quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: A funny story I’ve told on this board before is that when #16 came out, comic book fandom was OUTRAGED. I’m telling you, OUTRAGED. My father told me his friends all quit reading Avengers, half quiet reading all Marvel comics and some even quit reading comics! It amuses me to no end, knowing what spoiled internet comic book fan babies are out there, to know that in the mid-60’s that comic book fandom was outraged at the change of the line-up of the Avengers.
Omg, that's a great story. So Avengers has courted controversy almost from the very start? I love it!
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: the Power Man story where he’s punching Cap’s shield on the cover (“the Long Road Home” I think its called?)
Issue # 22, "The Road Back".
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Writing this was a lot of fun. Stealth, you rock for starting this thread
posted
Way back in the early 70's, I only had the odd reprint here and there... but getting the Masterworks in the late 80's finally allowed me to experience the early issues in a manner that made sense. The first 5 or 6 issues feel more like a "company-wide crossover mini-series" than anything else in the 60's. Suddenly, a separate comic featuring (more or less) ALL the "big guns" at the same time-- Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Giant-Man & Wasp (HUH?), Sub-Mariner, Captain America (where'd HE come from??) and of course #4 leads DIRECTLY into the 2-part FF-HULK story which features The Avengers. That last page of #4 where Rick wonders "What'll happen when The Hulk finds out?" made me think months probably went by... but NO! More like a couple days at most. For someone so anti-social doesn't it seem odd Hulk would get pissed that someone DOESN'T want to hang out with him anymore? (Or, maybe when you've only GOT one friend...) Kirby-Roussos did AVENGERS #4 and the 2 FF issues, but while in AVENGERS #4 it feels like every panel is a classic, the FF issues looked rushed and sloppy. (Yeah, I know George inked them over a weekend, but Jack's work on those 2 FF issues doesn't look inspired, either.)
Chic Stone-- WHOA! if only he'd been onboard from the beginning and inked the entire Kirby run. Can you imagine?
Stan slips up with his over-emphasis on "tight continuity" when, in the middle of a plane-flight (and between issues) Iron Man's armor changes completely. If you "read" the splash page of that issue without the naration or dialogue, it makes a lot more sense, as OBVIOUSLY there's at least one episode from TALES OF SUSPENSE that took place in the meantime. Noticing stuff like this when I re-read a pile of comics all in chronological sequence can be kinda funny.
The KANG story is one of my favorites, although Stone's SLICKNESS is replaced with Ayer's "real-world grittiness". When the group shows up for the emergency meeting on the splash page, it doesn't look like a cartoon anymore, instead, you feel you're watching a newsreal documentary. (This is really happening-- as you read it!) Somehow I managed to read Rama-Tut's cameo in a reprint of FF ANNUAL #2 shortly before reading a reprint of Kang's debut, so for once, even in the 70's, I got a small sense of that "continuity".
Incidentally, if you re-read the Doom-Tut scene in that annual, the DIALOGUE Stan wrote on JUST those few pages makes absolutely NO F***ing SENSE at all!!! I love Stan's work, but every so often he really slips a gear. Must be working 2 jobs (editor AND chief writer). Hey, even geniuses have "off" days. (The SAD thing is, every obsessive fanboy writer from Roy Thomas on down (but ESPECIALLY Roy, of course, he never lets anything go) KEEPS refering back to that one completely absurd conversation.)
While Kirby-Ayers packed a punch, Heck-Ayers really DRAGGED the book down, I'm afraid. When Ayers was replaced, the art really improved a hundredfold. Yes, Heck does "real world" real good, so him doing 4 "down-to-Earth" heroes was SORT of a good match. I'd love to see an original printing of that Heck-Romita issue some day. 2 artists FIGHTING for attention, and the results-- WOW!!! It's like Kirby-Wood on SKY MASTERS. Makes me wish Romita had stuck to his guns and done more INKING, instead of all the pain he says he went thru having to do layouts and pencils on SPIDER-MAN. (The biggest mis-matched WASTE of talent had to be the 8 months on ASM when they had Romita on layouts, HECK on pencils, and Esposito on inks. Had it been Heck on layouts, Romita on pencils, Espo on inks, or Heck on pencils & Romita on inks... WOW.)
Heck doing full art on Iron Man could be hit-and-miss, depending on the deadlines. I have almost every original issue, and they're SO much better-looking than reprints it's criminal. But on AVENGERS, full Heck art, to me, is just something that never should have been allowed. The book NEEDED a slicker finished look.
Something that really surprised me when I re-read Roy's debut on the book was just how MUCH his influences stood out. I forget which issues, but Roy did an entire story that feels like a Gardner Fox JLA epic! For 2 issues, it doesn't feel like Marvel at ALL!
It was pretty much hit-and-miss for a long time after that... I'll just finish by saying it struck me that MOMENT Roy FINALLY "got good"-- when the entire book suddenly felt "RIGHT"-- was the issue that introduced... The VISION. (Curse you, Stan Lee, for not leaving John Buscema alone and letting him do a long, unbroken run on THE AVENGERS!)
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: (Curse you, Stan Lee, for not leaving John Buscema alone and letting him do a long, unbroken run on THE AVENGERS!)
: )
I used to feel the same way, but then I realized that if things had happened that way, Buscema might have burned out on the book and never done his brilliant long 80s run with Roger Stern and Tom Palmer.
After months of bad inking from others, John Buscema picked up the brush himself and showed how to do it right. The opening pages of # 49 are absolutely stunning, the Olympian setting and Hercules' encounter with Typhon, the evil titan almost leaping off the page. Towards the end, the issue returns to this plot thread, which I find more engaging than the main plot thread involving Magneto using manipulations to get Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch back on his side. Then in issue # 50, the Hercules plot takes over the book and is jaw-droppingly powerful from start to finish. Hercules is very well-written here, a ferocious fighter who wins back his place among the gods by defeating Typhon. And when the readers are let into his private thoughts, it's one of my favorite Avengers panels: "Yet, in all the endless cosmos, mine eyes did ne'er behold warriors more valiant -- nor friends more faithful. In sooth, though I undertake a thousand thousan quests...though I try to drown my memories in the heady nectar of adventure...a part of Hercules shall ever be...an Avenger!"
In # 51, Thor and Iron Man are temporarily thrown together with Hawkeye, Goliath and Wasp thanks to the schemes of the Collector; Goliath saves the day by smashing the Collector's giant robot and wrecking the Collector's ship. Buscema is inked by Tuska here, yet the inks mostly recall Buscema's own style, and the book is so much the better for it. Buscema comes up with some amazing designs for the Collector's menagerie of otherworldly creatures.
Making a 180 degree turn, the inking in # 52 is by Colletta, who does one of his worst jobs I've ever seen (and that's saying a lot). Still, this issue is important as the Black Panther joins the Avengers and a new villain, the Grim Reaper (Wonder Man's crazy, vindictive brother) debuts.
# 53, a crossover with X-Men, finally resolves the dangling Magneto/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch thread, as Magneto's much-abused sidekick the Toad betrays him and lets him fall to his apparent death. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch flee with the Toad, not to be seen again for more than twenty issues. The story's average, but it's great to see Buscema draw the X-Men (even though Tuska's inking again, and this time he's just as bad as before).
And then...the Masters of Evil return, in a story that would be second only to Roger Stern's Masters of Evil story as the best story with the villainous team. # 54 and # 55 find the mysterious Crimson Cowl leading previous members Radioactive Man and Melter, and new members Klaw, Whirlwind, and the Black Knight (who only joins so that he can betray the villains to the Avengers). In a clever twist, it appears that the Cowl is the Avengers butler, Jarvis, but instead the Cowl is a creepy-looking robot named Ultron-5 (the panel of Ultron removing his hood and saying, "What makes you think that I am human?" never fails to scare me, no matter how many times I re-read this story). Art-wise, # 54 is, thankfully, Tuska's last Buscema issue; in # 55, the new inker is George Klein, a DC veteran distinguished for his inking over Curt Swan on Legion of Super-Heroes; Klein inking Buscema rivals Tom Palmer as the most perfect fit for Buscema -- Klein's smooth lines, liquid shadows and perfect balance of detail result in a feast for the eyes.
Next, in # 56, the Avengers help Captain America come to terms with Bucky's death by time-travelling with him to that fateful day in 1945. The story continues in Avengers Annual # 2, where they Avengers discover that history has been changed, and this reality's Avengers (the founding members) are pawn of the evil Scarlet Centurion; Thomas's script is powerful, but the art damages it severely -- Don Heck on breakdowns and Werner Roth on pencils and merely miscast, but Vince Colletta on inks is the nail in the coffin.
The cover to Avengers # 57 is one of the greatest of all time: a dark, atmospheric scene, colored in monochromatic red, of the Avengers dwarfed by a new creation -- as the lettering indicates, "Behold...the Vision!" Though the synthethic robot-man would become arguably the cornerstone of the Avengers, he debuts as a villain, but at the end redeems himself by destroying his creator: Ultron-5! The next issue cleared up the mystery of Ultron-5's creation (he was an experiment of Hank "Goliath" Pym's gone horribly wrong), and found the Vision inducted into the Avengers, proving, in its powerful final splash-page, that "even an android can cry."
Rounding out the "new" creations is the cocky costumed anti-hero Yellowjacket, introduced in # 59, at the end of which the Wasp shocks the other Avengers by agreeing to marry him. The marriage issue, # 60 (inked not by Klein but by Mike Esposito), allows Buscema to draw just about every Marvel superhero at the time, and has a more light-hearted tone (the Circus of Crime crashes the wedding) than the intensely dark last few issues. Yellowjacket turns out to be Hank Pym, who assumed a new personality after a lab accident. I'm generally not a fan other light-hearted superheroics, but this issue works for me.
And all of this happened in only one year's worth of issues! Roy Thomas continued to write the Avengers for a long time, but IMO was never more consistenly good in Avengers than issues # 49-60.
posted
OK, I know most of you aren't a fan of the "New Avengers" lineup but I suggest reading Power Pack/Avengers (which I coincidently bought the digest of today). It's got good humor and quite a bit of action.
-------------------- ActorLad
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Visit my official hangout ActorLad's Cool Luau over at the Mission Monitor Board!
From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
"I used to feel the same way, but then I realized that if things had happened that way, Buscema might have burned out on the book and never done his brilliant long 80s run with Roger Stern and Tom Palmer."
WHAAAAAAAT?
John Buscema HATED doing super-heroes! There was more than 10 years between his 2 runs. I suspect the reason he did the 2nd run was because CONAN had gone to hell...
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "I used to feel the same way, but then I realized that if things had happened that way, Buscema might have burned out on the book and never done his brilliant long 80s run with Roger Stern and Tom Palmer."
WHAAAAAAAT?
John Buscema HATED doing super-heroes! There was more than 10 years between his 2 runs. I suspect the reason he did the 2nd run was because CONAN had gone to hell...
I know he would always talk about how much he hated superheroes, but I take that with a grain of salt -- I suspect that, while he probably did hate working on most superhero books, he secretly enjoyed drawing Avengers. Maybe it was the challenge of the group scenes, maybe it was the quality of the scripts (notice that after Stern was fired, Buscema only stayed on a little over one year), maybe it was a little of both.
posted
It still amazes me to think how long Roger Stern did manage to stay on the book, considering the problems the series had after Englehart left Marvel (than YOU, Gerry Conway!). It seemed from the moment Stern came aboard, things settled down on both the writing and art fronts, and they even had a steady, stable art team for the first time in ages. That team, of course, moved over to WEST COAST AVENGERS, but who could have envisioned "the" classic team of the late 60's returning, and for a LONGER and more stable run the 2nd time out? It put a really black mark in my book as far as Mark Gruenwald is concerned when he let his ego get in the way of simply doing his job and letting the WRITERS do their's. (The parallel with what happened on GREEN LANTERN a few years later is inescapable...)
Registered: Aug 2003
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This is definitely one of the best eras ever in the Avengers. One of the cool aspects of it was the transitional feel to a group of issues where Quicksilver and Wanda make their exit, Hercules has his own adventurous exit and the Black Panther shows up, all coupled with Goliath not being able to grow anymore, only shrink for a few issues. It makes for one funny scene where Hawkeye jokes about how between the three active Avengers, there’s only an archer and two super-heroes who can shrink—not exactly the World’s Mightiest Heroes. And then in one issue Goliath’s powers are restored and the Black Panther joins (via a last page panel), coupled with a great guest appearance by Iron Man and Thor, two of Marvel’s biggest stars and ‘the old guard’ of Avengers.
The Black Panther is one of my favorite Marvel heroes, and the Grim Reaper is one of my favorite Marvel villains, so the next issue is one of my favorites. At this point every single person in the series, whether hero, supporting character or villain is fun to read.
The Masters of Evil story is one of the best Avengers stories ever, and does so much in terms of character advancement and story-telling. We see the Black Knight in all his glory and see why for decades and decades certain writers and artists have had a soft spot for him. Great scenes with Jarvis and the Panther showing his metal. We also pick back up the plot that Whirlwind is posing as the Wasp’s chauffer which is a pretty creepy subplot in and of itself. At this point in Avengers history, the truest ‘cornerstone Avengers’ where definitely Hank & Jan and Hawkeye and that is seen so well here. The Masters of Evil themselves are really great, with the return of former Masters Radioactive Man and the Melter and the addition of Klaw, a great Silver Age Marvel villain, and Whirlwind. The Crimson Cowl twist is excellent and the addition of Ultron to the Avenger’s mythos sparks the beginning of the Avengers other great nemesis (the first being Kang IMO).
The Vision story is so classic that you can’t help but love it. The Vision is definitely the cornerstone of the Avengers in later years as you say Stealth, which will later be evidenced by him appearing on all the covers in the upper left hand corner by the logo. He’s such a dynamic character and just fits so perfectly into the ‘Marvel style’. I love the issue where Cap, Iron Man and Thor stop by to figure out his origin with them, making it such a jam-packed cool issue, and the final panel is perhaps tied for Marvel’s most famous panel in its entire history—‘Even an Android can cry’ and ‘face it tiger—you just hit the jackpot’ are probably the most recognizable.
Although the change to Yellowjacket is not one I’m found of, I don’t mind it *too* much. I prefer Goliath as the codename/costume that Hank Pym should be in, and the change to Yellowjacket marks the beginning of years and years of writers referring to Hank Pym’s personality problems, etc. Even though his creating Ultron was a few issues before, this really does it. Still, the wedding issue is fun, and seeing all the heroes together is great.
Looking forward to more reviews. I always enjoyed the next two issues that take place when Jan and Hank are on their honey-moon, especially the one with Dr. Strange and the Black Knight.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
This period in Avengers history seems to me like an early example of "breaking something down in order to build it up again" syndrome. It works here, though. With most of the lineup out of the picture, it makes it easier to spotlight the newcomers.
posted
This was a fun time to be an Avengers fan. Great stories and lots of great interaction among the members. I always liked Black Panther and the Black Knight as well and Hawkeye was always a favorite (as were Black Widow and the Swordsman who would come along shortly)
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: It put a really black mark in my book as far as Mark Gruenwald is concerned when he let his ego get in the way of simply doing his job and letting the WRITERS do their's. (The parallel with what happened on GREEN LANTERN a few years later is inescapable...)
How did the Green Lantern feud play itself out, and who were the writer and editor involved?
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Although the change to Yellowjacket is not one I’m found of, I don’t mind it *too* much. I prefer Goliath as the codename/costume that Hank Pym should be in, and the change to Yellowjacket marks the beginning of years and years of writers referring to Hank Pym’s personality problems, etc. Even though his creating Ultron was a few issues before, this really does it.
I think Englehart, in the one Yellowjacket story he was able to write before he quit Avengers, had a good handle on Hank, and if he had stayed he would have found a way to make Yellowjacket work. Claremont wrote both Yellowjacket and Wasp very well in Marvel Team-Up. It's really Shooter's fault for hijacking the character and using him to deal with his own demons (IMO, Shooter is the godfather of the Chuck Austen school of superhero writing). Gruenwald made things even worse when he ordered Englehart to turn Hank into the WCA's non-superpowered mascot. Stern's morally ambiguous female Yellowjacket II had the potential to develop into yet another reformed villain if only Stern hadn't been fired from Avengers and black-balled at Marvel for almost 10 years. Harras did a fantastic job of bringing Hank back to superheroics as Giant-Man (the Avengers had a major crisis and needed all the help they could get, so Hank suited up and drank down the giant juice -- simple but brilliant). But when Busiek put the character through an endless series of contortions to bring him back to Yellowjacket, it only proved that Yellowjacket's moment had passed. In an Englehart chat I participated in last year, he said that a few years ago, he submitted a proposal to Marvel for a mini-series that would have given Hank a brand-new superhero identity. Marvel, in their "infinite wisdom" (HA HA) never even responded. I'm holding out for Hank to survive Civil War and to eventually -- finally -- have his day of glory.
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner: This period in Avengers history seems to me like an early example of "breaking something down in order to build it up again" syndrome. It works here, though.
It's sad that none of the young-ish hot-shot writers of today seem to have a clue on how to do it right.
With Janet and Hank on their honeymoon, the remaining three members -- Vision, Black Panther, and Hawkeye -- spent their time helping Dr. Strange battle the forces of nature (literally) in # 61 and foil an attempted coup in the Panther's kingdom of Wakanda in # 62. These would be John Buscema's last issues for a year, and sadly they would also be the last time Buscema was inked by Klein, who died not long after.
In # 63, Thomas brought back Janet and Hank, but the focus of the new story arc was squarely on Hawkeye, who decided that the team needed muscle and he should be it -- so he became Goliath II. IMO, this was one of the worst decisions Thomas ever made, because it completely took away the character's everyman appeal. But that's only one reason I'm not fond of this story -- there's also the matter of Gene Colan's art (he was perfect for Dr. Strange, but completely wrong for Avengers).
The next story (# 66-68) was better -- Vision was revealed to have a pre-programmed command to rebuild his evil creator into Ultron-6. The first two parts were drawn by Barry Windsor-Smith, and as heavy as the Kirby and Steranko influences are, I personally like this early work much better than his more celebrated art of the 1970s (I do like the X-Men stories that he did in the 1980s). The artist on the finale (who would also draw the next four issues) was Sal Buscema, younger brother of John Buscema. Sal lacked John's draftsmanship and was better at drawing monsters than people; his real strength was energetic storytelling, but that showed up more in later work, such as Defenders and Hulk.
Thomas then came up with one of his most epic stories (# 69-71), as the Avengers became caught up in a time-space adventure involving Kang and a new villain, the Grandmaster. The story heavily featured the Black Knight, which is always good.
I don't much care for most of the stories that followed -- after introducing Zodiac (one of my least favorite villain teams), Thomas pulled a Denny O'Neil and started addressing "relevant topics" such as racism, feminism, and others. Still later, he introduced the Squadron Supreme, and my opinion of Marvel's JLA analogs is the opposite of my opinion of Marvel's LSH analogs, the Imperial Guard (in other words, I don't like them). The only issues between # 72 and # 87 that I like are # 75, # 76, and # 84 -- all three featuring Arkon, the interdimensional barbarian warlord. Thomas & John Buscema always had a flair for this sort of character. As added bonuses, # 75-76 bring back Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, while # 84 features the Black Knight and has my favorite Avengers appearance of the Enchantress.
# 88, a Hulk crossover co-plotted by SF writer Harlan Ellison, was a step back in the right direction. But Thomas was just getting his second wind, and the real event was just around the corner -- the Kree-Skrull War!
I wonder if that is why half the team on his 2nd run looked like Conan characters?
Hercules, Namor, and the Black Knight. And then Thor ofcourse. And also one of my favorite arcs (if not my fave) Assault on Olympus. There was like 2 or 3 costumed superheroes in that...the rest seemed to be out of a sword & sorcery type book.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: Re: Buscema hating doing superheroes.
I wonder if that is why half the team on his 2nd run looked like Conan characters?
Hercules, Namor, and the Black Knight. And then Thor ofcourse. And also one of my favorite arcs (if not my fave) Assault on Olympus. There was like 2 or 3 costumed superheroes in that...the rest seemed to be out of a sword & sorcery type book.
Assault on Olympus is a favorite of mine, too. The art doesn't remind me of sword & sorcery, though. I think it suggests what Wonder Woman's book might have looked like if John Buscema had ever drawn it -- Athena herself looks like Wonder Woman in battle armor. (Buscema actually did draw Wonder Woman once, when she guest-starred in the second Spider-Man/Superman crossover.)
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