quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: The reason that most Legion fans who don't like the 3boot don't like it is because the characterisation and history is not true to the past.
Karate Kid was always in love with Jeckie and now he's shafting Light Lass. No way! Star Boy black? No way he's the bearded guy who loves Dream Girl.
The same was true of the reboot. Changing characters and origins just pi**es people off and even the best writers can't recover from that level of disillusion.
as much as i don't want to agree with you there i have to
the changes piss me off cause a lot of them just don't have any build up
people might be happier with changes if we got more background with them other then just taking things on faith that brin and jacike are soul mates
think about it years ago we got see the relationships slowly build and we got invested in them,in the threeboot we got none of that the closest we got to that is with element lad and trip and that one sucked we saw one date then bamn nothing but them holding hands in the background
(side note one of my biggest pet peeves in the threeboot is when brainiac 5 and super girl finally got to meet one another. that was the one thing i was look fowarded to when she did join the team, and i was so mad that not only did he not crush on her he was quite the asshole.the again this new supergirl is almost retarded )
-------------------- ／l、 ﾞ（ﾟ､ ｡ ７ l、ﾞ ~ヽ じしf_, )ノ
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From: ny | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
It's the reason I didn't like Smallville, as much as I wanted to. I don't want to see Pete Ross as African-American and Lana Lang as Asian-American. I'm not descriminating against anyone here, they just aren't who I remember in all my years of reading Superman comics. If the creators of Smallville wanted to introduce new characters with ethnic diversity to the Smallville tapestry, go right ahead! Just don't mess with my continuity!!
-------------------- Craig C.
- Time travel stories are told in chronillogical order.
From: Santa Ana, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: The Legion needs to be the classic Legion to regain the true fans rather than the kids who will read for two years and then move on. The sales of Action have shown that. Whether it is Geoff Johns or Jim Shooter, I honestly don't care as long as it is well written and 'true' to the past. Mr Manapul should be able to work with either, surely.
I'd wager that any money, may it be charged with long years of "fannish devotion", or may it come from a brand-new pocket, is equally welcome to DC. Therefore, ideally, the Legion needs to gain the "kids", as you're putting it, on top of the "true fans" (I'd love to rephrase that expression as "people who have been reading since long before the first reboot"). I'm also pretty sure that new readers won't jump ship after a short amount of time for the reason that they're unable to work up any true devotion for a "bastardized" (i.e. rebooted) product which lacks the inherently "rightful" essence of the original Legion - a Legion they probably wouldn't "get" either, being fickle "kids" and not true, grizzeled devotees to the Legion mythos . As you say, the quality of the writing factors in prominently, as well. I'd really love it if people would primarily judge according to this factor, no matter which version of the Legion they're dealing with.
I disagree with the original Legion automatically being the cure-all for what ails the LoSH. It's only natural that the longtime readership which favours this version of the Legion decreases over the course of time, just like that of the other boots - due to change of interests, growing out of comics, dying in freak lawnmower accidents, or whatever else the reasons might be. But to new potential readers it means zilch that the original Legion is the original Legion, dripping history from its every pore. Since you can't work them from a nostalgia angle you have to hook them on the strength of the writing - and I'm really of the opinion that Legion sales do need these readers, as well.
Registered: Oct 2006
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I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.
All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig: It's the reason I didn't like Smallville, as much as I wanted to. I don't want to see Pete Ross as African-American and Lana Lang as Asian-American. I'm not descriminating against anyone here, they just aren't who I remember in all my years of reading Superman comics. If the creators of Smallville wanted to introduce new characters with ethnic diversity to the Smallville tapestry, go right ahead! Just don't mess with my continuity!!
oh there was so much wrong with smalville it hurts to think about it
kinda pissed they never had the legion in it
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From: ny | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
You don't have to re-invent a series to get new readers. X-Men have been published steadily since 1975. Probably half of its readership wasn't even alive then.
A good story an art team will create enough buzz to bring in new readers. That's how Legion rebounded in the 70s with Cockrum and in the 80s with Levitz/Giffen.
Shooter is doing an okay job. His characterization is great, but there isn't much story to sink your teeth into.
It's not that I think Geoff Johns is always brillaint, but more often than not -- he delivers. I'd like to see him continue writing the Legion from Action (though some of the costume Gary Frank designed need rebooted).
Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: However, it is a Superman history, not a Legion-centric one. Which is fine for Action Comics. But I really don't want to see a Superman & The Legion of Super Heroes book because I am sure it will be another spotlight for Superman and not for LSH. The fact that Action Comics sells above LSh has less to do with LSH and way more for being a Johns/Frank book or Superman (which has been outselling LSH for years). This is not a reasonable motive for booting Shooter.
The story in Action Comics is a Legion for Superman fans, not a Legion for Legion fans. For this reason, and those you say, its sales can't be compared to the threeboot Legion, either under Waid/Kitson or under Shooter/Manuapul.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: "new readers"
I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.
All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.
I agree with Jorge. DC could care less at this point about new readers, in the sense of those that have never picked up a comic before or at least a DC comic before. Their strategy for the past few years has been to try to get the current "hardcore DC fanbase" to feel they need to pick up as many titles in their line as possible. The Legion hasn't benefited from the current crossover/event craze, being isolated in the 31st century. But by connecting them to Superman and sticking Superboy-Prime in the series, they can make the case that the Legion is an important chapter in their ongoing 150-part crossover or whatever. As a marketing strategy it makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: "new readers"
I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.
All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.
I agree with Jorge. DC could care less at this point about new readers, in the sense of those that have never picked up a comic before or at least a DC comic before. Their strategy for the past few years has been to try to get the current "hardcore DC fanbase" to feel they need to pick up as many titles in their line as possible. The Legion hasn't benefited from the current crossover/event craze, being isolated in the 31st century. But by connecting them to Superman and sticking Superboy-Prime in the series, they can make the case that the Legion is an important chapter in their ongoing 150-part crossover or whatever. As a marketing strategy it makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.
I think you are partially mistaken. LSH was actively involved in the latest crossover (even by becoming Supergirl and LSH). DCU#0 is also a proof DC wants to grab new readers. As for how successful they will be, that's something else. New comic book readers? That's also a problem that runs way above mere "reboots". So, in that case, you are correct: DC is trying to milk current readers into trying LSH. And even though Shooter and Manapul do a better LSH than Johns has shown me so far, it is stupid not to consider that for CURRENT LSH newbies, Johns is way more glamourous and attractive than Shooter.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I wouldn't say that LSH was "actively involved" in the latest crossover. It's true that they've been trying the strategy of marketing the LSH as important to the DCU for awhile, going back to Mark Waid's original claim that the current series was anticipating Infinite Crisis a year ahead of time. And then Supergirl showing up for awhile, and Booster Gold making a brief appearance. Still... while the event comics have had an effect on the LSH, it would be a stretch to say that they've had much of an impact on events in the mainstream DCU, at least up until the introduction of the Johns Legion.
And, as I understand it, DCU #0 was more of an afterthought... an attempt to link Countdown to Final Crisis to Final Crisis itself, than a serious attempt to market to new readers. And if it was meant as an attempt, it apparently was such a piss poor attempt that it's hard to take seriously as such. I could quote the numerous reveiws of how inaccessible it was, but I think we've got a whole thread full of them somewhere.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Superboy: I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Bates to return to the Legion...even though it was DC's top seller when he wrote it.
#1. He didn't particularly like writing it because it had such a large cast.
#2. The Bates Cockrum Legion was pretty much Cockrum's baby. At least according to Cary.
Also, Bates' style is not one that holds up well over time. Even by the early 80s, his style seemed a bit long in the tooth.
Well he did operate under some heavy handed Editors on most of his assignments...but IMO, he was never particularly exiciting at dialogue.
But I'd say that's the shortcoming of Levitz as well...
I actually think Tony Bedard may have been the best dialogue guy to ever work on the book.
quote: I cannot see any significant numbers of Bates fans still lingering.
Geoff Johns is hanging around...
quote: He may have been okay in the day but he has not produced a body of work over time that has withstood the test of time. [/QB]
Which gives him a lot in common with the Post Crisis Legions.
Seriously though, he was a never a star, except for maybe a brief period during his Legion run.
To tell you the truth...he's extremely similar to Paul Levitz. He was viewd more or less as a DC Staff Writer or something...and the only time his name stood out was when when he was working on the Legion.
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Superboy: [qb] All that said...the Legion was DC's top selling book when he wrote it and you never know for sure what DC is up too, except that they are definitely trying to fix the Legion now...so he just might be coming back.
And BTW...if anyone could come up with a story that fixes every continuity error in the Legion...it'd be Cary Bates. He's extremely inventive.
I dont know that I agree with you there. Bates was pretty notorious for making mistakes with Legion history, so I don't want him handed the keys to the 31st century again. For example, during his run, he had Matter Eater Lad eat an energy beam, and he said Garth and Mekt were twins and Ayla was their younger sister. I know we should blame the editor for not catching these kinds of gaffes, but if the writer doesn't know it to begin with I'd say we have a problem.
Oh I'm not saying Cary is a master of Legion Continuity, like I said, he wasn't really a fan of the book. What I'm saying is that he's the guy that could come up with a working and inventive concept that could fix the continuity errors in the Legion if he was presented with that problem.
IOW, he'd probably have to be told what needed to be fixed, before he could fix it. But he does have that kind of creative mind...that comes up with good explanations.
quote: I was a fan of Cary's Flash and I really enjoyed Captain Atom, but I don't need him to visit the future again any time soon.
I never read his Flash...and while I am a huge fan of the era of the Legion he wrote...it has about 90% to do with Dave Cockrum and about 10% to do with Cary Bates.
At the same time...I don't feel his Legion run was a true indicator of his writing ability, as Murray Boltinoff was just as heavy handed and creatively constraining for him as he was for Shooter.
His Captain Atom work is what I rate as his best work as a writer IMO.
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: "new readers"
I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.
All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.
I agree with Jorge. DC could care less at this point about new readers, in the sense of those that have never picked up a comic before or at least a DC comic before. Their strategy for the past few years has been to try to get the current "hardcore DC fanbase" to feel they need to pick up as many titles in their line as possible. The Legion hasn't benefited from the current crossover/event craze, being isolated in the 31st century. But by connecting them to Superman and sticking Superboy-Prime in the series, they can make the case that the Legion is an important chapter in their ongoing 150-part crossover or whatever. As a marketing strategy it makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.
Ah well, that's a shame if that's the case, then. I admit I have no clue about the workings of the comic book industry. Trying to gain fresh readers in place of the declining number of established ones simply sounded logical - as well as potentially doable - from my perspective, since I've been that obviously near-mystical animal called "new reader" not so long ago.
Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: TMK was VERY successful, considering it was a Deluxe Format book, set completely outside chronology and featuring extremely intricate artwork with sometimes not a single punch inside. Oh, and lots and lots of dialogue and extra written material. Sales proved that. Sales only dropped significantly when Keith left the book. And that was due to very, very, very poor storytelling and rotating artists that lacked Jason Pierson or Stuart Immonen's classy style.
Without having any sales figures handy, I recall that sales were not that great after the honeymoon period with TMK. Sales consistently dipped even before Giffen jumped. It eventually got to the point where they didn't even match the "old, tired end" of the Levitz run. While I'm not a TMK "hater" (I don't really "hate" anything) the truth is that Giffen's monster experiment on the Legion ran out of gas - he constantly drew on the wealth of the Legion foundation, but added little, all the while maiming, disfiguring and killing favorite characters. The TMK Legion was unrecognizable from what previously existed, and that cost the title readers as much as any 'Deluxe Format' or other circumstances may have. That is completely why even the DC PTB eventually realized they needed to end the debacle while some remnants of a core readership remained. If sales were so great, that version would still be with us.
John's Action Legion respects and accentuates what has been a winning formula in the past. I don't believe sales have to double in Action for it to be deemed a success. If 5-10k LSHers crossover to pick up Action, and the reverse becomes true, then everyone would be happy.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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