogy), but I'm not sure what it proves. If you're suggesting that the destruction of earth wasn't well thought out, you could be right; we'll never know, as the Bierbaums were dismissed only a year or so later. It would take time for a story of that magnitude to reach resolution. (Giffen himself took an inordinately long time just to reform the Legion.)
If, as you say, DC was pushing the book back toward mainstream super-hero fare, then this, to my mind, is another example of editorial meddling independent of whether or not the idea itself was well considered.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.
Well, that's comparing apples to . . . a computer simulation of apples.
DnA's run had other problems besides its science fiction bent. In my opnion, TMK did a much better job of exploring the science fiction possibilities of the Legion's world through stories such as ProFem and the destruction of earth than DnA were capable of. TMK never lost sight of the Legionnaires as individuals and how those individuals were affected by their world.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: Good points about growing up guys, but still too pessimistic for me. I like my comics being about hope and victory, not about 'real' issues and failures. To me the Legion represents optimism and the 5YL seems less about optimisim and more about cynicism.
I like optimistic Legion stories, too, steph, but I don't see 5YL as being necessarily incompatible with that.
True optimism comes from facing "the dark side" of life and still deciding that life is worth living. True optimism means refusing to give in to cynicism even though events are beyond our control. (As an aside, I'm teaching my writing class about Martin Luther King, Jr., who probably embodied optimism better than any other American leader. To face the ugly specter of racism, not to mention personal threats, bombings, and a stabbing, and to continue to work for equality through nonviolent means is remarkable.)
Had Giffen or the Bierbaums been allowed to develop their original story plan, they may have brought us around to a place where things would be optimistic again. Giffen alludes to that, at least, in his LEGION COMPANION interview. He suggests that the Legion would have emerged as even greater heroes at the end.
But I do see your point. Much of 5YL is unrelentingly dark. This is one of the problems I had with it, particularly during the early run. Giffen went out of his way to deconstruct every aspect of the Legion. He succeeded too well.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I thank you, Stephbarton, because your post made by heart soar my spirit dance with joy. Especially the following:
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: To me the Legion represents the idea that humanity progresses and improves, to have their successors and future generations fail mean that their 'message' is ultimatly false.
Exactly! While I don't mind dark superhero stories when they're good stories well told, I only enjoy those stories if they take place in the past or the present, not the future. I'm a huge fan of the tales of the Legion's ancestors, L.E.G.I.O.N., especially issues 14 to 31. I think it further enriches the optimism of the pre-5YL Legion by contrasting the bleak present with the promise of a brighter future (and, on a purely subjective note, I think Alan Grant was able to write dark stories with far more wit, flair, and cohesion, and a much less heavy hand, than TMK.)
And before anyone says anything, yes, I know that L.E.G.I.O.N. was launched while the Levitz era was wrapping up and looking darker by the minute, and that it mostly ran concurrently with the 5YL Legion. That doesn't change anything for me. As I've said in another thread, I think 5YL was the superhero story equivalent of a cokehead's ramble, and I do not consider it canon no matter what the 5YL fans may argue.
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: I do remember absolutly loving the bright, optimistic Legion and having a real aversion and disgust to the darker Legion, even the 'funny' stories where Thom was a coach and Dream Girl was fat I thought were a mockary of what the Legion ment.
Again, exactly! TMK can flash their fan credentials all they want, but their smug demolishing of many Legion institutions is the proof in the pudding. They are an early example of the kind of writing that has become an epidemic in recent years, where successive writers tear down what their predecessors built*. I admit I'm not completely against it, as anyone who's read my Green Lantern posts in the Dr. Gym'll forum can confirm, but I've felt its sting as well, with my Marvel counterpart to the Legion, the Avengers**, and Kurt Busiek's hatchet job on my beloved Bob Harras era.
*The earliest example in my opinion is John Byrne regressing the personalities and looks of the Fantastic Four, way back in 1981.
**Counterpart not literally, but in the sense that Legion is my favorite DC superhero team book and Avengers is my favorite Marvel superhero team book.
posted
Steph, I just want to say that I appreciate your point of view on the Legion entirely. And I think you understand that my take on and justification of 5YL is purely my own rationale for why it worked for me and for others. In fact I'm sure that if I, like Abin, cut my teeth on the Legion during the classic Adventure era, there's a much, much greater chance that I would have dropped the book in disgust like Abin did.
My first issue of LSH I ever bought was actually #286, Giffen's first issue. I was ten years old and my interest had been piqued by the Legion's appearances in DC Comics Presents and later enhanced (while reading the Levitz run) by those wonderful Adventure digests that were reprinting chronologically the Legion's Silver Age stories. I was curious to notice the differences in tone, story, art and costumes between what I was reading in the digests and what was in the regular series. In a way it helped me understand continuity in comics better than anything I'd ever read to that point. And it was exciting because I realized these characters had really changed over time, unlike, say, Superman and Batman.
So I guess the way I was educated on change very early on with the Legion really prepared me to accept and embrace 5YL (and later, the reboots in a way), even though it was admittedly pretty drastic and sudden.
Maybe my peculiar Legion-reading roadmap is part of why I personally am more accepting of 5YL. In a way it's why I can also genuinely identify with Steph's (and Abin's and Stealth's) point of view at the same time.
Side story: Ironically, as much as I got into the Legion during my tweens, I didn't stick with them for long. I dropped the Legion around #305 when a friend got me into--the X-Men! What can I say? Teens are fickle, and even though I wasn't dissatisfied with the title, I dropped it (and all DC titles!) and sold all my LSH comics (and all my DCs!), so I could--ta-DA--buy more X-Men! I was converted into a Marvel Zombie overnight...but I still never forgot about those Legion comics. So several years later, when I followed Byrne from Marvel to Superman, I eventually found myself back to the Legion (with the Death of Superboy crossover) and have been back ever since (and bought back all the Levitz issues I sold, plus, eventually, all those I missed in the interim)!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
I am a legion follower since the very early days in Adventure and the 5YL wasn't complete anathema to me. What put me off was
1 the artwork and that had started at the end of the Levitz run. for me the rot had set in artwise before the Magic Wars.
2 the other aspect was the retconning Sean, Garth/Proty, Triad not Triplicate Girl, Kid quantum. None of these were necesarry for the overall story line and lost a lot of older fans.
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.
i think that DnA's run ran out of steam when... it left sci-fi behind. steve whacker wanted the book to be more "super-heroish", and in the end it just came back to be another brick in a wall of many other similar super-hero books. recently i loved johns' "superman & the legion" arc on action comics, it had many sci-fi moments and they all worked.
posted
Thanks for sharing Lardy (may I call you Lardy), I too wonder what similiarites there are between those who really like the 5YL and then the similarities for those who basically shear it from Legion lore. I can certainly understand and respect your position as you got both Levitz/Giffen and Adventures at roughly the same time.
I guess it all comes to rationalization. Just like with the current issue, I can justify Ayla's actions with Garth very easily, some can not and see it as poor writing. Some can see the Legion turning into the 5YG Legion, others cannot make the connection/rationalization (like me) and ending up hating what the 5YL stories did to the Legion.
I think that is a risk they decided to take, and ulitmatly it backfired. According to a sales chart I saw on this site, the 5YL Legion sold really well at the begining, but eventually it was rebooted. You said it yourself, it took awhile for Giffen to reform the Legion, probably too long in hindsight.
Now you have the Legion struggling to maintain its own title, and it seems that no matter what they do they have a hard time keeping the fans. I think denying the Legion its history hurt it (Titans still has its history to draw upon, even if the current Teen Titans is vastly different from W/P era) but Legion doesn't have that anymore.
I think Kent's idea would have been better in the long run than the reboot (which since it has been rebooted itself is almost a no brainer) but I also think the older Legion (but not 'dark' 5YL Legion) is really what people want. Going back to the end of Baxter and having the new characters try to prevent the darkness of the 5YG would have added a sense of drama.
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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), and continued on as before. "Legion On the Run" was far more damaging than the destruction of earth, I thought.
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