Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: I may be wrong, but I have the impression that by the time the Empress died, Giffen was doing most of the plotting. I think that Levitz's original intention to leave after Conspiracy would support this theory.
I'd say its unlikely that Giffen was the driving force. The plots are classic Levitz themes.
He'd already used the idea of a villain obsessed with immortality with Lars Hanscom, before killing him off in in that awful Starfinger II storyline.
The Magic Wars plays with typical Levitz themes of science versus magic, and features a trademark Levitz-style omnipotent-villain-who-is-the-embodiment-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-character.
There are probably elements that are primarily Giffen's doing (such as Magnetic Kid's death), but it really seems like Levitz is still the driving force.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Keith's a real pioneer and innovator in his own way in the comics industry, though he'll never get the recognition that Miller, Moore, Gaiman, etc. (and even Bendis and his ilk) get.
Agreed. His 5YL work I think is what really did it. He was doing no costumes, no codenames, with character work before Morrison and Bendis did. If 5YL came out today everyone would think Morrison did it...and probably love it.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by superboymddjr: [QB] well that's too bad...because Karate Kid has died for the third time no matter what book Keith is associated with. The latest one recently was in Countdown.
He died AGAIN?? So was he the Lightning Saga Version or the Action version or the 3-boot version?
That would definitely NOT be the Threeboot version, and it definitely would be the Lightning version; the Action Legion lacks a KK because their KK was was busy being featured in Countdown.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Keith's a real pioneer and innovator in his own way in the comics industry, though he'll never get the recognition that Miller, Moore, Gaiman, etc. (and even Bendis and his ilk) get.
Agreed. His 5YL work I think is what really did it. He was doing no costumes, no codenames, with character work before Morrison and Bendis did. If 5YL came out today everyone would think Morrison did it...and probably love it.
Giffen is a creative genius... but he needs someone riding the reins. Giffen by his lonesome is just too chaotic; he turns and destroys even his own creations on a whim.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Right you are. Lone Cowboy Giffen is best with one shots (preferably out of any continuity). With a good - and I mean GOOD - Editor - that man is a genius indeed...
Sometimes it seems he just gets bored with the mundane trappings of comic lore and fandom
From: Invisible College | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
That's why Levitz and Giffen made a good team. Paul could impose order on the chaos. The Bierbaums at least in part functioned that way as well, but they weren't nearly as strong as far as restraining him as Levitz was. At the same Levitz really lost something without that chaotic undercurrent, and it often felt like he was just moving the pieces around without Giffen.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: I may be wrong, but I have the impression that by the time the Empress died, Giffen was doing most of the plotting. I think that Levitz's original intention to leave after Conspiracy would support this theory.
I'd say its unlikely that Giffen was the driving force. The plots are classic Levitz themes.
He'd already used the idea of a villain obsessed with immortality with Lars Hanscom, before killing him off in in that awful Starfinger II storyline.
The Magic Wars plays with typical Levitz themes of science versus magic, and features a trademark Levitz-style omnipotent-villain-who-is-the-embodiment-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-character.
There are probably elements that are primarily Giffen's doing (such as Magnetic Kid's death), but it really seems like Levitz is still the driving force.
Much as I love Levitz and hate Giffen, I could just as easily see the death of the Emerald Empress as an error in judgement from Levitz. It wouldn't be his only one -- the worst offender IMO was Dream Girl's mind being enslaved by Atmos; that one was definitely Levitz because it was already in motion before Giffen returned.
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: His 5YL work I think is what really did it. He was doing no costumes, no codenames, with character work before Morrison and Bendis did. If 5YL came out today everyone would think Morrison did it...and probably love it.
Not EVERYONE. I still would have hated it.
Did I mention I also hate Morrison and Bendis?
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Levitz really lost something without that chaotic undercurrent.
quote:"2) Karate Kid was, and still is, a character I despise. As a matter of fact, way back when, the only reason I stayed on the Legion when it went Baxter was because Paul promised I could kill him. I am so hoping history will repeat itself."
With all due respect, I'm "SO" hoping not!
if he had a hand in countdown he did !
-------------------- Bring back the super-cousins
From: nyc | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't care for the Emerald Empress dying either. But I can see why Levitz did it. It was an important part of a Legionnaire he revitalized...Sensor Girl/Projectra. Also this was the end for Levitz and the Legion as we knew it. He probably knew about the 5YL and decided to give us something dramatic to some Legion lore.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I loved Giffen's early artwork. Hated his later stuff. Loved his storytelling though.
I thought the Empress's death was really well-told. There were several issues of buildup where she's searching for the secret to immortality and then the surprise ending where it's revealed that she's looking to end her immortality rather than achieve it.
On the other hand, I thought Karate Kid's death was really a stupid waste. Nemesis Kid did NOT kill him as many people mistakenly remember. After being severely beaten by NK, K Kid flew himself into one of the many power spheres that were holding Orando hostage and transporting it to another dimension and blew himself up, which accomplished exactly nothing except giving Projectra a charred corpse to dispose of. Some may argue that he knew he was dying anyway, but who knows what 30th century science or Orandoan magic could've done to save him?
Magnetic Kid's death was another stupid waste. He gives his life so the Legion can get to a planet where the Dark Mage is hiding out, only to find that he's not there after all. Then, later, the Dark Mage is defeated with no Legion involvement anyway. Legionnaires are supposed to die heroically saving lives, not running useless errands.
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sensor Girl's powers were out of the Chemical King/Tyroc/Kid Quantum handbook. They were too vague and undefined and Projectra's powers didn't need beefing up anyway. They just needed to be used effectively by the writer du jour.
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can anybody bump up the Giffen article or email it to me? I don't see a way to look up old issues on the Wizard site.
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
The most stupid thing about KK's death was that he was supposedly destroying the powerspheres to stop the LSV from transporting Orando into another dimension, but they go ahead and teleport it there anyway.
Honestly, he's never really been one of my favorite Legionnaires, either, and I actually enjoyed that whole scene when I read it as a kid, but it's pretty lame in retrospect.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wasn't very satisfied with it, either, for the reason EDE points out, but also that a supposedly-dying Val was still functional enough to make a suicide run of questionable wisdom at a power sphere anyway.
The spheres still worked, and even if they didn't, they would be necessary to get Orando back to the regular universe, too.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc by having her turn out to be dominated by that bloody Eye.
The more I think about it, that seems like a sure sign that Levitz had grown sick of the Legion and decided to tear down a magnificent character he had built up from a decidedly average villainess.
I remember reading somewhere that it was Giffen who convinced Levitz to spend one more year on the book. If this is true, then maybe Giffen is to blame after all for the awfulness of that year.
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Hmmm?]](graemlins/hmmm.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
