posted
First of all, credit where it's due: this thread is inspired by Cobalt Kid's wonderful The All Spider-Man Thread.
I have more issues of Avengers than any other comic in my collection. That's because I believe that, for its first 30 years at least, no comic succeeded like Avengers in re-inventing itself into something more exciting and innovative each time. Which isn't to say that there weren't long stretches of mediocre stories in between the brilliant runs, but that only makes the brilliant runs shine even brighter (although there are certain issues I refuse to read on principle). There's also the way in which the book was blessed by one excellent artist after another, from John Buscema to Dave Cockrum to George Perez to John Byrne to Steve Epting; often the art kept the book (barely) afloat when the writing wasn't good -- and opinons differ considerably about when the writing was good and when it wasn't. Avengers may not be the most successful or the most well-known team book of all time, but in terms of a rich creative legacy and epic scope of mythos, Avengers is IMO untouchable.
But here is where I must admit that I'm not particularly pleased with the past 12 years of Avengers permutations. Avengers Volume One ended badly thanks to Marvel's catering to the speculator's market; Volume Two, the year-long Heroes Reborn phase, I've never even read and never intend to; Volume Three either revitalized the book or turned it into a sad oldies revue, depending on who you ask, and I'm of the latter opinion; Ultimates is wildly popular, but not to my taste; New Avengers is a travesty that would be pitiful rather than frustrating, if only it wasn't so commerically successful. Ironically, I do see some hope in the recent announcement that there will be a second Avengers comic by the same writer; this seems to me like it's all of a piece with the hubris that Marvel has been showing lately with their Civil War delays, etc. I think critical mass is fast approaching, and when the smoke clears, the current editor-in-chief and his pet writers will be nothing more than a bad memory. Then Avengers will evolve yet again, hopefully into something better.
No matter what happens from here, I'm still proud to say that I love Avengers, because it's greatest moments transcend the inevitable peaks and valleys of a comic that has run, in one form or another, for over forty years.
In this thread, I'll be posting reviews of each Avengers phase whose issues I own, but more than anything, I want to hear from other Avengers fans.
So the only thing left to say is -- Avengers fans assemble!!
posted
Great, great idea for a thread Stealth! I've often thought of a similar thread for the Avengers because of our past conversations and am thrilled that you'll be doing reviews of Avenger's periods!
Can't wait to read them and I will definately be participating! Avengers is one of those rare comic book runs where I actually have read every single issue of the Avengers ever published--in the exact order from #1 - onwards.
Avengers fans assemble indeed! Can't wait to see more of your posts and other Avenger's fans participating.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I've been an Avengers fan for 30 years, and am greatly hoping that one day Marvel will start printing Avengers comics again
-------------------- Some people are like slinkys: not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you knock them down a flight of stairs
From: Penthouse atop Levitz Hall, LMBP Plaza, Embassy Row, Legion World | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
As with almost everything else in the Marvel Universe, my first glimpse of The Avengers in comics was in FF ANNUAL #3. Quicksilver took out The Human Top, Captain America took on The Cobra, Mr. Hyde and The Enchantress, Iron Man tackled The Mad Thinker's Android. If memory serves, my NEXT exposure to the group was in NOT BRAND ECCH #11, the story "King Konk '68". The most memorable moment was the full-page action shot where Konk has reached the top of the Empire State Building. Elsewhere, in the background, we see Giant-Man, who says... "And some nut told me Konk was climbin' the CHRYSLER Building! Ever since I lost my own series, I get nothing but bum steers."
The 1st issue of THE AVENGERS I actually got ahold of was #79-- "Lo! The Lethal Legion!" I finally got to see a "real" story featuring some of that characters from NBE, like The Vision. This issue was a mind-blower-- it was my 1st exposure to John Buscema AND Tom Palmer! WHOA!!! Recently, while buying the ESSENTIAL books to fill the huge, gaping holes in my collection, I was finally able to read thru this entire era. What a surprise to find that John MISSED so many issues (apparently, because Stan kept yanking him away to do other things). This particular issue struck me as somehow MUCH better than those that surrounded it-- or could that just be familiarity and "nostalgia" coloring my views? Anyway, what a place to drop in (if only for one issue). 5 super-villains I'd never laid eyes on, several Avengers, and everything played so DEADLY "straight" and serious (let's face it, Roy's better off when he's not trying to have a sense of humor).
But the comic that really made me an Avengers fan was AVENGERS ANNUAL #3-- which reprinted "Captain America Joins The Avengers!" If the Thomas-Buscema issue seemed like it almost took place in an alternate universe from the other Marvels I'd read, this looked like the real thing. And what a GREAT place to drop in! I still barely had any inkling of who Captain America was, so this story was perhaps the BEST-possible intro. I think I've read it at least a dozen times over the years. Looking back, it seems to me the inks tried to MURDER the artwork (George Roussos doing Stan a favor by inking an entire book over the weekend for half-rates), but Jack Kirby must have been REALLY inspired. EVERY panel feels like a pin-up! This story really introduced me to Iron Man, Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Cap, and was my 1st view of Rick Jones. I'd seen Sub-Mariner before, but he was much more a villain here than in the reprint of FF #6.
The "back-up" reprints consisted of 3 consecutive Captain America episodes from TALES OF SUSPENSE #66-68, starting off with what these days I consider one of the GREATEST of all Cap stories from TOS-- "The Fantastic Origin Of The Red Skull!" Kirby & Chic Stone remain in my eyes one of the greatest art teams ever, and perhaps never better than here. (When I re-read the story recently, I loved it so much I wound up scanning EVERY PAGE of it into my computer for easy future reference!) The other 2 episodes were not quite as good, if only because of different inks (Frank Giacoia got the credit, but I suspect, based on a recent interview, that Joe Giella did a LOT of the work on those. They don't really look the same as a lot of other Giacoia ink jobs.)
It took quite a while for me to get into buying THE AVENGERS regularly, and the quality of the book was seriously up and down (often down and down) but these earliest encounters will always have a special place in my comics-loving heart.
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Yeah Stealth the New Avengers line up and the constant air of conspiracy isn't doing it for me either and I generally like BMB's writing.
Here's hoping that Mighty Avengers will be more what I'm looking for. I'm a little wary though because it looks sort of like the two Avengers books' line ups are divided by their stand in Civil War.
At least it'll have Frank Cho drawing Ms. Marvel.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Avengers is one of those titles I always keep an eye on to see if the current incarnation is something I want to pick up. I loved the team back in the day when Buscema and Perez was on the book. I've popped in and out since then (especially Busiek's run) and while I like the "New Avengers", I'm eagerly awaiting the new New Avengers and "the Mighty Avengers"
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Avengers is my first love. Legion is a close second.
I've been a huge fan since about age 6 of the Avengers.
Stealth is right I can't think of any other book that has had so many good runs. Lee/Kirby, Lee/Ditko (and now the really good stuff) Thomas/Buscema, Thomas/Adams, Engleheart/Perez, Stern/Buscema, Harras/Eptig, Busiek/Perez.
Heck even in the medicore periods we got good stuff it just wasn't consistent. Guys like Shooter, Michelene, Steven Grant, Byrne, etc.
My fave run is Stern/Buscema. As for Busiek/Perez? I loved it but it did seem too old school.
I was waiting for them to reinvent themselves yet again. New Avengers wasn't it!
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Love the Avengers-- though perhaps not as much as others here. It's definitely up to who is on the team. That's true of other team books, too-- LSH, JLA, JSA, Titans, X-Men-- but *those* teams have never had a period when there wasn't at least one character that I really liked/was curious about/saw great potential in. The Avengers have had such periods, as I'm not a huge fan of Cap or Iron Man (though I'm liking the former more and more as I get older, for some reason-- and the latter less and less).
I began reading AVENGERS during the Mantis/Vision/Scarlet Witch/Swordsman period, which was a great time to get hooked. Marvel printed quite a few reprints during the 70's (as did DC) and I really think that that cemented my interest in this title, as well as FANTASTIC FOUR and X-MEN. (LSH, JUSTICE LEAGUE, SUPERMAN and BATMAN families for DC).
From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
That's Lee/DON HECK (not Ditko)!!! (Some guys get no respect...)
Sad story about Don Heck-- Don took time off from the regular book to do the 1st ANNUAL. While he was at it, Roy got John Buscema to "fill in". But then, Roy liked Buscema so much, he made him the regular artist, pushing Heck aside, at which point Don kept moving from series to series to series without a steady home. In recent years, Roy admitted that HE was part of a problem he himself has lamented about editors in the years since-- shoving aside the older artists in favor of the "hot" new guys. (I know, hard to think of Buscema that way, but still...)
I loved Don's work on AVENGERS when inked by Wally Wood, John Romita (ONE glorious issue!!!) and Frank Giacoia. Dick Ayers-- EHH! Don himself-- DOUBLE-EHH! (But that's me...)
Englehart-Perez only lasted about 6 months! Steve Englehart's entire run is pretty fantastic, although he went through virtually an ARMY of artists of varying talents-- Buscema, Buckler, Cockrum, Heck, Brown, Esposito, Sal Buscema, Joe Staton, Tuska, Colletta, Tartaglione (GAG!!), Perez, Grainger...
And to think, Steve might have stuck around a LOT longer, if it hadn't been for Gerry Conway being such a colossal pain during his absurdly-brief run as editor.
George had a long run on the book... but it was CONSTANTLY being interrupted by months and months of fill-ins, over and over again, due to George's habit of working on 4 projects at the same time and blowing deadlines on ALL of them. It eventually led to his being fired, and when he landed at DC, he "fixed" his problem. (Witness his LONNNNNNNNG, almost-unbroken run on THE NEW TEEN TITANS.) I liked Perez' on FANTASTIC FOUR, but always felt he was born to draw THE AVENGERS, of all the books he ever did. Imagine if he'd been able to do what Buscema-Palmer did in the 80's...!!! (I never realized that in the late 60's, John Buscema was MISSING from SO MANY issues-- because Stan kept yanking him off the book to do other projects, making a farce of the fact that Don Heck had been pushed off the book to make room for Buscema!)
Registered: Aug 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
I was a big fan of Busiek's recent run, recapturing some of my favorite themes (although for me, it will never be a true Avengers team without Wonder Man and the Beast playing Ted and Booster).
Right now the only remotely decent Avengers book out is Young Avengers, IMO. This current Wolverine / Ronin / Sentry / Spider-Woman / Luke Cage / Spider-Man line-up just doesn't cut it. A potentially interesting team that could be called 'Iron Man and his dysfunctional super-friends?' Perhaps. Avengers? Not even close.
I end up liking secondary 'Lower Decks' characters more than core members, it seems, no matter the group. While I love the Legion, I also have a serious love for the Subs and Cadet trainees as well, and wish we could have seen more of them.
With the Avengers, I find myself wanting to see more of characters like USAgent, Stingray, Moondragon, Tigra, Living Lightning, She-Hulk, the Beast, Silverclaw, etc. and less of Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc.
Of those considered founding members, Pym (whatever the heck super-name he's using this week) and the Wasp are my favorites, with the Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye being the next two in line from the second line-up. (Sadly Wanda has been mangled beyond recognition, and I don't think is really recoverable, as a character.)
I didn't realize until I got older how unique it was for the Wasp to be constantly changing costumes, because she was written as a character, and not as an iconic property. Spider-Man and Superman can't ever make a permanant change to their costume. No matter how many times they try, it always 'reboots' back to the 'classic' look, because they've ceased becoming living growing characters and become brands, and changing their look is screwing with their brand identity or some such garbage. They've become so successful, with quarterly earnings reports and many people's jobs tied to them, that meaningful stories really can't be written about them, IMO.
Hank Pym gets my respect for not only pulling a Brainiac 5 and constantly accidentally creating villains for the team to fight, but also being the incidental origin for a half-dozen or more heroes! Two different other Ant-Men have existed, one other Giant-Man, a Black Goliath, Atlas, Stature, Jocasta, Victor Mancha (of the Runaways) and Yellowjacket II are all heroes derived from his research (or created by Ultron, whom he created).
If only Brainy could pump out a half-dozen heroes for every Computo!
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
prof, my bad on Heck. I always get him and Ditko confused.
And yeah while I know Engleheart/Perez only did six issues...I mentioned them anyways.
While it was erratic that run with so many different writers and artists...is a fave of mine. I think while it seemed a bit(I don't know) generic it really captured what the Avengers were about.
Those Perez Grim Reaper-AntMan-Ultron covers. Then the Byrne issues. Yeah I love that era. Heck I'm even a big fan of...Bloodhawk. heh.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Set, Young Avengers is certainly THE Avengers now.
Also West Coast Avengers was excellent (until Roy Thomas that is). I noticed you've mentioned quite a few characters from WCA/AWC.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Great thread, Stealth, and a great opportunity to explore why/why not to like the Avengers.
I've always preferred DC characters to Marvel characters, mainly because of the influence that DC's truly iconic heroes have on the entire DCU. When you manage to make iconic characters interesting, you've really accomplished something. But, even you when an icon's own books aren't that great, his/her interraction with "second tier" characters can still be great. That is what the Legion is to me, in many respects--Kids from the future literally yearning and learning how to be Superman, with Superman/Boy/Girl often there for mentoring and/or reality check. Same goes for JLA and JSA. The icons are the inspirations and the other characters are there for development and enrichment, since there is only so much you can do to the icons before they lose their iconness.
To me, Avengers was always about the icon, Captain America, mentoring a group of non-iconic heroes, whether they were big guns (Iron Man, Thor) or wonderful supporting cast (Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye). It's like you transported a DC-type icon character into the iconoclastic Marvel universe and watch the fireworks ensue.
None of Marvel's few other true icons (Spiderman, the Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Namor, Hulk, Wolverine, Phoenix, Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer) really work in the Avengers or have no reason to since they are already part of a team. Yes, I know Spidey and Wolvie have been put in New Avengers. I just think it's inappropriate and/or redundant.
I really liked the Avengers because of their atmosphere as both stylish and swanky but also rogueish. Many of the best characters -- Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Vision, Wonder Man -- were bad guys. It was like you had a reform school on 5th Avenue. I guess that was a very 60s/70s thing, the stylish, jet-setting, heroic anti-hero, with Captain America always there to keep a lid on the antisocial tendencies. Like the 1970s JLA, the JSA and the Legion, the Avengers were the place the B-list characters went to shine and gain respectability by saving the world.
It's funny, because I think Bendis feels this way too, but New Avengers just hasn't worked, even when their are aspects about it that are really, really good. Maybe all the SHIELD/Civil War stuff has hampered it. I don't know. But if I compare and contrast the following, I begin to see the problem:
Batman is a loner, even though he has partners/surrogates/agents, etc. But, he is committed to the JLA because 1) he doesn't want them out of control and 2) he knows they need his intellect, his resources, his detective skills and 3) he leverages his talents to benefit the world on a massive scale, more than he could do solely by himself. And, he is conscious of all this. He makes the bargain, even though he is not really a joiner.
Contrast with Spidey in the New Avengers. Why is he there, really, other than the fact that he coincidentally needed a home and Iron Man wanted to exploit him? He is a very smart fellow, science-wise, but he's certainly no Richards or Pym, or even Stark, by his own admission. So, why is he on the team? Same with Wolvie. He's an X-Man out of loyalty, gratitude and even love, even though he's a thoroughly irrascible old curmudgeon. None of that applies to the Avengers.
I've gone on too long, and I suspect I'm bitching to the choir about New Avengers. The Old Avengers were always at their best pressing the boundaries and opening new horizons in superhero books, from Black Panter to Vision to Kree/Skrull War to Mantis/Cosmic Madonna to Thanos/Captain Marvel/Warlock to Hank Pym's breakdown. And, they had a LOT of fun along the way, thanks to Hawkeye, Beast, Hercules, Tigra, Sersi, She-Hulk, Eros, Wasp, Jarvis, and lot's of others I have unjustly forgotten.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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As much as I love Avengers, I've always felt that the first 48 issues are mostly setup for better things to come.
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby, the Marvel Universe's founding fathers, did the first 8 issues and shortly after did three more before Kirby left for good after #16. The stories are fun in that early/mid-Silver Age way, but I don't think they compare to Lee & Kirby's cosmic/mythical epics in Fantastic Four and Thor circa 1966-68. On the other hand, there's no denying the academic value of their Avengers issues: the first Avengers lineup (Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man/Giant-Man, Wasp, Hulk); the first superhero team to have a member (the Hulk) quit after only 2 issues, then come back quickly as a villain (alongside the morally ambiguous Sub-Mariner); the return of Captain America, the explanation of his dissapearance, his vendetta against the original Baron Zemo, who killed Cap's WWII sidekick Bucky, the final battle between the two, with Zemo accidentally killing himself; the original Masters of Evil (Zemo I, Radioactive Man, Melter, Black Knight II); Asgardian villainess the Enchantress bringing her schemes to the world of mortals; the first appearance of Kang; and finally, "The Old Order Changeth", establishing a uniquely fluid membership in the Avengers as all the remaning fouding members exit the team, leaving Captain America and three reformed villains (Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Hawkeye).
The next creative team, Lee & Don Heck, were no slouches themselves, although their stories were more hit-and-miss. But they introduced Wonder Man, Immortus, Count Nefaria, Swordsman I, and Power Man I (later Goliath III, and still later Atlas). Plus they brought the Black Widow into the Avengers' circle, and they showed us the first glimpse of Kang's future world. The latter is, IMO, the best Avengers story Lee ever wrote -- not only is it the first Avengers story with a scope befitting a superhero team, it also brings out surprising shades of grey in Kang. The first of these two issues -- # 23 -- is gorgeously inked by John Romita (one of the prides of my collection is an original-printing copy of # 23 with Romita's autograph; it's the earliest original-printing copy Avengers issue I have). Regarding Heck's art, I feel that he was much better suited to more down-to-earth material, such as Iron Man's solo adventures. While Heck's work could be very attractive with the right kind of inker, he never quite developed the larger-than-life dynamics and the flair for group scenes that were absolutely essential for Avengers.
Lee left the book halfway through his last story (#34-35), with Roy Thomas scripting the second half over Lee's plot. Thomas did not exactly hit the ground running on Avengers -- the first story he fully plotted himself turned out to be the first and last appearance of a forgettable race of alien androids named the Ultroids. Then, in # 38, Thomas turned around and came up with a very good issue, with Hercules making his entrance into the Avengers circle (albeit under the manipulations of the Enchantress, which resulted in his father Zeus exiling him to Earth). Thomas did not come up with anything as good for a while, and it didn't help that Heck's work was looking increasingly tired and sloppy. Heck's last issue as regular penciler was # 40, although he made several brief returns over the next several years, including Avengers Annual # 1, a fast-moving but overcrowded romp written by Thomas and featuring almost every Avenger to date.
Big John Buscema, the artist who succeeded Heck, did have the dynamics and the flair for group scenes -- and how! Even though his first few issues had their awkward moments (he was, after all, still adjusting to the superhero genre) and bad inking (from the likes of George Roussos, Vince Colletta, and George Tuska), there were still extremely impressive moments -- the full-page splash in # 43 of Hercules hallucinating the mythical many-headed monster Hydra; the cover of # 44, with Buscema's peerless choreography of a crowded battle. And from the start, Buscema drew better faces than any Marvel artist of his generation (with John Romita a close second).
But Thomas still hadn't quite hit his stride. Things picked up somewhat in #47, although the main plot, involving Magneto, was far less interesting than the subplots -- one involving Hercules returning to Olympus to find it deserted, the other involving Thomas's first significant creation in the pages of Avengers: Dane Whitman, scientist nephew of the villainous Black Knight II, who made a promise on his uncle's deathbed to redeem the name of the Black Knight. In #48, Dane made his debut as Black Knight III; unfortunately, the story was blandly drawn by George Tuska. The good news is that John Buscema used this one-issue break to do both pencils and inks on issues # 49 and # 50. And that, IMO, is where the Avengers got really good. Much more on that in my next review.
posted
Stealth, I’m going to follow along and post some of my own thoughts of the Avengers over the years, although probably less detailed than your own. Funny story: the first comics I ever read as a kid were original copies of Avengers #1-16 (my Dad has a duplicate run of Avengers #1-60). So I really started at the beginning. And I loved it. In brief:
Please note, I love ALL eras of the Avengers (almost), so most criticisms are slightly tongue in cheek Avengers #1-16 To me, this is sacrosanct, and that’s a feeling I’ve inherited from my Dad. But these comics are beyond brilliant and showcase Silver Age Marvel at its best. The sense of wonder and awe is so potent that I feel its never been recreated ever since. Everything is beautiful, from the villains to the art to the covers to the camaraderie (Iron Man calling Hank “High Pockets”, etc.). The early Masters of Evil stories were totally awesome. Cap’s return and the powerful Stan Lee moments of his being a man out of time and still reeling from Bucky’s death are emotional boxing matches. The Hulk and the Sub-Mariner in the very early issues are just so damn perfect. My father still thinks after all these years that the Avengers line-up should be Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man and the Wasp. I prefer that all five, or most of them ALWAYS be in an Avengers line-up.
Avengers #16-30: Cap’s Cooky Quartet A funny story I’ve told on this board before is that when #16 came out, comic book fandom was OUTRAGED. I’m telling you, OUTRAGED. My father told me his friends all quit reading Avengers, half quiet reading all Marvel comics and some even quit reading comics! It amuses me to no end, knowing what spoiled internet comic book fan babies are out there, to know that in the mid-60’s that comic book fandom was outraged at the change of the line-up of the Avengers. A couple of second stringer villains? Of course, as the years have gone on, I’ve grown to love Hawkeye, Wanda and Pietro to the point where they too are my favorites and I grow angry at even thinking of their treatment in recent years. It wasn’t until the Kang story that Stealth mentions and the Power Man story where he’s punching Cap’s shield on the cover (“the Long Road Home” I think its called?) that this began to feel like the Avengers. And little by little it did, and Wanda and Pietro shined, and Hawkeye became a star, and his and Cap’s banter was plain fun to read. BTW, Stealth that’s awesome to have that story signed!
Avengers #30 - #49 What saved Avengers fandom in the mid to late 60’s according to my Dad, then a wee lad, was the return of Giant-Man, now known as Goliath! Seeing the Wasp on the cover of #28 and then Hank’s AWESOME return in #30 as Goliath really marked a turning point in getting this back to being ‘The Avengers’. Following that were some great stories, and although sometimes the main stories or art suffered, the subplots are what made this run such a classic Marvel run. Goliath was definitely the star now, and Hawkeye was a close second and things continued to pick up with Herc joining, Bill Foster being part of the cast (one of my all-time favorite Marvel supporting characters), the Black Widow and some interesting villains (Living Laser, Whirlwind, etc.). And then once again the team began to change, and in a very good way. The Black Knight is by far one of my favorite Marvel heroes of all, and he was welcome here. And the way the exited Hercules, Cap, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver was done really well, in a way leaving them open for future stories.
I agree that at this point, the Avengers got really, really good. In fact, this coming up is one of my favorite Avengers periods ever, if not my absolute favorite. John Buscema’s artwork was phenomenal and at this point Roy Thomas came into his own. If #1-16 was the golden age of great Avengers stories, at this point we are on the cusp of its Silver Age with the Buscema giving us the best artwork since Kirby and Thomas channeling everything good about Stan’s Silver Age Marvel.
Writing this was a lot of fun. Stealth, you rock for starting this thread My insight will be less wordy in future eras, but I know #1 – 100 very well as I spent many a night in my comic book basement as an Avengers-reading wee lad.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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My insight will be less wordy in future eras, but I know #1 – 100 very well as I spent many a night in my comic book basement as an Avengers-reading wee lad.
