posted
What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc by having her turn out to be dominated by that bloody Eye.
The more I think about it, that seems like a sure sign that Levitz had grown sick of the Legion and decided to tear down a magnificent character he had built up from a decidedly average villainess.
I remember reading somewhere that it was Giffen who convinced Levitz to spend one more year on the book. If this is true, then maybe Giffen is to blame after all for the awfulness of that year.
posted
Bad ass villians are fun. There are lots of bad ass villians in comic books. There are fewer really interesting villians. Taken as a whole, the Levitz run represents growth to me. Heroes and villians grew, changed, and evolved. Everyone was a bit more complicated, a bit more tested and tried by the end of the his run. Emerald Empress was a bad ass, power hungry, greedy, selfish woman. She chose the eye as much as it chose it her. The eye seduced her more than it dominated her. She was, alas, only human. In the end, she found her incredibly strong will being overcome by a powerful and ancient mystical force. She was strong enough and smart enough to seek out Projectra, the one person she knew who could help her. She humbled herself before Projectra in order to gain her freedom. Did she think she would be able to manipulate things so that she would be able to maintain her life and regain her freedom? Did she know the price of freedom would be her life? Was she uncertain? Did she take a chance and pay the ultimate cost? In her final moments she realized the price she had paid for her greed, and expressed graditude and respect to a woman who had been her enemy for years. I find it hard to see that as anything but powerful storytelling.
I consider the late issues of the Baxter series to be Giffen's third act. I like artists who go through phases and aren't afraid to change. Most don't have the balls to challange themselves or readers. Giffen did, and he gets nothing but repsect, from me, for doing so. His third act had a softness that his second and fourth acts lacked. He toned down some of the harsh experimental qualities that made Omen and Prophet hard to read. It was more effective stroytelling, and you can start to see the some of the elements that would be employed in the 5YL stories, which I count as some of my all time favorites.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Stealth: You like growth, I don't like growth, and never the twain shall meet.
You're saying you don't like character growth in comics, Stealth? I'll acknowledge that maybe in the cases of the major icons (Superman, Batman, etc.), too much character growth can be a detriment if it makes them unrecognizable, but I'd say that any other non-iconic character is fair game for it. In fact, I'd say that's the best reason to follow "smaller" characters rather than the icons...because they can grow, change...and even die.
Jerry has an excellent point of view on the last Empress story. I was pretty fond of the story myself for the same reasons. I'm actually kind of surprised by what you said here since I know you enjoy X-Factor (which has loads of character growth), as well as the LSH (for which change has been the only constant for at least the last couple decades).
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Stealth: What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc...that Levitz had...built up from a decidedly average villainess.
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: You like growth, I don't like growth, and never the twain shall meet.
No comment.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I've always felt the death of the Empress was the best, or at the very least ONE of the best villain deaths I'd ever read in comics.
I agree, and I also think she was made *much* more interesting in that storyline than she had been portrayed earlier on. Actually, come to think of it, this storyline does kind of foreshadow the more complex and nuanced motivations for villains that were typical of the 5YL Legion (though Levitz had kind of already done that with Universo).
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I know the death of Emerald Empress was a wonderful story. But she must back to life like Dracula in the Hammer films, with the power of the eye of Ekron. The sustitute Cera Kesh don't work for me.... And The Empress of the Archie Legion ...Sucks! Maybe Sarya can rise again from the ashes, she looks beautiful in the Brave And Bold crossover.
-------------------- From Spain with glamour.
From: Valencia- Spain | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Stealth: What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc...that Levitz had...built up from a decidedly average villainess.
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: You like growth, I don't like growth, and never the twain shall meet.
No comment.
After almost three years of me posting on Legion World, you STILL haven't figured out that I'm a walking contradiction?
Moving on...
I do like growth, BUT ONLY within certain boundaries. And that's entirely to do with the personal issues I've been struggling with all my life.
I like female villains a lot. I often like them better than heroes of either gender. Female villains allow me to live out my darkest fantasies vicariously.
So I don't like it when female villains are humiliated, disfigured, killed, etc.
I hated it when the Emerald Empress had to face the consequences of her actions and was reduced to grovelling.
I hated it when Jim Starlin and Ron Marz had Nebula burned alive, zombified, and later turned into a bald-headed cyborg.
Getting away for a moment from comics, I hated that Alias ended with Irina Derevko getting killed instead of her surviving to resurface in the inevitable Alias reunion movie coming somewhere around the year 2016.
And getting away from villains, let's discuss heroines.
I hated Saturn Girl changing from pink-bikinied-hussy-with-Farrah-hair to conservative-wife-and-mother. It's a very realistic change, and that's why I hate it; I'd rather slit my wrists than let that happen to me.
I hated the Sean/Shvaughn fiasco. I've already argued at length in another thread about how I think TMK (but mostly K, more of that later) handled a sensitive subject insensitively, so here's the other reason I hate it: because one of the symptoms of my the mental illness I suffer from is that I get @%#@$%ing FREAKED OUT whenever someone (in fiction AND in real life) turns out to be the opposite of what they seem. Strong, self-confident, ass-kicking girl turns out to be weak, foolish, needy, sexually confused boy -- DO THE MATH!
Which brings us full circle back to Keith Giffen. I find his characters weirdly sexless, both as an artist and a writer. While the Sean/Schvaughn idea came from the Bierbaums, the barbaric and ignorant insensitivity of its execution stinks of Giffen. Obviously he's got issues of his own and they've taken a heavy toll on him (he's only in his 50s but he looks like he's over 100) but I don't sympathize -- which is also part of my mental illness, a tendency to dehumanize people I don't like. And I don't like Keith Giffen. Don't like his art, don't like his writing, don't like his nihilism, don't like his cynicism, don't like his sarcasm, don't like the influence he's had on superhero comics.
So you all keep on loving Giffen and his work, and I'll keep on hating him and his work.
posted
Unfortunately, it looks like Giffen will have another shot at Val in his Wildstorm crossover. And KK is not the only Legionnaire he's expressed hatred or contempt for in the past.
DC should give Shooter (KK's creator) a shot a one of Giffen's characters -- but I doubt he'd be willing to stoop so low.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I've always felt the death of the Empress was the best, or at the very least ONE of the best villain deaths I'd ever read in comics.
The only part that didn't work for me was the art. After the clean lines of Lightle, whoever did that next arc made all of the female characters, including Sarya, look like puffy-faced slightly-overweight square-headed men in drag.
Had that storyline been penciled differently, I would rank it right up there with the very best.
I thought it was a fitting point for Sarya to reach, where she was *tired* of being the villain of the day and chose to leave that life behind.
Registered: Aug 2006
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